The Science of Fitness Podcast

Inside DEXA, VO2 Max, And Longevity Testing - Measure Up’s CEO

• Science of Fitness

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 47:32

We speak with Sasha Levitt, CEO of Measure Up, about using DEXA, VO2 max, and strength metrics to turn health goals into a clear, personalised plan while expanding nationwide bone density screening to prevent life-altering fractures. We challenge BMI, unpack the economics of prevention, and show how simple, accurate testing boosts motivation and long-term habit change.

• What DEXA measures versus calipers and impedance
• National rollout of mobile bone density “bone buses”
• Osteoporosis risk, fractures, and mortality data
• Early screening benefits and Medicare gaps
• Why insurers should move beyond BMI
• Turning baselines into training and nutrition changes
• VO2 max as engine, DEXA as chassis, strength as function
• Grip strength and mid-thigh pull for longevity
• How to start without overwhelm and avoid burnout
• Upcoming lactate threshold testing and Zone 2 clarity

Be sure to check us out across all forms of social media and subscribe to this channel if you want to stay up to date to the latest episodes and any other anecdotes with which we might share across these video platforms
If you ever find yourself locally in Brisbane, be sure to drop into one of our facilities or down on the Gold Coast in Burley
You can also check us out at scienceoffitness.com.au and see all things relating to what we offer in programming and performance, whether it's online or in person


Welcome And Sponsor Intro

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the Science of Fitness Podcast, where we aim to inspire you to live a more healthy and fulfilling life as we share evidence and anecdotes on all things relating to health, performance, business, and wellness. This episode is brought to you by TH7. TH7 is Australia's leading wellness and recovery clinic network, redefining how people integrate recovery, performance, and longevity into everyday life. Founded in Brisbane, they deliver science-backed recovery protocols using world-class equipment, including contrast pools, saunas, red light therapy, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, steam rooms, and compression. With six clinics across Southeast Queensland, they support everyday individuals, athletes, and busy professionals to recover smarter and perform at their best. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Science of Fitness podcast. Today I've got Sasha Levitt from Measure Up on the podcast. Sasha, welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Kieran. Great to be here. Mate, thank you very much for your time. I'm excited about this one. You are the CEO of Lever uh Measure Up. Um, how long have you been in that role?

SPEAKER_00

I've been in that role since we uh kicked off, and we kicked off in 2009. Um we didn't actually officially start operating till I guess 2010 because we spent about nine months working on our uh business plan, um and also you know, stuff like branding. Um yeah, we really wanted to uh do this thing correctly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, fantastic. Um to summarize it as briefly as possible, what is measure up?

SPEAKER_00

What do you guys do? Uh measure up um is exactly what exactly what it says. We're a measuring service, a very accurate measuring service. Um we have two sides of the business. We have a medical side um that uh predominantly is operated via uh 19, we call them bone buses, um, which go all around Australia uh scanning people for osteoporosis. Um we uh are nationwide, um and um to my knowledge, um we are the largest private provider of DEXA scans in Australia on the medical side. On the health and fitness side, which is um measure up, as you said, um I would call we started off as uh purely just DEXA uh measuring people's body composition, and we sort of um through listening to our customers, we more we morphed into more of a performance and longevity um I guess lab um measuring DEXA, so you body composition, VO2 max, um grip strength. Um just we're about to introduce thigh pull and um we're gonna start doing lactate threshold testing.

From DEXA To A Longevity Lab

SPEAKER_03

Fantastic. Okay, good. A lot to unpack there. I'm excited. Before we get into the ins and outs there, you specifically, I want to get into a couple of things, I guess, um, both on sort of your history, but even more so personally for you, things you're passionate about. Um, one of my favorite questions that I like to start each episode with uh for any guest that comes on is if you could make one change in the world, what would that be? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_00

Um definitely I would make the world healthier. Um because uh firstly, I'm passionate about it. And secondly, I believe if you don't have health, you've got nothing.

SPEAKER_03

That's pretty powerful. Um, what do you love most about the work you're doing now?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, look, um helping people, uh waking up each morning and knowing that I've made some sort of mean meaningful difference through data to someone's life, uh whether it's on the medical side that we've um um diagnosed someone with either osteopenia or osteoporosis, um on the uh performance and longevity side, helping someone to actually uh fulfill their um goals through um science-based uh tracking and um our EPs um who actually perform all the tests, giving them some uh proper data um that they can go away and use. It's like I guess someone always asks me, well, so all these tests, what are they actually um, you know, what what good is it to me? And I said, well, it's a roadmap, it's like a cheat sheet. You follow it, uh, science-based, um, it works. Um, whether it's telling you that you need to do, you know, either game or muscle or lose fat or do both, uh, or on your VO2 Max, uh, which is obviously um the other part that we do um and that's very popular with us, um, saying to someone, look, you know, for with the normative data, um, you're either excellent or listen, you've got to work on that.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. Yep. Okay, fantastic. Um you mentioned you've sort of evolved the product as it's gone, particularly in the longevity space. Um were there sort of key timelines that that that I guess really triggered the let's get VO2 max in on top of the DEXA, let's start to look at some strength measures, grip strengths, and as you said, you're looking into mid-thigh pool. Did that happen really recently, or was that something that happened? Because if we go back to 2009, when you guys have conceived this idea, you're a good decade ahead of the uh of the market. So I'm sure that would have been challenging in its own right.

SPEAKER_00

It was, it was. Our biggest challenge uh when we when we started, um, and actually my business partner, uh Jared Muirkin, who's a uh sports scientist, and he's actually got a PhD, so he's a doctor of sports science. He had a company before me and him got together called Body Composition Australia, and he was actually, to my knowledge, the first person to bring Dexter to the commercial world. He was a research fellow in Queensland University, and he was actually PhD in his PhD used Dexter a lot because it was it was on amputees and how how fast muscle wastes. Um, so he thought, great, this would be great for the commercial world. So he started a small um, I guess, uh clinic or practice uh in Bono Junction in Sydney, and that's how me and him met, and uh that was in 2006. So and then uh I joined him in 2009 to scale the business.

DEXA Vs Calipers And Impedance

SPEAKER_03

Okay, yeah, I can imagine um I guess the challenges with that.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, just oh it was just yeah, look, no one really knew what it was about. I mean, back then, the most uh popular form, I guess, of um measuring yourself if you were doing uh body composition uh measurement was probably your skin fold. Yeah, calipers, yeah, the old school. That's right. I remember them, mate. Then came uh impedance, okay. Um, and um, and I guess, you know, then came Dexa, and I guess the only the only true um, and I don't just say it because it's you know uh your product my product, but DEXA actually measures composition. So um your muscle, your fat, and your bone. Um your uh calipers is subcutaneous fat. So, you know, I mean when you actually get a DEXA, you actually you find out that a lot of our fat we carry in our heads, yeah. We've all got fat heads, so yeah. But you know, we've also got that um, you know, uh visceral fat that's under uh that's around the organs. I mean, you're never gonna pick that up with calipers. Yeah. Um and uh by impedance, um what is impedance? So impedance is basically an elect electric current um that is sent through your uh through your body. So that's the one where people stand on hands on their hand, they yeah, that's right. The the more the more I guess um develop machines, um, you'll stand on a plate and hold, I guess, two rods. Yeah. Um the basic ones are just you know the scales that you buy in Kmart for a couple hundred bucks. Uh they send a current through your uh body. Uh basically it measures your weight and water and then uses an algorithm to convert it to um your composition. So it actually doesn't measure it, it's a it's a estimation. Okay. Um sometimes you can be lucky and it's close, but most of the time we find it it's not. And also, you know, different you you you measure, you have a drink of water, you measure again, it's a totally different changes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. I've experienced that. Um, I mean, I was lucky enough to go through uni as all this stuff was coming through 2012, 13, and yeah, we were really discussing the efficacy of these measurements and what they can mean. I went into the high performance world and did sports science and exercise science, and it was all about um, I guess, quality of measurement, because you know, certain sports require a really good awareness of your mass and and and muscle versus fat mass as well. So um, yeah, we went went into a lot of detail and I remember observing an impedance-like measure, and it changed about 15% between the morning I did it and the afternoon I did it. It's probably based on food and water and those sorts of things, which I think is a really important thing um for consumers to understand. Oh, absolutely. And because this stuff has a lot of of uh of a psychological effect and confidence effect on people's training, the outcomes they're achieving, or maybe not achieving.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we we find um and interesting, so so to just you know circle back to what you were just saying, except in terms of the measurement, uh a lot of our customers say, well, generally, what's the you know, what's the difference, what's the error, what's the error between DEXA and impedance? And we say on an average it's 10, 10 to 15 percent. And they go, oh, that doesn't sound like much. And I go, okay, well, you're 70 kilograms, so 10% is seven kilos and 15 is 10. So do you think there's there's not much difference having you know seven kilos more muscle or seven kilos more fat or 10? Oh, that they straight away go, oh my god, makes that much difference. I said, Yeah, it's you know, so yeah, it's it's a and unfortunately, you know, it can give you a false positive or a false negative. Yep. So, you know, uh, you can only really um manage what you what what you measure accurately.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. Let's um sort of stick on the bone bus for a moment. Was that the original concept or was it sort of based on performance?

Launching The Bone Bus Nationwide

SPEAKER_00

Uh no, the bone bus, um, we sort of like when we when Jared and I got together um and wanted to scale his business from like basically a practitioner, uh, we sort of looked at the business. We said, look, DEXA's definitely what we want to do. Um, now let's have a look at you know what else DEXA basically applies to. And and I and what you know basically came out is bone density testing because that's what the machine was actually designed to do. Yeah. Okay. Um the body composition side came later when they decided that could actually be done because it the DEXA so mild x-ray can give can give can measure the difference between obviously your fat and your and your muscle and your bone because of the density. So we we thought, why don't we um start on the medical side? Uh we did a lot of research, we found that you know the over 70s in Australia could get uh Medicare rebate. So we thought, well, why don't we, you know, try and um latch on to that. Um and we thought, why don't we make it mobile? So rather than having a fixed site, we'll put in a you know what we call them now bone buses um and go and outreach to places that don't have indexes. So we started out as basically an outreach service to rural country areas. Wow.

SPEAKER_03

That's um I've got it and I've said it probably 20 times in this podcast, the brother that you know he works as a doctor in Wagga, central New South Wales now. And he said the biggest problem is you don't have access to all these things that we just take for granted in you know, a bit more of an urban area, this being a prime example. So I can imagine the market out there would have received this pretty well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I mean, firstly, um you know, people were like amazing, you bring this service to me. You know, uh I'm the demographic is elderly, so predominantly the over 70s, and for them to get in the car and travel one, one and a half hours there and back, a lot of them need carers or family members to coordinate, just didn't happen until we turned up and uh yeah, it was really well received. Um, and we got a lot of support from the doctors. Um, and we just expanded and just started to grow, grow, and grow. It we were still doing uh body composition at the same time, but we were doing that purely from our headquarters.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, yeah, right. So the bone bus itself is purely bone density.

SPEAKER_00

Now, now it is. Okay. Back then we were doing both, okay, but we were focusing more on the medical side.

SPEAKER_03

On the medical side of it. Yeah, that's incredible. I can imagine, you know, just that uh that relief almost for someone living in a rural area in any state.

SPEAKER_00

And so now you guys are nationwide. Yes, we are. We've got 19 bone buses. Um we're in every state except for the Northern Territory. Um and um yeah, look, we've uh and we've got a number of them. Uh the only state that we only have one in is at the moment in Tasmania.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

How uh how does the consumer w find the nearest bone bus? Uh well, we actually find you. So we basically work with about 2,400 medical centres around Australia. Uh there's about give or take, about 4,000 in total. So we work for with uh more than half. Um we basically uh go to them, say, Do you want to do a bone health initiative with your patients? Um, makes it really easy for um you to stay on top of their bone health. Um we help them with preparing the recall. Uh we set some dates depending on how many over 70s they have. And then we come out, um, their doctors write the referrals and we scan them. Bang, easy as that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then they can get into, I guess, more proactive solutions once they're known. Absolutely.

Fracture Risks And Stark Statistics

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. When we started, um osteoporosis really was the silent disease, because that's a nickname because people really don't worry about it till it's too late, till they start getting uh fractures, and it's a compounding effect. You get more and more and more. And most of my wrist fractures, uh, 95%, uh, which everyone goes, oh, that's not much because people generally fall, catch themselves. But what made me even more passionate when I got into this space, my mum, um, she was osteopenic, like luckily not osteoporotic, fell over and broke both her wrists. Now, luckily, um, myself and my sister had the means to look after her because for basically uh eight weeks her her wrists were fixed, so you can't do anything. Yeah. So that's you know, people go, so that's 95% of the fractures. Yeah, right. Now, the other five is your hippo lumbar spine. Now, those ones are lethal. And what I mean by lethal, um generally uh we we collect a lot of data for healthy bones, which is the the previous osteoporosis Australia, we're actually in a partnership with them. Um and basically from uh all the data, 25% of the people that go in with a hippo lumbar spine fracture to hospital generally don't come out, so it's got a very high mortality rate, one in four people. Uh 50% are permanently disabled, so either a walking stick or a walker, even more common, and only really 25% make full recovery. Wow. It's chilling. And another another um statistic that I love to throw at people is that more people die from osteoporitic fractures in Australia uh than they do from breast cancer. Yep, breast cancer gets all the government support and osteoporosis virtually gets none.

SPEAKER_03

Wow. I mean, and and that that's not age-related, that's outcome related, right? That's just bone related. And so you could be in your 50s and potentially be in the situation.

SPEAKER_00

Generally, yeah, generally all the again, all the data shows that you know, uh with men with women, it starts their bone density really starts to drop away um after menopause. Yep. Um and with men, generally after the age of 55, 60, um, it is still predominantly a female disease. Um I don't want to call that sounds yeah chauvinist. Based on the data. Based on the data, more women that's more women suffer from it than men, but men aren't far behind.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And it's probably there's a handful of lifestyle factors that earlier on in life that contribute to that in terms of the gender difference. Oh, yeah. Being sports and physicality in terms of the work that can do, heavy lifting.

SPEAKER_00

Heavy lifting, you know, you want you want to um um, I guess you want to avoid uh osteoporosis as much as you can, uh, get some direct sunlight, yeah, you know, 10 minutes a day. Okay. Um, and do heavy lifting, not just weights, but heavy wood lifting. Heavy stuff, some impact.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's it. We've talked about it on here before. Um, in terms of the big milestones or aha moments for you guys over this, you know, the last how many years now? Almost almost one and a half decades. Yeah. Um, what are some of the big sort of breakthroughs that you've had?

Prevention: Lifting, Sunlight, Supplements

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so I guess the first one was going national, which was about five years after we um had our first bone bus. So within five years, we had 10 of them. And we were uh nationwide. Um then I guess three years ago, um, morphing more into a uh longevity performance um lab rather than just a DEXA measuring service for body composition. And I guess last year, which I was really um very proud, we scanned um just on the medical side 110,000 Australians, uh, which made up about um from Medicare I believe from the from the Medicare records of you know people um uh claiming IGM numbers, I think we're about 14% of the market. So for us it's um it's a lot. Um and it, you know, our mission was always to increase awareness of osteoporosis and and get people healthy through measurement. And I think we're succeeding.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we are, mate. Fantastic. One of the uh we just celebrated our 11th birthday and and last week I did a little series on 11 rules that I've learned along the way. And and one of the big ones was measure. Um measure things in your training, measure things in your business, and then you'll be able to actually, as you said, sort of set a bit of a clear goal and outcome that you want to want to get. What do people tend to do in terms of their lifestyle or or um I guess their their actual health, particularly relating to the bones, once they sort of realize oh, I'm osteopenic, osteoporosis, what sort of behavioral things are encouraged? We've talked about obviously lifting and sunlight.

SPEAKER_00

So, I mean, first and foremost, we encourage them to actually see their doctor. Okay. Uh, and depending on the severity, uh, if they're osteop uh osteopenic, it's one of the conditions that you can actually, well, we've seen time and time again, even my mum, it can be reversed. So um, you know, start with exercise, that's a very important one. Um, lifting, uh, and there's actually um drills that your exercise physiologists can set for you that are very effective. Um, yeah, getting more sunlight. Uh, if you've got, I know some people can't because of issues with their skin and all that, then uh supplements, supplementation. Um, and but yeah, if you are actually um osteoporotic um medication, I mean it's you know, you people don't you know, with the with the um with the facts I just said before, I mean, if you're really what it's a fatal condition, it's a serious condition. It's not just you can break a bone, you can, you know, god forbid, end up in hospital and then die. And even when you are in hospital, I mean it's very uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's not a nice period of time to go through for anyone.

SPEAKER_02

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Let's stay on that sort of macro factor, leaning into the macroeconomics and the preventative and measurable health elements. If we zoom out, you know, you guys are operating on a national level, which I sit here in this little bubble where everyone's healthy and everyone's training and everyone's very conscious. Um you're doing enough work from an economic perspective. What's the argument for an investment, be it through a government insurance companies, um, to lean in on more of this preventable stuff? You know, you you're only scanning people 70 years and older. Um, would you have, or for what you've seen, uh a bit of a case to push forward to say, hey, we need to actually think about this at different age groups?

The Economics Of Early Screening

SPEAKER_00

Oh, absolutely. I mean, Australia for some reason um has um some, you know, I was Medicare support for the over 70s. Um most other countries, it's between 60 and 65. But all the data that's coming out, uh, it's 55. And overs should really be getting scan. And there's bone scans. Bone scans, yeah. But as well as bone scans, I mean there's another condition called psychopenia, which is where you know you basically start to lose muscle mass. And that's how you know you see quite a lot of uh elderly people that are frail. Well, generally they're frail because they've got it's some they've got psychopenia. Yeah. And that's uh, you know, if you want to, I guess, chase the longevity uh goal, uh, you want to make sure that you don't become old and frail.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03

I'm sure there's probably some robust data, you guys might have even seen it already, where it it'd be really interesting. Muscles pull on bones, they put stress on bones and lay thicker bones. So if you've got the muscle, it's gonna be good. If you're not moving or, you know, not aware of how much muscle you have or how much muscle you're losing, it's obviously gonna have an effect on your bones as a long-term result. So it makes a ton of sense. You know, in terms of cost savings on a government level or or I guess a large scale level, chronic disease-wise, musculoskelelial injury, metabolic health. If people were looking at a DEXA earlier, do you think that it'd have a big effect on that?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, look, you just do the math. So a person with a hippo lumbar spine fracture uh is usually in hospital for about three months. And generally, you know, taking up a hospital bed, uh, constant care. And that's let's just put them in the in the 25% that actually make a full recovery. So I don't know, what's the what's the cost of a hospital bed these days? A couple of thousand a day. Jeez, yeah. So, you know, uh average that over, you know, um 90 days. I mean, you're looking at, you know, 150, 100, 200,000. And then, you know, that over all the people that you know end up in in hospital with those sort of fractures. So you can prevent them, but that's just as I said, that's the the 5%. What about the 95%, the wrist fractures, the people that you know can't go to work for eight weeks that you know need constant um care and support. And I mean it's I mean it's a thread that keeps giving up. Absolutely. I mean, we're we're talking about billions and billions of dollars of saving for the cost of a scan that's um to the normal consumer, it's$130. Wow. Yeah. It's a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, totally. And if it's subsidized, it's even more exciting. Yeah. And I think the best thing we see in a really anecdotal sense is, and we've encouraged a lot of people to go and get a full DEXA, um, is they come back in and their motor motivation levels are through the roof. They're going, this was really good. Like there's some positive here. My muscle mass is good. I need to work on my visceral fat, and but my bones and muscle look great. So you're going, good, you know, we've got something to work with. But they get really excited to be training, to try and drop a bit of body fat, they get onto their diet. Um, so you know, for any individual, if you get access to this stuff and you start to look at it, you're gonna start to think about your lifestyle behavioral sort of norms. Um why do you think it hasn't become mainstream policy or I guess something that insurance companies are putting forward, etc.?

Beyond BMI: Why Insurers Should Evolve

SPEAKER_00

Um, good question. And um, I've actually tried to uh get insurance companies on board. Uh I've reached out to um the main the main players. Um and it's I mean they still use part of their assessment uh BMI, which is like, well, wait a minute. That's I mean, that's so much data out there that I mean it's it's normative data that has just been all clung together. And you know, I mean, I'd probably uh well I I think I think I'd be on close the obese range, you know. Um you don't index at your body fat percentages as well. Um I'm I usually sit around the 10, 10%. So, you know, and um and we've had we've actually had um you know um special forces soldiers in because even the army still uses the BMI, which these guys are jacked, yeah, and they've been told that they have to lose weight because you know they're BMI, the doctors have picked up that they're um overweight and overweight beast on the BMOs. When these guys, I mean, you know, they'd probably outrun, outlift anyone. Yeah, yeah. So it's yeah, look, I don't know. I don't know why I I can't make heads or tails because I think whatever insurance company uh does actually implement uh DEXA into their protocols will have a massive market advantage, they'll be able to, you know, analyze the risk on an individual a lot better. So they'll be able to charge a lot less premiums. So obviously all the people will go towards them. But I think it just takes one and then the rest will follow. Yeah, it'll be a domino effect very quickly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, anyone that works in the insurance world at a high level here, take this on board. Um, and as I said, from a again, an anecdotal sense, it's like people's behavior and their healthy habits change as soon as they start to see some really true, well sort of scientifically valid data. And I think, you know, there's an element of don't change, don't fix what isn't broken, probably from an insurance sense that maybe it's just the too hard a thing to implement, which might be an argument for them. But at the end of the day, we're moving pretty fast in terms of our understanding scientifically, and also the cost of healthcare is moving pretty fast, and we need to intervene earlier, um, which is another big thing that I've sort of spoken to. We've got a couple of researchers here that work in the economics of the cost of health versus GDP, and it's not looking really pretty. And I'm sure you guys have probably seen that stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, sure. Well, we all we've all seen it. I mean, look, um the cost of insurance premiums for for health are going up on a yearly basis. And um, I mean, why should everyone suffer if if you're if you read a lead a really healthy lifestyle and your all your metrics are good, but you're being you're paying for all these other people that don't do it, um why shouldn't it it should be individual-based, shouldn't it? And the only way you do that is actually drill down and have proper measurement of individuals and their health. And the best way for me is the do it do the biometric testing on them, do their body composition, do their VA2 max, so you know, see what their cardiovascular fitness is like and do their grip strength and thigh pool. Get a good understanding.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, what would the jump forward 10-15 years these things are implemented? What do you think the lens would look like in terms of healthcare in Australia?

Turning Data Into Motivation And Habit

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I mean, it would be uh firstly, you'd have more hospital beds. Um, I think the, you know, I think uh definitely there'd be less spending on health on healthcare. I mean, it's you know the current um health system is what they call the 2.0 system. So it's reactive, right? You get sick, you go and see a doctor, right? I mean, but it's too late already, right? And you don't know at what stage you're seeing the doctor and if they can even be fixed. Why don't you get proactive health, right? So get all your diagnostic um tests done and they pick it pick things up early, can be addressed, and I mean it would just save and forget about the money. The money for for me, you know, um, I didn't get into health honestly. It to I was in property before this. I got into health because it was my it was my passion. Yeah. You know, you want to make a difference to people's lives, you want them to, you know, be healthy, feel good, um, their whole lives, not just you know, what what's happening currently in the Western world that you know you feel fantastic, then get to like the last decade of your life, which is where you can actually enjoy yourself because you're you're starting to, you know, slow down, you know, you've got it, you're supposed to be all set, and that's and then you start being sick.

SPEAKER_03

And all of a sudden you can't enjoy all these things that we worked so hard for, yeah, and said we'll do that when we can, which is wrong. Like it's totally yeah. All right, let's zoom in on on I guess the intricacies of like the the service you guys provide and how consumers use them. Dexter scans, VO2 max, resting metabolic rate is sort of part of that, some of the strength stuff. A lot of people can get overwhelmed just by those abbreviations. What the hell does that mean? What does it look like for me? Having seen some of the reports you guys generate, um, and I guess the time you've taken to make it digestible is probably something that I've that would set you guys aside. Um, how long and how hard did you work on putting that system in place so that someone that doesn't have the health literacy of a health professional can come in, get a scan, get all these tests done, turn around and look at their report and go, here's good, here's areas of opportunity, things I need to work on. And I actually make sense of that. How did you guys go about formulating that whole process?

Making Reports Simple And Actionable

SPEAKER_00

Well, look, it it all started, I guess, um, again, uh through uh feedback from our uh customers. Um, I mean, some people, like yourself, you've you've got a sports uh science background, so you for you it you're all over it, right? For other people, they're like they look at the report and they go, Oh well, what does this mean? Uh and for a lot of people, you know, data coming out at them is just overwhelming. So the first thing we did, we created an app, uh, which we did that uh eight years ago. Um, and basically that sort of summarized the key things that people were looking at. Obviously, your uh muscle mass, your fat mass, uh your bone density, um, and your body fat percentage. Uh last year we updated that in apps. We got a brand new app that's even easier to understand. Um, and then what we thought, well, you know what? Um why don't we just carry that over and make our reports a lot easier to understand as well. So now we've got a different uh very well, it's unique to us because we created them uh brand new reports, and our reports really summarize things for the lame man uh graphs with normative data to see where you actually sit. And we've actually um come up with a a DEXA body score, uh, which basically combines everything from your um muscle mass, lean mass, everything that we basically measure, bone density, visceral fat, and then it gives you a score out of 100. And that's really easy to understand, and that's something that you know people can actually take away and go, okay, well, I'm sitting, I might be sitting at you know, 75, I want to get to 80, right? And it's not just focusing on, which is the main thing uh people generally come to us, I want to know what my body fat fat percentage is. It's actually your all-round body composition health.

SPEAKER_03

Yep, yep, okay, makes sense. In line with that, what other misconceptions do the average person sort of does the average person have when they come in?

SPEAKER_00

They oh so the first one is um, and I guess I I understand that it took me a long time to get my head around it because obviously even though I started as a as a um a customer with Jared, my business partner, but you know, you start to wear different hats, you forget that. So most people use Dexa as a validation tool, you know, they wait till they get into shape, they go and get a Dexa. Oh yeah, this is great, right? Yeah, but that's not it, that's not a tool that's just telling you what you already know. If you think you look good in the mirror, hey, who cares what your body fat percentages are, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

What it what it is, it should be a tool used as first you benchmark yourself, doesn't matter where where you are, and then what you do, you do either an exercise intervention or a nutrition intervention or even a recovery intervention, right? And see interesting and see how those things, you know, move the needle and and what needle they move. And if they don't move the needle, then you adjust them. And that way you're able to sort of fine-tune. It's like me. When I started, I had my first DEXA uh I think about a year after Jared started, which is when he was still at Body Composition Australia in 2009. And I was um going to the gym six days a week. Um I had good muscle mass, but I just, you know, couldn't see my abs, right? 14.4% body fat, I'll still remember that. And then all I said, like, you know, I already had a ton of muscle mass. I just want to get leaner, but I don't want to lose my muscle mass. And then using the DEXA, and first I started using it every three months, I sort of started, you know, changing my training a little bit. Then I started changing my diet. And then sort of, it doesn't happen overnight, but within sort of five years, I already got myself down to around 10%. And I've been able to stay that for the last decade. Wow. And that's just by, and that's not through any, you know, extreme dieting, extreme exercise. It's just learning about what works for my body and what doesn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

How variable do you think that is for people in terms of what works for you may not work for the person next to you? And do you see that in the scan results?

SPEAKER_00

Uh look, it is, it is, but generally what we find it's you know, as you know, being a sports, yeah, you know, and and and it's took me a long time to get around, you know, health is a science. So there's certain rules that if you follow, they do work. Yeah. And the people that say, oh, but I'm doing this, right? But then if you really, you know, I guess really observe them or see, they're actually not. So you've got to actually follow the the golden rules. And if you do, it it works. Because you know, it's it is it's a science.

SPEAKER_03

It is, right? And there's truth, it's etched in truth. And yeah, as much as some of us don't like to hear that or know that, it you know, yeah, behaviorally, you do know what's what you're doing and what you're not doing.

Benchmark First, Then Intervene

SPEAKER_00

And I fought with that because you know, not having, and you know, if I had it all over again, I would have done, you know, um either uh a medical degree or sports science degree because I love the space that I'm in. Most of what I've uh what I've learned is actually because I for a long time, we don't now I used to sit next to Jared, so sitting next to someone like that that's so high in you pick things up. And it took me a long time to sort of get my, you know, to really be comfortable with the fact that hey, you know, there's certain rules and things that you know you follow that are evidence-based, they actually do work. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it's not sexy and it's not quick. That's right. It takes some suffering, you know, and some some due diligence, but it does work. And then and then, you know, being able to look back and actually see some um some significant change. Um, but also through a behavior that is sustainable is probably the biggest one that would go a long way with this. The longevity noise, if you will, um, has obviously picked up a lot last six years. Um I'd say probably even more three years.

SPEAKER_00

Big yeah. Ever since Peter Otir put that book out, Outlive. Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean that everyone just went. I mean, there was you're right, six years the noise has been started going around, but he's seemed to really take it to the next level.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so, so with that, in terms of I guess people's awareness of VO2 Max, is there um you mentioned you guys going to bring lactic testing in, which is I'd I would have recommended that um from a sports science perspective. But um I guess the risks associated with starting to look at the VO2 Max sort of things, is there sort of a line with which, you know, say someone's never done any exercise or anything to do a VO2 Max test or not? Or is that something you go just get in and get it done, get that objective baseline and then go from there?

SPEAKER_00

Well, we still uh I mean, get a get the clients to sign a waiver. So and I recommend that, you know, from I guess my property days, if you're gonna sign a contract, make sure that what you're signing uh it protects you is it protects you. So speak to your doctor, right? Okay. So speak to your doctor, say look, I want to do a VO2 max. Uh the test is very important. And I get it, I guess I get a get this question asked a lot. They always go, okay, well, you know, if you had to describe what a DEXA scan uh tested, if you had to like, you know, to the to layman, um and what a VO2 max, if you had to, you know, use a descriptive analogy. And I said, okay, so pretend you're a car, right? So if you're doing a DEXA scan, so the DEXA will tell you the chassis, the the the I guess the uh you know the the bones of it, how strong they are, how good they are, how good they look, everything like like if everything everything's in the right place. The VO2 Max is the engine and how powerful the engine is.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So if you really want to, you know, you gotta you gotta have both. If you want a high performance vehicle, yeah, it's totally worth it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Um in terms of that uh that interaction into the strength space, you guys are doing grip strength, yep, mid-thigh pull. Why do people have to worry about that?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's I mean that's a great question. Again, um, you know, you can have you know big muscles, but it doesn't mean that they're gonna be uh strength very strong as comparison to someone else. So yeah, that's and you know, all grip strength is especially with, I guess, in the media at uh at the moment showing you that there's a very high correlation with longevity uh between grip strength and now uh following on from that, I think you'll now see a lot of it will come with your thigh pull as well.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, equally as important. Yeah, and you collect that objective chassis for the engine. This is probably brakes and tires and how well they're working, which all co-contribute, right? That's right, as we've sort of touched on. Um in terms of someone that feels overwhelmed, listening to this for the first time, or they've heard a few of these things, they want to get started, they feel like it's all too much. What do you sort of say to that person that hasn't been that active, is really sort of feeling like they want to do something about it? Where do they start?

VO2 Max, Safety, And The Car Analogy

SPEAKER_00

Um I would definitely start with a body composition uh measurement. So get a DEXA first. Um, you could also go for a grip strength. So see where you basically uh in terms of the population where you like. Because some people are naturally strong. They are. That's uh it is a genetic thing, and some people are naturally weak. Doesn't mean you can't change that because you can. Um and then after that, um I think you you'll just by nature, um, when you start going to the gym, you're probably, you know, you'll start um doing just weights, and then eventually you'll want to do a bit of cardio, then do a VO2 max, and then combine, you know, all of those. And we actually have a package that we call the longevity package, which combines the three main biometric tests, which is uh, I guess your DEXA, your VO2 max, and your group strength, all in one. Yeah, right. So now when we recommend for you know someone that's already, I guess, training and really focused on their longevity to get that at least once a year. Yeah, incredible, very good.

SPEAKER_03

Um all these trends, specific diets, types of training. Um, I guess how should listeners think about avoiding, approaching, erring on the side of caution to those, and then leaning in on this evidence stuff.

Grip Strength, Thigh Pull, And Longevity

SPEAKER_00

Okay, well again, another great question. Um look, uh I would do some uh some I don't I I don't think people do enough research, and looking at Instagram is not research, right? Because it's not regulated. Uh the stuff that I've seen on there is to me, some of it's actually criminal. Um, but yeah, people just parade it as if it's you know uh true and and people should be doing it. So I so my first recommendation is um do some research. Just you know, at the these days, yeah, the you know, with Google and Chat GDP, you can get a lot of good data. Some bad data comes through, that's why you gotta, I guess you always ask them to fact fat check. Um go and see uh, you know, if you're just starting out, go and see a um a trainer. Uh, I would recommend um definitely for you to look at the credentials of the trainer. And for me, um, I think they need to have a site sports science background or be an exercise physiologist. That's just my opinion. Um, and um then start, yeah, measuring yourself and you know, start with a training program, and then I think some people go overboard, they they start with training, nutrition, all in one, and then it's just too much behavioral change all at once. Yeah. My recommendation is uh slow and steady wins the race. So do little tweaks, like you know, um commit to going to the gym for, you know, you're gonna say you hire a trainer for an hour, right? Commit to doing a couple of training sessions with a trainer and then one on your own. So that's three times a week. Yeah. Then when you're comfortable with that, move that to four times a week. And then, you know, you might then s want to sharpen up your diet for, you know, increased performance, or maybe if you wanted to lose a bit of uh body fat. Um, so then start introducing and you're Once once your your training becomes a habit and um a lifestyle, then start working on your nutrition. And then pretty soon, again, slowly, slowly. And then that becomes, you know, part of your lifestyle. And then all of a sudden, you know, you you see these changes and changes that are not there for, you know, a couple of months, six months, twelve months, but there for you know, a couple of decades or exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And and we see it all the time. And it's sort of trying to pull on the reins with some people, it's sort of like go home, don't go away. Like you don't need to be here seven days a week because it won't last and it doesn't. And we've seen that time and time again where they have the best intentions, they overdo it, they either hurt themselves, which is obviously a big factor. They go, Oh, wait on I'm gonna stop doing this. My body doesn't like it. It's a lot of information from the body to say, hang on, this is too much. Um, or they just burn out, they just lose enthusiasm. And you know, incremental measurements with incremental change, continually seeing that keeps you engaged, but too fast, too soon. Yeah. Burns the candle. Um mate, to wrap this up, I love this. Um it's got me very excited and feeling passionate again. What's next for you guys? You're thinking mid mid-thigh test, what other areas do you think uh are gonna really come to the forefront in terms of what you want to be able to give the consumer base level understanding in terms of their health overall, um, to promote obviously healthier decisions and better understandings of where they're at?

SPEAKER_00

Well, as I mentioned before, we're we're gonna introduce the lactate threshold test, um, and basically um that will give you a very accurate um assessment of what your zone two training um where you are for your zone zone two training, and that obviously as we know for um you know burning fat that is the the sweet spot and um so yeah that's the next exciting thing as well as yeah the introducing the um the thigh pull uh because you know I guess the grip strength, upper body, thigh pull, lower body, posterior chain, both are equally as important, yeah, and really specific.

How Beginners Should Start

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, incredible. All right, well, Sasha, I think that's uh that's enough for everyone for for one day. Um, but yeah, uh as I said, I'm I'm I'm inspired by what you guys are doing. It's been really invaluable for us to get clients and patience over and uh and get a test done. And and as I said, their excitement and their adherence for their health has improved. So for anyone sitting there doubting yourself or where you're at, go and get tested, go and actually have a look, get that baseline. Most of the time you're probably going to be surprised that you're not that bad. Um, but more importantly, it's gonna really motivate a couple of key behavioral things that you've always sort of intended on doing. It's sort of that kick kick it in the uh in the in the backside to get you going. So, mate, I'm uh I love it. I'm I'm really impressed with what you guys are doing, and thank you very much for jumping on today. Great, thank you. Beauty. Thanks, mate. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to the Science of Fitness podcast. Be sure to check us out across all forms of social media and subscribe to this channel if you want to stay up to date to the latest episodes and any other anecdotes with which we might share across these video platforms. If you ever find yourself locally in Brisbane, be sure to drop into one of our facilities or down on the Gold Coast in Burley. You can also check us out at scienceoffitness.com.au and see all things relating to what we offer in programming and performance, whether it's online or in person.