Sales, storytelling and ethical persuasion (with storytelling expert Marsha Shandur)

If you dream of getting up on a stage, presenting a rivotting presentation and having your Stripe notifications LIGHT UP immediately after... You need this episode.

Expert Storyteller Marsha Shandur talks audience psychology, ethical persuasion and what's happening neurologically when you say the right things to an eager audience.

➡️ FIND MARSHA HERE: https://www.yesyesmarsha.com/shinynewclients/

Mentioned: Becky (the parent coach) and her viral video: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DK-cZhOTq-B/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MTZ5eXdncDZjMnc4Ng==

In Part 1 of this episode Marsha and I gabbed about social media, and Marsha regaled me with tales (she is SO fun to listen to). Here in part 2 we're getting down to business! And by that I mean: Mirror Neurons, persuasion, and using emotions to connect with your audience and leads.

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Music by Jordan Wood

Hosted by Jenna Harding (Warriner), Creator of Magic Marketing Machine

Transcript

Jenna Warriner (00:00)
We're back with Marsha Shander. You are going to pee in this episode. She is so funny. She is a storytelling expert. We're going to talk about some of the psychology behind storytelling mistakes people make in their stories and how you can tell ethically persuasive stories in your work and in your marketing.

And I want to explain what I mean when I say ethically persuasive. mean, persuasion, not coercion. This isn't about saying, um, this isn't about tricking people. This also isn't about being like, listen, you losers. If you don't buy my product, your life's going to fail. Like that kind of approach is actually quite effective in the short term. I don't think it is in the long term. This is just about the difference between that and being like, person who has problem that you've been stressed out about. Did you know that there's a solution to that problem? Did you know that I

have the solution to that problem, here you are. But doing it in a way that's like going to engage them immediately, that's going to make them feel like they know you. One of the things storytelling is so good at is making people feel like they're your friend. My first sales coach, Kendrick Shope, is from the Deep South. And she used to say, things being equal, friends buy from friends. Are things being unequal, friends buy from friends. Which means we're much more likely to buy something from somebody we already know. And so she talked to

about that in context of sales, of building relationships. I talk about that in context of storytelling, because how do you make people feel like they're your friend when you're speaking one to many? Storytelling is a brilliant way to do that. Like we've all had that experience of like somebody tells a story and you're like, that was such a well told story. You've got all of the beats. I never want to be friends with you. And then we've also all had that experience where like you go to an event. Usually for me, it's like I go to a conference where I don't really know anyone and I'm feeling awkward. And then somebody tells a story and I'm like, I love you, new best friend.

You know what I get your lens in the world. got I get a lot of comments that will say I think we would be friends if you were here. I think we would be friends. And I think one of the best compliments people can get on their social media content is when someone says that it feels like they're in their living room with you or it feels like you're on FaceTime. Totally, totally. And storytelling can help you do that. And you do not need bombastic stories like I can tell you a story about when I went to go and stay in this kind of

the Science Center in northern Alaska and I met these really cool scientists and I saw five different kinds of wildlife and we had a really fun party one time and it was awesome and you'd be like okay or I can tell you about the time it's Tuesday morning I step outside my front door and as the sun hits my face I feel this excitement in the pit of my belly and I put my hand into my pocket and the money is there this is gonna happen

And that's about me going to the corner store to buy a bag of chips. Like it's not about the story that you tell, it's about how you tell that story. So when I my God, what an amazing example. Oh my goodness. And so you can tell any story. And also when you're using storytelling in work, you don't need that narrative beginning, middle and end. Like if you're telling a storytelling, if you're doing a story at a storytelling show or you're doing a one person friend show, absolutely think about your narrative. But when you're using it in work, all you need is moments. So I talk about action scenes.

⁓ I, so can I tell you the most important thing that I can possibly tell you? If you remember nothing else that me or Jenna have said in the rest of this podcast, remember this. So this is a sentence that was given to me by my storytelling teacher, Sage Turtle. And when she did that, it landed a blanket of framework over everything else that I teach. So here's the sentence. When you're telling a story, you're making a movie inside your listener's brain.

I'm going to say that again, when you're telling a story, you're making a movie inside your listener's brain. So if you think about movies, there are three different kinds of scenes. We have voiceover. So voiceover is disembodied voice from the future, given context or philosophy. If you think about Richard Dreyfuss at the beginning of Stand By Me saying, I was 12 years old when I saw my first dead body or Morgan Freeman in Shawshank saying, there must be a con like me in every prison in America. So context and philosophy in voiceover, voice from the future.

The next kind of scene is montage. So montage is lots of real time scenes cut together with music done to show passage of time and or something changing. So if you think about romantic comedy, getting to know you montage, dirty dancing, learning the steps montage, high school movie makeover montage, rocky training montage. The reason we have that is so that we don't have to spend 32 hours watching Sylvester Stallone train. We can get that sense in a three and a half minutes song.

And then the third kind of scene is action scene. So action scene is any scene that is happening in real time, all from the perspective of one or a couple of the characters. So not just from an action movie, like any scene. So if you think about movies, most movies, like if you had a whole movie that was voiceover, that's like an audio book. It's not a good movie. If you had a whole movie that was montage, it's like a super long music video. It's not a good movie. So most movies are mostly made up of action scenes and then they use voiceover and montage to get from one set of scenes to the next. In storytelling, it's the same.

Um, voiceover might be when I was 18 years old, I went traveling around Europe. I visited nine different countries. I felt it was important to expand my horizons and meet people from different cultures. So you know what I did. You know my opinion on what I did, but you don't really know what that trip was like. Montage is little flash bulbs of pictures. When I was 18, I went traveling around Europe. I drank red wine in Paris. I looked at the street art in Berlin. I walked the canals of Amsterdam. So you know more about that trip, but you still don't really know what it's like. But action scene is getting super granular.

saying I'm standing on the subway in Paris. When I see this woman get up and start walking towards me and I panic because think, I don't speak French, what am going to say to her? And then in perfect English she says, I'm terribly sorry, you seem to have dropped your passport. So that's an action scene and that's where the magic happens. And the magic that happens is your brain literally behaves as if my story is happening to you. Like I tell a story about smelling coffee, your brain's olfactory cortex will start lighting up. I tell a story about picking up a glass.

your brain's motor cortex will light up specifically the part related to hand movement. So that's really powerful connection between us because our brains are in sync. And when you tell a story in a room full of people, that's also happening. And so all you need to have that effect to light up completely different parts of people's brains, to make yourself more memorable, to make yourself more familiar, because I've now had the same experience that you have had. So I can really connect to you is you just need to describe those action scenes. So you don't need a beginning, middle and end. You just need a moment.

And I think especially if you are selling anything, the moment you can describe can be the moment where you were where they are right now. And so you're showing them like you're relatable. I get it. I get you. And then maybe you tell another moment of what it's like to be on the other side of that. So you're showing them what's possible. And it's kind of the brain thing is kind of like, know, when you have a really vivid dream and you wake up and you're like, I'm not best friends with Harry Styles, but it kind of really felt like you were. That's what it's like when you listen to a well told.

It feels like it kind of happened to you. So when you use storytelling, you don't need to freak out about narrative. Just describe a moment. my goodness. You know, as you were going through that, I was like, okay, I had a moment in my head where I was like, this is sounding too hard and like, I can't do it. And then I was like, no, trust Marcia. She teaches this stuff. We're going to get there. And now you've broken it down and it's actually so simple and accessible to anybody.

So all you have to do to write those action scenes, this is the second most important thing I'm going to tell you, all you have to do to write those action scenes is just answer two questions over and over. What did it look like and how did you feel? What did it look like, how did you feel? So what did it look like? like, give me the vague context. Are you in a giant cavernous room with 400 people or are you in a tiny attic with one person? You know, any sensory details? What did it smell like? What did it sound like? We don't need all of them, but just give us a couple. You know, I'm standing in my granny's living room wearing an itchy sweater.

And then how did you feel is the most important one. People often think the biggest mistake in storytelling is too much detail. I would say it's not enough of the right detail because if you don't tell me how you feel, I do not care about your story. know what? You know what this reminds me of? I have this client and I will link this video down below, but she's a magic marketing machine person and she she just went pretty by like she got a ton of views on something. And anytime something goes off on social media, we say, OK, repost it for one. And then like.

another one of the things we do when something goes off is how can we replicate the same idea? Make a video that replicates the same hook and like say basically the same thing again, but also what was it about this that made it work? And so her thing was she teaches, I believe, like parenting skills. so say your kid is freaking out and they're like throwing tantrums and stuff, your teen child, and she like helps you handle that. That's my understanding. And so I might've got that wrong, but whatever. I'm writing. So, so she,

filmed herself in a real moment of life when she was dysregulated, when she was dealing with her kid. And then she filmed herself and the physical things that she did to calm down and then did a voiceover explaining what was happening and then like gave the audience a tip on how they can regulate. And she's like making sales off posts that are just doing the same thing again, catching herself in the moment. So that's, that's like hitting all your boxes, right? For what you're describing. Yeah. Yeah. The emotions, exactly. The situation you're in and the emotions.

And because with emotions, it shows us what the stakes are in a story. So if you say bumped into my neighbor in the street, OK, I bumped into my neighbor on the street and I was terrified. Now we know some stuff is going down. Also, it pulls you in. If you say bumped into my neighbor on the street and I was terrified. Now we want to know why. I'm sure you talk about information gaps all the time or like giving people.

something, you know, that's what a hook is when you say, have you heard this phrase, information gap this term? No, I haven't. But I think when we talk about hooks, we say it either should tease something they want or the consequence of something they want to avoid and then, or just invoke incredible curiosity. It's the curiosity. So an information gap is invoking curiosity. An information gap is like what's happening when you're watching Netflix and the little thing is swiping along and you know, you have to be up for work, but you're like, I'm just going to watch till the credits on the next episode. Cause as humans, we hate an information gap.

but we also love it floods our brain with dopamine and oxytocin, we're desperate to close it. So when you include emotion early on, it creates that information gap. I bumped into my neighbor and I was terrified, but the most important thing it does, and this is what your client did, is when there's an emotion, that's how you can reach in and grab the story. Because you haven't had every situation, but you have had almost every emotion. So maybe somebody watching hadn't had their kid annoy them in the particular way that...

her kid annoyed her, but they know what it is to be dysregulated as a parent. And so now they can connect with her and now they can relate to her. course, it makes sense. And it shows vulnerability because unless your emotion is always joy, because everything in my life is always perfect, there's vulnerability in showing emotions. Like it doesn't have to be sad emotions. It can be happy emotions in a dorky way. it shows. And when you show that you're not perfect, people like you more. Like those people who you bump into and you're like, how's it?

going. They're like, my god, amazing. ⁓ Just got promoted at work. Me and my spouse never have the same stupid fight over and over again. And my kids are so cute. They just do what I tell them to. Like, we don't like those people. And so when someone shows a little bit of vulnerability, it says like, it's OK, I'm not perfect either. Come stand next to me because I'm not going to judge you when you're not perfect. And emotions in your storytelling do that. And again, it doesn't have to be big vulnerability. My life is falling apart. It can be like, I was walking down the street and then I

realized that there was a big jam smear on my face and I'd smiled at all these people and how embarrassing. But that doesn't make you any less good of a coach or whatever it is that you do that you once had jam on your face. But it tells me that you're not perfect. So I'm now safe when I'm around you. Yeah, 100%. And I think that one of the big things I've always said, like one of the reasons that my account took off was because I pointed out the stain on my shirt and my greasy hair. And that was after like trying to be aesthetic and trying to be like all the other like Instagram coaches out there. And it's just completely not who I am.

And that was like a pivot. I mean, it could have been a coincidence, but it was at a pivotal turning point when my, my growth like absolutely took off. Okay. Marsha, you also talk about mirror neurons and what's going on in your client's head with mirror neurons. my God. love mirror neurons. So our mirror neurons are the parts of our brain that we use to

empathize with people. So if I were to tell you about this stretch that I did this morning for my neck, where I had to lift my chin and then push my tongue into the back of my top teeth. So did you just do it? Like probably, I'm sure there's people listening who just did that. And I didn't tell you to do it. I just told you that I did it. I do a thing in workshops where I go up to someone in the front row and I show them my fingers and I say, look at my fingers. And they're like, okay, why am I looking at your fingers? And then I say, three weeks ago, I was grating some cheese and I accidentally grated the skin of my knuckles off.

And after, okay, you just flinched, Jenna. You just saw that I'm fine. It didn't happen to you, but why did you flinch? Because of your mirror neurons. And so you can really activate mirror neurons and the best way to do that. So when you're describing, when you're answering that question, how did you feel? There's three different ways you can do it. One is what were you thinking at the time? If you're thinking, my gosh, why is, why did I invite her over? It's always horrible when she comes over. We know you're anxious. The second one is just to name it. I was happy. I was sad. I was scared. I was angry. But the

third one, is the hardest but the most powerful, is tell me where in your body did you feel those emotions? Because if you do that, I will feel those emotions. Like what we're trying to do when we're telling a story or just describing one action scene is we're trying to elicit a Freaky Friday style body swap between the person listening to the story and you in that moment. So if you say I walked into the meeting and my stomach went into a tight knot, my stomach goes into a tight knot and now I am right inside your story because you've literally changed my body the way that I changed your body, Jenna.

when I talked about grating my fingers on the cheese, someone's listening, like, stop saying it. But so it like literally transforms their body. so that's really powerful connection. And also

you get to decide how you want your audience to feel. And that's part of your brand. do you want your audience to be happy, happy, joy? Like, can you give, like, how can you make them feel that? How do you want one of the, somebody told me one time that one of the most powerful questions that I asked her when she worked with me was just how do you want people to feel if you had a storefront, even though a lot of these people are like online businesses or whatever, but if you had a store, how would you want someone to feel when they walked in and they were like, my God, I'm so glad you said that. Really? Is that the one? Great. Cool. Run with it if that helps.

That's a great question. And it's like, it doesn't always have to be happy. I just saw this brilliant comedian. She's called Rachel Wack. She's from Brooklyn. And I'm not going to swear because I don't like swearing on podcasts. But I went to see her and they introduced her and she wasn't on stage. And she just walks in, throws us all a look of disdain. And I'm going to not say the actual word, but she went, sorry, I'm late. I was ishting. And we're all like,

you're a magician you're supposed to be nice and she's so high status and she mostly just trashes men and then raises up all the women in the audience and it's kind of her reaction to like what it is to work in a very male-dominated field but it gives you such a feeling like I still am thinking about her show a month later it's so powerful and so you can really when you play with people's feelings that's how you affect them

And also we base almost all of our decisions on emotions. We actually use a part of our brain called the orbital frontal cortex, which is like about two inches behind your eye. And it's where we hold the memory of emotions. So when we're making a decision, what we're doing is asking ourselves, will this make me feel comfortable in the future? And so the quickest way to affect somebody's decision making is to affect their emotions. And if you know that the thing that you are selling will genuinely help that person, then that's when that becomes epic.

I think that you might like my take on clickbait because sometimes when I teach people how to do like a really strong hook, for example, they feel like it's unethical and they're like, that's so that's icky. And I also hate the word icky because it just, I'm like, whatever. they think that it's clickbait and then I, my stances, it's not clickbait.

if you deliver. Like news headlines get people in. yes, yes, yes. Movie posters get people in. Like it's not clickbait unless you show up and it's an empty room. Yes. I mean, if you send an email that's like, I'm going to really date myself here, Jenna, but that's like naked Britney photos. I don't know that would put naked Chris Jenna photos and then you don't deliver any of those photos, that will be clickbait, whatever it is. But yeah, if you actually deliver, it is not clickbait.

It's just good storytelling. It's just good hooking. It's just good. It's just good content. And it's what people have done. You know, it was the best of times. It was the worst of times. Right. People have been doing this for centuries in books. And so it's just about you have to I'm sure there are a million incredible novels that were written in a way that were impenetrable. And I might have really enjoyed that novel if only they'd sat down with an editor who said you cannot make your first two pages like this because no one will read it.

Or maybe might I pose businesses that are not drive, like not using these traits, not driving excitement, not believing in themselves, avoiding content creation and good storytelling a lot of times because they have fear that they're being manipulative or whatever, or they were sold to in a way that they didn't like or whatever. But now how are we supposed to add and how are the masses supposed to discover your business? Here is the thing. We all know people, we've all been in jobs with people.

that are terrible, right? But they were just really good in the interview. know, we all see things. Whenever I take, so we're in Canada, whenever there's this kind of transit in Ontario called Go Transit, and somebody designed the messaging for the buses. And I don't have time to go into it now, but it looks like a 14 year old dashed this off in their lunch hour. And this, they've been using this for eight years. And whenever I see stuff like that in the world, I'm always like, it actually inspires me.

because I'm like, somebody got paid money to do that. Me and my friends are always going to have jobs because we're all smarter than that person and that person got paid money. And so would you rather that the people making money are the ones who are really good at doing all those hooks and stuff, but don't actually have good content and don't actually have content that's making the world a better place? Would you rather it was you? Because they're doing that stuff. The baddies have all the tips. We need the goodies to use them as well. Bless. I'm obsessed with that. Okay, Marsha.

Who can pay you? Who can work with you? Tell us what your idle client will you do for them and then where we can find you. Okay, so I mostly work with people who are writing keynotes and talks, TEDx's, things like that. If you want to write a talk that includes stories, then I will help you craft a talk that includes stories that makes people raving fans, that makes people we sneak in little commercials for your work that don't even look like commercials. We have people crowd surfing you out of the auditorium at the end.

⁓ And then I also work with organizations. I've run workshops on storytelling and how to write captivating presentations for organizations. ⁓ And I have made a secret web page where lots of the people and the resources and the videos and things that I've talked about, I'm going to link to those on this page. And it's yes, yes, Marsha, M-A-R-S-H-A dot com forward slash shiny new clients. Beautiful. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Thank you.