Fragle Rok
Join Fragle as he and his friends explore, learn, and laugh. We cover health, history, psychology, philosophy, and more! Fragle traveled with the Grateful Dead for 10 years before moving to Taiwan to teach English. Now in Asia, he is bringing the past to the present by discussing social issues such as addiction, trauma, and mental health. Get ready to Laugh and learn baby, Let's go!
Fragle Rok
Art & Vulnerability with Performing Artist Tseng Chih Wei
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
A heat lamp, a foam roller, and a vow to tell the truth set the stage for a conversation that lives in the body as much as the mind. Fragle and co-host Tracy Mon sit with Wei, a Taiwanese performer and director whose latest piece invites the audience into a synesthetic landscape—words run backward, sentences fracture, lights shift like moods, and the story dissolves so feeling can lead. It’s disorienting, vulnerable, and, for those willing to surrender linear sense-making, surprisingly tender.
We compare notes on aging, and letting go of being “number one.” Wei calls acting “emotional athletics,” and breaks down the craft: rigorous voice and body warmups, relentless rehearsal, then the hardest step of all—releasing control so presence can do its work.
The conversation deepens as Wei shares how performing transformed his experience of living with HIV, and how he now creates workshops where people alchemize grief through drawing, movement, and story. Rather than purging emotion, he reframes it as transformation—like heat changing states, art moves feeling from stuck to seen.
We also have a song at the end. The story behind it is shared during the episode.
If you’re curious about synesthesia, performance craft, Taiwan’s arts ecosystem, or the simple, radical act of being present, this one’s for you. Press play, turn on the red light, and consider your own why. If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review—tell us a moment when art helped you transform something hard.
Unconventional Setup & Guest Intro
SPEAKER_09Okay, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Fraggle Rock Podcast. This is an extremely special episode. My first ever sitting down, laying down, red light special episode. All right. I'm very excited for the guest. Also have a co-host today here, Tracy. You might remember her from Longenou Parsons. It's a fantastic podcast. And today we have Way, who's extremely comfortable. I have never seen anybody this comfortable on the podcast. We got a red heating lamp, an infrared lamp, on my butts, another heating lamp, a foam roller on the neck. Oh, yeah, and it's on his butt. How do you feel right now, Way?
SPEAKER_01Comfortable. You look fucking comfortable. Yeah, yeah. I am. I am.
SPEAKER_09So I kind of uh jump started this podcast because I got scared that you and Tracy were about to go deep. Were you guys about to go deep or not really?
SPEAKER_02We were where were we? We were serving, we were just talking about me. Yeah, like like my what do I do, my performances, my productions.
The Performance That Felt Like A Mind
SPEAKER_09Well, that's a really, really good place to start. Why don't we just a little background, guys? I met this dude at Pasawali. Pasiwali. Yo, a big free indigenous music festival where I basically went to see Otikan, but there was a lot of good things going on. Yeah, yeah. Tracy was there. It was just magical. Yeah. It was magical. Yeah. And I met you late night. Late night. I was super drunk. And you were a super good listener. That was the first thing I loved about you. Really? I dropped all my female problems on you. And we were walking, and you just listened and you listened and you didn't say anything, but I could tell you were really listening, and I was like, whoa. Like nothing stands out more about a person than a person being a good listener. I I guess I am. Yeah. So yeah. And then I went and saw you perform last weekend.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. A very special performance.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. People asked me to describe it. I said it was like climbing in the subconscious dreams of three different people, or potentially one person. Because when we exist, when I exist, right, there are several versions of me in my psyche, I believe. Like maybe the feminine one, the youthful one, the wholesome one, the manly one, the angry one. We have all these different sides of our ego.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_09And I feel like that performance, I don't know. Can you break it down? Like what was going on? I still don't know.
SPEAKER_02But but like like from what you describe, you you you you felt a lot of things. Yeah. And yeah.
SPEAKER_09It was like it it appeared to be a battle, an internal, an internal, like a battle of the mind.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Inside your brain. Yes. Yeah, I think that's exactly what we want to create. Like to create a space for people to just calm down and feel inside your brain to because it's about synesthesia. Synedasia? Synestasia? Anesthesia? How do you say synesthasia? Right? I do I pronounce it. You got the ch I don't I don't think so.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. Say the English or the Chinese? Lienju. Not Lian, it's the inju. Yeah. It's like all right, I don't know. One more time. Alright. Lianju. I can Chai GPT is better. Chai GPT is not our sponsor, by the way. I wish it were. Okay. Hey, what's this in English? Lienju.
SPEAKER_07Lingye in English can be translated as consecutive or successive. It generally means things happening one after another in a sequence.
SPEAKER_02Is that right? No. I think as I'm sure I'm quite sure is this synesthesia.
SPEAKER_07Ah, got it. So you're thinking of synesthesia. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_07Absolutely. That's the word. Whoa.
SPEAKER_02So to like taste colours. Yeah, yeah. Like like when you see numbers, you see colors. Like you really, really see the colours. Yeah. And that four percent of people in the world, they have this sinist yeah. I've never even heard that word before.
SPEAKER_09Oh wait, this is a condition that people actually have? This is a real thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a real thing. It's a real thing where senses cross paths. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like hearing music.
SPEAKER_09Like okay, so I hear a rock song and then I see like purple.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. That's you know Cynthia from Wicked, the movie.
SPEAKER_09I never saw it. Uh I only just recently started. Is it a kids' movie?
SPEAKER_02Oh no, no, no. It's wait. Well, for kids and also for adults. I want to see, but I I haven't seen it. It's a musical, yeah.
SPEAKER_05This is useful too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Arena Grande, yeah. And what I want to say is Cynthia, she got this too. Yeah. There's an interview, like people sing like Doremi Faso, and then she sees colors. Yeah. Yeah, like Favel, her is I think it's blue. She sees blue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And this performance is uh inspired by a person who has synesthesia and his name is Daniel Tamet. He's from the Inca the UK. And he's he's he's a genius. Like he he he he uh his his math is like like really really good. Like he can memorize how is that pi like 3.1415 na na na na na yeah uh the he was once on TV and uh saying the numbers for five hours nonstop. Wow, yeah and he didn't miss any number.
SPEAKER_09Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So wait, so what was his relation to the performance?
SPEAKER_02Like we want to create a space that people can have their own synesthesia.
Discovering Synesthesia As Creative Spark
SPEAKER_09Yeah, like how can we? Because it was very color just okay, you guys have no idea what we're talking about. So I went and watched a performance. All I knew was it was performing arts, which I figured it was like dancing movement, which is a pretty good guess. And it was like P uh there was like a Chinese dialogue going on in the background through the speakers, and then three individuals, two girls and Wei, and there would be like talking, and then they would in the beginning, Wei was like sort of running, kind of, and then the two girls were moving around, and then like there was somebody talking in the background, and then maybe the talking would come to a halt and the lights would change. The lights was a huge part of it. I feel like the lighting was a very, very huge part of that performance, and so it definitely was very unclear what the journey was, but it was very clear that there was a journey going on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we want to because the the spoken words are very poetic.
SPEAKER_09The spoken words in the background, was that you guys?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09Okay, you guys had yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02Like in the beginning, we we were saying something nonsense.
SPEAKER_09It was all about like week days of the week. Yeah, times. Yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_02And and then a girl, one girl was was saying that like like like like in 2016, and then and then like like a diary. And then and then and then me, I was saying words backwards.
SPEAKER_09Really?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, whoa. Yeah, like no wonder I couldn't understand what the fuck is going on. Exactly, exactly. And another girl was saying like she's taking some words uh out from the sentence. Uh-huh. Oh wow. Yeah. Like, like I love you, she said, I you.
SPEAKER_08Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So he wanted to create like a nonsense orchestra of words.
SPEAKER_09It was so vulnerable that by the end I felt like I was in love with all three of you. Oh. Because what more authentic way to fall in love than to see complete and utter vulnerability? And I feel like that's what that performance was. Complete and utter vulnerability, and that's really the only way to fall in love, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow, that's beautiful to hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I know that for many people, this performance was quite challenging in a way. Yeah, like like quite experimental, like because people want to see stories, conversations, or like like like stories. Yeah. They want to understand. Something line linear and direct. Yeah, yeah. What's what's going on? But the the the director she wanted to, you know abandon all of this. Like we we want to create a world that we don't have to understand, we just feel, we just imagine, we just believing the the the thing. Like like for example, like like you walk in a street, sometimes you you suddenly think of I don't know, a c a a plan, I don't know, uh a tree, or something.
SPEAKER_09Or sometimes I open the silverware drawer and I pull out a fork, and then I suddenly think about a specific movie.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And we we want to make the audience, you know, to to to be with these imaginations or synesthesia. Yeah.
Lights, Language, And Vulnerability
SPEAKER_09It's very abnormal for Taiwan. And I remember thinking two things. One, this is the perfect way to spend my Friday night. Or like the a very valuable way, as opposed to going to bars and drinking or going to a fucking rave party, or I was like, this is authentic art. And then number two, I thought, this is not normal for Taiwanese people to watch something. It's like the movie Vanilla Sky. I don't know if you guys know that. Tom Cruise and Penelope Cruise. Basically, him traveling in and out of dreams. Or there was this cartoon movie a long time ago with Keonda Reeves, another thing. Very hard to follow. So you had to completely give up your addiction to concrete like direction and things that make sense and just be in the moment and be present. And I think that's I just couldn't believe the people in the crowd. I was just like wondering who are these people and how are they patient enough to sit through this? Yeah. But not in a bad way, like dedication. Like you could only be there for one reason and one reason only, which is appreciation of art.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_09Thank you. Yeah, yeah. So I was under the impression that you are a performing artist because our mutual friend Benjamin told me that. Yes. Yeah. Where do we start with you? Can I ask you how old you are? 34. Really?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_09Damn. Why why? I could have guessed 23.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you. Yeah, we we Asians look young. You're damn right, man.
SPEAKER_09I'm getting old quick, and there ain't nothing I can do to stop it.
SPEAKER_02But look at what I have done. Yeah. So many things. I cannot be 23 and then I forget about that sometimes.
SPEAKER_09You know, sometimes I'm like, damn, I'm turning 40.
SPEAKER_02You're turning 40.
SPEAKER_09Next month.
SPEAKER_02Oh. Happy birthday.
SPEAKER_09Thank you. She, this girl right here is I hope my mom's not listening. Probably giving me the best birthday gift I've ever been given in my life. Can I say it?
unknownYeah, sure.
SPEAKER_09Oh my god. She's buying me a trip to Thailand to go to a vipassana meditation retreat for six days.
SPEAKER_08Wow.
SPEAKER_09In exchange for boxing classes, which I will, I got you. I got you. I got you. We can do two classes per week for as long as it takes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_09She's been ranting about vipassana, and we interviewed a guy here on about vipassana, and it's I have a long relationship with meditation, and it really is beneficial. So do you know what that is, Vipassana?
SPEAKER_02Vipassana.
SPEAKER_03I don't know what Vipassana is a 10, or this one that I went to twice before, the um the same place in Thailand and Suratani. It's a 10-day silent meditation. So no talking. You give up your electronics, like your phone, for 10 days. Sounds like you might love it because we're teaching about rest. And it's very structured in a way that is super simple. You kind of go there and just kind of like a sheet. You hear a bell, you go meditate. You hear another bell, you go eat. Hear a bell, you go sleep. So yeah, it's been really is I like just came back from my second one, and both of them do mark really big, meaningful like milestones of my life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think we do have something similar in Taiwan. You do, you do for sure. Yeah, it's called Nei Gwen. Yeah, yeah. And it's in Jia and Gaoshong.
SPEAKER_09And Puli. I went to Puli once. Okay, okay. It wasn't really but you're right. But I did like I think I did it with a group for like a few days, but we were allowed to talk, but we meditated for eight hours a day. Eight hours a day was insane. And I remember it was just like pulling out. You guys know the show Sons of Anarchy?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_09Neither one of you? It's like gangster bikers, but I identified with it too much. My dad introduced me to it, and then I started like a fucking crime family, all based on a TV show, which is a whole nother subject. But but when I was meditating for like the eight hours a day, it kept pulling up images of these characters.
SPEAKER_02Eight hours nonstop.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, like four hours in the morning, lunch break, four hours in the afternoon, then dinner, then you're free for the evening. It was intense.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_09It was pretty like painful. Like it kind of like ayahuasca, like it would make you face things you don't really want to look at. And then you gotta sit there, process it, digest it, and hopefully let it go. Did you cry? No, I didn't cry. No. But in ayahuasca journeys, I cried like a bitch. Short. So oh, what I was trying to say is turning 40, it's easy to be like, oh, turning 40 just sucks. But what you just said was look at all the things you've done. Yeah. And sometimes you got to remember that as you age. Like, I'm turning 40, but I'm turning 40 after having like survived addiction, travel with the grateful dead, go into college, get a degree, travel the world. And it sounds like you have done a lot too. So when you've lived a life you're proud of, aging ain't really such a big deal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually what I'm processing right now. Because the for the past few years I I've been working, working, trying to, you know, build my career, and I have my own company, and then I want to be seen, I want to prove myself. And but now I think, you know, you know, uh look at what I have done and all the beautiful works I I I did, and I think I'm good. I I'm good. You're satisfied. Yeah, I'm satisfied. And yeah. Yeah.
Challenging Linear Stories
SPEAKER_09It's interesting. I think a lot of people get caught in that trap of needing to be successful, needing to be famous or needing to be rich. I don't know. I recently was hanging out with some DJs and they brought up a similar pattern, like this obsession. When it's actually kind of a good thing, but where you're like, you're so obsessed with being successful that you dedicate all day, every day to it. But then eventually you hit a point, and I think it tends to be in your mid to late 30s when you're like, wait a second, I don't have to be number one. I can be proud of my accomplishments. I don't have to be top dog. I think that's a really big realization you can only come to when you're like midlife. Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Shoppy agrees.
SPEAKER_03You wanted to prove something, I think that stood out for me. Like, yeah, I wonder what the belief is behind like what you know, what am I trying to prove? And what's a belief behind that?
SPEAKER_02I think as an artist, when we want to create something, we want to perform, we need money, you know. Yeah. Well, everybody needs money, but like to to produce a show, we need money. Yeah. And then in Taiwan, usually we uh apply for grants from the government. Yeah. Yeah. And to get the grants, you have to be someone. You have to prove that you have to dump something. You are good enough to to have the grants, to have the foundings. Yeah. So I've been working so hard to prove that I am I deserve it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's quite yeah, I had very frustrating moments last year because I applied for a residency. You guys know artists' residencies like a visa? Like some uh people they they they they have space, a space, and then sometimes they provide uh accommodations for artists to to stay there for a few months and then some studios where you can create no matter it's performing arts or visual arts, and you just go somewhere else and to experience the culture there and to create to you mean like other other country or Taiwan? They are there are residences in Taiwan and also in other countries. Yeah. And the Taiwanese government every year they support artists to go to different countries to do artist residences.
SPEAKER_09Oh, like they will finance you to go to a different country?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, whoa, and like the best one for performing artists is to go to Paris. There's a residency called Cité des Arts.
SPEAKER_09Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02And it's super, super good. Like you can go there for six months and they give you I'm better in number. San Shiba One.
SPEAKER_09San Shiba One. 300,000. Or is it 3 million?
SPEAKER_02Three. Not 3 million.
SPEAKER_09Jiggleing. Ugaling ma.
unknownA thousand.
SPEAKER_02Uga San Shu. San Shiba.
SPEAKER_09Oh, San Wan.
SPEAKER_02So you sorry. 380,000.
SPEAKER_09How do you say that in Chinese? 380,000?
SPEAKER_02San Shiba Wan.
SPEAKER_09San Shiba Wan. Oh. Yeah. That makes sense. San Shiba One. 380,000 and for you to do nothing. Hold on. So let's convert that to USD for the listeners. I think it's$10,000. Yeah, is it?$10,000. It's more than$10,000. Because it's the 80,000. The 80,000. Yeah, yeah. It's like 12,000. Yeah, to be an artist. That's why Taiwan is the shit. I mean, there's good and bad, but compared to my country, I love the government here.
SPEAKER_02Me too.
SPEAKER_09We'll get into that more later.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I almost got it. Yeah, I was in the there was like so many, so many interviews, and I got to the last, the final, the final interview. And then we like there were three artists, three Taiwanese artists were selected and sent to the residency in Paris, and they selected two artists.
SPEAKER_08Oh shit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, am I not working hard enough to prove myself that I am qualified to be the artist? You know, the artist that the government wants to send to Paris to do something. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What was that like for you?
Aging, Ambition, And Enoughness
SPEAKER_02Frustrating I don't know, but because because before I I would be like okay, you don't give me money and then I just create something by myself without the money from the government. Yeah, I've done that a lot. Like I also will work with some non-profit organizations. They provide some venues or some other resources for me to create not only performances, also workshops. And also I organize a residency in Taipei.
SPEAKER_09You are you organized it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09And it still exists?
SPEAKER_02Not anymore. Okay. The space is still there, but they don't do artist residency anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they have a room there in the building. Yeah. So we welcome like five, six artists from different countries.
SPEAKER_09Oh, so it was like international, not local. Whoa.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Like from France, from Mexico, from Australia, from Hong Kong. Yeah. And I did that for for for free. Yeah. And finally I I was like, yeah, maybe it's my time to, you know, somebody give me some money to do something to input something. Yeah. Sadly, it wasn't my time.
SPEAKER_09So you're 34 years old and you've been a performing artist the whole time?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say. Since I graduated, yeah.
SPEAKER_09My first question is when you graduated high school, did you go to university?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I went to Taipei University of the Arts. Of what? Of the art. Of the arts. Yeah. Taipei Ishu Dash. Taipei Ishu Dashi. You know, in the north?
SPEAKER_09Kwangdu. Oh, by Beito. Yeah. Oh. It's an art school. It's an art school. And what was the name of your major? Theater. Theater. You majored in theater.
SPEAKER_02Theater. And I majored in directing.
SPEAKER_09Majored in directing. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02We have two majors, directing, acting, and writing.
SPEAKER_09Whoa. You majored in directing. Yeah. I'm about to shoot a music video. Do you want to direct it?
SPEAKER_02Let's do it. Yeah. I'm being serious. Really? Yeah. But but but theater and and and and film filming is not yeah, it's a bit different. Alright, never mind. But but I I do yeah, yeah. I also do because now I I I'm I am uh running a company, so I I do the how's how's it uh promote promotion by myself. So I need to uh sh make some videos and on social media, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I hate that, it's time consuming.
SPEAKER_09So you got a degree in theater, majored in directing. Yeah. You did that directly after high school?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_09So you probably graduated when you were like 22, 23?
SPEAKER_0224.
SPEAKER_0924. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And since the age of 24, you've been a performing artist.
SPEAKER_0210 years.
SPEAKER_0910 years, damn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've been I've been teaching in Taiwan for 11. 11 years. 11 years. Wow. It's crazy. Oh, what what what do you teach? Currently, I'm finally proud of my job. There's nothing, there's no pride in saying I'm a Bushiban teacher. There's zero pride in that. But after 10 years, I had enough credentials to where I got a job teaching science at an international school.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. Chemistry, biology, physics. And they this is the funny part. One day they were like, All right, we're gonna start a new semester. Does anybody have a preference? I'm like, science. They're like, okay. And then the manager's like, Do you have a background in science? I'm like, nope. It's my worst subject. But I like it. So I went to the library and got like seven books and taught myself chemistry, physics, biology, the periodic table, atoms, molecules, compounds, all that stuff, and fell in love with it. And wow. Now it's so cool to be this late, not this late in life, but like later in life and develop a new love or a new hobby, a new passion, a new interest. I think it's really good for your brain. Yeah. And just something I perceived myself as being so terrible at, and now I'm teaching it. But I'm teaching it with vigor and excitement and enthusiasm and genuinely loving it. And I clearly I'm doing it right because the kids they love it, man. They love it. They love it. They like run to science class.
SPEAKER_02Okay. How how old are other kids?
SPEAKER_09Uh I teach grades one to eight. One to eight. One to eight. I make sure because when I was growing up, science was so terrible. It was like an old, grumpy white man, bald, stinking of coffee, hating his life, hating me. So I'm hating science, you know, because we pick up on that shit. Uh and so I grew up with like a hatred of science. Like, science sucks. But actual science is great. It just all comes down to your teacher. You should teach me science.
SPEAKER_05I'll teach you science. You should teach.
SPEAKER_09You know, there was only one other time I ever saw a performing artist, and it was one of my first Taiwanese friends, and they were doing like some very vulnerable movement performance. Memorable movement. That's about as far as I can elaborate.
SPEAKER_03But can you show us?
SPEAKER_09I'm getting there. All right, I'm feeling vulnerable. Just I'm not even doing it, I'm just saying it, and I'm already feeling vulnerable. She's been doing some coaching with me a little bit. That's the only way to grow. The only wow, I said something about love and vulnerability earlier. It's also the only place you can grow is through vulnerability, I think. And I think there's nothing more vulnerable than dancing, moving, or singing. Those kinds of activities.
SPEAKER_03Because you're like bring up the topic we were talking about earlier. Because you were saying how being an actor is like being a prostitute.
SPEAKER_01So what did you think about that? A high label prostitute.
SPEAKER_03High label, high value, yes, high-end prostitute.
SPEAKER_02Because we're selling our bodies. Yeah. But what you were saying that not only the bodies, hold on, catch me up. And I definitely don't. What were you guys talking about? Yeah, because because I say, I don't know, you say something like you are selling.
SPEAKER_03How did it come up? I think you're just like, oh.
SPEAKER_02My butts hurt.
SPEAKER_03We have all the lights out because your body is, you know, like what this is your work vessel. You're performing, you're being seen, it probably takes so much maintenance for this. And then you brought up, yeah, being an actor is kind of like using my body, so it's kind of like being a prostitute. A high end, high label.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also not sexual. It's yeah, sometimes it can be like audience. True. There are sex scenes in movies.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then you said, yeah, actor is the highest version of that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we are also selling our feelings, our imaginations, our yeah, we make beliefs.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09I get that. When an actor really, like a method actor really identifies with the character or cries or does whatever, then you're really selling a pure authentic emotion.
SPEAKER_03It's like a feelings prostitute.
SPEAKER_09It is. That makes more sense. That makes more sense. Feel me. Which must in the end leave you kind of empty. I'm just thinking about Brad Pitt for some reason. But like if you've spent your whole life selling authentic feelings, does that then deprive yourself of genuine authenticity? Do you know what I'm mean by that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I know what you mean by that. And I think it could go both ways, right? It's like if you can fill that, if giving out so much, but you don't fill your own emotional fulfillment void, which a lot of has, then I think it's easy to be like almost like outsourcing the identity for the outward validation.
SPEAKER_09Like that makes sense. Yeah, I think that's kind of what I was trying to say is like if your truth starts being coming something you sell, then maybe you start losing the ability to identify with your truth on an on an honest level. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I feel like actors, they probably probably have to do a lot of inner work to maintain their mental health, too. Some of my stars, right? Performing if you're putting so much out there, how do you fill your own cup?
Building Community Without Funding
SPEAKER_02Yeah. There's also another description of actors, I heard, is in in Mandarin, it's like I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are the athletes, athletes, emotions, and sensations, yeah, and feelings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're right. Because people often ask me a question that how do you get out of the characters? Yeah. Because sometimes we we have to you know be in these really strong emotions. And for example, I I had a solo show, it was about death. Yeah, a young man who was dying. So he was like shouting and and you know, so much love and hate inside him. Yeah, people ask me how how yeah, how how do you get into the character and how do you get out of the character? Yeah. Getting out might be dangerous, so yeah. But I think from our trainings, if we know how to get into it, we know how to get out of it. Yeah, it's like workout, yeah, like training your muscles.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like a practice. It's interesting because when you say that, it makes me think of healers. Like, I actually just went to one in the mountains of Ulai, and it's like she went into my body to kind of feel out, you know, my emotions and then out. And then afterwards, she was like, I need to nap. Like, I'm so tired. It's kind of similar. How did she get into your so she she's worked with like in her lineage, her ascendant teachers, and it's like a way of channeling, and it takes you know many years to kind of practice and master. But I just real you know, I saw how tired she was after, but I it was really potent. Because in a way, when you're performing all those emotions for others to feel, it's almost like they take on your body, and yeah, like you must be exhausting, and then your body's showing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.
SPEAKER_09Totally, it's totally totally, it's only yeah, like any kind of empath or shaman or therapist, right? They're all taking on everything from their client or their patient. You mean, you mean meet me. No, like what she's talking about, but like if you're doing spiritual or emotional healing work for somebody else, you're gonna kind of have to take all that in you to heal them, right? And then and then you have to somehow get it out of you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Actually, I have some experiences about this, like, because I I've been working on HIV AIs, the disease for many years, and I did some workshops, like healing workshops for people living with HIV. Yeah, and often they were like crying and then the their emotions, you know, in the room, and I I had to take it, I had to yeah, transform the emotions into something. But like we are talking about like how to uh take it in and how to take it out, but for me it's more like how to transform it. Yeah. For them, for them and also for myself.
SPEAKER_09So, oh, so that's a totally different approach, like alchemizing it. Instead of trying to remove it and replace it, you're talking about transforming it.
SPEAKER_02But for me, there's no removing or replacing, it's like it's there and you just transform it. Like we look at it in a different way.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. I'm thinking about like oh, she saw a healer. So why would you normally go see a healer? Maybe like anxiety or depression or trauma or something like that. So I would think normally a healer or a counselor would try to now I feel like I'm wrong already, remove it and replace it. But now I'm thinking, oh no, it's more about processing it, helping you process it. And actually, through processing it, you're gonna transform it into oh, I now accept this as part of me because I accept it, I don't reject it because I don't reject it, there's no resistance, and I'm at peace.
Acting As Emotional Athletics
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah, you can't remove who you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And because that's why I believe in performing arts. Well, I just say that. Wow, wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think once performing arts saved me. Yeah. Because I am also living with HIV and I did a show, a solo show about my own story five years ago, and then I felt the power, the that being heard on the stage, being understood on the stage, it was so powerful for me. Like I'm not alone. Yeah, yeah. And on the stage I could transform all my sorrows, all my pain into something, into something beautiful, into art. Yeah. So that's why later I wanted to give this power, this strength to to people, to other individuals living with HIV. Yeah, so that's why I did lots of empowering workshops, yeah, to provide, to create a space for them to tell their own stories. Yeah. And of course there was one many moments I was like, oh my god, I am not a therapist or something, I'm not professional. How could I take them? But then I believe in art. Like art can transform their their pain into something. Yeah, yeah. And and and it i it worked.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It worked.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like in healing work, therapist, like somatic worker or or whatever, like we say alchemizing or pain. And yeah, just so so cool to see how you as a performing artist are doing that. And it's, you know, it sounds like you're doing it from such a heart-led, heartfelt place. And I'm sure your audience can feel that. And also, I just want to acknowledge the courage, like the insane amount of courage to just show up so authentically. Because that's not easy. And I think I'm on the path of that. Of like, you know, like the more we hide, it's almost like we we like need to we can't just take it in. We have to put it out there, and it goes from yeah, something that's hard, heavy, painful, like you said, turning it into something beautiful. And that takes so much presence and patience, just staying with those hard emotions. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's not easy. It's not easy. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Now we're losing our host.
SPEAKER_03Pee break.
SPEAKER_02Pea break. Pea break. Let's continue.
SPEAKER_03Let's continue. Without him, I feel more like loser.
SPEAKER_02So what what do you do?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I guess it's kind of related. So I used to be a UX designer. So actually uh user experience designer making apps for kids. And then that was like a 905 job. I was a digital nomad. And then I quit. I started the path of coaching. But when I was learning it, it was like I felt I was, you know, really discovering myself. And also healing comes out of when you're when you are doing something, right? When you're discovering yourself, creating, or just in flow or movement. And now I'm dabbling in different things. But one of the things that I do is, yeah, I I coach clients, but I've really been drawn to healing arts and like like visual arts. So Ashley have, I would love to give you this journal. I actually gave one to Chris. He hasn't used it yet. But when you said, um, wait, was that how do you say that word? Since yeah. Yeah. So that the journal that I created, it's basically how I process my emotions. Like I'll draw an outline of my body and then be like, okay, like this, maybe like grief is coming up. Draw grief. How does it look like? How does it feel? The color, shape, texture. So I I love doing that for myself. And that's like my favorite way to coach clients. It's like really being present with their energy and be like, okay, can you, you know, locate it, be with it, breathe into it? What color comes up? Maybe what what messages, like what words come up even. And then, yeah, certain it's like bringing out the unseen, the inner world. Yeah. So I so it's really interesting what you do. It's like you're the art, and then people, it's like the opposite way, you know. I'm like guiding them to create it, and then you're like the c they're consuming it and they feel it. So it's kind of like that.
SPEAKER_02No, I also did the kind of the same thing that in my workshops. I made them draw.
SPEAKER_04Can we do a collab? We should. We should. We should. I see why you can probably do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because drawing is so so healing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, drawing is is so it's so healing. And before we were verbal, we were visual, right? And it's like we we we often so we so often live in our heads, we try to like figure out why, understand it, intellectualize our feelings. But yeah, drawing, we're not not, it doesn't have to make sense. And then you look at it after, then maybe you put meaning behind it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but it's I feel like it's more embodied, like the movement, the flow, the colors. Yes, embody. What does it mean to you?
Getting Into And Out Of Characters
SPEAKER_02Embody means I uh embody. What does it mean? It means a lot.
SPEAKER_03To you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because me as a performer, always embodying something. Yeah, yeah. Embody.
SPEAKER_03What are you embodying right now? If you just take like a deep breath in this in this environment.
SPEAKER_02Myself, you guys, this vibe, I'm embodying this presence.
SPEAKER_03Embodying presence.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's a good one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And also theater, because it's life. So it's the presence of art. The art of presence.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Are you just coming up with that now? Art of presence, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03When you perform, yeah, it's the art of presence. Yeah. Being present on stage in your body and with with everyone watching you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03All the eyes. Yeah. Can you can you like describe how that feels like when you're on stage?
SPEAKER_02It's because every show is different. Yeah. Because your own condition, maybe you are more tired today, maybe you are more energetic today, and maybe the audience, they are I don't know, their energy can really affect the performance. Yeah. It's like a conversation between the stage and the audience. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's it's working with different unknown energies.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, such an art.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a word in in Mandarin, we say and then liang.
SPEAKER_03Like energy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like a chi.
SPEAKER_03And it's like the texture, like you feel the energy each time you perform on stage. It's different.
SPEAKER_02It's different, it's different. And for me, sometimes I feel the time, time is different.
SPEAKER_03What do you mean?
SPEAKER_02Sometimes I feel oh my god, the show is so long. Why am I what am I doing here? And and and it's so long. But sometimes it's like one second, boom, the show is done. Yeah. And for me, that's the most precious moment. Like you didn't think about time. You just put yourself there on the stage. You perform with your with your body, with your energy, with your sensation, emotions. Being truly present. Yeah. Presence. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09This book I've been reading, The Power of Now, says all suffering is the result of perception of time. Yeah. Past and future. And then let go of the past and the future, you're present.
SPEAKER_00Say that, okay?
SPEAKER_09In the book, in this book, The Power of Now, it says suffering is the result of perception of time. When you're living in the past or you're living in the future, you're experiencing emotions of the ego. But when you let go of the past and you let go of the future and you're truly present, it's impossible to be unhappy.
SPEAKER_05Wow. I'm paraphrasing.
SPEAKER_09Wow. Wow. Wow.
SPEAKER_03Really relatable. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. So I mean trying to catch yourself every day and like you're like, oh shit, I'm in the future. Oh shit, I'm in the past. And like trying to yank yourself out of that is very difficult. But when you're performing or when I'm running or like boxing is a great thing, when you have to be a hundred percent on, you can't think about time. Yeah, yeah. You have to be on. Yeah. And that's the only time you're like really truly present. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And truly free, right? Yes. When you're truly present, you're truly free.
SPEAKER_01Free.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Free.
SPEAKER_03That makes me think of like it's when you're on stage, it makes me think like it's actually you practicing meditating, but you're performing as a meditation because meditation can be in many right.
SPEAKER_09Gardening can be meditation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_02When do you feel you're free?
SPEAKER_03Good question. Wow. I think like just as you say the word and I'm like, you know, connecting with it, then I embody it. Like I feel free right now.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
Transforming Pain Through Art
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_03I think it's because of your voice. Can you say that again?
SPEAKER_02Say what?
SPEAKER_03When do you feel free?
SPEAKER_02When do you feel free?
SPEAKER_03Oh. When?
SPEAKER_09It's probably the same for everybody, but when you're fully engrossed in a project, it doesn't have to be a project, it could be meditation. But when you're fully engrossed, for me it'd be like reading or running or boxing or cold jumping in the cold ass river, right? You can't think about things. That's called a river. We can't. Thinking is the opposite of freedom. Thinking. Well, there's constructive thinking, right? But like ruminating is the opposite of freedom. Ruminating is like, oh, I gotta go to work tomorrow. All the time do I gotta get up for work? Oh, what do I gotta do when I get to work? Like thinking over and over again. But when you're like running and it's so hard you can't think, or when you're acting, you must be, or when I'm writing music, you know, like there's no space.
SPEAKER_03Interesting. Yeah, I guess it that makes me think of the word flow. Like when you're in flow, you feel free. But also the word safety comes up for me. It's like when I feel safe, then I feel, yeah, I'm just being and I can be free too. And and that makes me curious about like how do you how do you relate to feeling safe in your body when you're on stage?
SPEAKER_02A lot of practice and yeah, yeah, because it's it can be quite dangerous on stage physically, mentally. Yeah. So you need to train yourself. You need to have your own technique to go onto the stage. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What's your technique? What's your like prep? Like, yeah, so curious to know.
SPEAKER_02But but you know, you know, uh you guys don't know, but like I'm famous for like burning myself, like giving myself 200% on the stage. Not not this show, it's just so uh grease. Yeah, this this is what this one was like very slow, very poetic. But usually I I do shows like with 200% energy and yeah, I just burning myself and some of your more famous ones like I read about in your biography?
SPEAKER_09Which one? Oh man, I got all the notes, but they're in my phone, which I don't have right now. I want to get to all that. I have a whole set of questions and things I want to ask you after reading your biography. But I'm kind of letting Tracy take the take the wheel right now.
SPEAKER_02But did I answer to the question then?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what's my technique to yeah, like feeling safe in your body and then the technique to feel that safety? Yeah, I guess like I'm curious to know how do you take care of yourself before and after?
SPEAKER_02Because it's the warm-up is really important for performers. Yeah, and different performers have different warm-ups. Yeah. For me, like I have a voice technique, and also I do yoga to warm up my my body, and the voice technique to warm up my voice, and I need to be 100% sure about my my my lines. Yeah, so I practice, I practice, practice, practice. And then the most difficult part is you practice, you prepare, but then you have to let everything go on the stage.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we often say a good actor, the reason why he or she is good is he or she is not acting. The actor just be in the presence.
SPEAKER_03The being.
SPEAKER_02The being, yeah, yeah. Free on the stage. Yeah, yeah. So well, there are maybe, maybe trainings, techniques, it's more like relaxing, how to relax.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, relax the muscle.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And it's like, I guess if you look at performing not as like a job, like if you just go up there be like, actually, I'm just playing. I'm just like, yeah, being. That's I think the perspective probably that does that help.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure, sure, sure.
SPEAKER_03That makes me think of you going from rap to like singing soul. It was cut as kind of like a, you know, like this efforting energy transforming into a more, you know, like flowy, expressive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, tell me. I I don't know what you do.
SPEAKER_09Like that's one thing I do is I rap. Okay. I produce beats, which I've been playing guitar and African djembe for like 20 years now, I guess. And used to perform in the States. Used to have a band in the States, which helped me get through a lot of my heroin addiction. Because I wrote like a dozen songs about that, and that and performing that really helped me transform my addiction into art, which seems strangely relevant right now.
SPEAKER_04Very yeah, alchemizing those arts.
Safety, Technique, And Letting Go
SPEAKER_09And then after coming to Taiwan and like started rapping by accident, I kind of realized that like I could take the same motions I do when I hit a drum, but do it with my mouth. And so I started rapping. And then, yeah, recently I've been producing beats and then rapping over top of it. And then like a week or two ago, I was jamming and producing with a friend, and we made a beat. I was like, yo, pick up your guitar. Now play that beat, but play it on your guitar. And he did. I started rapping, and then the rapping started changing to kind of like singing. And then I was like, whoa, what just happened? He's like, that was soul, brother. And I'm like, damn. And I played it for Tracy and she loved it. And so now I'm gonna try to like start doing a little bit more singing along with the rapping. Yeah, and just trying to get like an EP together that I can release because I got quite a few recorded songs now. I'm proud of. Wow. Yeah. Working on one. The one I'm almost finished with now is about an upcoming guest named her. That I sort of like how do I infatuationly? That's not a word, right? You know what I'm trying to say? Infatuation fell in love with. Fell in love with through infatuation. Yeah. Now it feels like I'm rapping.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. That's what I do.
SPEAKER_09But anyway, I fell really hard for this girl. And then and then I thought it was gonna happen. So I manifested every night, and I'm like, believing in the power of manifestation. And if I just write it, it will become real. Did that, and I thought it was. And then I just nothing happened. So I turned it into a song and wrote a song about it. But now we're like friends. She's coming on the podcast soon, and the song's almost done. And it's a shout out to her. You're gonna sing on the song and be in the music video. Maybe this guy's gonna direct it. It's all gonna happen. Even if I don't get you, I'm getting a great, beautiful piece of art out of it. And I think like that's the best thing to do with anything in life. We transform positive or negative. It's almost like it's like magicians. I mean, that's that's the best thing about something bad happening to you is what you can transform it into, what you can turn it into. Yeah, you can sit there and suffer, you can let it consume you, or you can use it as fuel for creation.
SPEAKER_03Creating beauty, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But but but why? I mean, I mean, what do we like?
SPEAKER_03Why do we innately do this? Why?
SPEAKER_09Or yeah, like let him finish this question.
SPEAKER_02It's very hardcore this this question. Like, like why? Like what what do you get after you transform something into art? And what I I I did answer this question like like what I just share, I I feel the power of being understood, being heard. But I I don't know, sometimes I I I I lose that. I don't feel that anymore. But so what what's the yeah, what what's purpose? Yeah, what's what's the repetition?
SPEAKER_09Once you've repeated something many, many times, maybe you start to become desensitized or numb to it. But me having freshly wrote this song, I can tell you it went from like with the girl, an obsession, a certainty, and then sort of like failure. Like it didn't happen the way I thought, and then suffering. And then I'm sitting here and I'm suffering, and then like, wait, I can do something with the suffering, I can use this energy to create. And then it went from a feeling of suffering to a piece of art. I'm now creating, and now that suffering is completely left me. Cause now when I think about her or that situation, I'm thinking about the song. I'm thinking about the creation. So I no longer think of that pain, actually, it's completely gone. Like the whole thing is gone because now I just see that chapter as the song, the story, the story I'm telling through the song.
SPEAKER_02But at the same time, do you also have this desire to to because you're talking all about yourself inside yourself, the journey inside yourself, but do you also have this desire to share it with people? Does that also motivation for you to write this song? Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean the desire of sharing.
Presence, Flow, And Freedom
SPEAKER_09When I first started writing, I think it was just Just like, oh, I found a way to get it out. Oh, I found an outlet. But then as the song actually starts coming together and I get like verse one done, I kind of come up with a chorus, then I'm like excited. And then Tracy comes over and I'm like, hey, she's like, I want to hear it. I'm like, cool. And then she's like, I like it. And I'm like, oh, maybe I should share it with somebody else. And then once I realize it's actually like decent, then I'm like, oh, now I have a reason to finish it. I should share it with people. And this specifically is a really funny thing because everybody knows the girl and me. So it's just gonna be it's like drama, but it's also comedy. I think. I think there's a lot of comedy in this situation.
SPEAKER_03Very an anecdotal.
SPEAKER_09What's that mean? Anecdotal.
SPEAKER_03I don't know.
SPEAKER_09It's just it's just so funny because normally normally this is something people you would hide.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You would hide this.
SPEAKER_09You wouldn't want anybody to know because you're ashamed. I'm like, fuck it. I'm making a song. I want everybody to know that I did everything to get this girl and I didn't. And I'm telling everybody.
SPEAKER_04Freedom.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's because we have prostitutes.
SPEAKER_01Positives are just like attention. Oh yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I wonder because earlier you you said a very profound why, and then you said, Oh, I forgot what you said, but you're like, oh, what was it? The power of it was um You looked really Asian when you did that. I am Asian. Fuck you. You just did this with your hands. You said that. So um But I can I can kind of hear your internal struggle as a artist who's performing and you're trying to make money from it. You had such a strong why before, then now you're like performing to, you know, get the grants, like, you know, like make money, like performing for people. It in it's hiring.
SPEAKER_09It's so it's like you were asking the question like why why do you work so hard? Or he was asking that.
SPEAKER_03He he asked you like why. Why why do you kind of just create why do you want to share it?
SPEAKER_09Yeah. But earlier he was expressing his like he was pushing himself. And like why? And then his answer was money.
SPEAKER_03No, but but he said like when he was uh when he moved all the pain from everybody and put it out there, like that was a why. You could display yeah, this pain processing, transforming it into beauty. That sounded like origin, like your initial why. And yeah, what's what's your why now?
SPEAKER_02Oh, what's your why now as opposed to the past? That's a good question. That's why I ask why.
SPEAKER_09The best way to understand yourself is by understanding other people, eh?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I ooh, uh cheers.
SPEAKER_09You still got do you need anything? I do. And like we can oh yeah, okay. Do you want yeah, we can take a break for sure. Let's take a break. Really? Okay. Yeah, because we're about to get.
SPEAKER_03I wanna know your why.
SPEAKER_09We're about to go. We'll be back soon for the why next episode.
SPEAKER_02We're gonna tell you why.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, because I think it's got the why.
SPEAKER_08When I look inside your eye, I realize you're too scared to drive. I can't just walk away. I got something inside my car telling me there's something there, telling me not to give up. Even when everything and everyone else does walk away. Now, no, it won't happen. So y'all can just carry on and keep laughing. I've been told it all, but it won't fall down this wall and fade away. From my heart, I'm raw and dedicated. Refuse to walk away. Over medicated with injection. I can't keep it bait. I invest the best. The rest will have to be organic. But the truth is stuck in my chest, and I'm feeling manic. Delusional fantasies, pressing perplexity into panic.
SPEAKER_06I was convinced I found a queen that could ground me king.
Why We Share: From Private To Public
SPEAKER_08I was convinced I found a queen that could ground me. I was convinced I found a queen that could ground me king. I was convinced I found a queen. I was convinced I had a chance. Put my cards right, manifest the best case scenario, the movie where we get together, then we ride forever. I could see it all in my mind, manifesting every night. Visualizing a life of beauty, a fantasy, a unity, ruling like a bringing queen and rising to a higher being. I might be delusional. You thinking I'm suitable, but if we were back to back, attacking rap, it would be beautiful. Leave a rhyme to last till the end of time. Just admit what it is that you deny. Look me in my eyes and admit you're afraid. Step up to the plate and be brave. Then we can't take this truth to our graves. I was convinced to find a queen that could crown me king. Yeah, I was convinced, I was convinced, I was convinced, I was convinced, I was convinced, I was convinced to find a queen that could crown me king. I was convinced I found a queen. In the beginning I had so much hope. I had support and all these people at my back. It was unrealistic and completely delusional. But I refused to lose hope. I refused to walk away.
SPEAKER_09But after so much time, we went our separate ways. I mean it's looking a little different now. But I think the future of this is completely uncertain. I can only guarantee this. During this whole time, I've been learning and growing, becoming a better version of myself. So thank you.