HIV, Sexuality, and Boundaries: A Conversation with Tseng Chih Wei

Tseng Chih Wei is a Taiwanese queer performance artist who has been living with HIV for almost ten years. In this episode, we talk about what that journey has been like—the challenges, the stigma, and also the progress that’s been made in treatment. Wei also shares about the workshops he runs now, supporting people living with HIV/AIDS and helping them navigate the trauma and judgment that can come with it.

He opens up about an autobiographical stage piece where he publicly reveals his HIV status. We also get into what it means to “feel sexy again” without going to extremes, how chemsex can sometimes turn intimacy into something empty, and why consent and boundaries are so important for building real trust.

Along the way, we touch on power, patriarchy, and queer identity, and break down terms like top, bottom, versatile, queer, and non-binary. If this resonates with you, share it with someone who might need to hear it—and don’t forget to leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Follow Tseng Chih Wei on IG: https://www.instagram.com/tseng_chih_wei/

Follow us on IG: https://www.instagram.com/the_fragle_rok_podcast/

Transcript

Welcome And Warm Up

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 0:01

Okay, dude.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

We were not real.

SPEAKER_07 0:08

We were.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Ladies. Right. Gentlemen. Alright. How you doing, way? Good. Feel free.

SPEAKER_05 0:16

Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:18

Talked about that earlier, huh? Liberation through art. Okay, so we got a lot of the small talk out of the way. And I read your bio.

unknown 0:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

Wow. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Where to start. And I guess the first thing that stuck out to me that I didn't know. Hmm. Yeah, we'll start there.

Living With HIV For Ten Years

SPEAKER_05 0:49

Okay. So you do AIDS HIV work. Yeah, I do. Okay. How did that start? If you're comfortable talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

I am. I am. Okay. Because I am leaving with HIV, HIV positive. Uh-huh. Actually, oh wow. In a few days, it will be 10 years. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:13

So since you said you've been a performing artist also for 10 years. Yes. Wow. So that started when that started.

SPEAKER_06 1:20

Mm-mm-mm-mm.

SPEAKER_05 1:21

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

And but for like four or five years, I I was always hiding it. Because the stigma was so strong.

U Equals U Explained Simply

SPEAKER_02 1:32

You know, U equals U?

SPEAKER_05 1:35

U equals U?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yeah. No. That's it means undetectable equals untransmittable. Uh-huh. Yeah. If you a person if a person living with HIV takes the medicine every day, and then you can control the virus. And that the equipment cannot detect it.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Yeah. So detectable, it means there's no chance to transmit through sex. Really? Even unsafe sex. Zero percent.

SPEAKER_05 2:11

Is that a newer development in technology? Like is that more of a recent thing?

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Since 2018.

SPEAKER_05 2:19

Since so pretty very recent.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:22

Wow. So since 2018, the medication has gotten so good.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:26

But now you can basically live like a normal person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So it was after that.

Paris Medication Struggles And Dating

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Well, back then I was living in Paris. And then when you got it? No, that was I got it before moving to Paris. I got it in 2016 and I moved to Paris in 2018. Yeah. And I was having trouble having the medication in Paris. So that's why I started asking for help and telling people that I am positive. Yeah. Also to the guys I met, like before sex, I told them I'm HIV positive. That must have been so hard. Yeah. Like some of them they block me or they try to be okay with it, but then slowly they disappear. Wow. Yeah. So I had a very difficult time in Paris with the medication, with the relationships. And then I came back to Taiwan. Yeah. Well actually I wanted to, you know, move back to Paris again, but then COVID.

SPEAKER_05 3:58

Uh-huh. You said 2016?

SPEAKER_02 4:02

16, I got it. And then 2018 you went to Paris. And then you came how long were you in Paris? I actually my visa expired because it was one year working holiday visa. Yeah. So I I came back to Taiwan in 2019. But I still had some French Taiwanese co-productions, like international collaborations. Yeah. So I travel a lot to France. Yeah. And I was still trying to develop my career there. Yeah. But then COVID hit. So like everything stopped.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

That was in 2019?

SPEAKER_02 4:45

That was in 2020.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

2020.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Yeah. COVID. Yeah. But then I started to be an artist, started to create. And then because you you know in Taiwan there was in 2020 there was no lockdown. People could still go out to to well uh like like only for two or three months that theaters or public spaces were shut down. But then after two or three months, it was okay in Taiwan. And back then the government had uh some foundings, some money to to support artists. So that's how

Returning To Taiwan And Making Art

SPEAKER_02 5:33

I started. I applied to that, I got some money, and then I say to myself, I cannot go to I I cannot have my career in Paris when uh developed my career here back in Taiwan. Yeah. And then the first story I wanted to tell it's about my story of HIV. Yeah, so I did my first solo about the stories. Yeah, I revealed my status on the stage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:13

Wow. Was that your autobiographical performance? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what what was that what was that performance like? Was it like dance? Was it spoken? Was it poetical?

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Like mixed, like theater acting and dancing. I was performing in the theatrical thinkers uh theater, Sichu Chang, and it's just it's a very special venue that there's a bookshelf, like really high, like two floors high. Damn. And I climb on it. Yeah, almost like a circus. Uh-huh. Sorry. And also there's uh like a how'd you say there's a stair. It goes up to somewhere. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:07

Like a curly stairwell. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

And then there's a the uh how do you call that like a balcony there?

SPEAKER_05 7:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

And then I I design something like uh how do you call that in English?

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Okay. You're stopping me on all these words. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

No, no. Tang Cho Chen. Well, I make it like a circus. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was moving around everywhere, and you did the whole thing by yourself? By myself.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

There was nobody else in it.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

There was uh dramaturge. You know what's dramaturge? No, it's like we have playwright, director. Sometimes in a production we have dramaturge to help the director to create, to give advice. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so I had somebody to help me. But I wrote it, I directed it, I performed in it. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:09

Did you like, is there a way to like publish it or anything?

SPEAKER_02 8:15

You know, it means the I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 8:17

Like, like, did you like is it like available in video form or in like a published script, or was it just like a one-time performance?

SPEAKER_02 8:27

It's just a one-time performance. Yeah. But but then it's there there's a 10-minute monologue in the show that I reveal everything about this process since I got tested HIV positive and then the story in Paris, and then till now all the struggle with my family, with my friends, with my romantic relationships, like I put everything in a 10-minute monologue. Damn. Yeah. But after I performed this monologue in many, many different ways.

Touch Based Workshops For Healing

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah. Like because after the performance, I started to weigh work with non-profit organizations of HIVAs, and I did a lot of empowering workshops for people living with HIV. Yeah. For like to create a space for them to tell their own stories, and also there were some explorations about tactile sensation. Yeah. And something very sexual. Really? Uh-huh. Like we touch each other in the workshop. Huh. Yeah. To discover your body. How is like touching it being touched for you? Wow. And why? Because usually this virus is transmitted through sex. Right. Yeah. So the end the goal of this practice is to to go back to the scene, the sex where you got transmitted.

SPEAKER_05 10:33

Holy shit. So you have people coming to this workshop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody has it. Yeah. And then the purpose is to revisit the moment when you got it.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I it it was like a I didn't force them to, you know, let's talk about the moment you got it. Yeah. No, no, no. It was like an invitation. Like first I I did uh the exploration of of touching and being touched, and then I invited them to write something about intimacy. But before that, I shared my own story, and it was about HIV, yeah. And then they naturally, you know, thought about their own experiences. Yeah. So they we share to each other the stories. And people cry like of course. Yeah, yeah. It's they don't really have a chance like this to tell these stories. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the stigma in the society and yeah. So a lot of emotions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then later, yeah, like earlier we talked about drawing. Uh-huh. Yeah. I invited them to draw together. It was like I made them lie down on a big paper and then imagine that you're dead. Yeah. And people will draw around you while I was reading their stories again.

SPEAKER_05 12:33

Whoa. Yeah. Like an epilogue. Epilogue, what's that? That's like after you die, the the piece of paper and the shape.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

unknown 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

In Mandary we say how do we say. Oh my god, you got to edit it. This is some chow. Go her child. Okay, I got it. In Mandarin we say Naihe Chow.

SPEAKER_05 13:09

Naihe Chow.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Yeah, it's a bridge that after you die, you're gonna cross this bridge. And then you will have another life. You will totally reborn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the process is like I am bringing them across this bridge. Ah through reading their stories, through other participants drawing around you. Yeah. And when it's done, because the person is still lying there. And when it's done, I ask the person imagine that you're leaving your soul is leaving this dead body. And then you will stand up and then look back on these drawings.

unknown 14:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

And then that there's a there's a because we also draw the body shape, like uh how to say like like an accident happened, like the police draw the body shape, and so the person see the shape and the drawing, and then the person can say something to this dead body, and the person write it down.

SPEAKER_05 14:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's a beautiful moment. Yeah, yeah, really beautiful moment.

Writing Your Own Obituary Question

SPEAKER_05 14:38

I've read a few books that were like write your obituary or write your yeah, I think obituary is the word. Like after you die, what will be written about you? Uh write it now how you want it to be written, so that you can see how you want to live the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

How you want to be written. Oh shit. I don't know how to answer this question yet, but I want to hear. Let me think about it. You go first.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

Writer, musician, teacher, husband, father, humble, kind, and always willing to help those who need it. It's pretty simple, but I think that I just want to be a wholesome person. Yeah. And those like writing and music, those are like my hobbies that I love. Yeah. I think that's enough without being greedy.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

You know? Yeah. That's how you want to be remembered.

SPEAKER_05 16:10

Yeah. I have that would be good. I would be okay with that. Compared to where you know, it's better than having died a drug addict or a criminal or a gangster. Be much better to die the man I now am than the man I once was. Yeah. It's definitely something to think about. Yeah. Another one I think this was Tuesdays with Maury was like, imagine you're on your deathbed, and there's all these people standing around you, and they're each person represents a dream you were going to accomplish, but didn't. Like the one that said you were going to publish a book, the one that said you were going to publish a song, the one that said you're going to be a football player, you were going to be this, you're going to be that. Or like, imagine that so you can give you direction now in your life.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

This is what this is uh it was from a book.

SPEAKER_05 17:17

A book, okay. Tuesdays with Maury, I think it was. This author wrote a lot of good books, and they were all about like getting old and dying and trying to reflect on your death during your life so that you can actually get a second chance at life. Because if you kind of live through your death now, then that can give you direction for how you want to live your life. Like if you were like if you were gonna die tomorrow, what would you do now? How would you spend your last day? Or if you're gonna die in one year, that's good perspective. If you're gonna die in one year, like what would you be doing for your last year?

SPEAKER_02 17:59

That's a hard

Inspired Sex And The Body Center

SPEAKER_02 18:00

one.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

I want to have sex, me too, especially after today. Fuck.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

I mean, I mean good sex, like inspiring sex. I want inspiring sex.

SPEAKER_05 18:13

Oh, you mean love or inspiring sex?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

I think it's mixed. Like what is yeah, passion there, inspiring sex, like inspired this inspiring sex, you feel inspired, not physically, not only physically, also mentally, like like you are inspired, like a raging tiger that's ready to chase its dreams.

SPEAKER_05 18:38

Yeah, I get that. I felt that a while ago.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Magical, magical, magical. Because before, I always say I need to be in a place that makes me horny.

SPEAKER_07 19:01

Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

I I need to be horny to to to I don't know. I don't yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:09

Horny to do what?

SPEAKER_02 19:10

To do things. Like yeah, every anything like like like a like a like an engine, like a okay, cuz you know, in in acting, we we have there's an acting technique. Uh-huh. Uh we we have three centers in our bodies. Like the brain is the thinking center, and the heart is feeling center, and your pelvis here is the willing center. Willing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I I always feel this willing center.

SPEAKER_05 19:52

You like sex, huh?

SPEAKER_02 19:56

I did. You did. You don't now? You didn't. Are we going there? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 20:01

You already took it there. And like you already know what I went through today. So, like, my mind's all fucked up. So I'm like, I've never been put through a situation like that before.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

I'm gonna talk about it. We should, eh? We can talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 20:15

As long as I don't say names, I guess it's okay. Yeah, and it will lead, yeah. Let's do it. That's that's doing

The Sake Bath Consent Story

SPEAKER_05 20:20

it, that's doing it. And it will kind of lead back to one of your workshops as well. Exactly. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, so there's a female here recently. She asked me to talk take sake bath, which apparently has health benefits. I didn't know this. You have you ever heard that?

unknown 20:41

Never.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

Maybe it wasn't even true.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

But like, but like maybe have.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

But but um like like like sake, only sake.

SPEAKER_05 20:56

That's what I thought. So I was picturing a bathtub filled with sake. I'm like, that's gonna be like a $10,000 bathtub. No, no, no. It's a bathtub with like a half a bottle of sake mixed in with the water. Not a lot of sake. So she wants to take a sake bath. I get tired, I go to sleep, she goes to sleep, wake up today, I go to work, I come home. Hey, you want to take a sake bath? I'm like, I don't know, I need a nap. Come on, let's take a sake bath. I don't want to. Why? Are we gonna do it naked? Yes. That's why I don't want to. Why? Because I will get sexually aroused. That's okay. I'm like, no, it's not. So why not? I'm like, because when I is sexually aroused, I want to have sex. It's okay. It's something you can work on. I don't know, but this is something you can work on. I think so. I might be paraphrasing. So then I try to take a nap for 20 minutes, but truth be told, I'm sitting there with anxiety about many things. I need to get the pot.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Oh, before the bath.

SPEAKER_05 22:10

Before the bath. Before the bath. This is after the conversation. Okay, okay. She's here preparing the bath, posting idea. Let's go have a naked bath and sake, but no sex. I'm like, and then I go try to take a nap, and I'm like, oh my god, naked bath, podcast, podcast table, microphones, computers, cameras, naked bath, sake, and then she jumps on my bed. She's like, hey, so what do you think? I'm like, I gotta, I gotta get the podcast set up. She's like, what? Oh, do you think I was thinking about the bath? Do you want to take a bath? I'm like, okay, fine. I'll take the bath. And so we took the bath. Uh, not facing each other.

unknown 22:58

Already?

SPEAKER_05 22:59

No. She was sitting, and then I sat in front of her. So my back was to her. And then I was like, I don't want to do this. I'm gonna be so turned on. But she made it so motherlike that my erection wasn't completely totally out of control the entire time. Just up and down, literally. And she's like, lay back, relax. So I did, and I made it. The only problem was when my hand touched her leg. And I was like, I'm so not used to I don't think it's normal or natural. I'm not used to being in that situation. That's like as close as you can get to sex without sex. And then you messaged me.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

I was like, I gotta get out of the bath now. And I was kind of like, thank God, I don't want to do this anymore. Because it's just making me want to have sex.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

And I get it, she's on a mission of no sex. And I am on a mission of solitude right now. Of really for the first time in my life, probably, trying to develop a healthy relationship with myself as opposed to a female. Yeah. And I think she's kind of doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

But I'm like She's definitely doing it consciously.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Yeah. And we can talk about what she said.

SPEAKER_05 24:42

What did she say?

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Like the conversation or not.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

What was the conversation? I mean, I can cut it out later if we need to. What was the conversation?

SPEAKER_02 24:49

You just talk about like she was talking about her female empowering.

SPEAKER_05 24:54

Oh, the reason she did it was to feel empowered. I mean, that kind of makes sense. Straight men can be misogynistic and have a tendency to take advantage of women because they just think about sex. And so for her, that was a way to empower herself to have me in there. But her to have boundaries set. But she also said she invited me because she trusted me and she knew I wouldn't try to have sex with her. And that's why she asked me to do it. And she said by us doing that together, she felt very empowered. And she said women need to be empowered and know that they can be in control. And I guess that does kind of make sense, it does make sense because women have been taken advantage of more than not throughout all of history, right? So why did you want to bring that up? You think that's important?

SPEAKER_02 25:57

It is. It is. Why? Why? I don't know. I don't, I just want to talk about it. And and oh my god. Can we uh just go because she she she kept mentioning the word patriarchy. Oh, patriarchy, yeah, yeah. Patriarchy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:16

Yeah, I didn't like that.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

You didn't like that word. Okay. But yeah. I I can.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

But yeah, how does how does this how did that make you feel? I mean, what are your what are your thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Well, well, yeah, it does relate to my works, workshops.

Pass Bath Immersive Experience

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Like I think earlier we talked about I created some immersive experiences, like I took a bath.

SPEAKER_05 26:52

Yeah, I read about a few of them. You had uh a bait uh bath one and a blindfold one.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:58

Let's talk about those.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Yeah, yeah. One is called Pass Bath, uh-huh. It's uh one-on-one immersive experience that happened in a space called Now Room in Siemen. They do have a room and with a bathtub. Uh-huh. Yeah. So I took a bath with one participant and it was super sexual.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

Male or female? Male. Male.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Well, it was for open for people living with HIV. Okay. Yeah, I didn't say male or female, but only male can, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:42

So were there like several bathtubs with one one bathtub. One bathtub. So it wasn't a big group.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 27:49

Just one-on-one.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

One-on-one. Yeah, yeah. We didn't have OG.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yeah, just one-on-one.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

And and they were how do you say eye-covered, blindfolded?

SPEAKER_05 28:02

In the bathtub?

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:05

Did they know it was you?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:07

Were you blindfolded?

SPEAKER_02 28:08

No.

SPEAKER_05 28:09

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

I got the power.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

You were in power.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:16

Why did they wear a blindfold?

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Because it's fun. Because it's fun. But I wanted them to feel the sexual uh arousal. Arousal, yeah. Arousal, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we're not having sex.

SPEAKER_05 28:39

There was no actual sex.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

No. Oh there were people trying to have sex with me.

SPEAKER_05 28:45

Where were these people? I thought you said it was one-on-one.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

One on one. But but some of them.

SPEAKER_05 28:51

So there were several one-on-ones.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Several. Then there were like ten.

SPEAKER_05 28:56

So hold on. Some people. So there's like a room. Yeah. There's a line out the door of people waiting to take a bath with you. We schedule like appointments. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Like 7, you come, 7:30, you come, eight, you come. So you're like a bath whore. Yeah. I'm a busy bathhoore.

SPEAKER_05 29:17

So one-on-one, somebody would come and take a bath with you. Yeah. All of them would be blindfolded. Yeah. Yeah. And all of them would be AIDS HIV positive.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And actually before that, I had the kind of like phone sex with them. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:35

With all of them? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

No, no, no. One each time. Okay. Yeah. And then I would describe what would happen there in the bathtub to them. On the phone. Yeah. Like now I'm taking your clothes off. Now we're doing the Eructi podcast. No.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

I know I was about to say, go ahead. Just give me a whole sample.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

I am taking your clothes off, and now slowly I I I what? I I like I take them into the bath and then I ask them where you want to be massaged. And then on the phone, they will answer, maybe my neck. And then I say, okay, now you feel my fingers on your neck. Slowly my thumb goes to your upper neck and now to to your shoulder, something like that. And then I ask them where do you want to massage me? So it's uh both uh how do you say reciprocal yeah yeah and then they have to describe how they massage me. Yeah. Yeah. And then I would do exactly the same thing there in the backtop. Ah, in real life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like play with the tactile sensation of sound and voice. Yeah. Almost like phone sex or ASMR.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

I like, I was about to say something about that. Yeah. Today I was trying to nap, right? And that girl was out here making tea, and I just kept hearing the sound of the spoon spinning in the mug. You know, the tink, tink, tink, tink, tink. And all the hairs on my neck just kept standing up.

unknown 31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:40

Just kept getting goosebumps everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sound is actually how'd you say touchy? Can you say touch?

SPEAKER_05 31:52

Oh, kind of like the the performance that you did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was that word that you taught me? That performance I came and saw you do. The word where you see colors. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like that. Yeah. You just said you you sound is like touch.

SPEAKER_06 32:13

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:15

Yeah, you're right. Because like a certain sound makes gives me goosebumps.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Makes my hair stand up. Yeah. So it's such a good feeling. Yeah. So I want to play with that. And also for them to have a because it's it's kind of scary, this experience.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Yeah. Because you don't know what would happen in in the bathtub. So for them to prepare. So they know what's gonna happen before coming to the bathtub. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:44

I feel like the purpose of this is because when you get AIDS HIV, you suddenly feel like you're not lovable or you're not sexy anymore. And I feel like the purpose of this was to make them realize you're still sexy.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Exactly. To feel your body again, to uh reconnect with your body again, reclaim, re- Yeah, to to to connect. I would I would say connect with your body again and to love your body again. And also oh sorry, and also maybe people leaving with HIV.

Chemsex And Losing Presence

SPEAKER_02 33:35

That's another subject we talk about it earlier about chemsex. Chem chemsex sex with drugs.

SPEAKER_05 33:44

Cam sex. Yeah learn learn this. You said it earlier. Cam meaning what? Camera? Chemistry, I think. Chemistry?

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Yeah, yeah. Chemical.

SPEAKER_05 33:55

Oh, chemical.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

But the drugs with S. Chemsex. Do we S check GPD now? Yeah. Yeah, it's can yeah, like sex with drugs.

SPEAKER_05 34:06

Oh, okay. Like chemical.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Chemical. Chemical sex. Okay. Yeah. In Taiwan or in the world, that chemsex usually with this is a common phrase.

SPEAKER_05 34:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chem sex. Okay, I never heard it before today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah, now you learn. It's quite bad. And people are addicted. People are addicted to it. Yeah. Usually uh crystal math.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Yeah. Ice. Yeah. And it makes you super horny. And you can have sex for hours. And yeah, like you just lose yourself. And you are you are just sex. You are just a piece of meat.

SPEAKER_05 34:52

Well, it's it's like a fat person that can't stop eating. Right? I mean, not to bash fat people, but like pizza and donuts, and like eventually you become the epitome of what you're doing. I've done that. I've you know I've done that with sex, you know what I mean? Eventually it's just a bottomless pit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

So people are losing this inspiring feelings.

SPEAKER_05 35:26

Oh, yeah. We all started with inspired sex, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:31

Well, chem sex would be the complete opposite, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Yeah. You are just yeah, you you you I don't know, you just like empty sex, ghost sex. Empty, empty, yeah. Yeah. You forget the feelings, you forget how your body feels. Yeah. You forget how to listen to your body.

SPEAKER_05 35:55

Because you're in a state of constantly chasing. Yeah, yeah. We were talking about that earlier, I think in the first podcast, being present.

SPEAKER_06 36:01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

Being completely present when you're performing it to be completely present. When you're having passionate sex or inspiring sex or making love, you're definitely present. But when you're like having chem sex, you're just trying to get off. I think. So that you can just do it again and do it again and do it again.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

So one of the reasons I did this workshop, this experience is for them to, you know, yeah, find the feelings back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think feel sexy again. Feel sexy again.

SPEAKER_05 36:40

Get their sexy back. Justin Timberly stuff. Yeah, yeah. Do you want another beer? Sure. Sex is a fun subject, though. Got me thinking about the last time I I don't know how much of this we're gonna be able to publish. The last good sex I had. It felt like I was on drugs. And I was like in my head, I was like, what am I on?

SPEAKER_04 37:12

And I was like, I'm not on anything.

SPEAKER_05 37:14

Yeah, it was just that fucking good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just that good. I thought I was high. But it was just there was just so much craving and work and time and passion involved that it just felt like I was high. But actually, I wasn't. That's like magic sex.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

I always say, My body is my drug, I don't need any drugs. Okay, thank you. Uh yeah, yeah, like like when you and that's also why I created all these experiences and workshops, is that your your body is your drug, you don't need like those shitty things. You you can you just have to discover it. Yeah, you need to calm down and listen to your body, and there are so many treasures in your body. Uh like just uh a little touch like like this, fingers on your cheeks can be really sexy and yeah, something like this. Yeah, we we we we don't really uh uh have time or or yeah, yeah. So I want people to calm down and uh go back to your body. Feel sexy there. Yeah. And and that's also to talk about boundaries. Because in those workshops and experiences I created, there's one thing that's really important. It's the how what's the word again? Like the the both ways. Like I asked you to do something, you ask me to do something.

SPEAKER_05 39:07

Mutual or reciprocal yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Strong sang that we say in Mandarin. Yeah. Any relationship is strong sung.

SPEAKER_05 39:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Strong sang, something mutual. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:22

I do this for you, you do this for me. I think mutual exchange.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

So we have to listen to each other. Yeah, yeah. We have to know each other's boundaries.

SPEAKER_05 39:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like when I give, I also receive. Right. Giving is receiving, receiving is giving. Like when I'm touching you, I'm also being touched by what I'm touching. Yeah. Yeah. So it's always this circle. Yeah. So to be in this beautiful circle, it it takes a lot. You have to listen and you have to be open.

SPEAKER_05 40:17

I can't stop thinking about my bath today.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

That's why I want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 40:24

Because she was touching me in a cuddly way, and then my hand fell on her leg, and then I got really excited, and then I was like, I can't touch her the way she's touching me. Because I get too aroused.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Where are we now? I don't know. The boundaries. The boundaries.

SPEAKER_05 40:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So in in an activity like that, having clear established boundaries, like what was a boundary? There's no sex, no sex is to be expected. No sex is gonna happen. Yeah, before the experience.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Oh, we haven't talked about the blind walk, right?

Blind Walk And Mutual Boundaries

SPEAKER_05 41:17

Yeah, I did want to ask you about that because that sounded amazing.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Yeah, uh the the sorry, the immersive experience I created called Blind Walk. I did it in Munich, Germany. It was in international world at sorry, international AIDS conference.

SPEAKER_05 41:38

Were you a representative of Taiwan in that?

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:42

It was like the 25th one?

SPEAKER_02 41:44

24th.

SPEAKER_05 41:45

24th.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Yeah, yeah. So I did this in an exhibition space that I would encounter a stranger and then ask this stranger, would you like to have a blind walk with me? They'll be like, huh? And then I explain to the stranger, uh, this is um immersive. Is that you or me? And they'll be like, okay, that's let's do it. And then I will ask them some questions, like, how is intimacy for you during the walk? Uh we we haven't started before the walk. Okay, okay. And then we we had a little chat chat together. And then I would ask the person to close his or her eyes, and then I would lead the person walking in the space. And at the same time, I made the person listen to the poet.

SPEAKER_05 42:51

Oh wow, like headphones? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Yeah. And then after that, and asked I asked the person, how is touching and being touched for you? Yeah. And then we exchange. I close my eyes, and the person had to lead me.

SPEAKER_05 43:16

Would you wear a blindfold?

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Just close my eyes.

SPEAKER_05 43:18

Just close your eyes.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Yeah, and then in the end, we often ended up like contact improvise. Like we would I because I play a music and then uh I would just follow the flow. Like the person wants to watch me dance or we dance together. But usually we dance together. Yeah, yeah. Like we created like an improvised choreography together. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But what I'm trying to say is this mutual thing, like I give you something and you give something back. And then we are discovering each other's boundaries.

SPEAKER_05 44:10

Through the process.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Through the process. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and like the the bathing one before the participant goes into the bathtub, there are many rules. Oh really? Like you can say stop at any point. And also the artist can say stop at any point. Yeah. And you can decide yourself whether you want to be naked or with your underwear on. Yeah, something some rules like this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So uh it's very important to communicate.

unknown 45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

I think it's like BDSM.

SPEAKER_05 45:09

I'm a fan. So BDSM party going on right now.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

I know. I heard I I listened to your podcast.

SPEAKER_05 45:16

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's at flat five.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean sorry, I never try. I would love to. That's fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:29

Uh you didn't hear about my first time. A friend who's really into it. And it's like B1, like a basement club. I had no idea what to expect, and it is small and very crowded. And you walk in and there's like girls chained to the wall saying no, but really means yes. I don't know how how much I can elaborate, but there were some very dodgy things going on. And then in the front, sort of like stage area, there's like Shibari ropes, people being tied up. Oh, I think I talked about this on the last episode. And then at one point I'm talking to this girl, you did. Yeah, just feeling really awkward. And then she's like, You want to try? I'm like, Yeah. She takes me and I get all tied up and spun around in a 360.

SPEAKER_02 46:17

But how how did you feel?

SPEAKER_05 46:20

Because usually powerless. Powerless. But I like that. But you like it. I liked it. I think I like being dominant. So I'm I'm probably like an S. Okay. I like to be dominated.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

Uh-huh. I reckon. I believe so.

SPEAKER_05 46:37

I I told that to Tracy. And she's like, that makes sense because men so often feel the need.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

You're mentioning names now.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Well, she was on the episode or the last episode. Okay. Separate conversation. I think it was her that said something about men often feel the need to be dominant and in power. So men are often the ones that like to be dominated.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Can I say anti-patriarchy?

SPEAKER_05 47:08

Anti-patriarchy?

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Is that the correct word? Uh could be.

SPEAKER_05 47:12

Anti-patriarchy.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Anti-colon colonization.

SPEAKER_05 47:17

Oh, anti-colonizers.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Oh my god. Can I share that?

SPEAKER_05 47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 47:24

I think anything's going here tonight.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 47:27

You're gonna edit it, okay?

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Because I I used to be a cute bottom. A cute bottom? For white daddies.

SPEAKER_05 47:44

Okay, what's bottom mean?

SPEAKER_02 47:46

What's bottom mean? I thought you have some gay friends.

SPEAKER_05 47:50

I do. I think I know what bottom means.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Top and bottom. Okay, okay. And in Taiwan we say 100.

SPEAKER_05 47:59

Okay, I only know this because I watched a TV show called Shameless recently. And there were two gay guys, and they were both tops. And so that was a problem.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

That's a problem.

SPEAKER_05 48:10

So gay guys actually have a real prefer preference, like I'm a top or I'm a bottom.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

unknown 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

But it's better to be versatile.

SPEAKER_05 48:23

So a top is on top. A top. No, versatile means Oh, versatile means both.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Yeah, yeah. You can do both. It's beautiful to be both. Okay. So but we move.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

There's girl, there's a bottom.

SPEAKER_05 48:42

You a good bottom girl. I'm the top daddy.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

You cannot say that. You cannot say that.

SPEAKER_05 48:56

That's why my new rapper name, Top Daddy. Top Daddy.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Top Daddy. You're gonna have many, many gay fans.

SPEAKER_05 49:05

It's good though. These are the best podcasts. Okay. The best podcast are the honest podcasts. And I got I'll tell you what, I enjoy talking about sex because these are the things people don't talk about. The things people don't talk about are the things that need to be talked about the most. AIDS HIV as well. All these things. Vulnerability. Vulnerability is freedom. Like your performance. That's why I said I felt like I fell in love with all you guys. There's extreme vulnerability. It's the same thing we're doing right now. It feels great. It does because all filters are gone, all everything is your mask is removed. Your guard is down. Everything's down. Everything's gone.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

But it's not easy to do so.

SPEAKER_05 49:52

No. It's not. It's not easy to get naked in a bathtub and not have sex either.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

We were talking about colonization.

Patriarchy Roles And Queer Labels

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Anti-colonization. Okay, I wanted to hear where this was going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was a cute button. That's yeah, I was a cute button. Okay. And I always dated uh like older white daddies. Wow, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then later I became a top. Okay. And I oh my god, how direct can we be?

SPEAKER_05 50:33

I think we've been being pretty direct.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Okay, I I I want to fuck daddies.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

I want to fuck big white man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

And for me, that was like and not anti-colonization, like like I colonize him. I colonize them.

SPEAKER_05 50:56

Now it all makes sense. I get you.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:59

You know, you are colonizing the colonizer.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sexually. And it feels great.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

They deserve it.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They deserve it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I mean, it's good to discover that and to because I think in Taiwan, especially in Taiwan, just just in gay community, they like in Taiwan it's more like top is top, bottom is bottom. There's no versatile.

SPEAKER_05 51:33

There's I never even heard that before. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

Well, they are versatile people, but like like most most guys in in Taiwan are bottoms. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then and then and then they they still in this thinking of patriarchy, sorry to mention that again. That that top a top man has to be you know m manly and and you know how how the society imagine a man should be like, and a button should be like a woman. But it doesn't have to be that way. I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:17

Like stereotypically, there's kind of two kinds of gay men or lesbian women.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

Yeah, also lesbian. Yeah, because you you know T, right? T no, trans? No. T. Oh, also T LGBT, trans, yes. But sometimes we call lesbian T. Uh huh. Tomboy.

SPEAKER_05 52:38

Ah, okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:41

Because also or I'll say butch. A butch. Butch kind of means the same thing, I think. Like a manly lesbian. But we say butch queen. Oh, that's even better.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

For for a gay guy.

SPEAKER_05 52:55

Oh. Yeah. For a gay for a feminine gay guy?

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Yeah, yeah. Oh no. More butch, like more manly.

SPEAKER_05 53:02

Oh. A more manly gay guy. With with gay vibe. This is getting complicated. So like the guys I see at the gym would be butch queens?

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 53:14

Yeah?

SPEAKER_00 53:15

I think so.

SPEAKER_05 53:16

The ones I can't even tell they're gay. I wonder how many of the guys at the gym are gay. I really have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

Because gay guys, I think in the world, not only in Taiwan, they they want to be manly. They want to be this toxic masculine na how do you say I've never heard it used that way.

SPEAKER_05 53:40

They want to be toxically masculine. Yeah, yeah. Toxic masculinity problem, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like Andrew Tate.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

We are still in stuck in this patriarchy world.

SPEAKER_05 53:54

And patriarchy meaning male dominated. Toxic masculinity, though, is it's different. That's really like I'm a man and women know their place. Women belong in the kitchen. That's kind of like toxic masculinity, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

And also for lesbians.

SPEAKER_05 54:14

They have it too.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Yeah. It's changing now. It's changing now. But like you you you heard the term zhonghua ti.

SPEAKER_05 54:26

Zhonghua ti.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Zhonghua Tiet. It's like Zhonghua is Jonghua Mingo is Taiwan, right? Uh Republic of China. Okay. How do I explain T? Tia is like metal. Metal T.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

Oh, Gang T and Iron.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Iron. It's like extreme something. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Was it T Fan? T fans. Like I I I am a TFN to Joling Tai.

SPEAKER_05 54:57

Very against?

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Very, very how to say. Like like Against it. Against it. Okay. Anti. So it's like very, very T, very tomboy.

SPEAKER_05 55:10

They would act like I'm a man and I own a. Also you're saying lesbian women can even have toxic masculinity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see. Yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So why I think in Taiwan it's like since when, I don't know, this queer. This this this term. Queer.

SPEAKER_05 55:37

I don't even know what it means. Huh? I really don't. You don't look queer. I bet the listeners don't either.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

No way. Where am I?

SPEAKER_05 55:47

You are modern, advanced, and integrated, and I am not.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

No. You don't look queer.

SPEAKER_05 55:54

I know the word, but when I was growing up, it was used as a a derogatory term to make fun of gay people, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gay people. But I don't know what I don't know what the correct modern definition of the word queer is in terms of sexuality. Wow. Does it mean bisexual? No.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Okay, let me try to guess. No, no. But like it's it's gonna be really complicated because that's probably why I don't know what it means. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because queer from my perspective is to have no definition. I don't want to be defined as gay or straight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or as female or male. Yeah. Usu usually we say non-binary. Okay, that's you can also call yourself queer.

SPEAKER_05 56:48

So d non-binary and queer are the same thing. Not exactly. Not exactly. Okay. Non-binary is not identifying with being male or female, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

And queer. Queer can be many things. Can be gender, can be like like anything you don't you don't want to you don't want to be put in a traditional definition. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:22

This is such a complicated topic. It is. Losing face. Dolian. Is that right? Is that the right word? Dolyan. Dolyan. Losing face. Dolian.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

Dolion.

SPEAKER_05 57:42

Dolian.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Dolian.

SPEAKER_05 57:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

Oh, why?

SPEAKER_05 57:46

Because I think there's a lot of hmm. Men like me. Who are not gay, but like I said, I have I like I'm a very feminine man. But I have masculinity as well. And so I think these terms, it's easy for like I want to say straight white men to just group them all together as one thing. Without realizing that some of them may identify with some of these terms or things, but they're not willing to be judged by society. So they they choose to stay a traditional white man. A traditional straight white man. But maybe people's sexualities are more fluid than most people care to admit. Than most people are willing to admit. I don't know. I'm speaking off the top a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

I'm I'm losing you. How are you losing me? Or you're losing me. Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's uh it's a topic. How do you get here?

SPEAKER_05 59:08

Um because because you being a cute bottom and wanting to colonize big white daddies. That's how we got here.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Boundaries and and yeah, yeah, I think queering something we often say queering history, because history is interpreted. Interpreted. Yeah, okay. Sorry for my English. It's great. Uh by patriarchy.

SPEAKER_05 59:41

That's true. Dominated and written.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So uh re it's been many years. But like like some queer artist, queer researchers, uh they they want to queer their history. To look at their history, look at what happened in the world, uh from a different angle. That's also queer.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of what's going on in the US, right?

unknown 1:00:15

Oh yeah?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:16

Like taking down statues. Or is that more of that's more of a race thing, ain't it? I think it's more race related.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

It's very complicated.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:29

Okay, let me see if there's hold on, you finish this up. Let me see if there's anything else I want to bring up.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

Okay. But yeah, like like earlier, I think when I started creating things, I kind of label myself. Label, is that a good word?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:53

I I I identify myself as a queer artist. Okay. Yeah. And mostly I talk about gender and sexuality. Yeah. That's that's why I work with the drag queen, Ling Fe Wing. Yeah. I saw that biography. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We created a show together called Mommy Drag. Yeah. Like it's also an immersive theater and combined with drag, acting, dancing, singing, everything together, and we talk about gender and sexuality, and the story is about a gay boy and his mom. Yeah. Like the mom doesn't accept that he's gay. And then the boy committed suicide. Damn. And then in the imaginary world that the boy becomes the mother through drag.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:11

That sounds like Ed Gean. Like what? He was a serial killer.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

No, no, no, no. This is the magic of drag.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:23

Okay, okay. I'm not familiar with the magic of drag.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Okay, okay. Have you seen Drag Show?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:28

No. Well, like in like in reality. I think like on Halloween, Tiger Mountain, they have drag shows.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Oh yeah?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:41

Tiger Tiger Mountain.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

Oh, you're where you're in Husan?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:44

Yeah, dude, on Halloween. They usually have drag shows there.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Yeah. It's a man dressing like a woman. Right. Yeah. And for for them, for those performers are like bringing out your the little girl inside. Yeah. So the show with Ning Fe Wing, mommy drag, we are bringing the mother inside. Oh. Bringing out the mother inside. We because I think I I think every gay boy has this. Why are you laughing?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:32

The girl that wanted me to take a bath with her today, she's like, I really want you to do it because you got really good feminine energy and you you kind of feel motherly, and I need you to take the bath with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

And she makes you think of your mom.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:48

And she reminds me of my mom a lot. Very strange. Uh but you know, Sigmund Freud, he was a psychologist. I think he was the one that said it, but he said that we often seek partners that are similar to our parents. So that light clicked in my head last week. I was like, oh, she reminds me of my mom. Maybe that's why I'm attracted to her. But that's really weird, right? I'm not attracted to my mom. But you tend to like my mom's husband is a lot like her dad. They're both mechanics and they spend a lot of time working on cars and stuff like that. Maybe it's because it's like a sense of comfort, familiarity, certainty, predictability. It's predictable. If you're like, oh, this person's like my mom or my dad, and I can predict their behavior. It's not unknown because the unknown can be scary.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have this complex relationship with our parents. It is a complex for sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:02

Yeah.

unknown 1:05:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:05

Okay.

Sisbro Productions And Time Travelers

SPEAKER_05 1:05:06

I want to ask you about cisbro production. Unless you have something else to say.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

We're gonna stop talking about sex. I love this topic. I love it too. I feel like cispro production is nothing about sex. I don't have sex with my sister.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:28

And I don't have sex with my mom.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:35

So you don't want to talk about cisbro?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

Well, we can, we can, we can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:40

Oh yeah, because I I made a couple notes trying to see what they were. I was just well, first tell me what Sisbro Productions is.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:48

Sisbro Productions is a company I established with my sister. Yeah. And almost Is your sister younger or older? Older sister. Yeah, two and a half years older. Okay. Yeah. And we are both director and performer. And when we work together, we create the show together. Like we have two playwrights, two directors, two performers. Like we do everything together at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:24

And how many times have you done that?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:27

Actually, many, many times. She was in Mummy Drag. Okay. The show I created with Nefair Wayne.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:35

So Mummy Drag was like a one-time thing or something you've done several times?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:38

One-time thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:39

Oh, okay. I thought it was a repeat thing. No, no, no, no, no. So you did a drag show one time?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:44

Uh a drag theater show one time. Okay. And I I did perform with House of Wayne, which is the House of Nymphya Winged. You know the culture of that house? No. I'm just thinking about the Rocky Horror Picture Show right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:03

Do you know what that is? Really? The Rocky Horror Picture Show?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

I know, I know. Lord Seekung Busha.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:12

That's all I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:12

Okay, okay. I had never seen, I have to say.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:15

You've never watched the movie? I think I have. I probably did when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:22

And every year they have like special events here.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:26

In Taiwan, they still do that? Yeah, yeah. Oh wow. That'd be fun.

unknown 1:07:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:30

It's like a movie theater, but a party.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

unknown 1:07:34

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

So, so yeah, but but like before we established this company, we have worked together many, many times. But either she's the director, I was the performer, or I was the director, she was a performer. But since we established this company, we have been creating together. Like directing together, performing together. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have this series called Time Travelers.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:11

That's what I want to ask you about because I saw there was two different titles and they were both related to time.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:18

And infatuated with time.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Time and space. Time traveler is a character we created. It's kind of cliche, but like it's a character that that that travel through time and space and who talk to the audience or interact with the audience. Because we also do immersive theater in historical places or in hotels or in museums.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:59

Oh, you told me something about a hotel, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would that's in Taiwan. We've been doing that show for three years.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:06

Can you describe it again?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

Yeah. It's called Shining Through the Cracks. We call it 18-hour immersive journey. Uh-huh. Yeah. That uh the audience will spend one night in Taitong. They check in from 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. And then they can discover the hotel. And then or before that, we we send them some voice messages that the time traveler will talk to you. Something about time and space. And we we are souls that traveling through different lives. And we are we are exploring stories, and we are bringing that to you now. Something like that. And then in the hotel, finally they meet us, and then we will interact with them, like one, one by one. Yeah, we also provide dinner.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:14

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They eat there in the in the lobby. Do you know the the hotel called Ruder Sing Lu? Northern Ruder.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:26

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:27

Yeah. They have two hotels in Taidong.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:30

I haven't spent a lot of time in when I just went to Taedong for Paso Ali. That was the first time I've been there in like eight years.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:38

Okay. Yeah. You know, in 2025, I went there for six times.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:44

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:49

It is great.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:51

I used to work with Aboriginal communities there like nine, ten years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:55

Yeah. And also that's the reason you you want to come to Taiwan and explore the culture here.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:03

It's so funny how I I came here for that, with this mission to do community development work, to work with marginalized communities, underprivileged communities, understand Aboriginal culture. And then my third year here, I got caught up in like teaching and the party scene. And that just became my life for like six years. Just like parties and cram school. I mean, I don't know. I didn't completely lose it, but I kind of forgot why I came here for sure. Because my first year I practiced like Tai Chi and I did meditation, I went to Buddhist temples, and then I kind of I kind of lost it a bit. And then in the past year I've reconnected with myself and my initial goal of Aboriginal life, Buddhism, Taoism, countryside. Yeah. And now I'm realigning, feeling very good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:04

And now you're in this magical place. Yeah, man. Yeah, it's magical here, guys. Oh my god, I feel the magic here.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:16

We haven't even gone to the hospitals yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:18

Oh yeah. Shall we go?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:20

We can. We can. But it's too late. It's too late. It might be. Yeah, we we could, we could not. But that's so you have the time traveler and you have the ripening of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just saw both those titles and like have you ever seen the movie The Curse? Wait a second, The Case of Benjamin Button.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:40

Are you talking about Benjamin? No.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:43

There's a movie called The Case of Benjamin Button. It's about this man that's born, but when he comes out of the woman, he's an old man. Yes, yes, yes. Brad Pitt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as time goes on, he keeps getting younger and younger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That movie makes it so you can taste time on your tongue. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It just makes time so palpable, so real. I just something about that movie has always stung me in a way I can't ever let it go. And when I saw you had a couple titles of time, I was like, ooh, I wonder what those are about. Because time is such a such a painful thing, kind of. Because it's the one thing you can't control. You have no control of it.

unknown 1:13:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:32

Painful, you say. I think, well, because of aging and death. Aging and death are the result of time. I feel it's pretty dark, but but you could also say growth is the result of time. Yeah. You could also say maturity is the result of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

Yeah. Well, in the in the show in Taitong, Shining Through the Cracks, we have these time travelers talking to the audience about the ideas of time and space. And then we bring them to some historical buildings. Yeah. Like Japanese building.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:11

Oh, you like take them out on the town.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then we really show the story what happened there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Like the Japanese building was the dorm of the Japanese teachers in Taitong. So we we we we perform a story about a Japanese teacher.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's something that we bring them back to the past. And then the time traveler will talk to the audience again about now. So you see the past. You see what happened here in Taiwan, in Taitong. And you know, Taiwan is really complicated.

Taiwan Identity Through Immersive History

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

Our identity. Yeah. We've been colonized by many, many different countries. Right. Japanese, China, Netherlands, Spain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So who are we? Yeah, what's our culture? It's still a question we are facing now. That's why we are always trying so hard to prove to the world what is Taiwan? Who are Taiwanese? Yeah. So we ask the audience this question. Who are you? What is now? And then at the end of the show, we invite them to write a letter to yourself, but like half a year later. Yeah. Yeah. So we've been through this journey of the past and now. So how about the future? Yeah. And they write it. They have the whole night to write it. Yeah, they we we give them shamijo, shaminjo. How do you say shaminjo? Like alcohol right Aboriginal race one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We give them shamin Jo and play some good music, good dance, and then get them tipsy, and then they think about their future. And then and then they're free. They go to bell or they they go explore title. And then the next day in the morning, we this this was new, like the third year, because we've been doing this show for three years, but that year, for the very first time, we have this morning beach yoga.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:57

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

Yeah. Like we say at 9 a.m. we're gonna do a beach yoga. So welcome to join us. So it's you know it's so beautiful. Yeah, you look at the the the ocean, and then we did yoga together. And then we're back to the hotel, and then we did something like a workshop with them with their letters. Yeah. They read it. No matter you want to read to yourself or to the person you want to talk to or to the future yourself, you read it together with other participants, and then we will we would collect the letters, and then in in half year, we're gonna send them for real. Yeah. So I have the all the letters now. I think I think it's in May. I'm gonna I'm gonna send them. Wow. Yeah. So imagine that after six months, you receive a letter like from the past.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:07

That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:09

Sounds like something out of a movie. That whole experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:13

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:16

I journal, I've been journaling religiously since I came to Taiwan. Yeah. And sometimes I'll go through my old journals and I'll stumble on one from like seven years ago. And it's like a time machine. It is like a legitimate time machine. It's very, very cool. So, yeah.

unknown 1:18:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:38

All right.

Letters To Future Self Ritual

SPEAKER_05 1:18:39

I think we're gonna tie this up. Oh. What is what is what is your message to people?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:50

Well, this is my message. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:52

Would you have any like you've you've said a lot? This has been a very interesting podcast, maybe one of the longest ones. Uh I don't know. Advice for anybody struggling with being sexy.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:13

What's the biggest struggle we've talked about?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:16

Also, being an artist and isn't struggle. Doing what you like isn't struggle.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:23

But that was inspiring. About I think you did the same thing I did, which was you took suffering and pain, and through art you exercised it into art.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:37

Yeah. Yeah. I think that was Meryl's dream when she got Oscar. Uh-huh. And she said, take your broken heart, make it into art.

unknown 1:19:49

Fuck yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:50

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I used to say that. Um, because the the healing workshop I just talk about from tactile sensation to writing to drawing together, the workshop. I did that workshop for 40 times already. Wow. Yeah. And each workshop is like four hours to seven hours, sometimes non-stop. Yeah. And I always say this take your broken heart, make it into art. Yeah. But I don't know. Now I am well, me myself, I'm I'm on a journey of I just I think I just recovered from a very serious burnout. Yeah, in this 10 years artist career. Like from 2024, I've been doing a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. I wanted to prove myself. Yeah, earlier we talked about this, like oh yeah. We always always want to prove ourselves. Yeah, but now I'm 34. The age when Jesus died.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:15

34 or 33. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. I'm on the pick. It's is it my pick of my life?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:24

Yeah. Um it's I think for me it's time to to really what's the word to to to to love myself.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:40

That's what I was about to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I got over that trying to prove myself, the next chapter for me was being content with myself.

unknown 1:21:51

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:52

And loving myself and being like, I'm okay, I'm enough. I don't need to prove myself. I don't need to be the

Burnout Recovery And Self Love

SPEAKER_05 1:22:00

epitome of success. I just need to be okay with me and love me and know I'm enough. And know that as long as I do my best every day, I've done enough. Yeah, I don't need to beat myself up.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You don't you don't watch track shows, do you? Because in Rupo's track show, uh-huh. Do you know that?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:25

You know, okay. Yeah. That's where Ning Bia waned. Uh she she won, yeah. Oh yeah? Uh season 16. Yeah. She she won. She won. Yeah, yeah. She's from Taiwan? In in the US.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:39

Oh. She's from the US. She's American.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:41

She was born there. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:44

But you did something with her here?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:45

Here in Taiwan. Yeah. Well, because she uh she was born in the US, but uh uh she came back to Taiwan. She she could grew up here.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:56

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:58

But she was on RuPaul and she won season three. Season 16. Season 16. Damn. In two?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's like six season eighteen now. Wow. Yeah. And RuPaul always says, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love somebody else? Fucking hey, man. Fucking hey.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:22

I think that's been the message all my friends have been trying to tell me for the past year. You keep going out and trying to love all these girls, but like you don't even love yourself. How are you ever gonna have a healthy relationship? It's really true.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:38

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's why I'm going through now as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:49

It's about the appropriate time. Mid-30s.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:55

I'm getting out.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:56

I hate to even talk like that, but yeah, I've I've officially been around long enough to where I can see that there are different chapters in life. I can't believe it. But actually, at the same time, that's a miracle. Because I told you about all the shit I did a long time ago. I died twice. Two times I died, and I was brought back by uh EMTs. So I could easily be like, I'm so old that I can see chapters in life, or it's a miracle I'm even alive and made it this far for all of us, right? Yeah. Inspiring. Yeah. Gotta be grateful. Gotta be grateful. All right. I think we'll end on that, ladies and gentlemen. Okay. Good? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, we're out.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:51

Bye bye.