Discover the First of Five Responsibility Levels of the MBR process - The Unconscious

Imagine you're climbing a ladder. With each step, you evolve, grow, and level up in responsibility. As we navigate through this journey called life, we find ourselves on different rungs of this 'ladder of responsibility.' Today, we're going to unveil the intricacies of these levels - unconscious, self-protective, conformist, achievement, and responsible - their unique characteristics, emotional responses, and how they reflect in our behaviors. Join in as we unpack a touching story of a manager wrestling with personal loss and guilt, and his team's heartwarming efforts to support him.

The conversation doesn't stop there. As we ascend the ladder, we'll also talk about the need for dignified and responsible retirement transitions. We all know life can throw some curveballs, like addiction, and we believe that it's essential for employers to be there during these challenging times. But where do we draw the line between support and special treatment? We'll explore this fine line with a real-life example of an employee's transition into retirement, offering insights on how organizations can help their team prepare for this phase. We'll also tap into the five levels of responsibility in leadership and the crucial role of self-protection during hard times. So, tune in for an enlightening discussion of how leadership can be impacted by MBR.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Welcome everyone to our podcast, success Secrets and Stories. I'm your host, john Wunalski, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, greg Paul. Greg, hey, everybody, yeah, and we're going to talk about the ladders of responsibility, the ladder, the rungs of responsibility, the levels of responsibility. Dr Durst used an example of a ladder and our first level is, I think, one of the hardest ones for me to talk about is the unconscious level. And what's interesting about what Dr Durst did is he gave this example of a ladder and tried to show it in a very unique approach. Let me be specific the ladder has five rungs or five levels Unconscious being the lowest level, self-protective, conformist achievement. And the highest level, being responsible. And what he wanted to do is take those different levels, those five levels, and talk about the characteristics and the different lifestyles with people who are exhibiting those kind of reactions, those kind of characteristics in terms of how they conduct themselves every day. What I found interesting that we talked about is that those five rungs of a ladder are not universal and apply 100% of the time, and people fit in that, no matter what. People flex between those different levels and, depending upon the situation, you can see people who are at the highest level, responsible level, drift into the unconscious level, and probably the best example is when somebody passes away and you can see that disconnect, that instant disconnect. So, for the sake of talking about the seven different levels, it's the emotional response, intellectual functioning, activity involvement, self-discipline, relationships, physical state and spiritual dimensions. Now, I understand that this is a podcast and that's a lot in terms of detail, but Greg and I are not doctors or psychologists. I don't even play one on TV. So we're going to limit it to emotional responses, activity involvement, relationships and physical state, because those are the kind of things that you see in a performance review or in some of our approaches within management and how we're dealing with our staff and how we're tested in terms of how we communicate to our staffs, and those are some of the characteristics they want us to actually engage in. Intellectual functioning isn't one of those things. We're dealing more with the physical world and that's what we're going to concentrate in our podcast.

Speaker 1: 3:10

So the first one that we're going to use, the first one that we think is applied, is the emotional response and people who are in the unconscious state, they are unrelated to reality, they have a hard time realizing the real world. There's extreme shifts and everything is stress or anxiety. And if you know people around the unconscious level, I think you can think of examples Activity involvement. They're ritualistic, compulsive behavior, difficulty in changing, extreme fear of attempting anything new. So conformance isn't really looking for being challenged, they're just trying to make it through the day. The people who are in that category, their activity involvement is like that 40 hour work week. I'm trying to get it to Friday. I'm really not interested in something really fun to do. I'm trying to get my paycheck and then get out.

Speaker 1: 4:15

Relationships. I think is the other part that people are on the unconscious side. You start to see that flashing to the point where they have to be addressed. They are unconscious in the presence of others. There's a total communication breakdown. They avoid cross culture contact. They have no concern for others and there's little change. If they get feedback Negative feedback, positive feedback it's just they're out, they're not interested. The other element of it I think that really speaks to what we see people who are in the unconscious state is their physical state and this sometimes is the easiest thing to see as far as evidence of people who are checking out or are unconscious, blank staring. It's pretty straightforward their physical problems, addictions, accident prone absenteeism, fatigue. These are all people that we've dealt with. I think, greg, you've seen those characteristics of people that you've had to deal with in an HR environment. Maybe you can talk a little bit about the different states of condition of responsibility.

Speaker 2: 5:40

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 5:40

John.

Speaker 2: 5:41

I've seen quite a bit over the years and I'll just jump to a couple. But in the physical state, the absenteeism and we'll talk a little bit about that later Fatigue, just not having 100% on the job. Relationships trying to build and optimize teams is real important, but when you're dealing with someone that doesn't really care about others and it's just avoiding contact, not helpful on the team side, on the relationship side. And then we've talked a lot about podcasts, about change, and these are the people that are worse to have. And when they're unconscious like this, when there's change going on, because they're dragging their feet, they're the ones whose heels are dug in. And we need people to move up and on as a group, as a team, individually, and folks in this state are slow to do that.

Speaker 1: 6:31

So we're going to talk about a few examples, and the stories and the different opportunities that we have to share are mostly to try to help you understand how people are in. This unconscious level of emotional states Can really be a problem for the organization, for you and for others. And I used to work for a plastic film manufacturing site and we had a manager that was not doing his job and it was pretty apparent that the leads that he had in his department were covering for him. So as we started to talk and more we understood it was because of a tragic death of his son that had happened and he could not process it. It was, unfortunately, one of those kind of moments where we know his son because he got him a job at the same site and the tragedy was just palatable for everyone in the organization, the team trying to help him. I admire those people because they were trying to give him the opportunity to heal.

Speaker 1: 7:50

And the part in terms of my world in taking responsibility is he didn't drive the vehicle, he didn't drive the motorcycle into the accident. His son did, but the guilt of him buying that bike for his son was something he couldn't get past. So management can only help at some can only help so much, and they did what they could. What they really tried to do is the HR department and Greg you'll appreciate this, this is like two people for the entire company of 500, with limited resources did what they could in terms of sending him for help, sending him for training and making that transition. The problem is that unless the people who we send to those courses, to those programs, make it to make it I'm sorry until they make a decision to get better, you're never going to be able to make that progress and they're not going to be able to actually find a way back. They have to make the decision on their own, and that's a lot of what you see with anyone in terms of addictions. You can have all the best intentions you want, but it has to be the individual themselves that make that decision.

Speaker 1: 9:19

Now, when we're talking about helping and doing everything they can, at the end of the day, they had to let this individual go and it was not done quickly. It was months, I think anywhere from three to four months before he was actually gone. It might have been longer than that. It was a while ago, but the organization felt horrible letting him go. He was happy, but they all understood that he really wasn't there and he had made a point that he just didn't care anymore. That's how he left, going out the door I just don't care anymore. I'm done. His life ended with his son's death. I hope that he realized all the other people in his life and he could find that way to find some peace. But we all have those tragedies that we have to deal with and yeah, it's not an easy path. Greg, you have maybe a diversion from something a little bit less dire.

Speaker 2: 10:31

Yes, I do, john. This is a little lighter but still an issue that I think most of you that are listening have been through in the past. I've mentioned before absenteeism. This is really attendance and some attendance issues. I've got one in particular that stays with me, till today actually. So we're working, john and I are working together in the suburbs of Chicago Northwest suburbs. I had an employee who was doing line work, hand work, and he was coming from the South Side of Chicago. So if you know the South Side of Chicago to the Northwest suburbs, there's expressways with lots of cars, lots of traffic. So if you're planning to come from the South Side to the more North Side of the suburbs, you need to plan accordingly.

Speaker 2: 11:13

This individual was a really good employee. When I say good employee, performed the job well, was very reliable when they were there. But they had multiple occurrences of being tardy, just couldn't get there on time, and I'm not talking about two or three minutes, which is still unacceptable, I'm talking 15, 20 minutes. I was not in HR then. I work with my HR partner to come up with a write up to help this individual get to work on time and be the valuable person we needed all the time, but I didn't know the word then, but I know the word now is unconscious.

Speaker 2: 11:48

He really didn't care about him being a member of the team. He didn't care that there was a customer counting on him doing something so that we could get that order process and get it out on time. He really didn't care. He used to talk to me and said Greg, I'm only five or 10 minutes late. I said, well, then, get up 15 minutes earlier and get the work five minutes earlier. And he just said I'm not going to do that, that's my time. He didn't care. Now he was going to junior college and I know this was allegedly a means to an end this job, but multiple occurrences just was getting to the point where talking to him, writing him up, wasn't getting us anywhere. Bottom line, we had to terminate him and that was tough. It was tough for me personally, because you hate to fire somebody that's actually a decent employee, but he's not a decent employee. They can't be there on time. And it can't be there on time because he's unconscious and he doesn't care. There's not a whole lot more I can do.

Speaker 1: 12:38

And I think that the challenge sometimes is explaining to probably entry-level employees what's involved in terms of an agreement. What does an agreement mean and what does it mean to work at will? I think maybe you can talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 2: 12:59

Absolutely, john. I'll take the employment at will first. Most states in the US are employment at will, which mean they can fire you just because they look up today and say, yep, don't want to have you here. You can't sue us or you can drive. It's not going to go very far. That's the way it works. But I like to take a deeper dive into the employment agreement because in theory, and I would say, surely in reality, the employee does work and the employer gives them compensation, benefits etc. It's a nice exchange. That's the agreement. I'll work my tail off for you and do a good job, you're going to pay me well, you're going to train me, you're going to do those other things, and it's a great exchange. And if you're in the unconscious state oftentimes you're not thinking about you're into the bargain. So the gentleman I talked about clearly felt hey, you're here for me, I'm not here for you. Right, agreement is just for those other people. I'm going to get here when I can and do what I can.

Speaker 1: 13:50

What's the problem? Those other people that are?

Speaker 2: 13:52

here on time. Yeah, those folks that are making me look bad. I don't care about the other people, I'm just worried about me. And clearly his viewpoint of the employment agreement was wrong, was not good, tried to help him get where it needed to be. It didn't happen, had to terminate.

Speaker 2: 14:11

But every once in a while you have a situation where you have someone going through some really difficult times. No one here has not heard about alcoholism or drug addiction or things like that. Employees have that happen from time to time too, and there are folks that when they fall into those traps and they're facing those demons, if they're willing to try to get better as a company, as a manager, you probably want to try to help them. Do that as well. Use the company program or similar program and help them overcome those demons and get back to work. And are they getting special treatment?

Speaker 2: 14:41

Yeah, but you're also taking a gamble that this good employee can be good again and reliable if we help them and support them through this treatment and this treatment period, and I've had situations where it was extremely successful. But I will tell you I felt better as a manager, as John and I talk about trying to help people, trying to help a good employee. Continue to be good, overcome some bad things and do better. And again, a lot of the times, we were able to get that to the place where it should be so.

Speaker 1: 15:13

If you've been listening to other podcasts, there's a constant theme of responsible, and just what you're identifying is if that person wants to take responsibility for trying to recover from their addiction and are stand up about it. If you're lucky enough to work with an organization that complies and helps and has programs and sometimes that's what you're looking for is you're looking for an organization that has the ethical approach and has the employee's best interest in mind. If somebody's going to go into those programs for mental health, for addiction, for whatever it is, they're given a chance to heal. They're not given a blank check and they can do whatever they want. There's expectations of progress and time, but it isn't you're fired. It isn't the first response. As you're fired, we will work with you. We will do what we can to make that transition. You also want to find organizations that have that identified as part of how they describe who they are. That really does help.

Speaker 1: 16:20

I have another example of a negative image an unconscious employee and it's one of those harder ones that I have from my past. So I had a tradesman who had almost 40 years on the job and he had worked in the same organization on basically a similar job over that same time and did a great job. Organizations was talented, confident. Was he able to do as much towards the end of his career as he was able to do at the beginning of his career? No, but was it quality work? Yes, it was. It was, but he was doing things in terms of forgetting and some of those things that showed issues in terms of how he was handling the senior years of his time, and he was petrified that people were going to start to try to fire him because he was old and I could tell that we were not helping him at all. And I asked him to come to my office and we were going to talk about his next steps and what's his plans and he sat down and I'm trying to prod him on what do you want to do and how are you transitioning? And he said you're going to fire me. I said no, but you're not going to work forever, so how are we going to transition? I'd like you to help people make that transition so we can learn from you and give you a chance to try to have some fun in the process. It's a little bit less work, but there's nothing wrong with that, and I'd like you to get involved with some of our new employees and help them in terms of training. You have a trade, you have a very specific skill set. They like to pretend they know everything and then that's when we had a little bit of fun with it. But he knew that his experience was necessary for that transition and he could help that skill set and bringing up others and there was a little bit of pride in that.

Speaker 1: 18:30

But the most important thing and the reason I wanted to bring up the example is I said you earned your retirement. You've done so much time to put in to get yourself to this point. Why not enjoy it? You don't want to literally work the last day and pass. That's not. There's some moments in time where you can do something in terms of hobbies, there's some things that you have interest.

Speaker 1: 18:54

Now I've turned the conversation a little bit, trying to help him look forward. That planning forward, that MBR skill of looking five years out, 10 years out, where are you going to be? What do you want to do? Have a plan.

Speaker 1: 19:08

And he started to explain how he really enjoyed motorcycles and he loved taking rides on motorcycles. Like perfect. So do you have a motorcycle? No, okay, and what kind of motorcycle would you get? And all of a sudden I'm talking about motorcycles and retirement and taking trips and visiting with people and he's starting to see himself in that next light. How much time did that take? 20, 30 minutes of my time and helping him brainstorm about retirement? No, he didn't retire that day, he didn't retire for like three months or maybe four months after that conversation.

Speaker 1: 19:46

But he had a plan and he agreed to putting together a date and he had a progression on how he wanted to help people, what he was trying to do, training them.

Speaker 1: 20:00

I guess one of my biggest successes that I helped him with is dignity as he was leaving the job, to have that sense of pride that we all shared with him on how much he has done and really celebrate the hard work that he put in and really how the organization was better because of him. Now the organization I was working for are one of those larger organizations that have a hard time seeing people in a facilities position that he was in, but even they understood that kind of dedication, that kind of effort needed to be recognized and all I had wonderful examples of executive management wishing him well as he was going through his retirement. What a different image he had than he had when he walked in my office the first time to talk about retirement. You're going to fire me. The best compliment I got was from his daughter saying thank you, and I got a kiss on the cheek and you've made it something that he was proud of instead of something that he was embarrassed by.

Speaker 2: 21:06

John we've talked about this before. You thanked him for his service. Like I said, you gave him his dignity and you let the survivors, the other employees, see how you're accompanying, how you, in particular, as a manager, treated people. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:21

So is that a responsible approach? I would hope that is a responsible approach that we're trying to promote and it doesn't take that much time. Step in your shoes, imagine what it is at your end of your career and how you want to be treated, and hopefully you can celebrate all the things that you've been able to accomplish, or at least the people who you've been able to work with over that period of time and the joy that you found in it. You know, I think that kind of covers the majority of what we were going to be talking about today, greg. What I'm going to be talking about next podcast.

Speaker 2: 22:00

So, john, this is a series, so a discussion on the five levels of responsibility focusing on self-protective.

Speaker 1: 22:08

Yeah, yeah, and sometimes people who are in the unconscious go in between the self-protective and the unconscious and you'll see some similarities to people that we've been talking about, because those are characteristics, and you'll see how that responsibility ladder kind of interchanges a little bit and hopefully that starts to make some sense. So, if you like what you've heard, there's that music. Building your Leadership Toolbox is my book. That's available on Amazoncom and Lulucom. My e-book is available in Barnes. Noble Success Secrets and Stories is the podcast that you're listening to and it's also available on Apple, google, spotify and others. Dr Durst's books and his MBR program is available on SuccessandGrowthAcademycom and the music has been brought to you by my grandson.

Speaker 2: 23:02

So, greg, thanks, thanks, john, as always next time.