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Success Secrets and Stories
Welcoming Workplace - Breaking Hiring Barriers
Could shifting your focus from degrees to skills revolutionize your hiring process and boost your business's success? Join us for an eye-opening discussion with our HR expert, Greg, who unveils how modern hiring practices are evolving to meet industry demands. We promise you'll learn how to attract top talent by crafting clear job descriptions, minimizing biases through anonymized resumes, and empowering diverse interview panels. Discover the transformative potential of skills-based hiring and why it's becoming essential in today's technology-driven world.
Our episode sheds light on real-world examples, from Goldman Sachs to military recruitment strategies, demonstrating the power of skills over traditional credentials. Greg shares invaluable insights on fostering an inclusive company culture that not only welcomes nontraditional candidates but also encourages career progression based on competencies. We discuss the importance of ongoing training for hiring managers to identify and neutralize unconscious bias. By embracing this approach, you can unlock a talent-sharing culture, promoting growth for both employees and the organization. Get ready to rethink your recruitment strategies and harness the critical role of skills in shaping the future of work.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
I'm your host, john Wendolowski, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, greg Powell. Hey, everybody, yeah, and today we're going to talk about a subject that I think is very important, especially right now, in terms of a subject that I think has a lot of conversations about. I believe that the hiring process is a very important process to talk about and maybe give it a little bit more of a definition. When I think about the subject and I know a little bit of the background of the hiring process, there's so much to it that really doesn't meet the eye, and when people talk about whether they're doing a good job hiring people, I'm going to push back and say prove it, because I've seen more people doing it wrong and people that I've had reporting to me doing it wrong, and one of the things that I've had to work on to make sure that they were doing it right.
Speaker 2:The best example I can give is I'm an engineer and I did a lot of construction work and it was always interesting to hear how you're doing. A gold standard or a silver standard or a platinum level, kind of environmental, epa, kind of building, and these ratings are very important in terms of the quality of construction and the organizations that I was working for wouldn't pay for these additional awards, but we would go over and say that we were capable of either hitting a bronze or a silver or a gold. Most of the work that I was involved with was either gold or platinum, because we were dealing with the right materials, the right supplies, the right kind of engineering approach in terms of success, in terms of results that you're expecting from heating systems and cooling systems. It's doing it right the first time. Very basic.
Speaker 2:It is not exclusive to just engineering. It does mean the same thing in a hiring process. It does mean the same thing in the hiring process Understand what's involved in terms of what it means to hire. To be in my world, to be inclusive, is to be accurate and to be complete and to give a good picture of what you're looking for for a new candidate, a new employee. I'm going to actually hand this over to our HR professional. Greg, with the experience that you've had in this field, why don't you kind of warm up the subject of what it means to hire the right way?
Speaker 1:Thanks, john. So introduction to this topic would be something like this A key challenge for companies today is the battle for attracting and retaining top talent. You got to get engaged in that battle. You got to do it well. The right talent drives the best results of those best business results. So the challenge cascades down to a responsibility for hiring managers to find this talent. They've got HR support and they've also developed an interview team that's helping them source and appraise the best candidates possible.
Speaker 1:But to achieve a successful outcome requires much more than simply posting a generic job opportunity on a random job board. So let's talk about some key considerations. Create clear job descriptions that emphasize skills, experience and competencies that are really needed for the job. Consider removing identifying information from resumes and applications that might cause a little bit of bias to come out. Develop standardized interview questions, including behavioral interview questions, for all candidates so that you minimize those unconscious bias situations. Assemble interview panels with individuals from different departments and different backgrounds to leverage diverse perspectives. Use structured assessment methods like skills tests or job simulations to objectively measure candidates' abilities. Company's mission, values, vision, culture includes things like their attitude towards collaboration, innovation and inclusivity. Provide ongoing training for hiring managers and interviews on recognizing and mitigating the problem of unconscious bias. Conduct regular skills tests on the hiring process and expand your reach past a wider net and we'll get into that a little bit more as we go along here and finally, summarize the recruiting strategies to create an inclusive hiring process that focuses on candidates, qualifications and potential. John.
Speaker 2:And Greg. Those are the points that I really wanted to try to emphasize during this podcast. There's so much more to hiring, but you can do it right and you can do it wrong. The examples that I've found that have been interesting is understanding your culture, understand the department and the organization that you're working with. Can you describe the culture that you're working in organization that you're working with? Can you describe the culture that you're working in? Can you describe the culture of the person that you're looking for and how they would fit that culture? More importantly for me is skills. Now I found a very interesting article called Competency Over Credentials the Rise of Skill-Based Hiring from the Boston Consulting Group, and they had this great article on the rise in skills of based hiring from December 11th 2023, which I think is important. So, in terms of the authors, I'm just going to say you should look it up there. It's a great group, but there's also hard names for me to pronounce, so I'm going to move on and talk about their article.
Speaker 2:I found their first sentence probably the most interesting. It's been the call of the death of the degree, and static college degrees seem to be less relevant with the rapid change in technology. Employees are now asked to have more dynamic, involved skills and to up those skills again and again, because the industry is changing all the time. People looking for employment agree with their 2022 BCG survey that many of the job seekers wish that they could look for more skill and experience instead of degrees and certificates, and now many of the companies are doing just that, but how much and how successful. To be a little bit more precise, they went through and BCG worked with Lightcast and they found a way of doing a big data research of over 20 million job postings, and I think that's the important point of this article. This is a pretty broad stroke of the brush to see what it means in terms of a degree and skills they go on and talk about.
Speaker 2:As noted that technology is the driving constant and the need for new skills, especially in the advent of AI and generative AI, but according to Pearson's Business School Research, only 13% of the college graduates have the skills needed to start a job right away. Furthermore, 54% of college graduates don't work in the original field of study. You put a point on that. The jobs that will be available in five or ten years may not even exist today. For all of these reasons, the value of a traditional degree has become a question mark. At the same time, organizations are struggling to find talent that they need. Unemployment remains remarkably low for a workforce that is aging, and open positions remain unfilled. Moreover, employees that expect to have the opportunity to evolve workers increase their mobility and they also are looking for flexibility. They are also on hold for the power of the market to see where the greatest competition is at and where talent is being actually pulled. Meanwhile, candidates are self-taught who are gaining their skills and their experience and becoming the major workforce in the labor market. In the US alone, 70 million people can be categorized as STARS, which is workers without bachelor's degrees that are skilled through alternate routes.
Speaker 2:Stars, the ensuing tug of war between skilled individuals and organizations must rethink their approach to recruitment. They must widen their recruitment lens to capture the diversity of skills and their experience of changing workforces. They need to shift from the degree to the pedigree, the will and the skill To embrace the skill-based hiring. They have to tear down the paper ceiling that keeps individuals without a degree from entering certain occupations and advancing to where they can be productive. Educational credentials are not only indicators of success. We also advance to approach and hire on skills, experience and potential.
Speaker 2:Now they did talk about the paper ceiling and how it doesn't erode across all marketplaces. In the United States you see almost a 4% drop in degree-based requirements, where Canada sees a little bit of an increase. The UK and Australia are showing both like 1.8, 1.6 kind of drop. Singapore, on the other hand, has asked for more degree type individuals by the tune of like five, five and a half percent. So a paper ceiling, I think, is the piece that I want to challenge. But I also want to bring up the point that this article is talking about skills and culture just as much as paper, and that's really the theme of our podcast today. Greg, maybe you can add to that concept a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, john. There is definitely a paradigm shift from having degrees and focusing on degrees to learning about importance and the need for skills. The US leads a shift to skills-based hiring across career areas. Many large employers with a sizable US labor force are embracing the trend Companies like Dell, accenture, ibm. Us government is too. In fact, back in January of 2021, the White House announced limits on the use of educational requirements when hiring for IT positions, looking predominantly at college degrees. It said let's be careful not to exclude capable candidates and make sure that we're not undermining the labor market efficiencies. So degree-based hiring is essentially likely to exclude qualified candidates for jobs Again, folks that have the ability and capability and skills to do the job. You don't want to eliminate them. In Canada, uk, australia and Singapore, there's a lesser shift and a different mix of career areas affected, and there's a chart that talks a little bit about that. I'm going to ask John to expound on that a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What they were doing. The original graph that they were showing was the United States showing a three I'm sorry, 4% kind of drop and at the end of the day, they had all these different trades that they were talking about Agriculture, business, communication, finance, healthcare, transportation, you name it. In the States, across the board, they can see a decrease in terms of people looking for degrees, and it's not by 1% or 2%, it's like 18% in agriculture, 6% in clerical and administrative positions, 10% in construction. So people are starting to understand that in a tighter working pool that talent is out there. They may not have a degree, but they can show the capacity of doing it.
Speaker 1:Greg, engineering is the only field where the paper ceiling remains in place, and John and I talked about that a little bit. I was hearkening back to my previous role in HR for a company that used a lot of electrical engineers and power systems engineers, and John's own experience in education would support this as well. So employers in four out of five countries have increased the demand for degrees in this field engineering. This may have to do with safety concerns, regulations affecting such roles, as well as the highly specialized nature of engineering jobs. Shorter courses and on-the-job learning may not easily replace the competency needed to get those degrees.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what was interesting is that while you're looking at hiring and you're looking for whether skills make sense, there's a wonderful article that I came across and it's a message from the American Psychological Association that they delivered years ago that still stands true today To hire on skill versus one that's on education. You are five times more likely to predict job performance. For their analysis, they looked at the promotion rate and the tenure for these companies, using US as an example only, because basically the United States was the pioneer in skill-based hiring. The promotion rate generally those hired based on their skills get promoted at a rate comparable to traditional hires and they will only see 2% less likely on the average to be promoted in the same period of time. This suggests that skill-based hires perform at the same level, similar to their peers who have degrees, and they are first ones to be able to actually see the opportunity for promotions because of their experience and how they actually work within the organization. Skill-based hires for things like community social services, hospitals, healthcare, education, customer service kind of positions all those show a real trend to skill-based hires rather than degree-type hires, and I think the challenge for anyone that's trying to hire right now is to be able to make the distinction between what is a skill-based hire versus a degree Degree is kind of a safety net For me. The article is talking about how these degrees sometimes have no relevance to what the industry is doing currently. For me, I always considered someone with a degree as the capacity to show that they're willing to learn. You gain that same kind of mentality if the person has built their skills in the same kind of methodical approach basic to advanced to be able to show and demonstrate those kinds of skill sets.
Speaker 2:The other interesting technical part of hiring by skill is the type of people that you're hiring are going to stay with the organization. They tend to stay for a longer period of time an average of 9% longer than other skilled trade hires. And that trend is true in most industries and professions because it is pronounced in the trades and the transportation and food industries, as well as in the public administration, the information, the communication technology, professional services. They all stay longer. Their experts underscore the trend of skill-based hires, have better problem-solving skills and, in general, have more interest in exploring the firm, the company that they're working for. So their experts found that there was a trend that skill-based hires have had better problem solving skills and were more interested in the organizations that they were working for.
Speaker 2:That kind of approach demonstrate their high engagement and their motivation. That's really what you're looking for when you're hiring someone. Those are the ones, those are the skills that you're looking for. More so, the character, the culture those are the key words that you should be looking at when you're hiring. Greg. Why don't you roll this into a little bit of a better description?
Speaker 1:Thanks, john. How can organizations succeed with skills-based hiring? So the first thing is challenge the biases in your talent strategy today. Be more open-minded. Is a degree really required for a specific job? We've got data that indicates that the paper ceiling is vanishing even in jobs that traditionally call for a degree.
Speaker 1:Goldman Sachs recently shifted to what is called a skill set recruiting approach Through the company's new online platform. Candidates don't apply for jobs. They apply to specific skill areas, then participate in skill testing and get referred for the most relevant jobs based on their skill sets. Know the skills you need. We've got research that says that skills-based job ads include a higher number of skills than traditional job ads. Traditional data scientist job ads, for example, list approximately 28 needed skills, whereas skills-based ads for the same role will list as many as 37 skills needed. So skill-based ads especially over-indexed on transferable skills such as collaboration, communication, which can be a foundation for success in any job. Up your skill assessment game.
Speaker 1:The big risk when hiring people based on skills rather than a degree especially a degree from a tried and true institution is the lack of proxy proof of candidates' qualifications. So instead, employers have to obtain that proof by assessing and testing candidate skills, which they often are prepared to do or don't know how to do it efficiently. They can look at other proxies like micro-credentials, learning badges from short often digital courses. I think you get the picture. They could also test candidates by asking them to demonstrate skills like writing code, participating in a trial period, things like that A supportive and inclusive culture.
Speaker 1:Sometimes the main barrier to skills-based hiring is cultural Managers want to hire people who went to the same schools they went to. Recruiters don't want to take a risk on people from nontraditional backgrounds. Many company leaders follow traditional routes and expect their successors to do the same. In such an environment, skills-based hires may feel discriminated against or simply just not welcome. So, john, we talk about casting a wider net, and so I'm not going to pick on any schools in particular, but if you always went to such and such state or such and such university because they're top notch in winning awards and notoriety and maybe teaching a discipline that you need, you forgot that there are other schools that are also very good. They might be smaller, have not the notoriety, but offer the same kind of training. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:And we talked about this in one of the other like casting a wider net. I had technical positions, military people across the board who have gone from an entry level and shown progression through their technical positions to a higher ranking, demonstrated the skill sets and do a very good job of understanding what shift work means, working in order to get results. They're motivated, they're wonderful employees and that broader net, that whole idea of looking for better examples of what we're looking for for an employee and culture fit in very well in what a lot of military people that I hired and culture fit in very well in what a lot of military people that I hired.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Greg. So, John, let me build on that. I worked for a gentleman who was a former general in the Army, ran logistics for a very big retailer, and we found out that folks that had worked in the military liked working in logistics centers. They didn't mind shift work, they understood the importance of product not moving it too much, knowing where you put things, discipline, safety that was their life, and we started creating a channel of recruiting opportunity there. And my last company, engineering company we found some folks in the Navy that did exactly what we do, and if we didn't seek out folks from the Navy, we've missed an incredible opportunity for some talent. And so, again, casting that wider net is going to be non-traditional places to get really qualified folks, and some may have degrees, some may not, Some may have certifications that they've earned in the military net and proven they can do the job right. So so that's what we're talking about when we talk about casting a letter net.
Speaker 1:So then let's keep thinking about skill base. It's not just about hiring. After they brought skills-based hires into their teams, employers should continue to support those employees through career progression. So promotion should be based on skills and should other internal moves and talent decisions. So the reason you brought them up to the company? Because their skills should help them stay with the company and progress throughout your organization. So several talent marketplace tools help facilitate this. However, a move like this requires a significant mindset shift in the organization from talent hoarding to talent sharing, from talent hoarding to talent sharing. So managers as well as the HR function need to get more comfortable with enabling skills-based, flexible career paths. So just because you brought this person in and you took that risk they're doing a good job for you doesn't mean they're going to stay in your particular part of the organization. They may stay with the company, but be willing to give up that asset. John.
Speaker 2:And that's career development. If you're doing something for the employee and that you're going to really appreciate, it's not holding them back from going laterally and having an opportunity to grow. If you're doing your job right as a leader, you're trying to encourage other departments. If they see that opportunity for advancement, they deserve it and that's one of the positive things is that you're hiring good people that can work in the organization in other locations. I'll tell you right now that's going to help your career as much as it's going to help their career. So let's try to wrap this up and try to give you a little bit of an idea of what we're trying to talk about here.
Speaker 2:Skills are really as important as having a degree. Understanding what is a culture of your environment, of your workforce, of your work application is just as important as doing a good job of putting in an ad and having the right words on what you're looking for for an employee, because you're spending a little bit more time detailing what you're looking for and hopefully people can see that connection. And probably the most important thing is throwing that wider net being open to different people and different opportunities. Is that inclusive? You bet it is, but that isn't that it's a bad idea. It is actually being professional. It's actually doing your job right. It's not doing it to meet some kind of quota. It's doing the job to make sure that you're doing the kind of work to get the talent that is available and giving them an opportunity to succeed. I hope this helps a little bit, because I believe that the requirements of how you hire people is dependent upon the leader. You have to take the responsibility to do a good job of pulling in the best candidate for your organization and if you do a wide net, you're going to do a very good job. If you do it from your favorite school and from that one university, I guarantee you you're going to find yourself trapped by that very parochial view of looking at one opportunity Expand and you'll always do better than trying to do it in a vacuum.
Speaker 2:So, if you like what you've heard, yeah, I've written a book called Building your Leadership Toolbox where we talk about subjects like this, and the book is available on Amazoncom and Barnes Noble and other formats. The podcast is available on what you're listening to, thank you. It's also available on things like Apple and Google and Spotify, google and Spotify. A lot of what Greg and I talk about is from the MDR program and that is really a very good program that you can find on successgrowthacademycom. They have training programs and books available and a very good course. If you want to contact us, we have a website called wwwauthorjawcom and the music has been brought to you by my grandson. So we want to hear from you. We appreciate the input. We've modified our programs on some of the comments that we've received from you and we are always encouraging you to try to give us a hand on what you think is important that we should cover. So thanks, greg.
Speaker 1:Thanks, john, as always.
Speaker 2:Next time yeah.