Success Secrets and Stories
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Success Secrets and Stories
Interview: Unlocking Workplace Culture, with Laurie Clarke
What makes a workplace culture truly effective? According to organizational change expert Laurie Clarke, it's found at the critical intersection of talent and design—where people and systems align to create meaningful impact. Join John and Greg as they interview Laurie on her insights of management as a consult for executive leaders.
Clarke brings powerful insights from her two decades working with global CEOs, revealing that supervisors and managers are the essential "glue" holding organizations together. These middle-level leaders face unique challenges, caught between executive directives and frontline realities that often seem misaligned. Her solution is refreshingly straightforward: people fundamentally want to make progress on meaningful work.
Throughout the conversation, Clarke shares transformative examples—like the disengaged call center employee who viewed his job as "just people wanting money" until he understood he was helping fulfill educational dreams and potentially changing life trajectories. This shift in perspective doesn't require additional resources, just clearer connections between daily tasks and meaningful outcomes.
The pandemic-driven remote work revolution forms another fascinating thread in the discussion. Clarke explains how remote work exposed weaknesses in organizational cultures that already existed, creating a "quilt" of individual home environments versus the consistent "corporate blanket" of office culture. While productivity metrics often improved during remote work, innovation declined—highlighting the irreplaceable value of spontaneous in-person collaboration.
Perhaps most valuable are Clarke's practical approaches to cross-training and flexibility. By allowing employees to experience different roles, organizations build versatility while helping people understand their impact across the system. For executives and managers implementing these ideas, she recommends embracing uncertainty—the most effective leaders acknowledge what they don't know, articulate desired outcomes clearly, and give teams autonomy to develop solutions.
Looking to transform your team's culture or navigate organizational change? Connect with Laurie Clarke on LinkedIn or at laurie@laurie-clarke.com for executive coaching, team development, and strategic consulting that builds capability from within.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Hello everyone and welcome to Success Secrets and Stories. I'm your host, john Wynoloski, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, greg Powell. Greg, hey everybody, hey, yes, and today we're going to have an opportunity to have an interview with Lori Clark. And a little bit about Lori.
Speaker 2:Her degree is from Toronto University and she has two decades of experience collaborating with global CEOs and founders of organizations. She has worked in strategic change, a catalyst of change, organizational change. She's done a lot of change and she has focused on the customer's experience, developing teams and to deliver value. A lot of what she has done is working with the finesse of human experience and to design not only the cultural but the effect of rapid growth and having people prepared to make those changes and understanding the concept of being a strategic partner. That's a wonderful background of the things that you have done, lori, but maybe you know, since I don't think a lot of CEOs are listening to our podcast, we have a lot of supervisors and managers that have learned things from Greg and I's perspective. Welcome to the podcast and tell us a little bit about the stories that you know about the supervisory side.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me. I think that the supervisors and managers are the glue that typically holds the organization together. So while you work with a lot of CEOs and leaders to get what they want done, it won't happen unless you have really strong managers and supervisors within the company. So I think that they're sort of the hardest worked and often the least paid attention to area within a company.
Speaker 2:So, greg, maybe you can add something in terms of a HR perspective, in terms of what Lori and her background relates to as far as leadership.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Thanks, john and Lori. Fascinating phenomenal. What you do, there's a need for it out there. Don't stop doing it. From my little HR perch I guess, working my way up doing the entry-level jobs recruiter, trainer, employee relations and all that work in the management leadership, HR had a chance to take a more profound role in helping organizations get better, deliver value, deliver more value and kind of untap or unleash some of the things that were just kind of being hidden behind, and I think a lot of it was just taking the time. And when I think of culture, I think of, yeah, we talk about COVID and what was going on in the States and whatever, and how people not being in the same office next to me and whatever that meant. But the culture thing has been around for a long, long, long time. And so can you take us back like 20 years when you first started getting involved in this kind of work? What were you working on at that time?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so typically, companies come to me and leaders come when they have a variety of problems, whether it's from a lack of growth, they need to reduce expenses, they want to develop leadership, and, at the end of the day, they all have this feeling like culture is really important to success, but it's not really something they can quantify. They don't really know how to do it. Every time you look at a company that's been successful and they say, oh, look at the culture. It's almost going backwards, trying to recreate it, and the truth is that you can't.
Speaker 3:Every company has a different mix of resources, every company has a different mix of talent and they exist in a different time.
Speaker 3:So I think that there is a great misunderstanding either of what culture is and how to create it, and so the outcomes of leadership development, customer growth, expense reduction really are all byproducts of getting things in line to get the culture right, and for me, the culture is defined at that intersection of talent and design. It's right in that middle and that balance that you go back and forth with, and anytime they become disconnected or you're working on them separately, you're going to start seeing some of these challenges pop up, and then you start. In my opinion, you start seeing leaders play what I call corporate whack-a-mole, where they're just running around trying to push down the problems, hoping they don't pop back up again. But they do, and so typically what we do is just, first of all, take a deep breath and try to get rid of all of the distractions and go back differently and engage people on the teams to be able to get excited about being able to fulfill those goals.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So that message in terms of working with different individuals you've also worked with CEOs and presidents of organizations and they have the same issues. It's just that you'll see, the entry-level people don't understand the mechanics of it and maybe a little bit about helping them in terms of self-awareness, in terms of your coaching, maybe you can talk about that a little bit for them to be able to tune in and listen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so. I feel like it's actually a lot harder for them because they're getting all of the information from the frontline and from the customers real time, and they're getting all of these directives and strategies and goals and high-level things that are coming from executives and sometimes, when you put them together, they don't make sense right. And so I think the very first thing is to understand that when you become a manager or a leader, engagement of your team comes from one person principle at its core. People want to have progress on meaningful work, and so when you think about that and you say what's meaningful to them, often we hear strategies and high level this is what we do, this is our why and you hear stories of what goes wrong, but what you don't often hear is that that really this is what we do and why we do it. And that's where you, as you know, as a manager and a leader, a supervisor level you can go and you can make sure that your team is constantly connected with why they're there and what's meaningful in the work that they do.
Speaker 3:And I've I've tell this story sometimes about a young gentleman in a contact center and we were doing this big design change and he was, you know, checking the football scores when I went to go ask him a question and I said you know, I'm sorry. Uh, you know, I will come back when you're not on break. And he is that I'm not on break. And I went and he said I'm not on break. And I went there's 55 calls in queue.
Speaker 3:I mean this is a different problem and I said so, why aren't you answering the phone? And he said it's just people wanting money. And this was a student lending center and it was just very apathetic. It's just, you know, I'm an administrator, I take the application and I throw it off to the side, and so what it realized there is there was a huge disconnect to what they were actually doing and so going out and telling the stories you know it's.
Speaker 3:It's sally, who had to take time off to to raise, you know, their her children always wanted to be a nurse is going back to nursing school. It's. It's jack, who was sick as a child and now wants to be a doctor, is going back to nursing school. It's Jack, who was sick as a child and now wants to be a doctor and he needs to have this to fund his education. You're not giving them money, you're fulfilling their dreams and in fact, when you answer that phone, you might be one of the most life-defining people for them, because you might change the trajectory of their life. And how do you then get that story out? How do you get that reminder out to people? And sometimes people will say well, well, yeah, that works if you're, you know, customer facing. But what if I'm a risk manager? And it's sort of the same message.
Speaker 2:Look, you're super important.
Speaker 3:You have to be able to work with the business to fulfill customer needs, but you need to make sure there is a business to fulfill customer needs. It's an incredibly important job. You can't say no all the time, you're not expected to say yes all of the time and you start having those conversations. That defines meaningful work. That's the first part. Then we have to look at progress.
Speaker 2:But what is your reaction to that? Yeah, finding meaningful work and understanding the importance. My career was from facilities and housekeeping, and usually two organizations that get very little respect. During COVID, all of a sudden, it was 100% changed because we were saving lives on the things that we were doing. But you brought up a very interesting point and I would just want to go backwards a little bit. One of the interesting things that I found during the process of leading was taking a look at a person's job description and sometimes they would repeat the job description to me and how it was impersonal and outdated and didn't mean anything, and it's an interesting exercise in what are you asking them to do specifically? What kind of reference? Well, it shouldn't be just a job description. There should be more to that. Maybe the process of a job description, maybe more. What kind of setup should there be to get employees to understand the importance of their job?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple of things you can do that you can show them, first of all, the full experience of the customer from a business, so that they have context to where they fit in and how it fits in. And if ever you find yourself saying we don't fit in, that's a good question to go to your leader with and say I don't understand where we fit in, so how am I supposed to engage a team if I don't understand it? Right so, really making sure that you understand the full picture, how you fit in, um, because that creates that ability for you to bring forward the success stories and feedback to other areas of the company as well, right so?
Speaker 3:you don't feel like you're just doing that checklist of a job. I haven't really seen too many job descriptions where the person actually does that Right. So you know, like the job description in a contact center answer the phone, take the application, push the button to submit, hang up phone. Answer the phone. That's not what you're asking him to do, right. You're asking him to be the face to your company You're asking him to do right. You're asking him to be the face to your company. You're asking him to engage and understand a little bit more of their needs.
Speaker 3:In the end, with that particular client, we asked them to maybe not even give them a loan. We asked them to help them figure out the financial journey to education, which sometimes might be leading them to sites that the government gave grants or private ways to get you know some scholarships, versus saying your job is to take applications and close loans. So I think once you become really clear about what the full journey is, what you're trying to achieve for customers where you fit in, then you have those conversations with your team that say you know this is what success looks like. We often get really focused on what people aren't doing well, but what you focus on grows. So if you start focusing on this is you know this is a bad call. Listen to how bad this call is. Everyone's going to start finding the bad right.
Speaker 3:But if you go, listen to this is a great story, this is a great call. This isn't conventional, you know. They actually did. They went off script. I had one experience recently where I had a terrible customer experience and I tried to cancel my service and throughout the call the person kept saying thank you for being a loyal customer. It drove me insane and I said just skip it. Just skip that part. If you had context to it instead of a script, you wouldn't keep thanking me. It's really frustrating me and he's like I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:And then he goes through the next little thing and he's like and I just want to once again thank you for being a customer. I was like.
Speaker 3:I'm trying really hard to not be your customer, and so that's where these differences come in, right. If you say here's your job description, follow the script, answer the phone, submit the button, that's the kind of thing you get, and I think there's so much pressure on you. Know, first-time managers and leaders that they have to hit these quotas and the goals that they have set are all very time-driven and quantitative that they lose sight of those qualitative pieces that actually quantitative, that they lose sight of those qualitative pieces that actually help you get those outcomes better right.
Speaker 3:Or at least go back to your leaders and say this doesn't work. You can't tell me to fulfill their need and do it in a minute and a half. I can't say yes to everything that comes on my desk and protect our company from potential harm. And that's where I think that at that level of the organization, they get expectations from both sides. That grounding it again and here's what the company does, here's what we're here for, here's what matters most Allows you to go back to your leader with some really good questions, but also then guide your own team in figuring out how best to feel that sense of value and motivation with what they're contributing to the company.
Speaker 1:Greg, this is fascinating and I'm going to throw you kind of a trick question, but I know you know the answer to it. When John and I were coming up, there was a group of people called the Baby Boomers and there was a group before us as well and they told us the leadership, told us how we were going to act, what clothes to wear. They defined the culture and either you were part of the culture or you were out of the company. Well, we're older now, we out of the company. Well, we're older now We've got kids, grandkids, whatever, in the workplace, right, and guess what? They have voices. There are some Gen X and Gen Z who have kind of said no, no, I don't feel like that today. What do you mean? I come in the office every day.
Speaker 3:I want hybrid minimally. I'd rather be fully remote. Have you seen that come into play? Yeah, so I mean, I think that there's so many um ways that we can work, and I think that sometimes we get really prescriptive on how we're going to work and we say it's three days, it's these days, it's not this. You can work from home, but don't work from home and do this, and what we're losing sight of there again is you're not giving people the autonomy to know what to work, when to work, where to work.
Speaker 3:If I really knew my contribution and I understood it, and I understood that it's important for me to be in the office at a specific time for a specific type of work, I would. But if I lose sight of what it, if I'm just saying, why are you forcing me to do this? You're not really trusting me to know when and how to do it, Then that's you know, that becomes this lack of engagement. That's where people want to come in even less. But I think the companies that have the most problem with you know, figuring out how to make hybrid and remote work is because they already had a very weak or inconsistent culture. Because they already had a very weak or inconsistent culture. So if you think about it like the way you described it before, you left home and you almost put on your work uniform it might've been a suit, whatever it was and you go in and there's a culture in the office and that that has a set of rules of engagement, ways that you speak, how you work, who you work with all of that times, et cetera, and then you would go home and then you're home, you right.
Speaker 3:And then what we did is in in COVID we had everyone was home, them at work, and so we went from having like the corporate blanket that was pretty consistent to a quilt and we were just like we don't know what's going on with quilts. Like quilts are really challenging and I don't. I'm seeing like kids and dogs and home life and and who you're around really impacts how you behave. And so you know there are times where, like I go into work, I'm very patient with my clients, I'm very patient with my teams. I come home and if you see me with my team, sometimes I'm just like I the dishwasher, the dishwasher is right, you put it on, not in like it's right there, you know, Um.
Speaker 3:And so I think what we started doing is we. We lost what the culture of the company was and we kind of brought our home cultures in, which is not bad, it's great. It's just we didn't know what to do with it. And so when the company standards, the company kind of vision of this is who we are and what we expect of our company wasn't strong enough. It just got so messy with people, and that's when you got the edicts to come back, that's when you were just like I don't know what's happening, Everyone back in, and that's not the right answer either, I would say to those leaders I would say your culture is pretty weak.
Speaker 3:You should really work on that. Maybe you need everyone back to fix it, but probably not. You just need to put time and effort into it right. So you know, and that's the design part, that's why the talent and design, that piece in the middle, that's what defines your culture.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:So for me, I think that there's a social element that's missing with all this at home element and they don't know how to actually verbalize that the whole thing about talking about the water cooler, and can you emulate that? Can you, can you duplicate that? Is there ways to try to get a social exchange of ideas from just you know, different departments that have an opportunity just to share casual conversations, and it's kind of hard to do that artificially. And some of that is if you have a company that is more engineering based and it's product based and you don't have that kind of social environment. Okay, but I think it's really hard for a lot of organizations not to have some element of social exchange and that whole thing about being isolated and people feeling lonely.
Speaker 2:I think that's part of the piece that they can't seem to verbalize. I find that some organizations like engineering teams that gives you context and give you contacts in order to meet people and ask questions about the industry. Nobody attends the meetings any longer. They'll do it virtually and that's a poor way to try to create those connections. But I think that's the piece that I found really challenging. I don't know if there's any comment that you want to make on that observation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd like to make two. Actually that came to mind. So during COVID in Canada, we were at home for about three years and the kids were homeschooled for a lot of that and is. One day we were out in the front of the house and a kid from his class and the mom was walking by and the mom started talking to me and my son was really rude to him and I they left and I said I don't, I don't even know what that was. And he said well, we don't get along, I don't like him. And I said you don't have to get along, you don't have to be friends, but you can't be rude. You need a base level of respect for the fact that this is a human being. And so when he was going back to school, he struggled and he said I don't want to go, I don't like half the people in my class.
Speaker 3:And what I realized is, for three years, the only people we hung out with were people we liked, because it was that's what you did. And I said well, you need to go back to school and you need to learn how to work with and respect people you don't necessarily like. Like that's not a great thing, and I think we've done that in work a lot. Our tolerance level for differences has declined. We hang out in our neighborhoods and with our friends and with our family and people we choose, but actually a lot of innovative ideas and creativity and even just thinking about ways that an engineer learning from a marketer is a brilliant thing, and we don't actually engage in that way of different industries and different way of thinking and people we don't particularly love, like we're not going to go hang out with them on the weekend.
Speaker 3:We still can learn from them and we need to learn how to work with them. So the challenge with purely remote work is I find people lose that ability and that is a real disadvantage. When we look at the productivity numbers, productivity improved but innovation declined, product launches declined and part of that is they're messy. I design a lot of things and it's a messy, messy, messy, messy environment. People are talking over each other, people are reaching over each other. I don't know how you do that. Virtually you also feel an energy, because humans give off a natural energy and that positivity just doesn't come across the screen and I don't feel that.
Speaker 3:You know, you don't feel that vibe when you're in a room. That's a that's a really important component to remember. Now, if the company you work for is saying, nope, we're hybrid, make sure that you figure out a way to to engage people, to want to come back at least some of the time, to have that feeling, to gain that insight, to bump into somebody I don't know, even just when you're down getting lunch and you're out and you're engaging with all of these people. Some of the best lessons I've ever had in my life have come from the most bizarre places. You know the, the sandwich person or my taxi driver or and I go.
Speaker 3:that was so profound, and like the universe conspired to get me that message today. Um, the messages I would get in my house might just be from my teenagers and I'm not sure that's going to enhance a lot.
Speaker 2:I just want to make a little bit of a point. What you have just said is so hard for other people to understand that is so on the mark of why there's a real hard time of people making a transition. I'd love to put a star in that if I could verbally, but wonderful explanation. The other piece I saw that you help people with was cross-training, Similar to what we're talking about having the ability to understand other people's perspectives. If I'm reading it correctly, you help that concept of cross-training.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the other part from whenever we're talking about the talent and how people know what they're doing and how they know what a good job looks like and how they communicate and meet and make decisions the other aspect of it is what I call design, and design is a design of the work, design of the organizational structure, design on how the work flows, technology, how it comes into play, and so when we're really looking at it from, how do I build the best customer experience and everybody that's supporting it? Then you can look at that and say, well, how do I make sure that? That progress part you know people are engaged and motivated when they make progress on meaningful work that progress piece is the other part that leaders generally don't, don't look at. So progress for me would be I don't want to do the same thing every day, so I want to learn different aspects of the work and I want to be able to be pulled in as needed. By the way, that's really good for the company, especially if it goes through ebbs and flows and workflow, to be able to shift people to where they're needed, when and how they're needed, and it's not just you know frontline what we think about in a, a processing center or contact center. We've built that design in in a hospital, in a cancer um center, where nurses can change, so they're not always the primary care nurse. They can move to different areas and get a little bit of an emotional and mental break, but also can be called into areas of need when they're needed.
Speaker 3:That is not a typical view because it's usually the more you can do something exactly the same way, the better. But it's also when we're looking at progress for these individuals, it's their ability to have that sense of value where they can give feedback and contribute into the change in the design and the innovation. If you're constantly doing the same thing over and over again, you're reinforcing that. The status quo is the limitation of this job. You can have complaints, you can be upset, you can say this doesn't work and someone says just do it anyway, Right. But when you kind of start floating around and seeing different perspectives of the business, you may even realize you know it's something I do in that other role it really makes this job harder for these people here and I can go change that and this gets easier.
Speaker 3:It gives a lot more engagement too from just a mental. You know the way that they're mentally engaged and they're learning. Because we love humans, love to learn. I mean, I try to convince again my kids this. They don't always agree, but they but we do Right, cause when they're, when you're not learning, you don't feel, you feel like there's something missing. So to be able to give the progress, they have to be able, your team has to be able to have the ability to make recommendations for the design and how things work and you need to facilitate it working really well for them If they feel like it's being impeded they're doing.
Speaker 3:You know the infamous TPS report that someone just shreds and I actually even saw that once the mailroom would put one document in a mailbox to be mailed and one in this other one, and one day we watched where that big stack went and it literally went to the third floor to be shredded and it was just like everything I just did was to shred, like there was no point to it.
Speaker 3:You don't see those things if you don't give people the room to follow it through, to look at different areas to interact and then give them the autonomy to try things right, safely. Try things, you know, experiment with something different, try to change it up. And so I guess for this level of leadership, there's sort of a bit of a I don't know what the right word is but maybe there's a fear of allowing the team to kind of try different things, because you're getting all this pressure from above. But you know, just remember what it was like when you were there and also give structure to it, right? So you know the the the ultimate goal would be to teach your team how to think about problems and how to think about the way you want them to approach things, not what to think and what to do, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Oh it does. I'm pretty sure your experience with CEOs and presidents there isn't someone who is so single-minded, that didn't have experiences that were more inclusive in terms of different departments and different ways to grow that they ended up being CEOs. That's very limiting. Some people have that orientation. Engineers are kind of noted for staying the course and not really wanting to stretch out, but the people who are at an executive level, cross-training isn't really a shock. It's sometimes expected. So, dealing with executives that you've dealt with who seemed to have done the best in terms of growing his team, growing his department, doing that element of cross-training or whatever the mechanics were that you were able to help them with, mechanics were that you were able to help them with.
Speaker 3:So I being open to not knowing the answer and saying I don't know. You know, most of the time they have an idea of what the answer should be. But if you want to set the really bad tone to the company, it's to constantly tell people this is what and this is how. Um, because, quite frankly, you may not be right. You may be right, but what's the harm in having people actually come to that conclusion on their own? So the best ones are the ones that say I don't know. Here's my experience, here's the problem, here's what I want to see happen as an outcome. Figure it out. Then they have to allow them. They allow them the autonomy to go out and do it. So that's often where you know I help, I go and I help define. What do you think the problem is? What do you think, what do you, what is your outcome you need? And then I take that and I help create cross-functional teams that will go and look at defining that problem.
Speaker 3:Sometimes the executives have the problem wrong. We were working, this team was working on an e-commerce and they said okay, we want to do a two-day delivery, we want to be just like Amazon. It's got to be two days. And we went out and talked to customers, and the customer said I don't care if it's two days, but I just want to. When you say it's going to come, it has to come.
Speaker 3:It wasn't a time issue, it was an accuracy issue, and so, then, uncovering what causes the accuracy issue is a totally different thing than figuring out two days that led to all of these new discoveries, a solution that fixed the problem but no one would have assumed up front. So, giving them the room to go out and explore and understand, being willing to be wrong, being willing to say I don't know, bringing experience, but being open to it not being the answer, and then allowing them to change it, then allowing putting the money and the resources into changing it. Nothing will frustrate a team faster than giving them the autonomy to come up with the best solution to a problem and not implementing it Right.
Speaker 3:Because, then you will never have them come up, even if they have a million good ideas. What's the point? Never have them?
Speaker 2:come up, even if they have a million good ideas. What's the point, greg, you have any other questions?
Speaker 1:I probably have a bunch and I'm going to drive Lori crazy, so I just want to thank her for the time and the expertise she shared with us.
Speaker 2:I'm good, so, lori, tell our audience a little bit about how they can contact you and the different things that you can do and help them if they're looking for some support yeah, so I'm currently online on linkedin or you can uh laurie at laurie-clarkcom.
Speaker 3:You can email me there too. Um, I do executive coaching. I do design work with teams. So if you have a problem and you want to be able to have a team of yours to go solve it, I work on customer experience and leadership development, figuring out ways to help your team, like I said before, know how you want them to think about problem solving and critical thinking. So, yeah, really redesigning and structuring, transitioning a company.
Speaker 2:And the whole idea of your organization is that you're there to help. Especially, you're talking about, maybe, some middle managers and they're looking for resources. It's what you've done, so awesome yeah it's build the capability internally, it's it's.
Speaker 3:You know, it's usually never a people problem. In my experience, I think people come to work wanting to provide value and really wanting to do a great job. I think most of them have every skill they need to be able to do it and often it's just distraction and miscommunication and too much work with too little time that puts people into positions where they don't feel like they can succeed. So helping remove that and helping figure out exactly how to put in place the structure to succeed is everything for me for my job.
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome. We learned a lot, but more so we learned that there's an element of what you've done to encourage people and the background that you have to help them be able to step back and see. So it's wonderful work.
Speaker 1:Thank you yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that concludes our interview and we want to thank Lori Clark for her time. It has been fun and I really, really have found it engaging. Thank you, Lori, for taking the time.
Speaker 3:Thank you, lori. Thank you for having me, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, if you like what you've heard, yeah, my book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. The podcast is available on what you're listening to, thank you. It's also available on Google and Spotify and Apple. A lot of what we talked about is really coming from a book from Dr Durst and his management by responsibility program. That really inspired us to do the podcast and it's something that you can find on successgrowthacademycom and if you want to get a hold of us, there's my website, authorjwcom, and the music is brought to you by my grandson. So, thank you for taking the time and, laurie, thank you so much for being on our program and thanks, greg. Thanks.
Speaker 1:John, as always next time yeah.