Success Secrets and Stories
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Success Secrets and Stories
Culture Killers: The Hidden Cost of Difficult People
Difficult and toxic employees can devastate workplace morale, crush productivity, and drive your best talent out the door. Join John and Greg's conversation as they explore the article: Dealing with Difficult Employees by Michelle McGovern, HR Morning, from March 2023, as she highlights the alarming reality that 70% of employees have quit jobs because of problematic colleagues, with research showing that toxic culture is ten times more likely to cause turnover than compensation issues.
We break down five distinct types of difficult employees you've undoubtedly encountered: the blame-shifting colleague who refuses accountability, the ego-driven know-it-all resistant to feedback, the perpetual victim who sees sabotage everywhere, the bully creating tension through direct or passive-aggressive behaviors, and the productivity-killing slacker always seeking to do less. For each personality type, we provide concrete management strategies with practical dialogue examples to help you navigate these challenging dynamics.
The episode distinguishes between merely difficult employees (who can still be reasoned with) and truly toxic individuals who actively undermine workplace culture. We emphasize the critical importance of swift intervention, thorough documentation, and clear boundary-setting when addressing problematic behaviors. Through real-world examples from our own management experiences—including one particularly dramatic confrontation with a union contract-wielding employee and another near-physical altercation—we illustrate both effective and ineffective approaches to handling workplace toxicity.
Whether you're dealing with subtle passive-aggression or outright hostility, this episode provides a roadmap for addressing difficult behaviors before they infect your entire organization. Our straightforward advice will help you protect team morale while developing the confidence to take necessary action, even when that means making the difficult decision to terminate a toxic employee. Listen for practical strategies you can implement immediately to create a healthier, more productive workplace culture.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Well, welcome to our podcast, Success Secrets and Stories. I'm your host, john Winooski, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, greg Powell. Greg, hey everybody, yeah, so today we're going to talk about managing people. To be a little bit more specific, managing difficult people, and the best definition of an employee that is difficult is an individual whose behavior creates problems in a workplace, often negatively impacting production, morale and team dynamics. These employees can exhibit various behavior issues, ranging from chronic negativity to poor performance or disruptive actions, or to lack of cooperation. I think the short version would be a pain in the you-know-what and we all have those experiences, and I think the most important thing is number one is to recognize them and number two, to address it, and that's what we're going to talk about a little bit. So the article is actually rein in your most difficult employees. From an HR perspective. It isn't to fire them the instant that they've been identified. It's to work with them to find a way for them to try to move beyond some of their characteristics.
Speaker 2:And the article was written by Michelle Ngoverin from HR Morning and it was published on March 31st 2023. Rein in your most difficult employees. She starts out with these aren't employees that cause legal trouble as much as harassment or bias. They are employees who frustrate their managers, drive their co-workers crazy and often spark negativity in their work environment. They are culture killers. In fact, 70% of the employees say that they have quit jobs because of difficult co-workers, bosses or managers, and more than 80% of the employees say that a difficult colleague has slowed down or completely stopped work. According to the research by Zoom Shift, the most difficult employees don't just annoy others.
Speaker 1:They hurt productivity, greg. So, john, there's five really attributes of most difficult employees and we're going to talk to you about how to handle them as well. The first one we call the blamer, right, you remember when we were talking about NBR before the blame game? Right, it's never the blamer's fault. In fact, it's always somebody else's fault. He or she loves to point fingers, or, often, before anyone asks what happened, he or she won't be accountable. So, from a strategy standpoint, focus on the facts, whether you're trying to get her to take responsibility for an error, be specific with behaviors, times, places and definitely what are your expectations. For instance, you finish the inspection at noon. The machine broke down at 1210, and the problem was on a part you inspected. You missed a checkpoint, and I'd like to review the process with you now. Again, very clear about the behaviors and things that you don't want repeated.
Speaker 1:The second one are the most difficult employees. It's the person with the ego. In MBR terms, that's the achievement. This person's full of themselves. They know everything that needs to be known about the job. The company, operations Just ask them, right, often reluctant to hear feedback and make changes because, well, hey, they know everything. So your strategy should be something like this Conflict them on their ideas and initiatives, those that are really positive and constructive. Then maintain your authority, by holding the feet to the fire, to act on all the ideas. So right, you got all these great ideas. Make them happen. So, for instance, you're onto something with your thoughts about the problems in our billing system and suggesting that we overhaul it. I'd like to see three proposals from you for the benefits analysis of each by next Friday. I think you're kind of getting the drift there, right.
Speaker 2:Right, and what's interesting is that the management sometimes reflect the people at the same time.
Speaker 2:So, as much as they can be difficult, I think the next one is one of those examples. When I think of management and who has been in this kind of category as victim, mbr uses the term unconscious and the victim thinks that nothing he has done or she has done is wrong. If something goes wrong it's because others have sabotaged them or often are holding something that they did years ago against them and therefore he's not going to have, or she's going to have, a successful day. Your strategy is to empathize without enabling To help. If he or she believes that they are a victim, listen to their issues, acknowledge their feelings, but stop short of validating them. Encourage them to take action. I understand that you're upset. Chase was picked for this project. You weren't. It would be a good idea if you offer help in gathering research, since the data is your strong point. So part of the challenge with the unconscious is to engage them.
Speaker 2:The next is the bully, or, as MBR would call it, the conformist. Some bullies just are mean, as MBR would call it the conformist. Some bullies just are mean. Others are passive-aggressive. I think passive-aggressive is the ones I've run into the most Are able to push around others and undermine them Even worse. Many of them don't necessarily break rules. Instead, their toxic personalities put people on edge and create a state of unhappiness. Your strategy Tackle the bully straight on, because if you don't, it can turn into harassment and lawsuits. Point out the behaviors, incidents and results. Explain consequences for the behavior. For instance, you shouted three times during our meeting. People were upset. If you shout again, I'm going to pull you off the team and note that this is the first strike. Offense Two more and you can be fired. So you're not only trying to address the problem, you're talking about consequences.
Speaker 2:The last one is the slacker or, as MBR puts it, the self-protective. The biggest problem with the slacker is they don't necessarily care that they are adding no value to your group. They do the minimum and they look for reasons to do less. Your strategy more structure. Slackers need specific goals quantities, quality, timing.
Speaker 2:Instead of setting goals that play to the slacker's strength, make sure that you're making goals that are clear and apparent. For instance, sid, I want you to make 11 customer calls by noon today. At least half must result in a sale. How will you make it happen. You're stepping back, you're giving time, you're giving goals, you're giving quantities.
Speaker 2:You're telling a slacker the thing that they don't like specifics filed under the terms of being performance management. That's how you have the ability to try to help that person take that next step. Now, former employees that I have dealt I've had the unfortunate opportunity to say that I've worked with all of them and I've seen them actually destroy organizations and take on the next step or, if they're just ingrained in how they're doing their jobs, like the people that I've dealt with, like victims, are just going to walk their way into the point of being fired, and you have to have the ability to take that next step. Start with the premise of getting them to work and helping them to understand change, but at the end of the day, you have to do the right thing for the organization.
Speaker 1:Greg. So, john, early in my career I had an opportunity to work with a slacker All right, and this was in a shift situation, shift operations. We were on third shift, so not all the departments were working in the building at nighttime. This young man was built for comfort, he was cool, he was smooth and he was very subtle and he knew how to make a cameo appearance right with a group and at his workstation and then quietly slip away. I had to be honest, I was pretty much a neophyte as a supervisor. Back then, a fellow employee ratted him out and gave me his location of where he would hide. So I was waiting for him at his hiding place and I told him. I looked him right in the eye, I said I'm giving you a verbal warning because you need to be engaged in this job and you need to be responsible. And then I said if this happens again, you will be terminated. That scared the mess out of him. He was never an all-star employee, but he became reliable, which is really all I needed from him.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about toxic employees. Yes, there are difficult employees, but then there's those toxic employees that really can disturb your culture. So Revealio Labs they're a provider of workplace intelligence, analyzed 34 million online employee profiles, as well as company reviews, to identify US workers who left their jobs for any particular reason, and the timeline was between April and September of 2021. And they put down the reasons why those folks left. Toxic corporate culture was the number one reason why most employees left their jobs during that time frame. In contrast, how frequently and positively employees mentioned compensation, that ranks 16th in predicting employee turnover. A toxic corporate culture was more than 10 times as likely as compensation to predict a business attrition rate compared to its industry peers. Again, the toxicity is just that damaging and can be to a company. Let's talk about how infectious toxicity could be, though there's no doubt that toxic culture can flow from the top down right. We can blame it on the CEO, the C-suite, whomever. It may also originate within rank and file workers.
Speaker 1:Employees who are toxic can make their colleagues feel uncomfortable, they can damage productivity and morale, and they can lead to other workers becoming disengaged, disenchanted and ultimately quitting their jobs. Right, you know how hard it is to get those workers in there. You don't want to lose them for reasons like that. So, according to Lisa Sterling, she's the chief people officer at Perceptix Incorporated. A provider of employee listening and people analytics out of California. A provider of employee listening and people analytics out of California. A toxic employee is continually disruptive, complains about leadership and does not get along well with other employees. Behaviors demonstrated by toxic employees include things like this total withdrawal, lack of engagement, higher frustration than one might be perceived as normal, very easily agitated, very sensitive.
Speaker 2:They don't really have any pride in their work right and they complain about the organizational leadership. That's what Sterling had to say. Yeah, how about the toxic versus the difficult, which is worthwhile to talk about? Because there is a difference. While some employees may be truly toxic, it's important for leaders to keep in mind that there is a distinction between the two. It's important for leaders to keep in mind that there is a distinction between the two. For one thing, difficult employees may be more likely to hear managers out.
Speaker 2:Toxic employees differ from difficult employees based on the notion that difficult employees can be reasoned with and are open to conversations regarding their affected behavior. If an employee is remote, it may be harder to determine whether they're acting as a toxic manner or as being difficult. According to Libby, some behaviors to watch out for also include verbally micromanaging others during group calls and initiating gossip with other attendees via the chat. These actions can be toxic and quickly bring down morale. As with every work management leader, they must outline behavior, performance and communication expectations from the start. Jennifer Libby, kansas City, missouri-based district manager for an HR consultant firm, inspiree, echoes that same sentiment. Toxic employees can be identified as individuals who exhibit behavior possessing of put-down spirit and continuously making an effort to disrupt morale. Toxicity tips. Managers who know how to handle toxicity or a toxic employee have the prerogative to solve issues before they get out of hand are more than likely able to cultivate peace in the workplace.
Speaker 2:I think that there should be a little note here. You have to act on it quickly. It can't be left to fester. Here are some of the ways to do that and again, the point is address it the behavior, right away, regardless of whether the employee is toxic or difficult, remote or in person. Managers should take swift action to intervene before the behavior drives down the morale of the department or the organization as a whole. Waiting until they can disrupt others can create far more problems and cause retention issues.
Speaker 2:With your best, people, document everything. Exclamation point to that. To protect every party involved, include the company that they're working for. Managers should thoroughly document what is going on and to create a record Should action need to be taken against the employee. It is important and imperative for leadership and management to have proper documentation of the issue, take steps to understand and address it and what were the disciplinary actions that were taken. It's also vital for managers to record those steps that they have taken to address the employee's behavior. At the same time, listen to the employee and any issues that they may have with other employees issues that they may have with other employees. As Libby puts it that the toxic behavior has been identified, it could be helpful to separate the employees from each other, which means a different desk arrangement or different shifts. All the solutions should be documented. She adds that the manager should also detail the services or the resources they give to a toxic employee and how they did or didn't change in response. So, greg, I think you have more toxicity tips.
Speaker 1:I do, john, thank you. So the first thing is confront the employee directly. Right, we've been talking a little bit about that. Managers should personally confront the employee in question one-on-one, to make sure they give them a chance to address their toxic behavior. The behavior could be due to issues with leadership or individuals in the workplace, private matters outside of work and the home. In some instances, the employee may lack the self-awareness to see that the harm they're doing by their behavior is really hurting colleagues. Libby says when addressing concerns, foster a space of honest and open communication. Libby says when addressing concerns, foster a space of honest, open communication.
Speaker 1:Now Krasaw suggests that managers set limits and consequences for the behavior of the employee in question. Companies should also offer help via internal mentoring, external coaching. We're talking about employees that are really valuable right that you want to salvage. If the abrasive employee can turn around their interactive style, fantastic. If they can't, it's time to go. So Kara Shortsleeve, co-founder and CEO of the Leadership Consortium, which produces a leadership development platform in Massachusetts, says managers should give the individual direct and specific feedback and make your expectations clear. And you can say things like this behavior is not acceptable on our team, just call it out. And even if an employee brings tremendous value to a company, they can also cost it a great deal. John, you have an example of perhaps a difficult employee.
Speaker 2:I do. I had worked in a facilities environment and we had a number of engineers that were associated with the boiler room and the boiler room was a very complex version in his shirt pocket and he was constantly like pulling this out and talking to his leads and his supervisor on a regular basis on how this complies to the union requirements or not, and he and he treated it like a Bible. If it wasn't in the union contract he wasn't going to do it and he made the work environment just impossible for people to get along. Everybody knew that he was I don't know the term bully, blamer and slacker all applied to this guy. It was unbelievable and people who were in this toxic kind of environment they put up with it for years.
Speaker 2:I walked in and understood that his case file in the HR department was almost two inches thick. I mean, when I just started to read a little bit about the individual, it was like years of his behavior that has been documented but no one took any action. Well, it wasn't too long into his time that I was working there at the same time that he started to harass one of the supervisors and he did something that was bizarre to try to describe, but it was like a chest bump and kept on chest bumping and shouting. And let's just say that it wasn't the being that close. Shouting is not a good idea. Make a long story short. I pulled him in and I fired him for being physically abusive to leadership in terms of striking leadership. And he said well, how can that be? I was chest bumping him about how he was asking me to do a task that is not part of our union requirement and I stopped him and I said and this was the part that was probably inappropriate but I brought the same weapon that he used to me and I read from the union contract what it was that was considered fighting on the job and how he took responsibility. Since it was only him that was initiating the contact, he was fired on the spot.
Speaker 2:He was fired on the spot. It was the frustration in his face of realizing that this contract was his weapon against everyone and I took it away from him and I used it to address him. He was a toxic employee for years. It needed to be addressed and I took care of that early on in my career, not allowing him multiple occasions and giving him another chance and another chance. This was it. He stepped over the line. He made one of those kind of infractions that there is no black and there is no gray. It was black and white. So firing people who are in this position that show a history of doing it needs to be done, because the effect on the rest of the team was, as we've been talking about, affecting everyone, and the comments of if you're not going to do anything with him, we're going to have a harder time dealing with the rest that are somewhat frustrated. It just multiplies. So, bottom line, you have to do your job. Greg, I think you have another example.
Speaker 1:I do, john. This is one I'm not necessarily proud of. I will call it definitely a learning opportunity. But during one of my first supervisory experiences I had an employee I inherited, despised all members of management and had been at the company over 10 years and so I was on one shift, he was on the next shift and he would come in literally right before his shift started. So he had a starting time and he wasn't going to do anything early to help with the overlap or whatever. But as soon as he hit the door he's complaining about what my shift our previous shift had done wrong and how we had left the work area in a bad place. He had a lot of experience. Scary smart guy. He could do the job backwards, but he didn't like training people. Scary smart guy he could do the job backwards, but he didn't like training people. He definitely didn't like mentoring people. He made it his quest to embarrass and undermine supervisors. He just hated supervisors, leaders, managers, and we were not a union shot.
Speaker 1:I was really junior in my supervisor experience. Again, I'm not proud of this, but one day I had enough and he knew what to push and he pushed them. I exploded inside but I lunged towards him and we both had to be restrained Again. I'm not proud of this, but I'm telling you how far it can go, how tough it can be. So fortunately no blows were exchanged. Cooler has prevailed. I was given a verbal warning as a supervisor, as I should have been, and he was as well. But I quickly recognized this was a life lesson. I took it to heart. So it's never easy. There's not always a quick fix solution, but again, I learned over time, john.
Speaker 2:So the whole part of management, the reason that we do this podcast, is to talk about the things that are important for you as you look at your career and what is those expectations as you look at your career and what is those expectations, you're not going to experience the leadership responsibility without having that moment in time where somebody's going to have to be fired. Looking the other way is only compounding the problem. Address the problem straight on and it's the easiest answer. No one enjoys firing anyone. Even the example that Greg was talking about, where you're coming to, blows. The bottom line is they have a family, you have a family. It isn't something that should be flippant. It should be thought out and I think that's the biggest challenge for anyone in leadership understanding that you've gone to the limit and you need to take that next action to terminate. So I hope that what we've talked about has helped you and it makes some sense in terms of what you need to do to take that leadership travel that we've talked about over these many podcasts. So thank you for everyone who's helped us with the trail. But if you like what you've heard, yeah, we have a. I have a book on leadership at amazoncom building your leadership toolbox.
Speaker 2:You're listening to our podcast on whatever format, thank you, but it's also available on Apple and Google and Spotify and a whole bunch of other ones. So tell your friends. Apple and Google and Spotify and a whole bunch of other ones, so tell your friends. We also talk a lot about Dr Durson, his MBR program, and you can find that information at successgrowthacademycom. And if you want to get a hold of us, we have a website at wwwauthorjawcom, and the music has been brought to you by my grandson. So thank you so much for getting a hold of us. We still want to hear from you. You help us with our programs, you help us with our subjects and our titles, but most of all, we know that we're hitting the mark and you have found our podcast is being helpful, and that's probably the best part.
Speaker 1:Well, greg thanks, thanks, john, as always.
Speaker 2:Next time yeah.