Success Secrets and Stories
To share management leadership concepts that actually work.
You are responsible for your development as a leader. Don't expect the boss to invest the training budget in your career. Consider this podcast as an investment of time in your career, with a bit of management humor added at the same time.
Success Secrets and Stories
Beyond the Title: The Real Reasons We Step Into Leadership
Leadership isn't merely about a title or position – it's a deeply personal journey shaped by unique motivations and developed through structured experiences. When asked why they became leaders, most people reveal fascinating stories that blend practical considerations with deeper aspirations to create positive change.
From our hosts' candid reflections, we discover how leadership journeys often begin unexpectedly. John initially pursued management as a reaction against poor treatment, seeking to create more respectful environments for maintenance and facilities staff who were unfairly labeled as "necessary evils." Meanwhile, Greg's sociology background led him to supervision, followed by a detour through sales before finding his true calling in direct leadership. These authentic paths remind us that leadership development rarely follows a straight line.
At the heart of effective leadership growth lies the research-backed 70-20-10 framework developed by the Center for Creative Leadership. This powerful model reveals that 70% of leadership development comes from challenging on-the-job experiences, while 20% derives from developmental relationships like coaching and mentoring. Formal training, contrary to popular belief, accounts for just 10% of leadership growth. Cross-cultural research across China, India, Singapore, and the United States confirms that while learning sources may vary by culture, certain fundamentals remain universal: managing direct reports effectively, developing self-awareness, and executing responsibilities well.
The most successful leaders take charge of their own development by proactively seeking growth opportunities. Whether through cross-training programs, connecting with executives during your first 90 days, or requesting challenging assignments that stretch your capabilities, showing initiative signals your leadership potential. As our hosts emphasize, the first three months in any leadership position are critical – use this time wisely to prove yourself and establish valuable connections.
Ready to accelerate your leadership journey? Grab John's book "Building your Leadership Toolbox" on Amazon or Barnes & Noble, and share your own leadership experiences with us at wando75.jw@gmail.com or gpowell374@gmail.com. We'd love to hear how you're applying these principles in your own leadership path!
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Well, hello and welcome to our podcast, success Secrets and Stories. I'm your host, john Wondoloski, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, greg Powell Greg hey everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So today I wanted to kind of change it up a little bit with our podcast and we usually cover the subjects in terms of leadership and I thought I'd kind of go more to the root of the whole idea of why we did this podcast. Why do you want to become a leader? So, just for a second, when I originally went into management, it was a reaction to how poorly I was being treated by a certain company that encouraged me to get into leadership. They really considered the maintenance department and the housekeeping department as necessary evils. They would actually say that the next line was usually that we were not contributing to the bottom line. Now, you know this is 2025. That was a while ago. In 2025, I think they understand the importance of facilities and housekeeping and maintenance departments. They've grown a little bit in terms of how the operations work, that if those teams aren't capable for me, when I was in the healthcare side, they would shut down hospital operations. So why did I want to become a leader? Well, one was that reaction to how I was being treated. But let's go a little bit more to a personal perspective and I think Greg and I want to talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:For me, you know, the simplest things were the ones that come to mind first. Better hours I was on a day shift instead of second shift or third shift. That meant something. Less time working on the weekends. Technically I didn't have to work on the weekends and I didn't when I had a choice Less risk of injury.
Speaker 2:As a mechanic, I was doing road calls, I'm doing heavy equipment, I'm lifting heavy weights and there are accidents. They just happen. That's part of life. There was better pay and what I find interesting, whenever you get leadership and you're a supervisor, there's going to be occasions when people are paid overtime and working weekends that their pay is going to be better than yours. It's all the trade-offs on whether you thought the first three things I brought up were important enough to have a paid difference. It's a cleaner working environment.
Speaker 2:As a mechanic, that was a big deal for me, but the two really were more of the reaction of what really drove me to leadership. I wanted to create a better work environment and a little bit more respect for the positions of maintenance and facilities and housekeeping and project teams, that they weren't an expense, that they were actually a part of the organization, and I wanted my career in terms of leading people that I could actually protect, people that were being picked on. To be honest, within the organization, they were marginalized and I wanted to give them their moment in time and respect. Greg, what was the motivations that you had to become a leader?
Speaker 1:So, john, when I was in college as a sociology major or psychology minor, that was one of the vocations I was told that that degree would apply to. So I started applying for jobs as first-line supervisor different shifts, different companies, different industries and I got it. I got that job and it's like fantastic, this is great. So I did it on one shift and then I did it on another shift and somebody came up to me, someone that had influence, a leader in our organization said you know, greg, you'd really be good at sales. I see you in our sales organization and we have an opening as we speak and it'd be a promotion for you if you got it so right I'm impressionable made sense. He says I can do it, why not?
Speaker 1:So I did indeed apply. I got accepted, went to the class training, went to the field training, got moved out to a chicago area from kansas and probably three, four, maybe six months in I noticed this probably isn't for me. Um, there's some really tough parts about sales, like cold calling and sometimes closing the deal that I just wasn't naturally good at and didn't think I was going to get naturally good at it anytime soon. So tried it out for about a year and a half. Decided at that point, go back to my roots, which was first line leadership, and so I met Mr John Wondolowski, and the rest is history.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those were fun days, but what I thought was interesting, though, our experience with larger organizations, fortune 500 companies. They had formal training programs, different approaches, obviously, different applications, but actually having that training as a part of when I was interviewing and understanding that that was part of the program, that they would give me the opportunity to learn and teach me the craft that really intrigued me in terms of accepting the position. I don't know, greg, did you have that same experience of hearing that at the entry level?
Speaker 1:So I was looking for a good quality company to work for, and one of the things this company had was training. They had formal training and some of the training was in like a town 20 miles away and there would be other supervisors like myself learning some of the same things at the same time Also being able to engage, create community. But it was formalized training and it definitely was to my advantage.
Speaker 2:So you had a subject that you know about and that's something that you can talk about. That was new to me. That I didn't know was a formal program 70-20-10. Take it away.
Speaker 1:Thanks, sean. Yeah, the 70-20-10 rule for leadership development. Now we're going to talk about a Cindy McCauley. She's a PhD who's done a lot of work over 30 years at Center for Creative Leadership. I was fortunate to be able to take some coursework at CCL in Colorado and incredible information, incredible learning, et cetera.
Speaker 1:But what is that 70-20-10 framework? What does that mean? So it's a research-based, time-tested, classic guideline Again, a guideline because you can maybe 80%, sometimes maybe 65%, sometimes right for developing managers. And it emerged over 30 years of lessons of experience. So it's been research-backed, documented.
Speaker 1:So, according to the 70-20-10 rule, leaders learn and grow from three types of experience. That's what the model looks like. All right, 70% leaders learn from just challenging experiences and assignments. Yes, sometimes with those assignments they make mistakes. They learn from those mistakes. Sometimes experiences may not be the most pleasant, but again, they learn from those experiences. Now you're saying what about my coaching and what about my mentoring? That's the 20% developmental relationship piece. That's really helpful in the 70-20-10 framework. So that's good. If you have that now, don't give it up. And then, of course, every once in a while, you still need some coursework, some classroom training, and that's really about 10%. So, before you came into this thinking, oh, 90% is coursework, classroom training that would probably not be optimum for you.
Speaker 1:So the underlying assumption of the 70-20-10 rule is that leadership can be learned, that leaders are made, not just naturally born, and CCL Center for Creative Leadership believes that, today more than ever, a manager's ability and willingness to learn from experience is a foundation for learning with impact. So let's just break down those three types of experiences another way the impact that it has on executive development. So it's pretty basic. 10% courses right, if your company has a curriculum and they offer courses on this, that and the other 10% of what you're going to learn will get from coursework. 20% from other people again coaching, mentoring, peers, things that you hear from other folks and that you see up close. That's very helpful. But on-the-job experience remember what OTJ we used to call John Right, right, on-the-job experiences and challenges. That's the bang for the buck, that's where you really get the investment back. So, john, give us a couple of your reactions to training.
Speaker 2:Well, for me, I thought it was kind of interesting that I didn't understand the 70-20-10, and I actually experienced it. So when we were talking about this, the more I talked about it, the more I realized that the organizations were actually following those guidelines and my career went from manufacturing to healthcare to higher ed and a combination of those. But you know that you're dealing with a good organization, an organization that actually is growing and is mature. It is capable. They have these kind of training requirements. I guess my biggest challenge is as a new employee. If you're interviewing, that's the other piece that you have to do your homework. You have to research the organizations that you think you want to move to, and this whole thing about asking about the training programs and the specifics we're going to talk about a little bit later on the magic word cross training All those things are important to ask on the front end. Greg, what's your opinion of the 70-20-10?
Speaker 1:So I'm a pretty big fan of the 70-20-10. And if a company offers that like you're applying for organizations and you see that they have robust training in that, I'd say, jump on it. It absolutely should be part of your criteria for selecting an organization, because that means they want to develop you, that means that they're willing to look at a multi-pronged approach to helping you learn and be a better leader.
Speaker 2:And this article goes on and says basically 70-20-10. Yep, definitely With experience-driven development, which experience contributes the most in terms of learning and growth? Experience is that key specific leadership lessons can be learned from each of those experiences. Sometimes it's that storytelling that you have within management of what happened before, and not so much that you can never do it differently. But don't relearn a mistake. That experience has already happened, we don't need to do it again. And it's to help most of all that experience conversation, that experience component to match your learning needs to the experience that most likely provides that element of learning. In terms of their research, they had researched and mapped out the links of experience to lessons learned. That was the biggest driver in terms of change. It was experience.
Speaker 2:As far as I'm concerned, talking about experience and developing within a 90-day period of time, I think one of the biggest challenges for people coming literally from the street and taking that position is you have to understand there's a 90-day period of time to see whether you're capable of doing the job. You can be fired, you can be let go after 90 days if you just cannot apply yourself to the position. Most organizations don't want to do that, but where I've seen. That kind of kick in is when you take somebody from your hourly staff and you're trying to give them that opportunity to advance, and they have to understand that when you do that that's a little bit trickier because technically you can't go back to your hourly position, you're successful in the leadership position or you're gone and that is a big leap to take that step. So cross-training gives you the ability to at least test yourself to understand the other developmental growth things that you need to look into, those kind of elements of what does it mean to take that advancement, greg? Do you have any insight in that?
Speaker 1:So the same thing, john, when you're an hourly employee, you're trying to work your way up into leadership, you've got to have some skin in the game. So it's not hey, I get this promotion and I get this, maybe a little cubicle to work out of, and that sort of thing, and it just goes on and on and on. Not so much. You really need to prove yourself in the first 90 days that you're up to this. I had mentioned to John an example I had which was really sad. I had to let somebody go that was going from hourly trying to become salary. They were in that 90-day period and they were tardy and missed some days. I said dude, if you can't be here, how are you going to lead people and make sure that they're there? So it's not like it's cruel and unusual, but in that 90 days you're still trying to prove yourself and meet some I consider minimum standards to continue on the leadership journey, john.
Speaker 2:So she went on in her article and talking about sources of leadership learning from experiences, and what was, I think, unique from her article is that she's using research from China, india, singapore and the US and from that data they found something important in terms of similarities and differences. By the way, leadership is learned from experiences, but it's from the study of those four countries and I think what really stands out is number one bosses and superiors. Number two turnarounds. Number three increases in job scope or assignment. Number three increases in job scope or assignment. Four horizontal moves. Five new initiatives. Those were the ones that really pushed that learning from experience. The other part that was interesting is that the sources of leadership learning from experiences are different in each one of the countries, which I thought was rather interesting, and they talked about two key elements from each different part of the map of the world.
Speaker 2:China, the experiences in terms of learning would be personal experience and mistakes were the two key indicators that would push that needle of learning. In India, it's personal experiences and crossing cultures. Singapore, stakeholders, engagement and crises. And in the United States, mistakes and ethical dilemmas, and that was the one when I was going over this. It's like, uh, ethical, ethical dilemmas are the biggest challenge in us. I'm kind of coming from the from the point of view that if you don't understand ethics and you're in leadership, I have a hard time understanding how you got that leadership position in the first place. So there, there is discussions, I remember, with a number of organizations that set that ethical bar so that you understand SOX and some of the other regulations that we often have to work with. But, greg, have you heard that ethical training was that big of a key for new hires?
Speaker 1:So there are training courses for ethics, just to remind people about what their roles are in that. But it's a non-starter. I mean, you're either ethical or you're not. There's not like a five scale. I'm a one in ethics, oh, I'm a three in ethics, right?
Speaker 1:So let's talk some more about sources of leadership learning from experiences. Among the leadership lessons learned from these experiences, all four countries that John mentioned rank these three as universally important Managing direct reports, self-awareness and executing effectively. Right, Because at some point you've got to make the job happen. You've got to lead and make things happen. To adapt and grow, leaders need to be constantly involved in new experiences and challenges that foster learning. That's the idea here. Some of these new opportunities will come their way through new jobs, crisis situations, unfortunately, or just significant changes and challenges, but it isn't necessary to change jobs to find powerful learning experiences in the workplace. Let me repeat that it isn't always necessary to change jobs to find powerful learning experiences in the workplace, and in any job situation, leaders need to seek out and strengthen relationships with their boss, with their mentors, their peers, and that's going to help them contribute to their own growth and leadership.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think when you're talking about leadership, the universal, important managing direct reports, self-awareness Self-awareness is probably one of the most important elements of leadership To know when you're actually effective and ineffective. The next point is executing effectively. I think that's more of a result rather than a cause, but know when your message is getting across. And the other element that was very important, just to repeat it you have to seek out leaders and mentors. You have to be engaged in that process. You can't expect it to be coming to you. If it isn't, you need to step up and ask. But that's the other part of being a leader. There's times where you wait for them to do the information, but if you're in leadership, especially at a high enough level, and you're having a gap in terms of training, you need to ask. I need more experience with the accounting department. I don't understand the details. Can I spend a little bit of time? That's you taking that next step to be able to learn, greg.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we talked about this, John, and I agree. You can't necessarily be an introvert here. You've got to show confidence, you've got to stand up tall, asking for opportunities as a demonstration of how you will be as a leader as well. So it's a basic requirement to what we like to call get engaged with others in leadership as well. Courses of leadership, learning from experiences again continued At Center for Creative Leadership. Their work with the 70-20-10 framework reveals that the power of putting experience at the center of talent management so if you can see there's a target, a bullseye that experience is what you're looking for. It's an approach that emphasizes the pivotal role of challenging assignments and attracting, developing and retaining talent and, at the same time, highlights how the power of on-the-job experience is enhanced when surrounded by developmental relationships and formal learning opportunities. So again, it's a model, it's a framework. It's not just one of the three, it's all three and they do work together. In fact, the research from CCL on the 70-20-10 rule shows that challenging assignments are the primary source of key learning experiences in managerial careers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the thing that I found most challenging is when I was going through that first 90 days and I was actually talking to other department heads. Unfortunately, you don't have an opportunity to talk to a lot of the other VPs and executives, but if you're in the 90 days you have a golden opportunity to be known by the president of the organization, by the three vice presidency organization, and they are usually very generous with their time and really find it engaging and happy to answer questions. Be smart about those opportunities. Come there with at least good questions. Don't have a hundred questions for the executives but don't come in with a blank sheet of paper and walk in and miss this opportunity to try to gain some knowledge.
Speaker 2:But more so, exposure is your biggest key for that training program and if you're using it right, it's a wonderful step off to cross-training opportunities. They learn a little bit about you during that process. You'd be stunned at how many times that comes back. The other part that I think is interesting is experience can be either shadowing someone or it can be an exchange with a connection that you have on the shift. Depending upon how that person presents and how you receive the information, you have an instant contact with somebody who's training you. That's possibly a good ally as you go forward. That's your first place to work on your skills of leadership and peer communication Golden time, and you can't waste those opportunities, greg.
Speaker 1:You know, John, over the years I've seen some really good examples of folks that did some cross-training and really improved themselves. They improved themselves, for the company as well as their own careers. We talk about sometimes reinventing yourself, but it's amazing. Smart people are smart people are smart people. Curious people are curious people are curious people. Put in the right environment, they can prosper and and again make a greater contribution to the organization.
Speaker 1:And it's just the willingness to take that cross-training opportunity because it is a little scary, right. Hey, I got a good job, I'm doing fine, the pay is good. Why do I want to change? Well, you've got to be able to face that question and be comfortable with saying because I want to see how good I can get, I want to be a more critical asset to the organization, I want to expand my horizons, and so a lot of it is attitude and interest. But I can tell you so many times when people have come in and said I'm always going to be IT security, human resources, customer contact only, and they've made switches that again enhance their capability and actually help the company out.
Speaker 2:And the last point that was brought up in the article was the amplifier effect of the 10% coursework and just to quickly summarize it, it has to be up to date and it has to be impactful. There needs to be a good, well-designed program and sometimes you'll find out that you can influence the training by saying things that you think are missing and helping them to make that much more of an impactful document, an impactful period of time of coursework, and a little bit of what her article was trying to talk about is that that is the part to amplify it, to improve upon it, and I think the other part that she was trying to talk about is you're trying to establish a knowledge base and if you start actually doing the application and it just comes back to my experience of learning an accounting program and when I was done with it and I opened up the program to start, it was a different accounting program. They had actually changed it within the last like week, week and a half, and they didn't update the training program that I had spent like three hours or four hours working on. So making sure that it's, that it's up to date, that it's relevant to your assignment, all those things kind of kick in and help amplify the effect. Of course time, all those things kind of kick in and help amplify the effect.
Speaker 2:Of course time and the hospital application. I probably spent more like 20, 20, 60 trying to get up to speed with all the technology they wanted me to learn. So, yeah, you can see a real cause and effect when you have a good training program and that classroom is really pretty involved and pretty well planned out. Greg, have you had the experience that side of it in terms of how 70-20 piece of it actually played out, the ever-famous trial by fire side of it?
Speaker 1:So I've been fortunate to be working for companies that have pretty robust learning and development departments and familiarity with Center for Creative Leadership. So it's you know I can understand where that trial by fire approach could happen. But I've just been blessed that the companies I work for in fact one company I work for was smaller, and then when I came to the company I said, greg, we need a training program. I mean, they asked me for that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:Besides, you know, shoring up our benefits in our comp program and other things is we need a training program. So obviously things like the 70-20-10 rule are in my mind, because it's going to involve other folks. It's not just going to be me and my two-person department. It's going to require managers to participate and learn how to coach and mentor and give assignments and, you know, monitor assignments. So I've just been pretty fortunate to work in organizations that provided some level of framework for 70-20-10.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the humor I got. I remember my days of being a mechanic. It was pull your toolbox out of the trailer and good luck. What kind of job you're dealing with. That leader could have done a little bit more to help me out with the transition.
Speaker 2:So I think we kind of covered a little bit about the training program and a little bit of your expectations as a leader, and the 70-20-10 is a wonderful mathematical answer on what you should be looking at and what you should be doing. If it doesn't exist in the organization that you work for right now, you should be working on trying to develop it, because it has a wonderful effect in terms of keeping employees and helping employees grow. Giving them a good start is always the key. So, if you like what you've heard, I have a book Building your Leadership Toolbox. It's available on Amazon and Barnes Noble the podcast is what you're listening to and also on the formats of Apple, google and Spotify. Thank you. A lot of our discussions sometimes are based on the MBR program by Dr Durst and you can find his information on successgrowthacademycom and you can find his information on successgrowthacademycom. If you'd like to get a hold of us, my email address is wando75.jw at gmailcom and Greg.
Speaker 1:I can be reached at gpowell374 at gmailcom.
Speaker 2:And the music has been brought to you by my grandson. So thank you for listening. We want to hear from you. Drop us a line and uh, yeah so thanks greg, thanks john, as always next time yeah.