How Leaders Spot Burnout And Restore Hope And Communication

Burnout doesn’t always look like falling apart. Sometimes it looks like a capable person still hitting deadlines while quietly losing sleep, losing humor, and losing the feeling that their day is theirs. Greg and I start with that familiar late-night moment: one last email, a new problem, and the steady pressure that keeps your nervous system switched on.

From there, we break down a simple leadership framework that makes burnout easier to spot and talk about: the difference between living “above the line” (you still feel choice and traction) and “below the line” (your calendar, urgency, and anxiety push you around). We also get practical about what managers can say when someone answers “I’m fine” in a way that clearly means the opposite. You’ll hear specific opening lines, real questions that invite honest answers, and how to avoid the worst vibe of all: telling someone who’s drowning to “just have a better attitude.”

We also zoom out to the workplace systems that fuel job burnout, including themes found in the Maslach Burnout Inventory (MBI) research like too much workload, too little control, unclear expectations, and weak support. Then we move from empathy to action with a simple method: pick one concrete change that makes next week 10% better, and build a plan that helps boundaries hold, especially around after-hours email.

If this helps, subscribe, share the episode with a manager or teammate, and leave a review so more people can find practical leadership tools for workplace stress and burnout recovery.

Transcript

A Late Night Email Spiral

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Well, hello, and welcome to our podcast, Success, Secrets, and Stories. I'm your host, John Wondolowski, and I'm here with my co-host and friend, Greg Powell. Greg? Hey everybody. And when we put together this podcast, we wanted to put out a helping hand and help that next generation and help answer the question of what does it mean to be a leader? Today we want to talk about a subject that I think supports that concept. So see if this sounds familiar. It's been a hard day. You've had a lot of issues at work. There's issues at home. With one of the kids, they had a checkup, and you have to address something as soon as possible for their health. And it's time for bed. You're gonna just check in your email just before you retire for bed. And there it is. You just received an update about damage to the roofing system at work, and water's pouring in in a hallway outside the production floor. Your staff's on it, but they just wanted you to know what was going on. And you had to open up that email just before you went to bed. What are you gonna come into in the morning? What's gonna grab you the first thing, the first minute? Nothing technically has happened that is terrible, but it's just that low constant pressure. You can feel it tightening up in your shoulders. And you're gonna try now to go to bed, and now you can't sleep. I think a lot of people are living in this world right now. So you're still functioning, you're still able to answer questions, you're still getting things done, but underneath it all, you feel like you're being dragged down throughout the week. So today we're going to talk about burnout. Not your usual just I can handle it, I can get it through, I can find a way through the path. It's something deeper, something more underneath it that really needs to be addressed. That feeling like you've lost the grip of your own day. Greg, when you hear that, what comes to mind first?

SPEAKER_01 2:31

So, John, honestly, what comes to my mind is that

Above The Line Vs Defeated

SPEAKER_01 2:35

moment where people stop saying, I'm busy, and then they start sounding defeated. And that's the shift. Dr. Dirst talks about this in his Being the Cause book through the idea of the line. And I know that can sound kind of abstract, but really it's pretty simple. Above the line, you feel like you still have some say in how you respond. But below the line, it feels like everything is pushing you around. Your calendar is pushing you around, other people's urgency is pushing you around, your own anxiety is pushing you around. And when somebody lives there long enough, they don't feel just tired. They start sounding flat. They stop brainstorming, they don't laugh as much, they stop saying, here's what I'm thinking, and then they start saying, I guess I'll deal with it. That's the part that gets me. Because once someone starts living like that, work stops feeling hard and actually starts feeling hopeless.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yeah. And that really lands because I think most of us have seen that in ourselves or in someone that we work with. It's the person who used to have the ideas, now just saying, whatever you want. It's the person who used to care about getting things right and now just wants to get through it. That's such an important difference because a lot of conversations about burnout stay on the surface. It's about the time management or stress relief or whether somebody needs a long weekend. You hear all those kind of answers. And sure, sometimes people need rest, but this is different. This is the kind of burnout where persons start to lose their sense of traction. They're moving, but they don't know where they're getting and where that goal is. There is a very specific kind of exhaustion.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yes. And that's why I actually find this framework very hopeful. Because it doesn't say just be tougher or power through it. It says, let's help you get your hands back on that steering wheel. That's really what moving into the cause position means. It's not pretending the workload is fine, it's not pretending the system is fair. It's actually saying, okay, given the situation, where's my next real choice? And sometimes that choice is tiny. It's saying no to one thing, it's asking one honest question in a meeting. It's turning off those notifications for about an hour or so, so your brain can come back online. Those small moves matter because they interrupt the feeling of being swept downstream. Once a person feels even a little bit of ground under their feet, their energy starts to change. Not magically, definitely not overnight, but enough to remind them all right, I'm still here, I still have some say. That's a powerful moment. Okay,

Starting The Burnout Conversation

SPEAKER_01 5:45

so let's bring this into a real conversation because this is where leaders can either really help or really miss the moment. So let's picture a manager sitting down with someone who is technically still doing their job, but the spark is gone. Every answer sounds tired. Every update has a little bit of an edge to it. You ask how they're doing, and they say, fine. But in that tone, where fine means absolutely not fine. I think a lot of managers know that moment and immediately panic just a little bit because they don't want to be invasive. They don't want to say the wrong thing. They don't want to accidentally make it worse. So, what does a good opening sound like?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Ah, okay. So a good opening line usually sounds simpler than people expect. It's less about having the perfect words, and it's more about the sound and if it sounds real. Something like, hey, I've noticed things seem heavier lately. And I just wanted to check in. That's it. It's just that simple. Or you're not arriving with a speech, you're not trying to do a diagnosis, you're just trying to open that door for a conversation. And I think that matters because when someone is basically feeling the effects of being burnt out, they usually can't tell manager what they're feeling, and they don't want a manager to talk from a script. What helps is when the conversation feels grounded and human. And once they start talking, you have an opportunity. It's not about being curious. It's what you want to do and try to help them, encourage them to talk about their feelings. What feels the hardest that you have to deal with right now? What's been worrying on you the most? Notice these are questions, these aren't statements. It's trying to engage someone in the conversation. What part of the week feels like it's too much? These questions invite real answers. And sometimes what comes out of it is surprisingly specific. It's not always I hate my job. It's I can never finish one thing before three more things get in the way. Or I don't mind working hard, but I never know what exactly matters, what's useful. Now, you're actually getting somewhere if you're getting those kind of responses.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

And that feels like the difference between checking a box and actually showing up. I still think this is where managers get stuck because they're trying to hold two truths at one. The first truth is yes, people need to own their choices. But the other truth is sometimes the workplace really is part of the problem. So if I'm a manager, how do I avoid giving off the horrible vibe of have you tried simply having a better attitude? Because nobody wants to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

No, exactly. And nobody wants to be handed a motivational poster when they're drowning. I mean,

When The System Is The Issue

SPEAKER_00 9:00

that's why they have to be grounded in reality. And I wanted to bring up something that I thought was really interesting about a social psychologist in her early work in the 1980s called MBI, which is burnout inventory. And it's her name is Masluck. And she and Susan E. Jackson developed MBI, which is a gold standard of measuring a job burnout kind of environment. And I think that's very important because measurement is the heart of MBR. Having some idea of what's happening, it helps. So she points out that burnout often grows where there is a bad fit between the person and the systems that are around them. Too much workload, too little control, unclear expectations, weak support. It's all real. So the goal is not to pretend that the environment doesn't matter. The goal is to say, let's separate what is hard from what is hopeless. Maybe part of this needs to change, and we can do that at the team level. Maybe priorities need to be clearer. Maybe deadlines need to be negotiated. You see, the word maybe is being instituted to help that exchange between the employee and the leader. Maybe somebody needs to be a real backup for that employee. But even inside that, the person still needs to be in a place to stand, to feel safe, to give them the opportunity to grow. They still need the one thing they can say is to ask for or develop a change and then not feel that there's going to be repercussions. That makes the conversation respectful. You're not telling them what to do. It isn't fake positivity. You're helping them finding a footing.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Okay, so let's say that conversation goes well. Someone says, yes, this is what's wearing me down. This is where I feel

Make The Next Step 10% Better

SPEAKER_01 11:10

trapped. But what happens next? Because I've definitely been in conversations where the inside is great. Everybody nods their heads up and down, everybody feels seen, and then somehow nothing changes by Tuesday.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of trying to get through the conversation, but not really taking action. Because being understood feels good, but it's not the same as actually change. And the next step is to get specific, almost boringly specific. And this is one move, one boundary, one request, one way of handling that recurring stress point. That's where momentum starts. And if you leave the conversation with nothing more but a shared understanding that things are hard, you've created relief, but there is no direction.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

So I like questions like what's one thing that would make next week feel 10% better? Now that's a great question because it's small enough to answer honestly. And the answer might be surprisingly ordinary. Maybe it's I need to stop answering messages after dinner. Or maybe it's I need to ask what actually matters most before I say yes to three more things. Or maybe it's I need one morning with no meetings so I can catch up without feeling hunted. None of that is glamorous, but honestly, most real change isn't glamorous. It's practical, it is repeatable, and that's why it works.

Building After Hours Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Let's use a nighttime slack example because I think so many people just feel seen. If someone says, I need to stop checking messages at night because my brain never powers down, what should a good manager do right there in the moment? Because I think the instinct is either to say, sure, no problem, and leave it vague, or to panic and think, but what if I miss something? What if something comes up?

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah. And you know, everybody has those problems, and you have to understand a good manager helps turn that idea into a real plan. So instead of just saying, yes, do that, they help answer the practical questions. What needs to happen before the end of the workday so that that boundary or that that goal is actually possible? What does the team need to know? What counts in terms of what is really urgent or what just feels urgent in the moment? Questions like who's going to cover that? Especially if it's after hours. Having some kind of communication as far as the next step and helping them build that next step is how you help minimize the burnout. It's that stuff that makes the boundaries hold. Otherwise, it becomes no more than a good intention that gets crushed by habit. And honestly, this is where leadership can be incredibly calming. Because when a manager says, let's set this up so that we don't have to keep on making that decision every night from scratch. What are we doing to improve the boundary? What they're really trying to do is reduce that friction. And by helping protect their actual energy, they're helping that person stop living from the constant almost state of exhaustion. And the goal is that you're trying to help that person, to help them find a way that doesn't eat

Leave People More Ground

SPEAKER_00 15:00

into their nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

All right. So as we start to land this plane, I want to ask the question people are probably carrying into their next team meeting. If somebody listening finishes this episode and thinks, okay, this is useful, but what do I actually do with it tomorrow? What would you want them to remember, John?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

I'd like them to remember this. Leave people with a little bit more ground under their feet than what they had before they had talked to you. That's it. If they feel that that one-on-one ends with someone feeling that they have a clear understanding of what needs to be done, they feel steadier that you're trying to support them, and that they're able to make a decision on their own and take that move to whatever it is for resolution. It's a meaningful conversation, is what I'm really trying to suggest. And if it ends with that feeling of being judged or smaller or even scrambled, then something's going to be off track. So it's really useful. The question I think that leaders should ask is did I fix this? Did I help that person find an honest next step? And is that step something in terms of clarity? Might it be something that we can negotiate in terms of deadlines, asking the things that they're trying to tell you. If you're listening, you can hear this. And it might be admitting that they can't keep working this way. It needs to be a different approach. It might be a different setting, a different boundary. But whatever it is, the point is they leave with that feeling of something that is real, that they can do something that would stop the spiral that they've been dealing with. But most of all, they have that feeling that they have support.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

That's such a good line. Leave people with more ground under their feet, because that feels true even beyond work. People don't always need a perfect answer. Sometimes they just need enough steadiness to take the next step without feeling like they're drowning. And if leaders could bring more of that into the way they've managed people, I think a lot of teams would feel very, very different.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Exactly. And we can't remove every pressure point from modern work. And we can't make everything in the work week easy. It just doesn't work that way. But we can help people that are actually dealing with issues like burnout to remember that they have choices and things do feel like a mess, but you can help them through that process. And sometimes it's a small return to choices that change everything. That changes how a person walks in on Monday and how they go home to their family. It changes how they talk to their team that's around them. It changes whether they can shut down mentally or whether they stay engaged. That's why the issue of burnout really matters. Burnout is not only about being overworked. A lot of the time, it's about the feeling that your life is no longer yours, that you're just a victim. And if we can help people to even get a little bit of that feeling back, that they're in control, that they have the ability to handle some of the small things, that's that step in order to try to help them feel better and handle the stress. And that's real

Resources And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_00 18:30

leadership. So if you like what you've heard, I've written a book called Building Your Leadership Toolbox, and we talk about tools like this. And it's available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other sites. The podcast is what you've been listening to. Thank you so much. It's also available on Apple, Google, and Spotify. A lot of what we talk about is from Dr. Durst and his MBR program. If you'd like to know more about Dr. Durst, you can find out on SuccessGrowthAcademy.com. And if you'd like to contact us, please send me a line. It's Wando75 periodjw at gmail.com. And the music has been brought to you by my grandson. So we want to hear from you. Drop me a line. Tell me what's going on, what you like, and what you would like to hear about. It has always helped us to create content. Thanks, Greg. This was fun. Thanks, John. As always.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Next time.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah.