Exploring the Intricacies of Shame and What it Means to be Embodied with Dr. Scott Lyons

In today's episode, I speak with holistic psychologist, educator and author, Dr. Scott Lyons. Scott is a world-class body-based trauma expert, helping people break free from cycles of pain, limiting beliefs, and trauma. 

In this conversation, we explore cyclical thoughts, shame and its effects, positive and toxic shame, self-actualization, social isolation and loneliness, and what it means to have an internal experience.

We also discuss detecting repressed shame and manipulation, resonance and emotional contagion, supporting each other in the journey toward self-actualization, and creating a world that supports everyone's access to love and joy.

Connect with Dr. Scott Lyons:

• Website
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• Facebook
• TikTok
• Buy Dr. Scott' book - Addicted to Drama

Ways to Work with Me

• Join the membership here for weekly live discussions
• Apply to join a future The Way of Mastery small group cohort
• 1:1 with me

Transcript

[00:00:00] Flynn Skidmore: Hello and welcome to the Flynn Skidmore podcast. My goal is to help you become exactly who you want to be. We are here to help you take your biggest, boldest, most beautiful vision for life and turn that vision into reality. Welcome back today. We have Dr. Scott Lyons. Dr. Scott is a holistic psychologist, a mind body medicine practitioner, and an embodiment educator.

[00:00:36] Flynn Skidmore: He is incredibly knowledgeable. And you're going to come away from this episode, super informed. We speak about cyclical thoughts. We speak about toxic shame. We speak about using shame positively. We speak about isolation and we speak about how to show up for ourselves and others in the way that is most likely to transform the world.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:03] Flynn Skidmore: So I was, I was on someone's podcast recently and they asked me to explain what it means to be a holistic therapist. And I keep thinking about my answer because it was not a good answer. It was not clear. It was not like, like in the mornings when I'm peeing, I'm like recalling the answer and how bad it was.

[00:01:27] Flynn Skidmore: And I'm curious to hear, not to put you on the spot, but I'm curious to hear how you describe it. What is it being, what does it mean to be a holistic psychologist? 

[00:01:37] Dr. Scott Lyons: First of all, I love that some aspect of guilt or shame or embarrassment emerges as your pain. Yes. I would love to deconstruct that with you as to why it comes as you, as you release things from your body, why things are cycling in your body.

[00:01:52] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yes. Mostly narrative, story, you know, feelings, etc. Um, that's [00:02:00] more interesting to me than the definition of holistic psychologist. We 

[00:02:02] Flynn Skidmore: can go into that if you want to. 

[00:02:05] Dr. Scott Lyons: I mean, let's, I, if I was your audience, I would want to know what's going on while you're peeing, my friend. 

[00:02:11] Flynn Skidmore: Okay, let's, let's do a short session and unpack why I'm ruminating on the things that I wish that I could redo in the morning.

[00:02:20] Flynn Skidmore: From a 

[00:02:20] Dr. Scott Lyons: holistic therapy perspective. Yes. I'm gonna answer it in vivo. 

[00:02:24] Flynn Skidmore: That is perfect. We're going to use this as a case study for you to answer 

[00:02:28] Dr. Scott Lyons: the question. That's that, that's some deep shit. So my friend, no, seriously, is that, is that a familiar thing for you to like, sort of have cyclical thoughts while you're like either in the morning or urinating?

[00:02:46] Flynn Skidmore: Not necessarily. Well, actually, yeah, it is, it is very normal for me to have cyclical thoughts. Okay, to identify something that I would have liked to have [00:03:00] done better. Uh, and run that thing through my mind. And also, I have cyclical thoughts when it comes to content or when it comes to having a concept that I feel in my soul that I want to be able to communicate my I run it over and over and over and over again, almost like massaging it out until I No, that I can communicate this thing in a way that will be meaningful and digestible.

[00:03:29] Flynn Skidmore: So I think it's not just with morning pee, guilt, shame, cycling thoughts. I think it's a general thing about me with thoughts. They are cyclical. 

[00:03:41] Dr. Scott Lyons: Mm hmm. They're cyclical and there's a lot of rehearsing that happens. Yes. 

[00:03:45] Flynn Skidmore: A lot of rehearsing before a thing and after a thing. 

[00:03:53] Dr. Scott Lyons: Okay. Is that, and so that sounds like, is that something more recent?

[00:03:56] Dr. Scott Lyons: Is that something historic for you? This, the sense of rehearsing? 

[00:03:59] Flynn Skidmore: [00:04:00] It's, it's historic. That's something that I have done my whole life. It used to be very much fueled by. Shame. The cyclical nature of the thoughts was me just continuing to play a musical note of shame internally, finding things to hate about myself, collecting evidence to fuel my self hatred.

[00:04:23] Flynn Skidmore: I have learned. How to, um, it's, it's now more of a practice of joy because I feel very empowered to take mistakes and to take material, uh, that where maybe I veered away from what I wanted to do or who I wanted to be and use that to, um, produce something better next time. So it's, it is more enjoyable for me now.

[00:04:47] Flynn Skidmore: I'd say it's a practice of curiosity and like focus. Whereas for most of my life, it was a practice of shame.

[00:04:59] Dr. Scott Lyons: Sometimes we do [00:05:00] this funny thing where we reframe shame. Where it's like, it still has the physiological effect of freezing me in time and space in order to be in a contemplative unpacking. You know, and, and what shame does, because shame in itself is, is not necessarily bad. It's, there's a difference between what we call healthy shame and toxic shame.

[00:05:24] Dr. Scott Lyons: So a child runs into the street and I say, no, we don't run into the street. And there's a frop, a pause. There's a freeze response. There's an immobilization in their system. And there, that pause that, that comes about from that element of shame says, okay. I'm, I, what is going on that either puts me in danger, whether it's my ego state in danger, my vulnerability is in danger, my physical well being is in danger.

[00:05:55] Dr. Scott Lyons: I, this is the moment, the freeze of assessment [00:06:00] and which is really 

[00:06:01] Flynn Skidmore: interesting assessment. That's a really free assessment. Yes. So the shame is intended to create a freeze response. The healthy love, safety and belonging version of that is to create, um, I've already forgotten that the beautiful language you just freeze of assessment assessment.

[00:06:20] Flynn Skidmore: It's to create a assessment and reflection to identify the dangers here and to redirect behavior to avoid danger. Yeah, 

[00:06:30] Dr. Scott Lyons: yeah, it's assessment to conserve energy. It's an assessment towards safety. It's assessment of where dangers have been and are. That can be avoided in the future. Yes. And in a healthy version, then the, you know, the parent who says, no, we don't run into the street, comes back and says, I love you, babe.

[00:06:50] Dr. Scott Lyons: Right. Like when you run into the street, it scares me. Right. And I, I, and I want your, I want safety for you. I want you to be safe. [00:07:00] And, and so I, I yelled to have that pause of assessment. Basically, I wouldn't use that language with the kid, but that pause. To then say, Hey, how can we redirect our behavior in the future?

[00:07:14] Dr. Scott Lyons: How can we create the most safe, uh, choices for your preservation? 

[00:07:20] Flynn Skidmore: And what I understand about the nervous system is that when someone goes into a state of freeze and then are immediately met with warmth and love, that person learns that sometimes a freeze response is a part of life. It's a part of life that's within a larger context of love, safety and belonging, like you'll get hurt, you'll have these experiences, but it doesn't take away your connection with sources of love.

[00:07:49] Flynn Skidmore: And I imagine the toxic versions of shame are communicating to people that they've lost access to warmth and love. 

[00:07:57] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah, we're not meant to be in a [00:08:00] chronic freeze of assessment. We're not meant to be in that state of being. And, um, Just in the same way, we're not meant to be in a chronic state of inflammation.

[00:08:12] Dr. Scott Lyons: You know, when inflammation comes in, it protects an injury, just like it's doing in this instance, a little rupture. And over time, that inflammation goes from being a protective bubble Or protective mechanism into creating an ecosystem of toxicity in the body. And so toxic shame is exactly that. It's the, it never releases from the freeze.

[00:08:38] Dr. Scott Lyons: Um, in fact, it, it becomes absorbed in a way of going this, this is actually about me. I'm the issue as opposed to the behavior can be assessed. Which is what is the case in positive shame. So 

[00:08:55] Flynn Skidmore: in the toxic shame, the person is identifying as [00:09:00] the mistake. This is me. I do this thing that's incorrect and wrong.

[00:09:05] Flynn Skidmore: This being this way means that I have less access to belonging, less access to love, less access. access to safety. So my identity is forming in such a way that I have less, it's difficult for me to access these things that are so fundamental. Yeah. 

[00:09:24] Dr. Scott Lyons: And we, we unfortunately missed the opportunity for assessment and learning.

[00:09:29] Dr. Scott Lyons: So we repeat patterns and then again, because we're in the repetition of them or the, the, we could say the cyclical aspect of it, the pattern of it, then it reinforces the belief system that we absorbed as part of it. 

[00:09:44] Flynn Skidmore: That's really interesting. So in that version of shame, we're not able to, the, it sounds like.

[00:09:53] Flynn Skidmore: In a, in a tribal system, shame evolved to help [00:10:00] probably mostly children learn how to fit in and cooperate with the values of the tribe. And in that tribe of probably 150 people, uh, that child was learning that when you get shamed and you get hit with a quick, no. You're part of this thing and it allows you to reflect on the things that you did so that you can learn how you can, how you can contribute even better to the tribe the next time, whereas in the version of shame that you're talking about the exclusionary version of shame, we sort of lose that capacity to reflect on the behaviors.

[00:10:38] Flynn Skidmore: We just stay stuck in the freeze. Yeah, and we 

[00:10:41] Dr. Scott Lyons: lose relationship and we lose to ourselves to ourselves and to others. Yes And so it also perpetuates isolation abandonment, etc. 

[00:10:51] Flynn Skidmore: Yes. Yes. And and what's your take on that? What why why does that? Why is that the thing that most often [00:11:00] happens when there's chronic shame?

[00:11:02] Flynn Skidmore: We mm-hmm. , we most often see a person who pursues isolation. What, what is that about? 

[00:11:09] Dr. Scott Lyons: Mm-hmm. . Well, it's a replication, like when you say they're pursuing isolation, you're, I'm assuming you're referring to like, we see it in their behaviors. We see it in their social patterns. Yes. But what it is, is replicating the things that we often can't see, which is a.

[00:11:26] Dr. Scott Lyons: Isolation that is already existing within them a sense of being cut off from oneself. 

[00:11:31] Flynn Skidmore: Yes. Yes 

[00:11:33] Dr. Scott Lyons: We're just 

[00:11:34] Flynn Skidmore: seeing that mirrored. Yes. That's a really beautiful way of describing it Internally, they are cut off from themselves. There's like a frozen relationship There's no way that they can like sink their teeth into this Experience of who they are right now with the chronic build up of shame so then when we see that person isolating when we, when we can see the behaviors from the external isolating, [00:12:00] they are matching their experience that they're having internally.

[00:12:07] Dr. Scott Lyons: So, so let's pause for a moment and go back to you because like, as you're talking about shame or possibly recycling your own thoughts in, in this pattern, is it, there's a way in which we can, again, reframe shame. To be in its more positive aspect or simply we're overriding a deeper pattern of, of like, uh, of staying in toxic shame and trying to put a positive, well, we might say a positive toxic perspective on top of it, of like, I'm feeling both the, the, the.

[00:12:47] Dr. Scott Lyons: Sort of insult to myself and on top of that I'm saying and I learned something and there's like a Disconnection between the two because just because we are looking from a positive perspective Doesn't mean we [00:13:00] aren't also Degrading ourselves at the same time on 

[00:13:03] Flynn Skidmore: a more subtle level, which is why I think toxic positivity is As in the way you're describing, as toxic as toxic shame because the toxic positivity requires the repression of shame.

[00:13:18] Flynn Skidmore: So the shame is still there. It's just being repressed to try to access this thing that the person thinks that they're supposed to be in. 

[00:13:26] Dr. Scott Lyons: Nailed it. Exactly. And, and it's dangerous. It's an overriding. for this and and you feel it with someone. Um, you feel it when they're like talking about the goodness of the world and you're like something feels askew underneath.

[00:13:41] Dr. Scott Lyons: It doesn't feel grounded and anchored in an embodied experience. It feels lifted in a way. From a truth that they are hiding the truth that is being repressed. 

[00:13:51] Flynn Skidmore: Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's very cool to me that we can detect those kinds of things. Like [00:14:00] when someone is speaking about something, they're, they're trying to signal to others that they're having a particular internal experience.

[00:14:07] Flynn Skidmore: But we can sense that the internal experience that they're trying to signal is not actually what their body is experiencing in that moment. And there's. They're creating, um, I mean, I guess what it is, is we're really good at detecting manipulation, like how we know, Oh, go ahead. 

[00:14:27] Dr. Scott Lyons: I think manipulation, I would call it the performing from an avatar itself.

[00:14:32] Dr. Scott Lyons: Oh, I love that. And it is like, this is the version of me I want you to see. But as humans, because we are so evolutionarily designed to feel each other. To actually, you know, stress is contagious. Emotions are contagious. We have specific neurons designed to be in resonance with what someone else is feeling in order to preserve our own energy [00:15:00] and safety.

[00:15:01] Dr. Scott Lyons: And, and so we don't always. You know, as, as, as we sit in desks and we go to offices and we store a computer, our ability to read those cues become more null or, um, less available. But that doesn't mean we're not receiving that information. And so like, if you walk into a room, like right now, if you said to me, Oh my gosh, I'm thinking about how, um, I didn't say that definition of a holistic.

[00:15:30] Dr. Scott Lyons: Therapist very well, but how amazing it is that I have now have this time to learn and you can hear how my voice has lifted up away from my experience. I'm exaggerating, of course, for dramatic effect. And I think it's funny. And, and, um, but you can hear how there's something distorted or disconnected in my actual experience.

[00:15:52] Dr. Scott Lyons: I'm, I'm lifted away from myself in that example. Yes. And, and so. We might register it as like, [00:16:00] huh, something just feels amiss or askew, or like I can't quite put my finger on it. Like I, I hear them saying something good, but I also feel confused in this moment because we're receiving two very different inputs of data at the same time.

[00:16:16] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yes. One from an avatar itself. Or like one that's overridden, that's not based in the actual truth of experience. And then we're registering the subtle cues of truth at the same time, but don't always know how to read that. 

[00:16:32] Flynn Skidmore: Right, and so what you're saying is, we have designed an environment for ourselves where we get less time to practice Um, picking, consciously picking up on the signs and the communications that we are getting from other people's bodies.

[00:16:49] Flynn Skidmore: Like you said, we kind of lose the skill of getting out the computer, but we're still picking up on it. Just maybe not consciously. 

[00:16:58] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. And if you, and if someone [00:17:00] out there is like, no, I don't believe that. Well, first of all, read a book. I'm just kidding. I think, no, I mean, playful. If you don't believe me, look at a baby.

[00:17:11] Dr. Scott Lyons: They do not understand English. But if you come into a room and you are fuming, look what happens to a baby's posture. What happens to their breath? Do they start crying? What seems like random, but they're actually registering Your body cues, your breath. They are des. We are designed for this our, it is our primal language.

[00:17:35] Dr. Scott Lyons: It is our first language of understanding. And so it's, it's just that we learn this second language, like German or English or Spanish, and it rides, it sits on top of it, uh, and, and we might lose some of our, um, abilities that we were born with to register these cues, but they're not gone. The [00:18:00] receptors don't disappear, just our ability to read that data.

[00:18:04] Flynn Skidmore: You know, one, one of the places where I, where I find that a lot of people experience stuckness and frustration and confusion is because their awareness is on their words, as if the words or the language was the truth of their experience, rather than what is whatever is happening in their body, as maybe a truer word.

[00:18:34] Flynn Skidmore: something that's closer to the truth of what's actually happening. So it's like awareness and attention on words, hoping that the language can be the thing that tells me what to do or tells me how I'm doing. And, and the more a person seems to focus on the language, the less they focus on what's actually happening in their body.

[00:18:54] Flynn Skidmore: And I noticed that when people do that, the more. frustrated with and confused about life they [00:19:00] seem to be. 

[00:19:02] Dr. Scott Lyons: Words are empty vessels waiting to be filled by your truth of experience. And the more disconnected, the more empty those vessels are, the more dissonant someone is who is with you. experiences, like, like you want to be validated, get aligned with your words and your truth.

[00:19:29] Dr. Scott Lyons: Because even if I feedback or a mirror back what you're saying, there's a way in which it is a miss with the truth of your body and you will never feel the incredible sensation, the incredible experience of what it is to be validated. 

[00:19:45] Flynn Skidmore: Okay, so you're seeking validation. However, if your attention is on the validation and you're not cultivating an awareness of whatever you're of your internal experiences.

[00:19:58] Flynn Skidmore: You'll never even, [00:20:00] you'll never get to experience how good the validation feels because you won't be aware of what's actually happening if you're not aware of what's happening in your body. 

[00:20:09] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah, validation, like true validation is a replication of our early primal developmental needs of being seen and witnessed and safety.

[00:20:21] Dr. Scott Lyons: It is a verification that I am present with you. And that presence gives a sense of confidence, a capacity to move and be in the world. And so, you know, like we can get go in circles around like, oh, people should just Don't need to rely on external validation except that It's not the words that matter in the validation.

[00:20:45] Dr. Scott Lyons: It's the, the somatic, it's the embodied sense of being witnessed and whole and belonging and connected and loved through the sense of presence with another. 

[00:20:57] Flynn Skidmore: Yes. And so if a [00:21:00] person is fixated on the words of, if a person is fixated on the, on the words of validation, then that person. Is probably struggling to show up for another person off, able to offer the validation and the presence that they are hoping to receive.

[00:21:23] Dr. Scott Lyons: Agreed. So. Yes. 

[00:21:28] Flynn Skidmore: What do you. And I know that like, you know, before we started recording we were speaking about how the truth of this work is probably much more nuanced than pop psychology and social media therapy would like it to be. Um, and so you, this is, I, I in no way expect you to give us like a, a three step process, but generally what are the trends?

[00:21:54] Flynn Skidmore: How do you, how do you see people coming, coming or going from that space of awareness on [00:22:00] words to being in their body, being able to be with the truth of their experience? 

[00:22:08] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah, we see it all the time and we see it in the way. Uh, language is overgeneralized, specific cues of experience are overgeneralized, like, oh, that traumatized me, that you just gaslit me, uh, things like that.

[00:22:25] Dr. Scott Lyons: It's not to say those aren't happening in the world, but not to the frequency we are announcing. They are. It's like, oh, uh, I, like you just disagreed with me or I stubbed my toe. That was trauma. Babes, that's not trauma. It's not like, it couldn't be trauma, but if it's not overwhelming your system, you're not traumatized, you're hurt.

[00:22:52] Dr. Scott Lyons: And the preciousness of language is so important in this moment, because if I'm announcing to myself and [00:23:00] other people that this is trauma, then I start to believe that it is. I start to believe that I am overwhelmed beyond my capacity. And others do too. When in fact it's like, ooh, that hurt. Right.

[00:23:15] Dr. Scott Lyons: There's a sting here. 

[00:23:17] Flynn Skidmore: And so if so, if, if something happens, if some sort of stimulus happens, and I feel something and that something might be hurt, but rather than paying attention to what that feeling actually is, and how intense it might be, I immediately go to this script of your You've traumatized me or I'm traumatized or you're gaslighting me then I can start to identify I'll start to believe that i'm traumatized and i'm being gaslit and start to identify as those things And as I start to identify as those things, then I actually will create the overwhelm that comes along with trauma [00:24:00] and being gaslit.

[00:24:02] Flynn Skidmore: Or I'm so 

[00:24:02] Dr. Scott Lyons: stuck in the narrative, the story of the label I'm presenting that I actually forget about the true experience I'm having and the ability to process and metabolize it. I'm, I'm taking myself away from the experience by projecting a label. Of the experience before I'm even in touch with the experience itself.

[00:24:23] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yes. Dangerous. Yes. Dangerous. Yes. And it's like, and we just like, there's a way in which we can empower people to say, Ooh, someone is like for gaslighting. Someone is really challenging my own perception of reality. But guess what? We are all doing that all the time. Your reality is not my reality. It will net, there might be some overlap on the Venn diagram of realities.

[00:24:51] Dr. Scott Lyons: But we do not have the same reality. We will not have the same experience. You're watching a movie. I'm watching the same movie. [00:25:00] We're taking in about 20 percent of the actual movie and then filling the 80 percent in of our interpretation of the movie with our past and our perceived future. We are not watching the same, we are watching the same movie, but we are not having the same experience of that movie.

[00:25:18] Dr. Scott Lyons: And, and so if you say like, wow, that was really sad. And I was like, I didn't find that sad. I'm not gaslighting you. I'm having a moment of going, whoa, we're having different realities. How do we settle this? How do we come into this friction that is human nature because we do not share the same reality.

[00:25:40] Dr. Scott Lyons: That. And the moment I say. Flynn, you're fucking gaslighting me. I, I break the possibility of us ever having a mutuality between our realities. I break, and then I start going into the narrative of what it is to be gaslit, and perhaps the real times [00:26:00] I have been gaslit, and that floods this moment, and I am no longer able to be in relationship to the person, or my actual truth of going, ooh, that doesn't feel good that someone didn't have the same experience as me, I feel alone.

[00:26:15] Dr. Scott Lyons: I feel, and I don't know how to be with this aloneness of my perception, and so I'm just gonna go, you gaslit me. 

[00:26:24] Flynn Skidmore: One of the things that seems to be the case is that when we set ourselves up to be eager to offer to others, the things that we would like to receive and experience ourselves. The more we get that thing that we'd like to receive.

[00:26:40] Flynn Skidmore: And in that example of the, Oh, that, that was a really sad movie. And you're like, no, that was really fun and entertaining. And then I'm like, what the fuck, Scott? Like you're gaslighting me. What I'm, what I, what to me, what it sounds like I want in that instance is for you to. Uh, validate my [00:27:00] internal experience and apply curiosity to my experience.

[00:27:03] Flynn Skidmore: I want you to, to show that you're eager to learn about what this experience was for me. And what about my own experience of life created this interpretation that this movie was sad for me. I want to know that my experience matters to you. However, If once I find out that you didn't have the same experience as me and I label you as gaslighting me, then I'm not applying curiosity to you.

[00:27:28] Flynn Skidmore: I'm not eager to understand what your internal experiences of the movie. And so if I'm not holding myself responsible to offering you what I want to get from you, then I'm going to be, I mean, I just, it's just create like chaos is really what the word is. 

[00:27:45] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah, it creates chaos. And, um, it, it, if you're not in touch with your needs in that way, which a lot of us aren't, because where are we supported in communicating our needs so clearly all the time?

[00:27:58] Dr. Scott Lyons: Or the training to [00:28:00] do that, so to speak. Um, but if we start to go, you gaslit me. What I'm actually doing, and I'm in the narrative, and I'm being fueled and revved up by simply the label of gaslighting and all the things I've read on Instagram and all the things that I've been told to do when someone gaslights me, I am moving further and further Away from my primal needs.

[00:28:22] Dr. Scott Lyons: And what I'm doing in that moment is actually self abandoning. And so I'm replicating the very thing I felt in that moment of friction towards myself. And 

[00:28:36] Flynn Skidmore: say more, please, about the self abandonment there. What is self abandonment? And in that instance, and in that instance, how is the person self 

[00:28:46] Dr. Scott Lyons: abandoning?

[00:28:49] Dr. Scott Lyons: It's like, I, you know, in codependency, which is just another label too, but it's a word that represents self abandonment at its core of going, Oh, you have [00:29:00] needs. I'm going to give up mine just to provide and attend to yours. I, there's a way I am leaving and vacating the presence of my body or my relationship to my needs or my feelings.

[00:29:13] Dr. Scott Lyons: For something or someone else 

[00:29:16] Flynn Skidmore: with the hope that that gets my needs met, right? Like, isn't that usually what it's about? So it's like, I'm going to abandon my needs. And deprioritize my needs to meet this other person's needs. And maybe I can do that because I've been conditioned to believe that that lets me know I'm a good person.

[00:29:36] Flynn Skidmore: I'm a good whatever. And so I, I, the avatar that I'm presenting to the world is that it's about this other person's needs. But the truth is, is that I'm just hoping that that gets my needs met. But I'm, I'm, but I'm over complicating the system because I'm hoping to get my needs met by bypassing and abandoning my needs.

[00:29:56] Dr. Scott Lyons: And here's the tricky part. Let's say that person does [00:30:00] start to attend to my needs. I'm not home to receive it, because I just vacated myself. I abandoned myself to try to get them here. What 

[00:30:11] Flynn Skidmore: do you find happens there? Like, like, like in those instances where a person is abandoning themselves and their needs to meet another person's needs.

[00:30:22] Flynn Skidmore: And then that other person starts to meet the self abandoner, the self abandoning person's needs. Like what happens in those 

[00:30:30] Dr. Scott Lyons: instances? It's just, it's, it's like, um, it's like throwing water at a wall instead of a sponge. If there's just no absorption, there's no receiving and oftentimes they'll be like, why can't you meet my needs?

[00:30:46] Dr. Scott Lyons: And that other person was like, but now I am. And if it's not being received, I'm going to stop doing it. And then we're in this cyclical pattern of relationship where it's like, um, I want my needs [00:31:00] met. I'm put, I, I abandoned myself so that my needs could be seen. And then you, and then you say, you're seeing them.

[00:31:08] Dr. Scott Lyons: Are you saying you're, you're attending to my needs, but I can't feel that. I don't receive that. I don't see it. So now you're even gaslighting me. 

[00:31:16] Flynn Skidmore: Notice, I notice a really interesting pattern with my clients who are in heterosexual, heterosexual relationships. So. We, we, we all kind of, I say we all, because I play into it too.

[00:31:31] Flynn Skidmore: Sometimes like play into this narrative that men are operating generally men in particular, straight men are operating with a whole lot less emotional intelligence than other people are. And, but I do see these patterns. In relationships where the, where the woman in the relationship will say, here's how I need my needs met.

[00:31:55] Flynn Skidmore: And the guy actually does it. And when I'm hearing [00:32:00] the information about how it's going, I'm like, damn, you're actually doing a great job. Like you're operating at a really high level in terms of offering someone something and having the intention of loving someone in the way they've asked to be loved.

[00:32:14] Flynn Skidmore: But the woman is not able to receive it. And then it gets angry at the guy about that. So he's doing exactly what she asked to do and he's not doing it like dirt to dirt kind of energy. Like he's actually showing up being present, like doing it well with his heart and it's not being received. And then he gets blamed for like not doing things correctly.

[00:32:36] Flynn Skidmore: And then, of course, he gets super frustrated and confused. I'm curious if you see that, I'm curious to hear more of your thoughts on that. 

[00:32:43] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah. I called it a validation block versus the validation reflex. So there's a, there's a reflexive response. It looks somewhat like a relaxation reflex, except there's a little bit more and I'll talk about that.

[00:32:58] Dr. Scott Lyons: When someone is able [00:33:00] to be vulnerable enough, open enough, available enough to receive the presence of another person and let it actually touch the parts of us that have often been scared or unseen or even seen, whatever it is to really absorb it in like a sponge and let it, and let it feel that sense of meeting that it's like a yielding in of the, of the, of the world and other people into our most deepest vulnerable aspects of ourself.

[00:33:34] Dr. Scott Lyons: And there's a reflexive response. Um, that's, that's physiological when that happens. It's like there's a deeper breath that comes in. There's a release in the tissue. Yeah. And the muscles and the fascia and, and there's a sense of just rightness, like it's, it's, it's, you know, this is a phenomenological thing.

[00:33:55] Dr. Scott Lyons: I mean, it's, you're able to measure it too, but it's phenomenological in the sense of like, [00:34:00] it's hard to subjectively describe it, um, from the inside, because there aren't always words to match the richness of our experiences. So in this validation reflex, what I feel. Is it just a sense of, um, connectedness?

[00:34:19] Dr. Scott Lyons: I feel more connected to myself, I feel connected by others, and it creates, it generates, then, a sense of safety. Mm hmm. Of like, I'm okay, the world's okay, or okay enough. And that's, so, when it's, that's what happens in the full absorption process of... a validation. Now, many of us have put up walls or sometimes what we call boundaries, which are just A fancier way of saying walls sometimes.

[00:34:52] Dr. Scott Lyons: Again, that's another thing about like boundaries. It's like, we've got to have boundaries. And it's like the firmness of your [00:35:00] boundaries suggest of your languaging on social media suggests you're not actually talking about boundaries. You're just replicating walls and boundaries are about. And they have to be adaptable, yeah?

[00:35:14] Dr. Scott Lyons: They have to be flexible and adaptable. If it's an absolute yes all the time, that's a wall. If it's an absolute no all the time, that's a wall. Yeah? Mm. Or an absolute yes. Sorry. Is like an a measurement. There's no membrane, right? There's no, there's no membrane. Yep. And an absolute no is a wall. Yeah. And so the ability to modulate how much Yes.

[00:35:36] Dr. Scott Lyons: And how much no is representative of a functional and adaptable boundary system. Yeah. So, um, so when we hear or see on social media, That like, you have to be able to say yes, and you have to be able to say no, and those are your boundaries. That's not nuanced enough. That's not what a holistic therapist [00:36:00] would support someone into doing.

[00:36:02] Dr. Scott Lyons: A holistic therapist would support someone into the nuances of choice. And when we're in yes or no, those are absolutes.

[00:36:14] Dr. Scott Lyons: And so, you know, like if we think of a cell membrane, yeah, it's a double lipid membrane, which means like, um, it has the ability to take things in from, you know, the surrounding environment into the inside of the cell and the ability to take things from the inside of the cell out. That is the most accurate representation of what a true.

[00:36:38] Dr. Scott Lyons: and adaptable and functional boundary looks like. The ability to modulate how much we're taking in from the environment and how much is released in the form of expression. And all of that type of flexible containment gives us a sense where we begin and where the world begins. It allows us [00:37:00] to be clear about what's happening in our needs, in our body.

[00:37:04] Dr. Scott Lyons: In our desires and our wants and our impulses and what is happening in the world around us to which we are responding to, you 

[00:37:13] Flynn Skidmore: know, it's, it's really fascinating to consider. And I'm so glad you mentioned cells because that, that was the, I was thinking about cellular membranes and I was thinking about the immune system and how cells know when something is a pathogen, because my understanding of the immune system is that.

[00:37:30] Flynn Skidmore: Uh, we, it takes about two or three times. So when, when a pathogen enters the body or anything foreign enters the body, our body seeks to collaborate and co create with that thing. And until about two or three times, if two or three times that thing lets us know, it's not seeking to contribute to the collective, that's when we fire off the systems that kill the thing and try and [00:38:00] get rid of it.

[00:38:02] Flynn Skidmore: So I'm curious if that's accurate. And then also in terms of like having a membrane, like how, if, if someone is, cause people will always ask, like, how many times should I put up with this? Like what's the, you know, like I don't like I personally like the idea of the two to three thing. Curious about your thoughts on that.

[00:38:30] Dr. Scott Lyons: Well. I think again, like, so if we're trying to also define in vivo what a holistic therapist is, it's like if someone said, if you said to me, how many times should I put up with that? It was like, I would say, well, what's happening as you're in relation to that in this moment? Oh, I disappear. Let's explore that.

[00:38:51] Dr. Scott Lyons: What does that mean? You disappear. Where do you go? Is that familiar? Do you disappear all the time? Do you disappear with me? What's [00:39:00] it like to disappear? Can you come back from disappearing? Is it your choice? Mm hmm. Oh, you're a great disappearer. What is strength that is of yours? Is there times in your life where it's not a choice and that strength becomes a Reflex that gets you into some struggles sometimes as well.

[00:39:22] Dr. Scott Lyons: So we're looking at the nuances. We're uncovering without assumption That we know or that we have the answer to it. I love 

[00:39:32] Flynn Skidmore: that. I love that. So in that particular example, the person is getting presented, like there's some form of relationship where it creates this phenomenological experience of disappearing.

[00:39:50] Flynn Skidmore: What you're looking to do is just understand, okay, when this happens, what happens? What happens in your world when this thing happens? 

[00:39:59] Dr. Scott Lyons: [00:40:00] Or how is it happening? How is it? How is this? Yeah. 

[00:40:04] Flynn Skidmore: And, and then what it sounds like you're looking to do is be like, okay, so tell me about your experience with disappearing.

[00:40:10] Flynn Skidmore: Like, when does that happen? How often does it happen? Where do you go to who disappears? What, what are you disappearing from? You just are applying curiosity to the disappearance, which is actually really interesting in the, yeah. Back to the example of shame, it's like there's this wound, there's this spike in nervous system activity, this spike in overwhelm, and you're just meeting it with love and warmth, applying curiosity to it, looking to learn about it.

[00:40:38] Flynn Skidmore: This person isn't having to defend themselves. But they get to just speak about and explore what this pattern of theirs 

[00:40:44] Dr. Scott Lyons: is. This pattern is probably a learned, uh, protective adaptation, survival adaptation that is part of some aspect of them that has not been fully realized, processed, metabolized, [00:41:00] supported.

[00:41:01] Dr. Scott Lyons: And so what I'm doing in, in fully understanding the, the entire web of experience that they had. is getting towards that part of them that has not had that space time permission support to be, to release, to be metabolized, to be understood, to be validated, to be recognized. And are there other contributing factors?

[00:41:25] Dr. Scott Lyons: Was that something we learned through, from generations of family trauma? Is that something that's cultural? And I've had to adapt to the cultural norms. So there's so many, there's so many elements that come into play that create this particular thing we're exploring. 

[00:41:46] Flynn Skidmore: I really, I really like that perspective.

[00:41:50] Flynn Skidmore: I love the perspective that It may not have been created by that person in their lifetime. It may have been consumed [00:42:00] and digested. I really like the perspective of like, I don't know where this came from right now, but I know that it's happening. And I know that when I apply, like, like the way the analogy I use is like, I'll approach that thing with an energy that would want to make a flower open up.

[00:42:20] Flynn Skidmore: Like when I approach that thing with. Flower opening energy, then I can learn about all those things. What I find really interesting is like, I, I don't think that identifying the source of where it comes from is the cure, right? Yeah. Yeah. You, it's like, it's just more information to apply curiosity to.

[00:42:46] Flynn Skidmore: It's like more it's, it's growing awareness. It's like strengthening. Your ability to be aware of more things while remaining centered. It's like being a, a vessel through which this information just wants to present [00:43:00] itself to you without operating with the hope that identifying, Oh, this came from three generations ago when this exact thing happened.

[00:43:08] Flynn Skidmore: Because I think when people are identifying the hope, if they can identify the pinpoint, the cause, then they will be relieved of the suffering. I find that trying to identify. assuming that there is a single cause and trying to identify it, I find that that's the thing that contributes to a lot of suffering.

[00:43:30] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah. So it's, there's a bit more nuance here if we go into it and which is, um, you know, I, I, if someone were to ask me, is the story important? My first answer would be. Not often. And then if they were to say, is understanding where it came from and why the most important thing, I would say not often. But there's a nuance here, which is also important, which is stories and [00:44:00] identifying where the origin of patterns can be an organizing principle that allows us to be more deeply in contact with the experience itself.

[00:44:10] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yes. But, but when we get lost in the story or we get lost in the origin and then start like going, Oh, I hate my parents for that. Then we are self abandoning. We are moving away from that opportunity to see that part of us that's been waiting to be recognized and realized. 

[00:44:30] Flynn Skidmore: Yes. Yes. I really like that you said that.

[00:44:35] Flynn Skidmore: Is it the story, is it, what did you say? It's an 

[00:44:40] Dr. Scott Lyons: organizing principle. 

[00:44:43] Flynn Skidmore: You're saying like, is it telling your story that changes the thing or transforms your, your wording was just so good there. 

[00:44:50] Dr. Scott Lyons: Oh, uh, we'll have to 

[00:44:52] Flynn Skidmore: rewind it. Something like, is it, is it recalling your story that changes the patterns or [00:45:00] transforms your experience?

[00:45:01] Flynn Skidmore: You said, not often. That's not often. Yeah, 

[00:45:04] Dr. Scott Lyons: it's, it's, it's not often that the, that sharing the actual linear story is imperative. And it's not so often where it's about identifying the exact origin story either. 

[00:45:21] Flynn Skidmore: And it's, it's, what I find is like, it's not the origin story. It's not getting the linear story down in perfect chronological order.

[00:45:33] Flynn Skidmore: It's about perceiving yourself to be in a relationship dynamic where your story matters. That seems to be more important than the specific, most accurate story. 

[00:45:47] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 

[00:45:50] Flynn Skidmore: That's really cool. I, I really like that you hold that perspective too, because that's, that's counterintuitive for a lot of people.

[00:45:57] Flynn Skidmore: A lot of people think that when they go into therapy, what [00:46:00] they're doing is retelling and recalling stories. 

[00:46:05] Dr. Scott Lyons: I would say there's a lot of therapy models that are built on that. And there's a lot of. Um, additional therapy modalities that are what are called somatic or body based or humanistic that are focused on what's happening in the here and now, where, cause here, being in the here and now is where transformation happens.

[00:46:28] Dr. Scott Lyons: We can't actually correct the past. Or the future, but both the past and the future and our repetition or replaying of them have a physiological, psychological, emotional response in the here and now. 

[00:46:45] Flynn Skidmore: How we're interpreting and relating to the past and the predictions about the future that we're making largely contribute to our experience right now, here in 

[00:46:58] Dr. Scott Lyons: the present.[00:47:00] 

[00:47:00] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yep. So let's attend to where the experience is arising, as opposed to trying to dig through the past, which is just, for lack of a better term, skeletons. Mm hmm. It's not, it's not a fleshy body of experience in the past, it's skeletons. That at one point had a fleshy experience, but the that's so we can't actually have a body change from skeletons.

[00:47:29] Dr. Scott Lyons: Mm hmm 

[00:47:30] Flynn Skidmore: In my understanding of I've been I've been listening to this guy named Michael His last name is either pronounced Levin or Levine. He's a biologist I really love his work. I think you'd really like him too. He's a very, very beautiful, creative thinker. Um, one of the things that he says is that the, the most, the, the most adaptive and dynamic biological systems don't invest that much energy into memory.[00:48:00] 

[00:48:00] Flynn Skidmore: They invest a lot of energy into preparing for surprise. So if right now in this moment. I, I am cultivating myself as a being who trusts that I can navigate adversity and surprise in the way that I want to that I can make choices in adversity and in surprise, then right now in this moment. I am, I get to be a more relaxed, calm, focused, present being the way that I am constructing movies and images and predictions about how I am, how I will navigate the future and what I think is inevitable is largely the thing that contributes to my experience right now.

[00:48:46] Flynn Skidmore: And who I am and what my life is, is a series of billions, trillions of moments of who I am and what I'm experiencing right now. Yes. 

[00:48:57] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah, I mean, our most [00:49:00] fundamental biological aspect of ourself that, that, um, that gentleman was referring to is our stress response system. Our entire ability or our stress response system, which most people think of like, Oh, stress.

[00:49:15] Dr. Scott Lyons: It's a big bad monster in the closet that gives me disease. Not at all, love. That's actually like, like, like, like, feel free to argue with me. I'm right. But, um, the, the original understanding and even definition in the books from the 1950s about stress is that it is our system of adaptation. And it is our failure to be in a functional adaptation that brings about disease.

[00:49:50] Dr. Scott Lyons: Say that again. Not, yeah, it's, so we think of stress as, stress is this thing that's coming at me and that's what, and that's, you know, makes me ill and [00:50:00] diseased. That's, that's not at all what's happening. We are designed to be in response to the stimulus of the world. Yes. Our ability to adapt and dance and be in relation to it is our functional process of being an adaptable human being in health.

[00:50:21] Dr. Scott Lyons: Our inability to be adaptable, to be in the dance of it, and I'll, I'll deconstruct what this means more specifically in a minute. Our inability to have a functional pro uh, adaptation system is what brings about disease. So stress happens in four stages, physiologically. Uh, four simple stages. It gets more complex.

[00:50:46] Dr. Scott Lyons: But the first stage is what's called activation. It's a rise of energy in our body. to be able to functionally adapt. Step two, that, and we know step one is, [00:51:00] you know, activation is like, you get a little flushed, your muscles get a little tight. All those things are great. We want those. That is your body releasing energy and preparedness to be in response.

[00:51:13] Dr. Scott Lyons: If a ball's being thrown at you, and you don't have activation, you have no energy to get out of the way of that ball or catch it. 

[00:51:22] Flynn Skidmore: And what, what generally, what, what activates activation? Is it like when, when I'm running subconsciously a prediction of whatever is going to happen in the next moment, but then what actually happens is different than what I was predicting?

[00:51:36] Flynn Skidmore: Is that like, what, what activates activation? Stimulus. 

[00:51:40] Dr. Scott Lyons: Any stimulus, any stimulus. That is why we are constantly in some level of activation. And it's a good thing. If you weren't, you would be dead, dead. Like if you did not have a stress response system, y'all dead. And so [00:52:00] it's as simple as that. So we have activation and then we have mobilization, um, which is, I'm applying that energy.

[00:52:09] Dr. Scott Lyons: into an action of adaptation. So, a ball's coming at me, I catch it, I move to the side, I duck, I run into the ball, if that's my choice. You know, I'm applying that energy into action. Then there's this, the third stage is called deactivation. So, remember how all those, that energy was being surging through our body, our muscles were engaging?

[00:52:33] Dr. Scott Lyons: little, you know, little subtle things like muscles in our jaw are engaging to dislocate our jaw, to desensitize the nerves so that if someone punched our face, we would be more adaptable. Yeah. So in that deactivation stage, the muscles in our jaw release. We, uh, the blood flows from the, um, outer parts of our body back to the central part of our body where we [00:53:00] rest and digest and we process the emotions that came as part of that response to the stimulus.

[00:53:07] Flynn Skidmore: So, so in the cross, the little kid crossing the street example, cross the street without holding mom's hand. Mom says no really quickly, really sharply. There's activation. There's. Uh, action. So looking around, probably step back, go back into mom, mom soothes and loves little kid and says, explains like why we don't do that, that, that encourages the deactivation response that little kid is then going back into rest and digest and able to process this information.

[00:53:39] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah, and go, I process the information also go, ooh, that was a little scary. I'm gonna feel my feelings. I'm gonna cry a little bit. Or mommy's voice was sharp. I'm gonna cry here because now that I'm out of the action immobilization I have the space permission time support to complete metabolize the emotions that 

[00:53:58] Flynn Skidmore: came with it.

[00:53:58] Flynn Skidmore: I really like okay. [00:54:00] Okay. So to complete and metabolize the emotion. So rest and digest is not necessarily just about, oh, that little kid has fish sticks in his stomach. So now he can digest them better. He's actually metabolizing the emotional experience. He's Digesting the emotional experience and crying can be part of that.

[00:54:20] Flynn Skidmore: That's his body, like, metabolizing it. It's that, that experience, the meaning of that experience, the lessons in there are entering his, who he is, his nervous system, his self. 

[00:54:32] Dr. Scott Lyons: Rest and digest is a transitionary stage that brings us to our final stage, which is restoration where are the mitochondria of ourselves are rebuilding the energy required to continue and be in this constant cycle of adaptation.

[00:54:49] Dr. Scott Lyons: If we are thwarted in this cycle. If we do not get to complete this cycle of adaptation, what starts to happen is over time [00:55:00] is it gets backed up and compounded and we become less adaptable. And our physiology, the innate intelligence of our physiology is no longer able to register how much energy, emotion, and attention is needed to functionally adapt to a stimulus.

[00:55:18] Dr. Scott Lyons: And so we get cro like, it goes haywire, and in the haywire ness, our immune system goes, What the fuck? I don't know what to do either. Should I, should I be really active? Should I just lay down and sleep for a while? Because I don't know how to modulate and identify how much energy is needed to functionally adapt towards the stimulus, whether it's disease, whether it's a lover, whether it's a ball being thrown at us, whatever it is, we're no longer in We're in dysregulation, and in dysregulation is where disease forms.

[00:55:54] Dr. Scott Lyons: It is not the stress. Or the stressor, because a ball being [00:56:00] thrown at you might bring you joy. A ball being thrown at me might bring me overwhelm. And I'm not going to gas, you're not gaslighting me if you say, wait, that ball brought me joy. Yeah. Uh, but so the same stimulus or the same. Stressor is not evil or good per se, it just based on our own historic experiences might require more or less activation energy than one from one person than another.

[00:56:31] Dr. Scott Lyons: And how they're able to be in this process, this stress response process is going to be different based on where they supported as a kid. What's their attachment style? What was their relationship to stress? To begin with, you know, all of these things that either allow our functional adaptation in the world to be in this dance of life, which is full of surprises, because nothing is [00:57:00] consistent, except inconsistency.

[00:57:04] Dr. Scott Lyons: So going back to your friends, or you're the guy you were listening to, this is our ability to be prepared and not hyper vigilantly, but to be prepared for the surprises. 

[00:57:17] Flynn Skidmore: I've heard, uh, I've, I've, I've heard stress described as there's stress and then, and there's eustress and distress. Eustress, E U, what you're talking about, where one person perceives themselves to be.

[00:57:34] Flynn Skidmore: To be able to competently adapt competently and functionally adapt to whatever the stimulus is. So a ball being thrown at you, like you might have joy because you can adapt to that stressor. Yeah. 

[00:57:45] Dr. Scott Lyons: Whereas if you never stress for you, it might fall into the category of distress for me. Right. I mean, I don't have the resources to weather and navigate the stimulus.

[00:57:56] Flynn Skidmore: And you may. You may have [00:58:00] had 10 or 25 experiences growing up where like in gym class, you got hit in the face with a dodgeball and rather than it being like material for you to belong and it's like actually funny, you get ridiculed and shamed for it. So then all of a sudden this stressor, the ball coming at you, like it's also about that accumulation of experience, which contributes to the distress.

[00:58:28] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yes, the associative memory process will contribute to how we are in relation to the stimulus itself. Nothing is neutral. Eating an apple is not neutral. It is still a stressor, it is still a stimulus. Just in the same way getting into a fight with a partner is not neutral. Everything we are in response to, that is the dance of life.

[00:58:55] Dr. Scott Lyons: That is the surprises that a functional, uh, human [00:59:00] has the resources to be in relation to. One of the 

[00:59:05] Flynn Skidmore: things that I find with what we're speaking about is when you've entered this experience of life, where life feels this way, the way that you're speaking about, you understand, I understand, and the people that I speak with who have stepped into this experience of life, that it is the most valuable thing that there is.

[00:59:26] Flynn Skidmore: To experience life in this way as a dance. It's 

[00:59:30] Dr. Scott Lyons: we're oh, go ahead. We're talking about a flow state Yeah, we're talking about living We're talking about living in a, in a, in a flow state as opposed to accident and, and having the resources and the conditions to be in relation to the world and ourselves continuously without being kind of knocked out of ourselves, abandoning ourselves, knocked out of relationship and still recognizing that we can have rupture in relationship and still repair it and be in [01:00:00] this dance without falling to pieces.

[01:00:05] Dr. Scott Lyons: Without becoming, um, dysregulated to the degree where we can no longer modulate our energy, attention, and emotions. 

[01:00:15] Flynn Skidmore: Right. And then experiencing life that way, where that's, that's the evidence that we have about ourselves is that we lose ourselves. We get taken away from ourselves. We get sucked into the black holes of our associative memory and become former parts of ourselves.

[01:00:29] Flynn Skidmore: Like, that's a scary way of living life. A scary future to see and when I've been in times of immense despair, it's because I haven't, I've been intellectually aware of what it might be like to be in a dance with life or to be in flow, but I've had no idea how to actually have that experience to relate to all things around me to relate to the experience of life.

[01:00:55] Flynn Skidmore: So then predicting the future, I'm just predicting more and more and more despair and overwhelm [01:01:00] and disempowerment. It's like, it's, it can be really overwhelming to not be, and it is really overwhelming to not be in that state. I, and you may agree with me. I think that not being in that state is the thing that I don't want to say contribute, or I don't want to say is the cause of, but is very much a highly influential ingredient of.

[01:01:25] Flynn Skidmore: All of the chronic illnesses that we see in our culture. 

[01:01:30] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah, uh, Pema Chodron and other people in the Buddhist lineage will call it Shampa, the gripping, the grasping and trying to hold and the rigidity. It's that in what we're talking about is almost like that freeze response, that toxic freeze and toxic shame.

[01:01:48] Dr. Scott Lyons: It's like the gripping, the control, as opposed to letting. And if we're, if we had the privilege of, of building enough resources to having support and love as a [01:02:00] child and in our communities and our families to be able to surf surprise, to surf the new one, like the dance and the challenges and being an adaptation, then, then we're able to feel that sense of flow.

[01:02:13] Dr. Scott Lyons: But for so many of us. Fear and terror and lack of resources, including social economic resources, did not allow us to feel comfortable or to feel like we, uh, had or, or really we didn't have the resources to really be able to adapt, to be in that stress response cycle easily. Yeah. And so, and so to go back, like, yes, um, it's, it's important to recognize many of us did not have the tools to be able to do that.

[01:02:51] Dr. Scott Lyons: And on a bigger level, and a lot of, and especially like the Buddhist tradition we'll talk about, that it's the gripping, [01:03:00] it's the controlling, it's the lack of finding your flow through adaptation and flexibility that causes disease and 

[01:03:09] Flynn Skidmore: suffering. And in order to, so one of the things that I think about a lot, so I think about flow and self actualization is like.

[01:03:20] Flynn Skidmore: Fairly synonymous. Maybe flow is an even better thing to say than self actualization. I think a lot about like, what does it look like for us to live in a culture and a society where we're pretty clear on the basic things that people need in order to pursue self actualization if they so choose, and what does it look like for us to collectively be invested in, um, providing.

[01:03:50] Flynn Skidmore: All people access to those things, but I think that that brings up a really, it, it brings up a really interesting [01:04:00] thing to me, which is like, if a person is given something and like, does, does that, if a person is given something, does that help them? On their way to self actualization or does it hinder them to on their path of self actualization because it seems like in terms of access to flow and access to resources, there are thresholds towards towards the side of poverty and then towards the side of ultra wealth.

[01:04:33] Flynn Skidmore: Like I actually personally, in my experience. I know more people who grew up in poverty that would consider themselves to be self actualized and in flow than I do people who grew up wealthy who would consider themselves to be self actualized and in flow. And I don't have any answers to that. I'm not trying to romanticize poverty [01:05:00] and suffering and struggle in any way.

[01:05:02] Flynn Skidmore: But it's just, it's just, uh, it's a question that I have, and I'm not even forming a question. I'm just sharing observations, and I'm curious about how you synthesize 

[01:05:12] Dr. Scott Lyons: that. Yeah. So if, um, you know, um, if self realization is the top of the pyramid, let's say, we know that the bottom of the pyramid, uh, that what works up to self actualization is Things like the, their basic needs of safety being met, which include having enough resources to eat, not feeling like you're in constant danger, things like that.

[01:05:38] Dr. Scott Lyons: So I, I don't, you know, like I can speak to it in that regard that, um, are there these fundamental primal things of safety, uh, resources, relationship, and love that build up to someone feeling, Uh, and having access into essentially yielding into self [01:06:00] actualization, fully being realized in themselves and connected to the world.

[01:06:05] Dr. Scott Lyons: You know, when you talk about like, what would a world look like, uh, that is more in flow, I think we have small examples of it that are interesting. And, and we know it by looking at like slipstreams. Yeah, so like when you see a group of bikers, um, road bikes that are racing, that the person in the front is what's called creating, they're creating what's called a slipstream.

[01:06:32] Dr. Scott Lyons: So it creates this, this way in which there's more access in through like a wind tunnel for everyone to have less effort and be able to be part of. Uh, part of it and they take turns just like ducks do to, to build this slipstream together for it so that they can move through the world with less effort, more ease, more [01:07:00] accessibility.

[01:07:01] Dr. Scott Lyons: If we think about resources, the resources like love, food, belonging, safety, security as the bikes. Yeah. And this model and we get to sit on safely on the bikes. And then in relationship to each other, create and be in that slipstream for an effortless ease of connection and flow through the world. It's still re we still rest on all of these fundamental things that we have or don't have in our development that allow us to be a part of that.

[01:07:39] Flynn Skidmore: I really like the idea. It's funny that you bring up the, the cyclist example, cause I was, I was just thinking about, uh, how wolves travel yesterday, which is a little bit different, but it's, it's a, it's, it's really interesting because, um, kind of like. This is just where my mind is going with this example right now.

[01:07:59] Flynn Skidmore: Like we're [01:08:00] in the West. We're used to a very wave form of storytelling climax. And then it peaks, which is actually a very masculine form of storytelling. Like that's the wave of ejaculation. You know, um, there's this, this woman who wrote this book, it's called like meandering spiraling. I can't remember what it is, but her point is that our story format follows one pattern that exists in nature, but there are so many beautiful patterns that exist in nature.

[01:08:28] Flynn Skidmore: And here are examples of how to tell stories that's about branching or webbing or vortexing. Really cool. So. When we speak about ducks or cyclists using this pattern to generate efficiency, another example of generating efficiency is how wolves travel, which is that the, as far as I understand, the oldest and The oldest weakest wolves set the tone or set the pace.

[01:08:57] Flynn Skidmore: And then some of the strongest are right behind [01:09:00] them. And then some of the average members are right behind them. And then there are like two or three of the strongest. And then in the back furthest from everyone is the alpha. It's like a very, it's a different way. Of conserving energy and reaching this goal by lightening the load on everyone.

[01:09:19] Flynn Skidmore: And I just bring that up to say that I love the idea of learning from nature, like how we can do this thing and what it actually looks like. I love that you're speaking about cyclists, which is cyclists are replicating a pattern in nature to do the thing. I love that idea so much. And I'm curious about like.

[01:09:40] Flynn Skidmore: Like for, for listeners or the way that you encourage people in your world, like, what, what's your take on what people can do to be the cyclist who's in front sometimes and invite people along on the path and then get in the back for like, like, like, [01:10:00] how do you see people doing that or, or what do you think is the best way to start doing that?

[01:10:06] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's something about when we live our life in a flow state. And it has a contagious nature to it. So, you know, um, in the same way if you want to make change and transformation in the world, get embodied. You know, I, I, I, you know, I, I work very closely with a lot of friends, um, in, in different realms of social transformation and justice work.

[01:10:37] Dr. Scott Lyons: And they're like, the most important step along the way is you want to do all this big change out here. You gotta be the change in yourself first. You, and you gotta be that beacon of change. You gotta be that transmission of change. And in the same way that we're talking about it, it's like, if you want, [01:11:00] if you believe in a world that is full of, of connectivity and flow and, and interrelationship, be it.

[01:11:08] Dr. Scott Lyons: Do the work. Find it. Embody it. Realize it within yourself. And then you are that cyclist in the front. And then you get to take turns of other people and learn from them in that, in that ever expanding process of what it is to be a human. 

[01:11:26] Flynn Skidmore: Beautifully said. I, I agree so deeply that it is about committing to being the change.

[01:11:39] Flynn Skidmore: I do find that people, I do find that pretty often people who are involved in activist work are doing the thing that we've spoken about where they're playing an avatar and their values and their mission and like, as an activist is like, hoping that this avatar gets them presenting a [01:12:00] particular way gets them to be safe.

[01:12:03] Flynn Skidmore: And the real opportunity that I see is like taking full ownership of, of being the change that they wish to see. Like if we want to create opportunities for other people, what opportunity, what does that look like? What is that world? And what's the actual result that we want to produce? Oh, that increases people's access to love and joy.

[01:12:24] Flynn Skidmore: Okay. Well, then what does it look like for me to be committed to generating and amplifying an experience of love and joy internally in the way that I relate to all things? What does it look like for me to really commit to being the energy that I wish to create in the world? And then I follow whatever path that I'm, that compels me or that I'm interested in.

[01:12:46] Flynn Skidmore: I make change and all the stuff that you're talking about leading the way. I just so deeply agree with you. Thank you. 

[01:12:54] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah. And you, the, your reflections back are really, um, [01:13:00] I received them and they're very validating and, uh, and it's, and then your words, the way you frame it again, it's really beautiful.

[01:13:07] Dr. Scott Lyons: So 

[01:13:07] Flynn Skidmore: thank you for that. Well, thank you. Cause throughout this conversation, I have been noticing that what, what's really inspiring to me and expansive to me about you and how you communicate is like, Um, you, you have beautiful, easily metabolized and digestible frameworks to explain so many of these things.

[01:13:30] Flynn Skidmore: Like I'll speak about a concept or a pattern that I observe and I notice, and you'll be like, Oh yeah, that's. This framework that I have, and you say the framework and it's like, Oh my God, that is beautiful. That's so good. And I just, I want to, I want to point that out because my understanding is that it takes an immense amount of focus and dedication and commitment and consistency to be able to distill something down in the way that in, in the way that you have been able to [01:14:00] distill so many things down.

[01:14:01] Flynn Skidmore: I really love the way that you communicate so many of these concepts. 

[01:14:06] Dr. Scott Lyons: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think it's easier to distill once we've, are in the experience itself. It's like, you know, I can talk about, um, inner, inner scripts. Yeah, the, the ways we form, like, these lines, these, these inner dialogues that, um, are, like, reinforcing a pattern.

[01:14:35] Dr. Scott Lyons: Yeah. Reinforcing the pain that we are holding. And it's like, if I just spoke about it from a theoretical sense, it's harder to distill because I don't actually know what's embedded within it. It's like, if I have made a cake from scratch, and, and, and messed it up here, and took too much flour in there, and, and worked it with my hands, like I, I could talk about the [01:15:00] process of baking a cake, or deconstructing the layers of a pattern.

[01:15:06] Dr. Scott Lyons: in the same way. But if I just read about a cake, I don't, it's hard to unpack it because I haven't actually experienced what it is to make it. It just reinforces like the difference between a concept and embodiment. 

[01:15:21] Flynn Skidmore: Yes, that's what it is. Like that's, that's what it is. It, it, it feels so good when something comes from an embodied place and you have a lot of that, 

[01:15:36] Dr. Scott Lyons: yeah, it just feels like less gaslighting.

[01:15:41] Flynn Skidmore: That's exactly what I was thinking. Awesome, Scott. Well, Hey, thank you. This was incredible. Um, really, really insightful. So many helpful frameworks, so many ways that you're making it easier for people to digest and [01:16:00] metabolize information. And I, that's, that's a big takeaway for me here is like, um, the, I think a lot about digestion.

[01:16:09] Flynn Skidmore: I think a lot about digesting information and what that's like and the, the frameworks that you shared here helping me think about that even more accurately and even in even more complex and beautiful way. So I really appreciate 

[01:16:23] Dr. Scott Lyons: that. Thank you so much. And it's always a pleasure to connect with you. If 

[01:16:27] Flynn Skidmore: you are a person who wants to make a loving impact on the world, if you want to contribute to the wellbeing of the world, Dr.

[01:16:35] Flynn Skidmore: Scott is really someone to pay attention to in particular, the way he communicates. If you heard throughout that episode, he's got frameworks for everything, like digestible little nuggets that helps you remember them. I'm so inspired by the way that Dr. Scott communicates. I learned so much in this episode about.

[01:16:54] Flynn Skidmore: So many different things from communication to stress frameworks. I know you all got so much out of it. [01:17:00] Thank you, Dr. Scott. Thank you all

[01:17:12] Dr. Scott Lyons: for

[01:17:17] Dr. Scott Lyons: being here.

[01:17:30] Dr. Scott Lyons: Mhm. Mhm.