The Risk Takers Podcast
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https://www.goldenpants.com/
The Risk Takers Podcast
Combining Math and Common Sense for Uncommon Profit w/ JFar | Ep 50
Episode 50! And this episode DELIVERS on the milestone.
We talk JFar taking on all of gambling Twitter (and being right?), the $40k bet no one knew about, and why people need to understand humans to truly "get" the math of sports betting.
Follow JFar on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JFar2Nice
Join JFar's Discord: https://whop.com/beat-the-books/
Welcome to The Risk Takers Podcast, hosted by professional sports bettor John Shilling (GoldenPants13) and SportsProjections. This podcast is the best betting education available - PERIOD. And it's free - please share and subscribe if you like it.
My website: https://www.goldenpants.com/
Follow SportsProjections on Twitter: https://x.com/Sports__Proj
Want to work with my betting group?: john@goldenpants.com
Want 100s of +EV picks a day?: https://www.goldenpants.com/gp-picks
We can talk about that 100k slip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:I talk about the slip, not because I want 100k off it. That is really not the reason I'll talk about the slip because of how I did it.
Speaker 2:Hey, what's up everybody. A really special episode of the risk takers podcast. Very, very famous. Our biggest star yet. We had Elphon last week. We're topping it this week in terms of Reach. We got Jay Pharr here. Thanks for joining me, man.
Speaker 1:For sure, man, super excited for this one Big, big fan of your content. I'm glad I kind of caught on to your following a few months ago. We've had a few conversations back and forth and yeah, I know you get it and I definitely appreciate the content you provide. It's incredible, man.
Speaker 2:Dude, it's very appreciative. And yeah, I've really enjoyed Jay Pharr and I've been DMing back and forth and we've had this has been a long time coming. I think we agreed to try and do this Like a month ago. Then I had a little bit of backlog of guests and finally we got here. But I've been looking forward to this for months and when you first came onto my radar, we'll start with the heavy hitting stuff.
Speaker 1:Let's do it right into it.
Speaker 2:I was just telling Jay Pharr about this. I was at the movies and I was new to Twitter, so I didn't know who you were at the time, even though you hit that big slip. Going back, I realized you will talk about that later but my phone was blowing up. I was like what's happening to plus EV Twitter? It's crazy. There's fires in the streets and it was like a bunch of people that are my friends, some have been guests on the pod. We're all up in your comments on something you said about plus EV betting and I remember reading it and messaging Brett Johnson from Hotstreek, who was the forgotten podcast. We had to take his podcast down and they're being like yeah, I agree with Jay Pharr. I'm like I totally agree, he's right here, but you were just fending off all of plus EV Twitter by yourself, man, that was going to war.
Speaker 1:I really was.
Speaker 2:I remember that one meme where it's just like you at the Brave Art.
Speaker 1:Museum, the Johnson O'Mean. The Johnson O'Mean Exactly how I felt, man, exactly how I felt, but you know what it is, I mean so the tweet went like this. It was sports books can't be solved solely by using math, and I picked my words very carefully in this tweet.
Speaker 1:It was short but sweet, but I picked my words very carefully, because it wasn't to say that you can't make a profit just using math or that you can't catch an edge just by using math, because we know all these things are obviously true. There's people that just shop lines all day, completely top down style and get the best price or something, and you're going to probably make some money off of that if you could just pick lines like that. But my thing was saying that there's no way you get the most optimal bang for your buck of sports betting just by doing this, and that's just very hard to disagree with, in my opinion, because how could you say that just this one style is just going to perfect everything and get the most money out of it? If that were true, then for one it would be fixed, because sports would want to just let that happen?
Speaker 1:Yeah, too easy. And two, we'd have all these odd jam subscribers in Lambos right now I mean just completely just taking over the South Beach, miami. So obviously there's just way more nuance to sports betting than that. And that's the point I was trying to get across. And every single person I responded to I basically just repeated that and they kept coming in my face. I saw some pickets from like. I saw like a week long picket once, like what kind of data is that? So you won for a week and you had to solve sports betting. It was a crazy, crazy night. But the other thing out of that is that we linked up with each other off that.
Speaker 2:I think I was there.
Speaker 2:Definitely was a good fire starter I would say, Dude, that was Because then I was like, yeah, I like retweeted your tweet and I was like, yeah, no, this is definitely right Because of X, Y, Z or something along those lines, and then we were starting DMing and whatnot. But I remember being like this is, it's an important topic, because there is a lot of value, as you said, to line shopping, Like I'm sure that you would line shop on top of your process. Of course, we're all going to try and find the best price and we're all trying to be aware of what the market's doing. It's just about stacking.
Speaker 2:It's like I wrote a tweet today about specializing and it was like learn how to be top down, take those tools and then, on top of it, specialize in a market, specialize in a sport, understand, have domain knowledge. There's no way that the best sports players they all, I believe have domain knowledge. If you think of, the most extreme example was Billy Walters was doing football for 20 years. It's like he wasn't. I mean, he had people running around to sports books for him, but he wasn't running back and forth between the Bellagio and the wind, just line shopping.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly.
Speaker 2:That's what you've got to think about.
Speaker 1:That's, the whole mega top down thing is very internet-born Because, like you said, back in the Billy Walters days there was no odd jam or picket to odd shop for you. So of course Billy Walters still managed to find great prices when he did, but a lot of it had to come from domain knowledge, because otherwise for one he wouldn't even know what a good price was if he had no domain knowledge. Because fair value, just calculating up, d-vigging, that wasn't happening like that back then. So how would he even know if he was getting the best value? And then also, like you said, it's not like he's going along the trip just door to door to door checking the market price every single minute. It was almost impossible. So we have to understand that again, the best sports betters, even through history, have just had way more different levels of expertise than just this mathematical approach.
Speaker 2:And that's it, totally agree. And I do think that I imagine, after the tensions released and whatnot, that people saw that what you were saying was completely agreeable, and I think what it wasn't was. It wasn't saying that top down doesn't work, it's top down work.
Speaker 1:Why would I ever say that?
Speaker 2:That's great. But I thought that was great and I think it's. I try and be a little too. I'm agreeable on Twitter, so I'm not out there starting too many things but I thought that was an important discourse Because actually I think it probably connected two communities that were the same community and they didn't realize it.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I'm glad you said that, Because that's exactly my next point, the reason that whole tweet even got boring.
Speaker 1:I didn't just wake up one day and decided you know, say it was super controversial, but it shouldn't be a controversial thing. I realized the attitude that a lot of the plus EV people were having was kind of condescending, just to be very honest, and it seemed to kind of just piss all over a lot of people who have a more bottom up style and are kind of finding value in different ways. One the whole point is that, again, like you said, it's two communities that are kind of doing the same thing just in slightly different ways and, honestly, if we could combine the two ideas, you're going to get a much more efficient approach. And the crazy thing is, ever since that tweet, I just look back and a lot of plus EV people are kind of doing more bottom up style things.
Speaker 2:And I was just like whoa.
Speaker 1:OK, so the whole time you kind of agreed, really All right.
Speaker 2:It's incredible. Yeah, yeah, it's good. Look, you're making waves. I think it was like it opened the discourse up and anytime you start thinking about something, you'll probably if you're doing sports banks to make money, ultimately you want to do the things that make you the most money and that's what you're doing. That's what the plus EV people are doing. If you were like, wow, I can just go in AudgeM and make $100,000 a day, jfr would be doing that.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't be bothering with bottom up. Exactly, it's not like you know. So it's just about how are you going to make the money, how are you going to find ways, how are you going to level up your game? Because another actually this is a good topic is 2024. This is the first podcast of the new year. We were talking a little bit, thinking about what the landscape is going to look like in 2024. And I think we both agreed that it might get harder and you might have to combine. You might have to add new skills. If you're top down, you might need to add some bottom up. If you're bottom up, you might need to add some top down right For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're noticing across all these markets, especially a lot of the alt-player-props markets, the books are finally starting to catch on to what the value really was, and this actually goes into a bit of a philosophy I've had for years. I love it. Is that honestly? I've been saying this for so long. We should have been slamming these alt-props almost across every sport because they were just too good.
Speaker 2:They really were, and I kept telling people this won't be the same for very long, so do it where you can.
Speaker 1:And if we look across the board, all the major sports for sure, nba, nfl, mob. If you go back two years, these props are triple the value as to what they are now. It's incredible See.
Speaker 1:I didn't even know there's a lot of multiples of value that have just been slashed off the board in the first baskets and three pointers for NBA points, mob, we're talking strikeouts, home runs, the slashed. And that's because, honestly, the books didn't have a good idea of the ceiling of players. Yes, interesting, and a lot of the discourse around fair value relies on the median right. Yep Either using projections or some sort of way to get a median value of what a guy does.
Speaker 1:And just only focusing on the median ignores the whole concept of rage of outcomes, because of course there are some guys that are only going to have, like the median, like some guys who just have almost no ceiling but they have a very strong floor and they're always going to get this one number like every time for some problem Cool. But then there's guys who maybe the median tear, but they're either going to have this there or that thing and if you pick one of those guys, you could just only take the ults for the ceiling because you know if he actually does what he's supposed to do, he's going to probably smash NBA player that is probably going to have his Jordan pool. People always use him because he's a player that's very, very shrieky. He's a knucklehead, honestly.
Speaker 2:But when he shot his on, he shot it on right.
Speaker 1:So, that means this right here is going to make you a lot of money doing that.
Speaker 2:And you don't care about the other section of this.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't even matter Exactly and the butcher slowed to that and I told people that a long time. But the whole top down approach is going to oftentimes miss that, because top down is very focused on media and you're going to get okay, you get great value off of that, but you might miss some concepts down the road focusing on that.
Speaker 2:I think understanding distribution like abnormal distributions or like non-standard distributions is incredibly important in sports and it's something that a lot of the people that I look up to and learn from talk a lot about. And I'm certainly not at a level where I even feel like I understand all the value that can be squeezed out of different types of distributions and it's something like I'm looking into. So listening to you say that, like I, that makes a ton of sense and it isn't something you see in plus EV.
Speaker 1:That's the thing yeah, it's not, it definitely it could be. You know it definitely could be. It's strange because we can talk about that 100K slip.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I talk about the slip not because I want to educate off of it that is really not the reason I'll talk about the slip because of how I did it. Because if you look at that split, I took two pictures to hit their max right now and combined why did I get plus 70,000 knots for that? You just have to think if you took any, if you went through baseball the whole year you took two pictures max right out from a different. You combine them you would often get like five plus 15,000 plus 20,000 ish right, and that's on Fandle, who very often have the best all props.
Speaker 1:So I mean decent deal, okay, but for some reason throughout the whole year, when you did the same game and you combine those two pictures max right coats the value just would just triple. Interesting For some reason, fandle, there's some negative correlation between two pictures in the same game maxing out, which? You know I thought about this for so long. And I can't think of a single reason why those two would be negatively correlated, but in fact I can think of like five reasons why they'd be positively correlated.
Speaker 1:Strong wind big, generous, big strike zone. Exactly, and I think that's two pictures having a dual because, honestly, if the game is close and it's like zero, zero, the pictures will probably pitch longer because both pictures are odd and that means no, no manager wants to put their bullpen in early in the game. I believe Right, there's so many reasons why it is worked out. And that wasn't even the first time I hit that idea. I hit that same idea like two months earlier for like 40 K, yeah, in a Mariners and that's how it blew up. But it didn't blow up enough to where Fandle shut it down. But the hundred case left after I hit that one, fandle took away all the like very highest max alt-right, because they figured out like whoa something wrong what we're doing here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love the wind idea. Yeah, there's this you could just do there are so many times where I waited for like a Wrigley Field cold, windy and just hammer the two pictures, didn't care who it was, yeah. Right, right, right, because I'm getting value.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and there's. So there's angles like that. There are a lot of those that exist that I've found, that I've been patched, that I still have and keeping in my back pocket and it's not just me, this isn't like a me thing. A lot of the best bottom up better is that are on Twitter in that space that I think should get more respect. I've found an incredible amount of these angles. For sure, I think a popular one, like a popularized by Chili Betts on Twitter, is the negative correlation between football. Yeah, so what you do is you take like a receiver is like a max yards and you take is like under receptions, and the idea is you take like a deep shot guy and it gets like one deep pass and then doesn't do the rest of the game. Fanduul gave you like incredible negative correlation value for that, probably more than they should. They still do it. They probably won't last. If you look at like six months later and the next NFL season is gone, we shouldn't be surprised because, like it's too much value.
Speaker 2:So it was the theory that if you had a receiver that was more of like a possession receiver, their yards and their receptions are more correlated. Whereas if they're like a you know a gun or whatever you're going to Exactly.
Speaker 1:There's plenty of receivers that get two targets a game and they're both deep bombs and you could even flip it. You can do like if a receiver is very possession and doesn't get much depth on their yards, you can do max receptions under yards. You get the same value. I've seen that too. Yep, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:See, this is the stuff. This is like what you got to be clicking around, I think if you listen I don't know if you listened to the Ed Miller one, but this is like exactly what Ed Miller talks about. It's just these weird situations, situations that aren't normal. You might as well not go look at just the middle of the road NFL receiver who's just like gets you know six yards, you know a target and you know whatever. But it's like these weird situations. That's what you're looking for, because the books have to like model all of these props, all of these props, and they're not putting in each unique distribution or player tendencies, like they'll. Be like a wide receiver is a wide receiver. You know how could?
Speaker 1:they? How could they possibly I mean maybe in a few years if their operations get like much bigger. But this is the thing I think people assume too is that these sports books are just some huge conglomerate mega minds that omniscient beings know everything. Never got that, but I'll kind of go in my background a bit. So yeah, as a career, before I kind of went full time with this, I was an industrial engineer, which okay, and now I was a pretty good one, I would say. I went to a lot of Fortune 500 companies for GM, Tesla Rivian.
Speaker 2:Even though you don't know math.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, even though I'm not a math guy, right, incredible. And it's so funny because the first time the EV community came at me wasn't even the November thing, it was in July. I was still working. I was at my desk at Rivian looking over there, major like JPH data it was telling me about like a second math. I'm like incredible. But that's my whole background. And that kind of data analysis was very based on human behavior because industrial engineering is meant to improve companies' productivity.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to like manufacturing lines with actual people are assembling cars, rockets, whatever, and we're trying to figure out how they could possibly do it faster. And a lot of that has to do with the actual person who was the operator. We often give them percentages of how efficient they were. So like a hundred percent operator was like a super duper, amazing. Most people are like around like seventy percent operation and you have to work with that and that's the exact context of data that you have to approach this with. And so go back to the sports books thing.
Speaker 1:There is no possible way that the teams that the sports books have could analyze all these outcomes, all these distributions, to get every single outcome. So what they do is they use medians for pretty much everything, and if you're earlier props, you oftentimes will see this, because sometimes they just use like for NBA, let's say, they use like points for a game, like something like just very easy, easy to beat, metric, like when they first drop the line. But then good people bet the line and they're like oh OK, well, maybe this points for a game thing wasn't very good. We're going to adjust it to that guy, because that guy usually is pretty good. And now now the line is good, right, but it's not because the sports books were on this shit and they just knew it, it's because someone told them through their bed hey, like that line bad, you should change it. And they did.
Speaker 2:And that's sports betting. That's just, that's what it is Like like I do, I do always and that like today. Today I was thinking about this because I wrote the post, but it's like sports books. I actually use the word omniscient, but then I deleted it because I have this like word editor, that when I write it's like use different is basically want you to really a greater, and I think it's like good Most of the time.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, if anyone or no, it is Twitter, so like probably the best.
Speaker 2:It's a Hemingway. I actually highly recommend it. I know you're right, you're starting to do a little more long yeah.
Speaker 1:I recommend it.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's fired by you Like I said I do appreciate that and like, but yeah, it's like, it's so defeatist and it's wrong to even think because, one, where are the best sports betters? Are they working at the sports books? They are not. They are not. They would not, wouldn't be worth it for them, like money wise, it's not worth it.
Speaker 2:So all of the best sports betters don't work at sports books and the sports books are trying to get their information and they have pretty good sports betters there who have to do a lot of things. They have to get up a thousand lines a day. They have to monitor, you know, the customer flow. They have to report to their like cranky boss every time something random happens. Their incentives aren't even like aligned at each level of the sports book. So they're not going to be even trying to be the sharpest better out there. It's not even their main goal. They're just trying to get something up that works, that can take a lot of bets and make money and probably take some market share from their rival. Exactly, exactly. So we think it's like, we think it's all about us. They're trying to beat us, you know, like they don't even really care too much about us.
Speaker 1:They care a little bit.
Speaker 2:I'll intro this back. So yeah, the classic cranberry juice camera ever heating. Anyone hit me up in the DMs if you know how to fix this. Yeah, we were talking about. You know how the sports. You know thinking about sports betting from the sports books point of view and understanding like they're human. As you were working with data that was very human driven. This is like the same thing we're working with. There's a lot of nuance and imperfection and, you know, don't limit yourself by thinking these places are omniscient.
Speaker 1:You know, there's powerful books.
Speaker 2:They're just like us.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think a lot of people come from a good place when they kind of try to suggest that the books are very good, because I mean, yes, they are in a very like average sense. The books are very good and you don't want people to just donate learning hard lessons. But I also think that there's a side to it where you don't want to discourage people from learning because you start saying things like that oh, your research is useless, why are you even trying? The books are too good. You'll never beat them, like and it's sports betting accounts that have told me that I'm like wait, hold on. Are you trying to do this too?
Speaker 2:But right.
Speaker 1:Anyway, like you could research and get an edge. It's about what you research, it's about how you're approaching it and how are you using that data to fit your narrative, to fit your angle. It's a lot of people just don't do great research, as it turns out, and that's honestly not a novel idea that sports betting that's kind of through history been true If you just look at any other aspect of almost anything.
Speaker 1:People just don't do great research and that's true for sports betting as well, and the best sports winners have to learn their hard lessons, learn what works and doesn't work, and they just don't use bad data. They're not looking in game logs for the last time these teams played four years ago to see what happened. No one cares. They're focusing on advanced stats, to focus on things that can project for performance. Yeah, looking for trends in people coming up and and again it goes back to how could a single mini conglomerate of a sports book ever keep track of all these things? Players getting called up in rookie years and stuff, and we don't really know how they're going to perform. Players that who are veterans have come back to the game and do they remember how good they were two years ago? Are they still good now? Were they tracking how they looked in rehab practices? How?
Speaker 2:could they possibly do? All that Come on? Were they listening to every coach interview or understanding how, when one player talks, what that means? Is that high minutes talk, or is that talk for I'm getting low minutes, or whatever it is? I'm sure that that's important.
Speaker 1:Exactly. There's no way. There's times where an NBA like, let's say, a player, let's say I hit my phone right now and some player got down when you're the questionable, sometimes the books still will still get the props up. They got much better at that, they used to be awful at it, but still to this day, when a guy gets a question, they almost always said and the books just leave the prop up and it's almost like a free roll because okay, now you got the prop like the guy was in, so it can't be that bad, and if the guy sits he's got like amazing value for free.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:There's so many things like that that still existed this day.
Speaker 2:There's definitely free roll spots. It's something actually we haven't talked about on this podcast, but I think there's lots of spots where, as a better, you can kind of manufacture like a synthetic free roll, and that's edge too. Of course it's about all the tools. It's about all the tools, it's not. You're not going to see a free roll from an odd screen, but you will sometimes find, like Jafar saying, a free roll if you're following what's actually going on. We found that in golf, for sure, like a couple free roll spots. That's, you know, totally fine, and then the other, the mega free roll. This is a great free roll. That some of our sportsbook friends won't love is if a sportsbook, if you have like a VIP connection on a sportsbook and they post the line and it's like wrong or the player names misspelled or something, you can always try and get your money back if you lose.
Speaker 1:You're like that was wrong. What's wrong with that, dude? It was an angle.
Speaker 2:An angle, you got to use all the tools, man.
Speaker 1:You got to use all the tools.
Speaker 2:I you know, and I think that's why I found talking with you so interesting, because it's like you're thinking outside the box, we're talking about different things that don't just go to devigging and, like I think devigging is important. Learn how to devig, learn how to devig and properly devig and this is one thing.
Speaker 1:I'll say about myself I'll never pretend to be an expert of stuff for them not.
Speaker 2:I am not an expert in devigging.
Speaker 1:but I also think that a lot of people are thinking they're experts at devigging but they're not Devigging lines that the other side almost never gets bet on, devigging lines that just don't really make sense to devig, like a lot of like home runs goals. These things are no one's betting, no home run.
Speaker 2:No one's ever doing that, so how chart?
Speaker 1:can no home run really be. So you're gonna devig off of that and say, hey, all home runs suck, don't play them.
Speaker 2:The juice is not equal on each side.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That's exactly. I promise the juice is. If you're out there devigging right now, the juice is not evenly distributed. It is not. There's actually a side that probably still doesn't have juice because the number got steamed one bump up to that number and that number still value because the group that steamed it put the true value even higher than the number got bumped up to. So if the numbers gotten steamed in a direction, the juices certainly not evenly distributed and if you're de-juicing that you're often gonna be finding negative. So it's like I don't try and warn people of this.
Speaker 1:That's real. So here's an example. Right, let's say that. Let's say I had a conglomerate and we woke up and we saw this picture get listed that three and a half strikeouts yeah, oh, this pictures a freaking animal and he's getting six innings or more yeah, so we're gonna definitely bet this, right? Oh, books say that now it's raised a four and a half Off your example. A lot of people would. If someone were to post four and a half later on Twitter, you might get me a ton of oh, it was three and a half, yeah, but now the picture goes out and gets eight strikeouts.
Speaker 2:What do you say?
Speaker 1:Oh well, there's various, you got lucky. Yeah, next five starts eight strikeouts or more. No, okay, well, it's a time that was live seven and a half and, yeah, all this time we should have been betting it the whole time.
Speaker 2:Obviously, what's even worse is if you move it on one book or whatever and people devig the three and a half. They take the under on the four and a half when the syndicate that moved it was had their true value at like five, five and a half. So now you're going under four and a half and it's not only not profitable but it's a huge loser. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and you'll never really know. Just off of that, you'll never know and you'll attribute it to just bad luck, that's as we did.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:I mean that's and that's fine. You know variance exists, but that is kind of the whole crux of the whole argument, isn't? It Is that variance exists. So to act like you could solve this whole mathematical equation which an incredible amount of variables, I mean, man, like that's a whole new level of calculus that I just. I took a lot of courses and I didn't learn that one. I took a lot of advanced math and wow, you're incredible. If you could do that, I mean you can get close, of course, yeah.
Speaker 2:You get close and it's fun to try. I agree, Like Bottom up, it's fun when you're thinking about that, when you're looking at the Wrigley Field oh is it cold or whatever and you go out and you test your hypothesis, right, You're like I'm putting money into play based on an opinion, based on some angle. I found it works. It's just like the money's worth like 10 times in happiness to the money you make from, just like a Steam Chase or a Deepak. Go make your money. Go make your money. Money is actually should all be worth the same. Go make a lot of money and save for retirement. I'm not saying don't do these things, but I am saying it's fun, Give it a try. On the side. Why?
Speaker 1:not do both? Just tip your toes. Yeah, why not do both? If you're doing sports betting for real, full time, you could do both. I'll just say that Definitely, I mean even if you're working for a longest time I traveled for work For the longest time.
Speaker 1:I came home almost every weekend because I had my girl, my family, so I would fly to the Midwest for work on like Sunday night, wake up super early, go to work. I worked like 10 hours. I mean good money, I worked a lot, Came back didn't my bet all that Friday flew back and I was doing bets in airports and stuff. Yeah, I made it work. You could definitely make it work. And the thing of what you said about how that kind of bottom up style is sometimes worth 10 times more in happiness, it also could be worth 10 times more in money if you find a game breaking angle. Yes, and I will very often say in that finding a game breaking angle from a top down way is a lot harder to do than vice versa from the other side.
Speaker 2:And if you look at that, how did?
Speaker 1:they flip again. That was a game breaking angle because I just bet. I didn't bet every single picture from every game. I was selective and picked spots where I think it worked.
Speaker 2:But in my head I'm like if I hit one of these. I can be like changing money.
Speaker 1:Right, I hit two of them. I mean God bless, but that was a game breaking angle that I might even sure will exist anymore. But I mean the whole top down approach that'll always be there and that's just great solid money.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But how game breaking can it be? Keeps the lights on, and that's amazing and that's amazing and I never want to knock. That, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:I agree, and you know, sam here, now that back to your picture, slip, because now this is something that me and my like my betting partner talk about. It's. You figure this angle out and you're like this is definitely good. Because you're like, okay, why is this negatively correlated? You're getting three X a return. It must be super negatively correlated. I can't figure out why it is. It doesn't make any sense. I don't know exactly what the correlation is, but I know it's good.
Speaker 2:So when you know Jafar sees that bet, he doesn't have a fair, he has an idea. You have an idea, right, exactly. But you're like I'm going to still bet it because I know it's good. I might not know how good, but I'm certainly betting it. And I do think that's something that I've wanted to push people towards. Like a lot of people who come from the odd screens and whatnot. I find it hard to kind of push them out into situations where they're taking risks without a fair. But all of the biggest spots, all of the biggest spots. I think you won't know the fair, but you'll know it's good. So you have to have a plan in place when that comes up to bet it, or else you're just like going to miss out on these big, big opportunities.
Speaker 1:Very, very well said GP, and I think the reason that you'll never have a fair is because those whole game breaking angles are often unprecedented. There's often not historical data to go back and say, hey, you know this work. Because of that, the books probably messed up somewhere. And if you do find that, how can you know that you found it if you're just relying on only going up fairs?
Speaker 2:That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:That's tough, and that's where domain knowledge does come in, because if you're the first man to climb Everest, you better have the flag in your hand. Why would you do all that work and be the first person there, and you don't even know what to do with it? You better have a flag to put down. Come on, though, you can't just walk to the mountain top and claim yourself a profit without even know how to recite a Bible verse or something. You got to be very careful with spots like that.
Speaker 2:Dude, if you're the first man that climbs Everest, you better have a flag.
Speaker 2:I love that oh yeah, yeah, and that is. That is a bigger. It has a bigger impact than people think because so you hit it 100k slip and a 40k slip. I'm thinking back to our last year. We had a couple spots where, you know, the books didn't understand something about what was happening in golf. One weekend was 100k, one was 80k and we didn't make like $5 million. Last year, those weekends made up a big, big portion of what we did, and so it was the year before as well. Same thing. It's okay to have some chunky profits, and that's how it works. I think I found in trading, your year is going to be made up of a couple amazing spots, a couple amazing days, and then you're keeping the lights on in between.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and people oftentimes hate when I do parallels to trading because people see sports betting as way more taboo in trading. So they all hate that.
Speaker 2:But there's so many parallels to trading, so many.
Speaker 1:It's exactly like you said. I mean, if you're a great trader, you're going to oftentimes catch the market when it's a bowler bear. You're going to be able to play the trend and you're going to make a bowler. But off of playing that, you're going to catch one or two just crazy bullers or a crazy short either way, and that's going to, like you said, make up a majority of your profit. And in those flash moments you got to make the right decision. And because there's missing out on that is you're talking about EV.
Speaker 2:That's incredible loss with EV. Yes, yes, it's like being a tournament player and having a terrible like short-handed poker game. The payouts and tournaments are so highly distributed up top, if you're trash at four or three handed heads up when you get there, the EV you're losing per hand by being bad at that in those situations is so high Because you're playing now for a couple hundred buy-ins. Exactly, you're playing three handed four.
Speaker 1:It's a classic example of like you're what, a huge catch-paying player like things there, the shit, and then like those tournaments and try to do a whole year of tournaments and making an ICM mistake all of a sudden and they're just giving up place value for no reason.
Speaker 2:And all of a sudden they go broke.
Speaker 1:Those little things are so huge when it's like a very volatile high pressure moment and you know what You've got to capitalize.
Speaker 2:That cash game player, because I know cash game players and I don't know if any poker crowd has migrated over to here. But Jay.
Speaker 2:Far and I both played those cash game. Players think the tournament players suck. They're like these people suck and you know what? Yeah, they definitely suck at deep stack, but like they know where their money comes from. So I think knowing where your money comes from is so important, and like realizing that when your money might be coming from a couple big spots a year, you start to think differently about sports. Better, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:I completely agree and, like the whole keep the lights on thing is again it's so crucial because I think give you the confidence that when you believe you, found a real spot to actually get the money in and get it in good, you know, because if you didn't have that it would be a lot more difficult to say, hey, you know, I can't really afford to keep following this spot. You know, because I mean, let's the same baseball slip plus 70,000. Yeah, I got great value, but I'm still not going to hit it very often.
Speaker 2:I got to play it out. You know I'm not going to hit the first, second, third or second or second.
Speaker 1:You lost one or two. Yeah, come on Obviously Like that's not how I can't just hit it the top.
Speaker 2:It's crazy. There's probably people on Twitter that's like thought that you just you hit that as your one slip.
Speaker 1:There's that, and there's also people that think I played it so much that I lost money on it.
Speaker 2:I played.
Speaker 1:Saturday 2009,. 99 slips of it. Are you kidding me, like bro? It's incredible, it's incredible.
Speaker 2:The other thing about the Keeping the Lights On conversation is you have to be in the market to even have that. So you've got to have the bankroll and keep the bankroll. But you also have to be logging in and tracking, because the thing is it's going to pop up. So you go about your betting process. Most days you'll find a couple of small spots. But if you keep putting yourself there, you keep putting yourself in position and you keep trying to be thoughtful about what you're doing, the spot will kind of come to you. Exactly, it won't come to you because you have to do the work of being there, but it will come to you as in like it will show itself if you're doing enough.
Speaker 1:I very often say one of the best things you could do as a sports better is just memorize what each player's lines was for each, like proceeding day on each sports.
Speaker 1:If you can, it's a lot, but if you just know this, guy like if I know, this picture is like a four and a half strikeout guy every time, like that's what the books are giving him. Yeah, one day I wake up he's two and a half, no reason why. Okay, great, you could just take it, you don't have to wait for like more information to come in and all that, the lineup to come out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude, you're good, you're the best hitters who's ever lived Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly If you've played nine.
Speaker 1:Mary Bonsons and maybe you might fade it, but most likely it's going to be some average baseball team and okay, you're good, right, right, and that is a huge benefit. I think that's actually one of the things that I've made the most money off of, just as of a kind of it's like a reactionary thing is just knowing what the books are listing a player all the time, because sometimes I'll just mess up Especially, let's say, a player gets injured for a bit. They come back, yep, like sometimes they forget what they had of that. It's weird. They were just listening a lot softer, even like two games back from the injuries, just listening like this after, and just way nitty smashed and then they wereverted back to the line Exactly.
Speaker 1:Like oh wait, they're like oh fuck. Yeah, the panic button.
Speaker 2:That's the case in golf. I try not to talk too much about golf on here, but I will say the injury angle is true for all things. Another thing sports books. My favorite quote from Ed Miller is like if you're watching a game and there's a flag that's thrown and it's challenged, the sportsbook doesn't have a data feed that says challenge likely to be overturned.
Speaker 1:But if you understand the game, you certainly know if the challenge is likely to be overturned.
Speaker 2:And everyone can relate to that. What I'm saying is like a sportsbook doesn't really have a feed. Being like this player who's now injured was playing actually injured for 10 games, they don't know, but if you're following you might know, you might realize. Oh, that was the game where so-and-so elbowed them in the back and then he started playing a few less minutes and then he went out with a back injury for two months. Well, those 10 games probably aren't very representative of who that is as a player, but they're the most recent 10 games in the sportsbook sample and when he comes back they might be the game.
Speaker 1:I can't go off of that Exactly. I mean not always, but if the players, if the players very famous or very well-known to be able to smash their line, then they'll probably be okay with it. But really more low key guys yeah.
Speaker 2:Definitely that can happen. Definitely, and do you find yourself often like you talked about Jordan Poole. I think Jordan Poole is like well-known, but well-known for being kind of like a while and knucklehead?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, pretty much.
Speaker 2:Are you often finding yourselves just tracking? You know you're not sitting there tracking LeBron all day, I'm sure or like Clay and Kurt Shaw.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, I do the best I can man, that's what I always say and I've always heard everyone to do I look at a lot of film. I don't look at every film.
Speaker 2:I look at a lot of possessions.
Speaker 1:But I can't read every play and I never will try to. I'm just looking for the thing that it goes back to knowing when you're right, and this is a philosophy I haven't read in general. I never speak unless I know I'm right. I think people a lot of time just speak even if they don't really know. They're right, just make like a very bold statement and something they don't know a lot about for some reason, and I just kind of not do that, because why would you do that?
Speaker 1:So I just wait until all my boxes are checked and then I go forward. I don't need to go to a spot where, like I think I might be right it's, unless I think there's as much value at the end of the tunnel there. Sometimes, but for the most part, I'm just doing what falls into my bucket and I'm not worried about things I don't know how to calculate or things I can't only predict why.
Speaker 1:I'm making pretty good money off of doing the things I do, so I just do it, oh man that is so spot on because it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I think like that too often. I often think I'm too reserved, but I just have this thought that you're saying. It's like, why risk it If this isn't my area of expertise, either betting or speaking? I'll listen to someone who I think clearly like if we're talking and you say something about basketball or baseball, I'm not going to be like you're wrong, I'm going to listen to you. And then I'm sure if I said something about golf, you'd probably be like, yeah, I'll probably take that for now, until I go into the weeds, and that's a great way to live life is it's less energy.
Speaker 2:Find people who know what they're talking about. Know what you don't know. Speak when you're right.
Speaker 1:Listen when you're wrong, like you know those are universal truths, and especially in sports betting. Man, that is a difference between thousands of dollars. Yeah, it's just having the right circle. You know how many times people just reach out to me saying hey, and even, just plus, even people, I've gotten some great ARBs, yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2:ARBs are plus people.
Speaker 1:I'm talking like 40 cents difference in ARBs Dude love it. You should go bet this, Like, of course.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do it, thank you.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you, bro. Yeah, I have no reserve reservations against anything I've. All I want to do is round myself with smart people, like people and share information, because that way we all make a profit and we can all find a great way to really capitalize on this opportunity that is Internet era, mobile app, sports. Yeah, that won't last forever. I keep saying this. It's not going to last forever. I know this is a thing that this is free money just on your phone.
Speaker 1:It's not going to last. It would just get from Gresh with you harder, and it is.
Speaker 2:It's like when people come to me and they'll be like betting quarter Kelly on the like underdog correlation slips Right, it's like stop it, you don't need to bet quarter Kelly there.
Speaker 1:Hey, I'm being my bank.
Speaker 2:When I found out price picks like you said, quarterbacks of football I ended up bank.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, exactly. You're not going to win yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like you're sitting there like what's quarter Kelly. It's like in that time you could have put out three more iterations of that lineup Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:It's like, and there's something like that's the example of knowing you're right, like you said, because in that situation you 100% know you have an edge. And this goes into Kelly and how you bet size and whatnot. But when you have a correlated parlay that books don't allow that, other sites are reducing the payout on that, the math is just so clear and clear cut and not really having to. It's not really like situational. You know you have an edge. When you know you have an edge, then you can bet closer to Kelly and this will be a whole another discussion on Kelly. But like it matters when it like sizing isn't controlled necessarily by the edge you have but it's by how confident you are. You do have an edge. What's the edge you know you have? What's the edge you think you have about 75% Confidence in or whatever it's like gauging that right and a correlated parlay. You know it's an edge, don't backwater.
Speaker 1:Kelly, don't. Poppies is Kelly. Yeah, please. There's no reason to bet Corey Kelly there, not even a second thought yeah, get the money in, get it in. Good, get it in now.
Speaker 2:Yes, you think I mean the fact that underdog let it go for so, so long, so many years, bro, I knew it got blew up a lot in the plus TV community, like in the past, like we'll say half a year it's been there for years right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was doing it last year, even before, of the props, you could do a fancy score when projects didn't have props. Years, years, years. I was. Yeah, I don't want to talk about multi accounts too much of shit, but let's do no price fix. I had a lot of partners. I was something like bad Exxon in the 80s. Let's just say a lot of partners, because do you get in me?
Speaker 2:We're other helping, helping people. We're what I call it is private tally. You're giving people information in their bed. You know they're. They're better accounts. That's fine.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I mean that that. I do think that figuring out when does hit the gas and when to kind of pull the brakes is something that comes with time. So I'm not like, by being like you, should smash these situations. I do you know, understand that people are very nervous when they first are gambling. The downside is they start getting overconfident, smashing bad situations. Right, all right, we're back again, let's do it. Um, anyway, we were talking. I think that was probably my favorite discussion around fair and uncertainty that I've had, yet that was awesome. I really Would encourage people who you know might be a little newer or even experience like re-listen to that. Think about how it applies to your process. This is important stuff. This is how leverage stuff that will Get you ready to take advantage of these big spots like J far and I were talking about. So give that listen back. Now I want to talk about beat the books. J far is a co-owner of beat the books discord. You want to just talk about how that started and yeah, it's actually a crazy story.
Speaker 1:So, as, as some people might know, I'm a co-partner with my good friend joke and we actually had a man through a madden Um okay, football game. We were both like competitive players. He was like he's like a champion in it Okay, that's it. Um, but I was like around 2018-2019 when I kind of stopped doing that, got focused in with my career and stuff. But, um, I actually did started betting really seriously around that time as well, mainly because my job took me to the Midwest or I can legally bet Very easy, you know. So I was doing my thing for a few years. I'm showing some good results, improve my process. And then one day on Twitter, I just looked and this is when, like, the whole fandal era was like a peak, like you're getting Best prices for everything, people are taking crazy stuff, and I saw a joke put a discord out. It was just a discord like Amazon friends, just like yeah, there's a live bet and some cool stuff.
Speaker 1:So I just joined up. It was called beat the books. Every time.
Speaker 2:Okay, wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the name, just it's stuck. So it was not even a hundred of us in the discord just posting plays and Eventually we realized that I mean, joke was very good. Obviously I was doing my thing and he just saw me just posting a bunch of winning bets, right and he's like dude like do you want to like just make a channel here?
Speaker 1:I'll make it all right short. Yeah, and we just kept it just as a community just for like I think it started in like January and up until August of that year it was completely just free, you could join, right, and it was cool. But then we just we had too many people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like maintain it as a free thing and I know no matter how you phrase something like that it sounds money grabbing but we have legitimately like 30k people, maybe more holy shit, free, discord, telling everything like it was almost impossible. Or to really like make it work. You know, dude that's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, 30k. It was incredible, it was a lot. It was a lot man. And so we did definitely decided that, hey, you know what? We see that some people are doing paid groups, but we're just gonna try this out. And the results spoke from themselves, dude. Even in the free tracking phase I was up like through the half a year like maybe a hundred something units, yeah, crazy. And just NBA and MLD joke was up like a hundred, like we are obviously showing very good results. And sure, the market was softer back then.
Speaker 1:It was easier sure, sure, I mean great result and and eventually, over time, we just started making more friends, meeting more very sharp people. People Wanted yeah everything and it kind of burnt itself very, very naturally yeah and that's what I like about it. The whole intention of beat the books was never to like make a make a paid group.
Speaker 2:It was just make the place.
Speaker 1:Right, track, track everything, make good plays. Yeah, that we can profit. And yeah, for people. And it was great. Yeah. And there's still people to this day, even when they didn't join them the paid one they will say, hey, I don't do the paid thing, but when it was free they were incredible.
Speaker 2:I still write their credible this and to this day.
Speaker 1:We track every single day. We have a spreadsheet that links directly to this board that shows in a bot like when I'm not for every single play, you know we're not missing anything. You can go back and check every day to see if it accumulates, it does, and We've. I mean just this year alone we have, like I think, plus 1,357 units between everybody. Obviously you don't tell everybody, so like we're not saying that you're gonna get that. Sure, I mean most people in this quarter are up at least 100. I did finish around 441.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was gonna say there's a big chunk of that. I finished 426.
Speaker 1:So I mean, yeah, if you, if you've been around like you, definitely I think it's worth it. It's weight and not only profit you can make off the bets but also information, because definitely now in a lot of the great angles over the past few years as well, you know, and there are certain slips that, like, for example, that baseball angle, it didn't new, like the whole thing of it, yeah, is that even if I placed it and posted it and people, yeah at it, it wouldn't really move. Sometimes it went up, it was, yeah, it was weird. So people oftentimes actually hit it with me like very right, very, very strong odds, right, and that is just the best feeling. You know, I thought incredible that day, not only because obviously I want a bunch of money, but other people one really life-changing money Off of, like an angle. I found, you know, crazy feeling, the best feeling an epic feeling.
Speaker 2:I really, yeah, I, and that's, that's the thing about your style, which I think lends itself well to doing what you do in the discord is you're trying to find angles, and the angles are different than a diva or a steam chased move which you could put out and two people might get you know, right. If you have a play that's, you know, a bit more original, it's gonna stick around for more people and very realistic it's a difficult.
Speaker 2:It's a difficult part of like I I I'm kind of in that that Early stage of what you guys had and beat the books. Like I built a discord literally just because I had gotten kicked off the prize picks reddit as I was like Posting I guess I had like built a little bit of following, posted winning plays for golf and I was kind of like trash talking them a little bit because they have like limited me as like you're so soft and just giving my place away.
Speaker 2:Everybody come, let's just all beat up whatever, get kicked off start the discord because you know, we had dealt, like in the reddit comments, like a little bit of a community and yeah, I mean right now it's it's we. When you said 30, like we're like 2300. It's, you know, it's free, I'm just hanging out there. The point is like we find, just like you, there's people who come in and posted their edges, who are like specialists in a sport. They're not doing the traditional, you know. You know on the screen plays. We get to tell them that's kind of what it's about. At 2300, it's hard to keep it free. At 30,000, you cannot keep it free.
Speaker 1:I promise so, if you're yeah, it's like. We really suck it out like as long as we could. If you really want to like analyze it. I know again, people will never see it that way, just because I want to turn it into. But man, dude, I was again. I was working too Right. I was working a very hard job while coming you had three jobs Basically basically do.
Speaker 1:What? Yeah, it was a lot and I'm glad a lot of people ate one of those, free for sure. Obviously, some of those people did transition to being paid. But even if you get it like, I'm just happy yeah, you know that a lot of people ate off that because it was a. It was a great era. I. I missed the era, like NBA, when the props are so fresh and you can just hit crazy things all the time, yeah, and this is what I always say about the people who have just I don't know why the all prop market just had been so shunned on man back in that day.
Speaker 1:Let's say, an NBA player, max prop was like plus 1200. You could take an alternate spread for that game. Let's say let's say LeBron James. Yeah 35 point thing for like plus 1200. You can take that prop, add Lakers plus like 40. Yeah, make it all spread.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the odds of triple.
Speaker 1:Why. You're like what you get plus 8000 all of a sudden. So not only the LeBron, lebron have to score 35 and Lakers still get blown out. Somehow for you to like not get that value, that's so for every one in like 10,000 times that happened, and then, sure, I guess it was bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but besides that, you got money.
Speaker 1:Yeah it was man, I was just kidding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's always fun shit. I do, I do. I do think it'll get tighter, but I also am optimistic, having been through poker and DFS and whatever that. You know if you're, if you're thinking the right way about risk and you know risk and betting and whatever, just whatever it is, there'll be spots. There's always going to be spots. It's important to you know. I think that's why I really enjoyed like our conversation now and before is like it's it's not as much about, like this is my slip, it's like how are you thinking about that?
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:And those lessons. I always say it's like those lessons. If you learn those lessons but you make five grand and someone else doesn't learn those lessons but they kind of make 10 K like kind of mindlessly betting you made more with five grand. That extra five grand over the course of your life will be like a million blocks or something like just you know, so anyone lucky?
Speaker 1:For sure it's not, it's not about us, never can be about a slip, because anyone can slip man. I could go right now and just bet everything all at once and post a slip on Twitter later. I'd say it's up and crazy but what would that do?
Speaker 1:You know it's about why, why did I pick this one specific slip? Why did I? Why did I picking the same exact idea down the line? And that way we prepare ourselves for, like, any type of market. You know, because, again, like having having one style that can get like patched or something I mean that's great for while it exists, but then what about when it's?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the existential dread is is is much higher. I think I said something.
Speaker 1:I said something messed up back when the EB War drop like full, full temperature is. I said no, I wish underdog would just get rid of correlation already. So I was messed up. I'll limit it. I didn't want that either, to be honest, but it was just kind of get that point across to like, yeah, so what are we going to do if the DFS books go away and we're back yeah. Yeah and yeah, it kind of did happen. I might have wished it in existence. I apologize.
Speaker 2:I think, I think underdog was actually trying to not go bankrupt.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, not to, because they definitely were just handing money away.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd love to have sat in on one of those investor meetings.
Speaker 1:He's paying a fly on the wall in those meetings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you lost three million dollars on the British open. Yeah, that would have been too fun.
Speaker 1:And I do, I do actually like underdog.
Speaker 2:I appreciate they fought the good fight for so long trying not to play with one. They really did. They have good hearts they really.
Speaker 1:as far as the DFS books go, they let you bet.
Speaker 2:They let you get in there and I give my offer yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Like I feel like max two thousands, yeah, yeah that's right, I was playing.
Speaker 2:I was tailing somebody in NBA doing like 2000 a pop, having no clue what I was doing, but I knew that the guy was was good and it was great Money off it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and they were like so, when it comes to beat the books, man, that's kind of our whole thing is that we're very focused on the how as to why we're betting something. We're definitely focused on transparency and track. Yes, should be a bare minimum and it's really about, you know, like the long term thing, and that's sometimes that's tough for, like, let's say, a very average person if you're paying a monthly thing and the return isn't necessarily guaranteed.
Speaker 1:I can never sit here and tell you that for a month, right now, that I would. Yeah, I mean it's likely, but right. And that's you like when I'm at the very top and very anxious, like yelling at me from the bottom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I might just play yeah, you gotta keep these places in business.
Speaker 1:I think, hey, exactly. But I think getting the real value is getting. What we're talking about right here is understanding the angle of how you're going to make money over time from these guys and dude. If you leave us and you feel like you could do it on your own, great, I don't. I don't prefer that. Yeah, I don't prefer that, because you just feel like you do it on your own. You don't even mean that's good, great, so it's something from it and you can use that and now you can be a soldier on your own, dude awesome, because, again, this opportunity is so unprecedented. I keep, I keep saying this because I really want to hammer it down. Yes, is that throughout history, throughout financial history? Yeah, yeah, I've not really been at site like this. Like, yeah, there's been two groundbreaking things in like the past decade as crypto and sports betting that have actually just been completely groundbreaking, and not cryptos, I mean, I don't know how you feel about that.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm out of multiplier.
Speaker 1:I did that, but sports betting is was out of crux for a long time when I was with people hey, get in on this, you can get a lot of money, yeah, and you know, and that's kind of why I made that purchasing link post. I felt like a lot of people got help in that.
Speaker 2:The episode's too hot. This is what I just told Jay far the cameras, this is unprecedented heat levels. The cameras flamed up four times now. But yeah, I've wanted, I want to kind of wrap it up and, you know, give, give you a big thank you, because we were just actually I just told Jay far I left the room during one of the camera breaks and I was told my wife, I was like this is my favorite one yet, this is the best one yet and I really, I really do believe it and I love all my my past guests.
Speaker 2:But I have enjoyed where this conversation went and I think it'll be very useful for people who are listening who might be on that precipice of their top down. They've gotten the dvaging down. They've built the confidence of winning at books. You know they've gotten the reps, they know the books can be beaten and I get this in my DMs all the time. But like what's next? And I think this episode was the what's next, at least the first step into what's next that I've done on this podcast. So I think you're going to help a lot of the people who are actually like in the audience as of right now, because my audience, from what I've seen is mostly people kind of looking to make that that jump.
Speaker 1:So thank you, you know for sure and do that I had a blast and I'll wrap up with saying this First of all, thank you for all the great content you're providing. I definitely is a great mixture of just to make a basic top down and bottom up, and I think that's again what we're striving for. And one last thing I would say is I really applaud you because I tend to get this energy from a lot of really good sports betters.
Speaker 1:They want to keep everything close to the chest and I get it because you know you don't want your money making ways to be patched, but I have very, very high respect for people who understand that and still want to share knowledge because in my, in my head, it's an inevitability for people to get better at this. There's too much to allow nowadays to really want to gate keep and I really try my best and not do that and I really applaud you for also sharing out and doing the good thing.
Speaker 2:Dude, I appreciate it and I will say, like I was that person before you know, I was pretty private through my gambling career and the most fun part of my gambling career has been more public starting the discord, helping people out, seeing other people when sweating, that's together Like if you haven't done it yet, try it. It's really fun, it's really fun.
Speaker 1:You can't beat it. It's worth pounds more than half of it. It's like you said for sure.
Speaker 2:Dude, 100%. And J-Far, we're going to be getting. You know he put he put a long form piece out. I believe it was yesterday, a wonderful tweet. I retweeted it. If you're not following J-Far, you know, go follow him and read it on his timeline. But you know, I know that you're making a push to do some more long format. I can't wait to show the. You know the tables are turned and you know I might be on your channel or we're talking on your platform.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm in, you know, maybe we do it live.
Speaker 2:You know we're pretty, you know we're pretty close and I don't know. Stay tuned, for you know some some crazy 2024 stuff I would love to do and see. You know, whatever you get up to, I know it's going to be good. So all of J-Far's links are going to be in the show notes, so that's going to be his Twitter, and then beat the books and anything else. You know that you've got going on, we'll throw in there and thank you again. Thanks everyone for listening. I hope that you enjoyed this as much as I did, because you know, to the, to the audience, because this was a total banger and I'm going to, I'm going to re-listen to it myself, because I think that the amount of information here, the amount of help, it's just like unprecedented, I think, for this, for this show. So thank you again, thanks everyone for watching and we will see you on the next episode.