Canadian Salad
A No-Nonsense Podcast On Culture And Immigration
Canadian Salad
The Double Standard Olympics: Race and Rage Edition
In this honest and eye-opening conversation, Andrea and Hostion unpack why white aggression is so often excused, justified, or even framed as heroic — while Black, Indigenous, and racialized anger is quickly vilified, policed, or labeled “dangerous.”
Drawing on history, psychology, media patterns, and personal stories, the hosts explore how narrative power shapes who is viewed as human, who is viewed as a threat, and how bias quietly shapes everyday interactions. They also discuss the real-world consequences of these double standards, from policing to protests to family dynamics, and offer powerful reflections on what each of us can do to disrupt this narrative in ourselves and our communities.
Lighthearted moments, vulnerable storytelling, and sharp cultural insight all come together in a conversation you won’t be able to un-hear.
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SPEAKER_03:Welcome to Canadian Salad, a fun, factual, and friendly podcast about culture and integration in Canada.
SPEAKER_00:I'm one of your hosts, I'm Ho Chen Ho from China, currently living in unceded territory of Musqueams Wanamens to Newatu Nations.
SPEAKER_03:And I'm Andrea McCoy, an immigrant from the United States, broadcasting you from the unceded traditional territory of the Wakungan people, the Song Lizon's final First Nations.
SPEAKER_00:And you're listening to Canadian Silver.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome back, everyone, and welcome back to Hocean.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god, thank you.
SPEAKER_03:My love, I've missed you so much. People have to listen to my voice.
SPEAKER_00:I know. I mean, it's the lucky day. They can they don't have to listen to my voice for once.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00:They need a little escape little break from me, and now everyone missing miss me even more.
SPEAKER_03:They do. They do. We I got quite a few emails saying, like, where's Hoshan? I'm so tired of listening to the white lady. Stop. No, but it was good. We did some fun interviews and some fun topics, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Which I still have to listen to it. I was away, so I didn't have time. I was having too much fun, so I didn't listen to it. Where were you? I was in Taiwan and Japan. I was two weeks each country and to like explore the cities.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, one word to describe your trip. Go.
SPEAKER_00:Ooh, chaotic.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that's which is a good way. In a good way. In a good way. Okay, good chaos. Well, I'm glad you're back. And I'm glad you've prepped for this episode. And I'm really excited to hear what you've discovered. What are we gonna talk about, Hoshin?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, today's not gonna talk about my travel. As much as I want to. Make it all about me. But today it's not really about kinda about me too. But also about you.
SPEAKER_03:Ooh, about me as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Today we are gonna explore how white people's aggression is often framed as acceptable or even understandable. While aggression by people of color gets a villain vied. This word is new to me.
SPEAKER_03:It is, it's vilified, yeah. Where people are made into a villain. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And we explore media portrays, cultural narratives, real-world consequences. And we, you know, it's important for us to explore this kind of topic, especially nowadays with so many protests going on and what for Palestinian, for for Congo, even like protests uh in general for equality of a woman's rights, for LGBTQ rights, you know, because I we did it was just in Taiwan for Prior as well, which is a protest, right? Um so I think this topic is always important, as I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03:It is, it is. And I don't think we I know there's a lot of unconscious bias when it comes to people seeing people who have causes that they're protesting for, and they normalize there's been white supremacy, you know, protests. Um and I think it was the while ago they had the immigrants, the anti-immigrant protest here in Canada. And people are just like, oh, cool, you know, the trucker convoy, oh, okay. And then when it comes to other types of causes that are specifically for people of color, more marginalized groups, it's a very different perception that people have. They come against it. And we're I'm really excited to explore this because the hypocrisy is really glaring and it's really loud to me and to you, obviously, but not to a lot of people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I agree, I agree. And before we get into it, let's have you witnessed such double standard in real life or experience it?
SPEAKER_03:I grew up with it for sure. My so my dad doesn't listen to the podcast, he hasn't talked to me in a while. We don't see eye to eye on basic human rights and dignity. But growing up, there was always this idea that, well, we should own a gun. It's our right to own guns. And I remember one time I'm driving with my dad in the car and I was like, well, what about when like black people own guns? And he's like, they shouldn't own guns. Like it he went into this conversation and in a bit of a rant why it's more dangerous for black people to own guns and why they don't know they're not responsible with them, that black people with guns are gangs, and just had a very double standard in that aspect. And so, yeah, I definitely grew up with it. It didn't make sense to me because I was like, but it's a gun, so you both have it. You know what I mean? There's no diff I don't see who's more dangerous, but that was the narrative that he had and he was sharing with me, and that he had been passed down to from his parents who were very racist. And my dad is racist, and I have racism in me, but it was that narrative definitely was loud and clear and growing. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I also have witnessed actually I know.
SPEAKER_03:It's oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, is your dad also sometimes feel like I don't know whether I should like how mine on it, honestly.
SPEAKER_03:You can.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, based on what I know about your dad and the stories you told me about your dad, I'm not really surprised, honestly. Yeah, but and always the more difficult one is your you know, close ones.
SPEAKER_03:Family, I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I mean, like my dad's homophobic and there's nothing I can do about it. You know, I also don't have any contact with him, and and he's sometimes what it is. Yeah. I feel like if they're just like a normal stranger, like another man out in the street, I probably care less. But because he's my dad, somebody it just hurts a little bit deeper.
SPEAKER_03:It does. It hurts deeper, and it is not on us, or it will never be us that changes their mind or convinces them another way. It'll have to be a complete stranger or someone that they respect because they don't respect us.
SPEAKER_00:They don't see you as peers, or they don't respect or believe that you know anything better than them.
SPEAKER_03:Right. That your experiences have amounted to nothing. And who cares if our exceeding in these areas and you've, you know, done really well in your career. No, you're still a kid. It doesn't matter. And your opinion doesn't matter. Yeah. How about you though? Did you have real life?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, actually, just this past weekend.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, this past weekend.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was good because I was in Edmonton for a ball for my kids, for my for house kids in in Edmonton. So we finished the ball, so we have a brunch the next day, and of course, like all the kids together were really happy. So we were a bit loud, I have to say. Yeah. We were a bit loud because a lot of us. Yeah. And then we were happy having seen each other for so long. We were just kind of uh celebrating the we had a successful event. So we were just a bit loud, and then this this old white man came to us and because the too loud disturbing everyone, you should stop. I was like, oh, okay. Okay. He of course was really unhappy as a white old man, unhappy about what we're doing. And okay, we got the note, and then when we finished my meal, about to leave. But before we we left, there's another group of young kids, like probably, I don't know, young 20s, white ladies came in. They were also really loud. They are having their fun time, whatever. But we noticed that no one asked them to stop. Yeah, yes, Mustafa, no one disturbed them. But when we, a bunch of POCs and queer people were disturbing others, then we got stopped immediately. I know it's not really violence. I know we're trying to like talk about aggression in this topic.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but it is an aggression, it is a microaggression. Like it is like he he had anger in his voice. He came and he aggressively whatever idea of peace. Like his, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. Like he thinks we disturb the peace of the restaurant. In some sense, yes, we are. I'm not gonna paint a better stroke or whatever. We were a bit loud and because we're celebrating with so many of us, and but he that aggression is everywhere and call for, especially when there's another group of white people who being also a bit loud, and he didn't stop them, or no one else stopped them, but we somehow become the target. So I think that kind of double stand always happens through my life, and it just happened to it just literally last weekend.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and that's a that's this is like the beginnings of a the Karen that you know a little bit, and um yeah, but anyway, we'll get into our episode. But yes, that is I'm sorry that happened, but that is exactly you're exactly it happens all the time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it happens we did all the time. Sometimes just like how micro it is, I feel like. But I think there's enough stories like on the news or even in history that tells us that a lot of time it's really not micro, it's very obvious. So we're gonna dive into this kind of like double standard, like we look into from the past to now and why and what what can we do about it. Right. And first, we let's talk about history. I think where do we begin? I want to begin as this American Revolution first. Like in Western culture, especially in North America, as we have like long romanticized white violence. The American Revolution um is to like to cowboy myth or like war films, these acts are remembered as courageous or necessary while the resistance of the cowboy. Yeah, exactly. But while the resistance of the colonized or racialized people, from like slaves, revolts, or to indigenous uprising, they're usually branded as like savage or the savagers trying to fight back. But these Westerners, I'm trying to civilize them or freedom. These kind of double standards of violence already. And this kind of double standard is not just about who fought, but it's also about who wrote the story after. Yes, those who control the narrative also control morality, obviously. Yes, and psychologists called this the ultimate attribution error. We excuse aggression from people like us um as situational, yes, the in-group. If people are interested in what specifically what ultimate uh attribution error means, I suggest everyone to Google a little bit. It's like a psychology term. It talks about in-group and out-group, how even though the same behavior, but if it's happened in the in-group, it's somehow it's sympathized and understood. Uh, but if it's uh done by the outgroup, there's somehow it's villainized. Correct. Yeah. So because of this ultimate attribution error, we excuse aggression from people like us as in the in-group as situational. But label aggression from others as reflection of their character.
SPEAKER_03:True. Yeah. It's like this is justified, but then when someone else does it who's not in your in-group, it's oh character flaw, it's that they're evil, they're bad, they're wrong, they're whatever kind of names we give them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because white people control the narrative and something writes the history, right? So white people's as an in-group, aggression happens in this in-group usually since oh, we do that because we were forced to do so, and it's not who we are, it's just situational. And but if but if the outgroup, which is for example, indigenous or slaves, do it, oh, they are just aggressive people, they're just violent people. That's why they love to do this. For them, it's not a situational.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:And then that kind of bias becomes like a narrative throughout history.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Because the because white people get to write history and control the narrative.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And hence they control the morality of it.
SPEAKER_03:I love that line. I actually wrote it down because I'm teaching an unconscious bias workshop, and that line is going in. And I will quote you those who control the narrative often always control morality.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, please quote me.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, I will. Absolutely. Good line. But it's true, and that's and that's actually the Second Amendment in the United States was because people like enslaved people far outnumbered white colonizers. And so this was the white man's way to legalize, quote unquote, using a gun because there were revolts. There were people resisting, there were people taking matters into their own hands and uprising, rebelling, revolutionizing their freedom because they were oppressed. And in order to suppress that and control that, we made it a law that you could own a gun in order to control your property, your the people that you had enslaved. So it's it's legal. So it's fine, it's justified.
SPEAKER_00:It's just for the you because it is the ink group.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:That's why it's justified, yes. But that's like the history, historical context of it. And in modern day, like especially nowadays, in our screens, that we things that we consume in our screens every day, white violence is often complex and sometimes even cinematic. For example, like Fight Club or like the Joker, like even the Joker is so violent, kills so many people. But then the Joker is there's a backstory of Joker. You understood, you sympathize with a joker. Oh, he was hurt, he was being uh humiliated and bullied by society, abuse violence is understood. So we actually sympathize with his violin. So his white violence is not something to look down upon. So that's another great example. Yeah, but when people of color fight, the tone shifts, it's dangerous, it's chaos. Studies of media patterns show that white aggression well aggressors are portrayed often as individuals. So when white aggressor does anything aggressive, it's like individual cases based on, you know, and their backstory collection.
SPEAKER_03:Not the entire white white. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:You know, their name, they have the character to them, you know, there is a lot of reasoning. But then when black or brown people like have aggressive behavior, they represent as the community, or that's just the culture, and that's how a lot of media connect different narratives towards aggression. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I heard a black gentleman being interviewed and he was saying, You don't understand if I mess up, if I make one mistake, like I bear the weight of the entire population of black men. Like that is what I carry because that's what has been sh given to me by society. But if someone else, maybe a white man, does something, he's individually held accountable and he doesn't actually taint or actually impact the reputation of every other white man.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:The states have so many case studies of this. Like you would see any white shooter, it's like, oh, he was troubled, he was heavily influenced by this and that. But anytime the shooter is a person of color, it's just like no one can.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, they're just like, yeah, they don't give them a backstory.
SPEAKER_03:They go to jail, lock them up, they don't humanize them. They're just like, of course they would. They default to these biases and these tropes and these villainization of people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which strengthens this idea that oh, if you if you are white people, then you are an individual. Then you you if you are not white, then you are just represents the whole community and just how the culture is. I don't know whether you have heard of the term angry black woman. I have heard many of my stroke is awful. Yeah, but black friends who are women, that I think a lot of black women have this fear that they are gonna brand it as this angry black woman. That's why a lot of them cannot be angry. They always often have to hold themselves in such standard that they can't constrain. Yeah, they can't they hate because they hate or worry that because maybe they want outburst, they're gonna be branded at this uh angry black woman, or people are gonna see that as the whole black people that are gonna contribute back to the whole community.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and it costs them so much a lot of mental gymnastics, so much retribution if you at all show any display of anything other than Pollyanna, happy white girl.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Yeah, which is again that's double center, it's not fair and it's not right. That's not equality, obviously. To continue the conversation, there's a study in 1998, a study of a lot of music videos, and this study found that black men were often shown as aggressor far more often than white men, which also reinforcing the stereotypes of innate danger when you see a black man. Um and there's also a paper in 2020 analyzed hundreds of film scripts, finding white aggressors were more often frames methodically, which again is uh another point that we just discussed. Right to summarize in media when white people fight, we see humanity, but when others fight, we see villains. That's what the media are trying to like portray and tell us. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:That historical narrative that is embedded in every part of our culture and society.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, so that's something we always have to be aware of now that we know that's what it is, which we're gonna discuss later, too. And in real life, too, it's not just like in me, like movies and video, but in real life news, I have things that happen, there's also a lot of these examples like protest. There's another real life example. Oh my gosh. When the white rioters stormed the capital in 2021, many were described as misled patriots. Yes, or patriots, they still call patriots. Yes, it's crazy. But when black life matter protests protesters march against police violence, their anger is met with like tear gas or curfews.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like they are not called patriots, they're not called protectors, they're not. They call many other names that are not great.
SPEAKER_03:Even when I think it was during around the Black Lives Matter movement, I forget his first name, but Kaepernick. I don't know if you he's a black football player in the states, I forget which team, obviously, because I'm not a football fan. However, would to show solidarity in the Black Lives Movement during the national anthem, he would take a knee. And this became like a huge movement within NFL. But the response from people, the fact that this individual, a black man, was taking a knee as opposed to standing with this heart of it, like he was villainized, he was dehumanized, that he was called unpatriotic. When in fact, taking a knee is still a respectful gesture within when when you are doing the national anthem. He didn't hit anyone, he wasn't ranting and like waving a gun in the air, like he didn't merit any of this dehumanization. All he did was take a knee. And just the response was so there was so much vitriol, so much. But it's the same with even in Canada, like the trucker convoys, or even more recently, there was a I forget the name of the group, but there was a bunch of men, white men in white masks protesting CBC with a big sign that says CBC hates white people, and there was no uh RCMP around. They were able to walk through no problem. But when it comes to Palestinian protests, or not even it's not even a it's literally we're just having a gathering and we're talking about the injustice of Palestinian people. Like we're not saying burn down a media station. We're not but so many of those protests in Canada have been met with violence from the RCMP, from uh universities, from uh students. It is the it's the dichotomy and the hypocrisy and the lack of consistency. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Anyway, and also it's not just that there's also like a psychologist has framed it as well. Like there's a psychologist called P a Sickner, a spickner. Okay, I uh butcher in his name. We'll put the link in our show notes.
SPEAKER_03:Y'all can read it for yourselves. This man knows five languages, so you're welcome. My gosh. It's okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but it's like a it's like a social kind of psychology that when audience perceive white violence, we rarely racialize it. It's like a psychology, even us, like we too. True, we rate rarely racialize white community violence. But when violence involving black people, it's very common for us psychologically frame it as a group behavior, yeah. As a race thing rather than an individual thing. And that we were talking to talk up more about actually after, because there's a lot also like please report a lot of like evidence to prove that as well, and how, of course, how we can compact that as well, obviously. So I'm just saying like all of this are very not isolated perceptions about why why people why violence always gets the past and and other people gets to be getting villainized, uh villainized because they're not white. Now there were so many examples. I think it's also important for us to know like how this comes to be, how this kind of psychology comes to be, even this for a peace, why we see white people as violent as individual but not others. And first, I want to get into another psychologist. His name is Robin D'Angelo. He writes that white people are often socially protected by an assumption of innocence. It's called whiteness as innocence. She uh oh, sorry, it's a psychologist, she calls it white fragility. When white people show rage, it's treated as a temporary loss of control, not a sign of danger. Black and brown people's anger, meanwhile, is racialized, is interpreted as inherent violence or discord or disorder. That's why a white shooter is troubled while a black or brown suspect is radical.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That is the difference. I want to also add on that is like this kind of dynamic is reinforced by decades of media framing, according to a research by Media Smart Canada. Journalists often individualize individualize white perpetrators, but racialized, not white ones.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And they're framing that their community as a complicit to it. Exactly. So that's one of major reasons.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:They're kind of preconception.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, it is. It I could go into the religious component of whiteness being innocence, like white women should be virgins before they got married back in the day. But it's okay to rape and to do other things to women of color because they're not innocent. And that I grew up with a purity culture in my religious background. But even outside of religious circles, there is this idea that if a white woman cries, oh, we should or if a white woman goes missing, all of the authorities, everyone is out there searching for her. But when it's indigenous, which go missing? So I don't know, there's not much we can do. Right? That that there the dichotomy and the uh the disparity of the response is so far uh also because part of it is because white people usually control the narrative too, right? Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So like they could get to they write the story, they write, they decide what is important, what is not important.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:They control historically, even nowadays too, like they operate the majority of the institutions that produce stories, journalism, film, education, politics, they get to control how aggression is contextualized. Yeah. When white men rage, they often tell get to tell their own stories what is the reason of their rage.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:But when people of color rage, they rarely get the agency to tell the story. That's why often their anger gets to seen as like a group thing, because they don't get the chance to individualize or even contextualize their story behind their rage. So that's another thing. And the last thing I also want to discuss is the institutional bias that is built into rage or like the consequence of rage. Like the justice systems that is amplifying these biases. Research on sentencing disparities shows that black defendants accused of violent crimes receive a longer sentence than white defendants for similar offenses. Which I don't think a lot of us surprise, honestly. I think we all know that as well. But that is another example of how institution have like reinforced this bias, even the consequences of it. Yes. Right, right.
SPEAKER_03:Well, they're not human, they've never been human. Like even in the Canadian context, when we talked about the Indian Act, indigenous people were not even considered a full human. True. So if you start there and you think that we've gotten better, you think that just disappeared and that just went nowhere. Think again. Like it's a good idea. Think again, indeed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's another, yeah. I agree. I think it's the again, because who writes these policies and who controls the justice system? White people. And again, they control the narrative, right? They see white people as not, or they see black people are not fully human.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So they get the control that oh, they should get longer sentences. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah. And even in police training studies, like also reviews that racialized threat perceptions, officers are faster to associate black faces with danger.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. There's literally studies.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Even in schools, yeah. Black boys versus white boys are already there's been studies on that. How teachers will they uh anyway, they just see black little boys as threats, as aggressive, uh all these tropes more than little white boys. Like it's in the school system.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. And like this kind of institutional biases, of course, evalidates the cultural ones, like the media ones, for example. And if society can't constantly sees why aggression as forgivable, the law eventually follows suit, right? Yes, because the media keeps telling you why violence is forgivable, it's understood, it's understandable. That's why the law eventually also follows that narrative. Yeah, that's why sentencing, policing, that same narrative. That's why we still live in a society that that's every level of it, from social, from media to law, has the same narrative. We need to break that institutional bias. That's where we should start. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. There's so many examples. I was just thinking of Nelson Mandela, who for a really long time was labeled as a terrorist. James Baldwin was also labeled as a terrorist. Martin Luther King, like there's so many people. And even now we look at the leader of Israel who is of European descent and gets away with anything that they do to Palestinian people who are mostly brown. It it doesn't fall short at the Canadian border or the the Western border. It is I have a black friend, she said anti-blackness is the one thing that unites the world. And she's right.
SPEAKER_00:Again, the winner of Rice history, Rice story. Who gets to control the story, who gets to call people names? Even the terrorists, Hitler is a terrorist. But if Hitler wins the wall war, he won't be.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. Exactly. And I think Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:And I think a lot of uh all the colonizers, I would say they're all terrorists, but because they won the war, they get to tell call the indigenous the terrorists, or indigenous the uncivilized. They get to call everyone else out of names because they won the war.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Who wins the war? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:We're the heroes for stopping Hitler. But what we did in Hiroshima. We're still heroes. Like that was, I'm now I'm saying the name wrong, but um, but yeah, it erases any type of quote unquote wrong or it justifies any kind of other violence because we save the day. We're like you said, we write the narratives, we hold the morality.
SPEAKER_00:We write the narrative. Exactly. Yeah. We hold the morality, exactly. So the last part of this podcast, I would, as we often do, now that we know so many of this, from historical historical psychology.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Like we learn a lot of terms, blah blah blah. And now more most important part is now that we know. Of this, what can we do about it? What is the reflection? What is the core to action? Of course, it's not something that it can change in the flip of a finger. It's gonna take forever for cultures to change, for narrative to be rewritten. But we all of us have to do our part in every day. Now, especially, for example, we need to notice media narratives. Now that we know a lot of media, how their stories is changing our narrative, we need to be very careful when we see violence on screen. We have to think about who is the actor, what is his race, class, gender affecting the aggression that is portrayed or justified? Who tells the story? Is it for white people or is it for other people? How is this violent portrayed and what is the morality of this violent?
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:We need to notify this and think about it. And we need to question our assumptions when we see white people fight, when we see black people fight. Do we see the motive? Do we see individuality behind these fights? Do we see the whole story? And then we also need to advocate.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We need to support policies and community work that recognizes that aggression is not a monolith. Yeah. That man in community resists and struggle and fight for justice. And their violence and anger must be understood in context, not dismissed. Or punished, yes. So then when we like even see quote-unquote angry black women in a community or in just out there, I think now more than ever, we need to have more sympathy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:To also understand that this behavior of one black woman, it does not count as the whole black community. And we also need to have this understanding that oh, she's angry. What is her where is her anger coming from? We need to sympathize with that anger. Keep the sympathy, uh, empathize, yeah, empathize, the anger, as much as the there's empath empathy that we give to white people.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly. And valid validate, validate people's perspective rather than dismiss them. That we're validating when communities come forward and say that indigenous women and children uh have a much higher rate of disappearing, and what is our country and laws doing about it? Like we're not validating it. We're ignoring it, we're not validating the struggle or even just old growth forestry protests, like people who are literally just standing there and they're met with dogs and they're met with guns and brute force. And why is it that is our response? Even if tie it back to like this gentleman that told you to be quiet, while that was just that was a conversation, there was still this inherited idea that these white people over here are innocent, you are not, and I'm gonna do what I can to punish or at least to try to control that which I think is not part of my in-group and that which is not acceptable. That is the undercurrent, and that's where violence comes from. That's where the violence comes from. If it's already there, he may not have been violent, but that doesn't mean that that thread of perspective and that posture isn't already living within his mind and his biases and the way that he lives and interacts with people. So advocating, calling it out, wait a minute, excuse me, sir, and this is like a cult for white people too, because we have that power and privilege, we can call that out, so we need to. We have nothing to lose. Nothing. Honestly, nothing. That's made.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. No, I agree, I agree. I think like I personally also have to say when I when I was like propping this podcast, I think of a woman, an indigenous woman that I often think of. Because I'm not really close with her, but in the interactions I had with her, she is a very angry woman. She a lot of interaction I had with her, she had this kind of aggressive personality, just say that. And I often see it, ooh, it prevents me from understand her because she has so much anger in her. And then now that especially after popping this podcast, I suddenly think of her and then I was just like was like, you know what? Maybe I should give her like I should have understood her a bit more, give her more sympathy rather than feel like reluctant to get to know her because she is an indigenous trans woman. She had a lot to be angry about.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Rather than me here sitting, oh, I don't want to be close to her because I don't want to, she's too aggressive for me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I should give her more un sympathy, empathy, and understanding that she really has a lot to be angry about this world about how she is how she moved in this society as an indigenous trans woman.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I feel like after knowing all of this, prepping this podcast, it definitely gave me a new perspective of how I see her.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks for sharing that Hoshan and for being vulnerable and the journey that I think many of us are on. And I think it's hard for us to admit that. It's hard for us to like reconcile, oh, actually, I had this unconscious bias and this perspective. We all do. We all do. We all do. It's very natural, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like I said, like in a research, one of the research I cite, the psychologist P. Uh Spickner said it so, like, you know, all of us, generally all of us, yeah, rarely racialize white violence. Yeah. But when it's involved other people, we usually racialize them and see them as a behavior of a group rather than an individual. And I am definitely part of that. And I also want to be a better person, and I also feel like now that I know this, I need to be more cautious of my behavior.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And my my my conscious bias when I think about things.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And that's huge. That's it, and it's a model for us. It's a reminder that like we're all capable of doing better and changing. And I think I'm in researching this unconscious bias, like the limbic system, that your brain, it has elasticity in it to actually change, to actually, you know, look at things differently and say, Oh, I've been actually looking at it this way. I need to look at it another way. Because the brain is always making shortcuts in order to survive. It may not have the full story, so it fills in the gap. And it's based on how anyway, I won't get into it. But honest to say, we have the capacity and appreciate your genuine, you know, sharing that. And it's humbling for me. Like I look up to you in that way, and I hope that resonates with listeners as well, um, to know that this is all of our responsibility, no matter what shade of melanin we have, like this is something that we all um are capable of doing and did doing better. So thank you, Hoshan, for doing all of this and presenting all this really good information. I learned a lot, it affirmed a lot of the things that you hear in pockets, but then when you have it like full, you start like you just can't unsee it once you start seeing it.
SPEAKER_00:I know. Once you're talking about it. And that's good.
SPEAKER_03:That's good. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it kind of gives you context why it's happen happened this way. And I often I especially through this, I definitely one thing I take away, except the thing I just mentioned. The other thing I want to take, I definitely take takes with me is that the how people who control the narrative guest to be the good guy. I think that we affirm that kind of idea for me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and even the violence gets to get a pass because they control the narrative.
SPEAKER_03:It's so yeah, exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now should we get into our podcast?
SPEAKER_03:Joining us today.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you for joining us today. And we often end our podcast with a pod quiz, which neither of us know the question or the answer, and then yeah, see whether we know about see how much we know about Canada or about this topic. Yeah, how about this topic, exactly? Can't so Andrea, do you want to go first?
SPEAKER_03:Sure, I would love to go first. So my question is what demographic in the world owns the most guns? That's the question. I know it's funny because I think you know the answer.
SPEAKER_00:America, uh the United States.
SPEAKER_03:Demographic of people.
SPEAKER_00:Demographic? White people, like racial race, yeah. Like white men.
SPEAKER_03:Is that your final answer?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Ding ding, you are correct. White men are the largest group of gun owners, about 48% of them. And of course, this is key demographics out of the states. There's no actual research globally to, or even not many, and even in Canada, it's very low. But I would even, I would be safe to bet that like most people in Canada who own guns are typically rural white men. But in the states, 48% own a gun. And this is compared to about a quarter of white women and non-white men, 24%. So 24% of non-white men actually own a gun. And uh yeah, and of course, it is typically within rural areas have the highest rate of gun ownership. So there you go. But yes, so I don't know who is if we're owning lots of guns, who is the most more violent? I don't I don't anyway. All right, your turn.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. My question is does a violence there's a lot of assumptions of like violent game led to a lot of violence, but my question is specific to youth. Does violent game led to more youth violence? Ooh, I'm a yes or no question.
SPEAKER_03:Ooh, I'm gonna say no.
SPEAKER_00:You don't think violent games led to more youth violence?
SPEAKER_01:No. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, actually, yeah, you're correct. Yes. Ding ding! We're both getting right on today. Yeah, yes, yes. So there's a lot of assumption out there that people are getting more and more violent because of like, oh, there's a lot of violent games out there, and the teaching is special our youth to be violent. But actually, that's not true. There's a uh report actually published by Statistics Canada January 23, 2025, so this year actually. Wow. The data is from 2002 to 2023, so it's almost 20 years of study that youth crime actually violent crime actually decreased in general while violent game has skyrocketed. Increased. Interesting. So more violent game were consumed while the youth violent crime has decreased. Yes. So there is no correlation of good job, parents.
SPEAKER_03:I and I think that's why I said no, because I think a lot of what children end up doing is a result of the way they're parented and the narratives that the parents gave. And I mean, Lincoln all the time is he's just a sponge, and he will make these conclusions based off things he's heard me say, and I'm just like, wow, that's yes, you're correct, you know. So yeah, yeah, that's but that's cool. It's good to know. I mean, not that I'm gonna have him watch here's a violent game, son. You won't be violent because I think violence, that's oh, that's a whole other thing. We've normalized violence on the screen and in games so much.
SPEAKER_00:We do normalize a lot of violence in this world. Yeah, that's something that I think, yeah, it just like very fun somehow very normal for us to see people killing another person on screen, on games, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and so then we can nominate when it actually happens, you know. And yeah, I mean, there's yeah, that's another episode, folks. But thank you so much, Hocean. I'm so glad to have you back. You are the half that completes the whole. And if you are new to us, please leave us a review. You can find us on all major platforms where our podcasts are broadcasted. You can also find us on social media. Sometimes we do some fun things. I haven't been doing a lot of fun things because I've been busy doing stuff, but we are on TikTok, Blue Sky, Instagram, and yeah, would love to hear from you what you think of this episode. Hello at CanadianSala.ca. And that is our website where you can actually find all of our juicy resources. We can find our beautiful mugs on those on that website as well, i.e., our faces, not like we don't sell merch yet. If we get more listeners, if you want to. Yes, exactly. You could. So that's canadian salad.ca. So we'll talk to you again next week and have a wonderful week.
SPEAKER_00:Have a wonderful week. Bye. Okay, bye.
SPEAKER_02:Canadian Salad is written and produced in British Columbia, Canada by Ho Chen Ho and Andrea McCoy. Theme music is by Never Avet Young from Pixabay.
SPEAKER_03:This has been the good drinking production.
