MEDIASCAPE: Insights From Digital Changemakers
Join hosts Joseph Itaya and Anika Jackson as they dive into conversations with leaders and changemakers shaping the future of digital media. Each episode explores the frontier of multimedia, artificial intelligence, marketing, branding, and communication, spotlighting how emerging digital trends and technologies are transforming industries across the globe.
MEDIASCAPE is proudly sponsored by USC Annenberg’s Master of Science in Digital Media Management (MSDMM) program. This online master’s program is designed to prepare practitioners to understand the evolving media landscape, make data-driven and ethical decisions, and build a more equitable future by leading diverse teams with the technical, artistic, analytical, and production skills needed to create engaging content and technologies for the global marketplace. Learn more or apply today at https://dmm.usc.edu.
MEDIASCAPE: Insights From Digital Changemakers
From Tennis Courts to Virtual Schools: Kirk Spahn on Innovation in Education
Ever wondered how virtual education can transform from mundane to magical? In this episode, we promise you'll gain exclusive insights from Kirk Spahn, a fourth-generation educator whose journey spans competitive junior tennis, an influential stint at Dartmouth College, and pioneering work in Europe with School-Master.net. As the founder of ICL Academy, Kirk reveals how virtual education has evolved, drawing parallels to the impactful rise of e-commerce, and shares how inspiration from visionaries like Steve Jobs has shaped today's personalized and engaging online learning environments.
Discover the power of multimedia in education as Kirk explains how real-world scenarios and diverse learning styles can make lessons more relevant and compelling for teenagers. We dive into the concept of "impact learning," a model designed to foster adaptable, resilient individuals. Kirk discusses the role of mentorship, peer-to-peer learning, and maintaining an inquisitive mindset, urging students to chase their passions and seek deep understanding. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for educators and learners alike, highlighting the profound value of curiosity and a comprehensive approach to learning.
This podcast is proudly sponsored by USC Annenberg’s Master of Science in Digital Media Management (MSDMM) program. An online master’s designed to prepare practitioners to understand the evolving media landscape, make data-driven and ethical decisions, and build a more equitable future by leading diverse teams with the technical, artistic, analytical, and production skills needed to create engaging content and technologies for the global marketplace. Learn more or apply today at https://dmm.usc.edu.
Welcome to Mediascape Insights from Digital Changemakers, a speaker series and podcast brought to you by USC Annenberg's Digital Media Management Program. Join us as we unlock the secrets to success in an increasingly digital world. Welcome to Mediascape Insights from Digital Changemakers, brought to you by the Digital Media Management Program at USC Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism. One of the pioneers of virtual education, way back going back into the early 2000s and 90s and continuing on today as we proceed into the brave new world of artificial intelligence, dynamic curriculum and beyond. Kirk, thanks so much for being with us today.
Speaker 2:Thanks, joseph, excited to be chatting with you and everyone at USC.
Speaker 1:Kirk, as we start our interview today, take us back to the time when you were first getting involved in education, before the internet, because I know that you're a multi-generational educator.
Speaker 2:Tell us about that a little bit, please. For sure, my experience in education started probably in utero. My family has been in the education space for generations, so I think I'm a fourth generation educator. My grandfather was a professional basketball player, got his doctorate in education and founded a school as well as camps. My father also ran the Dwight School as the longest standing headmaster, longest board member on the International Baccalaureate, and so education and the idea really of a scholar, athlete and innovation in education has been a part of my family for my entire life, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:But I'll take you back even to pre-internet. What was interesting? And I never really saw myself. I think most kids don't necessarily see themselves right away following in their family footsteps. They always want to carve their own path, and I was on the cusp of the digital revolution, the internet revolution, in the late 90s, early 2000s. I attended Dartmouth College, where it turns out that Al Gore may not have founded the internet, but Hewitt, which was the data center and computer center at Dartmouth College, in fact was founded, to quote unquote, be the sort of birthplace of the modern internet in the early 1970s. So there was a lot of history there.
Speaker 2:I think that the real innovation came from the fact that I was, when I was before college, pursuing a lot of athletics. I was a competitive junior tennis player, and it allowed me a lot of opportunity but a lot of angst when it came to school. I had the opportunity to travel all around the world to compete, yet at the same time I had to miss school and it caused some friction. And so from an early age it was a dream of how can we? There's got to be some way that you can pursue a passion as well as getting a great education. And that was probably in the late 80s, early 90s, when that sort of percolated. That was in the back of my head. And 30 plus years later, we are in a whole new world right now.
Speaker 1:Kirk, you're the founder of an amazing virtual school. Tell me about that school and tell me why virtual education is the answer for so many folks around the world who are chasing a dream.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well. You know, the concept of virtual education has been around for a lot of years but, like most technologies, it takes advancements in so many ways from chips to memory to personal computers to mobile devices. And you know, I first really got involved in virtual learning right after Dartmouth College I moved to Europe and worked at a company called Schoolmasternet and I saw the ability of using the internet to facilitate a more personalized educational experience. At the time and really for the next 20 years, virtual education was simply kind of photocopying textbooks and doing very, I would say, online learning 1.0 was just taking what existed in a physical form and putting it in a virtual setting, and that is not really where we're at today and that doesn't make education more personalized and customized. So I think the early perceptions of online learning was that it was incredibly isolating and you didn't have real teachers, you didn't have guidance. It was sort of a lonely experience.
Speaker 2:I was very, very fortunate in my early years in the internet to hear Steve Jobs speak, and it was one of his last talks that he gave and he said that when asked about what he wanted to spend his time on in the future, he basically pointed to two things, and one was television and the other was education. And he did a famous Steve Jobs thing. He brought a backpack on stage. It was so heavy he said this is what my kid lugs to school. You know, must weigh 50 pounds, and I don't even know what's going on in here. I asked him about his teachers. He sort of, ah, it's okay here and there. And he said you know, I believe that the power of the internet will be able to bring the highest quality education, the most personalized education, to the masses at a very affordable price. And also, this backpack will be used for lunch only and not the textbook. So he was very excited about the iPad, the personal computer, the iPhone, what that could do for education. And this was obviously decades before Zoom. I mean our ability. Right now, if you think about this podcast and how we are communicating, this is a revolution in education. I mean, this didn't happen in the 90s, early 2000s, that we could be. You can essentially run a class, live and have kids from anywhere in the world. So I was incredibly inspired by that.
Speaker 2:But I still didn't know the right pieces to put together because, again, the perception was that in no way online learning could be as good as in-person learning, a lot like the original online shopping that's just used for discounts, right? No one's going to shop on the internet. They want to go into a store, they want to try things on and you know, for a long time that was what people thought. And then Amazon all of a sudden, this is really easy, you know, ease of use becomes very important quality and people realize that now it's almost reverse, where people go shopping for discounts and they pay up front for a virtual.
Speaker 2:So I think education has traditionally always been a lot slower and you probably know, and people in the education world unlike places like USC where they're teaching really cutting edge things the actual industry of education particularly for grades K through 12, has not changed dramatically since the 1950s, and the purpose of traditional school was, in part, daycare and it was what do we do with these kids for these massive hours in the day? And what I found is that when a child is dedicated to something and has to spend a lot of time on it, that the traditional education of sort of to sort of how can we elongate periods? How? You know, let's teach geometry over a whole year, whereas you actually probably could teach it in a matter of two or three months.
Speaker 2:But the way the calendar worked out it was sort of you had to follow these guidelines, which may not be effective or efficient for kids that were actually pursuing outside passions, and that fact really was the culminating reason, because I was one of them. So so, being a Guinea pig myself in the tennis world, I knew that I could get through my work in an efficient manner, but sometimes I was told by teachers no, you can't get ahead Like, you can't continue on or you have to go at this pace. And I knew that my calendar schedule was crazy with tournaments, and I really saw a problem that needed a solution and I think that you know part of it was right place, right time the creation of things like Zoom and Google Classroom and just that. The technology of customization. Personalization has allowed myself and others to be able to pursue this dream, to carry out that vision that Steve Jobs had to deliver a quality education that is more personal and actually more customized than a traditional education.
Speaker 1:Kirk, thank you so much for that thoughtful, amazing answer. And our program at USC DMM is a virtual program as well. We created it because we're working professionals. Even if you lived in Los Angeles, making it down to campus a couple of nights a week and all that traffic simply wouldn't be feasible. But we have this opportunity and this power, just like your program at ICL Academy, that we can provide a great education to people from all over the country and all over the world. And I want to ask you about technology. So when people think of media and technology, they're usually not thinking about education.
Speaker 1:Education was, as you mentioned before, textbooks. It was invented and created modern day education by a group of older gentlemen who said and created modern day education by a group of older gentlemen who said we need to prepare a workforce that is going to be ready to go into our factories, work on our assembly lines. That's going to be very orderly. We want to create individuals who think the same way, can follow instructions, can sit in seats, listen to one teacher. That was their idea of scale One teacher, 30-ish students. Now that's all changed. How is virtual education going to be part of the revolution, not just of how students learn, but of the workforce, of the future?
Speaker 2:It's a great question and that is the purpose. I mean we should not forget that. That should be reminded all around that the goal of ICL Academy and the goal of what should be the goal of all educational institutions is to prepare the next generation to be effective workforce, global citizens. Your last question is sort of how it started. I went way, way back, but the truth is the ICL started over two decades ago as a not-for-profit and what's so wonderful and unique was it was really under the same mission which pervades across ICL Academy is very similar with USC and is broiled down into. Our mission is to inspire with USC and is broiled down into you know, our mission is to inspire and educate and support students to make a positive impact on their local and global communities. I mean bottom line that includes workforce, that includes global citizenship and that brings into account elements that are often overlooked in schools, like character and leadership, because the workforce of tomorrow is not so much about the individual learning but it's really about how you work as a team, how you can critically think, and you were alluding to it in your introduction that with the onset of AI, that's going to change everything, because traditional workflow will be done in a very different manner because you have so much support. I mean, I hear stories of you know my father or older people who talk about the invention of a calculator and then you know computer, of how things became so much easier through advances in technology. But with all of those come a responsibility on how to utilize them, come a responsibility on how to utilize them effectively to create really a more dynamic workforce, a different looking workforce. And so we're right at the cusp and it doesn't start when you get to USC.
Speaker 2:Right, the idea of the schools and graduate schools is enhancing those, but it has to start young, it has to start really what we believe is from the fifth grade. I think that early on and early education and creating a love of learning and just laying the foundation is important to be in a community setting. But as soon as you hit the point where you become a teenager and it's really about application and I think sometimes that's lost and you mentioned the early educators and how it was built out of textbooks I think that that has transitioned away, because now it's about and when we talk about three things engagement, application and mastery. And I think that application it's a paradigm shift and it's going to reset how education is. It's how do I apply what I'm learning into real world, real scenarios? I mean, when you get to graduate school and college, you do a lot of case studies, you do things that are real life, and I think that skill of working through real world problems is something that is transformative and should be at the base of all education.
Speaker 1:Out of our program. We are graduating multimedia master's degree students. Multimedia is one of those things that sometimes people think, hey, that means I need to be in Hollywood, I need to work for Google or Facebook, meta Twitter, one of these platforms. But the truth is that multimedia is embedded within every industry, every company across the globe. Within every industry, every company across the globe. My question for you now is, if I'm a student graduating and I'm thinking about education I know I have a heart for education Is there a place in education for a multimedia professional? And, if so, how and where and what might that look like?
Speaker 2:Another great question, and the easy answer is absolutely. There are so many opportunities, and I would argue that the entire fabric of education and the way it's delivered to youth needs to be changed through multimedia, because everything that kids are doing is related to their fun. Everything around them is multimedia. It's bite-sized. People are not reading Tolstoy. I mean. You know the days of having that huge book and underlining, or going to the stacks and checking out library books and then writing essays and having to search for indexes and your bibliography. I mean all those things are wiped away clean, and so the way in which kids are going to be educated is going to be through multimedia. So it really is the youth, those multimedia experts, who can deliver lessons in a more compelling way, things that students are used to, that they can really understand. Because, to give you an idea, we have another mantra at ICL, which is respect tradition and embrace tomorrow, and what that really means is education, and a great education still comes from great teachers. You have to be inspired by great teachers. So the reason that people sign up for a course I know you teach at USC people love your courses and the teacher is still a huge part of that engagement. Now they have to use engaging materials. So multimedia is used. Even great teachers use props, use everything that they can to engage a student, and so that should never go away. Right, that engagement is paramount, but the embrace tomorrow is really. How do we use technology to galvanize and collect the greatest minds, the greatest orders, all these people that can make a subject come alive?
Speaker 2:I'm going to take personally. I'm not so much a math and science guy, so I'll use myself as a guinea pig and I didn't want to learn physics because it seemed way out there to me. I didn't understand the application. Nobody said this is how physics is applied to your not only your everyday life, but to you as a tennis player. Well, at ICL, when someone told me Kurt, physics and math is a tennis sport, I mean 100%. So let's you know. You see the equation for velocity and it's lots of numbers and chalk. But I get. I get kind of lost when I see you know huge equations and someone says watch Roger Federer, sir, see when he goes down the T at 127 miles an hour for an ACE, and yet when he goes out wide it's 104 miles an hour. Why is that? That's all velocity and all of a sudden, the court becomes angles, it becomes math and you get a really different perspective. So I think that for multimedia students, you know the use of imagery, of digital media, is really going to. It transforms textbooks because the way students learn has come such a long way.
Speaker 2:And not to geek out and start, you know, rattling off random facts, but I will share with you that when I was studying education in college and in grad school, howard Gardner at Harvard was a really renowned education professor and he'd come up with this concept in psychologists and he said that there are nine multiple intelligences, that people learn in nine different ways.
Speaker 2:You know, 30 years later, there are now, I believe, 42 multiple intelligences, the way people learn. So you know it's gone from a one size fits all you know teacher textbook, exam, study on your own, maybe have a group to. I actually learned better from listening to a podcast. Or I visually want to see what you're talking about through a small video clip, a movie. I may want to read it and then I may want to take notes over again because it's that repetition that is ingrained in me. I may want to hear it and then try to regurgitate it, talk to someone else about it. So all the ways in which we learn to make lessons become real in our heads, you and I learned we could have the same thing posed to us, but how we would learn it truly would probably come in different forms, and I think that understanding that that all comes down to how we can get more people in multimedia to be creators to transform education, which is absolutely necessary and happening right now.
Speaker 1:I grew up, as you did, with this idea of a one-size-fits-all education, and I love that you just talked about how virtual education, multimedia, dynamic, adaptable curriculums can make learning relevant to each student, to what their unique interests and passions are. There have been so many studies that show that information alone doesn't get the job done. It doesn't stick. Information has to be combined with emotion and context, and that last one is really really important, based on what it was that you were just saying so brilliantly about the tennis court and Roger Federer. I didn't know that. 127 versus 104 and how suddenly, if I'm a 14-year-old learning about geometry or physics, that can start to come alive where before it's you know. It might be one of those things where you go. This has no relevance to me. Why am I paying attention? Why am I even here? So thank you so much for drilling into that.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you a question about entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship, I've always felt, is this amazing way that you can design your perfect job. We're all thinking about how to prepare our high school college students for the best job that they could have, but there's no such thing as the perfect job unless, as an entrepreneur, you design it yourself and you take these seemingly disconnected parts of your passions, your interests, your skills, your strengths, staying away from your weaknesses and putting them together to design the life that you want. So I want to ask you about entrepreneurship as it relates to education, because you yourself have been an entrepreneur. You've raised money, you've sold companies, you've built companies, you've taken entities and shifted them and morphed them into new ones. So I want to ask you, as an entrepreneur in this realm of education, how important is it for college students, graduate students to be thinking with this entrepreneurial mindset, and what does that mean to you? What is an entrepreneurial mindset as an educator, and what does that mean to you? What is an?
Speaker 2:entrepreneurial mindset. As an educator Wow, I'm smiling because I think that there's no better thing to at least attempt to be than an entrepreneur. I used to say that if every person in the world before the age of 30 could one be a teacher and two be some form of entrepreneur. It gives you so much application to what you learn, and I think the hardest part of education is actually applying it, and the entrepreneurial mindset is one that's all about trying and failing. An entrepreneur and a scientist are way more related. I would argue that all scientists are entrepreneurs. Every time you go into a lab and you're trying something and they do hundreds of tests, they write it down fail, fail, fail, fail. Eureka, we hit it, we got it. There's something new. That's entrepreneurship.
Speaker 2:The basis of an education, and the basis of an education, especially a US kind of liberal arts-based education, is all around creating this to be a fast thinker. It's not to create robots, it's actually to create the entrepreneur. I like to use the word edupreneur because education can be used in that. It's often overlooked when people have made distinctions and say, oh, if you're a teacher, you're not an entrepreneur. There's this sort of safe zone, whereas I would argue that, being in education, you're constantly entrepreneurial, in fact, for cutting edge new teachers. It's all about how we can create new ways to engage students in the classroom. So you're trying new things, you're bucking the old and the entrepreneurial spirit and mindset. It really correlates with growth mindset. It correlates with what world champions talk about.
Speaker 2:We happen to be recording this podcast during the Olympics. There's no better example of entrepreneurs than Olympians and you'll never hear that right, people don't talk about this, but the sacrifice. There's so many correlations between an Olympic athlete, an entrepreneur, as I said, a scientist, because what they're doing is they are giving themselves their all to one very specific thing and for many people who are watching the Olympics, they're dedicating 10 years of their life for 60 seconds in four years in the Olympics. But what goes into that? And my argument is that what they're doing that may be formulating to go for one thing, whether it's the balance beam or the bars, they are using physics and math and they're applying so much into every detail that that growth mindset is actually relevant in everywhere.
Speaker 2:And a big part of why ICL Academy is super unique to other educational institutions is that we invite those Olympians to come and actually talk to our students, and what we found is that not only are they inspiring and obviously we're in awe of anyone I personally, and I'm sure you are anyone that competes in the Olympics, but you win a medal and you're doing superhuman things that are almost unimaginable but when they come in and talk and you line up and over the course of the last two decades I'd say ICL has brought in dozens of Olympians there's a consistency in messaging which goes into entrepreneurship, growth, mindset and the lessons, even from a volleyball player to a tennis player, to a skier, all different disciplines but all very similar lessons, and that, to me, is the word education. Like education for a USC student is not confined to the walls of USC, and I think that there is a misperception, especially in youth, that my education is when I walk in, when the bell rings at 8.30 in the morning and when I get out of school at 3 pm. But that's just completely not true. So what ICL, what new educators, new virtual learning and especially the digital media experts can showcase is that education takes form without walls, 24 hours a day.
Speaker 2:You can always be learning, always be applying, and so I think that if half of our world, now our workforce, is no longer strapped to an office with a desk and a manager across the hall in a cubicle. People are working from home. They're on the road, they're using their phones for everything they're doing, what we're doing right now. You don't know if I'm on a mountaintop or where we are. You look like you're the Starship Enterprise leading you know a galaxy to battle.
Speaker 2:So I think that this is really important to say that education comes at you in so many different you know the word non-traditional forms, and we want to be open to all of that, and I think the future of education is using that multimedia, using lessons from Olympians and using lessons from. You know, great teachers are found all over the world and they're not, you know, just at USC. They are at USC, but you know USC can collaborate and you can bring in people that are based in France and based all over the world, and that could never happen. You know, traditionally, a great teacher would teach, as you said, 30 kids for one year in a classroom that the whole world has opened up, and I think it's our job as educators and entrepreneurs to be able to bring that to the students in a way that is engaging to them, applicable to them to ultimately make it so it becomes their own.
Speaker 1:But I want to ask you about this amazing thing that you created many years ago called impact learning. Impact learning, why did you call it impact learning and what's the significance of that word to you?
Speaker 2:up with it it was one of those things where it's not sexy. Cool. It's the fact that the word impact was used in every conversation amongst great educators, amongst athletes, amongst bosses, amongst investors. What's the impact? Everyone would be cut to the to lead our best lives, to have the most impact for ourselves, for our families, for our job. And so it cuts through a lot.
Speaker 2:In marketing there are some brilliant things and in science, everything is simplicity. Albert Einstein said that. I mean when you can simplify complex things, you're a genius. Nike, just do it, you know. I mean you really come down to impact.
Speaker 2:Learning is what are our goals? Our goals are to make an impact on these kids and to help them make their impact. So the impact learning model is what I described a bit earlier. It's taking away the four walls and the 40-minute bell schedule that thinks I'm learning about this subject within this confine of 40 minutes. It's opening up the world and everything you see to be filed. And now that we have personal computers, we can relate our brains a lot more because the way in which windows operates, when we file things we have photos, we have essays, we star things, we compartmentalize it, we go back to them. That's how our brains work Like things that stick come to the front, things that go in, go to the back, are harder to retrieve, so we usually bring up those things we need to deal with a task that's set in front of us. And so impact learning is how can we train ourselves to be adaptable so that we can thrive in any situation?
Speaker 2:Why the IB was created and the founder of the IB said I want any IB student that you could take up into a plane, blindfold them, and it's circumnavigating the globe and at one point, boom, you get pushed out, you land somewhere, you take off your blindfold, I don't know where I am, but an IB student can survive and thrive anywhere and make an impact to wherever they end up. And so the ICL is really using that model, because it's not just about traditional academics that is a big component of it so but it's taking traditional academics and tailoring it to what kids are passionate about, to make it more relevant, to make it more impactful on them. So it's sort of a feedback loop where a teacher can impact a student on how they're delivering information. The student then gets it processed and then delivers it back out to make an impact to others. And so that it became obvious that, even looking for a name, because the IB people like to understand things in simple form and when I say impact learning, it's way more in depth than just the word impact, because to make the impact, we have to have mentorship from world champions. We have to have great peer-to-peer learning, because I would argue that and you probably see it at USC it's not just you don't go to USC because you have a great teacher, it's you know that the peers that you have are like minded, you know they have similar goals and they're probably end up being your business partners, your friends for life, because you're connected through a shared passion, a shared purpose. And so you know, if you start, that young impact learning model is world-class academics tailored to passion.
Speaker 2:It is about focusing more on what's referred to as soft skills or EQ, but it's hugely important. It's a sense of character, it's leadership skills, how you work as a team, your empathy. It's about your grit and your resilience and showing that, because nothing in life is on your time right. You have to follow others and you have to follow guidelines and how you deal with adversity or challenges, because challenges will come up in everyone's life and how you deal with. That is not necessarily how you do in an academic course. It's going to be about your character and how you can understand grit. Academic course it's going to be about your character and how you can understand grit and resilience and really put that to work. So that part of impact learning, together with your peers, together with really how you apply it all of those things together is what impact learning is about.
Speaker 1:Kirk, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your time, but, most of all, your wisdom, a lifetime of learning and challenges that you've accumulated, and you're at full sprint building this amazing organization and the foundation that's behind it, and I just want to thank you for sharing your time, all of this knowledge and wisdom with us. We'd love to have you on with us again. I've learned so much and I know you very well, and I've learned so much just by sitting with you, so I really appreciate it. For all of our students who are listening and anybody in our wider audience, this is a great communicator. This is somebody who knows how to find the words, this is someone who knows how to listen, and it's something that we can all aspire to. Thank you very much, kirk.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much, and I would probably lead some of the students with just a couple of nuggets of what can be impactful, and a way to be impactful is things that you just tuned in on. I try to focus my life on just always being curious and I think curiosity is really a stimulus and try to learn about how things work and you know primary sources right. Don't take what you read and what you see with a one shot and if it excites you, go deep. And that's where I think education is very important to. While we talk about multimedia and keeping things bite size, I think what a great education is when you can find a subject you're passionate about and really go deep into primary sources. It builds a whole wealth of understanding and I think you know being inquisitive.
Speaker 2:Don't be afraid to be the little kid that says why, that asks why, why do we need to know this?
Speaker 2:That you know why, as a parent is, can be an annoying word, but the truth is it is about curiosity and you know everything that we have right now is an evolution, and in science, you, and even in medicine, you hear things we're proving a model and then 10 years later, it's completely debunked and something new happens, and so we're on the cusp of an incredible revolution with artificial intelligence and AI, and I think that you know, don't be afraid but be inquisitive, try to learn, try to make things as relatable to your own life, and I think that will allow you to have the biggest impact your own life, and I think that will allow you to have the biggest impact.
Speaker 2:So I want to extend a big thank you to you, joseph and you know, for teaching these classes, for for actually USC, for acknowledging and understanding the importance of what a digital media lab and a whole. It's a new way of thinking. You go back a decade ago and this wasn't part of the conversation. Digital media, to me, wants someone that could do a PowerPoint like someone you had. So I really think it's great to spread the wings and grow, and I think that it'll be not just part of education going forward. It'll start much younger and younger. So thank you for having me and thank you for what you do.
Speaker 1:Thanks everybody for joining us. This has been Mediascape with Kirk Spahn, founder of the ICL Foundation, the Institute for Civic Leadership and ICL Academy. See you next time. To learn more about the Master of Science in Digital Media Management program, visit us on the web at dmmuscedu.
.jpg)
