MEDIASCAPE: Insights From Digital Changemakers
Join hosts Joseph Itaya and Anika Jackson as they dive into conversations with leaders and changemakers shaping the future of digital media. Each episode explores the frontier of multimedia, artificial intelligence, marketing, branding, and communication, spotlighting how emerging digital trends and technologies are transforming industries across the globe.
MEDIASCAPE is proudly sponsored by USC Annenberg’s Master of Science in Digital Media Management (MSDMM) program. This online master’s program is designed to prepare practitioners to understand the evolving media landscape, make data-driven and ethical decisions, and build a more equitable future by leading diverse teams with the technical, artistic, analytical, and production skills needed to create engaging content and technologies for the global marketplace. Learn more or apply today at https://dmm.usc.edu.
MEDIASCAPE: Insights From Digital Changemakers
Marketing Without Burnout: A New Agency Model
Katie Gray's journey from traditional agency work to founding her own marketing collective reveals a refreshing new model for the industry. After experiencing the limitations of conventional agency structures—where junior marketers get thrust into high-stakes roles prematurely and burnout leads to high turnover—she built Kinetic Marketing Communications as a solution.
The secret? A nationwide network of senior-level specialists who collaborate as independent contractors. This approach eliminates geographical constraints while ensuring clients work with true experts in each marketing discipline. Unlike traditional agencies that often switch account teams mid-project, Kinetic provides continuity with proven professionals who deliver consistently excellent work.
Gray draws a compelling parallel between marketing and medicine—both fields require specialists with deep expertise in particular areas. Just as you wouldn't want a general practitioner performing brain surgery, why would you want a junior generalist handling your specialized marketing needs? This philosophy has allowed Kinetic to build teams precisely matched to each client's unique requirements.
When discussing artificial intelligence's role in marketing, Gray acknowledges its utility while emphasizing its limitations. "Buying is 95% emotion," she reminds us, explaining that while AI can help with outlines and frameworks, authentic human connection remains essential. Content must feel like it comes from a person, not an algorithm—a distinction today's savvy audiences can readily identify.
For aspiring marketers, Gray offers valuable advice: gain broad exposure at larger agencies to discover your niche, but be cautious about accepting responsibilities beyond your current abilities. The agency world provides invaluable training, but premature advancement can lead to failure.
Want to experience the difference a team of senior specialists can make for your marketing? Connect with Kinetic Marketing Communications on LinkedIn or visit KineticComms.com to learn how their collective approach delivers agency-quality work without the traditional overhead.
This podcast is proudly sponsored by USC Annenberg’s Master of Science in Digital Media Management (MSDMM) program. An online master’s designed to prepare practitioners to understand the evolving media landscape, make data-driven and ethical decisions, and build a more equitable future by leading diverse teams with the technical, artistic, analytical, and production skills needed to create engaging content and technologies for the global marketplace. Learn more or apply today at https://dmm.usc.edu.
Welcome to Mediascape insights from digital changemakers, a speaker series and podcast brought to you by USC Annenberg's Digital Media Management Program. Join us as we unlock the secrets to success in an increasingly digital world.
Speaker 2:I am thrilled today to have a human and person-centered marketer, katie Gray, kinetic Marketing Communications. We were having such a great conversation before we jumped on that I was like, wait, I need to push record right now. Thank you so much for joining me on Mediascape. Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, so I would love first of all. Well, thank you for having me. Yeah, so I would love first of all to get a little background to our audience on your journey into starting your own women-owned top-tier agency. Did you always know you wanted to go into marketing? Because I know from your profile you have a lot of CMO roles and you've had a lot of really great roles at different agencies.
Speaker 3:The answer is kind of. So since a young age I've always had a creative sensibility. I've been in the performing arts since I was three, growing up as a dancer and doing musical theater, and then also I just I also kind of had a draw to journalism. It's weird, I've got this like hybrid brain. My mom is very creative and she was a dancer, so I get that from her.
Speaker 3:My father was an engineer and so he's very pragmatic and logical, and so when I had to pick a major in college, I kind of felt like that those two sensibilities worked really well for marketing and advertising. So the answer is kind of, but I did sort of stay on that path. I graduated and turned in an agency, ended up working for a commercial film production company and then segwaying that and doing like large scale media events and then ended up getting kind of back into my core roots with agency in 2007. And since then I've been leading cross-functional teams in executive leadership roles and as well as in-house to help mid to enterprise level businesses achieve their growth goals through marketing communication strategies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, I think a lot of these conversations that I have with other marketers is around what are the recent trends? How is AI playing a role? But with you, I think we have a little bit of a different conversation, and one that I think is so vitally important, because you really stress the people and why it's important to have the right people in the room and the right people delivering each part of your tactic and your strategy. So can you talk a little bit about what that looked like when you decided to go out on your own, start, your own agency, and why this is one of the principles that you led with Right?
Speaker 3:So I feel like agencies are great training grounds for younger marketers. I mean, it kind of throws you into the fire. You can learn a lot about different disciplines and kind of figure out where your niche is. The issue is in traditional agency world. You know, I feel like there's a misconception. Well, sorry, I'm jumping around, but what I would say is the problem is sometimes they're put in the driver's seat before they're ready, right, and that can be harmful to the client because they're having someone who hasn't developed the skills to really be able to perform the work at the level that they need to to get the results that the client's looking for, and then obviously that's going to backfire and you're going to have brush fires that you have to put out and stuff. So I think it's best like if you've got a younger marketer who's working for a larger group like you know, like maybe an Accenture or McKinsey or Deloitte or even a larger agency to where they get exposed to all of the different disciplines and the types of work that are part of the marketing universe, but they're not forced to take that front row seat or that driver's seat to be able to perform the work in front, you know, and have to deliver it on behalf of the company, and so I've just seen that happen over time. Plus, there's a lot of in that kind of space, there can be a lot of burnout and overwork. You know, because the W2 model I mean, you're on salary, there's no overtime. You know you're going to stretch those junior level marketers as much as they can. They're going to have trouble, like you know, having a work life balance and that sort of thing. And then that also falls on the people who are really good at their jobs. You know people who perform at a high level, who are senior level people. Same thing happens with those people and then as a result you'll see a lot of attrition in agencies and that kind of thing. And then the continuity for the client becomes an issue because you know you keep changing your contact person and that sort of thing. And so that leads into sort of why I started.
Speaker 3:Kinetic is. It's a marketing collective of established career, established contractors. So we're like your general contractor. And what's wonderful about it is we're not confined to the zip code. Our team is everywhere throughout the country. We've got people in New York, in California, in Denver, in Michigan, I mean like everywhere, in Iowa, like we've got this incredible curated team who has worked together before on multiple projects. They're proven, they're tested, they're all senior level folks that aren't going anywhere. So like contacts and the continuity of work is not going to change and because we're not strapped, we're not like constrained by all this overhead that we have to deal with, it just allows us that scalability and we're price competitive with traditional agencies. And so I think after the pandemic, when remote working was proven and more of these people became available, it just sort of clicked.
Speaker 3:And you'll see other groups, like Upwork and you know that sort of thing, where you can pull these freelance contractors but they're in a silo and they're not really thinking about the comprehensive overall plan. But they're in a silo and they're not really thinking about the comprehensive overall plan and how they fit in. Or you know, I mean usually it's just these sort of one-off things, whereas we're more holistic in our approach, we know which team members to pull in at the right time. We can plug and play, but we still have to have a sense of what the overall strategy is so we can serve you the best way possible. So, anyway, that's a very long answer, but that is the reason why I started the business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's fantastic. I think about my early days as a marketer and everything I did was very organic. I came up through the club world and promoting and got thrown into a marketing agency. But really my first interaction with big advertisers was I didn't have a level of sophistication I hadn't been trained on, and this was before the internet. So how do you create a great presentation for a client like Absolute, for a magazine?
Speaker 2:Again, I'm dating myself a little bit, but I remember flying to New York and having to present to Absolute's agency and having some great ideas, but I didn't know what order do I put these ideas in? How do I really make this presentation pop? Because I was in my early 20s and I'll just do this and go present and, to your point, I was not the person who should have been presenting. I should have known a little bit more, and so it was an interesting experience for me. But I also know that's why we didn't get level of advertising that we could have, because I didn't have that sophistication and then other roles as well. You know it's. It is really important to have the right people and people who understand the insides.
Speaker 3:Right, and I think there's ways to expose the younger marketers, because I do think it's important to push and see how they perform and have them take that risk and stuff, and the company needs to be behind them. But there's a certain not on a stage like what you mentioned, or when it's a critical project for a client, like you know, where all eyes are going to be on that project. I think you've got to be really careful in how you choose where they it's like stepping stones. You know where they take those risks, because I think a lot of how you learn is when you fail, and I do think everybody needs to fail. But boy, I mean seriously, I used to joke like I would do my job so well when I was younger, you know, and I'd be like, oh, I'm knocking this out of the park. But, boy, when I screwed up, it was a biggie. You know, it's like I love when it happens. There are these huge failures that you're like, okay, never, ever going to do that again, did you have?
Speaker 2:any inciting incidents to your point that happened, that made you realize, ooh, I want to start this other kind of agency and I'm going to pull in the best and I'm going to pull in people who are really highly skilled but also specialists in each area.
Speaker 3:Right? Yes, because what you'll see, you know, at traditional agencies that position themselves as full service. I can't think of a one that literally covers every specialty and subspecialty imaginable in the marketing universe, within the confines of that W-2 structure Forever. They have supplemented through contractors. You have to. You kind of have to think of the marketing field like the medical field. I mean, you have cardiologists, you've got neurologists, you've got endocrinologists, you have all of these, and then you've got subspecialties. Even within those specialties, like in cardiology, people might be, you know, performing or maybe hyper focused on AFib and you know surgeries or procedures related to the same thing with you know, all of these different marketing is the same way with SEO strategists and you've got good user experience strategists who are different from content strategists who are different from PR, and PR has a subspecialty of crisis management. People who are really good at crisis management may not be good at media pitching. So it's just, I don't.
Speaker 3:I think there is a misunderstanding of how specialized this field is, and so, having experienced everything I have, I realized, wow, what if I could create something where I could pull all the specialties I wanted without the confines of that W-2 structure, with that overhead? And then you know you don't have any junior marketers. These are people who are being supplemented by Deloitte's, by Accenture's, these contractors that we work with because they're freaking fantastic, and then you plug them in. Your client gets the best work. You're not putting out brush fires all day, and so our model is definitely not structured for, I would say, nurturing young marketers.
Speaker 3:I still think they need to start at those places that we talked about, like the bigger agencies and stuff. But for us at this point in our career, as well as my business partner, megan Swaggart, we just really wanted to be able to do the work, do it well, work with people who have the capacity to do the work, you know, from a skill level, from a bandwidth level, because we've got, you know, all of these different resources that we can use, where, in an agency, you're just dumped on Like it doesn't matter if you don't think about it. There's really not a lot of empathy for that. They just want to get the work done.
Speaker 2:There's a couple things that stood out with that. One is we talked about needing the skill level, right, and before we jumped on, you were talking about, well, they need to actually not just know the theoretical aspects, but they actually need to know how to practice, and I feel like we do try to pull a lot of that in our program. They have to have a capstone, so they have to understand how to put together a marketing plan, a content strategy, budgets. So it is more of a generalist overview, right, but they're getting a little bit of information and hopefully they can figure out what they want to hone in on, but other programs may not. I have heard of cases where people graduate with a master's and they go to an agency and they get their first task and they have no idea what to do and they're calling their professors.
Speaker 3:I've witnessed it Like I've witnessed that with someone who worked on my team at another agency where she had a master's degree and she was paid really well but she just struggled to do the job. And so there's exactly what you said. I think as much as you can put like real world experiences and what you were saying is perfect being able to build a budget, being able to build a plan, you know, just having that experience is really going, that practical experience in marketing is really going to serve those folks well who transition to agency.
Speaker 2:So for Kinetic was it a difficult sell to get other people to come in as contractors. And you're nodding no for anybody who's not widespread yet you know, we're definitely we run.
Speaker 3:The obstacle that we run into right now is like if we were to reply to an RFP that's out there, because a lot of our work comes from referrals and relationships that we've had in the past and so, but like if we were just to blindly respond to an RFP. One of the questions that matters to them is how many employees do you have? And so I'm like, well, it's a whole lot if you count, how you know, if you count their 1099s. But like that's kind of the disconnect is that there is still this mindset that the number of people that you have in your house is what matters. And we have that number of people, but they wouldn't you know. We'd have to explain.
Speaker 3:You know how that works and it's really more of a benefit to them because we're price competitive with people in the house. But you're not going to have people who don't are not super experienced marketers, you know, in the role. A lot of times we hear too that, like the people that go and do the pitches, that the agencies are not the people who are serving the count. It's going to be a whole different team of people that you haven't met, or the team changes because of attrition, like we talked about, because of burnout and all that, and we don't have that problem.
Speaker 2:And that's beautiful as well. I've been in agencies smaller agencies, where I remember one case somebody started. They came in, they were working on a social media team, I think they last few days and then they just mailed their laptop back and just didn't show up and said I'm done, because they wanted to clock out at five and they were the junior person and they still had a lot to learn and they were like no, you have to stay a little bit later because we really need to finish this for the client and they're just so. That's another thing that you can run into when you're working. You know, we're trying to figure out how to work with different generations. Yes, wow.
Speaker 3:That's true, it's true. You know, I'm yeah, I don't want to, I'm going to date myself too, but I'm an Xer and so, like I mean we just had to roll up our sleeves and do it and we didn't ask questions. I mean they used to call us the lazy generation, but I'm like I don't think we are. I think we're very scrappy and I think we just always had to make it work, as Tim Gunn would say in Project Runway. But like, yeah, it's definitely a different mindset and I would definitely not be the person you would want to talk to about getting into the brain of one of you know, into that generation. It's a generation that I have trouble identifying with, just because I do not post my life on social media. I am, you know, I'm more of a private person, and so you know, anyway, it's just it's so different, it's a different world.
Speaker 2:And another thing that's really different these days is, of course, artificial intelligence. I remember when we started talking about generative AI and the program, of course, was running way before that, and now it went from having conversations about are you using gen AI? To you must use gen AI, and here's how it can make things easier that these are tools. They're not going to replace the human element. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your thoughts, ways that maybe your team weaves in some elements of AI, but also has that really human-centered strategy Right?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, just remember, like buying is 95% emotion, right, it's. Everybody still makes decisions through emotion, and so I do feel like there's a place for it. Again, everything is driven by people. You have to know the right queries, you have to know the right prompts, you have to be able to, you know, make sure that you're getting what you want out of it. I feel like it's useful in creating outlines for different pieces of content that you're doing and that sort of thing Definitely help guide maybe themes that you want to elaborate on, and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:But I would never, anytime it spits anything out, the human has to be involved to edit it, to shape it. It has to be your own voice, it has to feel like it's coming from you and not from a computer, and so I would say, you know, we use it from a content perspective, less so on the design, because I definitely feel like, or voiceover, anything like that from a talent perspective or design perspective, because I think that it's deceiving, I don't feel like it's authentic, and so there's a place for it, and that would, I would say that's kind of where we're using it more is just shortcuts around outlines and, you know, thoughts around content and that sort of thing. But we're not like going, we're not asking at a query and to spit out an article and go here client Because it's, yeah, it's, it's good, but it's not that good yet.
Speaker 3:It still has to be authentic and come from a human. Again, I mean, I think people are smarter than you think they are in terms of being able to tell. If you know what's AI generated and what's not, I think it can be deceiving, but when you're caught in the act, it's going to bite you in the butt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Well. And this takes me to a couple of questions around when you are first onboarding a client and they might not know what they don't know right. Maybe they have some ideas of what kinds of tactics, what kinds of strategy they need to implement, but they might not fully engage. So how do you start that process and decide how you're going to build out that team for each client?
Speaker 3:So I mean, the number one question you ask is how success is going to be measured. You know like why are we doing this plan in the first place? You know what are the objectives, what are you trying to achieve and how do you want to measure those results, and then we basically create a plan around that. You know every everyone is different. Every single one is different. I mean, you've got business to business clients who are in the energy space we were talking before. You know, entertainment marketing is completely different. Healthcare B2C marketing is completely different than healthcare B2B marketing.
Speaker 3:And so you know, first of all, it comes back to what does success metrics look like?
Speaker 3:You know what's the timeline for the campaign or the initiative that you're trying to achieve, obviously asking about budget, because the sky's the limit.
Speaker 3:If you don't care, we can put together a plan for as much as you want, but usually there are some limitations there, and so we need to understand sort of the ballpark of the investment that they want to make.
Speaker 3:So, looking at all of those factors, and then the first thing that you want to do is also understand if the current positioning matches the positioning based on you know, the brand and based on the objectives that they're trying to achieve, because you want to look at positioning and messaging first and get that you know the brand and based on the objectives that they're trying to achieve, because you want to look at positioning and messaging first and get that you know honed in, and then you want to develop a multimedia or, you know, channel strategy around those objectives as well. And all of that really tells us, then, what we're going to need in terms of media spin, the type of media, the type of vehicles, the format in which we want to communicate the content, and the humans that we need to perform all of this work, who are specialists in each of these different categories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to that point, you talked about different industries. So I would love to hear are there specific industries that you work with that are your sweet spot, or are you industry agnostic?
Speaker 3:We're pretty much industry agnostic, since so many of our team members have experience in a lot of different spaces, but I would say that you know we really do focus on mid to enterprise level businesses and we have probably more experience in, like the healthcare tech, financial services. Energy is a big one too sustainable energy and professional services, as well as entertainment, so those would be our big ones.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so quite a few categories, but that's fantastic because then you have the team members who can plug it based on their specialties as well Not just the skill set, but the industry, perhaps as well. Yes, exactly, when you started your agency, you said it was really easy to get the right people to say yes Sounds like you were able to onboard clients pretty quickly because of your vast experience and your business partners experience and your relationships. Did you have any hiccups when you're figuring out how to? Because you had a construct with how you wanted to bring team members in. So I'd love to hear you know. Were there any challenges?
Speaker 3:There haven't really been any so far in terms of bringing in the team, just because you know again, just the network that I had was so extensive and that she has is so extensive, and then obviously they know people and then it just snowballed. So I would say building the team was one of the easier parts of it. Believe it or not, there's so much wonderful talent out there. The hardest part're going to laugh is really thinking about like when you're building a brand, it's like your baby and it's like, okay, I have to birth this thing from scratch. Who am I Like, what is my why and what colors express that and what you know positioning expresses that and so that I'm so used to serving clients and cause you know positioning expresses that. And so that I'm so used to serving clients and because you know, helping them, I'm a diagnostician of their stuff, their issues, their brand, my own.
Speaker 3:I've always served other people, so to have to look inward was a very enlightening and interesting experience and I'm very proud of the brand and I think it reflects I mean, it reflects both of us, megan and myself. That's one of the reasons that she is now co-owner of the business. We are partners in Chrome because philosophically we agree on all of the same things. We believe people should have mutual. You know everyone should have clients, and our team members alike. We work, we have mutual respect for each other. We're all self-disciplined to do the work. We don't have to have somebody, you know, hitting us with a whip, you know, to get our work done. We lead with empathy and heart and kindness, and so we're very much aligned there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but isn't that funny? It's that thing of I can be doing something for a client or I can be talking about something with my students, but then I have to look at don't look at what I've done, because I'm really bad at I don't have time for social media I'm really bad at doing. I used to be really good at it when I had more time, but now, yeah, there are things that we don't do for ourselves as marketers that are things that we preach to our clients and have to take that look in and go.
Speaker 2:Oh wait, what is my brand?
Speaker 3:And I want me to drink my own Kool-Aid. I literally had to drink my own Kool-Aid. I mean, I had to plan the photo shoot, I had to do the photo shoot. I drank my own Kool-Aid because I'm like okay, you got to practice what you preach here, kid.
Speaker 2:And it sounds like a lot of other agencies, even larger agencies, are starting to really look at this model and go this is the way of the future. I live in California, so when I started my last PR firm, I got really panicked because we have different restrictions around who's a contractor versus an employee. So I went, okay, I have to make everybody an employee. And then I didn't think about but if they're in five states, what do I have to report on each state? What do I have to report on each state? And honestly, I probably could have stayed with contractors because the size of my business and because of the different levers I was pulling. So is that something that you've come across at all? Is that complexity of having contractors in different states and having people really all over?
Speaker 3:Not at all. I mean, it's just been seamless, not even an iota. And I will say just in terms of like, I don't know if this model is for everyone. It really depends on the goal of the professional services industry, like in advertising and marketing, does not have huge margins and really the equity is the people and if the people don't stay, it really it just I've not seen I've only seen it happen one time in my career that it was really done successfully and it's it's.
Speaker 3:That's a tough nut to crack, so it really depends on the owner and what they intend to do with the business. With Megan and me, we always knew that wasn't our intention to sell or anything. Our intention was to be successful in the moment like and to be able to serve the clients while we have the capacity and you know we can and you know we can save the money for retirement or whatever, but not to sell it and to make a big chunk of change if that makes sense. So our goal is just to really do the work and live in the now and not worry about the future when it comes to passing it on or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a really refreshing perspective because I think sometimes people forget about living in the present and just taking care of the clients we have now, because they're so future focused.
Speaker 3:So yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'd love to hear a little bit about what your plans are moving forward. Are you going to continue expansion, finding new people who are these high level specialists to come in and be part of the team? Oh sure, I mean, we're always talking to potential contractors who?
Speaker 3:could be a part of the team and we Are you like oh sure, I mean we're always talking to potential contractors who could be a part of the team and we're still in growth mode right now. I mean, we're a young business. We just started, you know, I started the business in August 2023. And so Megan officially joined like we've officially became co-owners in January of this year, and then we did a launch in February. Right, you know, we did a hard launch in February. We didn't do it in January, honestly, because of the sensitivity around the fires in California. We contributed to the effort. That meant a lot to us because we have, you know, stakeholders and friends who live out there, and so we wanted to show our support for Cali, and also one of our clients has a lot of locations in that area as well. So we kind of pushed our little launch back to the spring. So we're young, we're growing and, yes, our intention is to continue to grow because we have all of these wonderful people we can put to work.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. I probably have several people that I want to send your way Okay great. Who have left the agency world. Want to send your way? Okay, great who have left the agency world and are, you know, awesome, yeah, so that'll be fun. But for those people who are just, you know, maybe mid career there or they're just starting out, they're wanting to work at an agency or they're wanting to get that experience so that they can eventually become the kind of people you, what are some recommendations that you would make for them?
Speaker 3:Like I said I would, if you don't know what niche you want to be in, like the younger marketers, I mean I didn't know, I was kind of I came up through, I would say, like the account service route, which is really more of the generalist you know PCP and medical terms route, to where you kind of know a little bit about everything so that you can see how all of these different pieces fit together and can develop a strategy and plug in those people and those tactics accordingly.
Speaker 3:But I would say I mean definitely get exposure, like I said, in a mid to large size agency, like an Accenture or a bigger agency and even a smaller agency, for that matter. I would just be wary to make sure that they don't put a responsibility on you to do something that you're not ready to do you know what I mean or that you're not comfortable doing. But I do think that it's a great place to learn, to get that hands-on exposure and then to grow from, you know, and it'll open the door to a lot of different opportunities, because I feel like once you've worked in an agency you can work in-house pretty easily because you just have such a broader perspective. That's just been my journey, because I've done both, but everybody's different.
Speaker 2:Amazing both, but everybody's different. Amazing. Well, what's the best way for people to learn more about the agency? To reach out, because there are also people who have businesses of all levels who may want to use your services.
Speaker 3:Sure, so we invite you to follow us on LinkedIn. Like I said, we're trying to build our community and you can find us on LinkedIn at Kinetic Marketing Communications LLC, and our website is KineticComscom, so Kinetic, and then C-O-M-M-Scom.
Speaker 2:Fantastic and Katie, any last words that you want to share with us about where you see the industry heading or what continues to inspire you to build out this model and keep going. What continues to?
Speaker 3:inspire you to build out this model and keep going. I would just say just stay true to yourself, remember, just don't lose heart. We're all humans and keep humanity as part of everything you do. I think we get too caught up in the rat race and lose sight of what's really important in life, and so I would say, you know, just never lose sight with what's important in life. You know I mean, I'm someone who has lost a couple of dear friends in two years, you know, or too young to lose them, and it really puts things into perspective. So just keep it all. Keep it all into perspective and if you feel like something's toxic, it is, you know, and just try to find a way to get out of it and live your best life, because we're not here for very long and I know that's not where the industry is going. It's more of a bigger picture sentiment, but I do feel that's just from my heart what I believe.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming on talking about this model, because I don't know that we've had this conversation on this podcast before about bringing in really high-level specialists. How to form the new normal of what we hope an agency can look like in the future that everybody has more agility. So awesome, awesome, l'm glad, yeah, and thank you to everybody who's watching this episode or listening to it. This is Mediascape Insights from Digital Changemakers, brought to you by USC Annenberg's MS in Digital Media Management Program. I'm your co-host, annika Jackson, and we'll be back again with another great guest next week.
Speaker 1:To learn more about the Master of Science in Digital Media Management program, visit us on the web at dmmuscedu.
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