From Blue Links To AI Overviews: How Brands Stay Discoverable with Bryan Phelps

The search box looks familiar, but the rules underneath are changing fast. We invited Bryan Phelps, CEO of Big Leap, to unpack what actually moves the needle as AI overviews, LLM assistants, and shifting user habits reshape discovery. Brian brings two decades of perspective, from early WordPress experiments to brand-led performance systems for national and growth-stage companies, and he explains why the core pillars of SEO—technical health, intent-true content, and real popularity—still determine whether you’re found and remembered.

We dig into the data behind the headlines: Google’s enduring dominance, how AI summaries siphon long-tail clicks, and why audience research should guide your channel mix. Brian shares a clear content strategy for 2025—build assets that matter beyond search alone, inject firsthand expertise and data, and treat AI mentions as influence rather than last-click conversions. We explore multi-location SEO at scale, paid search and paid social that amplify organic momentum, and a simple north star: help buyers recall your brand when the moment to choose finally arrives.

Transparency and trust run through the conversation. Bryan outlines Big Leap’s AI policy—assistive, not autonomous; no sensitive client data in public models; human review for originality and accuracy—and offers practical ways to use AI to speed research, standardize workflows, and improve consistency. We close on an unexpected edge in a synthetic era: face-to-face connection. Events, workshops, and real conversations rebuild credibility and turn awareness into durable relationships.

If you’re rethinking your search strategy for an AI-shaped world, this conversation gives you a grounded roadmap. Subscribe for more candid talks with digital leaders, share this episode with a teammate who owns growth, and leave a quick review to tell us what you want us to tackle next.

This podcast is proudly sponsored by USC Annenberg’s Master of Science in Digital Media Management (MSDMM) program. An online master’s designed to prepare practitioners to understand the evolving media landscape, make data-driven and ethical decisions, and build a more equitable future by leading diverse teams with the technical, artistic, analytical, and production skills needed to create engaging content and technologies for the global marketplace. Learn more or apply today at https://dmm.usc.edu.

Transcript

Welcome And Brian’s Origin Story

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Mediascape, Insights from Digital Changemakers, a speaker series and podcast brought to you by USC Annenberg's Digital Media Management Program. Join us as we unlock the secrets to success in an increasingly digital world.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

On today's episode of Media Escapes, I am thrilled to have Brian Phelps here with me today. Brian, big leap. What a great name for a digital agency, and particularly for the work that you do and the time that we're in.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Yeah, for sure. It's uh crazy, kind of yeah, super crazy time. We've been doing this for about 20 years, and we thought things were fast moving back then, and it's it's probably 10 times faster these days.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Please, uh, for this audience, talk a little bit about your background, how you originally got into the work of SEO, how that your agency has changed, and then we'll get to the world of today, AI regulations, what's still important about SEO.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I got started in SEO. I was in college. This is back in about 2005 or so. And back then there just wasn't a lot of information out there. I was at uh college here called Utah Valley University that's been in the news lately, but uh, they weren't really teaching a lot about digital marketing. It just was so new at the time. And so yeah, I just was learning on my own. There was a great community out there of you know, bloggers at the time that was uh more popular with our RSS feed readers. We would keep up to date on all the changing uh news. There were some books even that I had I read back then, but yeah, just uh learned by doing. I I started building my own websites and would learn how to drive organic traffic, two of them from search engines, and then monetized it through ads and affiliate networks and got to the point where I was actually just making more money than my day job. So I knew I kind of found my my calling and passion there.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah, amazing. Love it when the thing that you're studying on the side becomes your work, right? I think that is the best of both worlds because that's where we're passion, that's what we're passionate about, and that's what we're investing our time outside of work on.

Core SEO Principles That Endure

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, there's I mean a lot of advice. People talk about following your passions, and I that nothing wrong with that by any means, but there's just a lot of things you don't know exist. And so I didn't know SEO as a passion until I just started getting into it. So I wouldn't, you know, I didn't know as a 12-year-old that that was my passion, but uh, you know, as I got into it, it's one of those things when you do it basically for free. Like I, you know, spent months and years probably building up these websites, but I just loved the process of learning how to build things in WordPress and how to drive traffic. And so even before I was making money, I was just enjoying it. And so it became a passion in a sense.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Yeah. Al the world of SEO search engine optimization has changed but stayed the same in some ways. So can you talk a little bit about those changes that you've seen and how quickly things are moving these days?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah, for sure. I we talk about SEO and we and we have in the same ways for a long time. But people always come to us and say, oh, SEO changes so much. And it obviously does, but we're living in it day to day. But we always kind of come back to some of these core principles. And for us, there's at least you know, three technical, there's kind of a technical SEO world, you know, content and how that plays into SEO. And then kind of the popularity component, what do you want to call that? Kind of your brand, or you know, link building, you know, ties into that kind of the old stuff. So within each of those, like the they changed, you know, the tactics and things changed from year to year and from AI to you know Google search, things like that. But even with AI search, we just find ourselves coming back to these core principles and as we adapt those principles to the current technology that we ultimately can be successful for us and for our clients.

Decoding AI Search And Acronyms

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Yeah. And when we're talking about SEO, there's been so much discussion about GEO, the AI overviews, search through LLMs. So can you distinguish the different parts of search? You know, because obviously there's SEA, SEM, SEO. So can you distinguish between them and why search and SEO is still highly relevant even when we see AI taking over, you know, so much of the recommendation engine?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah, we lots of different acronyms out there. We we try to, I guess, yeah, I'll probably just use the term AI SEO. That's kind of what we use internally, but GEO and LLM, all that LLM search, all kind of tie into that. So it's for us, it's just a pretty strong evolution of how people are searching for information, finding information, finding recommendations. And so when you, you know, Google obviously has kind of dominated that world for the last 20 years, but when you get really to the core of SEO and where it even started back in the early 2000s, it was it's all about discovery content and you know, data discovery, how we help people find the information they're looking for. I think that was one of Google's models, maybe it still is, of just organizing the world's information, right? It's not necessarily about search and 10 blue links or whatever pops up on the screen anymore. And so for us, that's where we are kind of our core. And so while Google still is the lion's share of search, they still, you know, 90% of search out there. We know that the AI world is adapting and Google's trying to adapt to that. And then there's just some new players, you know, in the field there too. So our goal ultimately is to help us find, help our clients be found, I guess, where wherever people are looking for information or information or data or product recommendations. And so we're you know adapting our approach from just you know, Google, where that's dominated and frankly still does, but helping them prepare for the future should that continue to shift.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yeah, and that's one of the things that we hear is that Google is losing, right? That they've lost a lot of search. You're saying they still have 90%. And so I think that's part of the issue as well, is with all of these different types of search or supposed types of search, right? Which news, you know, titles and headlines do we believe, and which ones do we need to set aside? Is this all hype moving into people are now finding companies and searching via LLMs, video, voice search, all of these different techniques that we hear about TikTok being used more by younger generations for search or YouTube. So, how do we cut through all of that noise and really focus on not even just the platform that's most important, but also the message that's most important?

Cutting Hype With Real Data

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah, that's great. I like that a lot. I like to try to balance things and and this is true for search and other things in life a little bit, but read kind of both ends of the spectrum. And so, and and ultimately I I personally tend to favor people that bring data with them, you know, because there's anytime there's something new, uh whether it's you know AI search or AI dev or anything AI, you know, companies, people trying to chase a trend or almost create a market in a sense, and sometimes it's not necessarily you know something they're lying about necessarily, but they're trying to, you know, kind of create something. So there's a lot of great resources out there. One that I I personally like quite a bit is uh a guy named Rand Fishkin, who was kind of a the grandfather of SEO and started a company called SEO Moz back in the early 2000s, and now it's just called Moz. But he is a great person to follow. If you I feel like it's probably one of the more balanced, so he shares real data that he he partners with a data company called Datos, where they actually have clickstream data, so real user data to show what websites they're going to, where they search. And LLMs, a lot of them have put out some data lately too, and they kind of show that the usage isn't as much search, I think, as a lot of people expected. And so I think uh Rand just posted something the other day showing data to support that even if LMs grew at their current pace, it would take them three years to take a percent of market share from Google, which is pretty wild. So that's where I like to look at that. I think for us, we like to look at our clients' data and say, okay, where where's people come, where are people you know finding you and finding your website? And so ultimately that's what we come back to. And to your point with about kind of audiences and messages, I think that kind of is the the biggest answer is really understanding your audience because there are companies that might have more success focusing on AI search. If you're in a more you know tech savvy industry, your audience might be more likely to use LLMs than someone that's you know selling what a consumer product and you might have more people going to Google. So Rand again owns a company now called SparkToro that helps with audience research. So you can actually go in and identify your audience and it will show you like how that audience uses these tools. And typically what we see is you know, Google, YouTube are your top two for most industries, but you can kind of see where do LLMs fall in that mix and how fast are they growing as well. So you know, like, should I be preparing for that? So the AI conversation is always interesting, and it's interesting to look at some big you know data sets, but we always kind of counsel our clients to say, let's look at your data, let's look at your audiences, and then decide how much do we want to prioritize AI versus traditional search.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

And what about our websites? Those of us who are in tech also hear a lot about, oh, websites are gonna go away, we're gonna just be using apps and have agents talking to other agents. But I think for most companies and most consumers, that's not going to happen on the timeline that other people in AI might think it's going to happen on. So, what are the important things that we still need to have on our websites? I've heard, you know, long tail search is still important, like having the right keywords for prioritize one keyword per page or prioritize many. So, what are some things that you recommend in terms of content strategy for what we want everybody to go to, right? Our website.

Websites, Long Tail, And Content Strategy

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yeah, that's that's probably one of the biggest debates that and I and I bounce back and forth on a little bit right now is there's always been kind of this ecosystem for the last 20 years that if I publish good content, I'm gonna get rewarded for that by getting more visitors to my website. And that, again, still is a big driver for Google. But even Google, of course, is showing kind of their AI summaries and kind of stealing that, stealing your content essentially to answer the question. LMs do the same. And most research is showing that that's where traffic loss is happening. It's on that long tail side. And so for us, it's for and for our clients, it's can this content, you know, if we're creating content, obviously we want to create something that is useful outside of search, it's not the only purpose. So, can this help our customers or you know, people at different stages in the funnel that may be more not discovering a product, but you know, doing some research and consideration type activities? A lot of our clients don't want to be, you know, mentioned in LLMs, even if it's maybe not driving clicks, they're attributing kind of a brand value to that. So if I'm researching, you know, about maybe eco-friendly diaper options, something like that, there's value in seeing my company sourced as some of the data for that. And it may not be this easy attribution of they clicked and converted, but they may go to you know, Target or Walmart and see that brand again, and that's where it connects. So we're kind of seeing this resurrection of kind of the brand conversation in the digital world that maybe has declined over the last few years as we tried to really attribute every click to every dollar.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Yeah. And let's talk a little bit about that because you're not just an SEO organization, an SEO expert. You also do paid, you've strategy. And whether I'm talking to clients, whether I'm speaking at a conference or whether I'm speaking to my students, I do talk about using all of the different implements. So paid, earned, shared, and owned media. So I'd love to figure out what parts of those does Big Leap own? And then as well, are there key industries that you prefer to work with or that you found are your sweet spot?

Brand-Led Performance Marketing

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, over the years, and this is really existed before AI kind of came into the scene as SEO was changing a lot back then, where Google was getting better at rewarding brands, more so than just, you know, do you know all the right SEO tricks and you have the right keywords on your page? And so we've been working with our clients for for many years on not just SEO, but like you mentioned, paid search and paid social. And ultimately, we kind of look at it, we call it brand-led performance marketing. So when you think about the different stages of the funnel, you know, how are we introducing people, you know, to your brand and then working through that funnel and then ultimately kind of even beyond that funnel to hopefully have them become promoters of your brand as well. And it really is that kind of holistic approach that we think is the right answer for people going forward. Performance marketing for the last 10 years, I feel like we've probably over-indexed a little bit. Again, it was that maybe CFO approach of I put in one dollar, I got two back, and I can measure every piece of that. But I think the brands that are really poised uh for success in the future are looking at things a little broader and they understand that again, that example of like I might be mentioned in an AI search, and that's gonna help influence someone's purchasing decisions. So, yeah, we really try to help our clients, not just a term that kind of a phrase that we love, a big leap is we help our clients be remembered, not just discovered. So when the time comes to purchase, are they gonna remember our client? And there's actually a report from Forrester, I think, that just came out in the last couple of months that showed in the B2B world that 45% of buyers already have kind of a front runner in mind before they get into a purchasing conversation. And so we need to help our clients, you know, build those relationships, kind of take over some of that mental real estate for their ideal audience well before someone goes and does a search for HR software or whatever they're looking for at the time.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

And that takes us to the next question, which is what kind of clients or what kind of categories do you typically work with?

Who Big Leap Serves Best

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah, so we we for our fortunate, we work across a lot of brands. We have a great team, big team, uh that we're able to kind of dig in and people are able to specialize a bit. And so some of our most common that we work with are what we call multi-location groups. So national brands that have work in a kind of a local presence. So a group like Avis Car Rental, for example, big national, international company, of course, but people search for that on a local level and they look for LAX Car Rental or whatever it may be. And so building kind of a scalable system for that is something that we've had a lot of success with them and and others. So that's kind of, I'd say, where we have like a channel specialty a little bit when you go back to search. So that's kind of our one of our audiences, our second audience, are more of a small and growing business that are between maybe five and twenty-five million dollars in revenue and need someone that can kind of come and build out that full, you know, marketing funnel that we were just talking about, kind of help them get started of building the brand, converting the brand, and turning them into promoters at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah, nice. Well, let's talk a little bit about policy regulation around data consumer privacy, but also now AI policy. I know Utah is a leader, I feel, in the in the country in a lot of this. You have active groups who are working on setting state policies, regulations, where, you know, of course, being the United States, it's a little more difficult because each state has their own priorities and own thoughts. And then national, sometimes they conflict with the state policies, sometimes they match them. So what are you seeing in the market?

Policy, Privacy, And AI Regulation

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, we've seen, yeah, kind of a more recent push. You mentioned Utah, where we're located in headquarters. We see it in California, who's often kind of a leader in consumer privacy and things like that. Uh yeah, trying to push and lead. And I and it's part of me is really excited about it. I think AI is a great tool, but has some potential to cause big, big problems. And so I I always have this kind of balance between let the market build and innovation and not throttle that too much. But I think I mean we've already seen and people have experienced some of the things that can happen with obviously just you know fake video and audio and you know, people getting scammed, things like that. And and so I, you know, I think it's important to start the building that framework, but AI changes, you know, on the daily. So we have to, as long as I think we have some flexibility, you know, built into that, I think it's important. Some of the things we're seeing with, you know, I think in Utah and California, if I remember correctly, is just stating, you know, if you're calling into an AI agent or if AI, if your content's created by AI, that that needs to be, you know, labeled as such. And so I think there's some good things that we can do to, again, that to that level, kind of label and be transparent about it, that's not gonna necessarily throttle the technology and the innovation that's gonna come with it.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the push-pull, right? How much privacy do we need to have? I mean, I was just listening to a previous episode of the AI Daily Brief, one of my favorite daily podcasts on AI and what's going on in the world. And I recall, and I can't remember what the company is right now, but there were talks about having companies go in and mine, be able to partner with enterprise organizations and really take private data from these organizations to create more structure and to train models. And that's where I think the biggest cringe fact, I don't know what word to use right now, that we're finding, right? Is how much information can you allow as training data before everything that's your secret sauce in your organization, right? Your own IP that you don't necessarily want to get out there, your customers and all of their information and behaviors gets out.

Big Leap’s AI Policy And Use Cases

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, it's a great point. I think important again, going back to that consumer privacy uh aspect. There's the realistic scenarios, you know, people that are really gonna manipulate scam, whatever, probably aren't gonna follow whatever legislation's built out there. So I don't know how much you can protect against that. And there's of course already laws that protect against fraud, but it is that day-to-day consumer privacy element. And hopefully we've learned a lot about that over the last 20 or 30 years in the digital world where we've probably, as uh, we probably lagged in terms of protecting you know people's data. And so hopefully we can kind of continue that progress that's been made and apply it, you know, to that AI world to protect businesses and and individuals, like you said.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah. How do you use AI in Big Leap? And what do you share with your customer base to let them know how you're safeguarding their data when you're using generative AI?

Quick Wins vs Durable SEO

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah, so credit to uh person on our leadership team, Jamie Thaler. She's fortunately we have her, she's pushed us uh two years ago at least, I think, to have an AI policy that's published on our website. And so you can actually go and visit that, but it it lays out some of the different you know policy that we have a big leap, which there's, I think, can't remember off the top of my head, 10 to 12 bullet points maybe, but they they kind of boil down to a few things. And ultimately for us, we you know view AI as an assistive tool for what we do. And so we don't rely on it fully to you know create and publish content to run strategy for accounts, but how can it really enable us to be better and do more, learn faster in a lot of ways? And so that's always been our style and approach. And you know, at times it's not the popular answer. You know, we've had leads come in that want to say, we want to create a thousand pieces of content with AI, and we you know kind of caution against why that's not a good thing. And sometimes they've gone and done it. We've actually uh a group that we're familiar with did that and had some quick wins, and I think they were kind of uh told, you know, coming back with a told you so, but that was pretty short-lived. And eventually Google kind of catches up and and it doesn't perform as well in the long run. Um, so anyway, going back to the policy, really kind of assistive in what we do. We don't, you know, put clients' private data on anything that could be used as public learning for LLMs. And internally, you know, other uses we have, we are starting to actually be able to build. We don't have a large web development team, but we've actually been able to build and create efficiencies within just our own processes and uh even doing research and gathering data, you know, for our clients, the stuff that we traditionally would do very manually. And so we're seeing some of those use cases for us in terms of just being you know more efficient and more even more accurate in a lot of ways, you know, being able to be consistent with clients across a team of about 70 or 80 people, a big leap has been a really big value for us and great for our clients as well.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

That's fantastic. And I wanted to go back to your comment about the quick wins, because of course, people share on LinkedIn. Oh, I I created all my content, all of my SEO work is done through AI. And sometimes you see that they have many, many pages indexed in many different languages, and that's a win because then they're bringing in traffic from different countries if that's their goal. But you just said something really important, which is that they got some quick wins, but it's not a long-lasting strategy.

Standout Differentiation And IRL Trust

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah, and that's again, looking at 20 years of SEO history, that's that's maybe been our differentiator in a way, is that we or we try to look at the big picture and not the the shortcuts and the quick wins. And you know, frankly, people maybe doing that and making a ton of money short term, and that that could be fine, right? You rent and repeat that. It's just not who we are, and and the type of businesses we work with are usually looking for kind of the longer lasting, bigger picture world. And so, yeah, so what we've seen is people, you know, creating massive amounts of content or or whatever it may be, and short term, yeah, maybe ranking, driving traffic, monetizing that, but typically what we've seen is that decrease. And and ultimately, you know, I think talking about you know some of the AI, especially in the content world, is is it just becomes more common, right? You already hear about on LinkedIn how much of LinkedIn is just AI generated content, how much people's you know, website content is. And that's where you know, if you fast forward years from now, it's like no one's gonna care about what you know content's created, right? It's all kind of the same. AI kind of gives you the average of all the content on the internet. And so if I can create a thousand pages of content on a topic, so can you and a thousand other people, and it becomes kind of useless in a sense. And so our approach with our clients has been to and and going back to the kind of the services we offer with our clients is helping them understand kind of what their unique view is of the world and their experience, and how do we apply that to content? And AI can help us facilitate, you know, executing and writing on the content where we're bringing in real experience, real knowledge, real data from our clients that makes their content unique from anything else anyone else could create because it is unique to them.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Is there one thing that you'd like to leave with our audience today that they should be investing time and energy and perhaps finances into as well right now that will help them make the difference, help make you know, the difference for their brand when it comes to SEO and paid search?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah, that's a great question. I I think with what we're seeing in, like I was kind of just describing with AI content, but with the marketing in general, is how do you differentiate? That's always the marketing question for us. That's really come back to a lot of companies not really understanding their unique view of the world. And so if companies and people can spend more time understanding that it really can apply on a personal level too, just with your own, you know, social media and things like that, if you can take that and apply that, there's always that relevancy there. If you feel like you're trying to just automate everything and hit numbers like that, it often, you know, like I said, is kind of short-lived. So really understanding, you know, what we call an ideology of, you know, what's your view on things, what's your your mantra, and then how do you apply that to your marketing efforts? And even, you know, as much as we're a digital world, you know, we're seeing that on the in the physical world, more and more importance. It's we're getting to a point where people almost can't believe or trust. And I think it'll probably get worse in that sense of what you read online. So, you know, I we see come maybe kind of an interest and rise in some of the we joke around calling it face-to-face marketing, or I saw someone across that, maybe a bigger influencer.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Which is sales, right? It's like being in the same room with people, having real conversations. And so I think for us, we're always, you know, want to stay as relevant as we can, and on top of that, but we kind of have to come back to center sometimes and make sure we're not losing a lot of those, you know, human personal connections as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah, absolutely. And to that point, you have some events or you have a big event that you're putting on.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah, we are hosting an AI-focused event here in Utah with uh yeah, a lot of local business leaders and uh chambers and things like that that we're yeah, hosting here in Utah. So if anyone's listening in Utah, you're welcome to attend. You can message me and we'll get you in there. But it's a great event. This will be our second one that we've partnered with the chamber on to do. But we talk about everything from real life use cases on how people are using it in their day-to-day to you know, policy and ethics and morals uh as it comes day eye. So it's a pretty well-rounded event that we put on. Again, our goals uh we've been doing it right now, the schedule's been kind of twice a year, but we might have to speed that up.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah. Yeah. But that hits a lot of the things that you've spoken about, just the trust and that you're building, being able to work together and collaborate, being face to face. I think these things, like you said, are just going to become more and more important. I'm seeing it myself. I'm going to a lot of live events and those connections that you can make in person, just by meeting, even just meeting somebody that you've been speaking to virtually for a while, it changes the nature, the chemistry of your relationship in a really positive way.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

So Yeah, we've enjoyed it. We do a lot. We we we were talking about this recently as a leadership team. Obviously, our clients come to us for certain goals and you know, marketing kinds of things, but there's almost an experience element to that as a differentiator sometimes in the digital world. So we like I was just describing, put on events. We do, you know, different uh events around you know the country with with clients and find a way to get in person. Obviously, we meet up uh with a lot of our clients in person to collaborate with what we're doing with their marketing team and and other agencies they're working with as well. And so obviously we're we're a digital company, we love the kind of digital marketing world, but yeah, it's just sometimes no replacement for some FaceTime.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Yeah. That's fantastic. Well, and we'll definitely link your LinkedIn in the show notes as well as the Big Leap website so people can learn more about you, the organization, and your upcoming events in case they are in Utah or just want to go to Utah for one of the events.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Yeah, Brian, thank you so much for joining me on Media Escape today. It's been really insightful. I look forward to continuing to have conversations with you about what we see in these quick but slow changes in the AA world and SEO.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Awesome. Yeah, thank you so much. It was a great, great conversation. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Yep. Thank you to everybody who's listening to this episode or watching it as well. I'll be back again with another great episode of Media Escape, sharing expertise from one of our amazing guests. See you soon.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

To learn more about the Master of Science and Digital Media Management program, visit us on the web at dmm.usc.edu.