Find Your Lady Tribe

Journey to Food Freedom: Navigating Emotional Eating with Jane Pilger

• Brenda Billings Ridgley

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When Jane Pilger joined me for a heart-to-heart, we didn't just chat; we ventured deep into the emotional labyrinth of food freedom and body trust. Our candid conversation spanned from Jane's valiant conquest over a 25-year battle with binge eating disorder to the eye-opening realization that traditional eating disorder treatments might just be fanning the flames they aim to extinguish. Together, we unravel the snarls of self-doubt and self-sabotage that entangle our eating habits, highlighting the power of internal safety and trust as beacons to guide us through the stormy seas of dietary struggles.

Navigating the tempestuous waters where food meets emotion, Jane and I embarked on a quest to understand the 'why' behind our food choices. We discovered that the anticipation of scarcity – think of the great toilet paper hoard of 2020 – can lead to a feast-or-famine mentality in our diets. By fostering a compassionate curiosity within, we learned how to better understand our emotional appetite, its origins, and how to approach it with the finesse of a seasoned emotional gourmet. Our dialogue serves as a map to understanding that emotional eating isn't just about lack of willpower; it's a complex dance with our nervous system and unprocessed feelings that requires patience and presence to master.

As we wrapped up our heartfelt exchange, we celebrated the indomitable spirit of the 'Jane' in every tribe – that force of nature who drives us forward with intention and connection. We mused over the art of crafting strong, vibrant communities, both personally and professionally, and reveled in the joy that blossoms from shared narratives and experiences. Jane's wisdom underscored the transformative impact of nurturing these connections, and we left our listeners with a treasure trove of actionable insights to build their own tribes, rich in trust and unity. Join us for this soul-nourishing episode that's more than just a conversation – it's a journey towards embracing the essence of who we are, one bite at a time.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome back, beautiful souls, to another season of Find your Lady Tribe. My name is Brenda Ridgely, your host. You know there's a certain kind of magic that happens when women of a certain age come together. We've weathered some storms, discovered our strengths and are ready to tap into the wisdom we've accumulated to create our next big thing. This season we're diving deep into the wall spring of longevity. We'll explore how to nurture our minds, bodies and spirits so we can not only live longer but live vibrantly.

Speaker 1:

Whether you're dreaming of traveling, starting a creative pursuit, building an empire or even saving the world Yep, that's right, saving the world. This season is your guide to building the foundation for a life filled with purpose, joy and an unstoppable sense of self. So grab your cup of tea, settle in and get ready to be inspired. But before we get started, I want to remind you to subscribe. Give us a thumbs up if you're enjoying the show and share it with your fellow midlife goddesses. Together, let's create a wave of empowered women who are redefining what it means to age gracefully, powerfully and with a whole lot of Lady Tribe spirit.

Speaker 2:

Hello everybody and welcome to Find your Lady Tribe where we continue this season talking all about longevity in midlife Today. I am super excited to have my friend, jane Pilger here with us today. Jane empowers women who feel out of control around food to develop food freedom and body trust. She helps women who have been struggling, often for decades, to find the missing link, to go from fighting with their bodies to working with them. Whether you are a binge eater, someone who doesn't trust themselves with certain foods, or someone who just doesn't understand why they behave the way they do sometimes, she's got you. She will teach you how to understand your behavior, how to develop trust with yourself and how to cultivate the safety that you need to navigate life. Her approach is rooted in the science of the brain and body, trauma-informed and filled with compassion. Jane, thank you so much for being here today.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'm so excited to be here and have this conversation with you.

Speaker 2:

Yes, it's fabulous and I will have to admit to everybody I think many women do I've always kind of had a struggle with food myself. Yeah, never been where I wanted to be for very long. I'm either dieting or I am not dieting. There's hardly ever in between. So I'm really excited to dive into this with you and learn. First let's. I'd love to hear a little. Tell us a little bit about you and why you're really passionate about this topic.

Speaker 3:

Well, I'm so passionate about this topic because of exactly what you said. You are not alone. So many women I would say most women have struggled with food and with their bodies in some way or another. But we all feel like there's something wrong with me. Why do I do this? And there's a lot of shame and judgment around it and because of this, we don't talk about it. We don't talk about it Even with our closest friends. There's just kind of this like oh, if anybody knew what I did behind closed doors, they would think these really bad things because I think these really bad things about myself. So the reason that I'm so passionate about it is really twofold. I mean my own.

Speaker 3:

I have a 25 plus year struggle with binge eating disorder. That, I would say. My very first binge started my first semester in college and I don't remember a lot about the binge itself, but essentially what I binged on was I received a care package of little miniature candy bars and I sat on the floor and I opened this box and I ate every single candy bar in the box and what I remember is just being sitting on the floor, being surrounded by this empty box and all of these empty wrappers, just thinking what have I just done? But I wouldn't tell anybody, I didn't want to talk about it, and I literally that that day. Then I I spent years, decades trying to stop this awful, terrible thing that I was doing. But what I didn't realize was that the things that I was doing to try to stop were actually the very things that were keeping me in the cycle to begin with. And it took me a long time years, therapists, two rounds of intensive outpatient treatment at a local eating disorders treatment center, so many different things until I finally kind of found like the missing pieces for me, which were safety and trust.

Speaker 3:

So it's like building safety with myself, not only with myself and my nervous system, but also safety to be around any food, trust to be around trusting myself to be around any food. And once I those were kind of to me the missing pieces, and once those came in, everything about my relationship with myself and with food just completely changed. And so now is really my passion to help people really understand what they do with food, understand why they do what they do. So that because what I find is, as soon as you understand it, it's like oh so I'm not actually broken because we just think we. We think we're broken because we act this way. With food. It's like no, no, no, that's not it at all. You really aren't broken. There's such a really good reason why, and when we can understand those reasons, then we can start to see ourselves differently and then we approach ourselves differently. So now we're no longer fighting with ourselves, we're working with ourselves.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you say that you went through years of help trying to figure this, all this out, and but now you help women. Do you know? Discover this, the reasons? What can you share your process at all of how you for?

Speaker 3:

women? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I believe there are eight primary reasons why people struggle with food whether you're binging, whether you just feel sometimes you feel really out of control, whether it's like oh you know, I, I know I'm not hungry, but I'm just I just want to eat all the time. I what I the. Here's the way that I like to to really talk about it and I like to see it as I use the analogy of we're looking at a binge or a situation with food where you're kind of eating, let's say, you're eating in ways you don't want to be eating. I like to see this as a lights on the dashboard. It's showing us there's something going on, there's something underneath the hood.

Speaker 3:

Now, what most people do in most approaches is they think the lights are the problem, so the food is the problem. My body is the problem, so I need to cut these foods out of my diet. I need to change the way that my body looks or behaves or whatever it's like. We're looking at this, at the the kind of the symptoms, thinking that's that's what we need to change, but what I see is that what we really need to do is get under the hood. And when we can get under the hood, then we can see what's causing those lights to come on in the first place. So most people get it wrong and just focusing on the food or you know, I'm just going to take these out or I'm only going to eat at these certain times that's focusing on the lights themselves. But what I do is I say, no, let's get under the hood and see what is causing these lights to come on in the first place. And so when we do that, when we really look under the hood, I have a tool as a diagnostic tool, where we basically go under the hood and we look at, okay, what are the primary things that cause lights to come on in the first place? Then we can look. When we look at those, we can see, ah, okay, it might've been this, it might've been this, it might've been this, and for each one of those things then we go into, there is a, there's a solution for all of it.

Speaker 3:

So the number one reason why we end up in this cycle, where we just we where we stay stuck with food, kind of over and over again, is shame and judgment. We have this shame about what we're doing, we have this judgment against ourselves. And so whenever we're in shame, we want to hide right, we want to get away from, we want to get away from ourselves, we want to hide from ourselves, and that just perpetuates the cycle. So if we continue with this analogy of the lights on the dashboard, shame and judgment are like a 50 pound weight that you put on top of the hood. We can't even get under the hood if we're in shame and judgment. And so shame and judgment is just the things we've all said to ourselves before why can't I figure this out? What's wrong with me, I'm out of control, I'm broken, all of these things. They don't even allow us to open the hood. So if we can set aside shame and judgment and we can bring in curiosity, like what is causing these lights to come on, like, can we really just put that aside, take the weight off? Let's really look under the hood.

Speaker 3:

Then we can look at the other factors, which one of the primary factors is restriction, whether it's mental restriction, whether it's physical restriction. We're not allowing ourselves to eat certain food, and we've all done this whether we're saying, you know, don't eat these types of foods, don't eat at these certain times of day, or even just I mean a sentence that has come through my mind so many times I couldn't even tell you, don't eat too much. Just that sentence alone is going to set the brain up to think some starvation may be coming. For those of us who've been in this perpetual diet cycle which, by the time we're in our midwives I mean, how many diets have we all been on? It's so every one of them. Uh, exactly All of them. We could name them all Right.

Speaker 3:

But here's what happens is the brain and the nervous system. It's like oh, we've had this before, we're not going to allow that to go again, especially when we've been on these crazy restrictive diets. The brain doesn't know the difference between a diet and literal starvation, and the brain is always going to want to keep you alive. So restriction, literally, is one of the very key things that either starts the pattern or keeps us, keeps us in the pattern. So that's like that's a huge one.

Speaker 3:

The next one is nervous system dysregulation and so this. You know we can get into all kinds of factors about the nervous system itself, but at the, at the very basic level, if you are not feeling safe for any reason, then a lot of us have figured out over time that food can be a a source of comfort, a source of safety. So we have a lot of people I would say the two primary reasons that start people into a binge, into like a binge cycle or into these patterns with food. A lot of times it's restriction or it may be some sort of trauma and literally we have when we are, whether we're younger or whenever it was. We kind of like, wisely, figure out that food can be a source of comfort or a source of escape if we don't have any other comfort or escape for us, especially when we're hiding in that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, exactly that's. That's our comfort, right? Yes, and I found I don't feel like I've been a binger so much as personally as maybe just generally too much, and maybe that's a thought process. But I feel like I eat pretty healthy, but then when I do know that I'm really going to hit it hard on Monday as far as the diet, maybe I'll have that extra little piece of chocolate or whatever that I eat. That I wouldn't normally do, because that's everything's changing on Monday.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, that's exactly right. And so your brain knows it's like that's coming Restriction is coming, famine is coming, scarcity is coming. So I kind of have to, because I don't know when it's going to be available again. Then I'm going to get as much as I can right now. So the best example I have for this that we can all relate to is remember back in March of 2020, when toilet paper was scarce and all of us were like, oh my gosh, I might run out of toilet paper. And we went out and we bought. We either bought like crazy quantities of toilet paper to make sure that we would not run out, or I remember myself buying this like awful, like single ply, worst toilet paper ever, because I thought that I was going to run out. And so it's the same. It's the same type of thing that that our brain does with anything that seems scarce or that we think might we may not have access to again. So, yes, that absolutely happens.

Speaker 3:

So the nervous system is a huge, huge component in terms of the what happens under the hood, and then we have other components in there, too, which are connecting with our body. You know so many of us we live from the neck up right. We're just in our heads the entire time and so when we're disconnected from our bodies, we don't really even. We just don't have that connection. So we may just be completely disconnected from our bodies. We don't really even. We just don't have that connection, so we may just be completely disconnected from what's happening within. That also is our emotional capacity. So I consider the term emotional capacity is your capacity or your ability to be with any emotion and a lot of us, for many reasons. Maybe it was the home we grew up in, it was what was taught to us, particularly, I think, those of us around middle age. You know, kids now are being taught so many amazing things about emotions that we just simply were not taught and many of us were not modeled.

Speaker 3:

And I know for me that was a huge component in the start of my binging. I mean it for sure started because I was on a very restrictive diet, trying to lose weight as I was going into college. But also I went away to college and here I am, away from all of my primary support system and I'm feeling these really big, intense emotions. I didn't know what to do with them, I didn't know how to name them. I didn't know what they were when I was younger. The way a big emotions were handled in our house. We just went to our room. We went to the room, I slammed the door, came out the next day like everything was fine. We never talked about it.

Speaker 3:

So then I discovered this is one of the things I discovered in therapy and kind of eating disorder therapy was my binges were a way that I slammed the door on myself. I just slammed the door on my emotions. I slammed the door on myself. I just slammed the door on my emotions. I slammed the door on myself. It was like nope, don't want that, I'm just going to disconnect. I have no capacity to be with any of these emotions. So then I'm just going to eat instead of dealing with that. So that emotional capacity is another reason thing that happens under the hood.

Speaker 1:

Hey, lady, just wanted to take a moment and interrupt right now in the middle of the show to ask you to subscribe. Yes, press that button right now. This show is all about you, the midlife woman. Let's do this thing together, so join us subscribe now.

Speaker 3:

Then we have what I think a lot of us kind of see when we talk about food is that coping mechanism. This is how I cope and you know it's so. That's part of that emotional capacity. Sometimes we're just trying to control, we're trying to control everything, we're trying to control our bodies, we're trying to control everything around us us and sometimes, when it feels like we don't really have control in other places, if we can, oh, if I can just control what I'm doing with my food or what I'm doing with my body there's that aspect of it.

Speaker 3:

Then there's a habit. I mean you do anything repeatedly, it becomes a habit, and a lot of times people try to approach food issues and food things from the habit perspective. Oh well, just stop doing that. But we can't only look at it as a habit when all of these other factors are at play too, because if you only address the habit but we're not addressing the emotional capacity or the nervous system or the restriction or the last one is the way you talk to yourself, your internal dialogue. So if we're not addressing those things, then just you know, trying to apply the latest habit hacks and book, it's not going to do it because all of these other factors are are at play here.

Speaker 2:

If we could only take the book and just live it, right. If there was just some way because that really happens, because we have so many aha moments as we're going to seminars or reading books, or it kind of has to have some repetitiveness to it and then implementation somehow consciously right.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yes, yes, exactly, and that's just it is. It's like the first step is awareness. We have to become aware of what we're doing. So often with food. We do it without awareness, it's just I'm not even paying attention, you know, there's just no awareness to it. So we bring that awareness in, but then we don't. We can't just stop at awareness. Then we have to start to see.

Speaker 3:

Okay, once after awareness is in, now what we kind of have to realize we actually really do have a choice. A lot of times we kind of think, oh, I'm, I'm helpless, I don't have a choice. This just happens to me. But when we bring awareness in and we start to understand all the little components that cause those lights to go on, then we can really start to see and bringing in choice and kind of, so that we can see, oh, there really is more of a choice. When it can, when we can shift it from compulsion, I just feel like compelled, like I have no choice, I have no control into. Now I can actually choose. I go from reacting, reacting to responding. That's then where where we really then and we do that over and over and over again to create new pathways and new patterns.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's so interesting. So, Jane, you know a lot of this journey seems very isolated alone. You're kind of on the solo. How can our tribe be supportive? Or how could we be supportive? Because you don't want someone being the food police to your that would be like just bring me those cookies versus how? How can our French friendships support us during this and how can we reach out for help in anything that you can think about that? And how can we?

Speaker 3:

reach out for help in anything that you can think about that. Yeah, that's such a great question. I think really so much is is we can really start with, I think with any any friendship, so much of it starts with us sharing our own experience, right, and kind of like that this is, this is something that either, maybe this is something that I struggle with. This is something that's a challenge for me. Do you ever have I have these things Does? Do you ever have anything like that? Tell me what it's like for you.

Speaker 3:

This is what it's like for me, and I love kind of coming to a place from like, um, understanding, like help me understand. Like how is your, like I kind of here's how I sometimes think about food or think about my body. Help me understand how you think about it. And you can do this with friends who, like if you see a friend who are you're like wow, I wish I could just do that, or think in that way they can, they can offer a lot of help in that Like how do you think about these things? Like help me understand. But you also can see somebody. If you see somebody else in your life who you think I think there's some struggles there you can also I love the question Help me understand, like help me understand the way that you think about this, and we don't have to try to change anything. It's just like help me understand for you.

Speaker 3:

Here's the way that I think about it, and I think that what I have found for myself. I did not ever want to talk to anybody about it because I was so concerned about my appearance and what people would think about me, but I have found I literally can think of one person ever in all of the people that I have shared with my, my challenges with, I literally can think of one person who I honestly think she had her own struggles and I think she didn't know how to respond, and so it it. She didn't respond poorly, like she didn't say anything mean or judgy, it was just kind of like flat and I was like, oh okay, well, you're not my person to talk to about this. But the other 99% were like, wow, thank you, here's my story. Oh, wow, I had no idea. I always saw you in this way. But here's my story. Here's what's true for me.

Speaker 3:

So I found that the more we can really be open and vulnerable about our own struggles. It just it's almost like it gives people permission to be vulnerable about our own struggles. It just it's almost like it gives people permission to be vulnerable about their own, because, no, not none of us are perfect at all, but we kind of think for some reason that we are like supposed to be, because that's what it's what people share. They share the kind of like perfect, amazing parts of their lives.

Speaker 2:

And we're adults and we should have it all figured out and all that. So, yeah, I totally agree. I think that many will worry about that one 10% that may not respond perfectly and then, because of that, avoid the other 90% that could really support you, because being real and being honest and being vulnerable is endearing and it only deepens the connections and I feel like just having those conversations that this is how is this for you, this is how it is for me, and you know, and it's, it's a dance. You don't go straight to the right thing in your life, the thing that you're most, you know, fearful and afraid of sharing. You work your way there, but when you can really be seen in that darkest hour and still loved because you will be with the right people, yes, I think there's healing right there.

Speaker 3:

So much healing, so much healing. And yeah, and we really, we really, I think, no matter what whether we're talking about food challenges or any other challenge in your life we are not supposed to go through life alone. We're not like healing happens in community, healing happens with support, and what I find so powerful is when you do get other women together who have food struggles and then they start to see like, oh my gosh, I'm not alone in this, I thought I was the only one. Then there's like this um, it's like you almost then give yourself permission to drop the narrative that you've had for so long that there's something wrong, that I'm broken, that I do these things.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, how can we all be so wrong?

Speaker 3:

Right, exactly, right, exactly.

Speaker 2:

It's not. You know, normal is just boring first of all, the normal normal. Normal is just boring First of all if you have the normal normal. But anyway, we're all there's, there's. Normal is really just not really defined very well. So, jane, could you just give us a few tips on what your advice would be around longevity, around your topic, you know, about food and wellness and diet and that whole diet mentality.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So the thing that I really start I always start talking with clients about is really defining for yourself what type of eater do I want to be. Like really thinking about your identity as an eater. Because it's possible, like, think about this for yourself. If you're listening to this podcast right now, what would I say is my identity as an eater right now? And so some people are. We're all going to answer it differently, but some people, a lot of people, say I can't trust myself, I can't be around certain foods. I'm on again, off again. You know, we kind of think about the way that we identify with ourselves as an eater. Like that really is the starting point. So I love to start there. Really think for yourself.

Speaker 3:

There's no right or wrong answer here. It's like what identity do you want to have as an eater and paint a really clear picture of that. Because if you have a picture of what you want for yourself, then you can. It's like you've put in the GPS into your system. This is where I'm going, because here's what we know about the brain. The brain will either, if we have a picture that we're going towards, the brain will go towards it If we continue to reinforce the GPS. This is where we're going. Otherwise, we will just keep repeating what we've always done, Like these are the options that we have.

Speaker 3:

So, rather than just seeing yourself as somebody who's broken, somebody who doesn't trust themselves, somebody who's on again, off again, somebody who's, you know, kind of perpetually on a diet, who's you know, kind of perpetually on a diet, perpetually trying to lose 30 pounds, whatever it is, think about what do I want for myself and start to really picture what that would be. And then, okay, if I, if I am going to become this eater, this type of eater, like spend some time really with that, because it literally is different for everybody, then what would need to change? And if those things need to change, it's not just like I'm changing the food I'm eating. It's like what are those things that might be going on under the hood? These are the things that need to change, which is maybe it may be the food.

Speaker 3:

If we're talking about restriction, there may be just nervous system regulation, learning about my nervous system, increasing my emotional capacity, increasing the way, changing my internal dialogue, the way that I talk to myself, Like these are the things that, when we really change these things and we have a very clear picture. This is who I want to be as an eater and we start to address the things under the hood. We naturally become that, and what I love is that the challenges with the food, they start to fall away. We don't have to, like, fight ourselves and, you know, come up with all these crazy rules for ourselves in order to, you know, quote unquote behave around food. It's like no, this is just who I am now and I've addressed these other things that were creating those lights to come on in the first place.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that setting a clear intention of who you want to be, who, who, if you know everything were perfect in your life, who. What would that look like as far as the, the kind of eater you are, and then going there and really feeling it out and getting the feels, and then you know setting up your life around that and then going towards it. Otherwise you're just what I call floundering here, doing the same old thing over and over again and going what's? Why is it not feeling any better? Why, how? Why can't I get out of this funk?

Speaker 3:

Right. And then every Monday, you know, every Sunday you're saying tomorrow I'm going to, I'm going to be better, right, and then on Sunday we're eating extra because tomorrow it's all going to change. It's like then we're just on that, that loop that we've been on over and over again.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, I think, jane, the work you're doing is wonderful and so needed, and there's such a wide spectrum of women who could use your health for different, very different things. How, how does everyone find you and get ahold of you?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah. So a few places to find me. My website is janepilgercom, so easy enough there, if you want to know the prime, I have a quiz on my website that you can find out, you can discover the primary reason why you struggle with food. And so if you want to take that quiz to get the primary reason why and then three tips that will help you with that reason, you can go to janepilgercom forward slash quiz. The other place is I have a podcast and it's called binge breakthrough and I share all kinds of uh tips on the binge breakthrough podcast.

Speaker 3:

And what's so amazing about it is there are there are a lot of people who absolutely identify with binge eating, and there are other people who are like, just like you said, brenda, it's like I don't really think binging is my thing, but I for sure have struggled with food for a long time. I get so many people who tell me I listened to your podcast. I don't really binge, but I get so much out of your podcast. So if food challenges are a thing for you, the podcast will be um very helpful as well.

Speaker 2:

Wonderful. Thank you so much, and I'll put all of your information in the show notes. Everywhere you're finding this, whether it be a podcast, youtube, whatnot. Jane, I always like to ask my guests. My final, very important question is how do you tribe?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, such a great question I have. I have these tribe, and friendship is so important to me, particularly my female friends, and when I think about it I kind of have three different pockets of friends. So whether it's my pockets of friends from my triathlon world or from my way back in the day world or my kind of current friend circle world, I think the biggest thing is just really being intentional about it. So you know, my, my ladies from back in the day, we go out to drinks or dinner, my triathlon folks maybe we go, maybe we also go out for drinks, or we go out for a ride or a run, um, or maybe my, my inner circle we do dinner and game night. But I think for all of it it's just it's being intentional.

Speaker 3:

The intentional I'm, and actually generally people say you're so good about it, cause I'm usually the one who we're at, we're there and I'm like, okay, everybody get out your phone. When are we doing this again? Let's get it on the calendar, because otherwise you know you, you get busy and all of a sudden you're like wait a second, it's been a long time we haven't gotten together. So I I love kind of taking on that role of making sure, I make sure one that we, we schedule and we get together and that there's a picture to actually document what happened. So then I'm usually the one who's like, okay, mark your calendar, here's our picture of this one and mark your calendars for uh, for the next time, cause it's it's so important.

Speaker 3:

But just like anything, even with food, we have to be intentional. It's like what do you want to create? What do you want? And then taking the steps to make sure it happens, cause these things don't just, they don't just happen on their own, and they don't just happen because you create a picture of it, like the picture is amazing, and then you have to take the steps towards the picture that you want. Otherwise then you just sit around and you're like, oh, I'm not there yet. That feels, that doesn't feel any good either. It's just like take little steps towards it so that you know you're moving closer and you're getting closer to that picture every day.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and transition takes time, but every step forward, whether it be a baby step or a leap, is it's huge progress. So you should give yourself those for that. So every tribe needs a Jane. You absolutely someone who makes it happen. So I so appreciate that. I I totally agree. You have to be very intentional and be at be there. Book a meeting from a meeting If you want to get in business terms, you know when you're together. Book the next thing If it's two weeks from now, a month from now, whatever you manage. I love that. So thank you for sharing your tribe tips there. And you know, in my book I end it with this phrase and I always think that the podcast is the same way with you and myself and our listeners when three or more gather, we are a tribe. So thank you so much for being here, jane. I so appreciate you and I can't wait to connect further.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much for this conversation. It's been great.

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Brenda Billings Ridgley

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