Two Powerful Strategies to Protect Yourself in Narcissistic Relations

In this episode of The Narcissism Decoder, I’m joined by therapist and author Crystal DeSantis. Together we explore the complexities of navigating relationships with narcissistic partners. Crystal talks about the importance of self-awareness in understanding relationship dynamics and creating safety as a foundation for healthy connections. We also dive into why many individuals seek emotional connection but struggle to achieve it, noting that true connection requires both vulnerability and skill. We clarify the difference between emotional dumping and genuine vulnerability and explore how relationships can become transactional rather than deeply emotional. Finally, we focus on building essential communication and conflict resolution skills that pave the way for relationship success. This episode offers actionable insights for those striving to create more meaningful and fulfilling partnerships.

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Transcript

Dr. Mazzella (00:00.3)
They seemingly want a connection. Now, the manifest story is they want a connection. But the truth is they are with somebody, they paired up with somebody who may have these characteristics of narcissism. you could be correct, right, Chris? Like absolutely correct that they really want this connection. But oftentimes what I see is they say they want it, but they really, you know, they're ambivalent. Let's say at the very that's maybe the best way to say it. It's not that they do or they don't.

but they have very mixed feelings about it.

Dr. Mazzella (00:38.606)
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Narcissism Decoder. I'm your host, Dr. Anthony Mazzella. I'm thrilled to have you join us for today's episode because we have an incredible guest, Crystal DeSantis. Crystal is a licensed marriage and family therapist based in Austin, Texas with expertise in relationships and trauma. She's the creator of the Strong Model of Relational Therapy.

a trauma informed attachment based approach, and the author of a guide on modern relationships for men. I'm very excited to hear from Crystal. So let's get right into it. Welcome, Crystal. Thank you so much for joining us today. Do you think you could start by telling us about your work and what you mentioned to me in our discussion before we started recording? I think it was something like.

One of the most common questions you hear from men with whom you work is something like, is my partner a narcissist? Yeah. So I'm Crystal. Thank you for the great introduction. am primarily a couples therapist, or I guess I would say a relationship therapist, right? So I'm trained in marriage and family therapy. So I do tend to work with people that are struggling to understand their relationships and whether or not their relationships are healthy. And I think the word narcissist

The label narcissist has become very available, very popular in social media. It's like kind one of those buzzwords that's just really caught on. And so I hear that question a lot from people who come to therapy, right? It's like, my partner a narcissist? Yeah. And I guess I always just want to start with kind of breaking down, well, what does that mean to you? What is the experience of being in a relationship with this person? What is it like for you? And so that helps me kind of understand why they're using this term.

and what it means to them. So that's always my first goal is trying to understand what does the word narcissist mean to you? So I'm very curious, do they typically have a good sense of what that means? Or is it just like a word that they've picked up and they're applying it now in sort of a pejorative way? Yeah.

Dr. Mazzella (02:48.802)
That's the main, again, we use labels as humans to try to make sense of things and put things into categories that we can understand behavior. It's like our brains are giant pattern seeking machines. Sometimes if we can put a label on someone, it feels like we can distance ourselves from their behavior or categorize them in some way. That's really the first thing that I want to understand is, there's a lot of different dynamics here, but if somebody's coming,

let's say at the end of a relationship or after they've left a relationship and they're grieving and they're struggling to understand and make sense of their experience. Maybe they were betrayed, they were cheated on and they find this term narcissist and they're like, aha. So if my partner was a narcissist, then maybe that will help me make sense of my experience. And so that's always what I want to understand. Like how is labeling your partner a narcissist going to help you make sense of your experience? And if it doesn't,

or if it's not really helpful, then how can we instead examine the behaviors that were hurtful rather than making it about a personality disorder?

you

Dr. Mazzella (04:03.308)
Yeah, that makes complete sense. And the fact that you use that they come to you after some kind of infidelity, in my mind already suggests that there is a possibility, maybe not NPD like formal diagnosis, but certainly narcissistic characteristics or traits, because to have an affair implies that it's hard to hold your significant other in mind and really hold them in high regard, if that makes sense. Yeah. And it is really interesting.

I'm assuming that when patients come to you, right? And maybe this is something we could talk about because I had an opportunity to look at your book. one of the things is, and this is what I wonder too, is what is their interest in staying in a relationship, right? Is that that's sort of the first thing that I want to assess. And then if they decide to stay in the relationship, and I'm not sure if I'm fitting this in exactly how it goes in your book, but you could help me out with this a little bit.

is I think then from there you want to go into sort of what keeps them safe. Is that right? Did I understand that correctly? Yeah, absolutely. So, you I am a couples therapist, but I also am a trauma informed therapist. And one thing I learned when it comes to trauma therapy is that safety is at the foundation of every relationship and at the foundation of health. Right. So if you don't have a relationship that feels safe, it's always going to struggle. It's always going to struggle to be healthy. And so, you know, when I

did my models, the strong model, and I wrote my book, I really talk about kind of the importance of safety as the first step in a relationship. I break safety down to the four S's. And the first one is that self-awareness, right? It's like, am I in this relationship because I really am invested in it and I want to be here? Or is it because I don't feel like I have a choice to leave the relationship? Or is it because I'm getting something out of this relationship that

is kind of in a transactional way good for me to stay. Yeah. Or, you know, maybe there's a sociocultural script that you have, you know, been raised with that tells you that you have to be in a relationship. there are a lot of people that are in those kinds of relationships where it's like, I didn't, I don't want to be single, you know, like I don't want to be that person that goes single to a bar. And it's like, well, you know, I mean, is not wanting to be single a good enough reason to be in a relationship.

Dr. Mazzella (06:38.36)
Yeah, that's curious. And then where does something like that typically go? the first step in safety is self-awareness, right? And that's recognizing, I guess, what are the motives? Like, what's keeping me invested in this relationship? If we could even use that word, because not having some place to go or not wanting to be single doesn't necessarily imply that they're so invested. But let's say they are, for whatever reason, maybe they decide to continue or to stay in a relationship.

Does self-awareness go any further than that or what happens next? guess that's what I was wondering. Yeah. So after that, the first step of self-awareness in a relationship is, I here because of function or am I here because of connection? Am I here because of what I can get in a transactional way out of this relationship or am I really invested, I love that word, in deepening a connection emotionally with this person?

And then the other piece of self-awareness, because I often hear, I ask people that and I hear them be like, no, of course I want connection, is being self-aware. Do I have the skills to have that kind of emotional connection that I say I want? that's because if you mentioned, just if I could jump, because now you got me thinking, if they say, it more functional? Like that's one way, I guess, that you begin to understand, I don't want to say operationalize, but to understand the relationship and a functional relationship.

could very well be like a reason, you know, a reason why somebody stays. But then just thinking about that concept in terms of psychodynamic theory, you know, if we can put a little psychoanalytic spin on this just for fun, right? Then it makes me wonder already in my mind, because the underlying question is, is my partner or do they have these narcissistic characteristics? So if I was checking boxes, the box, this one would be check for yes.

Because this is a common characteristic with people who suffer with NPD or have narcissistic traits is they're known to relate to other people as an object. In other words, it's not so much about the person per se, but what the person can do for them in particular in terms of supporting their self-esteem, their self-worth, feeling admired or always validated. So when you mentioned like is the relationship like is it a functional

Dr. Mazzella (09:02.88)
sort of relationship, that makes me already think, all right, so there may not be genuine intimacy in this relationship, which tells me already that this person has a hard time really connecting in a more genuine way to somebody. you know, this is also where sometimes where I see a lot of conflict happen is when there's a mixed agenda.

So let's say one person is a narcissist and they want to be, let's say, in the relationship because of the status. Like maybe my partner makes a lot of money or is super attractive and I like how they make me look. That's my investment for being in the relationship is like they're hot, they buy me things, that's why I'm here. But the other person in the relationship is looking for a connection.

So the other person is like, but I want to be loved for who I am and I want us to connect emotionally and I want them to care about my experience. And the partner with NPD is like, yeah, I don't want any of that. Right. And so that's often where you see that kind of conflict is where one person doesn't want the connection and the other person does. And it's kind of like trying to get blood from a stone. The person that wants connection is kind of slowly.

kind of dying inside a little bit, right? Because their need for connection is not being met, it's not being watered, they end up doing a lot of the work in the relationship to try to make themselves, you know, quote unquote, good enough to get the attention or the connection that they're looking for. wait, wait, wait, hold on a second, you see, because as I was listening, I was imagining, because I have couples like this too. But I was going to say they seemingly want a connection. Now, the manifest story is they want a connection.

But the truth is they are with somebody, they paired up with somebody who may have these characteristics of narcissism. you could be correct, right, Chris? Like absolutely correct that they really want this connection. But oftentimes what I see is they say they want it, but they really, you know, they're ambivalent. Let's say at the very, that's maybe the best way to say it. It's not that they do or they don't, but they have very mixed feelings about it. But I don't want to interrupt you. But then when you just said they'll do like their best or they'll

Dr. Mazzella (11:20.032)
sort of play a role, you know, in order to get a better connection. In my mind, what that said immediately was, they really don't want a connection, you see, because that's like a false connection then. You know, to borrow a con- again, I know I digress a little bit, to borrow a psychoanalytic concept, Winnicott called that the false self, right? I don't know if you heard of this sort of lingo before.

But if they're playing a role in any way, like to be the good girlfriend, the pretty girlfriend, or the attractive, or the fun one, or the cool one, or the laid back one, these are all things that I hear, by the way. Already that signals to me that they're very ambivalent. You know, they have mixed feelings about really being in a relationship in a genuine way. Yes. So that's the other piece of it, right? Is when somebody can acknowledge that they have no interest in a connection-based relationship,

they're actually often okay continuing to be in function-based relationships. And so that's kind of the other side of it is, yeah, if somebody really wants a deep connection-based relationship, why did you pick somebody who was so clearly not available? And so that's where that self-awareness piece of, are you repeating a pattern maybe from childhood? Maybe you had a narcissistic parent and so this is just a familiar pattern for you and you do want that deep connection, but again, maybe you've never experienced it, so you don't really know how to do it.

And so you do end up performing, you do end up playing a role. It's not that you don't want the deep connection, it's that you don't even know how to go about getting Exactly. So that's the other piece of the self-awareness of like, if I do want a connection-based relationship, do I have the skills, do I have the self-awareness of what I would actually need to do differently in order to be available for a connection-based relationship? And that might be leaving the unavailable partner.

And so that is the other piece of the self-awareness. It's like, yeah, lots of people say they want a connection-based relationship. And is it really that your partner is unavailable, or is it that you both maybe are just self-reflecting? don't have the skills to have a connection-based relationship. Yeah.

Dr. Mazzella (13:32.078)
And I would even say, I know you mentioned the word skills, but I think of it more in terms of like, do you have the courage? Because it takes a lot of courage. You have to muster up the courage to be in a relationship and be vulnerable, especially given the history. If you grew up with a parent or two who was preoccupied in any way and you never had that sort of genuine connection, that's really dangerous. It's really risky. And I guess that's why I like to call it skills.

Because I do want and maybe, and this is part of why I wrote my book and I do it, I have it as like a field guide. So the name of my book is Strong A Relationship Field Guide, right, for the modern man is because especially in my population and working with men, what I often heard was this kind of question of like, so vulnerability, that's it. Like you just be vulnerable and then you have connection. And maybe they've had experiences where like I was vulnerable and I didn't get connection.

Or I was. What does that look like? What are the details? Because when people sometimes say I am being vulnerable, it's like in my work, at least what I do is I slow that sort of stuff down and I go over the minute details of like, tell me what that looked like. What actually happened? Let's go over this again. Because often they think they're being vulnerable and it is probably for them, I should say. It is being vulnerable. But it's not I don't think in a way that maybe, you know, that I'm thinking about it at this moment.

Totally. Which is why I say it's a skill. It's a skill to be vulnerable in a way that invites connection. As opposed to what Brene Brown calls just dumping, emotional dumping, which is different than vulnerability. Yes. Like you said. so that's again why. Say that for the audience if you don't mind because that's a really important piece. What's the difference between what you called, what was it? dumping.

just, you know, emotional dumping, emotional dumping. Yeah. What's what is that? And how is that not vulnerability? So I talk about it in my book because I've heard this from clients where they're like, gosh, I'm an open book. Ask me anything. I'll tell you. And I'm like, yeah, you're an open book, but you're only open to one page. You see what you want other people to see. But like the depth of actual vulnerability, like oversharing is not vulnerability necessarily. Right. And so there are people that are like, I'm an open book. I'm an open book. And it's like.

Dr. Mazzella (15:49.056)
And so the example, I'm like, yeah, you're like an open book to a certain page, but all the other pages are welded shut. Like, you it's like one of those one of those display books, right? It's like, open book that you can look at. It's like, yeah, but you can't turn any of the other pages. Right. OK, so this is an example of and I appreciate this. is not vulnerability. Open book or dumping emotions does not want mean someone is trying to connect. Right. So let's flip it if we can. And I could start if you like. But if you have something at your fingertips.

What would be an example then of someone actually trying to connect and someone being more vulnerable? I guess a good example is, so it's a very simple exercise that I do with couples, right? It's like, feel about what and then following it up with I need. And the request is the vulnerable part. Often people have no problems or, know, maybe again, that's the first hump is like being able to identify what they feel, being able to identify why, right? The trigger. But

Sometimes people stop there, right? Where they're like, I'm so upset that you showed up late that made me feel unloved, that made me feel unvalued and made me feel that you don't care about me and that you're a jerk and blah, blah, blah, right? It's like, there, I dumped all my feelings. And it's like, but then what? What are you asking for? What's the need? I need to know that I'm important to you. I need to feel like I'm a priority. I need to feel that you care about me, right? Those are maybe the more vulnerable aspects rather than just telling you,

I feel this about this. There it is. Yes. I did the open book. OK, good. So when I asked you to kick it off with an example and I said I could do it. Yeah. My example was the same one. Just so you know, it was about expressing a need or giving an apology. All right. I mean, a genuine apology where you're trying to repair some damage. Right. Because again, the underlying question that's driving all this is, is my partner a narcissist? Right.

not, we don't mean diagnose, just characteristics. remember before I said I would check the box, right? With this whole thing with like, is it a functional relationship or I forgot the like an emotional or connection based? Yes, connection based. So here would be like, I would check the box, right? Because if you can't express a need, like ask for something, right? Or give a genuine apology, which means to admit that you were wrong, which

Dr. Mazzella (18:14.904)
people who struggle with narcissistic characteristics, both of these, almost impossible because to express a need suggests that you could give me something and enrich my life. But if you can enrich my life, that implies that I need enriching. And that doesn't make sense because the whole structure of the narcissist is the grandiose sense of self. In the grandiose sense of self, I possess everything that's good and wonderful and fantastic. So how could I ever admit to you

that you can enrich my life, because then again, it implies that I'm missing something and I'm not missing anything because I'm perfect when I'm in that state. And by the way, that oscillates, which I think we'll get into when we talk about another way of keeping safe. yeah, so now we have another check in the box of like, maybe there are some narcissistic characteristics here in this kind of relationship. Yeah. And that's, think, a really important distinction, right? The self-awareness of

Also, if you're in a relationship and your partner is constantly telling you, and again, this could be like also bordering on kind of an emotionally abusive relationship, because I've seen that a lot, right? Where somebody's like, I can't be a narcissist. Look how open I am about, you know, how much you've hurt me and how open I am about how I feel about how you and, you know, and so that kind of that distinction of like, yes, but do they ever admit that they've done something?

wrong or that they need something from you? Or is it just all this like emotional dumping and the open book and the, you know, I'm oversharing because that actually that's a very common like maybe bluff for somebody who is a narcissist is to kind of almost like cosplay the really highly emotionally open and sensitive person when actually underlying they're not really vulnerable in a way that invites connection.

Yeah, I mean, it's like without need and without flaws. So nothing is ever my responsibility. There's no need for me to apologize. You know, even and then sometimes even when they are sharing, like, let's say you're doing work with one of the participants in this, you know, in this couple, one of the partners you're doing work with who then is more open. And then the partner says, look, it's not up to me to manage your feelings. I don't know why you're always telling me how you feel. That's your responsibility.

Dr. Mazzella (20:27.426)
That's tough too, see, because now you get someone to the point where at least they could share a feeling, which could be just the beginning. Like it's not where you and I, it's not to the point where you and I are discussing right now, expressing a need or apologizing, but then that gets rejected as well. Listen, I know there's still so much more to say, but I want to push forward because that's just safety sort of skill number one. You have number two, is what? Stability? What's that number two? Yes, stability. You know, there's two ways that I talk about it.

One is basic life skills, right? And so that might not be something that is really relevant to whether somebody's a narcissist, maybe, in that maybe they expect to be catered to all the time. They don't contribute any stability into the relationship. All they bring is chaos, right? And so that's something to be aware of. If you tend to be the stable one in the relationship and your partner is only bringing instability or chaos because of their unaddressed mental health issues, because of their unaddressed or their lack of desire to contribute to the relationship because they have, you know,

NPD or they have a narcissistic grandiose mindset that like I'm the main character in this relationship, you cater to me. That might be also something to pay attention to that that's not a safe relationship because it will never have stability if only one person's holding everything up. Yes. So when you say you cater to me, what that just made me think of again, I'm just sort of translating this into like psychodynamic language, which is what we call self-ad differentiation. In other words,

There's when there's a lack of this separation between what belongs to me and what belongs to you. There's an expectation. Sometimes we can even call it like an entitlement that you are there for me. It's not like you can exist in your own right, you know, with your own mind. That would be completely objectionable to someone who does have these narcissistic traits. Totally. Yeah, I like to, I mean, you know, I sometimes like to use like the phrase from, you know, social media was like main character energy.

Right? Where somebody is always the main character in every story and they see their partner as like the sidekick, right? I am the sun, you are the moon, you orbit around me, I am the main character all the time. And so that's something to also be aware of. like, that's not a stable relationship because you're always getting pulled into their orbit because in their narrative, they are the main character of every story. Now your couple story revolves around them and their needs. Yeah. I guess it depends on

Dr. Mazzella (22:51.246)
who's the patient in each one of these situations, right? Because I'm imagining if I'm working with somebody who comes in, in this kind of relationship, complaining about like their significant other, always being the main character, as you just described. And I imagine you would do this as well. I'm getting the sense. But then the goal, I guess the treatment approach would be what? To help them begin to recognize why it's important to them, even though they claim again that this is not something that they want.

But somehow this meets a need of their own, right? Maybe there is some level of gratification that they get being connected to the main type of person, right? Because they can't do that themselves. But if there's that lack of self-adherent differentiation and they're connected with this other person, what's that old saying? A rising tide raises all buoys aside. I don't know. they can, their own self-esteem or self-worth can increase because they're so connected. It's an extension of them.

Yeah, and I also see a very common pattern that when people don't have, or maybe they were raised in a household where, you know, their self-worth was not cultivated, right? And they don't really know, like, why somebody would want to be in a relationship with them because, you know, they have low self-esteem, is they do look for relationships in which they are needed.

Right? And so they can prove their worth because, I'm the person that, I'm the only one with a car and I'm the one that they need and I'm the one that has to set the doctor's appointments and I'm the one that drives them around and I'm the one, you know, and so also that's some of the work. If I was working with that partner is, you know, what would it be like to be in a relationship in which you were also a main character or you were an equal character? Like, what would that mean of like, who are you and what?

Why would somebody want to date you rather than just... Yeah, that would raise, I would imagine, and this is where the serious work would begin because I can already imagine so many issues would come up around that because in part, if this was a role that they adopted in their own family, then to be expressing a need or to be that main person would imply some level of separation from their own family, their role in the family and separation from the family.

Dr. Mazzella (25:05.036)
which is a whole nother process now because we're talking about loss and mourning and giving something up, right? Doesn't mean that you need to cut off your family, but being a psychic, a psychologically or an emotionally independent person from your family is a whole nother thing then that we need to get into. But we can't do it today, Crystal, because we have to stop it. I want to continue though.

So we covered self-awareness. We're talking about things to keep oneself safe. I'm just sort of bringing it together a little bit for the listeners. And the undercurrent was, am I in a narcissistic relationship? And if so, even if somebody with like these characteristics, whether yes or no, the main objective, I guess, is to keep oneself safe. And two ways to do that from what we just spoke about is increasing self-awareness and having some stability.

And the more psychodynamic spin on it was more like self-aware, like the stability was about self, the differentiation in my mind. And the self-awareness has all to do with this sort of, we spoke about the functionality, like what kind of relationship are you in? And I brought in the true, you know, the true self versus the false self. But let's hold off there. And what I like to do is if you're open to it, let's continue the conversation and we'll try, well, we'll get as far as we can into

because there were two more, right? Skills about keeping oneself safe. Absolutely. And the last two are kind of in a shorthand way are the communication and conflict skills. Which is again, as my population is generally couples, people in relationships, these two things come up a lot, right? In presenting issues. By the way, Crystal, I'm going to put all your information in the show notes below. So if anybody's interested in learning more about Crystal and the work that she does,

or anything about her book and her model of treatment. All of that will be in the show notes below. And in the next episode, we're going to go into these other two skills, which Crystal just started to tell us about. We'll delve into that much further next time. Sounds good? Sounds great. All right. Thank you so much, Crystal. And until next time, I will see you then. Bye for now.

Dr. Mazzella (27:29.87)
disclaimer alert. The Narcissism Dakota podcast is provided for general information purposes only. The content presented in this podcast is not intended to diagnose, treat or cure any psychological condition related to narcissism. The content on this podcast should not be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. For specific advice pertaining to narcissism,

or any other psychological condition, you could reach me directly. I am an experienced mental health practitioner who is always taking on new patients. If you would just like a consultation, I can do that too.