Navigating Narcissistic Relationships: Why Self-Regulation is Essential-Recorded Interview - 2

In this episode of The Narcissism Decoder, I’m joined once again by therapist and author Kristal DeSantis, who returns to share another vital strategy for staying safe in relationships with narcissistic partners. This time, we focus on the importance of self-regulation and how it serves as a cornerstone for maintaining healthy relationships.

We explore the differences between healthy and unhealthy conflict, emphasizing the value of self-expression and accountability in navigating emotional dysregulation. Healthy conflict allows both partners to share their perspectives constructively, while unhealthy conflict often devolves into name-calling and emotional escalation. 

Our conversation also delves into how attachment styles shape the way people navigate relationships, the transformative potential of therapy for learning self-regulation, and the skills needed to express emotions effectively. 

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Transcript

Dr. Mazzella (00:25.614)
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Narcissism Decoder. I'm your host, Dr. Anthony Mazzella. I'm thrilled to have you join us for today's episode because we have an incredible guest. Again, Crystal DeSantis. Crystal is a licensed marriage and family therapist based in Austin, Texas with expertise in relationships and trauma. She's the creator of the Strong Model of Relational Therapy, a trauma-informed

Attachment Based Approach and the author of A Guide on Modern Relationships for Men. I'm very excited to hear from Crystal. So let's get right into it because Crystal and I started a discussion in the last episode. If you haven't had a chance to look at that, I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. we were reviewing and Crystal will jump in here. We were just reviewing some of the skills that are necessary to keep one safe.

in a relationship where they may or may not be with a narcissistic partner. And in that prior episode, that's something Crystal and I were sort of teasing apart. We were looking at it from her perspective and then putting a bit of a psychodynamic spin on it. And we left off with she went over two skills in that episode, and we were just about to broach the topic of self-regulation. But Crystal, please welcome back and thank you for being here with us again today.

What did I miss in the recap? And please jump in and then maybe we could go into self-regulation when you're ready. This is good. The recap was great. And yeah, these are the four, what I call four S's of safety as the foundational element of a strong relationship. So the S in strong stands for safety. It's kind of the first pillar of a healthy relationship. And these are the four elements of safety. So we're on to the last two, which is... Okay, great.

So self-regulation and self-expression, which in kind of shorthand are conflict and communication skills. And so as a couples therapist, these are kind of the main things that when people are seeking therapy, you know, when I asked like, what's bringing you in, often they start with, we're having conflict and communication issues. you know, we can't communicate well with each other or our conflict continues to kind of spiral or we keep fighting about the same stuff. Okay, that's good.

Dr. Mazzella (02:45.036)
We got it. So we have now a little different than the prior episode. have spiraling conflicts. Very exciting. OK, let's talk about that. And I think and again, you'll help me out here. That's what you mean by you're calling self-regulation, but spiraling conflicts implies they are in both of the partners are in a dysregulated state of mind. Is that right? Absolutely. Because again, you know, in any relationship, there is going to be conflict.

It's like, know, if you're going to spend 60 years with somebody, of course you're going to have disagreements. Of course you're going to have times where you're not having a great time with the other person. But there's a way to have healthy conflict and there's unhealthy conflict. Well, please, yes. Can you distinguish between the two before we get into self-regulation? I know I did this last time, but let's go over it. Like maybe an example of like what's a healthy conflict as compared to an unhealthy conflict?

Well, again, think that that's where self-regulation really comes into play is I talk about in my book and with couples about the window of tolerance. We all have a window of tolerance for when we can stay regulated. And staying regulated means that our prefrontal cortex is online. We are able to understand and listen to our partner. We are also able to hold space for their perspective as well as advocate for our own.

But you have to be regulated in order to do that. we get this right. Wait, wait, wait, on. So you have to hold space for their perspective and for your own. So that's part of sort of building blocks, right, of self-regulation. OK, so I just want to remind the listeners, the underlying question that Crystal and I have been following is, is this a narcissistic relationship or is my partner have these narcissistic characteristics? So here, Crystal, what you're referring to is what we call again in my field,

sort of this is like a developmental achievement. This is not easy what you're describing. Like you rallied it all. And I think you could probably appreciate it because I see already you're nodding. But to have space implies. And I went into this in the last episode, that self other differentiation, which means and here we could use a very specific example, which is I feel very strongly about something and my partner feels very strongly about the complete opposite thing. Right.

Dr. Mazzella (05:08.072)
And I've heard a lot of this because we just recently went through elections. a lot of this came up in the couples that I work with, you know, in terms of political affiliations. So it's like, how then do I make that space right, Crystal, that you were just describing for what? Like, what's the ideal? What do we want? Like both opinions or both perspectives to be able to coexist? Is that right? in a healthy relationship, right? And I guess, you know, politics aside, because that can be sometimes a really

hot button issue and sometimes people can't find a relationship that's big enough for both of those perspectives, right? Or all of the perspectives. But when it comes to just navigating differences in a couple, right? So I don't know, I've seen couples argue about like where the broom goes, you know, like does it belong in the laundry room? Does it belong in the kitchen? I've seen couples argue about like, does the dog stay asleep on the bed or does the dog sleep in the crate, right? And so some of these things, I've seen couples get...

into really unhealthy conflicts over some things that, again, if you had the self-regulation skills to be able to calm yourself down and remember that the goal is not defeating your partner. It's about being able to articulate your point, right? I don't think the dog should sleep on the bed because I have trouble sleeping as it is, I wake up constantly and hold space for their perspective. Like I understand that the dog does help you sleep better because you get to cuddle and it's nice and warm and you get a little cold at night. Okay, so now.

we can have a conflict that doesn't spiral into destruction of the relationship. Right? And so, but that takes self-regulation to be able to help. Because destruction can be something as simple as what? Name calling, like the conflict escalates and next thing you know, someone's calling somebody else a name. Right? Absolutely. Right. Or it becomes then the goal is to stop the argument. So I'm going to pull out the big guns. I'm going to

you know, name call, I'm going to shame, I'm going to, you know, fight dirty, I'm going to fight below the belt because I just want to win at this point, right? Which again, that's also something to, you know, pay attention to if in a relationship with somebody who has NPD, that's what they do all the time. Because they don't want like, your opinion, your perspective is not valid to them.

Dr. Mazzella (07:25.486)
you

Dr. Mazzella (07:30.828)
you know, if comes a threat again, I know I'm leaning on this one concept and I can bring in more. But because to accept somebody else's opinion means then that they're separate. And when they're separateness, there's loss. And that's something that's really hard for them to tolerate. I mean, that's the whole structure of the narcissist is the grandiose self-structure, which is in that structure, that grandiosity, that omnipotence. There is no loss. Like they have everything. They possess everything in the world, everything that's good and valuable.

So for someone to have a different opinion, something as simple as that implies a loss because now they're separate from you. You no longer own them or they're not like an extension of you at that moment. Yeah. And so that's something again of, you know, working through this with couples is first of all, can you regulate yourself without blaming your partner for your dysregulation? think that's one another big warning sign. Let's dig into that. Let's let's go into that because.

I'm imagining that my listeners or the listeners of this podcast may be saying, what does that actually look like? Like, how do you begin to regulate yourself? And I imagine you probably in the book have some skills or something that you teach for that. Is that right? Yes. Yes, I do. But what that looks like, and I think you talk about this like self other differentiation, right? And somebody's, again, going back to that premise of is my partner a narcissist is, you when it comes to conflict with a narcissist, often they blame their dysregulation on you.

Well, look what you made me do. You were the one that made me mad because you blank. And I can't see your perspective because you made me so mad that I blank. And so the self-regulation really goes back to the in a safe relationship, people can take accountability for their own triggered state. And they can name, like, I'm too upset to continue to have this conversation right now. I need to slow down. I need to catch my breath. I need to calm myself down.

because I'm too upset to continue this conversation because I can feel myself getting ugly and I don't want to go there because I love you. So I'm going to take myself into accountability and regulate myself. Wait, wait, wait. wait. Hold on, hold on. I appreciate this sort of us getting to really flush this out because I'm just making believe I'm like the patient now and in the mind of a patient at that moment you said I have to come down and have to keep in mind that I love you.

Dr. Mazzella (09:46.892)
But at that moment, okay, so here's another psychoanalytic concept, which is splitting. So when they get into a dysregulated state, and this is sort of the underlying thing of all personality disorders, is they're known to have a fragmented sense of self. So the fragmented self leads to splitting. And splitting is that all or nothing, either you're with me or you're against me. So in the moment right here, Crystal, that you're describing, they don't love their partner anymore in that moment.

And not only do they not love them in that moment, and this is the really sad part, but they never loved them because their partner always did this to them. You see, it gets really quite exaggerated. They don't make that link. The connection is completely absent at that moment. So then the question becomes, and we're just playing this out. So if they cannot remind themselves, I do love this person and I don't want to hurt somebody that I love because that gets lost.

I don't know if you ever encountered this or if you could speak to that a little bit in terms of what we might do in that case. Or we could think about it together if you like. Yeah. And I guess, know, again, this is why I like to talk about it as skills because self-regulation, again, for me coming from, you know, kind of the relational perspective is this starts in infancy, right? This starts with, you know, as an infant, you cannot self-regulate. This is why you rely on your mom's or your dad's

nervous system to regulate you, right? Babies cry, their parent comes and comforts them, right? But ultimately, right, when you become an adult, when you start developing, you learn to regulate yourself, right? You don't always have to reach for the other. And that becomes that healthy level of development, right? That you're no longer acting like an infant. You don't get to throw a tantrum every time you're having a bad day and take it out on your partner and expect them to comfort you, right? So that also is part of the skill building that unfortunately not all of us

had families that taught that, right? Instead, maybe you were either raised in a family where your parent did continue to come and soothe you and comfort you. whenever you had a tantrum or you had a bad day, they were overly involved and they would come and save you from your distress. So you never learned how to manage your own distressing emotions. And so instead, you're just bringing that into your relationship. You expect your partner to drop everything when you're upset and attend to your needs, because that's what your parents did, right?

Dr. Mazzella (12:02.76)
or you grew up in a different home where maybe after a certain age, your parents would simply punish you when you displayed any kind of distressing emotion. So rather than learning to self-regulate, you just learn to self-suppress. And so you just become this little ball of resentment and anger that why isn't my partner checking on me? Why don't they care? And it becomes a narrative of my partner doesn't care about me. Where maybe you're not actually displaying any openness for being cared for. Yep,

Dr. Mazzella (12:41.166)
And so, but that's also where a lot of that self-regulation, I know a lot of people, and I talk about it in my book of like, when you're outside of your window of tolerance, sometimes other people can tell, right? Because you're slamming doors and stomping your feet and, you know, your face is red and all of that, but not always, right? It's like sometimes it can be very internal, like your heart is racing, your stomach is clenched, you're gritting your teeth, but to an outsider, it might look like, you're having a very calm discussion. But inside, you're dysregulated.

Yeah, and I imagine you know about this because in the title, in the way I introduced you, there was something about attachment based, right? So, and this is the research on attached early child research on from attachment theories when that parent does leave the room and there's a separation and a loss. Some of those kids in the study, when the parent would come back in, right, would kind of be this like dismissive, withdrawn as if they didn't really

They didn't care that the parent left. But when they sort of hooked them up to sort of monitor their physiological response, I guess, very close to what you were just describing, their heart is racing, the sweat glands are open, you know, that they're in a state of panic. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's also the perspective that I like to bring to couples work as well. Right. Is that attachment and that I like to talk about it as it lays down like wiring for a default.

but it doesn't mean that's your destiny, right? And I think sometimes there's, know, in the same way that maybe the word narcissist gets thrown around, people tend to over identify with attachment styles, like, no, that's how you are. You are unavoidable or you are an anxious, right? As like a diagnostic label. And that's really not what it is, right? Is any relationship, and that's part of what I do with, you know, this attachment-based work, is any relationship can become a secure base and a securely attached relationship.

but it does start with these skills of safety and especially the self-regulation skill, right? It's like, can you articulate, right? You don't stonewall or give the cold shoulder or act out in like a tantrum way. Can you start to self-regulate so that you can actually then move to that next piece of self-expression of then what, right? Then what do you need? Then what can your partner provide? Then how can you work together? Then how can you have that emotional connection and that emotional conversation?

Dr. Mazzella (15:05.302)
You have me thinking again, like, I think this is in part where working with a good skill therapist comes in handy because in terms of technique, what we do with somebody, and again, I'm sure it's very similar with your work with these patients. This is from like the psychodynamic perspective is even though we have this at our fingertips, like these early attachment theories in mind, this is not what's going to be helpful when working with a patient. We're not reconstructing their past.

at least the way that I work with these patients, because you see this quite a bit online and in social media, it's like, know a lot about their history. So let's give them this information and explain to them why they're becoming dysregulated at this moment. But in my experience, that doesn't work, because when someone is in a dysregulated state of mind, making a link between the past and the present is impossible. So the goal then, again, I think we're probably saying something similar, but I'll just use a little different language.

in the treatment, part of what happens is an internalization of a certain method, which is the work that I do when patients become dysregulated. And it does happen in session because we go over the situation very closely, like I was describing in the prior episode is when I slow them down and I'm like, let's go over this word by word, right? And they start to become dysregulated. And then in the session, it's kind of like a modeling in a certain way.

But it's giving them that opportunity from what you were just describing to start labeling, know, and putting thoughts and feelings into words and using words to express something that's going on inside of them. And words already have symbolic meaning, which gives them a little space then from their emotional experience. And then slowly over time. And this doesn't happen in a couple of weeks, usually, because this is like we said, this could be deeply ingrained in their personality. It's a process of change.

But slowly over time, through the acquisition of language, right, labeling emotions, identifying them and internalizing a new way, you know, through the work that we do to slow down and really think about things, then they could start to become less dysregulated. I know that wasn't the best way to say it, but they become less dysregulated, less frequently. Well, anyway, you know, I think you know what I mean.

Dr. Mazzella (17:34.19)
really what self-regulation is, is about when you get dysregulated, often you're in kind fight or flight. so everything kind of speeds up. And so exactly like you said, part of the practice of self-regulation is recognizing when you need to take a break to slow yourself down because you're ramping up a little too quickly. And so that's again, that's that internal skill that if you're in a healthy relationship, you both work on.

in an unhealthy relationship or in a relationship that's really one-sided, one partner says, no, that's your job to do that for me. It's your job to start recognizing when I'm getting upset and then you make the modifications to be better. So I stopped getting upset. So that's again, just something to pay attention to of like, first of all, maybe you have your own self-regulation skills to work on, like, maybe start to recognize, okay,

Maybe my heart's beating a little quick or I'm starting to kind of dissociate a little bit or my head's getting really foggy. I'm getting a little tongue tied. Those are my physical cues that I'm getting dysregulated. I need to slow down, take a break, take a few deep breaths, walk around the block, remind myself, my body is dysregulated, but I'm safe, I'm okay. I'm just trying to get my point across. And maybe then it starts to kind of help you.

Once you get your body regulated, then your prefrontal cortex can come back online and you can be like, what is my point actually that I'm trying to get across? I know I'm upset and I'm trying to get a point across, but what is the point I'm trying to get across? When you can recognize that, okay, I have the skills to do that, I can recognize the name when I'm getting too upset and I've stopped seeing my partner as a collaborator and I've started seeing them as an enemy, I need to slow down and regulate. Crystal.

just to have a little bit of fun with this. And we don't have to go down this rabbit hole, but it brings up the whole question of then, and I have these patients by the way. And I think this is something that may again, separate out like more of the psychodynamic psychoanalytic approach is what happens when you slowly over time, you're teaching these skills and you're helping them become more regulated and then on internalizing this experience. And you just keep hearing the same story over and over and over again.

Dr. Mazzella (19:48.288)
and nothing seems to be changing. So from a more psychodynamic model, and this is later in the therapy, is what we then begin to wonder is, what's the motivation? Is there some unconscious motivation to keep this dysregulated state alive, right? And I thought about this only because you started mentioning like brain chemistry and what's going on in the brain. And I started to imagine as I was listening to you, that conflict

being in a dysregulated state and being in conflict with a loved one is really exciting. All right. And this gets this again, I'm not going to go all the way down that rabbit hole, but that excitement, I'm not saying it's pleasant. I'm not saying it's pleasurable. But if there is already a deficiency in dopamine in the brain and they need that dopamine hit, what better way to get it than a stimulating fight with a loved one?

You know, it's kind of like a drug, like alcohol or whatever, you know, whatever somebody may turn to to get that necessary experience of like an affectively live rush. And this could be the unconscious motivation that we have to then begin to explore. Yeah, I talk about it in my book and maybe a much I'm not a psychodynamic therapist. So maybe in just like a much more kind of straightforward way is like if we can't get the connection that we need in a healthy way, we will get it in an unhealthy way.

Right? It's kind of like any attention is good attention. If I can't get your attention by being open and vulnerable, I'm going to get it by throwing a tantrum. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's great. I have to do a deeper dive into the book. And again, I'm just sort of associating to your thoughts on this. It is unhealthy and it's maladaptive. There's no doubt. But in my work, when I'm doing this kind of work with the patients, I wouldn't consider it unhealthy. I would consider it necessary.

and I want to engage their curiosity. So rather than like unhealthy, I would say it's so necessary, but we just don't know why it's so necessary. And that's part of engaging their own curiosity in the process of trying then to understand that unconscious motivation that I mentioned a moment ago. right, listen, I'm going to give you the last word because we have to start wrapping it up. And I could sit here and talk to you about this all day. Just remind the listeners, if you don't mind.

Dr. Mazzella (22:07.116)
I'm going to put everything in the show notes, but the name of the book was or is Strong a relationship field guide for the modern man. Very nice. look, I want to extend a very big thank you. Before I do, let's just let's pull things together because in the first episode we went over a couple of the skills we went over to today we did the self regulation, right, which was the third skill. And as was anticipated, because I had a feeling self regulation is such a big

and such an important topic, we may not get to the fourth skill, but maybe without describing it, just tell the listeners what they're missing to give them some incentive to go out and take a look at your book. Well, so the last skill is really about putting all those things together so that you can connect, right? Because it's a skill of self-expression. So once you have self-awareness, you have the skills for stability, you have the skills for self-regulation, now what?

Right? Now is that next piece of how do I express myself to my partner in a way that invites collaboration. So I have some scripts in there. I have the emotion wheel in there in that chapter or that section. So yeah, you can find all that in the book of like, when I get through all of that, now what? Great. Well, thank you so much. And what a wonderful model that you've put together. I wanted to say congratulations to you. mean, to be able to create and then to write a book is...

No small achievement. So congratulations on that and on creating this model of keeping oneself safe in what may be, and we've checked a couple boxes, what we could say which seems to be perhaps a narcissistic relationship or in a relationship with somebody who has these narcissistic characteristics. All right, Crystal, until next time, right, which hopefully we could get you back on if there's anything else that we missed. You you and I could talk offline and see where perhaps we could go a little bit further.

So thank you again. Yeah, thank you. OK, everybody. Bye for now.

Dr. Mazzella (24:15.918)
disclaimer alert. The Narcissism Dakota podcast is provided for general information purposes only. The content presented in this podcast is not intended to diagnose, treat or cure any psychological condition related to narcissism. The content on this podcast should not be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment.

for specific advice pertaining to narcissism or any other psychological condition, you could reach me directly. I am an experienced mental health practitioner who is always taking on new patients. If you would just like a consultation, I can do that too.