78. "No Hope But Peace and Justice" - An Israeli and a Palestinian in Dialogue

"Many in society saw the news and understood there's no hope for peace. But I understood there's no hope but peace." — Yaniv Aknin

What does humanism actually ask of us when we confront the Israel-Palestine conflict? In this episode we preview a special Festival of Humanism session, exploring how secular, rational and compassionate values can cut through motivated reasoning and moral blind spots to rebuild shared ground between Palestinians and Israelis.

Our guests are Dr Jasr Kawkby, a British-Palestinian paediatrician raised in Gaza, and Yaniv Aknin, a British-Israeli software engineer and former soldier, who work together on peacebuilding, dialogue and nonviolent advocacy.

In this conversation we cover:

• Their personal journeys from a Gaza refugee camp and a secular Zionist household in Tel Aviv to a shared humanist platform
• How humanist values (curiosity, rationality, secularism and the dignity of every life) can reframe history, accountability and the path forward
• Why both believe nonviolence and sustained dialogue, not force, are the only routes to peace, justice and equality

Jasr and Yaniv host "No Hope But Peace: A Dialogue Between an Israeli and a Palestinian" at the Festival of Humanism in Bournemouth on 13–14 June.

Links:

• Festival of Humanism 2026: https://humanists.uk/events/festival2026/

Transcript

Welcome And Why Dialogue Matters

James Hogson 0:01

Welcome to Humanism Now, a podcast about secular ethics, curiosity, and compassion. I'm your host, James Hodgson. Today I'm delighted to welcome two friends and fellow members from the Central London Humanists. They're here to preview a special session that they will jointly be hosting at this year's Festival of Humanism in Bournemouth, UK, this June. Dr. Jasa Kirkby is a British Palestinian pediatrician based in London. Born and raised in a religious household in Palestine, he left 25 years ago to study and practice medicine. Yaniv Aknin is a British Israeli software engineer and school speaker with Humanist UK, also based in London. He was raised in a secular Jewish household in Israel and completed seven years of military service before leaving the country in 2013. Together, Yaniv and Jasa work with fellow Israelis, Palestinians, and other partners on peace building and humanitarian efforts, speaking and fundraising in workplaces, schools, places of worship, and public forums. They are united in their commitment to human rights, peace, and justice. And through open discussion groups and events like the one in June, they confront complex and challenging questions of reconciliation and accountability. Their session at the festival is called No Hope But Peace, a dialogue between an Israeli and a Palestinian. And I'm delighted to welcome Yaniv and Jasa to Humanism Now to preview that session. Yaniv Agnin, Jasa Kirkabi, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now. Thank you, James. Thank you very much. As

Yaniv’s Path From Army To Activism

James Hogson 1:32

mentioned, we've known each other for quite some time, but I think for our listeners, it'd be nice to hear perhaps your personal stories and journeys to this point, identifying and being part of the humanist groups, and what led you to join the dialogue. Yaniv, perhaps if I come to you first.

Yaniv Aknin 1:50

Thank you, James. Like you said, I was uh born and raised in Givatime. It's a city right next to Tel Aviv. Jewish secular household in my house. If I'd ask my mom or dad, are we Jewish? They would say absolutely yes. If I would ask, is there a God? They would say absolutely no. It was also a very Zionist household, meaning that we certainly saw ourselves as part of a people, the Jewish people, separate from the Jewish religion, and as being rooted and belonging to the land. Both the household and just my political opinions as I grew up were what I'd consider or what is called the Zionist left, the labor party, Israeli Labor Party, Israeli merits. We can ask ourselves how much is it left now that I've seen other labor parties in the world? But that's all I ever voted, it's all I ever thought. And also, when it was my time, like pretty much any other Jewish-Israeli teenager at the age of 18, 19, I joined the army being happy to do so and thinking that I'm uh defending my country, defending my fellow people, defending my values. I wasn't oblivious to the Palestinian narrative, the Palestinian story. I saw certainly some elements of truth in it. But um, I felt that the main hindrance for peace and justice on the land is a Palestinian refusal for having peace and justice on the land. And as a result, my rationale at the time was that we have to fight and we'll fight and fight until there'll be peace. And many events maybe will touch on them, maybe not, if convincing that's actually the wrong outlook. There's a lot more to the story than that. And I don't think it's a viable strategy to fight and fight until there will be peace. I don't think peace will ever happen that way. And that that changed my perspective. In time, I've decided that I don't think I can live in Israel more. I don't want to raise my children in Israel, and I've left and moved to the UK. I wish I could say I was some kind of exile dissident, a peace activist, or whatever. I was a peace pacifist mainly. But after October 7th, 23, I realized that I should do more. I think many in the Israeli society saw the news, the event, the massacres, the terror attack, and understood there's no hope for peace. But I understood there's no hope but peace. And I'd like to do more. I've decided I want to do more to make it happen.

James Hogson 4:00

Two and a half years later, here I am. Oh thank you very much. And Jasa, could you share your journey to this point, please?

Jasr's Story from Palestine and London

Jasr Kawkby 4:08

Thank you. The title of the podcast, So No Help But Peace. And I want to add to it and no peace without justice and equality. So I grew up in Gaza. I grew up in a Muslim family, Muslim society. And I think it was the age of 16, 15, 16, when I turned an atheist. The fact that I was the reasoning that I became an atheist also influences how I approach the Palestine-Israel discourse and conflict. The because I I thought to me that was being a Muslim is just an accident of birth. So if I hadn't, if I had been born a few streets down my house, I would have been born into a Christian family. If I had been born 30 kilometers off of Gaza, I would have been born into a Jewish family. I grew up in a refugee camp because my parents were expelled from their home when they were three years old. And their home was from a place called Kokaba in today's Israel, so pre-48 Palestine, today's Israel. Eventually I left Gaza to study in Europe. And actually, when I was in Europe, I tried to distance myself from the Palestine-Israel discourse because I didn't want to be pro-Palestinian out of ethnic allegiance. So I wanted really to have to take a more universalist approach to all human suffering. And that's why, as a student, I was actually more involved with fighting for the rights of the Kurds and the fights for the Tamils, so to causes where it was clear I didn't have ethnic allegiance. Of course, inevitably, I returned to the Palestine-Israel discourse. And this is really my purpose from through this podcast is to cast the humanist, universalist humanist lens onto it and to see how it evolved because we deviated from universalist humanist values and how we can really come back to a solution through adhering to these values.

James Hogson 6:31

Thank you, Jessa.

What Humanism Asks Of Us

James Hogson 6:32

You've mentioned there that you're going to be exploring these topics and issues in more detail at the convention, or the festival of humanism, as it's now called. Could you tell us more about some of the specific questions that you're going to be addressing during this dialogue?

Yaniv Aknin 6:50

I think one question that is relevant to both the topic of Israel-Palestine and to humanism is how does humanism relate to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? If you're a humanist, like it says certain things, I believe, about things that you believe in. Does it necessarily have to say something about what you think about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Being a humanist doesn't necessarily say something about your political opinion, which party you'll vote for, or I don't know, what profession you'll have, or these kind of things. What does being a humanist say about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I imagine we'll talk about history. It's so difficult to talk about the conflict without talking about the past. But also, I hope we'll spend more time talking about the future and about what do we want the future to look like on that land? And perhaps most importantly, perhaps all these things are just the backdrop to what should be done now. What do I expect of myself? What do I hope the Jasser will choose to do? And what do I expect of my people? And what do I hope that the Jasser's people will choose to do? What can we do to make things lead to the future that we hope for?

James Hogson 7:58

And Jasa, when approaching this, again, how do you think about the history? What is this conflict about and its origins in terms of how that should influence our thinking for the path forward?

Jasr Kawkby 8:13

What I'm hoping to achieve from so speaking of the Palestine Israel conflict on the humanist conviction convention is said to to shed this humanist light on the conflict. The way I see it, from the the discourse has been really riddled with cognitive fallacies, with motivated reasoning, with moral blunt spots. And this is what my hope is to tackle these motivated reasoning and the moral blunt spots, because only in doing so we can really re-establish a shared ground between the Jews and the Palestinians in which they can process the past and the present and look towards a future based on justice and equality. And then inevitably, so we will because now of course it's all abstract, then inevitably we would need to go into the concrete details of the history, how it developed, what were the forces behind it, what we can learn from it, and what also I want to talk about the responsibilities of humanists, human society towards the what's happening, and how what role can humanists play in supporting the justice and peace in this area?

James Hogson 9:50

You've both mentioned the importance of approaching this as humanists, and also the responsibility of humanists and perhaps humanist groups going forward. But perhaps to focus initially,

Turning Values Into Political Choices

James Hogson 10:00

what does it mean to you to approach such a complex issue like this as a humanist? What are the values that we really should be bringing to these discussions? Janiv, if I could come to you.

Yaniv Aknin 10:15

I think it's a great question. And in a sense, the conflict brought me to humanism rather than vice versa. I was sitting in my home in London and I was thinking, oh my gosh, I disagree with everything that's happening. Everything that's happening is mortifying me. What is a foundation? What are a set of values that I can connect to and will help me reason about this thing that is shaping my life, and I don't know how to think about it. And like from first principles, I thought, okay, these are my values. Are the people who share my values? And that's how I found humanists you can, or it's like, oh, actually, I was a humanist my entire life. Maybe I didn't always live by my values as I'd like to live them, or maybe I didn't always have the knowledge. And when I explain humanism, I don't know, to year three in a primary school, I say humanism is about asking questions. And to adults, I would say it's about rationale and secular governance. It's about being curious, it's about not keeping anything off limits that you cannot ask or you cannot try to understand. It's about being happy, I tell the children. And again, to adults, I would say it's the freedom, it's the right of every individual to be happy in their way. And what makes me happy may not be the same as what makes you or Jasser happy. And the duty, the responsibility to the freedom of others. To the kids, I say be kind. By the way, I stole all of this from Luke, our director of education. So curiosity or asking questions, being happy, and being kind. Now, these are all very big and vague lenses. How does that relate to settlements, to occupation, to Zionism, to terrorism, to self-defense, to genocide, to the concrete terms that we're talking about here? And I think it's important to recognize, I don't think if humanism gave us direct answers immediately to what do we do about the conflict, then I wouldn't say it's a universal set of values that, you know, it would be a political opinion. But we do need to ask ourselves: what do you do when these values are in conflict? I'm happy speaking Hebrew, I'm happy being a liberal, I'm happy being sovereign on my land. I recognize that my way isn't working. I recognize that there are non-liberal secular Hebrews, there are non-liberal non-secular Hebrews, there are also non-Hebrew people who disagree that it's my land and they want another sovereignty. And the price of all of my free happiness could be the subjugation and misery of others, or just the price that I have to pay doing the work of occupation. It's not pleasant. And then, okay, what will help me with this conflict between my freedom to be happy and the duty to the freedom and happiness of others? And I think here we need to lean on the rational and secular and curious mindset. I ask myself sometimes what is right. I try to ask myself a lot more what will work. I try to ask myself, why do I think the things that I think? When Jasser and I in our many conversations we talk about the past, I love it when he asks me, wait, why do you think that? Is that true? Or is that how you were uh brought to what you were raised to believe? And then I need to go and I need to read. There is a lot of content to read. What is the truth? I try not to get angry, I try to be curious. And I feel these are the approaches, or these are kind of like the outline of how to approach the conflict in a humanist way. And with these outlines, now, okay, so where should the border go? What two states or one state? Or how do we achieve peace, justice, and equality on our land? When we start talking about specifics, we can always look at the blueprint, look at the map, the humanist map, and say, is this in line with our values? If it isn't, why isn't it? Do we need additional information? Will additional information matter? If I told you what was actually the causes of this or that event in 1903, will that really change things? If it will, let's go and investigate history. If it won't, what should we do?

James Hogson 14:24

I think that's um really compelling way to approach any topic. And that reminds me, Jasser, of something which you mentioned as well, about the responsibility of humanists.

History, Moral Blind Spots, Power

James Hogson 14:34

And so I wonder, do you agree that there's a duty to us as humanists to be actively involved in peacebuilding?

Jasr Kawkby 14:42

Yes, definitely. And and you just also just to mention before I address this question, just to mention as well about the I need to talk about the roots of the conflict. And what I mean with this is the roots of the conflict is was it already a deviation from the humanist values in terms of the moral values as well as the cognitive and rational values or the rational approach. The way I see it, the very root of the problem was the religious hatred against the Jews in Europe. So it was it has and was justified with religious terms, being accused of killing Jesus or not, or rejecting the message of Jesus, etc. And it says and it evolved, but it has a clear religious root, which then of course had took its own dynamic, and then the Jews were persecuted in Europe, pogroms, culminating with the Holocaust, and then there was a drive to for the Jews to have a safe place where they can have their state. And then it was the Zionist project to turn to Palestine, and there were a few as well there was a deviation from the rationalist thinking because a leap was made. So the Holocaust is one of the greatest crimes against humanity, if not really the single greatest crime against humanity. But the the moral funder of this of this atrocity of this tragedy was used really then to stupefy moral reasoning and cognitive rational reasoning, because then they made the leap because of this suffering, the to justify the expulsion of the native population in Palestine. So that created a huge moral blind spot, and then was supported with claims like Jews had spiritual connection to the land. This is also to me anti-rationalist because spiritual connections never are very real. I fully acknowledge and respect the spiritual connection of Jews to Palestine, but that doesn't never translates into territorial claims. And so this is kind of what I feel we need to tackle it in in a rationalist, humanist way. And this is not to say I want to return the wheel of history, really many things what happened, but it's about really the understanding and reparations and also understanding the mechanisms, because a lot of these mechanisms are still at work. So when we talk about now with the settlers in the West Bank, they are committing the ethnic cleansing against the native Palestinians, and they go back, they support their claims with the religious terms. They say, Oh, we have the religious connections with the land, we have spiritual connections with the land. So that's these need to be examined through the humanist lens. But to go back to your question, James, yes, I feel when as humanists we need to lead by uh the although the kind of the focus of our work as a humanist is really the freedom of expression, spreading secular values, but they cannot be removed from lived reality. And when we see there's a cause where an entire population is affected, and when we see this the this conflict is really rooted in rationality, deviation from morality, deviation from all the human principles, then I think we we need to lead by examples and state our position with disregard.

Yaniv Aknin 18:45

Also refer to that. I think something that to my mind is very helpful is to ask Jasser and me what are the things that we disagree in. And Jasser said many things I agree with, and some things I disagree with. The reason I think it's helpful, it's I feel sadly that the situation in Israel-Palestine is more complicated than can't we just make peace and live together? And it's sometimes seen as a uh one incorrect way, to my mind, to label our stance, which is that of we just want the war to end. We just want people to be happy together. And I think that's simplistic and it's not what we're thinking. And also, I think it's also important to acknowledge that another incorrect framing is there are two people and there's a conflict between them, and they're fighting. Sometimes these are violent, sometimes these are violent. We're opposed to violence. And I think it doesn't have um intellectual rigor in talking about the difference in power between these two entities. Yes, perhaps there is a conflict, perhaps there are two people, and perhaps both of them are violent. One of them has, I don't know, a hundred times more power than the other, a thousand, ten times. I don't know. I'm not an expert in quantifying military might. And these are things that we need to grapple with and think about how do they shape what we think about the future and what we think about the present and how do we change things. I think the past gives us a certain backdrop. The past also is the thing that set us in motion and led our people into the conflict. And so we need to understand or we need to be curious about it. I don't want to be shackled by the past. I certainly don't want to be shackled by religious texts. I don't think my connection to the land, I think it is related to the Bible, but not because of what God said in the Bible. I don't believe in God. It's maybe related more to the fact that the Bible is written in my mother's tongue and the archaeological findings in my mother's tongue in that land. Just said that the Palestinians are indigenous to the land, I agree with that. Of course they are. But I also think that I'm indigenous to the land. My family's been on the land on one side for many years, but also on the other side of my family, right? My grandfather was born in Poland, but still I think he was indigenous to the land, right? I think a Palestinian child can be born in London or in New York and still be indigenous to the land. I think in my case it was more generations. Is that true? Is that right? We can talk about it. We could do sort of like a historical analysis here and so on. Does it really matter if we went and dug up the evidence and we did have the symposium and seven historians would come to agree? Does that mean we need to expel Jasser? Or does that mean we need to expel me? Does that mean we need to perish the thought, kill Jasser or kill me? And this is where the past is relevant. It provides a tapestry, it provides a backdrop. But humanist values and a humanist vision for the future should dictate our actions in the present.

James Hogson 21:38

So thank you both for unpacking that as well. And as you say, with such complexity, we're not going to uh be able to unpack everything, certainly not on this podcast, but of course, I know you'll be able to go in more detail into your views and to those disagreements during the session at the festival.

Future Visions For Land And Rights

James Hogson 21:55

But let's talk a little bit about the future. You've both mentioned that I think come back. These points of secularism, rationality, underpinning anything, understanding not just of each other, but of the complexity and of the history and of a willingness. Perhaps Jasa, maybe I come to you first. What is the future that you hope for?

Jasr Kawkby 22:17

What I hope for is uh clearly that people live in um Palestine-Israel, but they live in peace and equality, justice, dignity for all people, so that of course we talk specifically about Palestine-Israel. I want to see that Israelis live in peace and there's safety. And I want that Yaniv has family in Israel. I want his family to continue to live and friends to live in peace. And I want the Palestinians, the citizen of Israel, to live in equality, because at the moment they are treated as over 60 discriminatory laws against Palestinians, citizens of Israel. So I want to be treated as an equal citizen. I want Israel not to be exclusive for the Jews, but to be really to belong to the people who live on the land. So this is my rationalist approach. The land belongs to those who live on it, not to anyone in the world who has spiritual connections to it. And this is the and for those who live it to live in equality, and the Palestinians in the to have their right to have their state, to have to state in the West Bank, in Gaza, that Israel respects international laws, retreats to its uh borders, to pre-67 borders, dismantle the settlements, and that they live in peace and equality. And also I want to see accountability. We all know about the genocide that happened in Gaza. Even if people disagree about calling it genocide, but I think there's wide agreement, grave crimes against humanity and war crimes were committed. So I want to see also accountability against the members of the Israeli government to be held before the international law. And I want I must say also something about the Palestinians. I want really from my appeal to Palestinians to stop all kinds of armed resistance and to really pursue an unconditional and fully non-violent path of resistance because this is the only way that we really can stop this cycle of violence and for people to have to start founding the ground to live in peace in this land.

James Hogson 24:57

And um, Yanev, firstly, is there anything you would add or perhaps disagree with Dasser on the that outline? But also with our view to the future, a lot of the points which we've mentioned reason, compassion, secularism, accountability that we've returned to, all I'm sure fundamental to this view of the future. But these are traits and values that are going out of fashion around the world, and certainly in areas where we see very deep-rooted conflict. How do we encourage or begin to encourage those traits so that we can move towards a better future? Great question.

Yaniv Aknin 25:38

Let me start by by saying a few more words about my vision for the future. It's not dissimilar to Jasser's. A few, but a few things I would like to add. I think growing up, I mentioned that I for as long as I can remember myself, I was part of the Zionist left during the Oslo peace process. I was 13 when it began, I was 15 when Robin was assassinated. I was coming of age during the second intifada, the exploding buses, all these things. I always felt that Israel's border is the 67th border, meaning that the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, Golan is not ours and shouldn't be part of Israel. And that there will be a diplomatic agreement by which eventually the state of Palestine will be established and uh hopefully we'll live in peace alongside Israel. In a second, we can talk about a practical view of things. But through conversation with Palestinians, Jasser and many others, I didn't mention, I hardly spoke with Palestinians for the first 43 years of my life until two and a half years ago. It boggles my mind that I grew up so close to Jaffa, right? 50 minutes walk. I would go there to get bread or like after I've been on the beach. I barely spoke with Palestinians a meaningful conversation. But through these conversations, I've learned how many of them don't see things that way. The border of Israel doesn't end in 67. And Jaffa, of course, Jaffa is part of Palestine. Arus al-Bakr. Where would Jaffa be if not in Palestine? Hefa, Lead, where is Palestine? And my perspective on that has changed in the last two and a half years. But it didn't change in one direction. Of course, Israel. It was also in Betlechem, in Yerichho. I feel more connected to Yehudain Shomron, Judea, and Samaria. And then what is so what would be the solution? In terms of a vision, in terms of where I'd like us to be. I'd like every Palestinian or Hebrew man, woman, child, anything, to be able to live, to be able to work, to be able to love anywhere on our land. I chose to live off of it. I love this land so much. It's strange here in London and the skies are gray. I'm not used to it. Yes, of course, if we would like them to live everywhere and work and love everywhere, that would mean there would have to be equality, that would mean there would have to be justice. It would mean we may need to go through sort of like reconciliation, what we've done in the past, reparations, accountability. But I think that is like the vision we should aspire to. How to get there? Two states or one state? Where would the borders be? How much in reparations? Who will decide how much will be the reparations? Who should be held accountable and by whom? Which courts will try Israeli or Palestinian leaders for their crimes? These are important questions. Again, if you'd like, ask me anything, I'll answer it. But trying to keep the answer to a certain scope. I think we need to discuss all these questions. Through a framework of secular rationality, of recognizing the individual freedom to be happy and the duty to others. I don't think you can punish a peoplehood. You can punish a person or a hundred people, right? All of you had this role in the leadership, this role in the armed forces, with this role in the whatever. And as a result, I think you can decide that the country is part of an agreement, is paying reparations. But I think when you're thinking about punishing the Jews, punishing the Zionists, punishing the Hebrew, punishing the Palestinians, punishing the Gazans. No one is innocent in Gaza. That leads you away from your values and away from our path. No, I think every five-year-old in Gaza is innocent. And in Israel, probably also every 15-year-old. Probably many more people. So many innocent people on the land, even if I disagree with them. And that's something we need to remember. There was a second part to your question. You asked me to touch on encouraging those values. So important, so important, so important. I feel focusing on ourselves, first of all, on our side. I know Jasser can decide how good is my Arabic. It's certainly not fluent. It's okay, maybe. My Hebrew is is very fluent. Native, I would say. And I know my people well. And I should speak with them. And I should argue with them. And I should come from the question of uh not what is right, what will work. The violence in the West Bank is abhorrent because of what it's doing to Palestinian, of course. It's also abhorrent because it's the most anti-Zionist thing I can imagine. It's the most dangerous thing to Israelis, is the barbaric way in which we conduct ourselves. This will not stand. And how to make that change? First of all, amongst ourselves. And second, amongst the people that we we hope to share the land with. Yes, I think it is good for Israelis to study Arabic. I have no idea how I got to the age of 33, so close to Jaffa and didn't speak Arabic. What was that about? That was such a mistake. So first I want to speak with um approximately eight uh million Hebrew-speaking Israeli citizens, and then with another seven and a half, eight million Palestinians on the land, and then with another 15 million others in the diasporas, Jews and Palestinians. And then I probably run out of energy and time. I don't have that much motivation to speak with the others, others, right? People who are not related to conflict, but they live in New York and in London and in Amman or in Riyadh, and they have thoughts. I don't want to dismiss them, but just there's so many people that I need to speak with that are on the land that are directly affected. And I'm very interested in speaking with them. I also think that people from outside should be mindful and careful. I think throughout the conflict, not just in the last year or the last two years or the last five years, from the early on in Zionism, from even before that, there's been a lot of involvement from outside, and it's not just imperial support for Zionism. There's just been a lot of involvement from outside, and I don't know what's good. Uh not in light of humanist values and not helping either one of the sides. So, yeah, how to start? Mostly focus inwardly. Mostly I want to speak with other Israelis, I want to speak with Palestinians who want to speak with me.

James Hogson 32:11

That's my focus. Do you hold that hope that dialogue,

Hope, Dialogue, Nonviolence, Next Steps

James Hogson 32:15

conversation can be that powerful in changing hearts and minds?

Yaniv Aknin 32:20

Wonderful question. I'm not sure. I'm genuinely not sure. I had there was this uh memorable moment. I was uh speaking at a British school with another Palestinian partner of mine, his name is Abid, and they asked us, uh, what gives you hope? And Abid looks at me, and I look at him, and he's like, Do you have hope? Like, no. So I'm not sure. I'm positive that that violence is going to be less effective. The situation on the ground is horrid. The last two and a half years were I can't begin to describe. But I know that it could things could get a lot worse. Things can get a lot worse. If Israel doesn't understand the limits of power, and if Israel continues hiding behind the self-defense as uh as an excuse for barbaric offensive actions, it puts itself in greater danger. I don't presume to be a strategic advisor to Palestinians, but at least my perspective, maybe Jasa would like to talk about that. I don't think violence has been working well for them either. There's so few of us. We're such a small land and so few people. There's like uh more Iranians in Iran than there are like Jews and Palestinians all over the world combined. More Turks, more, I don't know, more Americans. We're so few. It's such a tiny land, it's so small.

James Hogson 33:40

Jacid, what gives you hope?

Jasr Kawkby 33:43

Right now, I really think it's hope is a very difficult word. I don't see much hope in the horizon. And that's why I'm trying not to look at the horizon. I'm just almost I'm looking between my feet or just looking for the next step. So I just identify what is the right next step and the next maybe the second step, and I focus on this. And the what I feel right is the I know of the values that I stand for, the values of peace, equality, and justice, and I want to pursue this when I look at people like Yanev, Yanib belongs to the to the state, the citizen of the state that is oppressing my people, the holding this uh military occupation, a state that conducted a genocide against my people. But he's one of those citizens who is standing against this military oppression, against the policy of his government. He's standing for equality and justice of Palestinians. So he is my ally and he's my friend, and I find it only right that I stay in dialogue with him and that we work together towards our shared purpose. Now, are we really going to to make a seismic exchange? Probably not, but that doesn't mean this is because what you are doing is wrong. It only means we need more of it. So we need to spread it, and I think to answer your question directly, James, yes, I believe in the power of dialogue. But it it needs to we need to allow it the time that it needs, the persistence and the continuation, and it will eventually lead to something bigger. And when we do this, and I must say it now, since we are humanists and we talk about the holy land, I want to say this is really we need also to address this, and I think Yanima and I are in agreement on this, that there's nothing holy about the land if we don't assert the holiness of people's life. So that really the only true holy thing in the in this holy land is not a temple, it's not a mosque, it's not any scripture, it is people's there. And this is where we we are in agreement that we assert the holiness of people's life, of the dignity of life, human dignity, and that to and for us to guide us. Now, whether we want to live in one state, I think that's what I uh if I understand Yanif correctly, possibly he he wants really to see one state in which all Israelis go to uh what he calls Yehudan Sim, uh Samarat, the West Park, Bethlehem, or Palestinians go to Tel Aviv, and I have no problems with this. Actually, I I think that's even more that would be closer to my vision. Someone, two states, but the the really the final political framework is maybe less important, and also I think it's also far ahead. I think we more important is that we agree on the values, which are the equality and justice, and to work together, to lay the foundation, and to step to take to step by step. And if I in my metaphor, I say there might be 100 steps to the final political constitution, and the decision whether to go to one state or two states or confederate, maybe will be decided at step 80. So it means we have 80 steps to go to walk together, and we should proceed with this. And precisely because what I mentioned that about people like Yanim are my friends and allies, this also links directly to my call for nonviolent resistance, because the with nonviolent with from the Palestinian perspective, nonviolent resistance strengthens the voices like Yanev's, it strengthens the voices of who are really standing for the Palestinian voices, Palestinian rights, and while our resistance only strengthens the far right and the forces within Israel that are against the Palestinian rights and Palestinian safety and Palestinian lives. And so this is also my way of strengthening the dialogue and the joint effort. So, in summary, only through joint Palestinian, Israeli-Jewish efforts we can make a progress.

Yaniv Aknin 39:06

Yes, I I very much agree with several things that Jasa said here, both looking at my feet and trying to think what is the next step I should take, and the fact that we may not know exactly what is the right construct for us, certainly not in step 50 or step 80. It used to be clear to me. It used to be clear to me that the solution is a two-state solution, and it is no longer clear to me, but it is also not clear to me that the solution is a one-state solution, and I can enumerate, maybe not now, many reasons why I don't think it will work. So, uh, what should we do? I've described my vision of all these people being able to live, love, and work everywhere in the land. And I can describe a step one. For sure, the barbarism in the West Bank is not moving us in the right direction. For sure, we should let infinite aid into Gaza. I just don't understand this back and forth negotiation about 600 trucks and 500 trucks and 700 trucks. Why not 50,000 trucks? When did it become a weapon uh starvation? I know when and we can talk about that, but I strongly disagree with it. Can we tomorrow abolish the 65 laws in Israel that the organization Adala tracks as the 65 discriminatory laws against Palestinians? I hope so. But if we can't, can we abolish five? Can we abolish uh 15? These are all good first steps. And we don't need to move a single tank, we don't need to give up, I don't know, any ounce of security. How is it helping Israeli security? The regular pogroms in the West Bank abated by the IDF. That's I think we have to put an end to this. And when I say we here, Israelis, Jews who feel the connection to Israel, we have to put an end to this. It's not even about Palestinians.

James Hogson 40:55

Thank you very much. Is there anything you'd like to share with our audience or potential attendees

Festival Details And Listener Links

James Hogson 41:01

ahead of the event in June? Or anyone who may want to get involved perhaps in other events or discussion groups that you have.

Jasr Kawkby 41:09

I'm really looking forward to our session in uh in June. And I I hope sorry, and I'm finding this podcast really useful in kind of exploring these ideas, and I hope through the preparation and the talk itself that um Yani and I will be able to work out a solid humanist, rationalist framework that could lay the ground for the future. And uh I'm sure there will be many other questions, but I think we touched on the basic important points.

James Hogson 41:50

Well, Jasa and Yani, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. Very much looking forward to exploring these topics and your views in more detail. As mentioned, the event is called No Hope But Peace, a dialogue between an Israeli and a Palestinian, and this will be held as part of the Festival of Humanism on the 13th and 14th of June in Bournemouth, UK. If anybody would like to get in touch with Jasa or Yanev or both of them, we will leave a link in the show notes to submit any questions or contact requests. Yanev, Jasa, thank you so much for joining us on Humanism Now. Thank you. Thank you, James. Bye for you.

Humanise Live 42:30

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