Kate Mullins, The story of a singer who lost her voice...

In this week's episode we hear from award-winning Jazz singer Kate Mullins; Solo recording artist, Vocal Coach and perhaps best known as one of the 1940's-inspired vocal trio, The Puppini Sisters (signed by Universal Records in 2004).

Kate has undergone immense personal and professional transformation over the course of her, as yet young, lifetime.  From the early discovery of her voice to navigating fame, experiences of addiction and eventually, a dawning sense of dis-ease with the life she found herself living.

A major vocal rupture in 2020 changed everything - leading her down the painstaking path of physical healing and beyond that, into deep, foundational change.  Now singing again, married, with a young child and new country life, we hear her unique story: what happens when a world-class vocalist loses her voice; a life without crutches; the raw power of one's emotions; and how to rebuild when everything you think you are is stripped away.

If you'd like to find out more about Kate's solo work, vocal coaching or upcoming performances with the Puppini Sisters, please use the following links:

https://www.superprof.co.uk/internationally-acclaimed-vocalist-kate-mullins-offering-online-singing-and-voice-lessons-jazz-pop-vocal-technique-and-style.html

https://thepuppinisisters.com/on-tour

E: katemullins733@gmail.com

Solo Album with Pianist Will Bartlett, Between Us:  https://open.spotify.com/album/6Mg7NlBd5g0UEkVWGi9Llb 

And as ever dear listeners, for more information on the Finding Your Way Home Podcast, upcoming speakers and events, and 1:1 Embodiment Coaching, visit: 

www.ab-embodimentcoaching.org 

I'd love to hear from you, whatever the reason. 

Transcript

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Anthea 0:14

Welcome to Finding Your Way Home, the secrets to true alignment. I'm your host, Anthea Bell, movement teacher, mind body coach, and lifelong spiritual seeker. This is a podcast about the depth, weight, and profound healing power of connection between mind and body, spirit and soul, and from one human to another. Together with an incredible range of inspiring guests, we'll explore just what connection and alignment mean. How to get there in a world full of the temptation to conform, and how great challenge ultimately can lead to life changing transformation. Get ready for groundbreaking personal stories, conversational deep dives, and a toolkit of strategies to build not just your inner knowing, but your outer world. Let's dive in.

1:09

We have such a treat today. We're sitting down with a woman who I have been deeply inspired by. particularly in the ability to find and express my voice. Kate Mullins is not just a world class singer and internationally known for her touring and her performances. She's also a singing coach. And she's generally an incredible human. welcome. Gorgeous person. It's so wonderful to have you. Oh, thank you, my dear, dear friend. And Right back at ya. So love, I'm going to start us off by, diving a little bit into your experience of the body and how that evolved over time. I know that it's been quite a journey for you through, uh, not just your profession, but also through active movement work that we've done together through exploration of yoga and most recently through becoming a mum, which is gargantuan. Mm hmm. And wonderful. And so just tell us a little bit about, how you relate to your physicality. It's funny that you should linger on that and then becoming a mum because, you know, your body is evolved so much. You're not only like growing the baby, but supporting the baby. You just realize it's just all physical. Of course it's emotional, but there's just so much to do with your body. So yeah, that's very true. I think my relationship with my body and body work has changed immeasurably. I mean, I'm fairly sure most people start off, you know, as teenagers, wild child teenagers, go into their twenties using sort of bodies as virtual video arcades, you know, kind of out clubbing and, you know, and your body is something that gets you somewhere. And, you know, you, you're, you're almost a sort of performer. You use your body as a kind of, Hey guys, Hey world, this is me. And you're not necessarily thinking, how's my body going to feel in 20 years time, 30 years time, 40 years time. And I certainly hit. Things quite hard in my 20s. I was a professional musician. I got signed to Universal at the age of 20. It was a whirlwind kind of beautiful start to a professional career. Um, and I just enjoyed every second of it. But I'd never really thought, you know, much beyond that. And I, I smoked and, when you take up those sorts of habits, I suppose, you're never thinking about yourself as 40, 50, 60, 70. You're thinking. What am I doing directly now? So life has changed immeasurably for me in that I actually had a sort of crisis of voice. I had to have quite a serious voice operation, um, only about five years ago now. And as it transpired, I think I had a voice problem for probably about twenty years. So when I was studying at music college, it was starting to get a little bit more unpredictable. Um, and I just got misdiagnosed for twenty years as being something very innocuous, like acid reflux, and it actually turned out to be hemorrhaging and it would only take somebody extremely, expert in that area to go, Ah, this is why we can see redness. It's not because you had acid reflux. And acid reflux comes up through the vocal tracts and it essentially can burn your vocal folds and they become inflamed. So if you're looking down a nasal scope to the vocal folds, redness can incline. acid reflux, but actually it was a series of hemorrhaging and scarring and my body was my instrument, is my instrument. And it's, as a singer, I think it's even deeper than that. It's my identity, you know, so I felt my voice getting smaller and I felt myself becoming more frustrated with my body over those 20 years. And that had a big knock on effect on how I used my body because I've, I think deep down, I must've felt like it was failing me at some level and it crept into my sort of fears. Fears was like worthlessness and if you can't. rely on your voice, what can you rely on? You know, like self flagellating. So having the voicer was a mega mega kind of, it was a relief that there was something I could do. But I couldn't talk for six months and I had to relearn how to talk, let alone how to sing. And that's where I had the time to sort of stop, stop the touring, stop the teaching, because I couldn't use my instrument. And that's when I came to you in terms of that movement, you know, Pilates, got into yoga. And I had a, the first six months I suppose I felt a little bit like, hmm, not sure I quite get this because me and my body haven't got a great sort of relationship really of, and that's partly down to myself, you know, putting barriers in the way, but something just clicked and in that time that I had with it and spent with you and I'd say my relationship with my body has changed. Immeasurably. Like, I no longer drink. I go to bed early. I do all those things. I am that stereotype. We've moved to the countryside. I've got married to a wonderfully supportive, nurturing, challenging, in that nurturing sense of the word, partner. And we've had a baby together, and crikey, couldn't have imagined that sort of six, seven years ago. When did we meet? Maybe eleven years ago? We met, we met seven years ago and I was just reflecting on where we met. I mean, we met in East London. We used to go for coffees or drinks in that area. And, you know, we were talking about Tinder and, and Hinge and all of these, these things that existed before. And You know, those of you that haven't had the pleasure of, meeting Kate or, or singing with her, the first thing that I should say is that you are the most fantastic champion of other people. I it's just really extraordinary. I made Kate a little bit uncomfortable because I sent her an email ahead of this recording, And I paused for the first time in our seven or eight year. history together and just explain some of the ways in which Kate had been a meaningful presence in my life, And Kate admitted to me just before we came on air, that actually that was quite disconcerting as an experience to hear herself so roundly praised in that way by someone that knows her quite well. And if I take us back to what it was like when I first knew you, you know, you are the most. incredible, natural performer, not just when you're on stage. I've had the, the opportunity to see you a few times right in your element covered in sparkle and doing the hell of a lot of spotlights while actually, the most recent time, eight months pregnant. And Still tottering in six inch heels, my goodness. She did well with the tiny ukulele. It was a very different Kate. and there's something almost slightly pirate esque about you that's so gorgeous to be around, which is combined with this deep, deep care for humanity. And when you're talking about the operation, you know, it really strikes me the level of humility that you would have to have both to consciously decide. To have surgery on something that you could probably have continued to push through even though it was painful. That's what they said. They said you could just accept that this is your tool and this is your instrument. But you know, Anthony, like going back to your initial point about relationship with your body and your mind and your soul. I just kind of found myself thinking I don't want to take the blame for this anymore. Like I want to stop blaming myself and my voice team and let's just be clear that it's not just the surgery. It's the post vocal care, like I was under some incredible people in the team around me. Um, and I worked bloody hard. Like they've used me as a medical, they'd never seen something quite as bad as what I had. And they have subsequently used my story as, um, as an example, because I worked very hard to get over it. Um, and I, you know, most singers probably would, but I'm a very determined lady. But, um, but yeah, I think I, the voice team basically turned around to me in our first post op session and went, this isn't your fault. And I was like, okay. Wow, because I've been telling myself that you did this to yourself, you've made your life a misery, all this symptomatic, you know, drinking through it and feeling insecure and it's just a symptom, isn't it, of something really deep and profound? I mean, it's, it's enormous and as you say, it's not an isolated belief system that that I am to blame. I was, uh, I spent a lot of my time one to one with clients talking about, um, self forgiveness and permission. That you do have permission to restyle your life relative to the individual that you now find yourself to be. and that fundamentally, although we like to think that we're in control of a huge amount of our own behavioral traits or our leanings or whatever it might be, you know, you and I have both had profound experiences of humility and surrender. And. It sort of comes back to that, that phrase that's as old as time, you know, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And in, in choosing to have surgery, you are choosing to take agency with support, with a plan, but, but you're choosing that for yourself. And it strikes me that when you're talking about this, country lifestyle with your husband, who, uh, again, for the benefit of the listeners, I think, makes very finely, tailored charcuterie and sausages in their garden shed. It's really an idyll that you're creating in this, this vision of your current life, which probably would have been anathema to the Kate that I knew eight years ago, um, who, question mark, was following more of a drive to find something, be something. Tell us a little bit about that, I think I felt like I didn't know why I wanted to not be myself, and by being myself I mean drinking., being an exaggerated form of myself. I believe that people wanted me to be that version of me. I, often it's remarked when I'm on stage that people think I'm a, you know, it feels like they're watching me. They know me. They know that that is kind of how I am. I use a self deprecating humour to paper over a lot of cracks. Um, and that's become my thing because I was always very I always suffered from stage fright and I think it's because I, from, from the age of 18 to 19 felt I couldn't really rely on this, my instrument. Um, it would cut out or it wouldn't do what I wanted it to do. It was temperamental enough to pull the rug out from under me on enough occasions that I thought, Oh, if I have a glass of wine, I want a couple of glasses of wine, maybe this is going to go a little bit better. And that just seeped into everyday life because Those of you who understand that kind of level of addiction or any ism, whether it's, isms exist in all sorts of areas, whether it's overeating or drinking or drugs or whatever, um, that compulsion to change the way that you feel somehow, you know. And I kind of always thought that that was the problem was, but I now realize that it was the symptom of the voice problem. Um, but it was just, you know, when faced with the medical opinion that there was nothing really that wrong with me. Of course you go inwards, don't you? And you go, well, if it's not my voice then there's got to be something deeper. And I think I was just trying to explore through my my music writing and my relationships with people. You know me. I used to like to drink to get deep with people and like, have those deep chats and that's something I fell in love with you about because we didn't really need to do that. Like, we just went deep and I had Such a lot of massive respect for you as a human in your own journey. When you came into my, into my, you know, music studio as a, as a student with me, I just thought, who is this exceptional ray of light? And God, she's got a lot to give. The world, you know, and we never needed to do that particularly. We went deep anyway and I like, I've always liked that kind of intensity. I'm feeling comfortable enough to do it and that's where the artificial, I think the drinking came in for me, like, let's force this connection. You know, you can't do that for very long, it's not sustainable. it's that let's force it and also it's um, let me create a context in which this is societally accepted. you know, I, I echo everything you're saying and I sort of got to the stage where this just is me. It just, it just is because the effort of being anything other than who I am it's not even now that it's just tiring. It's, it's also now that it feels quite deeply disrespectful to myself at this stage. And again, maybe it comes back to that idea that I'm both too much and also not quite enough. And as young people, we're constantly batting back and forth between those two beliefs. And if we go back to that control idea, you know, we're also constantly thinking that we should do something about such a beautiful thing to, to share this idea that, you know, we're just picking up on these things, behaviors, whatever they might be, ways of being with other people, because they give us an opportunity to just feel a little bit fucking better. And who doesn't want that, you know? Yes, And we all get our dopamine hits differently. I get mine from people. And like you said, it's very lovely to hear you encapsulate. Um, how I support people. I had never really thought about it in the way that you've so flatteringly described. But I, I do, I, I, people are relative, people are subjective. Like, as a teacher of voice and a coach and of music and whatever, I just feel like I don't mind what your start point is. As long as we progress. Like, I teach professionals, I teach semi professionals, I just teach people who want to Sing Disney songs better to their children, you know, and for me their progress is relative and It's my job to figure out what makes that person tick, what will get the best out of them. And I'm sure, I think you work like that, and that's why I love working on the bodywork with you in that way. Because you're, you, you drop in enough personal, like, even in a group class, it's phenomenal. I don't quite know how you do it, there's enough that you're like, God, how does she do that even in a group? Like, how does she make me feel seen? You know, and. That's quite, that's quite a skill. Well, that's sort of an amazing, gateway. Thank you. I'm going to pretend that you haven't complimented me, but, um, but that does, that does bring me to a question that I, that I had for you because obviously you're a, you're a voice teacher. And you are a vocal practitioner. And as you say, you've made your career from this incredible tool that you were gifted and that you've worked damn hard to cultivate. And I'm curious as to why you feel the voice is so important for people. What, what, in a sense, why does it matter for people to be able to express? What's your take on that? I think your voice is your story. Your talking voice reflects where you've come from, unless you've changed it, but even that reflects a part of your story. If you've gone for elocution lessons because you believed that you spoke in an accent you didn't want to, or, you know, that's just one example, but that's part of your story, isn't it? I came from here. I didn't want to be from here. So I, so, but, but really it contains the nuances of your upbringing. The inflections, the So, speaking wise, even speaking wise, it tells your story, it is the window to your narrative. And, yeah, without getting too kind of wanky about it, singing feels as close to the divine as I can possibly imagine, particularly singing with other people, and that's, that's something I've built a career on, is harmony singing. And I love this idea that three very, very, very different voices, because I sing in a vocal harmony trio, but I've also done choral work and whatever, but that the combination of voices is heavenly. Like, when you, as in, for the user and for the listener. Like, it's celestial, almost. they believe that singing evolved before talking and language in terms of us as a human species. So that's where we learned to communicate was singing. So when I get people coming into my practice room saying, I was told I had a shit voice and I should stand at the back of the choir and sing Rebub Rebub, that breaks my heart because I'm like, who the fuck thinks they have the right to tell anyone that? Because the damage that does. to that person's story, that their legitimacy, their sense of identity is unmeasurable. Immeasurable. Like, it's just a crime. So I feel like I'm here to kind of give people back their, that superpower. Or at least help them to unlock it a little bit more. You're such a people's person. I'm curious as to whether you felt that you had permission to be a singer. It's not necessarily the career path that every parent recommends. I've never asked you that before. Was that something you just determinedly with your sass and your pizzazz charged forwards into? Was it very obvious from an early stage? It's double pronged. I come from a family of very Extraordinary people, I think. they're very smart and not in the kind of, well, yeah, academically, but also In terms of how they recognize their own talents and use them. Um, and I felt like if I was gonna be a musician, I'd have to be a bloody good one. But it was that impetuousness, that the right word of youth, like, there was no doubt in my mind, Anthea, that I was gonna become a signed recording artist. Like, from, there was a point in my schooling career, maybe 15 or 16, where I was either gonna do law or I was gonna go and study music. And I was really into heavy metal, like, as a teenager, I was a goth. And that, I think, is where I blew my voice. You know, my dad remembers picking me up from gigs where there was no monitoring, microphones were rubbish, and he's like, you couldn't talk. When they were going through this, Um, you know, reflections on why, why I got into a vocal problem, you know, retrospectively of the operation. I think we can probably say that that's where it came from. So I was in this kind of heavy metal zone, um, and yeah, my voice became unreliable. it's not really a surprise given how much I used it to shout. But in that respect, it wasn't my fault because I didn't know any better. I was just using my tool. retrospectively you can think a lot of things. Um, so I found myself saying, okay, I'm going to be a really good singer, but maybe classical's not quite for me, because I couldn't really do it anymore. Whereas I've been doing solos in, in the school choir and beyond in vocal competitions, I've been doing four A's rec, the solos and And Handel's Messiah, like, I sang at my music teacher's funeral, the solo part. It's like it wasn't a problem when I was a younger teenager. But they said, like, I couldn't really do that anymore. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be a really good singer, but maybe jazz is for me. And then I can still, you know, have the old fag and whatever. And I've actually, jazz ticked a lot of boxes for me because it was academic. Like, the theory behind jazz is staggering. It's infinite. Like, you need to know a lot. And I didn't just want to be one of those singers that didn't understand the theory behind it. So I auditioned for music colleges and, and I got in and, for a girl, because most of us were singers, um, I was top of the class, like, in terms of the theory. And I found that really, like, You know, liberating, because I'd actually gone into the auditioning process going, Was I a big fish in a small pond? Was this ever going to work? But that impetuousness of youth was just like, just do it. Because if you're going to do this, you've got to be the best. Because look at everyone else in your family, they're all doing their own thing to the best. So if I knew I was going to be the black sheep, I had to be a really good. Black sheep. And the rest is kind of from there. Well, so I'm curious on that basis as to whether that impetuousness has followed you through your life. I mean, has that allowed you to make the pivot, shall we say, that you have made to find a fantastically interesting and yet also responsible chap and have a baby and, you know, are you still able to, to summon up that? Extraordinary courage, because arguably that's one of the things that we lack a little bit. It's just the willingness to have the balls to run into the sea with no clothes on, you know? I mean, I do that regularly, but Yeah, what a damn right question, yes. I think in answer to your question, it's not the same. It's not impetuousness. It's now just dogged determination. Because where you've, where you can't necessarily make it, you fake it. So I think sometimes I am, and my husband said to me before this, he was like, Maybe. You just give everything 150000%. Like that's not a number. I know that. But you know, and I, and so I guess, whereas before I was like, that's just gonna happen. It's just gonna happen. Almost like a fortune teller had told me, you're gonna do this. You know, plants that seed. That's the impetuousness of youth. Whereas I think now I think about things, I just still things. I have a great sounding board in my husband and my friends and family as well. But once I've decided I'm going to do something, I bloody well do it. To the best of my ability. And it takes a lot for me to back down. I can't really think of an occasion where I have. I've just kept pushing. I mean, I'm very, I'm curvaceous, I have boobs, I have hips. I'm not a natural runner. I run three times a week. Like, you know, and I must be quite a sight. Because there's curves all over the place. But, you know, do you know what I mean? Like, so I think it's changed. The same impulse has become something that perhaps I consider more. It's less kind of impulsive. And I miss that part of myself. I do miss the like, balls out. Let's just, you know, it's now thought about. But once I've decided I'm doing it, there's no turning back. Do you find it easy to know what you want? Does that instinct come up quite quickly? Yeah, I do find it very difficult to know what I want, yeah. I have to have counsel. I can't Well, I have to have counsel and then I have to go away and distill it. I'll go for a run or I'll do Pilates or yoga or something. You know sometimes when you've got something on your mind and then you do a session, an exercise or something that involves your body. where your mind can just percolate rather than be on. And then by the end of that session, you're like, I know what I'm gonna do. So I think I'd take, I have an idea, I take counsel, percolate it, and then I make a decision. So it's not, it's considered these days rather than, boom, come on, let's just go and do that. they talk about flow states in artists and they compare flow state to meditation or to any other kind of mindfulness practice and this sort of teaching that I do a lot of is very mindfulness based. what I feel as though I observe in the people that I'm close with, who are creators and artists, is that the ability to use that time where your frontal lobe shuts off, let's say, also as a space of processing where things become clear when they emerge after two, three days. And I'm curious as to whether that happens with singing, perhaps not because you're so in the limelight. I mean, your, your stage shows. are big, you know, they're a big experience. I can only imagine the adrenaline that you must feel when you're doing them, when you come off stage. Maybe it's a different thing, but I'm curious. No, I think, I think you're right. I think he's, he probably is. exactly the same thing. But what I would say is that my voice problem has interrupted that flow state in a way which is really hard to describe. Because I'm constantly worried about the tool I can't really kick back and relax. But as a result, something really interesting I think has happened to my voice. And I think this is something that people pick up on when they hear me. I'm a very emotional singer. And I think it's because I push my voice to a limit because I have to in order to make a sound happen. And I use the word push reluctantly because as a teacher you shouldn't be saying push. Because of the limitations of my voice which are now kind of, my voice has changed after my voice off, I'm still trying to get used to it. It's like being in a car on the wrong side of the road, wrong left hand drive. You know, it feels kind of similar, but it's not, I can't operate it in quite the same way. And now I have less time, I'm gigging less, I'm performing less, and therefore my voice possibly isn't in that easy state. where you get to your flow state. So I would say it's a, I'd say you are right, but in my case something's interrupted that flow state and I miss it. And, and the fact that I've missed that zen like state for so long has kept me pushing through. the recovery and the rehab. Cause I'm like, I want to get there again to a point where it feels easy, where I enjoy it and where I can just go. Now working with the girls in the trio context gives me armor because it takes the limelight off just a little bit. The limelight's on me for one song in those hour and a half when we take a solo number each. Other than that, I've got, I've got my crutches with two other girls that I sing with. And because I feel more confident, perhaps then I can get into my flow state and sense of a performance a little bit better. But I'd say solo, I find that more difficult to access. But I think you're right, that is what a lot of people do. Yeah, a lot of musicians do. It's amazing to, to hear that. And I'm just, I congratulate you so much because it is not for any of us easy to go through that. There's a lot of self doubt that comes in as you, uh, as you really notice the difference between who you believed yourself to be before and what you believed yourself capable of doing before and where you are now. I can speak to your voice having heard you since the operation. I mean, to me, it's still Nectar. Um, and you're right, you are a very emotional singer. I mean, you're a very emotional being, which is part of why we jam so well together. I'm curious as to, to how your teaching of students has also changed your experience of the voice or of the role of singing and even the experience for the audience, which I'm not. asked you to touch on yet, but certainly for me that becomes in its own way quite a spiritual experience. my first gig actually here in Cape was, in a tiny pub basement in Hampstead, the Rabbit Hole. Echoes of the past. And it was, it was either the first or the second one that was a blacked out gig. It was you and Will on the piano. And because it was pitch black, because we were in a World War II bunker. It was a spiritual experience that, and actually I think that that was the night that I, summed up the bravery to not only say hello, but also ask you to be my teacher. but yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on being a teacher yourself and also the experience for the audience, if anything comes up for you in those two contexts. Come back to what you mean about the audience one in a minute, but I think in terms of being a teacher, I knew that through all this voice work I've had to do to get around this problem in 20 years. That I knew a lot about the way that the voice works and when we've worked together I felt like I have the permission to work anatomically with you because you just, you're really, you get off on that anyway And I can get quite geeky and let's face it. The voice is not one property. It involves so many different parts of your body, the breath, the sub, the subglottic pressures beneath the vocal folds, the resonant spaces, like I just, it's too many to You know, name, it's not one thing, and in order to access all those things, you also have to recognise that you're asking somebody to change a very fundamental part of them in order to bend and shape and expand. So I knew that my, out of my adversity in the voice up, I had become a better teacher and I could hear that the cues that I was giving somebody changed the way that their voice sounded. Giving people the keys to their car. the way that you speak and you sing has served you very well, but if you're coming to me for singing lessons, you clearly want to develop it further. So let's get back in that car and see what other features we could, do you see what I mean? So we're kind of exploring the parameters of that vehicle, that instrument. So I always feel like I've got to create that safe space from the off with that person where they can make a sound that they'd probably be like, what is this? You know, I don't sound like that, but that could be a really new, interesting sound in their voice did you have someone that did that for you? No, and I had very good teachers, but none of them recognised I had a voice problem, which is possibly partly my, not fault, but my doing, because I'm so good at putting on a mask. I'm faking it till I make it, which is both works in your favour and also is good at kind of masking the problems beneath, but, um, because I am so determined, I determined to be the best or be the best of me, perhaps I didn't give anyone a chance to kind of see it because I, like I said to you, I use my voice. I find myself singing in a way which suits my capabilities. I think every singer probably does. But that's created my sound in a weird way, like, I find myself doing phrases or changing melodies to suit my range or to suit. And actually that's kind of become my sound. And you mentioned a wonderful pianist called Will Bartlett, who I've worked with very closely. Will is just, so focused, isn't he? And such an incredible, um, sharer of information in that way, you know, and he and I did a duo together. We did an album together. We explored, it was called Between Us, so he was exploring. Like, how do musicians work together in the moment? So we would do gigs where we wouldn't really plan the set. We might have an idea, but we'd take requests in advance and ask people why they were requesting that song because we wanted to try and do an arrangement that reflected the story behind why that song was so important to them. Will and I became a really sort of homogenous unit as performers and I miss him dreadfully because He's, he's over in Germany and busy and I'm busy being a mum and, you know, we just haven't had that chance to work together and hopefully there's a few opportunities in the pipeline now. But that is such an amazing way of looking at flow because we were actively encouraging that between each other. He'd raise an eyebrow and there'd be a key change, you know, he'd move his hand in this way and then, so we knew each other kind of inside out and it was exciting because that other person could give permission for the music to go somewhere else from where you would have taken it. And then suddenly loads of doors open. And I think that's what we both love about music is there are infinite possibilities. You know, particularly jazz. You know, like, where does it go from here? Do I have to stick to the chords? Do I have to stick to the melody? Do I have to stick to the time signature? Do I have to stick to the You know, it's exciting. And to do that in the moment, gosh. Wow. But that takes a lot of, um, feeling safe. A lot of feeling safe and also you were talking earlier about the foundations, your geeky academic roots, and the foundations are critical. You sort of have to know the fundamentals to your profession in order to be able to then play with the rules. There's something almost about respecting the discipline that means that all of us are constantly in an evolving process of learning, not just learning experientially, but learning academically. And Will, is the most amazing absorber and reconstitutor of information. And yes. another extraordinary being. with your indulgence, I'm going to go a little personal because you, you mentioned that for you, the passion, the fascination is in the why of somebody's story. And we've referenced a few times that you're living this very different life, albeit that it still has huge ties to your singing career and your teaching practice. So. What's the why to how you currently find yourself and where you currently find yourself and to being a mum? I mean, I am, you know, in awe of that transition, there's a lot to do with legacy. Like I always. Believed that I wanted to have children at some level, but there was never really the context with which that all felt like the responsible thing to do. It wasn't in the right relationship, wasn't in the right headspace. But I knew that was something I wanted to do with my partner, um, who I'm, who I've known for six years, seven years. He mixed the solo record I'm talking about, that I did with Will, um, and we've been together, we've been married nearly five years, so yeah, six years. We met later on in life, and he's already got a child, my stepson, Manoa, who's wonderful, he's twelve. And I remember on our first date, he plucked up the courage to ask me out about a year after I met him, and he, he said, uh, Darling, tell me, do you want children? And I thought, is this a trick question? Because you've got one. So are you going to say that's it for me? And I found myself saying, we're the right person. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. And I remember saying to him a few weeks in, not only do I, you know, feel I love you, to have children. So that was always kind of on, On the cast, because, sorry, his response to that was great, me too. Because I thought he was going to be like, No, that's the end of it, I don't want to hear from you. But Noah, my stepson, is just the most wonderful boy. And, you know, and Lee is a wonderful dad. And to have children and bring up children with someone who is so, God, he's just, he's always there. He's consistent. I'm so driven by my emotions. One minute I can be, next minute, eugh, and I don't now need the substances to be that, like, I can do that in my own hormonal makeup. And having a child, of course, is uh, wow, I mean, the hormones you go through producing a child, growing a child, are phenomenal, um, but then once you have them, you know, you, you are there for them, like, they come first, and I was a mum at 39. Thirty eight. Thirty eight. Um, that's a staggering change of pace. I've been a touring musician, I've looked after myself, I'm self employed, I'm self driven, I'm determined. I wouldn't say I'm selfish, but I have, you know what I mean, I've had only really me and then Lee and Noah, obviously, to think about. And that's not to say I don't think about my friends and my family, but in terms of priorities, you know, and I will do this, I will do that. And suddenly it's like, crikey! Uh, I'm exhausted and really thinly strapped, but this little thing still needs me. And that's a very interesting space to be in, because sometimes you're like, I've got to dig very, very deep. And it must be said that after my, um, after it gave birth, I, my overactive thyroid came, came back again. So I had it when I was a teenager, and I guess I didn't have so much responsibility. I was going to music college auditions, but. What, what it did for me this time was knock out my sleep entirely. And everyone goes, oh yeah, but you had a young baby. Yeah, my baby was sleeping and I wasn't sleeping. And you saw me in August, September, and I was on my knees. I was getting between one and three hours sleep a night. And I honestly felt like I was going insane. My sense of reality was slipping sideways. My husband had to come home one day because I was just like Stopped. And that, and for someone who just pushes through, I just didn't. So talk about your body, like, not so out of touch with my body because usually I can just push on through and okay, I can get a bit tired, just go to sleep, wake up, start again. But this was just physically impossible, and you were talking to me about insomnia and what that does, sympathetic nervous system and all that, and I mean, you can, you can tell us more, but that. That nearly broke me, to be honest. It's also, it's much better now. I can't even imagine. And I, I did see you at the time. I mean, bless you. I've never seen you look more pale. Still as determined. Kate arrived to our sessions and would. You know, I haven't slept in a year, but I'm fine. It's all fine. We'll just, you know, push through, bless her. and I think the thing that's most difficult to really appreciate in that state is that the first priority, if we're looking just at you. Because obviously, as you describe, the first priority is actually the babby. That's how any young mother's going to feel, irrespective of what they're going through. Until they get to the point where they are physiologically impeded from being able to look after it, at which point, thankfully, the, the partner returns. But, the first thing from the perspective of the practitioner with the client is actually we have to get your nervous system in this moment as, as easeful as it can be given the physiological background. And, you know, I'm always referring people to medical practitioners or to people in other disciplines because what you're describing is a really deep, hormonal shifting picture that you need really precise guidance on. But from the nervous system perspective, yeah, creating some stability there is. is, is critical. And, and it can be so hard to do to motivate yourself to do, because everything in your wiring is saying run away from the giant pack of tigers that are everywhere around me. and then go to sleep. I mean, it's just, it's, it's crazy. And actually I've worked with people with, with diagnosed insomnia before and, it's a very humbling experience to see how their body. To see their body's capabilities and how reduced they are when they're in a depleted sense of sleep. part of the problem can also be that people so resist that state of sleeplessness that they're then also lying in bed. Storytelling over and over and over again about what tomorrow is going to be like, which of course only increases cortisol and adrenaline in your system and so the whole thing becomes very tricky to make, so I am delighted that you are no longer going through that cycle. For the anti thyroid drugs, that's all I'm going to say, because it did really work. And it's something we were talking about just before we hopped on. In terms of time, like when I came to this mind body kind of thing, it was when I was recovering from this voice op, because I felt so useless. My sense of identity, I couldn't speak. I could not even talk. And so many people said to Lee, Oh, it must be nice and quiet. And he was like, fuck off. I really miss my wife. I love, I love her, you know, and I miss, and he was so supportive and patient and I'll be writing things to him and whatever, but I could not do anything that resembled what I felt to be my sense of worth. I could not even communicate, couldn't talk. I couldn't sing. What was the point? So I spent a lot of time walking, running, listening to other people. I listened to a lot of stories. I listened to all of Philip Pullman. Um, I listened to some Bronte sisters. I listened, I listened to an audiobook of The Chimp Paradox, which I found really interesting at that time. I was going through a lot of, kind of, family stuff as well. And then doing the yoga, the mindfulness, the meditation, and then the Pilates, because you started doing the online Zoom. During COVID, and this is actually another interesting point that I had my voice up in the September before COVID hit. So I spent three or four months as a mute. I was just bemoaning the fact that I couldn't, you know, follow my friends on tour and they were all on Facebook going, ah, just checking into LAX and I was like, ah, I can't hear that talk. Suddenly COVID hits and everybody stopped and weirdly it was such a good timing for me. So lots of people's COVID stories are like, this was devastating. So oddly, I mean, I'm not saying it was all good, it was extremely difficult, but timing wise in terms of the voice up. The fact that I wasn't missing out was quite, it gave me the time to make that connection between mind, body, soul, and so I had the time. I had no calls upon my time apart from getting better. I had to do my voice exercises every three hours. I had to wake myself up in the middle of the night. That's how often. They were tiny, tiny, repetitive exercises and I still didn't have a talking voice for six months. This is the painstaking level of, so I had to get back in touch with my voice. Because I had to believe I could, sorry, with my body, I had to believe I could get out of, I felt trapped behind no voice. I was like, I can't even go to the shops and I can't thank the checker, I can't do anything. So that's when I really disappeared into this kind of Pilates, yoga, breathing, my breathing's totally changed and so, and so, and I really am so happy I had that time to focus on it because now I don't. Because I am a mum, and a busy wife, and a busy step mum, busy friend, busy teacher. And I do get stressed, and I've got those skills to fall back on. Like I don't need, it's not that I don't need to practice them, I don't need to start from the beginning with them. I know that sitting in a dark room, doing some deep breathing, I know going for a run. helps. But that's another point that I gave birth, birth via caesarean section. So I did feel even more trapped with this, this tiredness. I was like, I know that if I just go for a run, I'm gonna feel so much better, but like my body was not able to do it. Um, that was really, that's when I saw you, cause I was like, I've got to get back to being able to do this. And I did the couch to 5k, and now I'm back to running 5, 6, 7k, which is just phenomenal. It's so mind blowing really to hear that list, because you've just described A sequence of giving things up, giving things up that really were your strategies. They were your tools. They were the things you gained the most pleasure out of. They were the things that you gained the most value, purpose, identity out of. And one by one, your life has encouraged you to just strip them away. Strip them away, strip them away. And to bring you back to what is Therefore, the essential quality that lives underneath and also to find new avenues, you know, to find new pleasure in different places. it's just, I'm surprised you haven't written a book by this point. To be honest, I do remember my wonderful therapist saying to me He never told me to stop drinking. That's what made him such a wonderful therapist. He always just kind of led me to these solutions by myself. And that, to me, is the mark of a good therapist. But I remember him saying, One day you will learn. To love life within a more compressed waveform. Like, the highs don't have to be up there and the lows don't need to be down there. And I know you're frightened of a life that looks like that. But it's funny, within that more compressed waveform, I can still take myself up and down quite a bit, I guess. But I am quite all over the place when I need to be. So thank God I have my stabilizing husband and children and, yeah, and friends and family. What an amazing, amazing note to wind our conversation down on. this has just been the most rich and wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and for being so generous with what you shared. before we let you run away, my love, tell us just in a very quick snapshot, what's coming up for you, that you'd like people to know about, or where can they find you? if you want to talk to me further about any of these points and explore your voice more, I do give private remote sessions over Zoom, so you can find me, katemullin733 gmail. com. I don't have a website because I don't want to put myself out in that way. Just come and find me. I'm still doing work with the Puppini Sisters very ardently, and I love performing. Come and see the Puppini Sisters, particularly around Christmas, because it's very festive. and in terms of, yeah, um, solo projects, I don't know. Because I'm focusing on my family, and my little one. And there are fires in the fire, but they need to be stoked a little bit. But honestly, Anthea, it's been a delight to have this conversation in this space. And I love the idea of your podcast. The world needs something like this and needs your voice in it because you are just, just a very special lady. Thank you for having me. Such joy, Wishing you a beautiful day and everyone, I will connect with you next week. Good. Just listeners. Thank you. So. So. much. For your ears. I hope. You enjoy today's. today's. episode. To find. More about our. Featured guests. Have a look in the show. Notes.