Finding Your Way Home; The Secrets to True Alignment

Expert Nutritionist Phoebe Liebling; a nutritionist's secrets to life-long health

• Anthea Bell

Share episode

Phoebe Liebling, aka Natural Nourishment, is an internationally-celebrated Nutritional Therapist, recipe-developer & health consultant. In tandem with her role as Clinical Director of private practice Natural Nourishment Nutrition and Wellbeing, she is Co-Founder of the supplement consultancy brand Nutri Tailor and holistic retreat business, The360.

Phoebe is a champion of both mind-body integration (thus our kinship) and empowerment through education and understanding. She believes passionately in the critical role of nutrition in long-term health; and, that this resource should be accessible to all, irrespective of financial barrier or prior experience. Her goal is that all clients, regardless of condition or personal circumstance, learn to heal themselves through the choices they make around food, their lifestyle habits and emotional wellbeing.

In this rare episode, recorded in Autumn 2023, we hear Phoebe's personal story - the physical history that almost broke her and, in its recovery, forged her passion for enhancing the lives of others.  We discuss the limitations of public healthcare, the dangers of a one-size model of nutritional health, how emotionally complex our relationships with food can be, and how to rebuild if you sense a problem.  In a moment of personal vulnerability, Phoebe discusses the difficulty of asking for help, and how leaning into that discomfort can lead to powerful change.

Phoebe is a true activist for change; utterly dedicated to the work and its ever-wider public reach. To find out about accessing her work, including Nutri Tailor supplementation offers and her upcoming Nicaragua retreat this January, please visit:

https://www.naturalnourishment.me/
https://www.naturalnourishment.me/services/brand-consultancy
https://nutritailor.io/
https://www.your360.life/

AND, to access your SPECIAL Nutri Tailor Discount Code as a listener of Finding Your Way Home, simply enter "WAYHOME" on their website, or use the unique access link here - https://nutritailor.io/discount/WAYHOME 

And as ever dear listeners, for more information on the Finding Your Way Home Podcast, upcoming speakers and events, and 1:1 Embodiment Coaching, visit: 

www.ab-embodimentcoaching.org 

I'd love to hear from you, whatever the reason.

Welcome to Finding Your Way Home, the secrets to true alignment. I'm your host, Anthea Bell, movement teacher, mind body coach, and lifelong spiritual seeker. This is a podcast about the depth, weight, and profound healing power of connection between mind and body, spirit and soul, and from one human to another. Together with an incredible range of inspiring guests, we'll explore just what connection and alignment mean. How to get there in a world full of the temptation to conform, and how great challenge ultimately can lead to life changing transformation. Get ready for groundbreaking personal stories, conversational deep dives, and a toolkit of strategies to build not just your inner knowing, but your outer world. Let's dive in.

Anthea:

Welcome everyone to Finding Your Way Home, We are here today with Phoebe Liebling. She is an incredible nutritionist a teacher. not just about nutrition, but about wellbeing, sustainability, longevity. So I'm so excited to dive in. We are getting Phoebe on one of the drizzliest days And so she's curled up on her sofa with her puppy, which is actually a really beautiful way of seeing her in contrast to her more professional, formal life thank you, sweet one for being with me for letting me cozy up on the sofa with you.

Phoebe:

I mean, it was an invitation I couldn't possibly refuse. I basically jumped through the computer to answer your email saying, Yes, I want to be there. I'm really excited.

Anthea:

So a lot of people know your work. if you're not familiar with Phoebe, she produces an enormous amount of free content. within a sector where nutrition advice, especially high quality nutrition advice is quite difficult to come by if you don't have the financial wherewithal. I'm wondering if you might be able to give us a little taste of what it was that got you into this vein of thinking, into this line of work. What is it that fires your passion to support people in a very detail oriented, personalized way.

Phoebe:

I think, the story starts with me feeling very let down by the medical, profession. Um, I grew up in a family, my mom's a physiotherapist, and so, for me, Like medical knowledge is something that I had a baseline of, and when I went to uni to do my first degree, which was in environmental geology, just something totally different from what I do now, but again, very science based, I became quite unwell, caught a virus, and it was completely misdiagnosed, mistreated. In a classic way that I was a student, I was away from home, I went to a student GP practice and I was bounced backwards and forwards and everyone just sort of said, Oh, you've picked up fresh as flu. You've probably eaten something. You evidently aren't looking after yourself particularly well. And I came from a family with very strong women who taught me how to cook from the moment that I could stand on my own two feet. And so I was probably one of the only students who did actually cook from scratch and ate really well. Scan forward about four years, I was put on medication after medication, saw every ologist, became agoraphobic, couldn't go outside, dropped about three and a half stone in weight, couldn't eat anything, made it through my degree, but life was incredibly hard, and I came home a shell of the person that I was when I left, and obviously, because of the type of degree I did, I didn't go home that much because I always had field trips. So when my mum saw me properly, she went, oh my god, what's happened? Um, decided that I should come off the medication and I went to go and see an acupuncturist to try and deal with this chronic anxiety that I was dealing with every day. And the only answer I got from anyone apart from this acupuncturist was just keep taking the meds. If you've got to this stage, chronic pain, chronic fatigue, no period, you've just got to cope with it. The only answer that we have is more medication. Um, and the acupuncturist got me to see a naturopath. Um, and she said to me, have you thought about the fact that your gut health isn't... particularly good and you are reacting to foods, but there's no pattern. I think that you have an issue with gluten and I think that your immune system is responding to it. So I took gluten out and was still having some symptoms. So then I had to take dairy out as well, but it turned out that I had an induced gluten and dairy allergy as a result of this virus attacking my digestive system and my immune system then going totally mad. Um, I then decided that I wanted to be that person because she actually looked at me as a holistic individual and said We need to get you back your life, but she also spoke to me in a way that she actually explained Things because when you go to a lot of doctors, they're incredibly good at what they do But their modality doesn't give them an opportunity to then talk to people And we all have a level of understanding some of us obviously Are more medically inclined than others. But what I decided was that I would never let anybody be in a situation where the information was there, but they couldn't access it. I don't necessarily think that I myth bust, but I, break it down for people, because if you hear a sentence that's in medical terminology, even very simple things, like if somebody uses the word hypertension, that just means high blood pressure. But if you say high blood pressure, and then you explain why somebody's got high blood pressure, as opposed to saying they're hypertensive because of an electrolyte imbalance, All of a sudden you've given that person the opportunity to be in charge of what they then do about it, or at least understand why they then have to put in some effort to change it. So, Yeah, that was, that was my routine. I had my own process and I sort of decided that I didn't ever want to let anybody be in my shoes again, if I had the opportunity to share the knowledge I then gained through my training to mean that that's not what they had to do.

Anthea:

that's so amazing. you really make me think about the parallelism between our two disciplines because one of the things that we, that we really emphasize in movement is that when you start to use words that are very musculoskeletal or that go into a huge number of labels that people have very strong emotional associations with, you're really creating a lot of disempowerment in the person That you're working with and there can be such this tendency within British culture and I know in other places as well to create hierarchy when someone has done a training, when they have gotten to a certain level of success in their field, it will be very easy for people to put you on a pedestal. And actually my sense from being around your work for a little time now is that that is exactly the opposite of what you're wanting. You're wanting to give people the tools so that they can create their own healing journey, which is of course more of what the world needs in every single sense.

Phoebe:

Thanks. Absolutely. I mean, I have always said, and everyone always laughs and like, it's the worst business model. But my idea is that I want to make my clients not need me anymore. I want, I want to make myself redundant in their lives by giving them the education and the tools they will come to me for. Maybe a specific health issue or it's more that they've heard some things and they just want to personalize the nutrition or whatever it is. But what I want to give them is that fundamental knowledge of how to take all of the information that we're bombarded with and say, I cherry pick this for me. This is how I adapt it to my lifestyle, my routine, my family situation, my working life. And this is how I feel good. But again, it also ties in with the fact that we have evolved now To look for very quick fixes and assume that if there is a problem, we then address it, and then it's gone. When in actual fact, we can't give the responsibility of our health and well being to anybody else. We can ask for guidance, and we can be educated, but we have to put in that effort. on an everyday basis by healthcare trying to take that onus away from people, it then means that people will become more unwell because they don't look internally to say, well, that's, that's the how to, but I've still got to build the bookshelf.

Anthea:

Would I be right in thinking that a lot of people come to you and they're actually in quite a deep state of physical and potentially cognitive fear around all of this because they've got symptoms that are going on that they have absolutely no educational background to really understand? I mean, I'm presuming part of your role when you first start working with someone is actually, can I? give them the information that will initially help to calm them down so that their body can start to do what it's naturally wired to do if it's given the right conditions.

Phoebe:

Absolutely. And this is, this is something, cause I do a lot of mentoring with young practitioners and part of, I think what I do on social media, it's not necessarily designed to go to the people who don't, who then don't need a practitioner, but it's, it's also designed to educate other practitioners to how we should be looking after people. But it's this idea that actually if you listen to somebody, they will tell you exactly what they need. some people will come to me and they have chronic or complex digestive issues or an autoimmune disorder or whatever it is. And so I go, okay, yes, that's, that's very important. We need that long term change within your diet to mean that that's not going to be something that continues to cause you dis ease or harm or disrupt your quality of life. But what is it about your every day, right now, that is causing you to be unhappy? And somebody will say something along the lines of, Oh my goodness, I get super bloated when I eat, or etc, etc, etc. But when I'm actually looking at them, I say, But your body language is telling me that you're actually guarding... Your facial skin like why is that so important to you and they'll say oh, well, I've never had bad skin I can deal with the fact I've had digestive issues for 20 years, but in the last two years I've suddenly got acne and I go, okay Well, the thing is if if we talk about that, it's obviously related But I'm going to now put a lot more onus in the short term on making you feel comfortable in your skin by sorting out the acne because otherwise I'm not listening to you. for some people, it's a really difficult one. As soon as they join the call we all say hello and we sort of get to know each other and I say right now I'm not going to ask you any questions. I've got your pre consultation documentation already done so I have a bit of back history. But now I just want you to brain dump on me. everything. Don't think about what you're saying. Just start from when you get up in the morning, what happens during the day. I don't say anything until they stop. And for some people it can be 20 minutes. For some people, they get quite nervous and anxious about presenting themselves, which I can then obviously relate to and see that's part of something we need to work on because they don't feel comfortable in themselves. But a lot of people never speak like that. They never actually have anyone to listen to them. Um, so yeah, we just do this brain dump moment. I go, okay, right. That was super interesting. And they'll apologize, apologize along the way and sort of say, Oh, sorry, am I saying too much? No, carry on. And just wait and see what happens when they're done. it shows you as a practitioner, truly what somebody needs if you just let them speak.

Anthea:

It also allows them to trust you. you were making me laugh because I was in the States this summer and have been blown away by the difference in speaking there. And I'm sure it's not universal across the States, but certainly there was a deep awareness of a cultural difference between how I was brought up in the UK and what I witness even in professional dynamic in the UK, because you're talking about a scenario where someone is coming to you intimately, you're on zoom or you're in person, there is no one else there. There is no one else there and they've literally paid the money to see someone who they have placed. theoretical, financial, and health based trusting. And yet, and yet, as soon as you ask them to describe what's coming up for them, with this real welcome of, you can tell me anything, we have such an inbuilt sense of holding back from... I wonder if even it's the health equivalent of the fear of vulnerability. If I let you know all of these things, then you're going to make some conclusion about how terribly I'm looking after myself. And you don't know the background that I'm looking after three young kids. I mean, you must get that so much. People really. Wearing themselves very, very thin, trying to look after other people, and of course, the thing that they've completely neglected is the only thing that's actually critical in order that they be able to show up and be of service, which is what's, what's going on in the centre, what's happening. In your being.

Phoebe:

I think also it's because within health, exercise, nutrition, we are fed this constant barrage of ideals. And no one fits an ideal. Whether it's that you see these, I always laugh about this because people put me in this bubble of influences on social media, and I literally just kind of like raise an eyebrow because I say, well, I have a job. Influencers, their job is to do stuff on social media. So if you see their morning routine, They jump out of their beautifully made bed, which they then make again. They spend 45 minutes meditating, go for a lovely long walk, have a matcha, prepare a beautiful breakfast. It takes them four and a half hours, but they are this wonderfully glowing individual, and this is how. We should be doing things, or you have the other extremes of people who all the time and you don't have that time, you don't have that storage, if you don't have all of your meals for the entire week perfectly prepped and they're all exactly the same and identical and they look aesthetically beautiful, you've failed, so there's this constant thing of if you can't fit one of those people's molds You've got it wrong already, so why would you try? Or, you should feel like You should be constantly apologizing for not meeting what society is expecting of you. So the other thing that I spend a lot of time saying to people is, it really doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. The most liberating thing you can give yourself is the freedom to be unique. Just enjoy that. You are your own person. I, I used to be not a people pleaser, but I grew up in a central London girl's school. Everything is quite. Rigid in terms of how you fit in and there's all this judgment and the moment I went to university up in Leeds I left all of that behind and I have never felt So good when I sort of went I literally don't care What do you think? I'm going to be me in my own skin and That's gonna be weird some days. It's gonna be combative with some people It's not gonna gel but by being me I will find You Those people who actually support me in my life. I'll find my own path, which gives me a life that I'm proud of and I enjoy doing. I'm going to stop trying to do stuff for other people. But again, we often would label that as selfish, which it isn't. understanding what you need in order to be whole, which from that point, you can then be everything to everyone else rather than being fragmented and having weird interactions with people in the world around you. That was a bit off tangent.

Anthea:

You know what podcast you're on, that was not off tangent at all. That was perfectly on point. so for the listeners, funny story that Phoebe and I actually went to exactly the same, quite tightly wound North London girls school and, achievement was, was definitely an enormous thing, academic achievement. And You've also really generously sort of referenced a little bit about your, background before training as a, as a nutritionist. And, and I would definitely describe you as someone that loves the geeky detail. I think it's partly why we get on so well. It is sort of embarrassing. You can set us down with, uh, with academic textbooks. And actually we would just be really happy for a day without noticing that no one else is around. But I think what you're also beautifully demonstrating is this place where you really have to also be able to feel that you really, really have to also be able to internally investigate. And that's not all going to come from your head. So a lot of the practices that you guide people to take up in their day to day existence, they're actually very somatic based practices, going out for a walk, getting morning light, and you'll always explain the why. And I love that because again, you're arming people with the motivation. It's, it's inbuilt. so you give the reasons, but my sense is it's much bigger than that. It's actually to do with, Can I really value myself enough to live a life where I'm truly enriched in every sense that I need to be, nutritionally, in terms of natural exposure, in terms of even the way that I treat my skin, what products am I bathing myself in, what do those products have within them?

Phoebe:

so one of my favorite phrases, I guess, to explain this to people is that dissociation drives disease, and we often label it as sort of hyperstimulation or overuse of the stress response, but we live in a world now which is designed to overstimulate our entire being. but also completely rip mind and body away from each other. So, a lot of the time with stuff like the somatic thing, so stuff that's lodged internally, is I will get people who have chronic headaches, or they've got chronic acid reflux, and I listen to what they're saying, and I look at the dietary patterns, and I say, the thing is, can you actually touch your diaphragm? and this could be on a Zoom call, and I'll just be kind of looking at their posture, and I'll say, Okay, right, so if I get you to like test by touching that central bit of your diaphragm, where your lower esophageal sphincter would be, which is where people are going to get that heartburn sensation, and they literally can't touch it, and I say, Okay, right, so how do we feel about touching the rest of your abdomen? And they can't do it. And I say, okay, well, so if we investigate that a little bit, tell me about what your childhood was like in terms of eating habits. And they'll say, oh, yes, no, I, I lived in a very normal family and we just had the normal thing of, you had to finish your plate before you left the table. And sometimes like mom and dad would be a little bit. stern with each other around the table, or that's how we had big family discussions. And I say, and if you think about that now, where do you feel that sensation? And I go, yeah, actually, it feels like I've got a little bit of reflux. then, is it? It's a diaphragmatic spasm due to the fact that you've lodged all of that emotional trauma in and around there, which is also what we refer to as the solar plexus. those, I guess, are the more complex things where I'm trying to actually get somebody to understand how impactful their emotional health is on their physical health, but also it's a bi directional conversation. Because if your physical health isn't good, it's going to impact your emotional well being. But also. Your emotional health is going to directly impact what's going on physically and physiologically. when I am forming a relationship with somebody, you've got to have those little tools when you can solve the minutiae in order to be able to get them to do the big stuff. If somebody works for eight to ten hours on the screen every single day, even if their ergonomics are beautiful, so they've got their screen at eye height, and they're sitting in a wonderfully supportive chair, and I say, okay, well, just tell me about what's going on in your body. Like, do you get neck pain? Do you get eye ache? Do you have back pain? What are you doing for your physical activity? And very common that people will do an office job. And then they'll go to the gym once a day, maybe walk to and from work with a backpack on. and they've got terrible back and neck ache, and headaches as well. And I say, right, do you use a chest strap for your backpack? And they go, no. And I'm like, okay, well, all of a sudden, that's your shoulders all over the place. And what are you doing for physical exercise? And they'll say, oh, I am spinning or cycling and I run and I lift weights. And I go, Is there any mobility going on there? And they go, no. And I go, okay, right. So now we've got all of those structures that are very forward facing, just tightening up and curving your body over. And then you're staring at a screen where your eyes are fixed in space and all the words move rather than you moving your eyes. When you're reading a book, because the text is static, because we've now created this convenience for ourselves, where we don't have to try for anything. So I'll get them to do very simple eye exercises, like looking up to the top corner without moving their head, and they'll go, Oh my god, it feels like you're ripping my eyes out, and I go, okay. You don't actually have an issue with your neck or your, shoulders necessarily, that's not what's causing the headache. You're focusing muscles and your eyes have just got really tight and they'll go, oh, okay. And I'll go, right, so simple eye exercises. That's something we can solve in 8 to 10 days. And that's, I like those little ones because then the next time I'll ask them and I'll go. I haven't had a headache since we spoke last. And I was like, and did you do the exercise? And they're like, yeah, I do them every night. I was like, great. That's what I like. I like the fact you've forgotten that they were even there.

Anthea:

people really like little tiny actions. It's so motivating. It allows them to come to the next session feeling as though they've really achieved something, which of course they have,

Phoebe:

when I've come to see you in your magic wonderland of trying to sort out my ever falling apart body, you've done exactly the same thing for me. And then I go, Oh my God, I've been doing those exercises. And then I've realized that my performance in all of the other lovely sporting things that I do is now completely different. And I feel really pleased with myself because I get a little gold star because I've done my homework. But it's also worked and it's those tiny little things that we both give everyone that just means that they build that confidence internally and they go, can do it, and I am doing it. And that's what we as educators and carers and clinicians and teachers, That's what we're giving people, that little hint that they are in charge. which is something that pretty much everything else in the world tells you that you're not.

Anthea:

Well, it's really fascinating because what I was about to ask you, which perfectly ties into this, is this distinction that you're making between agency and control. I definitely would hold up my hand and say that I'm someone that has used control to fantastic effect, for, for periods in my life. And They've overlapped with massive workaholism. And you do in our society get very applauded for the degree to which you are able to display your invulnerability and your ability to achieve. I'm wondering if you'd be happy to just talk a little bit about that distinction because when you were explaining earlier that you have some clients that come to you and, you know, they'll be very regimented in their meal prep I'm picturing that sometimes that is from a motivational perspective, the most wonderful gift that you give yourself. I have this afternoon that I spend on a Sunday, and I've got all of my ingredients from the local farmers market and it's a delight the actual process of getting the food right to. making the food and you've got, you know, the archers on in the background. I'm envisaging my perfect Sunday afternoon. but you've kind of got that, that image and that's one way of approaching it. And then going back to your point about compare and despair and the ideals that we're fed, even just aesthetically, you know, in the school that we went to, girls attention to their bodies was rife to such awful consequence for pretty much every year in our school, I would say. And that's, typical. but there'll be some people that go into that meal prep and it becomes this very rigid, I have to do this. Otherwise my health is at risk or my value within society is at risk.

Phoebe:

the way that I would decide how to approach something with somebody clinically is when I listen to how they talk about their food. like when we're talking about prepping meals, similarly, For me, it's an incredibly important part of my life to eat well, I don't do it because I have to, I do it because I want to, I get a real sense of enjoyment from going to the fridge and finding that I have got the components of something that is going to be delicious and nourishing, but also I can feel the difference when I don't do that for myself and I realize now, it's actually a form of not caring, the moment I start not eating well or I don't allocate time outside walking the dog or going and doing a workout. I know that for whatever reason I've turned my back on myself. And so for me, there's, that's the language I use towards it. It's actually a positive form of investment. Now, if somebody were to come to me and they are meal prepping, but they are literally prepping exactly the same thing every single week, then I start to pick apart and I'm saying, Is the reason that you're doing the same thing every single week because you don't have the skills or the knowledge to cook something else. So you have highlighted broccoli, brown rice, and chicken as healthful foods that you know how to cook. And so that's what you do. If in that's the case, absolutely fine. We're going to do broccoli, brown rice, and chicken for three days of the week. And then the other four days of the week, we're going to do quinoa, turkey. and cauliflower. So simple swaps and you gradually build on adding pesto into the grains. Or adding spices onto the meats or using another vegetable, and that's just about an education process. Then you have people who won't budge because they've attached an emotion to it. And whether that is that it's restriction, because they are calorie counting, or they are fearful of other foods because they're not sure of what... What they should be eating, we had a period of time where we talked a lot about orthorexia, which was this fixation on clean eating. And this comes down to sensationalist headlines in the media, where people are told that this is the absolute rigid ideal. And it wasn't focused so much about calorie restriction, but it was about certain foods are good and certain foods are bad. And that then starts to get people in situations where they are fearful of consuming, say, fats or carbohydrates or certain kinds of proteins or eating in a social situation where they're out of control. And that is something. different and it has to be pulled apart very, very gently. So what I would tend to do there is offer up different situations and watch somebody's face as they respond, because they can say words and they can mean something totally different. And when you're going down behavioral and control issues with food, I won't say that people lie. But they will manipulate the truth a lot of the time because they're scared and it's you have to approach it as a form of true fear and semi almost as a form of addiction because it's, it's, it's neither of the two completely, but it's a combination. So what I would tend to do is find what somebody's boundary is and do a chaining effect. So I would ask them to change maybe one or two elements. across the period of two to three weeks and see how they work with that. And once you've broken the back of it, often people will kind of tumble and they will be happy to do that. Or it might be that those habits are so ingrained, they need additional help it's a really difficult one because it's such a huge question after 10 years of doing this, I've seen so many different things. but I would say that I have seen probably in the last couple of years a really promising change in the way that people talk about food generally since we've had the slow food movement kind of coming back through since probably the pandemic, when people were cooking a lot more, there is a sense of people looking at food as nourishment, as opposed to as a bargaining chip. Now, it's not for everybody. There are still a significant amount of people who look at food as a stabilizing element because they have lack of control or frustrations in the rest of their life. but I would say there is a shift somewhere that the education around how to look after ourselves is happening and I, I live in a lovely dark green bubble. what I am trying to do with a lot of the projects I do now is provide access. To everybody because I feel that everybody deserves that functional medicine and nutritional therapy for the amount of time that people get from me, there is an element of you have to be able to financially access it,

Anthea:

I think you're totally right. there's definitely more of a feeling of pride in produce, even on a very simple level. I think the fact that sustainability has become Such a big at the forefront topic means that people do just tend to think a little bit more now and because there have been more inflammatory stories in the media about what is contained in various different kinds of products, not just nutrition based, but you know, what does the cleaning liquid that you use to clean your sheets? what are you lying in every night? from a scientific perspective, what's the impact of that on your body? Same as the mattress that you sleep on. And so. think these topics are becoming a lot more public. the net effect is probably quite useful because it does make people prioritize those things that previously seemed unimportant or, that we're living such a sort of a numbed life of overstimulation, as you say, that we're not really attending to the things that we actually are in direct control of, you know, I can decide my day if I choose to. am I making the choice actually? Or am I abstaining from the choice because the belief system that I have is so ingrained to make me feel as though my own choices as an individual both aren't the priority and probably aren't going to be accepted., there was something that was coming up for me when you were talking about price point I'm curious as to whether that was something that you struggled with, setting a monetary price to the work that you do, because I don't want to say that price that we set for our services is the same as value. I wholly believe the opposite. But I do think there's a reality that if you have spent a huge amount of money on the training that you have, and the continual training that you do, and if you are trying to serve, Not just people in a one to one context, but create and launch quite meaty projects, which I'm going to ask you to tell us about in a little bit. But there is a reality that there does need to be an element of financial compensation for that. I'm really curious as to what your experience with that has been. Was that tough for you?

Phoebe:

It was, I was quite lucky in terms of, as a clinician, you don't necessarily come out with a qualification that then also makes you a business person, which is where a lot of my peers and colleagues have suffered or have not gone into practice because there's a huge amount that goes into the running of a has a, Business as well as doing it every day. because my mom is a physio when I was training, I ran her practice as it expanded. So I had that administrative knowledge behind me. I undercharged for my services as everybody does, as I was growing, but that's when you earn your stripes. you have to be available. You have to be free. You have to decide what your voice is. And then you build your experience. Because also, within the first two to three years of your practice, there is absolutely no way that you have enough experience with people to charge astronomical amounts of money. because you won't have encountered enough people in order to understand how to adapt the paper theory knowledge that you know. to a person in front of you. So it probably took me about five years to get to the stage where I then raised my prices because also what I found is the novelty of doing something that you truly enjoy only gets you so far when you spend your entire day outpouring care and attention to other people. for me in those first few years of working. I felt so refilled just by the fact that I was doing something that I loved, that the fact that I wasn't really making any money didn't matter to me. So then when I got to the stage where I was probably holding a good 150 people, over the course of my experience at that point, I realized I was starting to get tired and there were moments when I didn't want to do my job. And I was feeling a pushback from myself and I describe this to people in all aspects of their life. It can appear anywhere, but it's your fulfillment to frustration ratio. So where are you getting your fulfillment versus the energy that we all have to give out on a daily basis? And when we start pushing back from tasks that we know we have to do, it's because we're not getting something from somewhere else. So I then got to a stage where I. Decided that I was confident enough in my skills and it was established enough in my client base and my practice to value my services where they are now. people have said, the way that you make more money is you give people less and I will never be that person. Everyone who comes through my door will always get the same level of care and attention. If they email me, I will answer, even if it's email of, The best one, 56 attachments, they had been diagnosed with a gluten intolerance. And they needed to understand what this was, and so I'd written them a very detailed plan with PDF lists of like food swaps of things they were currently eating for what they should then eat. And they'd gone into a Planet Organic, and I kid you not, taken a photo of every single thing. on the hot food counter back when they still had those pre covid, which have labels on them that tell you all the ingredients, and they wanted me to go through and tickle cross. Every single one. And I made myself a cup of tea and I did it because it's what they needed I clarified that I wasn't going to do that all the time. But what they were saying to me is, I feel at sea. I don't feel confident. I need you. to do the work for me. But it's, it's a big one because I think that. We all have to live and we all have to live in a way that is supportive of where we want to get in our lives. And the brilliant thing about so many people who work in caring professions is that they do it because they love it. But people, end up leaving your profession if you don't get the rewards you deserve. It's making sure that your time is valued at a level that you can continue to do what you love doing.

Anthea:

Yeah. It's so beautiful to hear you. Thank you so much for explaining that in detail. Cause I think it's extremely transferable to any profession actually, but particularly anything within the holistic wellbeing, physical mind, body space. So one can do a lot of things in one's own life, certainly setting the price for the service that you provide is one of those things. it's quite an autonomous decision, But I'm wondering how important you feel it is for practitioners to be supported by other practitioners. Because you were talking earlier about this side of your work, which is more the mentoring side, coaching young professionals into greater levels of confidence. And I do the same in both the mental health sense and in the physical sense. And I also know that for those of us that expend a lot of time supporting others, it can be very tempting still to self source our self care. But not always necessarily to have the padding of having other people around you, even if they're not medical experts, but just having the padding of really bloody brilliant people in your life that are your cheerleaders. I'm just wondering about your experience of that, allowing others to to sort of hold you a little bit.

Phoebe:

So this is something that I have. Learned and I continue to learn I've always been an incredibly independent Person right from when I was a child my dad still tells the story to everybody who he ever meets But from when I was about three or four apparently my favorite phrase was I'll do it I'll do anything. I would try And he was like, you try and put your own shoes on way before you were able to do that. And you try and walk out the door with, like, one shoe on and the sock over the other shoe, which was on your hand. But I was determined that I was going to do it. I had a fabulous family life. I was very lucky, but there were dynamics within it due to other things that happened. that meant that I became an adult in some senses much earlier than I may have done otherwise. And I realized through kind of exploring this as I've got older, I felt like I was often encouraged to behave like an adult, but without having the voice of an adult. within the family dynamic. and then obviously I was unwell, which was a thing. I came out and I started a business. I've only been employed for three months of my adult life. So I've always been self employed, which is great fun. But when you do that on your own, You don't have a day off. Your days are 36 hours long. You don't have money to get somebody to build your website for you, so you watch YouTube videos in the middle of the night and will learn how to use WordPress, which is honestly the worst thing that I've ever done. And you find ways to hack job things together. But then you build walls and I fell into situations with romantic relationships where I just, I was always looking for somebody to need me, but I was never letting them look after me. And I'm incredibly lucky to have found a wonderful human being who bears me in all of my many facets. But he understands, he sees the moments when actually. What I need is to be taken out for a walk or he doesn't need to stop me doing what I'm doing But he just needs to remind me that there is another world away from everything and that weekends aren't work days That actually taking a break is probably the most productive thing I can do. And when I have a moment when I get a little bit snippy, it's not because I'm in a bad mood, it's probably just that I've stressed myself out because I'm thinking about what's happening in six months time. And I'm worried that I'm not going to be able to do all of the things that I want to do and look after all the people that I want to. I feel like this is the bit that makes me quite human to a lot of people. Because I'll go in fits and spurts, and I've, I've done all the stupid things that everybody does, which is to drink loads of coffee and go and run huge amounts of distance and crash my adrenal system, and then go, for God's sake, why have you done that? And I know better, and I don't do that now, but I've been through those cycles. I can relate to them, I can empathize, I can see that they sometimes sneak up on us. without us really realizing that's what we're doing. we are all human and I am a work in progress, but I think that's also quite a nice thing to keep working on.

Anthea:

it's a wonderful thing, because it means that you're always curious about what you can expand into. I think growth edges are the most wonderful gift. I'm at risk of swearing again, but a friend of mine always uses the phrase, another effing growth edge. And it's, you know, It's sort of the reality if you work within this space that you can't not be internally practicing what you're preaching. And that doesn't just mean doing the prep and doing the walks and making sure your supplementation is good. It means, really being willing to recognize where there are boundaries internally that prevent you from showing up in your fullness. You were talking about fullness earlier when you were describing some of your clients and, if we don't have the capacity to let other people look after us and I, hand on heart, you know this about me as well, I struggle with it. I, um, was having a conversation with a new friend who's wonderful, a couple of weeks ago and she's, um, she's been going through something huge, And she was saying that, she can't cry. she just can't cry. And, I think this was quite a surprise to her, but I shared with her that actually the same thing is true for me. occasionally I can now cry with another person there, but actually the only context that I tend to cry are if I collide with something physically. Which happens, I've got dyspraxia, so occasionally I do hit my head. Which is always a really brilliant wake up call. I am suddenly awake. But also, if I'm in a public space, And if no one is really watching, so if I'm in a cafe and I'm sitting by the window and there are people behind me and I'm listening to music, then I can do it. And it's just the tears, every other kind of emotional connection, other ways of connecting with my emotions, all good. But that particular piece of the somatic puzzle, that for me is still quite difficult. And so thank you for humanizing, your own context, because I do think that that's very encouraging. Especially for people that work with you or follow you on Instagram or come to your beautiful retreats, I think it's really important to know that your practitioner is also, to their own degree, a very, very human person.

Phoebe:

the interesting thing with tears is they make us incredibly vulnerable. my... issue with actually showing emotion was that I was then able to be a target, which was one of the issues that we had within our family, which was just due to other dynamics. if you looked weak, the other people who were hurting would come after you. So I could only cry when I was really angry. I would never cry when I was upset. But I'd get these moments of unbelievable blind rage, which, having done a lot of trauma processing through EMDR, which I listened to a most fabulous podcast yesterday, showing how it actually changes the shape of your brain, which is incredible. it's fascinating. but yes, it was this idea that I would get this blind fear and rage and actually get like a burning sensation in my chest and like a clamping down on my chest and then I would cry. And when I was upset, I wouldn't cry, I'd actually feel like a sense of numbness, I'd get the sort of overwhelming sensation that my head and my body had completely dissociated from each other. something would hurt and I'd swallow it and I'd feel it in my throat. And then nothing would happen. And when I started to explore this, I actually realized that this rage that I was feeling, that was upset. That was how I was having to deal with it, because I was so frustrated about never having the sensation of having a voice. I was crying because I was so hurt. But I had nowhere to put it. But then what we started to do over time is... Remove all of those signs. So you poke a face it when you've got to that stage where trauma starts to lodge itself all around your body, you don't show it emotionally, you feel it physically. And that's, another one of those sort of fabulously interesting things that I love delving into with people and just I guess touching on your point about being padded. One of the things that I do also always impress to people is that you must always know your scope of practice. Because one of the things I think that people do that is a huge disservice to those who come to see them and again, there are incredible practitioners out there, who I heard the best thing the other day, who's charging 995 pounds an hour. Wow. I was like, wow. Okay, that's fine. But I wonder at what point they say that they can't do what you're asking them to do. Because actually, it's not that I don't see certain people, but there are certain things that I know other practitioners are better at than I am. Or that's their speciality. And in that situation, I could serve that person perfectly well, but they would be better under somebody else's care. So again, one of the things I think you learn is when to say no, because when you're a young practitioner. You want to see everyone. You want to build that client base. Well that comes up, and as you get a little bit older, you go, that's fine, and I will absolutely put you in the diary, but I'd love you to have a conversation with this person first and just see if you think they're going to be better suited for you. Sometimes people say no, word of mouth, recommendation, I want to come and see you, And half the time, they'll go and see the other person and thank you, I think is an important distinction to be able to make.

Anthea:

it's so important. again, it comes back to how much you can trust the practitioner that you're working with I do exactly the same thing partly because I've had so much teaching around scope of practice and so many people that come into the physical space are carrying things within their bodies that are so beyond the scope of most. Physical practitioners, And so to be able to do that implies two things for me. It implies, first of all, this beautiful collegiate. feeling You can't really be a practitioner in the area of healing without sharing that in and amongst this tribe of other people who believe in the same ethos. So I think that you've brought that up as really beautiful. And I think it's really important because going back to the point about money. You know, I remember having a conversation with a colleague about six years ago where she said, I'm so stressed about finance that every time a client comes in, I'm seeing the the pound sign on their forehead. she was appalled that that was coming up in her. we could dive into the whole money shame question mark, but it was really significant. And, I think part of the reason that we end up feeling as though we're in competition with other practitioners is exactly that, this scarcity mentality that sits implicit underneath the surface a lot of the time. And, you know, it brings up this question for me around marketing ourselves. you know, I've referenced your, your social media presence a few times because for me, actually, that's how I found out about you in the first place. it does its job, right? You get connected to people And I think it's a really tricky thing to work with in some respects because you have to constantly come back to what gives me integrity, what's the voice that is truly mine, When am I actually manipulating people's fear? And I see that so much within the well being space and within the spiritual space as well. I'm gonna give you the belief that if you pay me this amount of money, I will transform you. And, it's such an awful thing. And I have compassion for it coming up in practitioners.

Phoebe:

Yeah. within Functional and Holistic Health we're never going to fix somebody. we don't treat you, we enhance you, we support you, we help you evolve over time, and that is a healing process, but you're not giving a pill for an ill, and I think that if we lower ourselves to a level of being a sensationalist as a media headline, to me, you've immediately lost all of your professional integrity, because health should always have a positive voice to it. within the nutrition sphere, It's quite difficult because nutritional therapist isn't a protected term. So somebody can do an online course within three to four weeks and call them a nutritional therapist. So people have to understand how somebody like me is different, but I'm not going to sit there and say, look at that person. They don't have a degree. You should believe me instead. I'm just going to positively enforce my knowledge base and give as much as I can and show people who I am. And ignore the negative voices. So I think that for anybody. Who's looking to start out social media is amazing back when my mom started her clinic she and her business partner literally sat in their clinic and Handed out flyers and waited for people to walk in and they build business over 40 years, which was incredibly successful and looked after thousands of people And well done them, but that's not the world we live in now You have to be confident enough in yourself and be confident enough to know what makes you individual. it's funny because I do have a lot of young practitioners who, follow me on social media and will ask me questions and then I obviously see what they're doing on their social media. And the amount of times I see them copying other things, I'm just like, don't do it. you are your own human being. Yes, that person is getting a thousand likes on every single post that they do, but Do you just want a thousand likes or do you want people who truly come to you because they respect you as the clinician that you are? The problem is there's a huge amount of imposter syndrome. I still have moments when I log onto my Instagram and not today, can't do it, can't think of anything of worth, no one's going to be interested, why do I even bother, I should sack it all in. and then I leave social media alone for a day, or a week, or whatever it is, and then I come back renewed and just say, okay, well obviously I was pouring too much out of my cup and not pouring enough in. I guess I'm now rambling a little bit it's about finding your core and deciding what it is that you want people to know about you that is special and if it's because you've got a ridiculous sense of humor and you have a puppy or you're completely obsessed with like random recipes that use organ meats I don't know who you might be describing. Absolutely definitely not me. find your special thing and then do not overcomplicate it the mistake that I made from the beginning was trying to fix everything all in one go and thinking about what I was doing every day and what I found interesting off the back of four years of clinical study. So. Make it simple. People literally want to know what to eat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And they want to know how to make a shepherd's pie really delicious, but also nutritious. They don't need to know how to, I don't know, ferment mung beans just yet. They will do at some point, but for right now, give them things that they can easily access. Give them nuggets of information that they can go, Oh my goodness, I finally understand. This whole blinking mess about whether I should be having coconut oil, butter, ghee, avocado oil, agave, honey. I know, when that noise comes, what they're actually saying and what decision I make. So, simple, actionable. That's, that's all people want.

Anthea:

can I bring us onto that? Because I know that you are literally at the precipice of this. Enormous project that you have been working so, so diligently to bring to the fore alongside the rest of our clinical work, which, as far as I can tell, Phoebe hasn't done any less of. So we're doing a little shout out Tell us a little bit about NutriTailor.

Phoebe:

So NutriTailor is the project I think I've always wanted to do and never worked out how it was going to make work. again, big shout out to the wonderful man who stands by me through wind, rain, and temper tantrums. He showed me how I could make this possible. I have always been quite upset by the supplement industry because I think it's similar to the food industry in many ways, but it plays on people's lack of understanding and so you see these huge things all over tube stations in magazines of you're tired you need iron or You should take magnesium because it's going to help with your energy levels or your muscle cramps but then the understanding ends there and similarly to how we wouldn't expect to know how to prescribe ourselves medication Why do we think that with no knowledge whatsoever we should understand the intricacies of therapeutic supplementation? So throughout the last probably three or four years I've tried as much as I can to give people the tools to understand mainstream supplements and the difference between forms of different nutrients. So for example, you have about 13 different types of magnesium. So being told that it's going to help with your headaches and then taking a citrate form, well, citrate's only going to be useful in the digestive system. So all of a sudden you spent between 15 to 30 pounds on something that is doing you good because it's still magnesium, but it has absolutely no interaction with your nervous system and those headaches that are causing you so much discomfort. when that happens, We have mistrust in whether these things actually work, it's not that you just weren't given the full story and through seeing what people needed on social media, in terms of understanding, and then also having clients come to me who are literally taking hundreds of pounds worth of supplements already and going, well, you actually shouldn't be taking those things together because that's not a good idea, or you're taking something that's completely you. Ineffective dose with a load of extra bulking agents in it. I went okay. Well, this is enough how do I make a way for people to optimize their health in a completely self led way? How can I make my brain Available to all for free. So NutriTailor was born and We've partnered with an incredible brand who have been around for the last almost 30 years They're all clinical grade supplements. They were only really directed through practitioners before and I have then created plans Based on health situations, we have our core plans, which are, for children, teenagers, those who are adults. We also have an adult vegan version, and those who are over 40, because throughout our life stages, our basic requirements for certain nutrients will evolve. Like a child needs a totally different form of omega 3 to somebody who's 35, because their brain is developing, whereas ours is just trying to optimize its function. And once we've hit 40, Our bodies are actually starting to become a little bit less effective, so we need additional antioxidants and stomach acid support. So we have our cores, which build your foundations and allow you just to follow through the undulations of the wonders that are life. Then we have our restore plans, which are designed for when you dip. So, whether you have an issue with anxiety and sleep, whether you have a concern related to your hormone balance, are you getting terrible PMS symptoms, are you going through the menopause, and you're finding it really difficult with things like hot flashes, do you have acid reflux, a UTI, our Restore plans heal you. And they're there with dosage instructions, additional lifestyle tips and tricks, so basically what you would get from me if you came and saw me as a client, but you're in charge. You see the indications for use, you decide if it's you, Maybe you are tired. Maybe you do need iron, but read what the indications for use are for the iron support plan versus whether you are just not sleeping effectively or not. Find out what your pattern actually is and then feel confident that what you are then purchasing has nothing synthetic or added into it. It's entirely dosed at a level that is safe, but therapeutically effective and you are then empowered. and in charge of your health. You are the master of your own health. That's what I want. And then for those who are, a little bit more excitable, we have our enhanced plans, for people who are looking for that little extra edge, they feel that they're functional. They want to be optimal. endurance athletes. people who are looking at additional detox support or cognitive enhancement, like focus and concentration. things like seasonal allergies, if you're going to be drinking alcohol, how to avoid a hangover, if you travel a lot. all of the individual supplements also have now been. explained in a way that is easily accessible. Because if I said to you, or I said to Henry when we were first building this, tell me what acetylalcarnitine will do for you. He just went, I don't even know what that is. Is it, is it a flower? he can now tell you that it's amino acid and the form that we've got is brilliantly absorbable in the gut, but that inflammation is there in layman's terms. So everyone's got it and they can make their own decision. my hope. is that this is a way for people to avoid wasting money on things that aren't effective, to actually start to understand what they need at different times, our bodies are entirely different in May than they are in December. So knowing how to self switch and self support, depending on what's going on for you.

Anthea:

how to tailor, which is why the name is so perfect. Exactly. Gosh, it really brings me back to what we started with, which was your ethos. This making available, not just information, but making available information at a price point that people are able to really afford, that has a material practical quality within their life. What an amazing. thing. I hope you're proud of yourself for this. It sounds incredible.

Phoebe:

if it gets to the people that I wanted to get to, fingers crossed, I really hope that it's something that enhances people's lives. there's a naturopathic principle, which is, docere, which is to say, The doctor is the teacher, and there are nine naturopathic principles of which I've forgotten all of the other eight. But that has always been the thing for me, that when I heard it in my first ever lecture, I've always held on to. Those who have knowledge should share it. It is our duty as carers. To take care and that's really what I hope this will do. We'll see

Anthea:

everyone I'm gonna make sure that you have all of the details that you might want for accessing NT When is it officially launching?

Phoebe:

we should be up and running by the end of November Oh, it's so soon. Okay. the other thing that I just want to mention is the other side of Phoebe's business, which is in this more expanded, in some ways more intensive, but very beautiful holistic space around retreats. And so she is the co founder of an organization called The 360, which is a wonderful name. give people a sense of what they could expect from one of your retreats with Terri Ann. So I think that, again, what we've been sort of touching on. Over this whole session is that Terry and I live on opposite sides of the world. Terry is in Canada She is in a different age bracket to me, but we became very friendly through social media and through the pandemic We would walk on treadmills talking to each other on FaceTime and we'd have these Ridiculously long conversations and just came to this realization that we were having the same conversation in different languages Because Terri is an incredibly experienced yoga teacher, she's been teaching yoga for over 25 years. And she is also a wonderful foodie, food photographer, recipe developer. And we'd have these endless conversations about sort of our emotional interaction with what was going on in the world, and where we were feeling this in our bodies, and what we were doing with our food as a result. And we went, my god, you're talking in sort of Ayurvedic principles and chakras, and I'm talking about them in medical physiology. And so what we... decided between us was that we both wanted something on the other side of COVID that was a true passion project to give people the opportunity who maybe wouldn't have had it otherwise to be held and to experience what it feels like when you actually are living in a way. That supports you emotionally, physically, spiritually. So what we, we do on our retreats is we combine, obviously, my knowledge with Terry's yoga. And we give people an opportunity to come away to somewhere beautiful where it's quiet. where nature is there to surround you. We do yoga mostly twice a day. Some days we might do other things like sound baths or cacao ceremonies or something in the evening, but there's always a bookending of the day with some kind of physical movement to reconnect mind and body. We have the most incredible food whilst we're away. I do workshops on how different. Elements of the body are working. And like we were saying, we'd say deducing that cravings aren't a bad thing. We tell ourselves that we should use willpower and we must understand that we should do things in a certain way. In actual fact, craving is your body telling you something is missing. So if you listened to it and understood it, then you can actually resolve the problem. The time that people spend with us is the start of a new chapter. We want them to leave us with tools that now mean that every step after the retreat is different for them and they interact with their life in a different way. We will always keep the retreats small, maximum like 10 to 12 people away because we, as part of the retreats, everyone gets a one to one with both of us. we've got one. to Nicaragua in January, 27th of January to the 3rd of Feb.

Anthea:

it's so wonderful to hear about it. I'm now even more excited than I was to begin with. dear one, I'm gonna allow you to... scamper off with your man and your puppy and hopefully the end of a longish day for you. but I will make sure that everyone has all of the details to get in touch with you either personally or to join into the Nietzsche Taylor scenario. and I'm just so grateful for your time. Thank you for being with us. It's been amazing to have you.

Phoebe:

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Good. Just listeners. Thank you. So. So. much. For your ears. I hope. You enjoy today's. today's. episode. To find. More about our. Featured guests. Have a look in the show. Notes.