Finding Your Way Home; The Secrets to True Alignment

Wimhof Practitioner & Executive Coach Felix Hirschburger; Unleash your potential & embrace the pain

• Anthea Bell

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This week's guest is a true leader in the field of human potential - championing the profound power of mind~body optimisation to unleash an individual and society's unlocked potential.

It was truly special to sit down with Felix Hirschburger; a powerful teacher in my own Coaching practice, along with that of many others. Felix is a celebrated Executive Coach with +10,000 hours guiding Leaders, athletes and businesses in powerful transformation. He is Co-Founder of progressive mind~optimisation training school Psychological Fitness International, his own Business Louma Empowering People, a certified Hypnotherapist and Switzerland's first Wim Hof Instructor.  Alongside aBreathwork Instructor, Ultra-Marathon Runner, Husband and newly, father...

Part-entrepreneur, part spiritual-seeker, Felix combines a deep human-centred ethic with his passion for the neurobiology of Leadership & Change.  His message? That through targeted optimisation of mind and body, anyone can gain access to states of profound freedom, clarity and personal/professional power.  At the centre of these life-changing shifts? Cultivating presence in the most challenging of circumstances. As you'll hear, it's an approach he not only recommends, but personally embraces in every area of his life.

We discuss the difference between "above" and "below the line" thinking / being; why connecting to the present is so critical to every aspect of health and performance; how to use your daily life as your training ground; and what we learn through both ceremony and deliberate exposure to major physical / mental challenge.  If you've ever wondered how to move through pain and discomfort, or why you should - this is your episode.

To find out more about Felix, please visit:

www.hirschburger.ch / www.psychologicalfitness.io 

To learn more about the Podcast, future guests or Embodiment Coaching, reach out at www.ab-embodimentcoaching.org 

And don't forget to rate, review and re-share; your feedback makes all the difference to the release of these incredible stories. 

Enjoy listeners,

Ax

Anthea:

Welcome to Finding Your Way Home, the secrets to true alignment. I'm your host, Anthea Bell, movement teacher, mind body coach, and lifelong spiritual seeker. This is a podcast about the depth, weight, and profound healing power of connection between mind and body, spirit and soul, and from one human to another. Together with an incredible range of inspiring guests, we'll explore just what connection and alignment mean. How to get there in a world full of the temptation to conform, and how great challenge ultimately can lead to life changing transformation. Get ready for groundbreaking personal stories, conversational deep dives, and a toolkit of strategies to build not just your inner knowing, but your outer world. Let's dive in.

Welcome everyone to this week's episode of Finding Your Way Home. I am so delighted to be sharing space with this beaming human today. Those of you watching the video, we have Felix Hirschburger with us, who is quite a profound individual. I'm going to give you a little intro to him, and then I'm going to ask Felix to introduce himself. So Felix has an MA in economics and he's a professional certified coach. I know him because he is the Co-Founder of Psychological Fitness International and also of Louma Empowering People. I'm gonna get Felix to tell us a little bit more about Both of those projects, which take up a sizable amount of his day to day life alongside his family and his new little one, uh, we were just talking about that before we came on air, the joys of flowing with family life and lack of sleep and different emotional pressures while also navigating big projects and, uh, you know, a very full client roster. But for a little more background to him, because he has this fantastic dovetailing of mind and body. He's a breathwork practitioner. He was the first Swiss Wim Hof instructor. We have the photos to prove it, him scaling snow covered mountains with seas of people behind him. And I think that there was face paint somewhere involved in that. Um, he's also a hypnotherapist, which for me is, is a fascinating area of Sort of that somatic mind body connection and really using the power of image and the power of language to support people on whatever processes they're wanting to evolve. So, without further ado, Felix, welcome from me to you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much, Anthea, and it's such a pleasure to be here and to have this conversation with you. And, um, yeah, I'm just so, delighted and humbled by what you're saying. It's, uh, it's amazing. it's probably really right now. What's, um, in the center of my life is since, uh, a bit more than a year. it's our son, Leo. He's so amazing and, um, such a joy to, to be with and to also really spend my time, not only working, but then also really being with him and, and Carla, my wife, and, um, just enjoy this, um, this, this. amazing life, uh, which is there and which is just always present in the moment. Discovering and being curious and, uh, just really sharing this space with him is, is amazing. And, uh, yes, as you mentioned on the professional side, uh, there's also a lot of things going on. I've got my own business with Louma Empowering People and there I, um, do a lot of executive coaching. So I work with leaders, entrepreneurs, with athletes, and, um, what I really enjoy there is. Working together with people who most of them, they realized that they already have, had some success and maybe they had a successful exit with their, company and, and now they have reached all the things they thought this is what they need to be finally happy. And then they realize, Oh, actually there's something more apparently, or the sense that seems, uh, quite a while already. And. Don't know how to get there and what to do and what's the, the path towards this, area. They don't know that well. And um, so I just joined their journey and we, walked away together and, uh, I support them in actually, yeah, getting to know these different. Version of themselves and, um, and this is really, really fascinating, work and I can do, and then also I do corporate work. I do training with teams. on the organizational development side. Sometimes. Leaders think, gosh, what I just learned there needs to be happening in the company or at least in my team And, I work together with, um, friend of mine, a good colleague, business partner, Mark Atkinson. we. Founded, uh, Psychological Fitness international. And, um, so we are there also working on very, fascinating topics, always around. How can I be, acting from presence and not from my ego loaded personality mode. And, and what is fascinating to us is that companies are picking it up. They know that this is the way to go. And so we work with, with companies like Google clouds and other bigger organizations and, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's working really well. So that's. more or less what I do. And, and also, yeah, just love being in nature, doing sports, um, working not only on my mind, but also on my body because I'm really believable. also as you mentioned, it's just, You know, we just need to integrate all those different, um, parts of us. It's wonderful to hear it. It sounds, um, it sounds, and I know this from, from knowing you a little bit that it's a very rich, full and diverse life, but it's woven together with some very consciously chosen and practiced principles. So, you know, you use the word integration quite a lot in describing what you do. And I can, I can feel this dovetailing across your different activities. And the thing that I was really reminded of, and it comes up so much in the Psychological Fitness work that I now practice with clients, is this thing of coming to a place of ease. whatever it is that arises. So just before we started recording, I was sharing a quote that I was taught nine years ago, which is learning the ability to live on life's terms. really to, to live in the flow. And I think one of the sort of mantra that Mark shared very early on in my training was around, as I come to wake up in the morning, and I'd been doing prayer practice for, you know, probably about eight years before this, but. When you wake up in the morning is to really ask the universe what would, what would you have me do today? How can I be in service of what's here? And in none of the training that I've done with you or any of what I've been taught or now teach is an idea that we're negating self investment, self care. But what we are beginning to do is make a very clear, often challenging distinction between my ego mind and the personality constructs that I've been operating under, almost under a cloud of, versus what is the true self and how can the true self self invest and then show up in the world to share the dharma, the, the gift, um, that we've been given. And I wonder if, if you'd be happy to speak to that. Yeah. So wonderfully put there. this is the foundation, the fundamental of the work I'm doing and, and the longer, you know, I, I work on myself and together with my clients and the teams, this is where, where it flows, this is the direction, some will not want to, to go that road and then it's fine too, because it's, It's not about self optimization, it's not about, you know, kind of striving to become better and all that. It's, it's really, as you mentioned, um, you know, having this intention in mind, and I'm willing to be liberated by life. Um, by whatever is there, I'm willing to be liberated. And also one of one of, uh, kind of a mantra that is, um, important to me since a while is, um, life is the ceremony. I really think it's so important and, uh, useful to, to go on retreat to do, you know, special exercises and meditation retreats or, or to work with, uh, plant medicine and substances or whatever it is. And usually people call those moments and those special situations. And this is the ceremony and I fully believe, I mean, yes, it is. But actually what really is the ceremony is, um, is our everyday life. So whatever comes up, um, that's, uh, that's a teaching moment, that's a teacher. And especially in those moments, I mean, it's nice, it's beautiful. I love when it flows and when, you know, I'm just, uh, you know, I slept a lot and I'm well fed. And, It's just enjoying the sun outside, whatever it is, and beautiful and just enjoy and dive in. But at the same time, in those really tough, uncomfortable, difficult moments, um, yeah, I more and more start to, to even all of them. Yeah. Appreciate those and, and know that these are so, so fundamentally important. There's, um, there's something you've reminded me of, which is a, that you mentioned, uh, and we know this about you, that part of your client base, these wonderful people that you support, they are athletes. And I know that you yourself have pushed your body, uh, really to, to test your physical edges and to learn, it seems, how significant mindset and energetic state are, to, Allowing your body to continue in really challenging environments. So obviously the, the Wim Hof, practice but also you did a marathon. Uh, but I believe quite a lot of that involved nighttime running actually from the memory of you with a little torch on your head. And I also work with athletes and they are passionate about the importance because they live it on a day to day basis, passionate about the importance of how to get yourself optimal, which is a word you use quite often when you're in that environment and, and of course, doing that creates more and more resiliency and it expands this amazing bandwidth that people have. I was watching your Ted talk yesterday, which I'll make sure everyone that I link in the show notes and. Felix is talking to a huge stage of a huge crowd of people about this, uh, this concept that when we think we're done, when we think we're at our edge, 40%, 40 percent potentiality. And as you keep pushing the boundaries with compassion, then the edges grow bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And ironically, you also come back to yourself. More and more and more. Tell us about your physicality and, and what you've learned from practicing it and teaching it. Oh, yeah, you, you put it again. So, so, so well and, uh, and very much pointing to the essence. So you, you, you talked about mindset, but then also the mind state. And I really believe both, both is really important and the state even more important because it's kind of. The fundament there again. So for example, I mean, there are different, um, ways I again and again, uh, really deliberately want to get, um, exposure in, in those kind of extreme situations, because I, you know, I cannot just talk to my clients and tell them about when they're in those. State in the moment, uh, what, what is going on and I really need to, to know it by myself and, and practice with it, um, again and again. So yeah, two years ago I finished, um, the Eiger Ultra Trail which is like 101 K and, uh, 6, 700. meter, um, altitude difference. So it's kind of, and I never ever have done something like that before. I mean, I was running around our lake here, the lake of Zurich, which was a long, long distance as well, but you know, it wasn't like the, the altitude difference, um, So the up and down running all the time and, um, and, you know, like before a couple of months beforehand, because there was Corona, they had to, uh, postpone it again and again. And I didn't think that I'm ready to do it. And, uh, and I was also in a, in a difficult moment in my, in my life. There was a lot of things on the business side going then. Kind of, um, personality stuff got triggered on the inside, uh, through someone and my mother fell into a major depression and This triggered other elements with me, within me as well. And so I didn't train, it was really difficult, but then all of a sudden, kind of some, some, um, things fall, fell into place and, and I thought, okay, maybe, maybe I can do it. And so I started to train and, um, and it just felt really good when I started and I knew I don't want to push the limits Obviously, I will reach the borders of my, the edges of my comfort zone again and again throughout this whole race, but I don't want to push them. I don't want, you know, like with force and, and I've seen all those people running beside me. So many just having a really bad mood and just being very hard on themselves and pushing and fighting. And whenever I reached, you know, kind of this limit. I, I always relaxed my nervous system. So I softened my gaze, tune into it in a smile. I counted down from five, four, three, two, one, being in my lower belly, you know that very well. Um, and I just, you know, from being above the line again, from being in aware presence again. Um, I just ask myself, so what do I need now? You know, what, what's, what, what does the situation or what do I, do I need right now? And sometimes it's just really start to love because I realized, Oh, I haven't eaten for an hour or so, or just need to drink some water or let's walk for five minutes, whatever it is. It's, you know, very simple things. They were just coming up, but it could never have accessed them from the state of, gosh, it's too much. I've got already a decay behind me. It's getting dark and cold and my stomach is bad. And you know, like. And then you could go into, gosh, what the hell am I doing here? Um, do I need to prove something to, to whom, what, what's going on here? Let's, let's stop this. And, um, so, I mean, in this state, mind state or state of your nervous system, nothing intelligent will come up, but when you're really tuned to the inside. Relax your nervous system, welcome whatever is going on on the inside there. And this is really, I think this is the fundamental, base of, psychological fit fitness as well. Always welcoming, not what's on the outside, but what's on the inside. So this. Sensations and emotions, which are difficult and, yeah, hard to be with, um, just, you know, can I open to, to that? Can I be with it and can I allow it to be there and, and really listen? What do I need now? And, um, and then it's like a second. energy, you know, um, battery or reservoir or whatever, which gets, access and, um, and you just continue. when I was the finish line 23 and a half hours later, I felt really good. And, um, it was like, after a couple of hours. sleeping. Um, I got up and, um, I was even driving the car back home and we had a family celebration and I was really okay just because of that, because I As you said, compassionately, uh, treated myself throughout the race and, um, so I guess this is it. And the same happens when I go, do some ice baths or whatever it is. And it can be also during a relationship crisis or when you're dealing with difficult situation with your son or whatever is going on. It's always the same and the physicality is so. Good because it really teaches you, you know, you cannot just, check out while being in the ice cold world. It's just there, you're just kind of, um, yeah. You have to deal with it in the moment. So it's, it, it's a great, great teacher and just, um, a proxy for whatever difficult and uncomfortable stuff is going on throughout the life and stress and whatever it is. So. So that's why I think it's really worthwhile practicing with, with that. It's a beautiful story, the racing, because. The thing you have reminded me of is this giving back of agency. You know, I, I don't find it surprising that the name of your enterprise is Louma Empowering People and agency empowerment are what we receive when we regularly check in, not with the thinking mind, which Mark references as the cave. I was always taught that as the washing machine brain where the thoughts are going around and around and around. And often there are many conversations at the same time and they disagree with each other. And what I see when, when we see tension in the physical studio or when I see tension in coaching clients is that they are, as you described, desperately right up in here in the front of their head, trying to solve that discord. And in a sense, we imagine when we're doing that, that we're dealing with the problem. We're not actually dealing with the problem, we're hearing a lot of fog. And my experience has been that in hearing the fog, even if you believe that you're dealing with the problem or believe that you're feeling your feelings, you're actually not. In and immersed within the felt sense, even the felt emotional sense. And it wasn't until I began to drop with curiosity into deep emotional states, and for me the most difficult ones were anger and shame. Shame, shame, I had, I mean, I have far more than my fair share of shame as a, as a trait. Um, and I, really diminished anger for a long time. And it was only when I started to feel into them, not the story. This is a wonderful takeaway from the training with you is, is the idea of no story. So I'm just, and I'm not even saying no story with judgment, but just for a minute, let's put it aside the story and let's drop into the feeling. And when I do that, What happens is I give myself back the opportunity to decide from resonance and from integration, where do I need to go, like you said, and I'm picturing almost asking your own permission at every moment in that race. Does my system, my whole body system, which is what we talk about in Pilates, does my whole body system say yes? And then the next time, does it say yes? And how can I work with that? And so of course, by the end of it, you haven't battled yourself to get there and brutalized your body in the process and brutalized your mind in the process. You've just continued to show up again and again and again to what's here. I imagine when you teach people that, especially if it's the first time and they're high achievers or they're ultra achievers from an athletic perspective, that that's a profound teaching that they can get just as much of what they want, but with a totally different gateway in, no effort. Absolutely. I think this is, um, I mean, this is the big realization and not. Everyone will get it or wants to get it or it's because it's so deeply ingrained in, in, in our society, you know, like if something doesn't work, just do it a bit more intensively, work harder, work longer, um, you know, kind of train hard, be tough. And, and, um, yeah, and there is not a way there really is. And, and as you said, I really believe it's so, so connected to, to our whole system, to our body, to sensing whatever is going on inside at this very moment, sensing our breath. I think the breath is just. Fantastic for this. It's amazing for that. Um, and, and just kind of really leaving the story, which is mostly at this time, just nurtured by program conditioning from our childhood and adolescence, which made sense at that time, kind of, you know, you get overdose difficult moments and, um, challenging. Uh, part of our life, and now it's, it's really about, becoming adults, you know, and, and you said that it's about agency, it's about, about empowering yourself, um, and this goes through dropping right through the story into the felt sense of whatever is there, being with that. And, and really widening the bandwidth of allowable emotions, you know, not saying that this is shame or anger or whatever it is. It shouldn't be there because it is there for some good reasons it's there. And um, so what can I do with it? What can I, you know, really closely listening to it, being with it. Um, not take being taken by it and, um, but, but really consciously being with it. Um, and, and then always. Always, there will be some door going up, opening up and, um, and usually not the ones we, we thought would, you know, it's usually, it's very surprising and usually it's very elegant and very effective and, um, and very effortless, like you mentioned. And this is like. Where also those, you know, kind of high achievers and executives, they got really curious and they always thought it's so complex, but hey, it's to the contrary. So you also know about, for example, this, um, the clarity method. So that's a coaching tool. We um, we teach to, to, to coaching students, but then also we work, uh, with that, um, And it just, as he said, you know, you, you go from, from the cave, from, from those, you know, conditioned, uh, thoughts and, and you start there. So what do you want? And people just give you a huge story about whatever it is they want and the problem around it and so on. So it's usually quite complex. Then we soften the nervous system by softening the gaze, tuning into a smile, softening the tongue and getting to the center of the head. A lot of clarity comes up when you ask them from there, what, what do you want? And, um, and then we go one step further down to the center of the chest at our heart area. And usually what comes up from there, when you ask them, what do you really want? Usually it's just one word or two names, just. Love, peace, freedom, empowerment, whatever it is, it's so simple. And at the same time, um, very intense. And you can, they can really feel it. They can expand that. They can really dive into it. And from there you go to your lower belly and access, um, what needs to be done from here. And, you know, kind of. It's very clear, sometimes nothing needs to be done and sometimes it's just, okay, I just know I need to get as soon as possible, get a meeting with this person and, um, talk about this and clarify that because then it's all good. So this is really what, what most of them are getting after a while. Oh wow. When I'm present, when I'm relaxed. When I'm above the line, as we call it, um, beautiful things happen and also very, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm really in a, in a high performance state, but from a completely different source. There's a level of human generosity that I notice when that change has occurred, where strategic thinking hasn't negated the degree to which we are human beings living, to whatever degree a shared experience, whether that's in the working place or whether that's in the world at large. Um, and when you tune into the different parts of your body. When you drop into them, they each have different qualities, different resonances, and also those will be individual for each person practicing. So you can amplify, you know, when you come down and rest in the heart. not every day, but some of the days, a good proportion of the days that you do that, you'll feel the warmth and the care and the love here. And some days when you do that, you're greeting tenderness and vulnerability and wounding that needs to be released. that's very different from being in the middle of the skull and seeing outwards at which point time often stop. And there is this feeling of, Oh, there is. distance, there is spaciousness between my eyes and the screen or the people that I'm in front of. But when the whole system is, is online, then actually this integrative piece creates a beautiful level of humanity plus wisdom. What makes me smile so often is I came to, I came to your table maybe three years ago or so, and I had been practicing meditation and exploring different spiritual philosophies for, yeah, about nine or ten years before that. I haven't asked you yet, but I'd love for you to tell us about your gateway into this world, because you've obviously been practicing for a long time before even Louma and Psychological Fitness. But what really struck me was. how clever and scientifically supported all of the work that you and we were doing, and yet how similar the outcome was to a deeply committed spiritual practice. And I'm curious as to whether that emerged because that was naturally how you've evolved can you tell us a little bit more about that? So I mean, I was, I was already kind of a seeker and explorer since, um, since I was quite young. probably started in, as it has for many in the adolescence, you know, reading those books. And, uh, and then I, I started, um, probably first meditation retreat that was in, in Burma, Myanmar at the time, um, when I was like 21, something like that. So, and I really got into that and realized, oh, okay, a lot like in Switzerland where I'm living there, there are also retreat centers, I don't have to go there, there's much here already and, and so I, I got into, um, kind of, yeah, the practice and, and mainly Buddhism, um, from, from quite a young age and, it, it stayed until, uh, until today and, and. In parallel, as I, as you mentioned, I studied economics, but I always wanted to really get in touch with, with the human beings within the organization. So I already there, um, got in touch with, with someone who trained coaches and I did my traineeship there. And so I always kind of, Was was looking for. Where can I grow? What can I? What can I learn? Where can I dive in? And also mostly like like it is probably for most of us because it's a lot of fun. Something was lacking because, you know, it was never, you know, it was never a good, I was never good enough for, um, my confidence wasn't there or whatever, you know, like, um, yeah, life is Duhkha painful stuff. So, and I also knew that I have, and all of us, we have this, this potential on the inside. And everything's already there. So, so let me find this and, and then, um, it was like, yeah, maybe six, seven years ago when I, when I first met Mark so I knew something what I'm seeing in him, the way he's working with people, and this was a life. A live, uh, workshop. Ah, okay. I know, I know this, but I haven't seen it so clearly. And so maybe also, as you mentioned, um, you know, it was scientifically okay. There was like clear practices, it was accessible, um, there was a method behind it. And still the essence was. Something I experienced when, for example, when I met Eckhart Tolle and I just dived into this space, you know, like you meet him and, oh, okay, there it is. And it was like coming from the same place. So from there on, the work I'm doing and the coaching and the training and all that start to shift. Into this direction, because I realized, I mean, coaching practices, that's fantastic. You know, working with systemic solution focused approaches or with other coaching methodologies. That's great. And it doesn't really include, this step we are, we are now, talking about and. Because the question is always from where are you using your functional mind and functional mind, meaning having all these intelligent, powerful questions and from where are you listening? Are you listening from your personality system? Um, or are you listening from presence? And. It has an amazing, um, effect when you're doing that, you know, when I work with, or when, when we train, um, um, people to, to be coaches or just leaders, you know, having their discussion with their, with the staff, when it just can tune into this, and you mentioned it before, for example, the area of their, their heart. And listen from there or listening from there to the child, they don't need to do anything else. It's, it's so much, it's, it's just done by this because we don't need to fix them. We don't need to tell them anything. It's everything is already there. Everything. Um, all those talents, all those qualities. They're just shining in, in that very moment and, so yes, and then, I mean, like all of us, I had, I had, um, different crisis in my life and, and also there I realized all those tools and techniques I learned and I'm teaching to others. And it's working for them, it's not working for me right now, nothing, you know, you know, it's just like, what can I do, what, and there's nothing you can do. And um, and then it's just really this, this very humbling, deep, deep teaching of, um, of just, you know, surrendering, letting go, allowing whatever is to be exactly as it is. And it's not about. Getting better, feeling better and, um, and really letting yourself, giving yourself over to this bigger, whatever it is, and, um, and just trust, trust into this, this process. And I think this is, um, this is what happened in the last years. And then like two, three years ago, I had two very important, um, retreats, both of them were very, very much. around the experience and getting very, very deeply into, into breath. And so since then, uh, breath became much more important to me and, uh, yeah, so, and so I'm, I'm surfing, uh, the waves of the current. situation and the life and, and it's, it's just fascinating. And it's also, it's never, ever ending. It's, I really believe that it's just, um, it goes on and on. Yeah. It never ends. But the thing that you've referenced is How challenging it can be for self developers to acquiesce to the moments where everything in your system and often your outside manifest life is creating a feeling of uncertainty, lack of stability, and ultimately that that transition. So when you were describing that phase of your life, you obviously know this because you've been supporting me with mine. Um, you recommended a book to me. And I believe that the title is, uh, Midlife Crisis as a Spiritual Experience. And again, everyone, I'll make sure that that's in the show notes. It's actually a really wonderful book. Part of why it was so wonderful, and I was so grateful to you for recommending it, is I noticed in myself, as you were describing, that desire to Fix it, make it better, learn whatever I need to learn because my tendency is usually, okay, well, I'm, I'm in the wrong or I'm the one that needs to change. So I've always understood that sense of agency that I'm not other people or my externals to change. And yet actually softening into what is when everything is telling you that there's nothing really that you can do that takes a new level of both surrenders as you describe it, but also of trust, faith. Patience, and those aren't traits that we're actively taught within a successful professional business context, or even within a family environment. So this tendency that there is to apply strategy and control, even when everything indicates that that's not the time, that's very destabilizing. What was so useful was hearing your experience on that. And the book emphasized that this is a phase that a lot of people go through. whether it's in their 30s, 40s, 50s, there will come a point where the way that you have been living, the way that you've been seeing yourself, the way you've been aiming to control the world, and your environment, that no longer works. And you have to release to allow yourself to become the fullness of what you're being encouraged to become. And you will not know how that works as a blueprint or a forward future telling map for a while, you know, a year, two years, and you've got to go with the flow the whole time. And we're very good at going with the flow in a yoga class or on retreat, but doing it for a protracted period of time in our life is It's often for people terrifying. So I suppose I just share that to really thank you for sharing your experience with the audience because it's clearly evolved you in a profound way. Given everything that you're doing now, given your baby, given your marriage, given what's coming up for you with Psychological Fitness and Louma, you know, that dark period was integral to the, the flourishing that you're experiencing now, It's the essence of, um, of the wellbeing that I'm experiencing right now and, and also the, the, the effortless, it's, way I can do my work. And also, you know, there's nothing to worry. I mean, in those moments and months, and as you mentioned it, it took, it took quite a moment, like, uh, I don't know, maybe one and a half years, it was really intense. And so some people refer to The"dark night of the soul" and however you want to call it, um, in the book you mentioned, it's like, uh, I think the, the phase really down under, you know, where it's really very dark and dark and difficult and, and uncertain. And you don't know when it's going to change, but then at one moment, you know, just knowing that. Oh, actually, there are many people who already went through that. And I'm sure all the, you know, the people you call spiritual teachers every one of them went through it. There is this moment, as you mentioned, when those program conditionings, they no longer work, they were helpful, supportive. In order to, even to, to become very successful, whatever it is, but then the sense actually, no, it no longer works. there would have been much earlier signs, but, um, then you don't listen to them because. It all is good, still earning a lot of money or whatever it is. And then, um, and then maybe it comes as a, as an illness, as a job loss, as a relationship breakup, as something else is happening. And it's quite, quite threatening to this whole system, very threatening to this whole system that made us. up to this point, even so successful or not, and then most of the people choose to just, you know,, numb themselves with alcohol or with another substance or with more work or with a young, new, girlfriend or with a nice car or whatever it is to not. Having to face that and to feel that and to go into that and, and often really helps to have someone alongside. That knows how it feels and that there is, you know, another side and there is some light at the end of the tunnel to that. Um, and maybe also those, as I mentioned, those books, which, which kind of show the way and that there is, there are different steps involved. And then after this dark phase, there is. He's calling it, um, there's this spirit door opening up, something that kind of shows you, Oh, this could be the new way, very to the core of who you really are connected to your soul, however you want to, you want to call it and, and from there, um, you're, you're making your way up and, and start to integrate that and start to integrate all those, uh, shadow sides of your personality into your system and, and, and start to live. Um, from a different place. And as you mentioned, I think from there, from there, you're really, really, you can be really helpful to, to someone else. Um, if you don't fall into the trap of a spiritual ego stay humble, stay, um, close to whatever is going on and, um, with a good heart and, and with good ethics and then you're fine, I guess. They're the bread and butter, those two values, humility and, ethicality. And they're also, there's something there about the, the feeling of being grounded in A sense of, of who you are in a sense of sort of more broadly what's important in life. If there are sort of two things that I'm picking up from what you were describing, it's this radical surrender and then when you do come back into life, let's say, or for anyone that's going through this, there's something about noticing when you're chasing. That for me became a really big hallmark, the feeling of chasing or numbing those two strategies, I suddenly became very aware of them and how related they were to me as a very little one. And in, in. In letting go of the chasing, it reminds me of your Buddhist lineage, because there is this concept in Buddhism, of dropping back, and what I've tended to find both in my life and with, with it. the people that I work with, is when you can drop back and you can release the want, not ignore it, but let it release itself and move outwards through your body, which it does in its own beautiful way, then things do come. And that's of course what people talk about with manifestation, but a lot of the time manifestation as a label comes with so much of the grasping that people are reinforcing the story that they can't have what they think they want. And they're probably not going through that process that you were describing of, okay, what do I want for my head? And then what do I want in my heart? And then, okay, as I come down into the resounding base of my belly, what's clear from here? And what would I need to do? Because it's not just the, the desire, let's say in life, but it's also what, what's then the action that you take? We have to have both. They used to tell me, you know, God meets you halfway. God meets you halfway, but you gotta, you gotta go the half. And then that's where you let go of the expectation and the outcomes. And when that happens, magical, surprising things come into your life that expand you. Um, that you wouldn't have been able to predict, and thank goodness, you can't predict them because there's so much more, and so different from what you could have anticipated in your mind that always seeks out what it already knows. You know, we've done that over there. So what's it like to move out into this unknown space and let ourselves receive it as a teacher, as a ceremony? would you be happy to tell us about what's coming up for you in that respect? the surprises on the horizon, what you're working on, what you're expanding into. Oh, gosh. There would be so much to say about what you just shared. I think that you put this so, so beautifully. And, um, I mean, one thing I picked up it's, um, yeah, you have to, to go to halfway. So what you can do is having, you know, good intentions, having intention. So, as I mentioned, I'm willing to be liberated by life. By whatever is going in on here, um, I'm willing to respond openly, freely, and fully to everything, not only to the nice, beautiful stuff, and also to, to what is difficult. And I'm willing to see, sense, smile into that, soften into that, dive into that in the moment. So not only in the big crisis and, you know, the, those. Horrendous times in someone's life, but also in everyday tiny stuff that is going on, you know, just gosh, the window here of my program, computer takes so long to open up what's going on, you know, you can. It's a contraction. Can I soften into that? Can I use this as a gateway to relax into it? Can I tune back into my breath? Can I soften my system? I mean, the tiniest Things throughout life. I think this is, this is what really, really counts. Um, besides when, when life, you know, throws at you all those difficult stuff, um, very intensively. Um, and then the other part you mentioned, you know, like, yeah, um, this grasping of our mind. And, and usually when we don't watch closely, we think, okay, I want something. I want this. This third piece of chocolate or whatever it is, then when I have it, it feels like I got it. And so it feels good. But what really, when you look closely, it's, it's the kind of the seizing of the grasping and the wanting that feels good., when we practice that, just. Observing when there is wanting there, when it's grasping there, just being with it and, and, and seeing, you know, curiously what's going on exactly. And when kind of presence is there, you just realize it's seizing, it's going away. And, and it feels so good. It feels really very natural and flowing and., You don't need to love it and welcome it. Maybe that's not possible, but just allow it to be there and being curious with it. And, um. And the result of both is, um, is equanimity, you know, it's like, um, having, as we mentioned in the beginning, this, this bandwidth of allowable emotions and, um, and states, um, it's just held in a bigger pot or in a bigger lake or see, it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and the borders are further away from you. So it gives you more space and more freedom and more, um, yeah, just natural joy to live, to live, to live your life. And you're describing there, it gives you also a feeling of safety. Because you mentioned the nervous system before, and how when we soften the eyes and soften the tongue, that actually signals to our internal environment, okay, you are actually, you're okay here. And so much of the time with craving, because that's an area that I've looked into a lot and worked with people on a lot, is that the craving is really my base need to feel safe. And especially with food or with alcohol, we learn that very young, that feeling of instability, that feeling of lack of safety. And when you were describing, Oh, I think if I have the piece of chocolate and then I have the piece of chocolate and, and I'm really satisfying the craving. Yeah. And you're telling your body for a moment here for a little tiny moment, I'm safe. And from the biological perspective, the dopamine rebalancing that's happening there in terms of your neurotransmitters, that's great, but what we know in terms of those signals They actually become harder and harder to find the more that you repeat the behavior and the more intense the behavior becomes so of course people are grasping them increasingly for safety and they can't get it through the mean that they Believe that they can use to achieve that and as soon as you come into the being and you find the softening You find the compassion certainly that was my experience that I felt calm suddenly and I was able to allow my wants You know, I can live the whole rich life cycle of the pleasure of the want in just allowing it, don't need the chocolate. I still love chocolate, but it's not attached to my being in the way that it certainly was for a period of time when I did not have the tools to know how to navigate or even sense when I felt unsafe and for a lot of the people that I see. I imagine this is also the case for a lot of your clients. They actually feel biologically and psychologically unsafe. Quite a lot of the time, but might not be aware of that because the management system has come so online to defend them against that feeling. Absolutely. Yeah, so true. I see that again and again, and I've seen it in myself, um, for so many, many years. And, um, I mean, it's beautiful when you, when you just experience what you just shared with, you know, that you could have the chocolate, but you don't need to have it because, you know, um, yeah, it's not this, this, this, this grasping. It's not that this is then actually what makes you feel safe or at ease or whatever it is. I asked you and we cheekily got digressed about projects. What is coming up? Yeah. I mean, there, there are always many projects, So one, one thing is that we want to move, um, from Psychological Fitness into, into what we call, uh, Optimal Mind. what we have integrated there is our different elements like presence. attention, working on the mind state, working on the health, not only physical, but also emotional, cognitive and, mindset, flow, integration, you know, like different areas of, of our system that needs to be there and needs to be integrate in order to, to have something what we want to call the Optimal Mind. So we'd like to, to really spread that, very broadly, um, into the world because. There is so much so much potential to, to just, um, to live life optimally And then, um, we would also love to work with, with people again, physically, in person, one on one, in a group. Uh, I think there is even more magic going on than, uh, via, Learning platforms and zoom calls, and then, building on my, executive coaching work, just really diving into working with, with individuals who want to cross over to this. We call it the third island, where it's no longer, optimizing your life, but it's really living from a completely different, foundation. And as you said, it's more than like, okay, life, what do you want to have, have me to do? you know, like a couple of years ago, I always had like my vision board and dreams and goals and, and, um, I'm really trusting that when I'm, you know, operating from, from presence. It's more often than not that, um, life will just develop and flow, um, perfectly fine. So sometimes it's really even hard to think about the concrete goals and visions and projects. The good thing about it is when it comes then not as planned or when something doesn't work, it's okay. The idea is like this or something better, If not this, then something better, It's a really peaceful mantra. And I suppose as something just to end on, you really have me thinking about how this approach that you take and that you've, you and Mark have woven into Psychological Fitness and now Optimal Mind and even in this, this beautiful idea of connecting with people in person, I agree with you, that is so profound, that the energetics of that alone are just phenomenal, and they I agree. they encode for people, you know, people carry those experiences for a long time afterwards. Um, but that in all of this, there is a trusting of life and That as a switch in philosophy, even if that was all that one took from our conversation and there's so much more, but even if that was all that one took, leaning into trusting this vast universe that existed before you and of which you are a beautiful, unique, integral part, that's enormous as a way of feeling relief, excitement, energy, uh, drive. all of those states that people are looking to create. Felix, thank you so much for spending your morning with me. It's been wonderful. I wonder if you would indulge us, is there anything that you'd like to leave the listeners with any final words or message that you'd like to impart? Um, yeah, just thank you so much. I just learned. Uh, incredibly much throughout the whole discussion with you. It's, it's amazing the way, how you, you know, describe your reality, your phrase, your questions, um, with all the wisdom and intelligence. Um, which is integrated there and it's, so that's, that's wonderful. And what I just really, yeah, realize again in each and every conversation, if you're open, if you're there, if you're present, if you're willing to just listen and, and, and let it all in, um, you can learn so much and you can grow so much. So, um, yeah, hopefully that, that happens, um, to all of us and, um, just very grateful to have the chance to, to talk to you. Thank you so much. I'm sure it will be one of many. I wish you the most beautiful day and listeners. We will speak to you soon. Keep well.

Anthea:

good. Just listeners. Thank you. So. So. much. For your ears. I hope. You enjoy today's. today's. episode. To find. More about our. Featured guests. Have a look in the show. Notes.