Finding Your Way Home; The Secrets to True Alignment

Integral Master Coach Jenni Tipper - Love as the catalyst for change. How to 10x your coaching through compassionate presence.

• Anthea Bell

Share episode

Love as the Catalyst for Change...

As practitioners, how do we grow to understand ourselves and others more deeply? Learn to shift: from identified self to expansive, detached, mindful and embodied presence? Tune in more consistently to the signals & wisdom of our bodies as practitioners? And truly, how do we guide / teach / coach others from a place of deepest love - knowing that it is ONLY in the presence of loving connection that another human can transform. All this and so much more from one of the most profound conversations I’ve ever had. 

On this week’s episode of Finding Your Way Home, we had the gift of sitting down with Canada’s Jenni Tipper; Master Coach & Educator for acclaimed Coaching School Integral Coaching Canada, and an expert on leading others with head, heart and embodied presence. Jenni is a stunning speaker on the topics of relational dynamic, change-creation, spirituality and faith. She joins us to offer an insider’s lens on Integral Theory, and the nuanced journey of working with others. This is a must for anyone working in the relational field, looking to support their clients in a deeper, more sophisticated, outcome-driven way. 

In our episode we cover - 

  • Integral Theory; the framework behind the ICC methodology - and why it’s globally-reputed
  • Transformational Coaching, using the Integral lens
  • How to look at and as your client
  • The power of metaphor to guide a persons growth
  • How and why to consciously incorporate body-work into your own practice as teacher / student
  • The power of embracing age, and the wisdom of one’s “crone” years 
  • Why love is the only universally-healing force there is - in whichever form it takes, through the unique human that expresses it

For More on Jenni & ICC

Instagram: @integralcoachingcanada
Website: https://www.integralcoachingcanada.com/  

Stay Connected with the Podcast

To stay up to date with upcoming episodes and guest insights, follow me on Instagram at @ab_embodiment or visit our website.

And to explore working together more deeply -

Sending love and light to wherever this finds you dear ones,

A x


to make any assumption that I know what an outcome might be for a client is simply to not understand reality, uh, and that all I can ever do is, bring my full, awareness. I. Because I want to say, like, my full self, but there's so much involved in that self. What is my body telling me, what am I feeling, what do I cognitively know to be true, um, or at least somewhat objectively true, what am I feeling around and in the space between, there's so much arising in that., it can be so tempting, to want to say, well, it really is just about the coach's presence, that is the alchemical catalyst. And that is true. And it's not just me in my presence that is informing the relational field, it is equally the client's presence. Maybe our greatest gift as coaches is modeling what deep presence can look like. Welcome to Finding Your Way Home, the secrets to true alignment. I'm your host, Anthea Bell, movement teacher, mind body coach, and lifelong spiritual seeker. This is a podcast about the depth, weight, and profound healing power of connection between mind and body, spirit and soul, and from one human to another. Together with an incredible range of inspiring guests, we'll explore just what connection and alignment mean. How to get there in a world full of the temptation to conform, and how great challenge ultimately can lead to life changing transformation. Get ready for groundbreaking personal stories, conversational deep dives, and a toolkit of strategies to build not just your inner knowing, but your outer world. Let's dive in. Welcome gorgeous listeners to this week's episode of finding your way home. Oh, I'm sitting with Jenny Tipper. A better opportunity for a Friday afternoon there could not be. Jenny is the most wonderful, integral coach. She's a master coach. She's a faculty member of integral coaching Canada. She is A spiritually explorative human being, as ever I have known one, and by this stage for me she's become a very dear presence in my own unfolding journey. And before we started the recording today we were having a little chinwag, as you do with your mentors, and she reflected on the fact that for her much of her experience, as she looks back, could be described as an unconscious unfolding. And the question that dangled between us which landed for me on very welcome ears was whether the truth is that we surrender and let go and life then lives through us. On that note, Jenny, darling one, I wonder if you'd unmute yourself and say hello to the listeners. Hello listeners. Oh, I've got goosebumps. The way you captured, um, the surrender. Oh, I know I can't remember the exact words that you use, but what a gorgeous, like I literally felt my body relax. Feels like a deep truth as we surrender and allow and let in that which we are able, prepared and ready to receive meets us in the most amazing ways. Yeah. And that that's the work, and how hard that is, moment to moment, to, uh, put down the longing to know, to construct, to, um, shine light onto the unknown, so that we might, it is perhaps an illusion, but so that we might feel we know where we are. Something about the safety to land in an inclusive space that. Is the mystery that is the magic that is the serendipity that is the all holding all embracing taste of a wider world. Yeah. And like, as you're saying that I feel the inherent both end that, uh, I cultivating the ability to be present moment to moment in that unknown connected. I almost can't even imagine all that is actually around us. It's, it's, it's hard for me to put words to. So that's the truth of, of reality. And we put our shoes on every morning. And we walk out the door and we feed ourselves. And we, we are deeply engaged with other humans. So there's, uh, maybe that's the, the balance that for me very personally, I'm endeavoring to greet. in this moment of the both end of this vastness that is the source of what I get access to, what you get access to, what arises between us. And there's, there's a voice in me that says, but don't spend all your time there, Jenny. There's, there's a human experience that needs tending at the same time. And so, I'm literally like, I'm trying to create space in my body here. It's like, it calls on something even more open and broader to be able to, is the word manifest, maybe, um, bring my full self, bring our full selves forward in the context of that. What could be a tension? I think sometimes it is a deep tension. Uh, but the truth of the both end. of the vastness and then the very concrete agency that we bring. For me that is so beautifully summarized by the symbolism of the body. In that we are given this physical vessel, grounding, if we choose to use our body in that way, and we're also given the capacity to dream and connect and expand consciousness beyond the walls of this flesh. And so we live in that duality all the time. And. The challenge seems to come for people and the suffering seems to come for people when they operate either in that lofty realm or in a deeply embodied realm or question mark the space in between which is the frontal thinking mind. Entrapped in story, entrapped in small identity, entrapped in ego, and I'm smiling that we're having this conversation because obviously both you and I work in this space of change creation. Right. So we actively embrace the capacity that any one human being has to evolve and transform, and I wonder if what we're referencing is to place a gentle question mark on the idea that you're doing all of it. And whether actually it's more of a being done with almost that the process is the doing. You are the receiving vessel. Wow. I mean, if I place the conversation in the context of coaching, to make any assumption that I know what an outcome might be for a client is simply to not understand reality, uh, and that all I can ever do is, um, bring my full, awareness. I. Because I want to say, like, my full self, but there's so much involved in that self. There's what is my body telling me, what am I feeling, what do I cognitively know to be true, um, or at least somewhat objectively true, what am I feeling around and in the space between, there's so much arising in that., as I'm saying this, I think what I'm concluding is, it can be so tempting, or it can be tempting for me to want to say, well, it really is just about the coach's presence, that is the alchemical catalyst. And that is true. And as I look out my window and see the beautiful world around me, I also know that, um, there's a deep wisdom from the land. That needs to or can inform what's arising in the moment and there's the deep wisdom of my own body so it's not just me in my presence that is informing the relational field, and then what becomes possible and aware, it is equally the client's presence. There's some great and maybe grave potential that arises. So maybe, Anthea, maybe, maybe our greatest gift as coaches is modeling what deep presence can look like. If I was to reflect back to you, the experience I had when you were my coach, I had never encountered a teacher that so effectively held the space and the nervousness and the need for structure, and yet the imperative of there being some flex for each and every individual. I'd never encountered someone that was able to do all of that from a loving heart. That was palpable for all of us in that class. Every single one. And I say that because several of us came in with other coaching credentials and big lofty corporate careers, and it would be so easy to stay separate in that sort of a learning environment if the person that is facilitating it is not. It's offering you an opening to come in. And as I say that I'm struck by the fact that this podcast is called finding your way home, and that in small and big ways, something that perhaps unites you and I is finding our way home, and that in small and big ways, something that perhaps unites you and I is The recognition of the importance of offering people belonging, that's truthful belonging, not conditioned or a codependent or, any other way that's fabricated, but a very gentle sense of this space is here, it's loving if you'd like to land for a time, please come and join us. We're all the same. Just going to say, I like that notion of belonging arises from a sense of being compassionately seen. I think it likely means some people maybe feel belonging in very judgmental communities. But I think there's a real opening that becomes available when the space is, I don't want to say safe because safety is such a different thing for each person. But to provide a welcoming space that just says, be you in all the messiness of what it means to be human, uh, maybe. Maybe that's a key ingredient to belonging I've never really thought about. Does it strike you that there's a difference for people in belonging with others and coming to belong with, to themselves, with, to their bodies? What's been your experience of that? Wow. It's hard for me to, to think about that beyond my own, uh, experience. Like I literally am just asking myself, do I think I belong to my body? I occupy my body. I'm in my body. The bod, my body's the medium of my experience. Oh, wow. That, that almost feels like a bit of a challenge that I need to, uh, I need to really think about my deep sense of belonging is to the natural world. That what makes up a tree is literally what makes up me. It's all the same, all the same, like literal components, minerals. Yeah. I can't even think of your original question. I got kind of swept away in belonging. Oh, yikes. What a word. I guess one of my curiosities in asking the question was around how you relate to your body, whether in a sense that experience of being at home here. Yeah. Physicality. Yeah. Whether that was innate or whether that's been learnt yeah, that's been learned for me for sure. In fact, I would say one of the. Most, uh, revelatory awareness is that I had when I began my Integral Coaching Canada training, was to realize how actually deeply disconnected. I was from my body. And how wildly both in love and insanely dependent I was on my brain. and of course, I'm clever. I know I'm clever, uh, I can still be so seduced by my own thinking and, and believe wholeheartedly that my thoughts are accurate or, um, even relevant to, to reality. Uh, so. The, and the deep challenge for me is as much as I am a thinking person, I'm also have a deep, deep interiority. And, um, I didn't have a lot of skill there. So I, I would often find myself making that move to go inside and connect with what's deep and meaningful for myself in the moment as a way to figure out what I need, what I want, what should I do? Um, and I would just go there and be like, this feels like. A dark cave that is not hospitable to me. So I'd bump back back up into my brain and do more luscious thinking. So that just first generating that awareness that, oh, there actually is. a reality beyond the way I perceive it with my mind. Um, and that there's many other dimensions and textures and I get access to those dimensions and textures by paying attention to the other parts of me that, you know, quote, unquote, no, What's arising in the moment. I think what really set me up and opened me to ICC was that I had also in the few years prior trained as a yoga instructor. And so the threads of much beginning to really relate to my body. And movement and just literally sinking my breath to sequences that really opened something for me. And it was a total mystery. I used to call it the yoga magic because I like, I, it's like, I didn't know what is this thing? Why do I feel so good? What's happening? Why do I feel myself opening? And then in the context of some of the methodology, uh, uh, ICC realizing, wow, I use my body I don't belong to my body. Body as tool instead of body as home. And I think often for people, body as my possession versus one unified coming togetherness. Yeah. I think when you do start to sync with your physicality, it's almost like, not to be graphic, but it's almost like the most divine sexual partnership. There's a melding that allows you to recognize the magic, like you're saying, that does exist in pure, rich sensation. You know, I It's been quite a busy time here, I know it has been for you as well, and I rolled out my mat in my living room and I noodled around, and for me, being in my physicality is critical, and I jump out really regularly, similarly to what you're describing. So if I can come in, a deep sensation for me is like nectar, and it soothes me in a way that very little else does. And I realized that the more that I use my thinking mind, which I love to do, play with words and have sparky conversations. For me, I fall in love with people's brains, not their bodies. But I can get so wrapped up in that as you're describing. And the only thing that brings me back from that Ultimately, adrenaline cycle is coming right back here, but not in stillness initially. I have to move my body in order to be ready for the stillness, which is of course how the yogic traditions originally described the physical asana. They were preparation for meditation, yeah, I love that. I wonder if it might be a moment for those that are uninitiated in the ways of ICC to give a little flesh to the way that we look at and as the clients. So we work certainly in the first training on a quadrants theory framework. Would you be happy to give the listeners a little taste uh, in a nutshell? I think it's. necessary to say that, ICC, borrows, um, from integral theory, which is sort of the, the birth child of Ken Wilber. Um, and, uh, among the aspects of integral theory is, is an understanding that, um, reality is really complex and, um, to best understand. reality, moment to moment as it's arising. Um, we need to understand that every moment in time has a subjective and an objective quality and an individual and a collective, uh, quality. And when we map those distinctions, we come up with four quadrants. As a coach, two things are necessary. One is that when we're working with a client that we cultivate our ability to deeply appreciate and understand the world from their perspective. So, and that's different than saying, Oh, I get you. That's, it's, it's an ability to literally perceive how somebody else perceives the world. So, oh, Anthea, I'm pretty sure you relate to the world from a very subjective interior place of your deep knowing. What's relevant and right and meaningful and purposeful for you. If I'm working with you and I don't understand that, if I don't understand that your way of relating to yourself, to me, to the world, to your own longings is from the place of this deep interior, uh, need to make meaning from the inside out. And if I approach our work together ignoring that, I really stand the risk of not serving you. And the greater risk is that I may then impose proposed developmental pathway that reflects how I might relate to and go about this thing that you're longing for versus getting my self out of the way enough to be able to. allow you to be the expert of you. And I can only do that if I can do, as you've said, this thing called looking as you, which employs multiple, um, assessment tools in the integral coaching toolkit. The one that you're referencing that what we call the quadrants lens is Uh, lens that we use so that me as coach can deeply appreciate how is it that you do what you do in the world? How is it that you see things the way you see them? You make the assumptions that you do, that you carry the beliefs that you have. And if I can't do that, and I'm actually not fulfilling my role as literally honored partner to you. In your developmental journey, but rather I'm imposing, um, a conclusion around what I might do in your shoes I've really missed an essential, opportunity there to enable. I don't even know if enabling is the word, but to literally be part of. You discerning the best development pathway forward for, for you, it's almost irrelevant what I want for you. Of course, I want you to realize what it is that you're longing for, but how you get there needs to be entirely determined by you and anchored in your multiple ways. Of knowing of seeing the world of manifesting of connecting with others. And that's my, my experience is that that's what the multiple levels of ICC training offer is a way to really truly appreciate. And, and compassionately perceive another human in ways that then enable them to move skillfully towards their longings. Did that answer? It's wonderful. And you had me thinking about a book that I've been reading which talks about the fact that if a teacher stays in an impersonal stance, dictating around the theory or offering the tools or even let's say they're not hugely influencing the dialogue but they stay as teacher back here impersonal then there is a limitation by necessity on the students learning because they need the ecosystem of the personal in a relational sense, in order to blossom. And for me, that's part of why when I noticed this quality in your teaching and in your space holding, it was extraordinary for me because it was not the personal at the expense of the client. It, it wasn't even the personal for your own benefit. It was the personal employed as an enormous act of loving service and unifying service to foster the space. And the environment that would allow the client to identify their own next moves. And I just, I find it such an important focus and I come back to it regularly because a lot of the last year for me has been reflecting on what does it take to really support someone in a way that is deeply evolving for them, and deeply respectful for me, and limits the degree to which I could come in with my own shit, not to put too far. Right. No, I, I mean, the phrase that came to me as you were speaking was change arises in the relational field. And I, I think I used to think change arises in the individual. I actually don't think that anymore. I think that change almost is this third entity that, uh, arises between two humans in the context of coaching, be coach and a coachee in the context of this relational field that it's like an, uh, uh, uh, elastic, it has texture it's, it's an alive. We have one between us right now. even though we're on screen with each other, there's a relational field that's around us at all the time being informed by you and I being informed by much larger forces being grounded by the earth. Beneath us, and it's a powerful act of vulnerability for two humans to step into that relational field. Uh, and then the greatest maybe act of courage of of all is stepping into that field without actually knowing what's gonna happen. utterly that it's terrifying and it's liberating and. To have the knowing on this side of the table, let's say as the coach, that it is safe to not know and to embody that to such an extent that the client also knows that it's safe. To not know, but that you're both going to be here. You're both showing up in presence. You know, I had my first experience of that when I went into recovery and, and, and that was such a radical surrender without knowing the picture, but having a felt sense of what was possible by seeing the exemplar of other people that were living in a different way to the way that I had been living. So I could see it, almost taste it from my visual, but I didn't know it. You have to be willing to drop into a different relationship with faith. Mm. Totally. And with yourself and with some notion that you have to have the answers or that you could have the answers. I often, and it often happens teaching for me, um, and of course it happens in sessions with clients where it's like. Uh, a thought or an image just drops into me from somewhere and it is truly like it's no longer me speaking. It's literally arisen from the field between us and the only way to be able to receive that information is open heartedly. You know, in ICC we talk about having a strong spine and a soft belly and the strong spine are the tools. I, I, it would be naive, I think, to say all coaching needs to be as presence. Presence is essential. And I actually now think that what enables presence, and if I hold presence as that soft belly of that just completely open to the moment, what keeps me erect in that moment is all presence. All the wisdoms, all the teachings, all the tools that are like behind me, holding my spine up. And I, I, I was saying to someone the other day that I actually think that artistry of coaching. Is if I had to like break it down into a crude formula, it would be science. So the methods, the theories, the cognitive pieces, the tested pieces, science plus presence equals artistry. And if it's just science, it's transactional probably. If it's just presence, Like my body just slumps like it's like, it's beautiful, but, when there's structure accompanying with the softness of the presence, that's when I think the field just comes alive and what is possible is so much more than I'm guessing what either person in that interaction, or it's like, geez, I didn't know I was going at. think that or feel that today. It's like, yeah, me neither. And look, here we are in the magic of the space. The thing that you're making me reflect on is that there is so much spaciousness in the structure. So if I think back to how we were playing and what tools and lenses we were employing, so within the ICC framework for the initial round of training, you're looking at the idea that a person currently has one way of being. And that's a way that they see the world, that's a way that they do in the world. And that that way of being, we give that a metaphorical, like, allegory. And of course, because of the way that the brain responds to image, it's immediately easier for someone to capture and picture and almost, in some senses, forgive and permit an image where they slightly extrapolate that way of being from themselves, but they also see the identification. It's an easier move than if we ask someone to look in a non symbolic way at themselves. So broadly speaking, across the six months of a coaching container, you take someone from current way of being using a metaphor to an evolved, transmitted way of being using a metaphor. I'm saying this as though I'm saying it's Jenny and she's like, yeah, no, I know I mean, I only teach the book on this stuff. Thank you, Anthea, I'm delighted by how you're characterizing it. I'm like, I'm a good teacher. She's an amazing teacher, people. We will make sure you all have her details. Um, but the, the, the lovely thing about that is that we had a cohort of You know, 18, 19 people and everyone's learning experience was utterly distinct. And interestingly, the metaphors that came up from current way to new way, wow, they could not have been further apart. And the content that those metaphors stimulated, you know, this world only, but I had one that was particularly uncomfortable and it's a quite common tendency that, when we're given a current way metaphor, we tend to, you Those of us that go into the coaching space who have very active minds and lean towards self critique, we tend to be quite acid with the metaphor that we would give ourselves. And I remember you sitting me down early on in my training and saying, look, I think these words are a touch acerbic because you don't want to be in deep self hatred or resistance to the current way. The current way wants to be loved into evolution. Oh, loved into evolution. Is there any other way? Is there any other way, Jenny? No. You know, I had occasion recently to remember that it was during my Master Coach level training that I really claimed that my call on this planet is to be a humanizing force of love. I've never known anybody to grow from shame. Shame is the most contracted. Like, my body just turns in on itself. Like the fuel of, of growth and development is always love. And it can be fierce. It's not like, wishy washy love. I'm guessing, Anthea, you know this to be true, that the, the, the, among the most challenging moves we'll ever make as a human is self love. It is sometimes cripplingly challenging. Exactly. I've reflected on that a lot and I have posited that for me, and if I witness the people that are drawn to the work that I do, on a, on a cognitive level, the, the affront and the idea is that if I look at it, if I allow it space to be, then it will become permanent, it will become bigger. So we do this interesting dance with exposing the underside of our own belly. And in my vast experience personally and professionally, that is not the case. In fact, when you bring something to the surface, you give that person an opportunity to re evaluate. And even if that's all that happens, that it just comes to the surface and you just notice how big it is. Well, the process of bringing it to the surface teaches that person courage. And in the process of courage, there's an equalizing of the force. As it were, they realize more of who they are. They realize they also have this aspect of themselves, but they're no longer afraid of it. The entire time that it is living as an unconscious fear that we push down, it is still very directly feeding into that person's identity, the way that they speak, the way that they posture, the life that they allow themselves to live. But it does take enormous courage I mean, I think you just so gorgeously described this. move that we make in integral coaching that we use metaphor to facilitate, which is the subject object move, which is by naming that part of the individual that is making the move towards their longings, maybe even impossible by giving that part, that current way and name, we enable it to go from the unconscious driver. to something that they can now see. So the first step, as you well know, in our methodology is to bring into awareness. There is no ground for change without awareness. And our way, is metaphor, as a way to catch on to yourself with compassionate curiosity. And so much of that in our process is about also identifying the positives and the gains and the beauty of everything that current way has allowed you to do in your life. So if I was to flesh out for those listening, I'll be nice and exposed and I'll just give you my, my then current way example, and it's in relation to how we related to the training. But what was fascinating for me is that that way that I related to the training was also just symbolic of how I related to academic context being visible. Being a professional, being a grown up, I would argue, I was encouraged to be a grown up very young. Of course, I then felt wonderfully safe with adults playing in the field of intellect, and much less safe in the field of play with other children. So my current way was the ever watchful fox. And what she did was she would scan from a distanced vantage point what's going on in the field. Who knew who? Who was the power holder? What dances were working well? And where do I fit then into that picture? And how do I maintain my sense of distance while also offering wisdom? So how do I curate how the other person sees me relative to how I show up? And all of those things, of course, served me enormously in every single career that I had, and in some respects, in my early romantic relationships, and of course, they unbelievably limited not just my expansion in, in, uh, various senses. The thing they had the greatest impact on was I wasn't able to change my belief system that I was welcome and I was equal and I could be lovable and I wasn't open to intimacy because I was always, always holding myself back and a little bit up in the sky, and it was an unwillingness to get into the sticky terrain of discomfort of God, what, what will they think of me? And will this be enough? Will I be enough? if the Fox is always tending The perimeter and I even had the image of the fox and sheep's clothing. It's like, if I'm going to, if I'm going to move into the field, I better put something else on. So you can't really see me. What were the implications for you as a coach from that stance? Well, it was a problem, although it had never appeared to be a problem before, because it was how I saw a lot of the world operating, that it lends itself to distance, power dynamic, you can't cultivate the emotional space for the client in the same way. And from a collegiate perspective, it inhibits your ability to develop partnership with people on a similar level or, or any other level. Which of course makes you isolated and vulnerable. And when I witness people in the space still in aversion of that mentality, what's quite sad is the life of what they're teaching becomes, to my experience, more and more stagnant. Because they continue to operate from script. Because there's nothing live coming into the field that helps them to continue to evolve. They're sticking to the safe identity, but they stay, therefore, in the box. Yeah. Literally tending the perimeter. Everything is about the outside layer and nothing is about the inside organs. Yeah. Oof. Well, that's a limiting stance as a coach, where the call is into vulnerability and open space and, wow, so, darling, what's next? You had a new way metaphor. I did. I did. and it was groundbreaking for me, actually. And I started to play with it even just in how I held the space before the client came into the Zoom room or the live room. she was a goddess. She was Artemis. And she was earthen, and her tissues were strong and wiry, and she had armor made of pale steel. And one of the beautiful things that came in terms of space holding was, I realized that I wasn't trying to enter into someone else's space, ever. That was what I'd always tried to do up until that point. And in fact, what was being facilitated was I was allowed to hold space in my own ecosystem. And I would invite them in to this space. With deep love, deep compassion, but it changed utterly my embodied sense as they walked into the room. And for them. I wasn't trying to get inside them. That wasn't the aim. That's not how you unlock the secret. No. We come into this beautiful space together and that's where the magic happens. Yeah. Do you remember, Jenny, what your first training metaphors were? Um, I want to say it was my current way at the time was some sort of self awareness. Sparkler, like, you know, those little birthday ones that you hold in your hand and they're really effervescent for a few minutes and then they, they dim. So you know, one of the words that came up, I'll link this back in a second. One of the words that came up for me as you were speaking about your own experience with working with different metaphors was that at the heart of being able to unfold into a new way. Is that we must feel safe and we must feel like the dimensions of ourselves that the current way was designed to protect, feel equally safe, uh, and able in the body of the new. So for me, sparkling was very much a way to bring all my, yeah, I've got lots of energy and a sparkly mind. So I could kind of dazzle with my mind and almost like, you know, when one of those sparklers is burning, you're a little bit blinded. It's like, if you're focused, if I'm sparkling and being all Jenny, Jenny, Jenny, Then you may not actually see the parts of me that are, don't feel like I belong, who are very self critical, is self doubting, oh, I'm not enough, all those bits don't have to show up or get very beautifully protected in this, in this Sparkling ness, but again, much like you described that challenge of being a coach who is a sparkler is that I'm performing. I'm like dazzling my clients. I'm actually not open to the field between us. I'm filling the field with sparkle. Yeah. So that was like gulp. Uh, like what? I didn't know I was gonna have to be vulnerable and do this coaching thing. Um, but it turns out, and I, you know, this is, this is a huge mystery to me. It turns out I actually was ready to try something other than sparkling in the way that Artemis became available to you as a home for the Fox to come still be alive. But under her protective stance, you know, I imagined you literally with your arrows of compassion as Artemis, like she's fierce and she holds space in the most loving, tending way for all the forest creatures. So why are we ready in those moments? I don't know. How did I, how did you stumble your way into any number of places that you have found yourself in? That feels like unknowable magic. To me, that is the universe creating opportunity as the universe does and for whatever reason being willing to step in. So I can't remember what my new way metaphor was that allowed me to embrace my mind and embrace my effervescence while being able to bring myself not wholly because I'm sure I'm still working on being able to fully, fully bring all of me to Big Esk, uh, and maybe it is a lifelong unfolding. New layers become available and the opportunity to bring the new layers in is ever evolving. I actually love to think of it that way. That marries with my sense because one of the things we were chatting about before we turned on the recording today was the age of the crone, which I just love as a phrase. I've had a lot of people much more in the last year or two positively embracing what's now quote unquote called crone energy. I mean there are retreats about. Embracing the Crone, which is actually in some respects very well deserved because what we were talking about was the way that particularly women have come to view this dawning of age, this awakening into a different era of womanhood, which in ancient times and ancient cultures would have been profoundly welcomed as a, an arrival point, as a signal of elevated status earned through years of self practice and growth. Ego dissolution almost. I wonder if you would talk to us a little bit about your experience of that theme of aging, um, how you're moving into that. Yeah. I'm, uh, I'm thrilled to feel myself actually joining the, um, legacy of elderhood that has existed since the dawn of time. You know, it aging now is. Has a new complexion because we now live 20, 30 years longer than we used to a few hundred years ago. So it does have a different complexion, but, you know, here's how I want to answer that is by saying, I think. I thought as a younger woman, so I'm 56. I'm, I'm, I'm in this really interesting, uh, transition space. I jokingly say I'm on the on ramp into elderhood. And I think I used to think I know I used to think that, the time comes. And surely it's well before 56, that the time comes when you've kind of figured it all out. And there's no more searching, there's no more struggling, you just, you got it all. Uh, and what an interesting process it has been to discover, meh, that's wrong. Uh, and that in fact, my, now my greatest wish is that my deepest epiphany happens on my last breath. That this unfolding of self, this continuously becoming who I am, um, is a life, it's life's journey. There isn't, there's no there there, there's no moment where it's not what life is about. And that, the reality of that is becoming so much clearer and fun and exciting for me I am definitely feeling some of the characteristics of adulthood, namely doing and achieving and some of the really necessary bits of building life and sustainability and, and resourcing yourself. You know, I'm not dissing those as necessary life moments. And for me, those moments have come with. A felt sense of needing to prove. Myself there has been a performative quality to some of how I moved and, and certainly I'd say stronger in early adulthood, the, this sense of needing to, um, demonstrate my value I think when some people speak about, um, imposter syndrome, driven by I need to perform to prove my value, that my value isn't inherent in my humanity. Uh, so as I've Developed and, you know, parts of my life I've imploded at different times, you know, I, I've also lived through all the, all the things that we do in life. And now at this stage, um, really deepening into an understanding that I, I am both chronologically and spiritually, well in every way, I'm being called into what is like the final quarter of life. And that it comes with an opportunity for creation that is the most powerful thing I think I've tasted. It is in no way do I feel like The, the walls are narrowing, you know, life is like an inverted, it's like a V, where possibility, we seem to just keep expanding and expanding, and I actually think it's the liberation from. Even menstruation, uh, for those who are mothers or caregivers, freedom from some of those responsibilities. it's like a rebirth, it really is, uh, without, well, yeah, no, I was going to say there's been some felt sense of being in the birth canal at different points in time, uh, a, a delicious freedom to be. Truly unfold as I am, for me, it means slowing some of the doing and the busy and the sparkling. It means muting. Some of that sparkling. So I can really hear. With my body. With my heart. What is this next call? Because life is calling. And all the busyness of adulthood I think can make it real. Like the angst of adolescence makes it hard to hear the call. The busyness of adulthood makes it hard to hear the call. It is like a spaciousness is opening for me to really hear the call, which seems to be calling me even deeper into courage to heed what I hear. And it might require making some hard choices about how I'm going to live my life it's non negotiable. If I want to truly live in full alignment and harmony with this one precious life. Because it's the only one that we have. And how arrogant, actually, I now feel that. Arrogant, dismissive. of the beauty of life to not heed the call. It's a fascinating explanation and has me reflecting on whether hearing that there is a call. I tend to think that everyone on some level has a call, whether they're consciously aware of it or not. And the calls of course, look wonderfully diverse. And you know, many of the women that I work with, they're navigating currently this balance. They're trying to achieve balance, which arguably is not possible. professional desire and accreditation, I would say, and family heart and commitment and fostering. It's as though there's a mash of two image identities. together, and of course that will never work because they're butting heads all the time. But what I feel I can sort of sense in them, particularly around their families, is this call. There's a call to something within the family unit relative to that period of time that they're in. And I love that you talked at the beginning about being a representation of Of love being a, being a harbinger of it because behind your head, although the listeners can't see this, there is a beautiful poster that has love written on it and I got my call. this year, and suddenly it made sense of every single thing that I had gone through, or thought that I had gone through from a place of suffering, because the call for me, without it sounding in any way arrogant, was to be a source of healing to needless suffering. And it just is. It doesn't have anything to do with ego. It doesn't have anything to do with thinking that I have the answers for anyone else. It just, I can see the point where there's capacity for a change. And I'm lucky that people usually are open to me holding space for them in those moments. It's a privilege. That that is the response for some, but as you say, you can't unknow that. Damn it. Yeah, So it forces a lot of very sobering questions about, am I incongruity with that? That's right. And this is the work of the adult. Like this is a warrior's path. Like this is not for the faint of heart. And, and there's deep joy and humor and hilarity in all of it. And community. Of course. Of course. So it's all, it's all of it. Wow. Thank you for heeding your own call. The world is a better place when we have the courage to step in. And I would add to that, now that I'm at this stage in my life, I'm pretty sure there isn't just one call. I think life calls us constantly. And, and so now for me, as I'm, as, as I say, as I'm turning towards literally the light of elderhood, um, something in that call is shifting and it's taking a different form and different texture and a different flavor. So I still think my essence, I don't know how else to be other than, uh, an embodiment of love in the world. I think it's my superpower. there it is. and then how that's going to. Come to be is going to then be, I think, reflective of the different stages and places and opportunities. And sometimes I'm going to need to just lie on the riverbank for a while and rest.. And that's as essential to the fulfillment of the call as everything else. Well, because about 10 minutes ago, you said, I don't know what it is that means that people are ready for their new way. I don't know what that magic is. And the instinct that came up in me was, it's the rest that you give yourself. It's critical. And there's an enormous amount that's happening underneath the surface that is readying you, alchemizing what came in and you for the next stage. I'm Matt. I'm excited to see what unfolds for you. Um, me too. I never knew at 30 that I would say, oh my gosh, if 50 has been this amazing, like, imagine when I'm 70, I can't wait for me. And then here's the end with deep gravitas. Of course. Grounded. You know, you had that image of yourself floating up here. It's like, A bit of a, don't get in my way ness. The older that we get, I think we let go of the need to be small. That's it. It has been such a luscious treat for me to have you with us. Even believe an hour has flown by. Hour and twenty, we've love you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you. I love you too. I will connect with you soon. Listeners, we have adored being with you, whether you're listening to this as soon as it comes out, whether this lands for you two years after this conversation, by which point Jenny will be a wise priestess somewhere in the woodland. It has been such a treat and I hold you deep in my heart every time I sit down with a special guest

Anthea:

gorgeous listeners. Thank you. So. So. much. For your ears. I hope. You enjoy today's. today's. episode. To find. More about our. Featured guests. Have a look in the show. Notes.