Finding Your Way Home; The Secrets to True Alignment

Sexual intimacy as the missing piece to spiritual practice - Justine Dawson on harnessing your authentic desire

• Anthea Bell

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Gorgeous listeners,

Welcome to a powerful and tender episode of Finding Your Way Home. Today’s guest is the incredible Justine Dawson - teacher, spiritual guide, and intimacy coach. Justine’s work is a profound exploration of what it means to truly meet yourself, unburdening the shame, fear, and judgment that hold us back from intimacy and aliveness. She has a gift for weaving together the rational and the instinctual, creating a bridge between the practical and the deeply embodied.

In this conversation, we dive into the complexities of intimacy, sexuality, and the joy of being fully present in our bodies. Justine shares her personal journey, from years of silent meditation retreats to exploring the often-taboo realm of desire, connection, and the erotic as life force. Her reflections will leave you inspired to embrace the full spectrum of who you are with curiosity and self-compassion.

In this episode, Justine and I explore:

  • How sexuality is not just about physicality but an expression of life force
  • The role of presence, surrender, and safety in fostering deep intimacy
  • The importance of cultivating a loving relationship with your body and pleasure
  • Breaking free from cultural stories of shame and perfectionism to access true aliveness
  • The transformative power of curiosity, self-compassion, and connection in relationships

This episode is a joyful, unfiltered exploration of life’s most intimate terrain - a call to reconnect with your body, awaken your desires, and step into deeper connection with yourself and others.

For More on Justine

Visit Justine’s website, justinedawson.com, to learn about her offerings, including one-on-one and couples coaching, group coaching for women, and her online class series, The Mindful Bedroom. You can also connect with her on Instagram at @justineadawson for bite-sized teachings and insights.

Stay connected with the podcast
Follow me on Instagram @ab_embodiment or visit our website for updates, guest insights, and behind-the-scenes magic.

And to explore working together more deeply 


Sending you love and an invitation to embrace curiosity, pleasure, and presence, wherever this finds you.

A x

Anthea:

welcome to Finding Your Way Home, the secrets to true alignment. I'm your host, Anthea Bell, movement teacher, mind body coach, and lifelong spiritual seeker. This is a podcast about the depth, weight, and profound healing power of connection between mind and body, spirit and soul, and from one human to another. Together with an incredible range of inspiring guests, we'll explore just what connection and alignment mean. How to get there in a world full of the temptation to conform, and how great challenge ultimately can lead to life changing transformation. Get ready for groundbreaking personal stories, conversational deep dives, and a toolkit of strategies to build not just your inner knowing, but your outer world. Let's dive in.

Gorgeous, gorgeous listeners. Welcome to this week's episode of Finding Your Way Home. That title could not be any more appropriate for today's guests. I have an incredibly special person zooming in all the way from L. A. to be with us. Justine Dawson. is a beautiful teacher, spiritual guide, coach. She has particular expertise in the field of intimacy, relationship, uh, sexuality, desire, and really looking underneath the lid at the storylines, the The tempting behavioral traits that really can block us from accessing those elements of ourselves, those intrinsic qualities to being a full, expressive, creative human being. I'm going to give you a little insight into her work from her own words. From the inside out, Justine works with people to unburden the shame, fear, and judgment that prevents them from intimacy with all aspects of themselves and life. Both practical and provocative, she is a translator between worlds, bridging the rational and instinctual, theoretical and visceral, spiritual and mundane. Team The Listening, I can tell you having been in space with Justine online that her teachings are profound and deeply beautiful and they touched me so much when I was visiting LA last year that, uh, I knew right from the inception of the podcast that I wanted her to come along and speak. So we're going to give her an opportunity to unmute herself and be with us. Justine, thank you so much for being here. Hi, Anthea, and hi, everyone. It's really lovely to be with you. So happy to share and be in dialogue together and explore this, uh, what it means to be in deep alignment in our lives. I would love to start us, Justine, if you're happy to, with a little bit of a dive into your own story. So, you have had a very interesting, geographically quite extensive career in the sort of meditative, teaching, mindfulness, spirituality space. I'd love to know how that started for you, and what got you into the particular terrain of intimacy, sexual intimacy, these topics that can feel, I suppose even in America, you know, And more so in the UK, a little bit taboo. Great. So, uh, well, let's see. You're, you're right. It's my journey has taken me to, to make some big leaps. And, uh, sometimes when I think back, I think, Oh, where, when did it start? And, you know, There's so many different starting points. But when I was 18, a good friend gave me a book by Thich Nhat Hanh that was called Pieces Every Step. It's really quite a beautiful book. And I remember when I read that, um, He was describing about how no matter what you do, you can be present, alive, really deeply in touch with the moment. And that was such a radical idea for me. At 18, I think I had, you know, I just hadn't had that perspective that, oh, it was possible to live that way, not just caught in the swirl of my head and my worries and, and in response to everything around me. And so that set a trajectory and in my early 20s, I started practicing meditation. I went on a retreat and started practicing. And then, uh, when I was 26, 27, I came to the U. S. I was from Canada. And I, I came to the U S to practice in Northern California at spirit rock meditation center. And when I got there and started practicing a number of, of long retreats of sitting and walking in silence, practicing the exact thing to not how to described of being with my experience, uh, I felt like, wow, I I'd arrived somewhere that felt so both new, but also familiar. And a sense of really being at home, being in that deep alignment. And so for several years, I practiced, I, uh, I did short retreats. I did long retreats up to three months at a time. And when I was on retreat, even though they could be really challenging because I wasn't speaking to other people, was having to just sit with whatever was arising inside of me. Um, I also felt a lot of peace. And a lot of beauty in being able to be so still and so present. And, um, and honestly, in retrospect, thinking not having to be with the anxieties and uncertainties and complications of human relationship. Um, though it's amazing on retreat. You can create that anyway, you know, through your imagination, anyone who's been on retreat. You might have experienced that. Um, but I had that experience. And so, you know, for several years, I was practicing. I was invited to train as a teacher. And what happened is at the end of one retreat, it became so clear to me I had been in silence and practicing for three months. And when that retreat ended, it was such a contrast to move from the silence and seclusion and stillness into the uncertainty, the kind of it. relative chaos of connection. And I really didn't know what to do. So it felt like this huge divide. And I thought, wow, maybe I'm meant to be a monastic, someone who just devotes their whole life to spiritual practice, largely, um, living, you know, doing meditative practice on retreat, uh, because it felt at that point so much more natural and easy. But I had this little voice that said, Are you leaving some part out that am I am I choosing this because I'm afraid of something else? Am I choosing it because I truly love it and I truly feel called or because I'm confused? I'm confronted. I actually don't know what to do in this other terrain. Of intimacy. And so I, and I, I knew what the answer was. I knew that when it came to deep intimacy to sexuality to connection that I didn't actually know how to fully apply my practice there. I didn't know how to feel peace, wakefulness, embodiment, ease, probably would be the biggest word. I didn't know how to feel that in that realm. And so I decided. To, to say, let me, let me really learn about this realm. And, um, so there's a number of different pieces, but I actually, then I had a relationship, which in many ways, um, was a really beautiful relationship with a man who also had a deep spiritual practice was. Very attractive was a great partner in so many ways. Um, but there was some seed in me that knew that it wasn't quite right. and I was like, well, was this is this because again, you know, I'm. I'm not wanting relationship. Is it because I'm wanting something different? It was really confusing to me. Like I think relationship often is for people. What do I really want? Um, what am I being called to, you know, what is me that is, that are my issues and, and what is it in this relationship? And so, you know, at that point I was in my early thirties and. Looking back, I think I actually just had a lot to learn and a lot to discover in myself that I hadn't yet discovered. And so I ended up embarking on a journey, which I saw as taking my practice out of silence and seclusion of retreat, um, out into the world to really explore intimacy and sexuality and to get to know that for myself. I had never really thought of myself as like a deeply sexual person. And again, was part of that wondering, am I just, am I a nun? Like, is that more my nature? And in fact, in my high school yearbook, I was voted most likely to be a nun. So I was like, maybe that's true. I need to find out. that was Oh, over, it's almost 20 years ago, not quite 20 years ago, that I made that decision, maybe more like 18, 17 years ago, of to go on this exploration and really find out. So this is really amazing to listen to you because one of the questions that's coming up for me is, you know, in theory, we are liberated to become sexually active, explorative, let's say at, well, 13, 14, 15 years old. And what you're describing is a woman who, at the age of 30, 31, 32, is in some respects still quite shut off from the depth and the nuance of her own desire, sexual appetite, and the capacity of expressing that with another human being in dynamic. I imagine that you're not alone in that. I definitely relate to that. And I presume that in the practice that you run now, you see that sort of story. Oftentimes, I wonder what you've been able to glean as to the why we are so either numb or restrained or closed down in that area for such a long time. Yeah, absolutely. I work with a lot of women and men, people of all genders, really, that can have that. That, you know, we might have sex. Seeming sexual freedom, um, but actually if we have freedom and wisdom and, and, and understanding inside of us of how to relate to sexuality and, you know, definitely in, you know, I live in the U S now. And, but I think in a lot of Western cultures, there's extremes. There can be extremes of kind of sexual openness. You know, or sexual explicitness, we'll say like pornography, um, that, and then on the other hand, you know, very sort of scientific models of sexuality. Um, and then at the same time, a whole kind of underpinning of, there's still very, can be a conservatism around what it means. And I would say, especially as a woman, what does it mean to be sexual? So this whole mix of things doesn't mean that we're actually getting really useful information or guidance and Uh, for myself, you know, I was actually a late bloomer. I didn't even have my first kiss till I was 18. So I was working with a lot of like shyness and uncertainty. And I was a very much more, very introverted. And, and I work with a lot of late bloomers. And so knowing that, um, you know, Oh, it took me a while to kind of get to know, what is it that I want? What is it? What are these feelings inside of me mean feelings that. Before I might have been scared by I was scared by I didn't know how to be with them. I didn't know how to be with others energy other sexual energy. And so I had to learn how to be with my own sexual energy and then how to interact with another. And I would say even on the other hand, like I also work with women who have had other sexual energy really drove them and they were very sexually active, really young, but they didn't actually get what they really wanted, or they had some experiences that were good, some that weren't. And so they were sorting through like, what does this actually mean? I had a lot of sexual freedom, but I didn't have sexual gratification or intimate gratification. And so, From either side, I can really see that, um, generally in our culture, we're not, we're not taught. We don't have it integrated in how to deeply inhabit our bodies and listen to them and to know what, what is it they're asking of us. Um, what is it that actually feels good, you know, to even really know like, Oh, this is what pleasure feels like, or, or this is what desire feels like a sense of our own inner compass that way. And then how to take that into relating to another, um, We, so we try to follow a lot of external ideas, you know, again, you know, kind of looping back sometimes where porn might come in. We have these ideas of what sexual gratification, some sort of distorted idea of what it's meant to look like, but we don't actually know and trust a sense in our own bodies. I'm curious, on that particular topic, the last one, what would you say from your lens is the benefit of developing an intimate relationship with your own sexuality? what are the gains for you in harnessing this aspect of you? Yeah, it's so important for each person to consider that for themselves. what might be there for me? And, and what I really see, what I experience and what I really see in a lot of people that I work with is that yes, there's sexuality, which is, you know, our genitals, our, our, um, physical touch, um, you know, those experiences we have with another person. But there's also something deeper and broader, um, that is really about the erotic, which is really about life force. And when we're relating to our own sexual energy, ultimately we're relating to the expression of life energy moving through us. And, and moving through us in an unhindered way. So, uh, when we get in touch with that and when we're willing to open and be curious about it, rather than having to manage, shut down, avoid, and in that way, relating to life energy that way, um, as something scary to be controlled, to be avoided, we can open up to a lot more moving through us, which is a Can mean more creativity, more inspiration, um, more a sense of desire and, um, clarity of what we're drawn to in life, what's right or wrong for us. And so, you know, there's, there's, there's the physicality of sexuality, which is also on the other hand, just in exploring ourselves. About the nourishment of pleasure about how good that is for our nervous system. And, and how much when we're in contact with that, it's much easier to show up in the world and, uh, be kind, be generous, be present when our body has some nourishment and some pleasure, that's really foundational. So. You can see like there's many different reasons. I could probably speak this entire conversation just on the benefits of, of opening and exploring and knowing ourselves, knowing ourselves. And like to loop back to when I said, you know, my journey was really of that question. What if I didn't cut any part of myself out? You know, I want to know myself. I want to know how life moves through me. And sexuality is a huge part of that. I remember one of the first introductions to, um, to meditation that I had was from Tara Brach, who is obviously internationally, um, revered, and I know that you've trained with Jack Kornfield. And you've just reminded me of one of the principles that I first learned through Tara's work, which was, this idea of, of almost saying to the part of you that is the most vulnerable, the most afraid, the most, uh, repressed, or, um, even, even sort of disgusting to your own ego based lens, saying to that part of you, dear one, welcome. I'm glad you're here. What do you need? How can I support you? It was that real tend and befriend approach that she speaks about so often. And In you just using that phrase of what is it like when I don't cut off any part of me, you know, it takes my heart to the degree of suffering that there is, mostly unconsciously, almost with the storyline that a lot of people are living in, which is, it has to be hard in order for me to deserve the pleasure. To validate this and I see that a lot in the practitioners that I work with to the extent that we did. I'm doing a training course at the moment and one of the aspects of the course is to allow people the opportunity to really feel. raw emotion rather than ruminating on the story that might be associated with it. And we did a little experiment where we ran through anger, we ran through, um, grief, both of those really easy actually for people to connect with. Joy, so, so hard. I didn't even go towards desire because we weren't, we were, we were nowhere near being able to access that for them. And I appreciate that when you're in a, in a learning environment, in some ways you come with your academic brain and you're more contracted, which makes experiencing love, experiencing joy, experiencing passion harder. But I would argue it's a general tendency across society, particularly in women. Yeah, it's really true, you know, and I, I definitely work with a lot of women who come and they have trouble accessing, you know, I'd say like their own pleasure. Right. And so, um, their own sense of being able to receive could even think of that, you know, each of us have a capacity to receive and for many people and certainly with myself, we might think, Oh, Oh, I want all these things. Yes, that sounds great. But when it comes down to it, do I actually have the capacity to receive or what parts of myself might block that? And, um, certainly there can be that sense that, Are, um, all of the ways in which we look to please others to get some sense of safety. So I don't think my partner wants to do that, or I don't want to bother them, or, um, it's too much to ask for. Maybe it's selfish. These can be a lot of different things that come up. Uh, and, and also that feeling that, well, maybe there's something wrong with me because I don't seem to be able to have pleasure easily. And, uh, and it's such a, um, huge misconception is that for a lot of women is that we're supposed to get off, we're supposed to have pleasure from this kind of set menu of sexuality that we, that we kind of just sort of see in movies or that, you know, most people have been taught. And so if we don't actually feel a lot of pleasure, if we're not deeply sexually satisfied, That, that if we're not in total bliss from that, oh, there must be something wrong with me versus. Maybe we actually have never really learned the possibilities of our body and how to attune and, um, how to experience pleasure, especially through a female body, which can look completely different. And to know, what if it's not that there's something wrong with you, that you're broken, but actually, neither you or your partner or people that you've been with have ever actually learned. how to open that in you. And so, so that's part of it is, is. Taking and identifying that story that something's wrong with you and actually getting curious about what might be deeply right and what might actually work for you. And then the practice of being able to drop in out of all of the, um, mental anxiety, emotional anxiety of what someone else is thinking, what they're feeling, what, what we imagine is too much or not enough and be able to be present in our bodies. To actually feel the sensation and the pleasure and the intimacy and the love, and to take that in, we, if we're just caught in mental rumination and anxiety, we can't be present to feel the way that we're being touched. And so that's, that's really so where so much of a mindfulness practice comes in is to be able to drop below that surface storm into our bodies where pleasure happens. There's also something coming up for me around giving in to surrender, so letting go of the control that may be so often day to day is running your life. Yes. It's imagining what is it like to really drop into presence with a partner and it's, it's that you have to let go, you have to be willing to trust both yourself and them and the process. Absolutely. So, uh, so surrender, right? And, and, you know, when we're constantly looking at how do I, how am I being perceived? Um, how do I get this right? You know, if you have perfectionist tendencies, um, then it's always this constant management of life. Like everything I'm doing, I'm just, there's some part of me, even if it's very subtle, that's managing. And the idea of like actually putting that down. Not being in control, not managing at all, I mean, the deepest intimate sexual pleasure is being completely out of control and having something greater than you move through you. And, and so that can be quite scary. Like, what is my face going to look like? What sounds am I going to make? You know, I often say, like, really good sex, really good intimacy is a mess. There's fluids, there's sounds, and we're not all put together. And so, so it really, it does mean we have to, um, well, in some ways we have to want that more. We have to want that experience more. than the experience of being well put together. And so there's a risk to that. And there is a need for enough safety, enough safety, which really, I mean, like enough trust that we can let go. And it, it doesn't mean that like, oh, we, safety is created through continually holding on, continually being in control. Real safety means We can let go and be completely out of control and, and we trust that experience and we can meet whatever arises, which is sometimes our shadow, right? Cause sometimes in sex also can be where the shadow can come out and play. And if we're really afraid of that, if we're constantly trying to manage or, or, or repress that. It's too intimidating, but if we feel safe enough and curious enough to allow life to move through us with some approval, some curiosity and some appropriate containment, then it can be a lot of fun. It's amazing listening to you because I'm just really reflecting on, in a sense, the gravity of what you're doing. It's both light and joyful and playful, and as a representation of what it to truly be immersed in it. It's quite a weighty action. And I was just reflecting to myself, I wonder if Justine thinks that we jump into bed with people too early. So for me, time and, and kind of action, it's all so relative. And so, you know, my, my main question when working with people is, What's driving you? Because we can get caught. Again, that's another way of control. If I do this action right, if I follow this formula, if I wait three months to have sex with someone, which is kind of often a prescription you hear, that's doing it right. And sometimes prescriptions are interesting to take on as an experiment. Let me try this. What do I learn about myself by doing this? But it's much more about, well, what's driving me? Am I driven to sleep with someone right away because I'm trying to get something? I'm trying to get the, some attachment. I'm, I feel like that's what I need to do. Or, um, I don't know how to be intimate other ways, so I go for that. Um, On the other hand, I hold off and I don't allow much sexual intimacy because I'm afraid I want to maintain a certain appearance or I want to maintain a control. And so it really depends on your motivation. And that's why I look at, uh, What are the underlying parts that are at play? And so then you can make a decision with an understanding and more freedom of Casual sex can be amazing, it can be nourishing, it can be playful, it can be a great way to know yourself. If that's what you're looking for. But if you're looking for a, uh, maybe a long term relationships, I mean, I have, I know people who are married and they met on hookup apps like that. And that's, so that's also, you know, and it's, it didn't stop something long term from flourishing. Um, but again, it's. It's, it's a level of self knowing and honesty and reflection about what's really driving you. Yeah, you're reminding me that one of the descriptors you use is that you teach awakening. And that's also what you're describing is can each and every one of us awaken, not just awaken our desire, but awaken in this present moment to what's really here. I would love it if we could take a little dive into our body image and how much you feel that impacts at least the storylines that people come in with and that you help them to work through. Yeah, so much. And I would say women as well as men, uh, though, you know, definitely I see it for so many women, this fear of being seen of, and, and really their relationship with their own body of, that has disgust, that has shame, that has so much judgment. And Um, young women, and then I especially say women is as we age, and that's kind of this interrogation of every wrinkle of every pound of and a hyper vigilance and, um, and so then a perception that. You know, a partner is, is as hypervigilant as we are of our own bodies. And, and, and so then, you know, just being caught in the mental proliferation of what someone's thinking, what someone's seeing that make it really hard to actually drop into pleasure. And from a nervous system perspective, of course, that is taking you into a state where it would be very difficult for your body to be coming out of fight and flight and into any kind of sexual access. Exactly. Yeah. There's so much activation and it doesn't feel safe. So, you know, it constantly critiquing ourselves creates a lack of safety with ourselves and then a perception of lack of safety with others. And, and so, you know, with, with women, I, and men actually both, what I really work with is starting by finding their own pleasure. And when the relationship with a body, with our body. Is largely based on critique. Just slowly building a relationship that can be based on the pleasure of this body, the presence of this body, of moving outside of the visual, but into the visceral. So, oh, what is it like to stand in a warm shower and feel the water running over your body? What is it like to be in a cool breeze and feel that on your cheek or the way the clothes rest on your skin? What is it like to touch yourself or, if you're with a partner, to allow them to touch you in an area that does feel safe? Maybe it's just the palm of your hand. And, and to start, Building the capacity for this body exactly as it is to feel pleasure bit by bit, not, not leaping in, not forcing or rushing, but it's like building a counterbalance and, and that practice like mindfulness practice builds over time, the more we put attention on and cultivate the capacity to be in our bodies and receive it, um, we're able to get out of that. Tumult of our mind, uh, and, and then start to appreciate this body. And then just another thought that I want to share, because this is really practical, is I often really suggest, this is often especially for women, is say, go online and look up images of women, women who are embodying their confident, sexy selves in like your body shape, and actually look, like we might have this idea, but to see like, wow, there is this woman who is the same size as me and look at how she's like, You know, she's rocking her bikini. She's putting on her lingerie. She's walking with a confidence and there's, I mean, really the fortunate thing is there's so many more examples of that now these days to be able to look and find our reflection. And so, you know, or look at women that are like, you know, are aging or in different ways that it doesn't have to mean the story we have in our head. And, you know, which also. You know, not to unvalidate that because, you know, often experiences over life have created that story like negative experiences, but we need to really cultivate the counterbalance. So, so this is, it's ongoing slow work to how we relate to ourselves and to deliberately build a different relationship. But it's also so beautiful because, you know, when we're in spiritual context, we don't hesitate with the idea of practice. It's inbuilt in the mechanism that you assume if you go on silent retreat or if you go on, uh, any kind of teacher training, you're, you're, dedicating the hours to that particular aspect of learning. And yet somehow we have forgotten to do that in the terrain of sexuality. I wonder sometimes whether it's that we feel that we should know it all by this point. I wonder that particularly for men. I'm kind of curious if, if you've been speaking to our male listeners and you were going to just point them to some, um, myth busting or, or things that maybe they can let go of, Yeah, I really feel, um, for men, I mean, I feel for all of us, you know, but cause there's this idea of that, you know, especially if you're at a certain age or if you're a coach, if you're a therapist, if you're a spiritual practitioner, there's some idea that you're supposed to know it all. And, and maybe even I noticed this more and more with younger generations, you know, Gen Z especially, um, even younger millennials is there's this sense that. People have read a lot. They've been exposed to a lot on social media. They have a lot of ideas. So there's that sense then that I can talk about it, I can say it, but I actually can't embody it yet because I haven't necessarily practiced it. So there's this conundrum and this tension of kind of feeling like you're supposed to be a certain way. And, and, you know, in, again, in heterosexual relationships, especially often we think, Oh, like, well, man should just know how to do these things. And yet has he really been taught? Has any woman really been honest with him? Has he had education beyond porn to actually really know what works? You know, if he said heterosexual in a woman's body, and, you know, and also for women kind of this feeling like, oh, this, it should just work, we should just be able to do this. And, you know, my experience and what I see from working with really thousands of people is that, we can have these peak experiences where we might've had, it might've been a one night stand, or it might've been at the beginning of a relationship where we had this, wow, opening where sex was so easy, so turned on, where we felt so amazing. Um, but it didn't last. And similarly in the spiritual practice or in personal development, we might have these aha moments at a seminar or on a retreat, but then we have to go and we have to practice and cultivate. The muscle, the capacity to live there, same with intimacy and sexuality. So, you know, it's taking those aha moments, but then coming back and doing the daily practice of attuning to our bodies, attuning to a partner's body, having openness and curiosity, uh, attunement, a beginner's mind, uh, of dropping below all of the ideas and actually noticing in this moment, uh, What actually feels most alive. It wasn't even the same as five minutes ago or what we did yesterday that worked so well. And so, so yeah, I, um, you know, what I'd really say with men is like, take off the pressure of feeling like you're supposed to know and you're supposed to show up and impress and handle it. And ask, be curious, um, be willing to like hear and to discover together and equally with women, you know, whether whatever mix of people you are in a relationship, I would say, like, what if together. You're prospecting for gold. What if together you're looking for the most electric point and that neither of you come in with an assumption about it, but you're both have that curiosity. What if we slow down here? What if we go lighter here? You know what? What if we do something we've never done before? What if we really drop out of the, um, trying to make something happen and the buzz of ideas and techniques and really. feel, really feel in our bodies and have kind of the humility and the presence to do that. If we could do that and drop all of that other pressure that we've picked up, probably we'll discover something really magical and really beautiful. Well, I'm just thinking about the impact that that would create as an exercise in a relationship. If you have that degree of presence and And sexual exploration without a gender. I just, I marvel at the way that that would cultivate deep knowing, deep being with, deep belonging in your partnership. I imagine you must see that, the changes that happen in wider love, let's say, from taking this time to invest. Absolutely, because, you know, in relationship, our sex life is can become like a mirror for other things. And just like in a meditation practice, for instance, where you come and you sit day to day, and it reflects back to you where you're at in life, what's happening, it shows you your own psyche, your own spirit. Right. So, You know, a practice when you take it on in your intimate life can do the same thing. And you could learn and experience new things that then show, oh, are we attuned to each other today? what's the feeling of the connection between us? Uh, you know, what are our bodies wanting to express today? What are each of us needing today? Wow, we need slower than we went yesterday. Or today, we need more pressure. Like, life is intense and we need something really firm and holding. And, and not coming in with a formula. Not coming in with, uh, all the rules or expectations. But, uh, Meeting the moment just like we learned to do in mindfulness and yeah, that I mean, I, I really see that then affecting all of the relationship of a couple of when they learn to have that as a foundation in their practice. It also sounded like earlier you were referencing the idea that if, let's say for a woman, she can really inhabit her body in this full of a way, that the way that she then walks out into the world, the things that she creates, the way that her career, continues would be hugely impacted by that. Yes. I'm curious if there's a specific question around that because there's been a lot of talk in the space recently, particularly among actually coaches that describe themselves as embodiment practitioners, talking about the interrelationship between sexuality and manifestation. It's particularly talked about in modern tantra conversations, but I'm aware that even in using that word, we're extrapolating a lot from where those traditions first started. How, how do, how do you sit with this question around sexuality and manifestation and perhaps even manifestation in general? Is that something that you subscribe to? Uh huh. Uh, really glad you asked this because I, I, for me, what I would say is that when we come into sexuality, the idea of manifesting something with a goal is that we tend to put even more pressure on something that already has so much pressure on it, so much expectation. And now we're trying to use it in kind of a production oriented way. Now I want to produce something out of my sex. Versus it's about the moment and connection and aliveness that then may result just like when we sit on the cushion, we might get up and be so much more present, so much more alive, so much, so much greater capacity to meet our life. So, yes, there's an amazing result. Um. But, you know, our, our, our society right now has such an inclination to make everything into how to produce something, how to have like an economic impact. And it's like, wow. It's like, what if we take all of that off and say, You know, what I do know is that when we're nourished sexually, when we're nourished in our life force and allowing it to move just by nature, we're more open. You know, if you think of like, what's maybe one time in your life where you had an intimate experience that had you come alive, maybe it was a kiss or a touch, or maybe it was sex. And, and, and to think of how you walked through the world after that, did you feel more friendly? Did you feel more energized? Did you feel more creative? And. And, you know, did you feel more loving and and so yes, like, you know, when we tend to when we cultivate this aspect of ourselves that can result because also it's a natural energy that's kind of designed to move and when we allow it to move rather than packaging and containing it. More things move. But I would really invite people, please don't put an additional pressure on your sex life, on your intimacy. Um, let it show you. Let it show you, you know, and express through you. Yeah, it's that humility piece, isn't it? And it takes us right back to that question of presence. I mean, the other thing that I'm aware of is that when you are sexually embodied, you are magnetic. And so of course you would attract different opportunities and more attention. When you were asking those prompt questions of how did you feel the next day actually the statement that came up the first for me if I think about my first experience was I felt wanted for the first time and I never felt that before. Yeah. Very particular feeling. And it's very powerful actually. It's very powerful because if you think of how much of the time do people walk through the world feeling unwanted, unseen, undesired, excluded. And so, and, and I think what you're saying, tell me if I'm right, is that feeling it on a visceral level, not just through, I read a book, I have an idea, there's a beauty, I should feel that way, but it's like, Oh, I viscerally feel in my body what it's like to feel that. Yeah, it was the same as, uh, the first time that I looked at my then partner across the room and I had the thought spontaneously of, oh, I have a person. It was the same thing. So there is something really, as you say, visceral, palpable about, about those micro moments. And I would argue that especially, you know, we're recording this the day after some pretty significant news in the U. S. and globally, and there's a lot of opportunity to feel and talk about suffering right now. Um, and That is one binary lens of looking at human experience, and it's of course valid and important to honor, and I'm not discounting it. And I also feel that as a species, particularly if we work in this self development space, we have almost an ethical duty to remind people of the counterbalance, like you said. If I was to kind of cheekily ask you what your mission is, do you feel, what is that? It's clearly not to be a nun, and we're very glad about that. Not in, not in the traditional way, at least. So yeah, I would really say it's to invite people deeply, to support, to back, to walk with people to include all parts of themselves. To, to know, to viscerally experience, to invite in, to deeply know all parts of themselves. And so, and when we do that with ourselves, it's so much easier actually to be able to look out at the world and understand other people and, and to, to look out with eyes of compassion and wisdom because we're not having to manage and discount aspects of ourselves. And so, you know, and especially in the realm of intimacy, say like, wow, there, there is no matter where you are in life, what stage of life you're at, um, no matter who you are, like if there's some inclination in you to want to feel this, to want to know this, it is possible no matter where you're coming from or who you are or what you've been through, that this kind of aliveness is possible and that it can. deeply serve you. It can be deeply nourishing rather than being a source of suffering or pain or trauma or shame. It can actually be something that gives you aliveness. Well, and it sounds like in your personal experience, it's created a, a life for you. Yes, it has. It has. And it's, um, it's integrated my life. So my life doesn't have to be divided between, well, there's spiritual, and then there's all these other things that I have to handle. Or, you know, you know, kind of unfortunately deal with and instead it's like, well, there is a liveness. There is mindfulness. There is awakening available anywhere and, and especially here through this body and in my case, this woman's body. I love all of this. This has been such a fascinating conversation for me. Selfishly, everyone that's listening, I've been trying to seduce Justine onto the podcast. But it's been really, really rich. I'm curious if people want to find out a little bit more about your gorgeous work. Where would you have them go? What are you up to in the coming kind of six months? What's going on? So a great place to start would be going to my website, which is JustineDawson. com. And you'll see that, uh, the foundation of the work I do is deep dive one on one or a couple's work with people. And I love being able to go in there and have this exploration of what is driving you? What is the freedom you want? How do you liberate these shameful, fearful, stuck parts that we all have so that you can actually allow this? Energy of life to move through you in this alive way. Uh, I also do groups of women coaching. So, which are incredible to be in a group with other women online. So women from all over the world get together and they're intimate. There are about 10 women in each group, and to get to hear, wow, there's other women that feel the exact same way or going through very similar things and are saying things I've always felt, but always felt alone in. So those groups that I do, and they are usually run every few months. There's one in January coming up. And then I also have an online class series in the Mindful Bedroom. So what are some really both, um, how do we change our approach to intimacy, like we're talking about, and how do we sense and relate in a different way? And then what are some really practical ways that we can do that to actually cultivate this in ourselves and our relationships in our life. So, um, so all of that, or, you know, if you're on Instagram, you can, I have a lot of short videos and teachings on Instagram and that Instagram is Justine A. Dawson. So you can find me there. They're so fun. So I've obviously done a nice deep dive of, uh, of all of the resources available from you. Um, and actually the group containers look beautiful. I, um, I've seen a little bit of the detail of those and I can imagine just how supportive and nourishing that would be as an environment. Not least because until you shed light on something, you have no capacity to grow through it. Yeah. And I, I would say of the content that's on social, I, it makes me smile every time I see it because to a British eye, some of the, the, the, the sort of front pages, they're a little bit naughty, you know, it's, they're things that you wouldn't necessarily expect to land on. And then what's really beautiful is the descriptions and the, the thought provoking questions. There's such clarity for me that you are really interested in. The explorative quality that is available within sexuality, rather than like you've been talking about the sort of transactional nature of wanting to make it a thing, you're, you're getting people to get curious, which is in my book, the whole deal of being a human being, living a full life is get as curious as you can about what's here. And if that's one thing I would really invite people to take away from today would be how can you get curious about your own intimate life, your own sexuality, your own aliveness, and even give up some big goal of how it's supposed to look, but just start being curious and be like, wow, what would it be like? What, what might I be able to drop into in myself to start feeling, to start exploring? And taking one or two steps towards that, because that, that is the unfolding in that way, you know, um, we might have these huge ideas, but then in reality it's actually like in the simplest, in the lightest, you know, in, in this very intimate way that that's where it all, that's where it begins and ends really. It's a coming home. I really so value the opportunity to sit down with you. Um, and I'm going to leave it there. Listeners, please do take heed of that last little piece of guidance. And if you have any questions for me or Justine, just reach out and let us know. you in touch with her in all of the places and spaces. I send you love until our next recording. Gorgeous listeners. Thank you. So. So. much. For your ears. I hope. You enjoy today's. today's. episode. To find. More about our. Featured guests. Have a look in the show. Notes.