Finding Your Way Home; The Secrets to True Alignment

Episode 7 - Dr Bertice Berry

• Anthea Bell

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Gorgeous listeners, welcome to this week’s episode of Finding Your Way Home

On today's episode of FYWH, we’re joined by the unparalleled Dr. Bertice Berry  - Internationally-revered Sociologist, Public Speaker and prolific author. Not to mention, a woman of deep faith, heart and humanitarian commitment. 

Bertice's career and public message speak to the criticality of "living your message"; one of voice, authenticity and expansion beyond the limitations of belief, early childhood experience or the sense of "separated self". Her deepest learnings have come from her own experience - growing into heart-led leadership, navigating bereavement, the surprise adoption of her wonderful children and the humbling learnings of chronic pain.

In this inspiring listen, Bertice shares not only her own journey but her blueprint, garnered through decades in the field, on how to find the 'sound of the genuine' within you. How to open our self-esteem up by listening to and honouring that sound, allowing us to see past the negative self-stories we create day to day. 

What you'll hear is the story of a woman who is deeply connected not only to herself but, her community, her family, her "purpose" (the great "why") and ultimately, to life itself. 

A powerful and empowering episode - and a sign to break free from entrapment by the mind, into the fullness of who we can really be. 

To find out more about Bertice 

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Sending love, wherever this finds you.
  
 Anthea x

I often say that if your self esteem is too high or too low, it results in the same thing. You become self absorbed in something that does not serve anybody. And so it doesn't serve us for me to think that I'm not worthy of wherever I feel like I belong. And in terms of leadership. You know, the world requires our voices that they be heard and it requires that we mirror one another, giving us the strength and the courage and the light that we need. I can't do anything on my own.

Anthea:

welcome to Finding Your Way Home, the secrets to true alignment. I'm your host, Anthea Bell, movement teacher, mind body coach, and lifelong spiritual seeker. This is a podcast about the depth, weight, and profound healing power of connection between mind and body, spirit and soul, and from one human to another. Together with an incredible range of inspiring guests, we'll explore just what connection and alignment mean. How to get there in a world full of the temptation to conform, and how great challenge ultimately can lead to life changing transformation. Get ready for groundbreaking personal stories, conversational deep dives, and a toolkit of strategies to build not just your inner knowing, but your outer world. Let's dive in.

Oh, you lucky, lucky listeners. Welcome to a very special episode of Finding Your Way Home. I am sitting in front of Bertice Berry. an incredible sociologist, best selling author, award winning lecturer, PhD, storyteller ad infinitum. I first came across Bertice during lockdown and I was just sharing with her that some of the content that she produced during that time when everything was getting very dark and far too quiet for humanity that needs profound connection, that content for me moved me through that season. A little did I know that we would be sitting down with each other just now, all the way across the pond. Bertice, thank you so much for being here. Nathia, thank you for having me. And wow, does that warm my heart to know, because you know, you're just, you're just doing it. I started doing these stories for five people who were deeply depressed, and I didn't know that other people could. See the content because I didn't use social media that often. And it grew into this thing. And when you hear from folks who were not only moved, but encouraged to, to stay and to listen and to connect, um, you know, it, it gives me a sense of pride, but also it humbles me at the same time to realize that you're, you're not. Not only are you not doing anything in a vacuum, you're not doing it alone. Yeah. You never are. And my sense from everything that I've studied in terms of psychology and spirituality, like you talk about the science and the faith, is we're speaking of and to the collective all the time, if we choose. Yeah, yeah, it's an intentional choice to say, you know,=I'm an individual with a part to play in the collective. So there are times for us to pick up the individual responsibility and times to float with the collective. And I imagine that throughout time, we've probably been in spaces where, um, the collective felt so good, we forgot our individual roles. And at that point we were given the gift of the ego and we've probably shifted so far in the other direction where we think it's all about us and it never has been. Is that what you mean when you say blending science with faith? Is that access to something deeper? I think to be a woman of science and faith, it is really about creating this third thing, right? That science has its place and faith has its place. And when you combine them, it does take you someplace deeper. I just finished a book called, I think it's called, um, how God changes the brain or God and the brain something. It's written by an atheist and an agnostic who are neuroscientists and they say if you meditate on God because God is so expansive, it opens the brain, it opens the way you see because it's limitless. Yeah, you could do that with nature, but there's a point where you, you can't get any further with God. There's all those spaces and places that you cannot explain. When I was in graduate school, I would get frustrated when people would use the paradigms, the, the tools of the paradigm of faith to explain their religion. Um, you don't need to do that. You, there's religion here and science here, and if you walk into both. The same way at the same time, it opens you up to something new and it opens you to, um, you know, if you want to quantify, if you want to collect the stories, whatever, but the data is there that says it's both and. I love that so much. It strikes me when you're talking that really both of them are exactly the same. They're aiming to explain the mysterious. Yeah, just the best human way possible to encapsulate this bigger experience, which takes a lot of courage, I think, for people in a modern society to lean into rather than away from. Yeah, you know, I think about how much courage it took people like Darwin to lean into science At a time when faith was ruling, you know, and to, to lean into it with his faith. Um, I, I once took an advanced course in evolution cause you know, why not? And learned that Darwin was not under attack so much because of his science, but because of his faith and his belief that. Enslaved people should be free. So we're getting a visitor. Oh. We have a little, uh, we have a little three year old visitor. Ooh, look at that crown. Sweetheart. Hello. Hello. Would you No, would you like to go back and watch Moana? Yes. Okay. Oh, princess. Okay, precious. You are so precious. I will see you soon. Okay. See you soon. Yes. My granddaughter, my son had a, uh, he had a doctor's checkup from an emergency that happened last week. And, and so this was the time they could get it. And they said, can you, can you babysit for us? And I said, I think I can. I don't know if I can show you this. At the top of my crown mold. I have, you probably can't see it. It's carved into the crown molding, the Undinkra symbol that means love always finds its way home. And so finding your way home, uh, is, is kind of the theme of this house. And, you know, my five adopted kids and their, their kids and other people who find their way home here, um, you know, we're coming upon. Thanksgiving in the U. S. invite people who don't have any other place to go. So this is a place of finding home and it becomes just joyful and whatever happens is what's happening. So you were just explaining, Bertice this concept of finding your way home, and I'd love to know what, what does that mean to you? What's that meant in your story? In my story, finding a way home means that within all of us, there is the spark of the divine, and it is. It is the thing that gives us our own authentic voice, our authentic self. All the stories, we don't have one story, we are many stories, we are libraries of stories. And it is finding your voice. Um, Reverend Howard Thurman, who was the mentor to Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Um, said, within each and every one of us, there is the sound of the genuine. And you must always listen for the sound of the genuine, and you must find it. And if you don't find it, you will find yourself dancing on the ends of strings that someone else is pulling. Yeah. So finding a way home is finding a way to yourself. I don't think anything takes more energy than trying to be something you're not, trying to be somebody that you're not. And when you find who you are and your voice and your place, it is such an empowering gift, not only to you, but to everybody around you who needs your uniqueness. I'm curious what your experience of that was. For those that don't know you, I hope that everyone listening does. For those that don't, what was your pathway to that journey? Oh my goodness. It seemed direct to most people. In hindsight, I think people who knew me in elementary school and in high school and in college will all say to me now, you have always been this person you have always been. um, a light, an uplifter, a storyteller, a sociologist. You have always been encouraging and, you know, I don't know if it was that direct. I think for me, um, there were many, many angels along the way. Who helped support and guide and pull me into, I grew up in extreme poverty, grew up in the 60s and 70s in the poverty of the 20s, and extreme poverty, there was always somebody with this, you know, like, crazy weird wisdom out of the corner of the room, just guiding me, um, and, and preserving me for, for these times and for this calling and this path. And my granddaughter is one of them because, you know, there are times when you want to just, um, Say to yourself, this is, you know, I've done enough. I'm done. I can sit down and just enjoy my own life and my own self. But then you look and there's, you know, the three year old granddaughter saying, I want to go to your house. And so, you know, you say yes, and you, you open yourself to that. Yeah, you open yourself to the calling, right? I wonder sometimes, you know, I meet so many women particularly that struggle with, with believing that they have enough within them., to merit, a voice, to merit any kind of role within leadership. And I'm aware that a huge part of your work, not just, uh, is your writing, but it's also, you go into big corporations and you go into big communities and, and you speak to people about change and leadership and cultivating a better world. Yeah. So to the point of women, you know, feeling the, the right or any marginalized person who thinks, you know, I, I can't do this. I don't belong here. I often say that if your self esteem is too high or too low, it results in the same thing. You become self absorbed in something that does not serve anybody. And so it doesn't serve us for me to think that I'm not worthy of wherever I feel like I belong. And in terms of leadership. You know, the world requires our voices that they be heard and it requires that we mirror one another, giving us the strength and the courage and the light that we need. I can't do anything on my own. So somebody else is saying to me, you know, thank you for what you've been, what you do, how you are. And that's the thing that gets me up in the morning. In addition to an interesting life that changes by the second, I have multiple sclerosis and I cannot afford to waste my energy on anything that drains me from what I feel like I'm here to do. And it's been this really gift of, of a barometer. So, so in, in those roles of corporate leadership and, and you know, just dealing, sometimes dealing with conflict, which I love, absolutely love. I don't like chaos and mess and there's a difference. It's a big difference. Conflict is two ideas coming up against each other and, and, and how do we get to the best of all possible worlds? Mess is I really just want to have my way and I just want to win. And once you can move those things out of the way, you can see how to do the negation of the negation to get to the best of all possible worlds. Very often, the thing that's needed to get to the best of all possible worlds, I believe, is the voice of women recently was working with an appliance company, GE Appliances, and there were so many women in leadership because they recognized so many women use these products. Why would we market to, sell to, make for, manufacture to, and leave them out? And so as people are waking up to the need of our voices, we have to wake up in response and say, yeah, I'm not doing anybody any service by playing small. One of the best phrases that I was ever given when I was thinking about going into the realm of coaching was, your why has to be bigger than your fear. So you have to have a clear enough sense of your audience and the, the merit of the work that you're doing, that it allows the little self, the ego, self to dissolve. Yeah. Um, thinking about fear. Fear and hope don't live in the same vessel you know? And so when I ask, what am I afraid of? You know, I'm usually telling somebody else's story, and one of the things that I try to encourage people to do is to let go of the need to tell somebody else's story, because almost always their story about you is never flattering. you're imagining the worst. You're projecting the worst on someone who's never told you those things. And so then we, we build up this fear to protect ourselves from whatever might go on and to keep ourselves from in doing all of that, we've told a story that has nothing to do with the truth. And when we can tell our own story. We live a better life my story outside of, well, they probably think that I think that they think that I'm thinking all of that takes me away from, you can go in there and do a great job. It also takes you away from being able to hear the voice that's coming through, being able to hear what the message needs to be for that person in that moment. That is the bigger truth that if you cannot hear. The voice of the sound of the genuine, because you're so busy making up a narrative that has nothing to do with the truth. Could you, uh, Bertice, could you give us some examples Stories that you had to let go of in order to be able to do the work that you do in the world. Yeah, that I'm not, that I'm not good enough, that I didn't come from the right kind of, background, that I, that I wasn't a member of the club, that I, I may not be what people need, which is just silly because they called me. Like, like, they literally said, we need you, that I'm, too much that I'm too little that I'm too fat that I'm not strong enough. That I'm not pretty enough. And I will be honest with you, those things were gone like in my early 20s. Those silly things, um, that I'm too old, that I'm too, you know, there, there will always be a, you're not enough or you're too much of this., and nobody's telling you that, but you, most of the time, no one has ever said to my face, cause I think most of them are afraid to, you're too much. You may hear it echoed or, but the echo is usually you. Had to preach at a church on Sunday and it was, it was also their jazz liturgy Sunday. And so I said, Hey, uh, do you think they could play God Bless the Child? And go ask. No one said no. I was standing there going, is this weird? Is this crazy? Is this wrong? No one said that. They said more please. And I think as we try to pot ourselves down or tamper or dampen or all those things we do to ourself, put ourself in a box, we are denying, denying the world and denying God and denying the folks who need us to be a little bit more of us, because I give other people permission to be who they are. Somebody was, was, was hurt by something recently. And, and they said to me, you know, you, you're really good at complimenting people, but that is not helping right now. I don't compliment. I don't fly. I tell you what I see. If it sounds like a compliment, take it. I think we've gotten so accustomed to the negativity that when we hear good things, it's hard to hear. You were making me think, love, that, uh, in terms of how is it for us to receive, so much of the feedback that I get is that people on some level are afraid that if they're willing to receive, if they're willing to soak in the moments of joy and positivity and hope, that there'll be some kind of negative kickback. A repercussion. And it's fascinating because on the basis of that fear, the majority of people cut themselves off from joy, from pleasure. It's almost like we can't hold the duality that there's both joy and suffering, but we get both. We don't just have to live in the steady middle. Absolutely Absolutely. And they're happening sometimes at the same time, sometimes right after the other. Sometimes you get a little bit of a respite from the suffering. Sometimes you get a respite from the joy. They exist. And that feedback of, oh, there may be one person who doesn't, they're hearing through the filter of their understanding and our job is to help clean that filter so that they can receive what they need to receive. We will all suffer. We will all have moments of things, um, you know, that are not going the way we desire. I knew what my day was going to look like last night. And then this morning it changed. Or actually last night it began to change. It was like, Oh, no, we need you to come to a meeting downtown at 1030. And then we need you to do this. And then you've got to do this. And I said, you know what, I could fit them all in and they will all work.. What does it do, but say life happens did you always know that family was something that you really wanted to invest in? Absolutely not. No. I wanted a knapsack on my back and the song Valerie Valera in my ear. I wanted no children, no marriage, no nothing. Um, and one day my mother called and said my sister's three children were in danger of going into foster care, that I was going to have to take them. And then two other children smelled children on me and then more and more. And every time I think You know, I'm the sports car that I was driving. I look up and realize I'm, I'm a van and it's okay. No, it was, it was not my plan. It was, I mean, I would not even go on a date. I said, I don't want to see anybody until I have a PhD. and then when I do, I'm just going to soar into my life. And I was just beginning a nationally syndicated talk show when I got the children. And so, um, no, it was not my plan. It's what is, and it is wonderful. And I realized many moments in the day that I realized, were it not for this kind of grounding, there were other calls that I would not have accepted. There are so many things the way I do the work that I do the writing that I do, you know, people used to say, gosh, you, you. Publish a book every year. What inspires you to write? And I'd go, tuition. But it was also this thing that allowed me to leave the chaos of five young children who were all close in age to, to tap into this ancestral voices that were calling me to write, literally calling me to write. That would not have happened. I would not have answered the call to become an ordained deacon in the Episcopal Church. I would not have answered the call to go back to church. I would not have answered the call to share stories online or to get up every day and do it. I would not have answered the call to most of the things that I do that I find so nurturing. Like, you know, I have a thing at my house on the weekends, dinner and a doc, where we, I cook a homemade meal and we watch a documentary together and discuss it. I love this. I, it's fantastic. We hit pause in real time and discuss. And I picked the documentary because I cook the food and the documentary can be anything from race to raising show chickens. It's marvelous. And these young professionals who started coming and then would bring their friends. And we've had marriages out of this group. We have a baby coming soon. We've had people who have found their purpose and career path. We've had mentoring and it's just, it's delicious. all walks of life, all faith, no faith, you know, joy, you know, anguish. I've been to funerals of grandparents who like, I ended up doing the funerals and I'm like, how did I get up here? Why am I here? But they'll say, you know, you're the most spiritual person we know. Will you lead this thing? Will you guide this thing for us? And of course I will, but, but it's out of just this opening my heart to my children and expanding their life and their hearts and, and so the doors swing open in all directions. But if it weren't for the grounding, I mean, I love to travel, I'm fortunate that my work allows me to travel, but I wouldn't, there would be no reason to have, maybe I'd have a small apartment somewhere, but I wouldn't need to have a home. I would just go. I would just go, and I know that about myself, but this has grounded me in a way that connects me to community, to learn how to connect others to community. I think it's one of the most underrated avenues for healing that there is. In fact, I think it's probably the most. sustained form of healing that you can have. Yeah, uh, community and creativity. And they so often go hand in hand, is the thing. They absolutely go hand in hand. Even the things I do alone, I, you know, I make all of my clothes, I had a head injury and suddenly could sew, out of nowhere. design, so I've never used a pattern. I just look at the fabric and I go, what do you want to be? And then I make something, but it's not something until I wear it out the door. So, um, and, and it was community. The first time I made something, I hand stitched it because I didn't know how to use a machine. And I wore it the next day and people were like, you look so good. What did you do? And I made my dress. Give me a hug, and now it'll fall apart, but it was, it was the, that my community's response to that, that encouraged me to continue in that. So I think there are some things you can do alone, but you still need the love of the community to support it and to see it and to nurture it. In, um, in, for those that are listening, in addiction recovery, which is a, an area that I've spent a lot of very nourishing time, um, they very often say that the opposite of addiction is connection. And that mantra is spoken again and again and again, and one of the other things that you're told very early on is that a big part of the problem when anyone has any kind of addictive leaning in that could just be towards addiction. the thinking of your mind or your identified self. It's this feeling of the hole in the soul. It's like there's a, there's a gap, there's a cavity in here somewhere. And somewhere along the line, I've forgotten that there is a way of filling it that doesn't involve harming myself. And I don't think it was until, gosh, I have goosebumps saying this. I don't think it was I sat in a recovery room, which is 10 years ago now, That I'd ever felt a feeling of belonging, the physical, it's a physical feeling. It's not, it's not anything that you can even particularly give words to, but I knew like the grounding you're describing, I knew I was home and I knew that we were all there for the same collective purpose, which is things are really tough and we are dedicated to making them better for everyone involved, for the whole collective. That is It is the absolute truth. Uh, I was just discussing this today because I'm giving a Sunday school class lesson forum on belonging. And I said, yeah, I'm going to need the monitor because I have to illustrate it. It's, it's hard to put to words. And I illustrate it with the symphony playing a piece of music, a jazz busker who plays in the street playing the same music. And then the symphony has invited this busker to come and play with them. And so you see together, they get to be them. She gets to be her and together they become so much more. And then they affect the audience. That is participating and watching. And so the sense of belonging means it requires diversity of people and thoughts and ideas and ways, but a common purpose, a common mission goal drive to something. And a hope that you can get there, that you can one day get there and coming together that way around, around that thing with all of your stuff I've created this internal diversity assessment, because too often we talk about the diversity across the room, when the diversity has to also permeate the person, and it only happens in communities of belonging. Where I get to drag and pull and learn and go, Oh me too. I want some of that. I need that for my soul. I need your quiet resolve. I need your steadfastness. I need your light. I need your joy. And these are things that were always in me that I wanted to feed, but I didn't recognize them until I saw it in you. And that community does that. We know without a doubt that people live longer, healthier lives in community. That recovery sticks in community. We know it. And yet, you know, we, we want to retreat back to our mind. It's not even me or I, it's mine. It's the landscape of what is familiar. It's the landscape of control. very easy. And in some moments. trancing to get trapped in the stories again. And they reverberate with our own voices and they're very convincing. And there's so much more, like you're saying about welcoming the kids into your life. It's like the universe is saying, no, you, you can hold more. No, you're a people carrier. You're, you're literally that now in every symbolic sense of that phrase. It's hilarious. I got three children at once on the same day. It's like, you're going to just let me take them? And the baby was three months old. Who's coming to make sure I do this right? Nobody. You'll get it. It's amazing to, to find that we all have capacity for more. This is such a beautiful point, Bertice and one of the things that I wanted to ask you is how important it feels for you to be willing to try it before you know how there's a lot of perfectionism that circulates around the sphere that says, I'm gonna practice all of these skills before I make myself in any way public and. I, I wonder for you about the balance between doing your research, because that's obviously such a core part of how you've moved into the scholarly world, but also being willing to test it and see. So I met my Uber driver, Abdullah, last week, and he said, I'm a practicing Muslim. And I said, I like that. I'm a practicing Christian. And taking on that allowed me to see that I'm, if you're, if you're practicing it, it's okay to, to not get it right every single time. And I, I mean, I, I spend most of my day in silence, most of it. If I'm speaking somewhere, I, I'm, I'm alone. Very often I won't even turn on music, which I love. And I'll sit in silence. And so I'm reading, I'm researching, I'm, I'm, but I'm only, I know that I'm only looking for more because I'm a geek and I like it and it feeds me and it nourishes me and it may end up being a half of a sentence of, of a thought of a something. Um, and, and, and, and I'm always leaving room for spirit to say, this is the piece that that person over there in the corner absolutely needs. and no one else. And you have to be willing to be open as a vessel for somebody that you don't know. So when I share these stories in the morning and I think, where'd that story come from? it's true, but why did that come up today? It makes no sense. And then you hear from thousands of people who say, Oh my God, you're talking to me. You have to be willing to You know, I think especially women, to not be such perfectionist about what you're presenting and so that you can go ahead and present it. We will wait and wait and wait and wait and wait. I know I learned this more when I was learning to sew. And, and it literally was just a gift. I'd never used a pattern. I folded something some kind of origami way. I cut it. I was afraid to cut it. I was like, this fabric is too precious. Well, so are you cut it. And, and, and then the crazy to wear something that I made. that I knew was not perfect, that, that was hand stitched and the finishing wasn't great, and it wasn't, and every time I do it, and there are some people who pick and they go, but what about this, and look at this, and you should have done this, and you could have done that. And I've learned that they are working out those things in themselves. It has nothing to do with what I've presented, It's about their need to control something and that's okay. And if I give them the opportunity to do that, I'm okay with that. And, and I can say back to them, was it, isn't it cool that just six years ago, I didn't know how to do anything like this. And now I only wear clothes that I make and I make coats for people who don't have homes and they live on the street and I make sure that, and I just gave away my cashmere shawl that I just made to this woman and she looks so good in it. Isn't that great? You let go of that need to control. Everything because everything for every need, there is a purpose and for every purpose. There is a need. But if you are trying to control every aspect of it, where, when do you release it to the need? Gosh, that is profound. It's, um, it's reminding me of that idea that really our job only ever is to do this half of the footwork. So you, you, you show up, you invest, and then you, you let the rest be taken care of. You let go of the outcomes. And that is the land of faith. Do your best in the present right now, which is all that you've got. You haven't got the future. You just have now. So there was a lecturer, um, at our church last week, a historian, um, Michael Thurman, and he'd written a book on James Oglethorpe, who was the founder of Georgia. And he comes over from England, and he's got this idea, and he releases these, you know, people who are debtors to society, and he's going to put them in this colony, and he's going to do these things. And he'd gone from being a, um, slave trader to an abolitionist. And so Michael Thurman had gone to the church, St. Peter's, somewhere in some little village where he was buried. And there's a plaque on the wall that says, you know, he, he graduated from he was a general. He's the founder of Georgia. And He was friend of the oppressed Negro. And Michael Thurman, who's this black representative says, I'm sure I'm the first black person to go there from Georgia to see this and what it meant to me. And he's standing in our church, which was founded the day Georgia was founded. So it's the Mother Church of Georgia, originally Church of England. Um, and it's, This church that he's standing in and he's telling this, and out of nowhere, these protesters who were protesting something that happened four miles from where we live, and has nothing to do with anything that's going on that night, they start yelling from up in the balcony. And one of the things that I do not do well is steps. But something within me jumped up, and it's a packed house of other historical, history buffs. And I somehow get up these steps and I look at these young people and I'm like, no, not here today. And I know I was not on their bingo card. I was not. And then I hear from down below more screaming and yelling. And I just out of nowhere, loudly sing amazing grace. And others join in and then we take them out and we usher them out. And there's this amazing grace going on. And somebody said, how did you know to do that? And I said, that's what abolitionists did. Whenever hooligans or people were, they were under attack, they would sing this song that was the anthem of abolitionists. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. John Newton, who had also gone from slave trader to abolitionist, this is his song. And so they would sing that song. I had to study that at some point to know that, to have that be in me, but then I had to be willing to be the person in this packed house that's crazy enough to just sing it. And somebody said, how did you have the presence of mind? I didn't. I had heart. And I had love in my heart for the people who were there for the presenter for this long arching story of history for the sacred space. And even for those young folks who, you know, I ran after and said, ran, as we use loosely, um, and looked at him and said, listen to me, don't you never come up in here no more. And they looked and said, yes, ma'am. And I said, I'm sorry, you can come back. You got to act better. But where does that come from? I don't know. It's never happened to me before. I've never done anything like that before. I've probably broken into song when people are disruptive, but not in a setting like that. If we put enough love in our heart, love will come forth. I'm sitting here just reflecting on how lucky I am to have the opportunity to sit down with people who, I mean, increasingly it feels like the conversations that we're having on this channel They are nourishment to the soul. And I was reflecting as you were talking, you know, I wonder what it was that called you to, to become a deacon. when was that call and what was moving through you then? You know, it, the irony of that, I had a friend who was going, he's like a brother, he was going through a terrible divorce. And he said, will you come and sit in the courtroom with me and just pray? He lives about six, seven hours away. I said, I'll be there. And I realized once I was there that throughout his marriage, he had been going through a really horrific experience that he had not revealed, that he had not talked about, that he had not tried to, um, you know, win sides or favor with. He needed someone to be a witness. And so I went and then I went back again and went back and it dragged on forever and, and I would just get in the car and go and sit there and pray and, and one of those trips, I heard there's more for you. There's more work for you. And I remember driving home going, Really? More? How can there be more? Look at this. Can there be more? And so I just said, well, you know, I'm going to fast and pray for him. And so I went on this period of fasting and prayer and, you know, I grew up in a Pentecostal church and so fasting is, you know, we Episcopalians, we fast between meals, but Pentecostal folks, you know, day and night. And I was on day 25 day fast. And my rector called and said, I'd like to come meet you for coffee. You know, I didn't, nobody knew I was fasting. I said, sure. So I went there and, um, he said, I just need to talk to you. I keep feeling in my spirit. Um, this thing that keeps saying there's more for you. There's more for you to do and maybe there's a call and I was like, yeah, and he said, well, you should go and pray about it. And I said, no, no. And I got up and walked away from him and he said, are you okay? And I said, yeah, I'm going to get a croissant because clearly. If the rector has to come and get me, it's time for me to just go ahead and eat. I give up. So, so, and then, you know, in, in our, in our faith, um, in our denomination, we, you go into a period of discernment with you and your congregation. with you and your rector, with you and your bishop, and then you go into a period of discernment with a committee, a community of people, which is just lovely. And I had already started doing the stories. We were in the pandemic. People were in a room with masks on and they're sitting and, you know, they'd ask a question and then they'd nod and pray and you know, you don't know what's happening. So you're there like, what is this? And one night this woman said, I think there's something to this story thing that you've been sharing. I think there's your ministry may be around helping people find their stories. And that night I got home and I had a letter from a woman who said. She thought she had been lost. She was lost to herself. And she didn't believe she had any more purpose and any more place. In me telling my stories, it was waking up the stories within her. And not only did she know she had a place, she had a purpose and she had more work to do. And so I said, yeah, maybe, maybe there's something to this. And out of that, the Institute for Story was created. We have conference every year. Um, I'm called into corporations to do story work with teams I do it online with people, I can have a thousand people online and then, you know, the chat is lit up. I'm over here crying. Oh my goodness. How did it go so deep? How did I connect to everyone this quickly? We are neurologically wired for our narratives and it's the thing we don't share. You're making me smile because the last person I interviewed on the podcast is a professional speaker who specializes in helping people to learn and tell their story. And in the group program that I run which is primarily for women trying to get from the head to the heart, one of the biggest themes is how do I distinguish between a feeling and a story and how do I let go of the stories that don't serve and tell the ones that do. Thank you. We're in the right place, my love. Definitely in the right place. The 13 inch journey, um, from the head to the heart, uh, is what I was on when something said, make a dress. I had fallen and had a really bad head injury. And my head, I could not think, I could not process, I could not, you know, I had a window of like an hour and a half and couldn't remember anything, I couldn't do anything. And you know, I heard, well, your heart's smarter and move to your heart. And so this whole thing began to open up through, through that, and what a gift it was. And I, and we don't have to knock ourselves upside our head to move to our heart. Um, the Hicks's, uh, in the astonishing power of emotions say, you know, our emotions serve to let us know when we're going in the wrong direction, if we're feeling what we don't want to feel. Drop your oars. You're rowing upstream and everything you want is downstream. Drop your oars. And it is the hardest thing to do until you do it. And then when you do, um, I learned several things when you judge another person's story, it's how you're judging yourself. And so I pay attention to that. When I stop telling somebody else's story, Then I can hear mine more clearly and that most people are not hiding behind hatred or anger, or they don't like me. They're walking around with as much shame as I have. And it's only when we look at each other, truly look at each other and see one another that we're able to put down that shame so that we can see who we really are and our own stories. come forth and they just, you can't stop them. You, you use this phrase beautifully, um, in some of your writings about how important it is to do your own personal healing, that that's where it starts and that that has the power to then shapeshift the perspective and the lives of other people. And it sounds as though you're speaking to that. Yes, yes. there's no better work than the work that you do on yourself and every step you take towards wellness You're taking the world with you. I love that. I'm curious, I'd love to talk to you about writing., About what that means to your heart. And I wonder if it's the same as what you were describing that, um, when you were looking at the fabric, you asked the fabric, what does it want to be? And then you listen. Yeah, um, I'm sure that's it. I grew up as a child hearing, um, hearing, not actual voices. But something within and, and I had a knowing, you know, that, that family members recognize and the elders certainly recognized, but I hated it. It made me feel not of this world, a little crazy, a little, however you define it. I didn't like it at all. And it was, I was, I was, in Bahia in Brazil. And, you know, I had, I had become this rational scientist enough to keep the voices at bay. You know, I taught statistics and sociology and I can be this rational person. And when I was in Bahia, it was as if something unclogged my ears and I was hearing again and seeing, and I would just say things. And I had an interpreter who would interpret And people would say, how does she know this? She just, she doesn't know me. How does she know this? And I don't even know what I'm saying, but I'm saying it. All of those unsettling feelings were back. And I just, I remember saying, I cannot, God, I cannot live this way. I cannot. give me a way to live. And that night I dreamt a story and I had a reoccurring dream of going in a cave and an old ancient woman would take me around and I'd see all these things that were invented or being invented and throughout time I'd see the same dream. And she took me all the way to the bottom and she said, this is what you're here for. And it took years for I, before I could recognize what the here for was. And it was story. And my stories and the stories of others and waking up these stories. And so I woke up from this dream with a story and I wrote it. And I said, that's what I'll do. I will write. And I'll make a deal with you ancestors. If you leave me alone in the day, we'll write at night. And I said, when I get back, I'm going to find a literary agent. Like that's how it was done. Like, I didn't know. I didn't know. I think you have to have a literary agent. I'm going to find one and I'm going to write books. I had no idea. I come back and I've got a stack of messages, because I've been gone about a month. And the top message was from a literary agent who had read something that I, articles that I did, had done for the Chicago Tribune and the Women News section. And she said, call me, you should be writing. And I did. And I had a really big book deal. Before I had even written a word. And so I knew that this was this, there's this wonderful Arabic proverb. It's echoed in the alchemist. When a person seeks their purpose, the universe conspires to make it happen. Oh, I've got goosebumps again. And so that's what happened. And so now, you know, I'm, uh, I'm waiting on a deal for something that is, you know, pretty much done. Um, and I'm, I started writing this other book I can't write when it's not there. I'm not that person that sits four hours a day because edit writing is rewriting and rewriting and rewriting, and it makes the edit harder. When I force myself to write, but when I can hear, I don't know where the story's going. I don't know what character will show up and how it's taken away and I allow that to be and it is exactly as it needs to be every single time. Yeah, you're happy swimming around in the unknown, which is the space of love and joy and creativity and spirit. Yeah, yeah, it is comfortable, and it is good, and it is scary, and it is life. Yeah, it is life. It is life. Oh my gosh, this has been such an honour, honestly, from the bottom of me to you. I am so touched that you're here with us. I'm gonna lovingly liberate you to your little one, but I would love to ask you for just any closing words for anyone that's listening. What do you feel called to share? Um Everything is so connected From future right back to the past I am all that I connect to Without you I won't last You are me and I am you Together we become Alone I am so empty Parts, they make the sound. Cause when you cry, I feel it. Way down in my heart. And when you laugh, you know I need it. That's where our own must go. start. We are here for just this reason to see love's will be done on earth. That's to love without condition and to share each other's worth. Oh. Bertice Berry, what an honor to have you. Thank you so much for joining us. And there's no need to get any kind of royalty rights. Cause I wrote it. We will bear that in mind. Sweetheart, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You are a joy, you are a light, and I will be calling on you to be a part of something that I'm doing. I don't know, but you've got to come across the pond and hang out with us. I am there right now. Honestly, my dream is to go to the States. That's where I feel really called, interestingly. Yeah, you will not have to convince me. Um, enjoy your next dinner and documentary evening. We will be doing one here and we will speak soon. Okay. Yes, we will. Thank you. I love you. I love you too. Gorgeous listeners. Thank you. So. So. much. For your ears. I hope. You enjoy today's. today's. episode. To find. More about our. Featured guests. Have a look in the show. Notes.