Cake Therapy
Cake Therapy is a heartwarming and uplifting podcast that celebrates the transformative power of baking therapy. Hosted by Dr. Altreisha Foster, the passionate baker, entrepreneur and advocate behind Cake Therapy, this podcast is a delightful blend of inspiring stories, expert insights and practical baking tips. Each episode takes listeners on a journey of self-discovery, emotional healing and connection through the therapeutic art of baking.
Cake Therapy
Books as a Bridge to Mental Wellness: Emely Rumble's Journey with Bibliotherapy
After weathering the storm of the COVID-19 pandemic alongside her autistic son, Emely Rumble discovered the remarkable healing potential of literature. As a seasoned psychotherapist and bibliotherapist from New York City, Emely turned her personal challenges into a professional mission, creating Literary NYC to champion the transformative power of books. Through her personal story, she offers a touching perspective on the complexities of recognizing neurodivergence in children and navigating the hurdles of early intervention during a global crisis.
Listeners will uncover the innovative world of bibliotherapy, where literature meets mental wellness. Emely shares her method of the "three Ps": presenting problem, preferences, and book prescription, which allows her to tailor book recommendations to each client's needs. From combating the stigma surrounding autism to fostering authenticity in children, Emely discusses how literature like Bell Hooks' "All About Love" can promote self-love and community building. As she ventures into the spiritual dimension of bibliotherapy through bibliomancy, Emely provides insights into how this unique approach bridges the intellectual and spiritual, resonating deeply with clients' experiences.
Emely's journey extends beyond therapy, as she dedicates herself to empowering women, particularly women of color, to pursue their passions without sacrificing family commitments. Her upcoming book, inspired by personal experiences of grief and loss, further illustrates her commitment to using storytelling as a tool for healing. This episode offers a profound exploration of how personal narratives and literature can enrich the therapeutic process, leaving a lasting legacy for future therapists to inspire and empower their communities.
Mindful Moment: Cooking connects us to ourselves. Each meal is an invitation to care, to nourish, to be kind.
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Welcome to the Cake Therapy Podcast a slice of joy and healing, with your host, Dr Altricia Foster. This is a heartwarming and uplifting space that celebrates the transformative power of baking therapy. The conversations will be a delightful blend of inspirational stories, expert insights and practical baking tips. Each episode will take listeners on a journey of self-discovery, emotional healing and connection through the therapeutic art of baking. There's something here for everyone, so lock in and let's get into it.
Speaker 2:All right. Hi everyone, Welcome back to the Cake Therapy Podcast with me, your host, Dr Patricia Foster. So today's conversation is going to be super exciting. This conversation is really personal to me because she's been my virtual buddy for over the past year and a half or so and I've been watching this lady work in her space and I'm really excited to share her with you. And this week it's going to be a little different. We're not talking about cakes but, as promised that we were going to talk about other modalities besides cake therapy people who are doing work that is not only talk therapy, and I did mention in my lead up to this podcast that we're going to have people who are using literature as a form of therapy. And today our guest is out of New York. It's Emily Rumble. Hi, Emily, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm excited and I know our listeners will be excited, as you know, when, when they dive into this conversation. So a little bit about Emily is that she's a psychotherapist, a bibliotherapist. She's a licensed social worker, over a decade of work out in New York City. Her professional interests are trauma-informed therapy, racial trauma recovery, grief and loss recovery, bibliotherapy, poetry therapy and neurodiversity-affirming therapy. Oh my God, em Welcome to the podcast. Tell me a little bit about all those things that I've talked about. Neurodiversity, affirming therapy Like what's that? Break that thing down for us?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so really it's about honoring different neurotypes. You know, I think there's been a big shift happening in our culture around understanding what diversity is ADHD, autism, dyslexia, just the different ways that neurotypes present and how it affects, you know, learning behavior and things like that. And so for me, I started off my career as a school social worker, so really honing in on that early intervention piece, identifying children early who were maybe neurodivergent or had disabilities and needed some early intervention. And now, as a mom, my son, who is five years old, the love of my life he's actually autistic as well. So it's a unique experience to have gone from serving children and families directly in the school system to now having my own experience as a mother, and it's really opened my eyes to so many things, you know, and so I'm always learning and trying to turn key over what I'm learning on my journey into my work as a clinician who supports families as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me ask this for Tandis as well. Yeah, let me ask this. So when you discovered that your beautiful baby boy was autistic, did you approach it from a similar, I would say, how personal was this for you, this journey, and did you feel like you now had the tools to be able to take this on? Talk to me a little bit about that.
Speaker 3:My goodness, it was emotional for me because it was 2020. So here in New York City, it was the height of the pandemic. We're isolating at home. I was pregnant, I had just given birth to my daughter, and so trying to keep a newborn baby safe at home in the midst of COVID and we're still learning about how it spreads and how to stay safe my son, all of a sudden, is showing signs. You know that he's autistic, and so just advocating for the evaluation was difficult, because early intervention agencies were. You know, they weren't providing evaluations in the home. Everything was virtual at that time. It was also difficult because there were so many wait lists, and so I found myself.
Speaker 3:I found that my social work bills came in handy because I knew, you know, calling the list. I had a particular set of information and skills to navigate the system, to make sure. No, my son, even his pediatrician didn't believe me at first. Let's give it another year, another six months, and see what happens with this speech, because he was developing too. And then at two, he just stopped speaking. There were other signs, like he was a big stoner, he would spin in circles, he would clap his hand. So I just started noticing things and no one really believed me. So I was the one to call early intervention, I was the one to get him on wait lists. Um, it was very emotional because at that time I'm postpartum, I'm trying to figure out what to do with my career. I know I'm not going to be able to go back to working in schools because now I have two children. You know the world is drastically changing and I'm going to have to like pivot my career. So that's really where.
Speaker 3:Literary NYC was born from. Was this need to still work while ensuring that my child, who's autistic, gets the services and therapies she needs. Right Is able to be at home with mom where I can keep her, you know, safe in the midst of this worldwide pandemic?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was very emotional, I know, I bet. Isn't it amazing, though, how these little beings come in and just change the entire trajectory of our lives. I mean I was nice and happy living in my science world. These little beings come in and just change the entire trajectory of our lives. I mean I was nice and happy living in my science world, and then here comes this little girl that literally digs up all this trauma that I experienced as a child right and then Talk about it and daughters, daughters hit differently for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they do the marriage between a mother and daughter.
Speaker 3:You've got to hear, you've got gotta do the work to heal, because if not your relationship with your dog will be overstimulating. It will be very difficult for you, you know, to raise a strong-minded little girl, little girl in this world if you have not done the work of healing your own child. So I agree yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But then the thing is, though how do we now step in the roles of advocating for others, so that they can now recognize these small changes in their moods, their environment and their own children that can really be deleterious to them in the long term?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question and it's one that I'm constantly asking myself, especially as the world is changing and parents are raising children in more isolation. For me, it's really been about education, educating, public education. So I love that I can have an online presence through Literary NYC, because it allows me not only to share therapeutic insights in the modality of bibliotherapy and how I'm using this in my psychotherapy practice, but also my personal journey. So I do share a lot, maybe too much, because I'm starting to feel like social media can be a strange place and I'm reconfiguring my own boundaries around it. But for the purpose of community and serving my community, I do share a lot about my motherhood journey, about the difficulties that I have in, you know, finding accessible services, affordable services, because I just because I'm a therapist doesn't mean that I don't have the same challenges navigating these systems. I certainly do.
Speaker 3:While I do have privilege because I've got education and I've got some insider knowledge working in these systems, I'm still impacted by these systems in the same way and I'm still raising a Black boy who's autistic in this world that is very able to live and very dangerous, especially for our boys of color.
Speaker 3:So, you know, I try to focus on that education piece and just be as transparent as possible about my journey so that people can reduce their sense of shame. I think there's a lot of shame that comes in this experience and even like personally, you know, not even through my public platform, but on my personal Facebook, that's for family and friends. I remember when I shared that my son was autistic, I had so many people Dr Custer reaching out oh my God, and I didn't know he was autistic. I had so many people, dr Carson, reaching out oh my God, em, I didn't know he was autistic. My child was autistic too, and these are people who I went to high school, with college with, who are in my family system, who I never knew that their child was autistic because they didn't share that they didn't feel comfortable sharing it.
Speaker 3:And so that really opened my eyes, because then that gave me an opportunity to say, hey, if you're an early intervention agency here, here's a list you know of places to call. Here's some information on the different ways autism can present and the different levels of you know of functioning that might occur for your child. And that really opened my eyes because I'm like, wow, we really have to start with education and educating our communities on noticing the signs and then how to go about seeking support.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And kudos to you because I do recognize that it's not just in our community. It's like in the world, you know what I mean when people view illness as a secret. It's something that you keep a secret. It's something that looks bad on the family and it's that generational trauma that's passed down Like it's like life used to be all about a secret. You know you don't want anything to make your family not look good or be presented in that kind of light. So I'm kudos to people who step into that light and say, yes, this happened, um, so that's a good thing yeah, absolutely, and that's how we help others, you know, by.
Speaker 3:I had a friend who shared that. She said something like nobody is helped by our silence. I remember, remember that all the time. I carry that with me whenever I feel like I don't really. It's too vulnerable, it's too I don't want to go there, you know, I remind myself of that. I'm like no, even if it helps one person for me to speak the truth and share my testimony, it's worth it.
Speaker 3:It's worth it because we live in a world where, like you said, people are so worried about their image and, you know, not wanting to look bad or not wanting to appear a certain way, and we end up living as performance and life shouldn't be about performance, it should be about connection. You know life is short and especially when you're raising children, responsibility and a duty to our children, you know, just to support them and to get the support that they need. And I think the stigma with diagnosis is so real and, let's be honest, like there is a stigma, a stigma does exist, but as a parent, we can get ahead of that by educating ourselves, by helping our children, you know, as a protective factor, understand who they are and how they are. I tell my son every day you're autistic. It means that mind processes the world differently. But that can be a beautiful thing, because guess who else is autistic? And I'll show him other people. You know, like Quest, love is autistic. A lot of people don't know that he's a genius. Oh my goodness, quest is something special.
Speaker 3:You know what? I mean a lot of people reading it, but he's not going around denying it either. So I feel like that's how we get ahead of the stigma by celebrating difference, not treating it as if it's something to be afraid of, you know yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The more we talk about I think, the more we normalize it also Because, like you said, like life is so performative, Like can you just imagine just going through the rest of your life? I could understand, like when we were young girls, you know we had to keep up, keep this image. But then now we are influencing children. You know which is impacting children. Just performing is just not, you know it impacts children. Just performing it's just not. You know it's not beneficial to anyone. So, Em, you heal through books. How do you really, how do you make your book recommendation and what was the last book you recommended?
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that, so I always call it the three Ps. I write about this in my book Real Theory in the Bronx.
Speaker 3:It's coming out April 2025 with Real House Publishing because I wanted to share a little bit of my personal story but also help therapists think about. They want to integrate this into their practice. So for me it's the three Ps. The first thing that I consider is my client's presenting problem. Why are they coming to therapy? What is the question that they're holding in their heart in this season of their life? What is it that they're wrestling with or challenged by or asking themselves about who they are and who they're becoming and what they want in this current season? So I always start with the presenting problem and as therapists we know that sometimes a client will come to therapy saying that it's one problem, but really it's like the tip of the iceberg and there's like all this other stuff. But we always start with what the client is reporting. So presenting problem and then the client's preferences. I want to know a little bit about my client. So one assess if biblical therapy is a modality that would work for them, because it's not an approach that would work for everybody.
Speaker 3:But if they do read, reading, or they do enjoy poetry, spoken word, the written word, then we can talk about their preferences as a reader. So what do they like to read? Who are their favorite authors and why? What's the last book that they read that made them cry? Because a bibliotherapist is always trying to assess how to elicit emotion. We want emotions to come to surface, we want you to get real, we want you to have a feeling response.
Speaker 3:So I love that question and I have a reading that they can always purchase from my practice as well if they need help with this, because I think it's important to kind of recognize, like, what's the last book that you read that made you cry? Because it's all about the right book at the right time. You could have read a book your senior year of high school that you loved and it was emotional for you, but you were at a different time and you're like I want the last book that made you cry right now. And then, what are maybe some triggering themes that you avoid in literature? That's really important to sort of understand a client's reading preferences in terms of what they do not read, what they stay away from, any new trend, like I have this trend right now at Literapy that I'm loving of working with a healthy black women who are reading romance or some even reading erotica, and I love it.
Speaker 3:I had a client the other day. She's 64, she said have you ever done erotica in BiblioJersey? And I could tell she was a little bit embarrassed. I said you do not have to be embarrassed. You want to read erotica, let's read. Know what do you want to read? Because I love that. I'm like what? 65 years sitting here thinking about your sensuality and reclaiming that part of yourself, and I'm here for that, you know. So it's presenting problem preferences and then book prescription. Those are my three P's. So, using all of the information that I've gathered from you about where you're at in your life, what questions you're asking yourself if you like to read, where you're at in your life, what questions you're asking yourself if you like to read, now I'm going to make a book prescription for you that I feel will address the current question that you're holding.
Speaker 2:So those are my keys Good, okay, what was your latest, your last recommendation?
Speaker 3:My last recommendation was actually All About Love by Bell Hooks. I recommend that book a lot, not just to women, I recommend it to everybody, because I feel like she does such a great job of really breaking down what love is, what love means and the importance of self-love before we seek out love and validation inside of ourselves. And so that's a book that I just adore, and we're discussing it because I have a free book club on Fable Readers who Run the Wolves, and it's a romance book we're reading this Could Be Us by Kennedy Ryan, and in this beautiful story the woman ends up, you know, being betrayed by her husband. She's going through a divorce, and so one of the ways that she reclaims her sense of self is to build community for herself. She starts a book club and that's the book that they're reading. It's all about love by Bell Hooks. So everybody in the book club was like oh you know, maybe we should read this next. I think everybody should read it at least once.
Speaker 3:It's definitely a book that I recommend often. And there's just Bell Hooks. In general, Her little practice is talk about healing literature right.
Speaker 3:Everybody should read them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in high school I used to love reading. I don't have much time to read right now. To be honest, I'm reading a lot of articles to support my work around cake therapy and girls, to be able to advocate for them, I feel so boxed in right now just doing that kind of research, and I should. I really. I enjoyed reading. I could read like two, three books over a weekend, but my hands have gotten so full.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it ebbs and it flows. I always say, like, if you want to have a little bit of your day to read, always carry a book of poetry. That's such a. That's one of my go-to mental health tips Always carry a book of poetry. Or always come on that bedside table, you know, read a poem before bed, something that feels nurturing and soothing to you.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a good tip Guys get a poetry book. Get a poetry book. Guys, before you go to bed, Put down the phones, Get off Instagram, Get a book of poetry. So tell me a little bit here, Emily. What was the defining element of your upbringing right that led you to this career of social work, If there were any that? Ultimately led you to specializing in bibliotherapy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, my mother was a teen mother. She had me at 14. And then my grandmother, you know, was not very happy about that, Shipped her off to Puerto Rico and my grandmother raised me. But I remember always seeing my mother reading a book. My mother was a big reader and even after my grandmother passed away she passed when I was 14. I just always thought about my mother and all the burdens that she carried and I remember seeing the joy that she accessed in her books. Whether it was a magazine, you know, a sense magazine, or a romance book, my mother was always reading. She was a nurse as well, but that was something that affected us and I think that was really important.
Speaker 3:Because I grew up estranged from my mother and I write about this as well, because there was a stint that I spent in foster care after my grandmother died Books have always been my most trusted friends. You know, I've dealt with a lot of trauma early life and I feel like my books were always like a navigation tool, a compass for me. And also, growing up my grandmother, you know, being that she raised me. When she was at work I would be babysat by my maternal aunt, who I lived with who was diagnosed?
Speaker 3:with paranoid schizophrenia. Yeah, so my aunt, you know she would have these ideas of reference and think that messages on the television or the radio were directed at her and she would have these episodes. And I grew up around a lot of this room it's not just my eye, I think because she was the person who I spent the most time with that that was growing up. There were so many instances that I could share with you people, my family, people in my community who were mentally ill and it wasn't being addressed or there was this approach of like wanting to pray it away. And so for me there there was so much that I was seeing and processing that wasn't being explained. And I think because the nature of how I grew up, being exposed to so much so early, with no context.
Speaker 3:I was a vigorous reader. I was always looking for answers on my own. I was always, you know, also looking for a way to manage my anxiety. I think I had extreme anxiety as a child. That also wasn't identified and addressed because I was so high performing, as long as I was getting the straight A's and all the awards, nobody really thought about my mental health. But I was really struggling like for real, and I don't think it came too ahead until my grandmother died, and then at that point my depression got so severe that it had to be addressed. Books have just always been the most consistent friend in my life.
Speaker 2:So you loved reading books, always gotten lost in books. Books have been your safe space, like you mentioned. How and when did you recognize that this could be like a therapeutic modality? The potential when did you discover the potential of this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was my social work internship. My first internship was at a day treatment facility for schizophrenia and every intern had to facilitate a socialization group. So when it was my turn to run a group, I decided I would approach a therapy group Because I majored in English language and literature. I went to a creative arts high school where I majored in creative writing, so this was sort of like my area, my zone of genius, so to speak. So when I brought this to my clinical supervisor she was like Emily, are you sure these clients have schizophrenia? Many of them are not rooted in reality. Like do you see them reading poetry? And like, responding to that, I said yeah, I do, because reading and writing poetry has saved my life and I know that this is an entry point to connecting with others that can help our clients get creative. And there was a Russian client in this setting who was painting in the milieu in the community room. Every morning they would buy him paint and they would buy him easels. So I was like you know why can this client have access to creative arts, but we can't develop other aspects of it? So they were like you know what Em Go nuts, let's see how it goes. So I went, like you know what Em Go nuts, let's see how it goes. So I went to the dollar store, I bought a pack of notebooks and pens.
Speaker 3:I spoke with each of the social workers and psychiatrists on the team to get a sense of who might be a good fit for the group and, honestly, my clients loved it. They loved it because I think there's so much schizophrenia that is an inner like interior world experience, and schizophrenia that is an inner like interior world experience. And so, even when we talk about things like, you know, hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, a lot of those archetypes that tend to come up in the psyche that can be really isolating because it's only in your mind. But the minute that someone says, hey, let's give it a name, let's put language to it and make meaning around it and really think about what the symbolism of this means for you in the context of your life.
Speaker 3:My clients loved coming to the group. They loved reading poetry, they loved helping other clients understand their inner reality and it ended up connecting them because they realized that, as much as they are suffering, they're not alone and they started to connect to one another through what they've been through, you know. And so now, this dark place that exists in your mind, you're not alone with them. Now. You have a group of people to talk to about it, and some of my clients would even respond to the poems that we read in group by writing their own poetry. The big component of poetry therapy is not only reading poetry, but responding to poetry by writing their own poetry. That's a big component of poetry therapy is not only reading poetry, but responding to poetry by writing your own, and so my clients would write their own poetry and they would read it out loud.
Speaker 3:At one point we did like a event in the milieu, in the community room, where clients did spoken word. They had like a mini performance for the censor and it was just absolutely beautiful. And I remember, after my internship was over, the director of the program was like I don't know, I've never heard about bibliotherapy or poetry therapy and I don't know much about what training looks like in this field. But, like girl, this is it, this is like you do this.
Speaker 1:You need to continue, whatever it is you want to do with this.
Speaker 3:keep going, because you're going to say that I had perfect attendance. I was over-enrolled. It was just a beautiful testament to the power of how literature helps us heal and helps us find community.
Speaker 2:You know, as I'm listening to you, Emily, I'm thinking about a book that I read a long time ago. I can't recall. It's called the Purpose Driven Life.
Speaker 3:Yes, Rick Warren.
Speaker 2:Rick Warren's book. Right, and I'm listening and I felt like you were actually called to this. Do you feel that sometimes, because you've had this experience of a paranoid, schizophrenic aunt and then out of this world you're put into this treatment facility for adults with schizophrenia and then here you go, rolling out the things that help you heal as a child to you know, using this modality to serve I? Do you feel like you are living the purpose-driven life and that you were actually called to do this? Tell, tell me a little bit more.
Speaker 3:I love that. So, first of all, I was born and raised in the church. I went to church with my grandmother six days a week and so, yes, I read the Purpose Driven Life. I know all about all of the books that Rick Warren has written and just like that are based, you know, in scripture. And yeah, I do feel like everything.
Speaker 3:I feel like for all of us, like if we're doing it right, right, if we're sitting to call on our life, like we can look back at our trajectory and see the many ways that spirit was preparing us for a particular path. And so I absolutely, I absolutely see the connection and I try to remind myself, in those moments where I get doubtful, I get tired and I'm like, oh, am I doing this right? That you know what my steps are ordered. So all I got to do is continue to do the work, you know, and be humble and submit to the call on my life and just show up for the work. And that's really what it's about. Yeah, excited, like I never thought doing this work would even land me a book deal. You know, like I never, I never saw what the outcome would be and I never, sort of like anticipated it. I've always just felt led to do it my way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm grateful you know that people yes absolutely, because I'm not the first to do this, like biblical therapy is an ancient modality. But I think you know, when you have a platform and you're sharing of yourself and you're sharing of your work, so people can see it and connect to it, you know it's different and when you're stepping into your purpose, because a lot of people, many people, are called to bibliotherapy.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. I feel like your steps were really ordained and you were chosen because you yourself have used this and you know. I think there is like a waiting period that you waited while reading for you to really hear what the purpose of all of this, what that preparation was about for you, and recognizing the waiting and staying patient and focused is the key here for many of us.
Speaker 3:I love that, absolutely, absolutely and being able to see it in yourself. Right, because I think some of us, even through this journey, I don't know, there's always gonna be supporters, naysayers, you know, and people who are like, well, why her? And it's like, well, why not, why not me, why not you?
Speaker 3:You can do it too, if you put in the work right Like no, I'm not putting myself as specialized, like, oh, I am the bibliotherapist. No, there's bibliotherapists everywhere. I just was brave enough to come out and be like, hey, my practice is Bliopi, ny seat. This is how I do the real therapy. Come hang out with me. You know what I mean. And so for some people, they have the gift but they don't see in themselves, they don't feel I don't know, they don't feel confident enough, they don't feel like they have the support.
Speaker 3:It's like I think about it all the time for myself, even in the work that I do, because I work with some phenomenal women who are doing really great things, and I'm like, why don't you create a public platform? Why don't you sell these designs that you create on the internet? Like, people need to see what you're doing. You know, and there's always a sense of like well, shrinking ourselves or being afraid that if we, if, if I don't publicly, we're going to be critiqued or criticized. Like, well, yeah, that's par for the course, right, like, especially as black women, we're not strangers to being criticized, critiqued, nitpicked, doubted. You have to believe in your own power and your own gifts. If you don't believe it, no one else is going to believe you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. Power and your own gifts. If you don't believe it, no one else is gonna believe you. Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like some, some of us, we will. We're convicted about what our purpose, you know what our purpose is. But then there's a an element of skepticism that comes in when one person asks, like, what is bibliotherapy, what is cake therapy? You know, questioning your belief, and then it weakens your stance and your position. How much I believe in it, you know. And you have to be able to stand in your own conviction about what's worked for you and how you've seen it work.
Speaker 3:So that's right and there's people who now believe in cake therapy because of you. You are a board certified, you know medical doctor, you have, you have the education, the credentials. Because, like, sometimes people will tell me well, why do you do it? If it's so hard, if it's so expensive? And it's like do you think that if I wasn't a licensed clinical social worker for over 14 years, with the receipts to show how literature has helped me, help my community, that anybody would take me seriously?
Speaker 1:Maybe now, if I decide, you know what I'm not going to renew my clinical license.
Speaker 3:I'm going to go all in with my biblical therapy training, maybe now that I've created a platform and I've proven myself right in the public eye. But it matters. And this is where and I have mixed feelings about this too, because I feel like we're so focused on like credentialism in our society that we tend to devalue lived experience, which is just as important. But I think you know, it would be remiss of us not to acknowledge that, that you're a doctor, a social worker, and we're using these eclectic methods and people respond to it because they know that we've got the receipts and they know that we've got education.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I do have. I don't have an MD. I have a PhD and a master's in public health. So let me just clarify before they come for me in the chat.
Speaker 3:That's right, they're coming here now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I still got them letters, a lot of them exactly so.
Speaker 3:Oh, because of your history as a vaccination yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So. I did that, yeah, um, through my whole phd years.
Speaker 3:So um, even this moment where it's like oh, let me be very clear, because I do the same thing back and forth. I'm like the same thing. I'm training to be a bibliotherapist. Though I've used this modality for 14 years, I am not fully credentialed yet. Why? Because it's time, money and energy. I have a disability. I have a three year old daughter. Like this training program that should have taken me three years is probably going to take me ten Because of the bureaucratic realities and the systemic barriers that are in place Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it does not minimize that lived experience, that lived experience that you have used to transform lives. That's transcended decades for you To becoming you know, Emily Rumble bibliotherapist. So we cannot minimize that at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Speaker 2:What I love my work in racial equity, diversity. You know making sure that healthcare is equitable. You know making sure that health care is equitable. Vaccines are equitable Health equity. You know health care parity and I love how you positioned yourself to want to make sure that accessibility for mental health services are available to everyone. The stigma around mental health is removed. The stigma around mental health is removed. Do you think that we are actually growing away from how the community sees and approaches? You know mental health.
Speaker 3:I think we are, because I think the veil has been lifted I'm not going to say post-pandemic, because I feel like we're still in one, but I think, you know, after the height of the pandemic in 2020, people really realized like, wow, you know, after the height of the pandemic in 2020, people really realized like, wow, you know these systems, we can't rely on these systems to save us, to help us, to heal us Like we really need to do better. I saw so many people start to get really serious about, you know, just exercise, simple things, drinking your water, eating better, moving your body.
Speaker 3:You know more people than ever started reading again and I think people started to really think about their mental health, their psychological, emotional health in a real way, because it got really real, you know, like, and before then we were just busy. It was just like okay, work the bills, work the.
Speaker 3:You know, that's sort of what this capitalistic machine does to us is it keeps us disembodied and we're just like go, go, go, but that world stops and then you realize like, oh, there are things that are way more important than just running this rat race.
Speaker 3:You know my relationship with my children, my health, how I feel, you know, like my sense of resentment, my sense of what do I want out of my life, like people were really starting to ask themselves these bigger questions, self-actualizing questions and having to face the answers. So I do think a major shift is happening and I think a lot of this shift is about self-healing practice. You know, like how can we develop practices for ourselves that are going to build off of what we're already doing for our mental health? So for a lot of people, like a lot of runners start to join running communities or start to sign up to actually like engage in marathons to build community for themselves and like kind of friends who are also into running, like there's so many different ways that self-healing practice and honoring what that could be for us in our mental health care helps us to move from being so isolated to building a larger community support, and that's really important in this boat yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I think that a lot of people um are a little bit more aware thanks to the pandemic, of course about their mental health status, because that thing drove a lot of people ragging. What did you do like during the pandemic? How many books did you read? Because you, yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't think I told you this when I was pregnant with my daughter. We had to move to South Carolina temporarily because all of my prenatal appointments were getting canceled or they were moved virtually.
Speaker 3:And I was in my third trimester. So once we got to the good things, we had a place to go where I could give birth to. The bad thing was all of the driving, like somehow, from New York City to South Carolina traveling, I contracted COVID. So I got really, really sick in my third trimester and I had to stay isolated in a room for three weeks away from my son. It was so traumatizing, dr Foster, because I'm in that room and I have a fever of 104. At this point I can't see a doctor because everyone is afraid to touch me. So every time I'd call the hospital they would just tell me you know, just wait for your water to break, wait for your water to break. And I'm like and what if it doesn't break?
Speaker 3:Thankfully this was my second child, not my first, because I think, because I had been too much for me, I would have really gone downhill mentally.
Speaker 3:But because I sort of like at that point I knew my body, I knew my daughter, but she wasn't kicking. So in my mind I'm like, oh, I get emotional just remembering it, because I just remember thinking like, oh, my God, what if she's a silver, like I really didn't know I had to completely trust God in this season of my life and so for those three weeks alone I must have read at least 20 books. That was literally. And I would read out loud to my baby girl in my belly. I would tell her, like you know, I would just talk to her like she understood, baby, you know. But today we're going to be reading this book and I would just and it's so funny because now that she's here she's like this mini me and she loves her books and every time I get you know from from a publisher, she'll run to the door like mommy, is that books for us? So I feel like that really solidified, that we have. Yeah, that was such a terrifying.
Speaker 2:I know it must have been. Did you at any point of that experience? Did you feel like young Emily with?
Speaker 3:her grandmother who got lost, you know with you know, yeah, it was a total revisitation of that childhood trauma, because I used to do that when I was a child and hide in the closet, especially if my aunt was having like a, an episode, I would just go in my closet and I had a little uh reading lamp in there and I would just read my books.
Speaker 3:Those were my two places, whenever the household got chaotic I would read in my closet or I would read in the bathroom in the back, with the curtain closed, so people would be coming into the bathroom not knowing that I'm in there reading You're in there reading.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, so you have to look out for your girl. She might be doing that someday, you know, being in the shower you do mention that love affair that you see that developing. You know, with your daughter possibly getting really excited about when books arrive. How do you actually stay informed about new literature and diverse reading materials to ensure that you provide the most relevant and meaningful recommendations to your clients?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I'm so fortunate because in the three years that I've established Literary, I've been able to build really strong relationships with publishers who are aligned with my mission. And my mission is really to amplify diverse therapeutic literature and that's no shade to anybody who's not cube ipad, because, at the end of the day, the publishing world is white and the authors don't need support from platforms like mine. It's the authors who can marginalize communities who really need the support, and so, by establishing those relationships with publishers, they kind of already know when there's a book coming out on the market that I'd love to read or that I'd love to see work.
Speaker 3:So sometimes it's them reaching out to me like hey, em, we've got this upcoming title June 2024, do you want us to send you an advanced readers copy? So I'm really grateful for that, because I've had to work extremely hard for free to make myself and my presence as a professional reader known and valuable, so that's really fortunate. I also use platforms like NetGalley, etowise. These are platforms where authors will advance readers' copies of their books for readers to read and review.
Speaker 1:So in exchange for an honest review.
Speaker 3:you can request a book you don't always get, and it's not a guarantee that you're going to get approved if you make a request, like for me. I've been doing this for so many years. I still get rejections all the time. My review rating is a hundred percent, so I tell people all the time I'm like do not get discouraged if you're rejected. We don't. You know, publishers have their preferences and also like advanced readers copies that they hand out.
Speaker 3:So maybe you know it's a no because there's none no copies left, but that's what I do is I align myself with like-minded people in publishing so that they kind of know what to send me, and then I'll do a lot of research on these problems. Storygraph is another place that folks should check out, and goodreads. Goodreads is a wonderful platform, and a lot of readers and viewers will post advanced reviews on there as well. The downside of that, though, is that sometimes you'll get someone who is and again, like every book is going to resonate with every reader, and some books really are not great books, and so it is what it is, but I think sometimes a negative review before a book gets published can really tank, you know, that opportunity to find the right reader. So sometimes I'll see that where there will be a book.
Speaker 3:Like, for example, cedric the Entertainer recently came out with a novel Flipping Cops, I believe it was called and there were like two reviews that were posted on Goodreads six months prior to his release. The readers absolutely hated the book, but, again, these readers were not the demographic that the book was written for. I don't even know why the publisher sent these readers the books To them. It was just, like you know, some ghetto mob story, and the writing was horrible, they said. But I got a copy of the book.
Speaker 3:After I read those reviews, it's like no, steve the Entertainer is actually really prominent as a Black comedian in our community. If his book is awful, it's awful, but if it's not, I want a chance to read it for myself. So I requested the book and I read it and honestly, I enjoyed it. I really. To me it was so much more than a crime story. It was a Black family story. It was about the ways that Black families navigated the prohibition. Like it was well done, I gave it four stars, and so that's sort of how I view my work is to really amplify the literature that needs the support essentially.
Speaker 2:I know I know I'm really excited that you dropped all these little dimes in here because I'm working on my next book, you know, about grief and loss and the power of actually letting go.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm actually. I'm really trying to heal myself from this, like this decline that I've experienced with my mom. It's just so heartbreaking. So I'm processing all of that, but I'm writing the book around that. So it's chugging along because I have such big feelings about it. My heart is literally smashing Like crashing is like this deep anguish that I just can't let go of. I'm losing my mom and I wish that. Oh my God. I wish my mom had just passed, as opposed to going through this thing drip by drip, just watching her decline day. You know what I mean? I don't know, but I'm trying to process that. So I'm glad you dropped those gems. I am going to have to set my manuscript off because I'm putting a lot of big feelings inside the book.
Speaker 3:I'm so glad that you're writing the book because she was such a big part of cake therapy and you really I get emotional because I know what you mean by that anticipatory grief. It's it hits different, know when you have to witness the decline, because you know your mother is so sharp and witty and strong and it's a different season of life, right. So I'm sending you guys so much love and so many prayers. I love the way you wrote about your mother and take care of her. Even the photos you share with her in the book. Like you can just see that she was not one to be messed around with.
Speaker 3:Powerful woman, her spirit just emanates powerful. There's a picture in the book where it's you, mom and kennedy. I love that's my favorite picture in the whole book because it showed first of all, it's just beautiful to see three generations side by side. But I think it was just such a beautiful photo to include in the way that you write about your mother's journey. You know the way that she navigated single motherhood Like oh, I I'm going to get emotional talking about that.
Speaker 2:I'm just so glad to hear that you're writing. Yeah, I am, I'm telling, I, you know, I, I, in the book I told her story, but then I'm telling my own heartbreak of losing her. Like you know, I talk about the genius and the rise and the soldier. You know the star, and then now I have to talk about, like, how the star is kind of dimming, you know, and that light is just leaving. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:She's giving it to me. That light is in you now, so she's passing over time, but we're never ready. We're never ready to lose our mothers in any way, in any sense. So I'm sending you so much love and grace as you put this down on the page, because I know now that I'm writing a book, or I've written it, it's still, thank God.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:It's on the page. I was not ready to get across it. I was not ready and I have been through something about the process of writing a book and figuring out how you want to tell the story and how you want to do it in a way that truly honors the integrity of your experience. It's a love, it's a labor of love, for sure.
Speaker 3:But I know that this work, because you're so crucial to who you've become and your work. It's just going to be a continuation of the legacy. I can't wait to read it. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I absolutely receive that. Now, what was your process in writing your book?
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness, I've been sitting on this manuscript for four years and you know it started off one way. You know, when you're writing a book, like you've got one vision for it, but then, as it all shifts and then different publishers have different ideas of what kind of book they want you to write. And I just wasn't finding a publisher understood what I was trying to do with this book. I didn't want to write a manual for therapists.
Speaker 3:I didn't want to write a memoir about my life. I wanted it to be a tool that was going to validate readers, that was going to talk about the way the science of reading helps us heal. The science of reading helps us build community, really helps to connect us back to ourselves, and how that is supportive to our overall mental, emotional and psychological health. So I ended up sending my manuscript to Roehouse and the president of Roehouse, rebecca Baruti. She asked she could schedule a call with me and when we were on the call, she just I didn't even say anything. She knew exactly what I was trying to do with this book. Um, she just like verbalized it in such a beautiful way and I was like, oh my god, yes, you get it.
Speaker 1:It felt so good to be seen, you know.
Speaker 3:so I knew that Roehouse was the publishing house for me to go with and then over the course of writing it, you know like at first it's very heavy on my personal story but I had an amazing editor and she really helped me to like carve out what like how to tell the story of bibliotherapy the way that I wanted to tell it for the people who I wanted to tell it to. So I took a very particular lens in my book. It's a decolonial lens, it's in honor of black librarians, no shade to anybody else. But I really wanted to tell the story of bibliotherapy for the Black community. Yeah, and she helped me do that, and so there's a lot of history there.
Speaker 3:The godmother of bibliotherapy, dr Sadie Peterson Delaney, whose name is often not spoken or recognized in professional circles of bibliotherapy. I hear a lot about the history of the Black community in particular, because our ancestors could be killed for becoming literate and learning how to read. So I really wanted to add the way that bibliotherapy looks in places like the Bronx, where I'm using it, you know, and how we're already using it but maybe not calling it that.
Speaker 3:I honor the history of spoken word and pop therapy as poetry therapy. Shout out to the great Dr Edgar Tyson, who founded the framework for hip hop therapy. So I write a lot about hip hop because the Bronx is the birthplace of hip hop. So you know it's not going to be your typical bibliotherapy collegial book. I want it to be a little bit of all of that. I want it to be a reflection of me and my community. So that's really how it can be and I'm just so grateful that it's done.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad it's done.
Speaker 3:I'm happy for you.
Speaker 2:You know I love that you're so intentional about this type of service to the community, service to the community. What? Why are you so intentional?
Speaker 3:you know, about making sure that the story is written for our people. Yeah well, because, you know, black culture is appropriated all the time, and Black women's work in particular is stolen all the time. It's either not recognized, it's not acknowledged they don't call us by our names or they just straight up steal it and call it something else. So that's why I'm so intentional. You know, I remember the first time that I read about Dr CD Peterson Delaney, I was devastated because at this point I was already teaching at as an adjunct at university. I was already, you know, writing articles and writing Black pieces on bibliotherapy. And here I am, a black woman, and there's the godmother of bibliotherapy who's black, who's a social worker, and I didn't know that. And she's not anywhere in in in the world that I'm reading and I'm an avid reader. So it's not like I'm not somebody who is constantly, you know, visiting primary and secondary sources. I'm always reading. How have I not read her name before?
Speaker 3:And so I scheduled an appointment at the Schomburg here in New York City to read through the Dr Sadie Peterson Delaney letters and honestly, it was such an emotional experience for me because I'm reading letters from Eleanor Roosevelt about her. I'm seeing that she was honored by the Library of Congress. I'm reading through her letters and I'm like whoa, her body of work is phenomenal. Talk about Black excellence. Why is she not in any of the books on bibliotherapy? You know, it just blew me away. And it goes to show why it's so important that we cite Black women, that we honor the work of Black women in our communities and that we call it what it is.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah absolutely and so that's why I don't want, and sometimes, when you're this intentional, some people feel like they're isolating others, and one thing that I've come to learn is that I'm not somebody who isolates anyone, right Like. I'm always very clear that the work that I do is for my community, but all are welcome, and so particularly for, like white folks who might critique my intentionality, my answer to that is always well, you need to look within, because why are you so uncomfortable being a part of a space that prioritizes Black and brown voices?
Speaker 3:I have a lot of white people in my community that are at the NYC but for some reason you feel like you know you don't want to be a part of this community or it's uncomfortable for you to be a part of this community. Then that's your own racial healing work that you've got to do, yeah, that they gotta do you know what I mean? So I absolutely that comes up yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 2:I have. I've had like a similar like issue with a lot of these issues. Someone questioned where are the white folks? Um, on your website and in your trifold flyer and I'm like they're there. So I felt so like I had to go and write a blog. That cake therapy does include diversity. We're a diverse community but I'm really targeting those girls who have suffered, you know, through the history, the system, you know the systemic injustices. Those are my targets, you know.
Speaker 2:But you're welcome to come. So I love that you're able to stand on that and stand on that in confidence, because, girl, I'm telling you, they out there and they'll be questioning. So you mentioned yeah, you mentioned that you didn't want to write a manuscript for bibliotherapists. What would your advice then be to aspiring social workers or therapists who are interested in incorporating bibliotherapy into their practices?
Speaker 3:I think you have to first of all, like ask yourself what's your? Why Are you doing it now? Because it's like the trendy thing to do. Like now, all of a sudden, I'm seeing everybody's a biblical therapist and it's like you know, and I love it. Don't get me wrong, I love it. But it's also like, do you know what it means? Do you know what it is? And not in the sense that you know, if you're not connected to an organization or an affiliation with some kind of organization, you're not valid.
Speaker 3:Because I've been calling myself a bibliotherapist since before, you know, I started training. But I think it's really asking yourself, like, why are you doing it? Is it something that you truly believe in? Is it something that you've seen in the community and that has helped you help others? Or is it just something that you see gaining traction? So now you want to slap that on your website soon and be like I do too. You know that's not sustainable. If you're trying to be an imitation of someone else, first of all, it's not going to be rewarding for you because it's not coming from a genuine place, and second of all, other people, especially when you work directly with people, especially amongst you, can't be fake, because people can see right through that right, so like be you, do you and work your way, like for me.
Speaker 3:A long tradition of bibliotherapists Ella Brithoud, susan Alderkin these are British bibliotherapists that are really leaders and pioneers in this field. They've published several books on the topic. I don't practice like they do, though that's no shade to them. I love both of them and their work has really enriched my practice. But I take more of a spiritual approach to bibliotherapy as well. So, for me, I use Bibliomancy, which is divination through books.
Speaker 3:A lot of us our mothers and our grandmothers do this with the Bible, with religious texts, right when you open the word and you wait for some guidance.
Speaker 3:And so this is the idea of bibliomancy that finding the right book at the right time is really about divine guidance and being divinely guided.
Speaker 3:So, like for me, before I see a client, I may not have prior experience with a client before they book me, especially if they're not in New York City because I provide virtual services. So after a client pulls out my reading intake, I'll usually say a prayer for them, you know, and I'll just based on what they've shared with me in their intake, I'll say a prayer as I'm curating literature for their session, and I've had really aligned moments where, like for example, let's say, I curate a bibliotherapy for a client I've never met before, after the session the client is in tears because they're like how did you know that my mother died? So much of the literature that you told was about mother loss, parent loss, and I'm like I didn't know that. But you know and I share this with clients I'll say you know, I do employ bibliomancy when I pray for all my clients. Whether you pray for yourself or not, I'm gonna pray for you because that's just the way that I work, and I truly believe that that component of my work cannot be understated.
Speaker 3:Like I am a spiritual goodwill therapist, I think that there's, you know, of course it's important to be, you know, intellectual and evidence-based and all of that, but some things cannot be quantified or measured, especially when it comes to spirit. So that's, that's the loop.
Speaker 2:I with my upbringing and just listening to you. There's so much alignment here, you know, because I think one of the greatest gifts that our forefathers or the matriarchs of our families left with us is that gift of recognition in scripture, like knowing, when it comes, when you see the right one, how it speaks to you. And I think, as we continue to explore it is now we're kind of understanding what this is, what this thing is the recognition of the message in scriptures and why it stands out to us. And it's through your work, yeah.
Speaker 2:So looking ahead for you, you know what are your hopes and goals for the future of bibliotherapy. You know both in your own practice and the field of mental health.
Speaker 3:What are you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, honestly, I'm asked this question a lot and I think I struggle because there's a part of me that knows that I'm always gonna be a little bit limited with my time and energy, because I'm a mother and because I'm a wife, right, like that's a very real thing and that's the life I wanted for myself. Like there's a part of me that's just like I just want to earn a good living so that I can just raise my babies and be in peace. There's like a very real part. But there's this other part of me that knows that I have a legacy to leave behind for future, to be a therapist. And so for me me that's where the book came in.
Speaker 3:I never saw myself publishing a book, but I knew that I'm not somebody who, like I, didn't want to be the face of this. I didn't like, I didn't think about literally as being like me. You know, I did this out of sheer survival, because I needed to keep my career alive and do that in a way with the tools that I had, which is licensure and my community and my clients, and so that's why I went into private practice was so that I could keep working to provide for my family, to provide for my children, you know. But now that it's this thing that's bigger than me, it's really exciting because I feel like, if nothing else, I'm leaving a legacy behind for other women, for Black, for other you know, african women, latinx women, women of color, to see what's possible. You are not limited because you decided to become a mother, because you have a child with a disability or because you know.
Speaker 3:Fill in the blank. We're always being told what we can and cannot have as women, as women of color. We're constantly questioned, unseated and, you know, provided with these limiting narratives and narratives and it's like no, if you are willing to put in the work, you can make it happen. Yeah, I can get it happen. My goal is to show other women what's possible. I hope that women are inspired by my story. I hope that women are, you know, and also like. I also hope that women are more intentional about whether or not they want to become mothers, because I think this is is this conversation that often goes unnoticed that there's a great sacrifice in the way that becoming a mother will influence and impact career, and that's a very real thing.
Speaker 1:That I wish we could have a talk about.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean Because a lot of times. I don't know how you do it. I do it on five hours of sleep a day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, up at 3 am Right, because my kids got to get up at 3 am I know, I know.
Speaker 3:So I just hope people will read the book, buy the book, learn from the function that I'm in and build off of it so that other clinicians in the field can take this modality and create something beautiful of their own for their own practices and their own communities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a legacy, Emily, what a legacy you're building, what kind of such a beautiful message that you're. You know you're leaving for your kids. You know you're setting a great standard and an example for them. I know you talk about the book Bibliotherapy in the Bronx. That's coming out next year, in April of 2025. I can hear the excitement. How excited are you, though, to share this with the world?
Speaker 3:I'm so excited. I'm terrified Because it's so vulnerable putting a book out and putting your story out right, it's going to live long after you're gone. But I'm so proud of myself. So proud of myself because only I know what it took to write this book. Only I know the late nights, the you know, me and my husband getting into arguments and then still having to like write. And or my son, you know, having like I'm around at therapy today and still having to write.
Speaker 3:All of the things that I've had to navigate in my multiple roles and draw from all of the pain, all of the joy, all of the wisdom, all of the hard work. Right, because, like for me and I told my publisher this I'm like, I know that I am a top-tier therapist. I'm humble at moments, but I'm this, I, I'm this. I cannot be humble. I am a therapist. When it comes to being a therapist, baby, I know that I do this, I do this work. You are it In the therapy room, it's me and my client. Nobody would ever know, right, the things that happen in my therapy room.
Speaker 1:But now that I've written, a book.
Speaker 2:I get to share it with you all.
Speaker 3:I'm so excited about that, because I'm not a braggadocious person and I'm not someone who's going to be like oh you know, look at me, pat me on the back, I do this, I do that. But in my book I really wanted to show like, no, I do this, and you can listen to it. And here's how I did it, so that you can, like you know, tailor it to your own liking, and that's exciting.
Speaker 2:I am excited, I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited for you. It's an exciting opportunity and I can't wait to read it and I want our listeners to dive into it, because there's so much that there get so much from you just being there. This has been an amazing conversation, emily. I'm really happy that you said yes. You gave us the gift of your time. This has definitely been a slice of joy and healing for me and, before we go, I'd like you to share with our listeners where they can find you, because I want people to get to know you, just like I.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you so much. First of all, I just so much love and respect and honor for you and I can't tell you enough how much it means to me that you see my work and appreciate my work, because I love your spirit and I love your work and I love the way that you infuse your spirit into your work, so thank you so much.
Speaker 3:In regards to how folks can connect my website, wwwliterarypnyccom, I have a free book club on Fable. That's readers who are the folks, and Fable is an app that's free. You can download it to your android or your iphone and join us at readers who run with the wolves. I also have a introductory webinar course that's available for purchase. You can download it to your Android or your iPhone and join us at Readers who Run With the Wolves. I also have a introductory webinar course that's available for purchase on my website for those who want to learn a little bit more about this modality of bibliotherapy and use literature in healing practice.
Speaker 3:You can shop my e-books and my resources at academyliterapynyccom. I have a book on resources and tools there and some freebies. I have a free book list that's available for download and I have a one page on what the heck is bibliotherapy and it will kind of like explain some of the three pillars of what bibliotherapy is in healing practice and what that looks like in the day room. So I have a book community.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, community is a subscription based book community. It's $5.99 a month, but what I love about this community is that it's full of teachers, librarians, bibliotherapists, therapists who want to become bibliotherapists share weekly features of literature that I'm using in my practice, along with ways to incorporate it into your sessions and monthly book lists, books that are upcoming that you should keep an eye out for. So I've got a bunch of different ways that you can connect with me and, of course, my book coming out April 2025,.
Speaker 2:The Deal Therapy in the Box. Oh, my goodness, thank you so much. There's so much going on and we're going to add that in our summary of the episode. We're going to add all of these links. So, emily, you can probably send those to Stephanie so that we can make sure that we get those correctly. Thank you so much, emily, for joining us. This has been your Slice of Joy and Healing. It's a cake therapy podcast and it's an honor to be your host, and it has been an honor to have this conversation with Emily today. Thank you, I want cake now. I know she's not cake, but she's good. Today's mindful moment cooking connects us to ourselves.
Speaker 1:Each meal is an invitation to care to nourish and to be kind to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and if you found the conversation helpful, please share it with a friend. Also, follow Sugar Spoon Desserts on all social media platforms. We invite you to support Cake Therapy and the work we do with our foundation by clicking on the Buy Me a Coffee link in the description or by visiting the Cake Therapy website and making a donation. All your support will go towards the Cake Therapy Foundation and the work we are doing to help women and girls. Thanks again for tuning in and we'll catch you on the next episode.