Cake Therapy
Cake Therapy is a heartwarming and uplifting podcast that celebrates the transformative power of baking therapy. Hosted by Dr. Altreisha Foster, the passionate baker, entrepreneur and advocate behind Cake Therapy, this podcast is a delightful blend of inspiring stories, expert insights and practical baking tips. Each episode takes listeners on a journey of self-discovery, emotional healing and connection through the therapeutic art of baking.
Cake Therapy
Understanding Generational Trauma and Healing Paths with Sam Simmons
Discover the transformative power of healing and resilience in our latest episode with Mr. Samuel Simmons, a leading authority on trauma within the African-American community. We embark on a profound exploration of how historical trauma impacts productivity and relationships, emphasizing the critical need to acknowledge male trauma. Our conversation with Mr. Simmons uncovers the intersection of historical trauma and community resilience, shedding light on the importance of understanding these dynamics to foster healthier communities.
Join us as we unpack the complexities of masculinity and healing trauma within family dynamics. Drawing from personal and professional experiences, we share insights into how therapy can connect past experiences to present behaviors, equipping Black men with tools to navigate trauma. We challenge societal expectations of masculinity, advocating for adaptability and leading by example in family roles, stressing the importance of redefining masculinity for the benefit of families and communities.
The journey continues as we address the intricate dance between individuality and community healing. We explore the pressures of cultural expectations and the impact of historical trauma on codependent dynamics. Through discussions on imposter syndrome and the path to self-acceptance, we emphasize the necessity of truth and accountability in healing. We wrap up by highlighting the profound impact of inter-generational trauma and the potential for healing through forgiveness and understanding, culminating in exciting announcements about upcoming community empowerment events in Minnesota.
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Welcome to the Cake Therapy Podcast a slice of joy and healing, with your host, Dr Altricia Foster. This is a heartwarming and uplifting space that celebrates the transformative power of baking therapy. The conversations will be a delightful blend of inspirational stories, expert insights and practical baking tips. Each episode will take listeners on a journey of self-discovery, emotional healing and connection through the therapeutic art of baking. There's something here for everyone, so lock in and let's get into it.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, welcome to the Cake Therapy Podcast, your slice of joy and healing, with me, your host, dr Altricia Foster. So today's episode is going to be exciting. It's an exciting one because I have one of my mentors in conversation today. Our podcast will enlighten you, it will uplift you and in some instances, it will make you feel grumpy, because we have a grumpy guest. I'm joking. He's one of my favorite people in the world and Mr Samuel Simmons is here. He's the host of Voices on KMOJ and he's the CEO. He's the head on show at Samuel Simmons Consulting. So welcome, mr Simmons. Hello.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing well. Thank you for being here. So for some of our listeners who are not familiar with Mr Simmons, I'm about to tell you this long bio that he owns. You know he does so many things. He's an alcohol and drug counselor and behavioral consultant, cultural sensitivity, trauma-informed strategies that address chemical dependency, interpersonal violence, historical trauma and work with African-American males here and their families here in Minnesota. He is also an adverse childhood experience interface trainer in the state of Minnesota and I've received numerous awards. Believe me, you can see a bunch of them behind him right now. He's received a ton of awards. He's a trainer. He's committed to achieving extraordinary results through effective leadership, interpersonal skills and coaching.
Speaker 2:Mr Simmons, like I mentioned, he is the executive producer of a public affairs program at the popular community radio station KMOJFM here in Minnesota and he is the host of the show Voices of the African American Community. It airs on Friday at 6 pm. Is that correct, mr Simmons? It's at 6 pm on Fridays on KMOJFM. Yes, exactly yeah. And to top it all off, he is a respect. He's respected around the country for highly informed work around African-American historical trauma and Black men's healing. So why is he here? He is an expert in trauma and the African-American community. So welcome again, mr Simmons. Tell me how you're feeling after that long intro.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you know people, you know what they say when they uh say mr simmons, what should I say when I do the bio? Just give me, just tell, tell folks what my name is and then let me go, you know no, no, no, we can't do that.
Speaker 2:We can't do that you know.
Speaker 3:You know the thing is. You know, read all that, make it, make it sound like I'm a lot more important than I, than I am. So. But you know, read all that, make it sound like I'm a lot more important than I am. So. But you know, whatever, whatever makes you happy, this is your day.
Speaker 2:It is my day and it's my podcast and you are all that and you're a lot more than you think or you claim to be. You know you've done so much for the community and we want to highlight that as much as possible. Acknowledge that. So for me you know I mentioned that you're one of my mentors and I really enjoy our conversations. I love how deep you go in conversations and how much you challenge us to think as a community. So, right off the bat for me is I want you to share with our listeners what is driving your commitment to this work.
Speaker 3:I think what drives my commitment is probably more about my personal history, you know, around trying to figure out why you know you go along in life and you keep ending up in the same kind of negative space, right. And and then also realizing that you know in, especially in our community, american community, we talk a great deal about our experience here in America, in the, in the, in the mistreatment and those kind of things and you know, and being resilient in those pieces. And when I started, you know, really understanding this whole concept of trauma, especially post-traumatic stress, you know, having somebody have an experience and then continue to suffer a great deal of time. Afterwards coming up with reading a book on post-traumatic slave syndrome which really kind of breaks down like how does a community affected by you know trauma, a traumatic experience that lasts probably almost over 400 years, right, and what did that look like? Right? And so the more I started understanding trauma and started looking at the community as a whole in terms of areas we keep getting stuck in again, we keep talking about systems and when we're not talking about systems, I started realizing that one of the areas around trauma that wasn't being dealt with was male trauma. Right, you know, you talk about what the system's not doing. And when we run out of that, we start talking about what black men weren't doing.
Speaker 3:And so it's like, okay, you know I'm a black male and you know again, once I understood what trauma was and connected the dots, okay, how did my trauma get in the way of my relationships, in the way of my productivity, and really started looking at that. And then so you know, if you, if you don't allow a whole gender of folks to deal with their trauma, why are you surprised by the harm they do to themselves and others around them? And you know, and that's just in general, of male trauma. Yeah, just think of, we say, black male trauma, you know, in the vision we have of black males, right, and then make it then broadening that to the whole community, right, a community that's been traumatized ever since it's been brought here. It was brought here under trauma, right? Especially when you're talking about African-Americans who have slavery in their background and I got American slavery in their background. We got to be real clear about that, right.
Speaker 3:There's some nuances to that that we don't even want to have a conversation about. Right, you know you've got. You've got black immigrants you've got and they have had their history of trauma and slavery on the islands and you know our island immigrants and those kind of things are you've got. The African immigrants have their whole kind of apartheid and but, but when you come in to America you come with a hope and a belief and that's very different than coming in the bottom of a boat as a slave.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we talked about this before and centuries later still not allowed to heal. One is, you know, not allowed to heal or won't let ourselves heal. You know not allowed to heal or won't let ourselves heal. Because, thinking that, if you know, if we really get deep in the trauma, you know, and how does it feel that then in some, some of our minds, that if I admit that we're kind of, we're traumatized, that that would admit that that lie that's been put upon us, that there's something this inherently wrong with us from birth, right, so, so, so, that's what you know. I'm thinking that if we can get a handle, you get a handle on the trauma, you can start doing your own work in and and actually not be handicapped or paralyzed by it. That's the community and the individual.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you know what I've noticed from having met you and having had numerous conversations with you is that you are an observer of life and history. So tell us a little bit. The listeners who heard the word post-traumatic slave syndrome. I've heard you use it numerous times. I understand the concept. Share with some of our listeners what that is.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, I think you know, look it up, joy DeGruy wrote a book on it over 10 years well, way over 10 years ago. And basically the concept that if you know you have a community, that it goes. You know over 300 years of slavery and then you are told you're free, but at the same time, now you're running into a community of oppression and treat you everything but free. How would that? How would that affect those people emotionally? And she talks about some positive things that we call resilience and some kind of negative thing in terms of survival. Right, you know, I often talk about. There's a lot of things that we talk about as culture in the Black culture, that we kind of and I'm not saying we shouldn't be proud about them, but we have to connect the dots right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Why is how we dress so important? Well, one reason is we were displayed in such negative, nasty ways as a people, like we weren't clean, you know, we were dirty, we were shiftless, all these other kind of things and and to. So when we, you know, when we did get our freedom, our whole thing was maybe not even consciously, but at least subconsciously to prove to these people who had enslaved us that we were just as human as they were, that we were just as human as they were. So that whole idea of how you dress and how you look when you leave the house, you know, not being sloppy, you know, and not being you know, the whole thing about not having the dirty underwear and all these other kinds of things that go along with that.
Speaker 3:If we think about soul food, you know the original concept of soul food came out of survival. It was a lot of the stuff that was considered the leftovers or the slop or whatever. And we in, and we all, we pride ourselves out of making something out of nothing, right. And so, again, trying to connect those dots not and see, my whole thing is is connecting the dots is not trying to make anybody look bad or feel bad, right, it's about helping them understand the behavior they still continue, and so some of our survival methods that we use to get us this far, okay, have been integrated into the culture, right. Well, some of them have lost their usefulness, but we still using them, right. So that whole idea of you know, the whole idea of trying to, you know, be trying to be perfect in the way we carry ourselves, you know, those those things that we told our children, that that we had, we had to do, right, so and so, yeah, so I, for me, is did you have to go to the door?
Speaker 3:Let me check.
Speaker 2:Can I check? Yeah, I can pause. So for me, what I'm really interested in in finding out from you, mr Simmons you talk about, I would say, recognizing a need for support in African-American men who are still living out their trauma, even post-slave right Post-slavery you are a few generations post-slavery yourself, right and I'm interested to finding out from you what has your personal healing journey looked like? You recognize that men in the community needed support. What does your journey look?
Speaker 3:like. Well, you know, this question has always been a little difficult because, again, as you know, by journey really probably got started when I was about 28 years old, and what I mean by that is, you know, I was raised in a two-parent home Christian two-parent home and I've emphasized the Christian two-parent home because that's a significant part in many of African-American communities' experience. And then the other piece of work. I emphasize the two-parent home because we have these stereotypes that we always try to fight. What's interesting about Black stereotypes is interesting always try to fight. What's interesting about Black stereotypes is interesting.
Speaker 3:Sometimes, I think we hold on to them more than other people hold on to, and how. And what I mean by that is we are so conscious of them that they affect our behavior, they affect how we deal with each other, you know, always trying to save face. But who are we trying to save face with? Right, you know? And sometimes when you're trying to save face, you don't put yourself in a position to heal and to move on, because you're not, because you can't heal when you can't tell the truth, right. So, yeah, there's two-parent home, there was alcoholism in there.
Speaker 3:You know, parents got married early, kind of thing, and I'm the oldest child, so you know. So we grew up with, you know, some domestic violence. I grew up feeling responsible for my younger siblings and, you know, moved to Minnesota to get away from all of that. And then you know, I'm now realizing that I was running away from you know myself, because I'm already kind of carrying all that stuff that I found uncomfortable. And I got injured on a job I used to be a truck driver for the University of Minnesota. I got injured, went into a pain clinic and met this therapist who talked to me about this thing called self-defeating behavior. And what's basically with self-defeating behavior is saying that we get triggered by the experience right, that's similar to our past and we act it out right.
Speaker 3:And we keep acting it out over and over again, especially if that experience has fear attached to it. Right, say, you know you have a bad relationship, and really bad, and it really had an effect on you. The next time you get into another relationship, as soon as you start feeling close to a person, your behavior changes in some negative way. And so that was the beginning. You know, because the therapist said you know you're not crazy. You know you're not crazy, you're very insightful. He says, but you just need to connect the dots. So my whole premise is about how do you connect the dots so you can understand the present.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so that was the beginning and I started connecting my own dots. You know, the ironic part there was no, you know, conscious motivation, it's just kind of gathered information. Start, keep, continue to connect the dots. And I, you know, dealt with that therapist and his books of substance behavior. And then I started working with clients. Then, you know, run into the book with Joy DeGruy connecting the dots about community.
Speaker 3:I started working with men, black men initially, you know, doing the therapeutic motion of working with black men. And you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't sticky, I mean, we could go through the motions, I could get paid, but it wasn't having an effect on the men in a way, and I wasn't feeling good about what was going on until I started really talking to them, realizing that you have these men who are acting out their trauma, what we call a trauma response, but it was normal, right. So they're being punished for what was normal to them. You know, their survival behavior was normal. It might not fit in the mainstream or you know, but it fit in that small community they come from, no matter if the four blacks in the hood they came from or whatever, and it was based on really survival Right, and it was based on really survival Right, and then we kept calling you know, and then so how do you differentiate between survival and resilience Right, and so that's so.
Speaker 3:In doing my work at the same time as doing the client, work made me better because I would observe certain things Right. So we were teaching each other. They didn't know it and I didn't know it at the time, but basically, if I wasn't doing the work at the same time, I was doing my work, I don't think I would have got this far.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you were pretty much connecting your dots as you're helping someone else connect their own dots, right, which is pretty cool. So you are a dad, a husband, grandfather, right? How is it? I mean, these are really three pivotal masculine roles in our community. So when you exist in this space, you have these three pivotal masculine roles in the family. Is it harder or easier to lead by example for you?
Speaker 3:Oh, well, golly. Lead by example. I just lead by example. See, one of these things is that I'm lucky from the standpoint. You know, you said these three masculine roles. I look at it as three roles that you know. You said these three masculine roles. I look at it as three roles that you know I'm in. Right, that other people see me in and how they see me probably affects what goes on and how everything is displayed, right, you know? Yeah, I, in doing my work, I have, when I've been able to not be so stuck or confined by the roles, right, you know, and that's why, when I hear the masculine roles, it kind of makes me cringe. Because who defines that? Because, who defines that? Because it's like I just had this conversation with the clients about masculinity and the term. You know the characteristics that a man has, okay, so and so, what are those? I mean? At my house, I don't put out, I don't take out the garbage at my house, okay, I don't shovel the snow at my house.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:You know I might do more cooking and washing clothes. You know I do what's necessary, right? Yeah, if you know me and my wife is out and we've got in the fight, she'll probably beat them up quicker than I would, you know. So it's like you know, being stuck in, I think, those roles, you know, being stuck by the definition of those roles, whatever that is, really is very self-defeating, especially for black men, because our roles, especially African-American men, our roles have been redefined and defined by in so many ways by the fear of how somebody sees us and, in the environment of the folks who enslaved us, this white, patriarchal role which is smoke and mirrors, right, you know, because a lot of white males, if you get behind closed doors, you see that they ain't living up to the roles, the way they're written on a piece of paper either, right, but they want to require you to live up to those rules, right. And that fear of not being seen as a man is I had to give that up a long time ago Because you know we're talking about a kid who didn't like to fight, got picked on.
Speaker 3:You know and I say that not to get no whiny kind of feel sorry for me or whatever. You know that kind of stuff. This was a little fat boy who was sensitive and who cried, you know, who was called a sissy by his mama and didn't have dyslexia so didn't do good in school. So what the kids could do to me or say to me wasn't nothing that was being said to me at the house. Okay, to build me up, you know, I often say black men know how to be punished. They don't always know how to be loved. That's not just by uh systems, yeah, but that's by the community itself, okay, and so so you know those roles is, you know. You just talk about me being your mentor and you know I usually go off. You know I ain't trying to be. No, yeah, you go off.
Speaker 3:You know I believe in role stranger, I believe in role models. But I believe in role models from the standpoint that there's this quote I use. Called role model is somebody who knows the babies are watching and acts accordingly. So it's your everyday behavior. Being aware of your everyday behavior. Can you live with your everyday behavior, even if it's behind closed doors? You know, you catch me. You catch me doing some dirt. I would, yeah, I did it, you know, and then I'll have to just deal with the consequences. And because I can live like that, you know, and make choices because, again, I connect that I've learned over time the choices that I make right now.
Speaker 3:They got to be clear about how they're going to be in the future and unfortunately we have a tendency to live in the moment and the more traumatized we are, the more we live into the moment, what I call survival stress man Whatever feels good in the moment.
Speaker 3:And we're looking at extreme cases right now with young people, especially young black males, right, with no regards of the consequences, and young people don, especially young black males right, with no regards of no regards of the consequences, and young people don't do that kind of anyway, but it's really bad now, whatever feels good in the moment, because I'm already seeing the end of my life already and I'm, you know, 16, 17 years old, because I got so much death around me of young people that I'm trying to get all I can out of this life, and so I start out with a lot of these young folks, especially in the more depressed areas.
Speaker 3:And that's also true about our middle-class young people. See, we forget about death, right, how much they're struggling emotionally, trying to live up to their parents' ideal of the perfect black child, you know, and not be like the other kids, you know. Do you understand what kind of pressure that put on middle class children in the little suburbia? You know, and you know, and that's why we've seen that increase in suicidal suicide rates in amongst the that 13 to 25 year old, you know. I mean kind of live up to this type of being the perfect black person, which not always works so well, you know you. You know you get too perfect. You know your counterparts will turn on you and not only the white ones.
Speaker 3:Yes absolutely, I absolutely agree with you. Yeah, you know, it's like. You know I'm doing everything I was supposed to do. You know I got to be better than everybody else. You know it's better. You look better than the white folks. No, no, you get too. You know, I call it the curse of excellence.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they change you real quick. Yeah, you know, and see the other crazy thing I don't know where I'm going with all this but the other crazy thing is how we're so focused on white folks. Now we know that the system is corrupt, but it's corrupt for white folks, folks too, but then it's. They're so hoodwinked it's ridiculous and and and and. So the thing is it is that the average white person, at least the ones I deal with they go home. They're not trying to think about us, they're trying to deal with their own struggle in their own house, right, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:But the thing is is you know that whole thing about thinking about how people see us and you know and showing this good side, but a lot of trauma that we experience is done by people who look like us because they're acting out their trauma. You know that was the thing growing up. That was the hardest for me is you know it was like, okay, yeah, white folks. You know they might be sneaky, they might not always tell you the truth or whatever, but you know a lot of the few that were my friends were more consistent and nice to me than some of the folks who said they loved me and it was there for me, because when our trauma triggers, we act out on each other. Right Become crap, yeah.
Speaker 3:And then later on, we're supposed to just accept it right, yeah, you know and talk about you know, accept, except that, you know. You know, brother, I didn't really mean yeah. Well, it don't matter.
Speaker 3:If you meant it, it still hurt yeah and and you'll do it again unless you get a hand on why you did it to start with. Because I've had folks do stuff to me and you ask them why'd you do that? They don't even understand why they did it right, and that's that trauma being triggered up. But you know, like sometimes I do this exercise called once I get my clients to understand what trauma is, kind of separate out the cultural stuff oh, that's what trauma is, and not so much, again, to make them feel bad, but to understand their behavior and understand, coming from where you came from, that behavior made sense, okay. And so we get them to understand the behavior and then we do what we call a trauma tree. You know, we tried to and we and we got and we do a trauma tree.
Speaker 3:Well, not so much trauma tree the trauma tree comes later but what I call the color of trauma. You got the white column and you got the black column, and once you understand the different kind of traumatic things in your life, when you think about them, if you can put them in either the white column or the black column, and so the black column represents black folks, the white column represents the system column, and so the black column represents black folks, the white column represents the system and white folks. Too often the black column is longer, so what do you do with?
Speaker 2:it.
Speaker 3:What do you do with that reality? And see, the thing about healing you can't heal. It's so difficult to heal with a lie and the truth is so painful in the moment it makes it feel like I can't do this right. But I look at healing from trauma like needing knee surgery. Say, you got a bad knee and you know, and it's been bad for a long time, you know, you've been trying to accommodate it, to take, you know you take it easy, or you walk with a cane for a while. And then next thing, you know you go get a scooter, but you could have went on to the doctor, but you're scared of surgery, right. And why are you scared of surgery? Because when you go to surgery you get extreme pain, right. And so you keep putting it off. You keep putting it off, ok, you go see the doctor and you say, doctor, well, you know we probably could do a minor surgery and you'll be fine. And you say, well, ok. And then you say, will it hurt? Well, yeah, it probably will, for at least a week or two, maybe, but you'll be fine after that. Will it hurt really bad? Well, for a day or two you go away. You don't follow through.
Speaker 3:Six months, a year later, you go back, he says, well, now we got to do a little bit more major surgery. Will it hurt? Yeah, how long? Well, probably two or three weeks. Will it really hurt? Bad yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So you know, a year later your significant other partner takes you to the doctor and says we're going to take care of this. You go in, You're almost forced into surgery. You can barely walk, you know, although you had that little nice scooter. You know, because I know people like this right. Yeah, you know. But you get the surgery, cruciating pain, some of the worst pain you ever experienced in your life, for about four weeks. Two months later, you're mad. You know why you're mad Because you were in less pain than you've been in years, but you were so scared of that pain, of doing the work you put off the work and you extended the pain.
Speaker 3:That's what happens when you're trying to work through trauma. The initial part of working through trauma is very painful, especially when you start dealing with the truth right, and that truth is hard when it's bad, and then it gets even harder depending on what kind of abuse you've dealt with and or even worse, depending on who did the abuse right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:You know. But now I get through it and I get to the other side, you know, and as a Black person, give myself permission to disconnect from family that I need to disconnect from, give myself permission to build new family. You know, because all of that, especially in the black community, you know that does all taboo what you mean. You ain't going to deal with Uncle George, no more. What. Uncle George hurt me right In some real ugly ways, right. Uncle George hurt me right In some real ugly ways, right. And then you still want to take Uncle George's side over me for the sake of the family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know. So that process and that truth, that full truth, not the half, the truth, not the truth, that's comfortable Initially. It's, like you know, for Black folks, bad things have happened and they're still happening, but we don't have the option to stop and heal. We have to heal. At the same time we are being under attack. Nobody should have to do that, but we don't have no other choice and we have to start being honest about how our trauma gets in the way of us even being able to be in relationship with each other in a healthy way, in a larger way.
Speaker 2:So you talk about the pain of healing. I am curious to know from you what are some of the things you mentioned earlier that men are not able or some black men have to, having experienced so much trauma and able to receive or accept love. Tell me what are some of the tools Like. What do you do in a case you know, in cases such as this, how do you teach them now to start receiving love?
Speaker 3:Well, the thing is, it's like any other process, right? How do you first of all get them to understand, you know, what is trauma, right? Okay, what is trauma versus what's not? What you know like in the group? And again, when I'm talking about this stuff, it's so organic, especially once you get people to really understand what is trauma versus culture, or even what is trauma, and how does it relate to culture, my belief in culture, right?
Speaker 3:What is love versus what is codependency? Right? You know, I very seldom allow my guys to even have a conversation about love, okay, Because the thing is is what I found, and it makes sense as a community and the way we had to, you know, navigate this experience called America. What I found, that a lot of times, what they describe as love, is codependency, because we're a codependent people, you know, and it comes out of that collective ideal. We need each other to make it. Where do you find your individuality in that? Where are you allowed to find your individuality in that, right? We're even talking about simple individuality in that, though. Where are you allowed to find your individuality in that, right? We're even talking about simple individuality, right? You know, it's like a brother decides to go uh, uh, downhill skiing, and then having somebody tell well, we know, black folks don't do that, well, I do it because I'm more than just being a black man, you know, I'm not gonna forget I'm a black man, because you and the world ain't going to let me forget that first of all.
Speaker 3:But that whole piece of how do you allow people to have individuality and still, you know, be part of the collective when it's healthy? See, I heard that key word be part of the collective. So it's like a process that I heard that keyword be part of the collective. So it's like a process that I can't even explain it. All I know is, once you get folks to realize, spell out these math and recognize what is trauma versus what is culture, and that it's okay to be an individual, from that point on they're on a different, they're on a different road and they're more open to new ideals, no matter who. It is right, you know, they're open to new ideals even from a white person. They're open to new ideals even from a non-conforming person or a gay person. You know, they're open to ideas even from their women.
Speaker 3:Right, there's so, there's, there's so much containment that is done because of this trauma and this fear of somebody might find it out that I'm a fraud. You know. You know we talk about that in terms of, you know, imposter syndrome, in terms of, you know, working in the field of our work. There's imposter syndrome, even within our own community. Right, we talk about double consciousness, dw Du Bois, talking about how you got to be in a white surroundings and understanding versus a black surrounding. Think about this.
Speaker 3:Triple consciousness is I got to figure out how I'm going to be in any surrounding without being called being too white, because I'm doing all the things necessary in the environment that I work in or the people I hang out with are being seen too black in some communities, and that's not even just the white community, right. And so when do I just get to be me? Yeah, okay, and I've been lucky by accident, because, again, I didn't plan none of this, I didn't go to school for none of this. I just kind of worked it out and figured out how to put it together, to present it. But you know, what did my wife say the other day? She says you just don't care. I do care, I actually care deeply, right, but I can't allow thinking about what you think of me to dictate my life, because it's too confining.
Speaker 3:Right, take my life because it's too confining, right, you know? And that's one of those things, because of our experience here of being trying to prove to this white, dysfunctional society that I'm okay and I belong here. Think about the history, the history of America. Black folks have fought in every war America been involved in to prove that they're OK and they believe in America.
Speaker 3:Right To come back from a war and be treated like second class citizens and in 1919, be hung in the uniform, a United States Army uniform because the good old boys in the community they were in said don't you wear it again in public, because back in World War I I think they kind of changed it in World War II I'm not sure they could keep their rifles that was given to them. So them brothers came back armed. You know, you never know what's going to trick me Like the second guy said oh, and the good old boys said, oh, really, now that same uniform that I'm told that I'm for, the respect you hung black men, native men, latino men in and then you want to have this pompous attitude about that uniform and that flag. Right, and out of my patriarchy patriotism. I challenge that's what America is about.
Speaker 3:I challenge the ideal because because of these contradictions, and then you find a way to punish me for that when I help fight for that right, right, so you know, I can't, I can't, you know, so you know it means that I don't have a whole well, I don't need a whole bunch of friends because they're costly, you know, and you know. And like you don't like me, you don't like me, I guess. But that whole thing of needing to be needed, that's the like I was mentioning before, the codependency of the Black community, and when folks let go of that and you see people who let go of that, they do well, right, you know, need to be loved, need to be liked, so they're like ooh, nasty, nasty.
Speaker 2:So this stuff it's what you often describe as if they don't let it go. It's generational trauma, right. It now passes down from one generation to the next. And you did talk about healing starts, or healing beginning with the truth, right. How is it that? How do we get individuals to now then begin to take accountability for their own healing when, as we know, as a community, it's hard for even for us to even acknowledge that we do need healing?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, it's hard Because as a community, see, the thing is, as a community, you're right, we have difficulties with that, right. But what I realized, if you give, if you help people indirectly, you know, one of the things is some things you can't get done because folks can't handle that direct shot. Yeah, when I deal with the white community around racism and all that, I don't use terms like white supremacy and all those other kinds of terms, because as soon as you start using those terms, they feel some kind of way and then they spend all their time trying to prove that they ain't racist and all that. And I could give a darn less. We all got a little. We got a little bit of something somewhere that I don't want to spend my time. So that's why I talk about history when I do my trainings, and then you decide what you want to do with that history, right, and so, with my guys, I just help them, I educate them about words, concepts and then, indirectly, they connect the dots for themselves, words, concepts, and then, indirectly, they connect the dots for themselves.
Speaker 3:You know, like this term that you know, especially educated men and particularly educated Black men get upset about, is this toxic masculinity? You know, ooh, you know, and like a lot of my guys from the inner city, they don't hear that term, that often they don't realize that there's people kind of judging them on that term, right. And so we talk about the term, we break the term down, we talk about the behavior. We don't talk about them, we talk about the behavior. And then later on what they'll do is they'll think about what you said, because nobody's talking to them, because they're just existing. They wake up one day they might have a plan right and they've been doing the plan wrong forever, so they fail and they get disappointed. And then they're always starting over, okay, but when they start connecting the dots, you know. And then, once they start connecting the dots, if you explain, you know the characteristics and that kind of stuff, because you're not saying you are this, no, this is what this looks like, what do you think you know? And indirectly they'll come back and they'll say you know, mr Sims, I thought about that description you gave and, and, and. When I was sitting with myself I realized that's me, okay, and then we can. Then went from there we can talk about okay, why wouldn't that be you?
Speaker 3:Think about how you were raised. Think about your role model or think about the fact that you know this, because if he didn't have a father in the house, that don't mean he didn't have no male role model. See, that all or nothing kind of crap makes me sick, you know, because the data has shown black men, more so than any other man, even if they don't live in the house, have some contact at a higher level with their children, if they live in a house or not, than other communities, right? So that whole idea of how we want to look at family, you know, yeah, if you have the opportunity to have what you call the stereotypical family, which has not always been healthy for children, or at least their mamas, okay, then we, you know, then you do that, then you know, because you know again, I was raised with both parents. Some of the trauma I feel almost as similar as the trauma that the men who didn't grow up with their father feel.
Speaker 2:So so you know, like I was, as I was getting ready for this conversation, even though we talked, I was going through like one of my notes from where notes from one of our initial meetings when I was with the organization, and I remember hearing you said that when African-American men suffer directly and indirectly, they pass that trauma down to women and children in their lives, so thus enabling a cycle of pain, pain and continuous I would say tenfold trauma and suffering within the community. I remember I wrote that down because it was really a profound statement to me and I wanted to, kind of, you know, delve into that a little bit more. Would you then, in this case, infer that the Black community especially, that the trauma in women and girls starts with unhealed men? Now say that again yeah, would you say that in the Black community, the trauma in women and girls does it start with unhealed men?
Speaker 3:Does it start with unhealed men? Not necessarily. I mean, the thing is, is when we're talking about women and girls? That's an interesting question. Let me see how I can best answer that. So we live in a patriarchy system, right. So because of that, what happens with the man, especially what happens to that black man, gets all the focus, at least especially in the past, for sure. Right, when black women would sacrifice their lives to protect that black man and to boast his position in America. Right, because again, we're talking about a white male patriarchal system that says you know you should be the head of the house, you know the man you know should take the lead.
Speaker 3:We know, when we understand slavery and Jim Crow, that white males went out of their way to let black male know you do not have no power whatsoever over your family, your life and your children, right.
Speaker 3:So so much of that ended up being revolved around that Black male because of that patriarchy, right and so, and so that piece has been the center.
Speaker 3:But over time, that trauma is not just specifically in terms of the male, but again, for so long, you know, again, if I say, for example, if you're a black woman and maybe you're smarter than the black man, right, you know you couldn't. You went out of your way not to make that too seen publicly, out of your way not to make that too seen publicly, right? I mean, if we think about, you know, even the civil rights movement, the women behind a lot of those men that we elevate were smarter than them, matter of fact, or the ideals they were carrying were those Black women, ok. And so that patriarchy kind of thing has forced us to make that male in his existence the nucleus of of happiness, right, when he might not be happy, nobody going to be happy, right. And but again, we, but we cannot ignore the fact that that relationship of moms and daughter, right. So if my, if my mother's focus is on on my father or on my brothers, because we're talking about males, where do I fit as this female?
Speaker 3:Where do I fit Right? And where do I fit when I'm doing all the right stuff and I'm not getting that nurturing Right? Or where do I fit if you know something? Some sexual assault happened by one of our male relatives and saving face for him is more important than saving me, ok? So when you ask you know that whole thing around the fathers and that kind of stuff I just think it's around them things of saving face, saving face.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The codependency about being liked and how you're being seen and how you're being portrayed in the world. And then, if we talk about the nucleus of a lot of our communities around religion, what was that? Patriarchy, again, religion, patriarchy, right. And the secrets, right. The family and community secrets, yes. And how do you live? And when you live with secrets and babies see, it's difficult for babies to handle secrets, you know, and then you can and some of the babies don't never learn how to handle the secrets right End up with more depression or being alienated because they couldn't handle the secrets.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, so many of us are burdened with carrying our family secrets or things that have happened to us. How is our trauma showing up? You know from your observation. How is trauma showing up in women and how much different is it from the boys.
Speaker 3:Well, there's data that says boys and girls are affected by trauma different right and at different ages. Right, you know, with the girls there's this, this kind of seething anger for some, especially with black girls, the seething anger that you will see periodically, that they get punished for, you know, that kind of thing at the piece where they just gotta contain who they are for the good of the family and the image, and so they end up having to carry a lot of those secrets, I think to some degree a little bit more than boys, and I could be wrong about that because boys carry their kind of secrets too, right, they make their own secrets because they gotta mask themselves in this ideal with masculinity. Right, you know, they got these emotional secrets right Because boys, especially Black men, or men in general, black men, are very sensitive. They're extremely sensitive, right, and they're sensitive at a level of danger, right, easily triggered. You know you can hurt their feelings very easily and they have no way of expressing it and then if it gets too overwhelming, they become dangerous to themselves and people close to them.
Speaker 3:You know we talk about our girls. You know they have a little bit more where, you know, know they might find a woman that they can because, you know, help them through. But what I see a lot with this lot of uh, mother daughter kind of stress with a lot of the black women I've dealt with, you know, emotional competition with them around the men in their houses, you know where, know, because a lot of men will treat their daughters very differently than they treat their boy, and so you'll see this emotional, this emotional competition that goes on in the house with the daughter and the mama and the daughter's like trying to figure out what the hell is going on with mama and it kind of goes on off and on.
Speaker 3:And then I've seen black women, when their mamas pass, all of a sudden become a new person, which is sad in some way, right. So there's love, hate kind of stuff. Or, you know, if the mama is so into this new man and and just blind to the way that man is treating her daughter, that kind of stuff because of her need to be loved and that neediness kind of deal. So you've got just different versions. And then you've got this new woman that, because they just refuse to be hurt and they're just nasty, I mean they're going through dudes and dudes can't handle a woman who can out dude him. Right, yeah, I mean and and and and. When I say out dude him, look at him and said like you know, yeah, you was a good piece.
Speaker 3:Go home, you know, and dude's been doing that right, and I mean again which is which makes them even more dangerous because of that sensitivity, that over the top sensitivity that they have, I mean real sensitive right, and so that this generation, now some of them to their own, and see the problem is, is they take it so far, they lose out on their own personality because they still want to be loved, right. They still want to be loved, right. But when you have this kind of hardness to keep yourself safe, if you ran into somebody who wants to show you that kind of nurturing, want to do nice things for you and, you know, be there for you, you know, by the time you figure out what happened, if dude is halfway healthy, he gone, you know, and so even that's a trauma response. So you have these anytime you go to. These extremes are trauma responses and not trying to find a comfortable middle is where the, where I think the healing is at yeah, sounds like I need to go to therapy.
Speaker 3:Um, I remember when, uh I thought that's what you were trying to sneak in and do. Trying to hang out with me was trying to do some free therapy. I'm just going to let you know I've been watching.
Speaker 2:I know you've been watching because I've been asking. I was just going to mention that when I wrote my book Cake Therapy how Baking Changed my Life, you told me like, after hearing the background and the story, you were like, ah, that explains a lot of things, because I was working right. I kept on doing things and I feel like I'm still in that space, mr Simmons, that I'm still keeping myself seriously busy. Talk to us a little bit about that response.
Speaker 3:Well, I learned around. I recognized that response. Doing my work in the pain clinic. I used to work with people teaching them how to live with physical pain the same program. I went in and met their therapist and I started working for them and one of the things I noticed that how people would deal with their trauma and this is across the board, didn't matter black, white, purple was perfectionism, caretaking and workaholism and basically those were physical ways and intellectual ways to stay busy, not to deal with their trauma.
Speaker 3:Okay, not to deal with their trauma. You know, Okay, Because as long as they stay busy and not have that quiet time, they wouldn't be so burdened with feeling bad about what happened and feeling sad. So they keep busy all the time. Right, and that perfectionism usually came out of trying from a kid, trying to prove that they're worthy of apparent love. You know that kind of stuff Because a lot of our clients came out of homes.
Speaker 3:Their background was either some alcoholic home, some abuse, domestic violence was in their family when they were growing up and that was their way of trying to survive that as a child. You know, if I do things perfectly, maybe my father won't beat my mother or maybe my mother will pay me attention. Or if I work and make money, at least I can make money Right. And so, you know, because I'm more comfortable at work than I'm at home, or I'm more comfortable at work than I am even with my family. And then caretaking makes me feel good when I take care of other people, and it also keeps me from thinking about myself, Because a lot of the people in the caring profession they're some broken folks. Mm-hmm, yeah, I see.
Speaker 2:Yep, you know what, you know what you know. What that brought to me is that it does explain why, when I was on bed rest with Kennedy and couldn't work, work, work anymore and started just begging and sitting, still where my trauma resurfaced. Right, you know, and I think it does make sense that I just kept going. And here's the thing I am still going because, one, I'm dealing with the trauma of grief and loss, with, you know, my mom being in a nursing home right now and dealing with the trauma of grief and loss from having lost, like relatives, because I decided to take my own healing in my hands and started telling some truth. So you know, it does make a lot of sense.
Speaker 3:Well, but again, you know what's different now than in the past. Yeah, you can recognize it. Yes, even though it might be uncomfortable and painful at times is much better than not being able to recognize it any longer. At least you can talk about it, okay, you know, and then you can check it. Right, you got something to check it off on, right, and and that way the process will move a little bit quicker. Yeah, because there's such a thing, the healing process. It won't stop you, you know you keep grinding along. You keep grinding along Because, I mean, you done slowed down in your own little special way, but you're able to check it with yourself. See, that's the thing, having those, not being afraid to have them conversations with myself. Oh, that's why I'm feeling like this. Okay, I still feel a little bad, but it still feels better to understand and then I'm not crazy Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm definitely not crazy, well okay, if you say I'm definitely not crazy, well okay. Yes, you say I'm definitely not crazy at all, but you know, I really found solace in baking, and through baking. Baking really definitely unearthed some of the things that really happened to me, but definitely it's one of the things that healed me. What I've discovered, then, though, is that I'm I journey, oh, I'm taking stock of my life, like, like you say, recognizing when the things are happening and owning them. So I own them by jotting them down, like this is happening, and I recognize it. So here's what I need to do, right?
Speaker 3:do you?
Speaker 2:think, and I talk about baking. Baking is my jam. You know, you've had my cake. You know telling people how tasty that carrot cake is. It's okay. No more carrot cake, then okay.
Speaker 3:No, it was very good. It was very, very good.
Speaker 2:There we go. Thank you very much. Um. Do you think, though, baking what I promote in in my foundation is baking as a support, an alternate, you know, to talk therapy. What are your thoughts? Do you think baking, or any other art forms you know, would be an effective pairing with talk therapy for trauma victims or giving them an outlet to express themselves? Tell me your thoughts around the alternatives.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, the thing is, if you're doing stuff not to think about something, it could be harmful. You know, in terms of being stuck, you know, like I talked about the workaholism, but you were able to connect the dots with the baking and what led to the baking and, within that, connect down easier, right, you know. And so now, in terms of what you're doing, now you know, it's like, you know doing collective baking, right, say, you bring some girls together and we all make a cake and you talk about well, talk to me, you know, you know and see, because one of the things about doing two, you know, keeping your hands moving and talking at the same time. Sometimes it's a little bit more comfortable. You know, it's like when people do therapy groups, they found that like you got little rubber balls and you keep your hands moving and then you talk at the same time. So you being able to connect the dots through something you've learned to enjoy is just another method, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, but it's not being used as a method to run away, but to run to right, that's the run to yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's the key, you know, and so that's the big. I think that's the big difference, you know, it's like you know, and so that's the big. I think that's the big difference, you know, it's like you know. People who exercise you know, I've known people who are, you know, in great health exercise. But the thing is is they're just, they're not dealing with no trauma, right, they're just all physical, because a lot of people in the pain clinic were very healthy. Problem is, when they were, they were so active, they got injured and they would never let their body heal. They was always to the extreme and not connecting those dots that you got to allow yourself to heal physically, emotionally and spiritually.
Speaker 2:And connecting these dots. What would be, as we're winding down this very, I would say, substantial conversation? I've enjoyed it and I hope our listeners have. What would be your one piece of advice to our listeners about addressing their own personal trauma? What is the first step that they need to do?
Speaker 3:Not to be afraid to know right. You know I mentioned this term a trauma tree and it's weird as it all get out when you think about it. One of the things I've learned in terms of when I started learning about trauma and then is I, you know, because you know, because sometimes, especially family trauma, you get angry. You sometimes you don't know how to forgive and that kind of stuff. But what helped me with that was a trauma tree, getting information on, like, my parents trauma, and I was lucky enough to learn some information about my parents trauma and my grandparents trauma, which made me understand. Yeah, what they did was uncomfortable, might not have been right, but when you thought of, when you figured out what they went through, they did the best they knew how.
Speaker 3:Because one of the areas that seemed to be difficult in the Black community is forgiveness. As Christian, as we want to say we are, there's a lot of us who have a hard time with forgiveness Right, as we want to say we are, there's a lot of us who have a hard time with forgiveness right, and that forgiveness is really about me moving on. You know it don't change nothing because you know, ironically, when I was allowed to have a feeling of forgiveness with my mother and father. It really upset. They didn't know how to handle that.
Speaker 3:Well, sammy Jr ain't angry, no more. No, no, no, I just, you know, y'all did the best y'all could and I accept that. You know, and I live my life, you know, with that acceptance, now just allow me to live my life and you accepting me to live my life the way I live it. Right, and you know, so that was so. That trauma tree is an interesting, you know, because we got all this stuff about roots and you know, looking at our roots, well there's. If you look at that trauma tree, you start understanding why they don't make it right. I mean, it ain't wrong, but it make it make sense. The whole thing is make it make sense, and that it's not all you.
Speaker 2:I think that's the biggest piece yeah, it's not all you and not being afraid to know. I think those are key points to end this conversation. Before we go, I want Mr Simmons to tell us what's next for him. What can we expect?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I got my yearly conference coming up in June and hopefully we might have a book out this year before the end of the year. And you know, after that we'll just see what happens. You know, because other than that I'm going on a good vacation somewhere.
Speaker 2:Tell us about share the name of the conference and the date.
Speaker 3:Well. Community Empowerment Through Black Men Healing June 20th and 21st here in Minnesota. We're hoping to be able to stream parts of it out during the conference. We're still working that out, but you can go to brothershealingcom or samuelsimmonsconsultingcom to get more information.
Speaker 2:So thank you, mr Simmons, for joining us. This has been an amazing conversation, as usual. I enjoy these talks and I'm happy that you get to share you with our listeners and I'm happy that they get to share you with our listeners and I'm happy that they get to hear a bit of you, and I'm hoping some of our listeners will be at this conference that's coming up in June and, of course, there is going to be a book out this year. So thank you again, mr Simmons, for joining us, and this has been your Cake Therapy Podcast, your slice of joy and healing, and I hope that you're taking away a lot of goodies. You probably got a cake pop out of this. You probably got a cake out of this, but I am happy to have shared this great man with you. So thank you for joining us. Thank you. Today's mindful moment is every recipe is a love letter written in flavors. Cook with care and savor each word.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning in to the Cake Therapy Podcast. Your support means the world to us. Let us know what you thought about today's episode in the comment section. Remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and if you found the conversation helpful, please share it with a friend. Also, follow Sugar Spoon Desserts on all social media platforms. We invite you to support Cake Therapy and the work we do with our foundation by clicking on the Buy Me A Coffee link in the description or by visiting the Cake Therapy website and making a donation. All your support will go towards the Cake Therapy Foundation and the work we are doing to help women and girls. Thanks again for tuning in and we'll catch you on the next episode.