How Technology is Revolutionizing Eyecare from Virtual Try-On to Dry Eye Treatments

A discussion with Michelle Cereo about new technologies and the new legislation being introduced in the state of PA. How we are leading the way and the opportunities and challenges ahead for opticians within the eyecare industry are fully on the plate in PA. We have spent a bunch of our own time as a group, member and non-members of the Opticians Association of PA, all came together to craft the future of opticians in eyecare for the state and hopefully to make a blueprint of how other states can follow along.

Talk with Peter Precht: www.eyecclearly.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to another episode of Optometry Profits Revealed. I'm your host, Peter Precht, and today I'm with Michelle Sario. Michelle No, you're fine. You're fine. So I'm doing wonderful. Michelle is a New York licensed dispensing optician. She did her apprentice work in 14 to 16. But you've got 20 plus years in the industry. You explained to me that your aunt had an optical in New York and you were working probably before you were supposed to be working. Michelle is a co-owner of the Dry Eye Center, and she also manages Me Path Vision in Potstown. That's since 21. You're on the board of the Optician Association of Pennsylvania, the legislative committee, which both of us have been a part of, as well as Danielle Kral, to kick things around. Without any further ado, Michelle, nice to see you here and nice to talk about the fun stuff that we're going to get into. We went into a few rabbit holes a few minutes ago. We'll kind of talk about what you know what's important and what we're looking to accomplish, uh, certainly here in PA.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Absolutely. It's nice to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

So if you have a chance, you know, talk to me about one of the very first things that that took me took me when I met you was how passionate you are about audition work and the future. And obviously you grew up in this environment. Talk about that move. Talk about the work that you did uh with your aunt and then on your own and then move into uh Pennsylvania right after the pandemic or even during it.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Um yeah, so my aunt had her had her own shop, and I I started with her from answering phones and doing INRs to even like frame styling. So started very early on, started just falling in love with it, I guess. There was something kind of nice about watching a little kid C for the first time, and you see that and you see it, and you're like, oh my God, like that's so cool. I want to like, how do you do that? How did you do it? It almost seems magic when you're young. Um, so when she did that, I was like 16, 17, still in school. So graduated, went to college. Um when I was doing that, uh I came back to it. I ended up settling for a job, I think at Walmart was like my first kind of optical outside as a sales associate. And I didn't do um in New York, you have to be licensed. So it was pretty much frame styling and it was learning to put orders into the computer and learning about prescriptions, learning about, you know, just the fascination of what does myopia mean? What does that entail? So I started to get digested into those things because again, can't do anything optically. Like as an optician, it's all just learning. Um, and then from there, I went into a private practice um because I was like, I don't really like they base everything off commission. And I was like, um, like I can't do anything. I'm just I'm just answering phones and making appointments, like I want to do more. So I went into private practice as a tech.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

And that's see that that's a really good pathway. You very, very busy, hectic in a in a Walmart environment. And then the tech aspect gives you the behind the scenes. I'm always a fan of people either doing optometric tech work or even lab tech work where you're edging prior to selling. If you can. I'm a big fan of that. So talk about that. How did you guys how did you meet John?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Um, so I actually met John anything to do with optical. He is um, we met randomly by by happenstance through a mutual friend at a casino.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Um and he's your business partner. He is, yes, part partner in crime, and he's the president of the Optician Association of Pennsylvania. Yes. And he was just in Chicago. Uh he's not here to talk about it, but tell tell me what tell me how that went.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Um Yeah, we met right before COVID, like actually during COVID, like the beginning of COVID in February of 26. And um, we talked about, like we just said hi, like just again, it met in passing. And I want to say a couple months later, he had we reconnected somehow, like ran into each other in Syracuse. He doesn't live in Syracuse, but his friends are there, um, and started talking about businesses. He was looking to get into a different business adventure. He does like technology.

unknown 4:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

And so I started telling him about my, you know, how I worked in a private practice and optical and I managed for a while, and I wanted to go into business for myself. And the conversation started, and that's kind of how we became, you know, partners in crime. I manage his offices. Uh, we've, you know, we found it in 2021, and he took over in November of 21, uh, formerly Dr. Ruskowitz's office, now New Path Vision, and I've been running it ever since. And then we linked up with Dr. Diana Cho, who wanted to specialize in dry eye, and we built the dry eye center together with the three of us, and we've been doing that for probably six or seven months now, building that practice, getting credentialed. Um, it is in the same building as New Path Vision. So just perfect.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

The so smart.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Uh and and needed. Um, and and her expertise coming into the mix with that.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Oh my god, she's she is, I believe, POA chapter president for I think it's like chapter seven or something. She's got like five or six counties. So she she is so passionate about what she does. She's just a huge uh she's just a great ass. She's such a good person, but she's an amazing doctor. Like I every patient raves about her. It's amazing. She's she's an amazing doctor.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

I can't even she's probably seen the early on stages of the struggle uh of some of the discomforts of dry eye and people not understanding that eye watering is part of dry eye. I think that the things that are complicated or a little convoluted. To connect those dots for people to have been along that journey. Yeah, that is there's a relationship there that that's awesome. You mentioned uh the leadership as well, which is huge. I very, very helpful in my mind. Um look I like to talk about technology and I like to talk about good, bad, and ugly experiences. Talk about some tech uh from from your earlier days straight on through to now that you see implemented that you're you know may or may not uh know a whole lot versus in terms of experience. I know we had talked about the stylist lens and how you know really opticians haven't had a chance to be immersed in it yet. It's just it's only just now being prescribed. So talk talk about something that that that's that's wowed you or something that has not wowed you.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Um, okay, so I mean technology's advanced greatly. Like again, we talk about how I started as a tech to start when I started my career and having to bring a patient into a big dark room to do a visual field, and that machine took up half of the room. Now our visual field is like a headset device that they put on like a virtual reality. Like, to me, that's amazing. Um, so in that aspect, it's nice. They're sitting in the comfort of the exam chair, or they're sitting, you know, in a in a different kind of room. You can have any type of room. It doesn't have to be that cold room with a big machine humming at you. Um, so technology is it like I think it's great. We have devices out there that help frame style if a patient if a person doesn't have a friend or family with them. Um, online stores. We um had an online store at one point that we were testing where our inventory was uploaded and patients could try it on in real time. They could pick frames out, they could come in and it was tailored to them.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

I think that's really wonderful. You mentioned uh that 3D technology as well, which is very cool for somebody who can't get there. So, you know, it's nice for uh uh somebody the scenarios that I always tend to think of when I think of the 3D uh virtual trial kit capabilities, or for instance, a caregiver. Or maybe there's a you know, maybe there's a child or the power of attorney's a state or two away. And you don't know. Well, they may appear to look that way, but when you can see the 3D image of their head to the best of the ability, I think that's that's such a cool tool, so that that person knows that they're gonna get glasses and you know, mom or dad or aunt or uncle's gonna look the right way. Yeah, you know, you don't want it to be, you know, just uh, you know, here's a picture, you know, or here's you know well it was nice.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

You could take snapshots so you could see them. Um, and then they could send a message to us like, hey, I really like this frame. Does it cut, you know, does it come in any colors? Would be a question I got, or hey, with my insurance, what are my out-of-pockets? I'd like to duplicate what I had before in terms of lenses. So can you help me give a price quote? So I was able to price quote them. They didn't even have to come in the office, they didn't have to be on a phone. Um, it was done through email, so not quite chat, which would be an amazing setting to do in real time, but we got to email, so they still didn't have to come in, but it still was done at their convenience.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Right. And and a lot of those things are getting ironed out. You know, I know some of these partnerships are taking place, you know. No question, you know, we're we have a lot of open doors to that type of relationship. Because, you know, any way that you can speed that up or any front-end way of eliminating some type of a remake in those scenarios, because that's technology that works really well for those folks, but doesn't always work so well behind the scenes. If somebody sees a PD or a prescription or a face, and they're like, uh, that's not gonna work real well, you know. That's again, it's an opportunity. It's not it's not necessarily a place to be upset or angry about something. It's a way to examine, hey, let's kick this around pillar to post and talk about what will work in what way for who.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Yeah, yeah, great.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

You know, and and and who it helps, you know, at the end of the day, it's got to be an easy experience for the opticians and any practice that's involved with it as well. Um, you mentioned inventory management with that. Um would you would you say that was a good or a bad? And I don't know, I'm not calling anyone out here particularly, but that's I've heard that that becomes a little bit of a daunting task. Like initially it might go well, but the management thereafter is a little bit of a trick. Does that sound true?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Or yeah, because it it you have to send so the way it worked with our the technology we used, we had to send them our inventory. So we had to pull it off of our system. And if you don't upkeep it, if you're not sending them the inventory on a regular basis, which life happens and sometimes you forget, maybe you can't you also can't do it every day because it takes them a day or two to implement that back into your um online store. So the the cons of that would be it's not updated, updating in real time, it's not pulling from your inventory. So people may be picking and choosing frames before their appointment that you don't have available anymore because they may have sold or you may have used them for a warranty, or maybe they got discontinued in that time and got sent back by the rep and it just wasn't updated in our system. So that that kind of is a con. I mean, granted, you can still order it, but it's not there when they're ready to walk in the door when they're picking them out the night before or the morning of.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Well, and if we didn't have the frequency of discontinued great sellers, oh my gosh, this frame's selling wonderful. Let's discontinued, you know. How many times do we want to grab a frame company by the by the throat and say, stop doing that?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

But but that's you know, if that was less of an issue, you know, and and I'm not suggesting to rewind to 1965 where there's six styles and eight eight eye sizes of the you know, the six styles, that's not what I mean. But there is something to that. How coming and going makes it, you know, uh it almost makes it so inventory management has become a a job sector of what we do. I mean, if you could figure out a way to make that really cool and seamless for people, I think that would kick butt. Oh, yeah. Obviously, understock is an issue, and you know, what's under, you know, what's sitting underneath the counter isn't gonna sell and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

But no, but it's listed under your inventory, too.

unknown 13:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

If you're doing it online with the store, so if you're putting it in your street, yep.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I just have this vision of like somebody who's not in optical showing up to Dr. Bob's place at like six or seven, and they just walk in with a thing, they lay down, and there's a couple of drones that come out, and you just go scan all the boards and they land again and they calculate inventory, and the dude leaves, you know. I mean, that would be that would be great. Yeah, that would be kind of cool. As soon as we unify our barcode system, you know, that's you know, we're basically there, you know. But I to me, those are the types of of tools and utilizations that can take place because you know, you've got something that could work really well, but there ends up being a regular management system as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So, how is that going to integrate with what you're able to do and how you're able to move that technology forward? So it's a great idea, but maybe a little clunky still on the ground in terms of implementation and how to get seamless with what's new and what's discontinued or gone or done or that kind of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Um I know from you know, you mentioned visual fields, which I think is really, really cool. But, you know, there's technology that uh really, you know, very simple technologies that that have popped up recently. Even even um there's a there's a type of tonopet where it just very lightly is is actually tapping back and forth on the i I I just recently saw this product and I was kind of blown away, you know, how people are okay with that as opposed to an airpuff. You know, nobody likes a surprise airpuff test, but having that little hit in your you know, it's like they call it little butterfly kisses.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

It uh we we have one of the devices and and new path vision. So uh yeah, it is it's amazing because there, you know, it's this is different, it's not the puff of air, you know, you're not gonna feel that that that wind gust in your face, but you'll feel a little bit like a little bit of a wisp of something.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Well, it seems so much more tolerable, even for people that are that are flinch oriented. It's it's a yeah, I don't know. No, it is you're right. That is amazing design for someone like me who anything getting close to my eye, and I'm like, you know, no, you know, you know, putting a contact lens and taking it out is not a fun experience, uh you know, with me, you know. And I guess the meat hasn't been enough to to to dive into that. But I don't know, if to me, technology heading in in those directions that make that experience better for somebody, and obviously that tool is profitable because the act the measurements are extremely accurate, unless you're hitting an eyelash or something like that. It's expensive.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

It's hard to accurate.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Right, exactly. Yeah, so you you know what your pressures are and it can be very easily documented you know from a technician uh standpoint. Um let's talk a little bit about the legislation, how how it it came about, um the the some of the discussions that Danielle and you and I have had, some of the open discussions that we've had. Um I I think I just want to tip our hat to the entire group for kicking everything from pillar to post, good, bad, ugly, upside down, in and out. Um our state couldn't be more different. Harrisburg's pretty darn different from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh to Scranton and Wilkesbury. I mean, it the the regions differ. And how they care for, you know, from a I care in terms of an optician level, unifying that without upsetting the Apple cart. If we can do that and then embed education going forward, I think that that's a wonderful thing. But my main question to you, because we've talked a little bit about this, talk about licensure, talk about steps towards it, talk about good, bad, ugly. No, talk about it in New York.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Um I mean this the steps of New York for me, it there's two paths, right, for a licensure. You can either go to a community college um and get a two-year degree and then um pass your ABO, and then you have to take a state practical, or you can take the route which I took, which is a two-year apprenticeship under a doctor or a licensed optician. Um, I think I was under both. At least I know I was a doctor, and then I switched to an optician uh part way through. But um, you do two years full-time. Um, you have to get your ABO in that two years, you have to complete the career progression program in that two years. And then once that two years is complete, not before, but after, then you have to take a state practical, which is a like a hands-on kind of test. So it's it's different from our ABO, which is you know that a test you take, uh, you know, multiple choice test. This is a hands-on practical where you're you're sitting in front of two people grading you on your knowledge of your fields and your craft and whether you're able to successfully fit glasses, neutralize glasses, and repair glasses.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Right. And diagnose a problem and a step-by-step uh way of working through it. Which, again, that practical part, you know, for places that don't implement it and use it, and and I I'm not quite sure how how we'll end up doing it here. Um, but the cool thing is that I think the work that we're doing, but even putting this together, is going to blossom uh up education opportunities for hands-on.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

So there'll be those education opportunities and there'll be sponsorships and there'll be opportunities to talk to very specific situations. You know, right now, even an optometrist, if they want to watch edging take place, they they have to have a connection, it has to be a small part of their their practical, you know, like and it's a small part. Many of them are just putting in time, they're not interested in talking, some seeing someone talk about glasses or seeing a lens get edged. But even if there is a little interest there, it's not part of their schooling after that.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

No, during it is so my office actually houses first years and externs. So first year is optician. So I've had a couple um externs reach out to me and ask to do their first year rotation with me. Um, so it's kind of nice they get to see like a little piece of the puzzle of what we do, but it is a very small piece because once they come back for their third and fourth year rotations, nothing to do with optics at that point. It's all about patient care and and you know, being a doctor.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Well, and that's what they're being taught, and that's what they're learning. And that's what even from an instrumentation standpoint, uh, the the optometric practice of today that wants to be modern is investing in um beautification products. You know, how are we gonna wipe those wrinkles away? How are we gonna do this or that, or you know, because it's it's part of what it's part of what's associated with what they do. And uh, you know, it's they obviously weren't experts at Botox, but we we know the implications and use of Botox are different than they were even 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

So, you know, there there's you know, there's there's uses for medications that that end up being a little different. I I can't remember that I think it was called Latisse. It was some medicine a few years ago, and the unintended effector was how long your lashes became, and you know, so there was all of a sudden there's another revenue of uh you know potential income that runs into play. And we're framing eyes, so that this is all gonna end up close to one another in one way or another. So but that's what they're seeing as they're going through and wrapping up and going out of school. They're they're they're not talking about it, they're not teaching them about the the the practicality of doing what you do. Uh running a running a practice is very, very, very different situation than it is uh seeing patients. And yes. And I'm not I'm not making one better than the other. They're just very different roles.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

And they're very, very different seats.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Um yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Uh so talk briefly. Have you had a chance to talk to John about the since the UOA? John is your business partner. We just kind of mentioned him earlier. Uh, you know, kind of stumbled into that, but I know that he was there. Uh it looks like they had a great uh uh conference. I know he had something to to say. What did he talk about very briefly?

SPEAKER_00 21:54

So he was on the advocacy panel um talking about um, I believe the legislation. That we're putting through. I have not, to be honest with you, had a chance to recap with him about what happened over the weekend. I was supposed to go, but unfortunately, I do have a high-risk pregnant employee. So we're on baby call like any day now. So I couldn't go. I also um had to coach softball all weekend. So I didn't get to go. And we just, I just finished coaching a couple hours ago. So we have not recapped what happened. I'm excited to hear. I'm probably gonna touch base with them at some point tomorrow to just kind of hear how everything went. So I haven't, I don't know just yet.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

It looks like they had a fantastic conference. I thought the array of people that they invited and um invited to engage, speak, talk about a lot of different things, you know, everything from tela to essentially come in together.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

That's the biggest thing that I see is consistent, and I do want to tip my hat to what I have seen. Uh, you know, I I I can have a little bit of a critical eye. Uh and that that's perfectly okay. But but as long as we're heading in the same direction, we want the same goals, you know, that's that that that's very, very important to me.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

That that and being able to properly reach into uncomfortable areas, you know, patient experiences where they've gotten classes online and they have a bad experience going and talking to somebody in a brick and mortar facility about it. Um I'm not pointing fingers or blaming anybody, but as an industry we need to do that better. And we will. And you know, it it doesn't have to be a concrete policy, but it can certainly be an approach. And the the truth is I think there's other ways of connecting those dots to not just the verification level, but not just for the video call level, but very, very truly having the professionals involved at any level that we can have them involved and have those hands reaching across. That's what I see happening with Glen. And that's what I see happening with this legislation. Um, we're not doing it behind the backs of autonomy at all. They're involved. Um there's even you know, talk of the the formulation of the state board after this that we'll have people that aren't from their industry at all. And that's smart. Yeah. You know, one of the things we talked about is that retail perception, you know, and what we can do about it and what we really can't do about it, you know. I mean, yeah. We can't for we can't control completely what's inside of a shopping site.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

No, you can't. You you can't uh you can't control a lot of things. You unfortunately, you just have to go with what happens, right? And as somebody that manages a brick and mortar private practice, not retail, the the best thing that I the best approach I have is even if somebody went somewhere else, doesn't matter if it's with me, doesn't matter if it's online, my job is to help them. My job is to figure out what went wrong when their glasses were made, whether I whether we made them or not, and to find the solution to that. And I I think that's important. Um because change can't happen, conversations can't happen if if we're just turning patients away.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Or being angry at them. Yeah. If they're if they if it's been a bad experience, um you know, admitting who's wrong or who's not there, or justification, or you need to see me for this, or you know, that's you can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

You have to you have to treat every patient. You don't know anybody's situation, you don't know what they're coming from, you don't know what happened, you don't know why they went where they went. But the only thing that you can do is facilitate what happens next. And I think it's important to treat everybody with care and kindness and try to get the answers to why they're you know their current glasses are not working for them and how we can fix that.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Completely. And if there was a way to kind of put this stuff in between the lines of legislation, we would certainly do it. Um but you know, to hit on that, you you know, you you really uh you fall in line with keeping the professionalism, uh you know, moving the bar towards licensure. How do we feel about licensure? I know for me personally, I I like the idea of stepping towards certification prior to that so that we can sculpt what licensure looks like in Pennsylvania at an education level, so it's very clearly in tune, hopefully with New Jersey and New York. To me, that makes the most sense. Yes. Um that way we can share education events. See where I'm going with this, you know. I found what the hard way from our state too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Um so I I still have a New York State license. Um, I still have to get education with them. Um I did find out the hard way. New York and PA do not share, um, you know, New York doesn't recognize OAP education. There's a process to get that started, um, which, you know, I hope one day we can do. But yeah, absolutely. Um, I think that I think any type of, I think certification is important, right? If we're not ready for licensure, if we don't have um, you know, we all have to be on board. And all the conversations, all the open forums we've done um where we talk about this the certification bill has been positive. Um I don't know that it would be positive if we had licensure on the table, but we have certification right now, and I think that that's an important step. I think getting all of um our our profession, you know, our our our peers in, you know, this like in an agreement or to decide how we want the profession to go for the state of Pennsylvania, I think collectively together, I think that's important. And right now, certification seems to be that path. Um, all the conversations you and I have had, you know, on the legislative committee and with an open forum have seemed to be in a positive direction. We all seem to be in agreement with many things from a state board, a state associate, a state board and what that would look like and who would be involved in that to, you know, what does it look like? How do we get there? How do we get to certification? How long will it take? Um, do we allow people who have been doing this for 20 plus years to just keep doing it, grandfather them in so that they can continue without being certified? So those conversations are amazing. I'm glad we are having them. I look forward to having them every time we do one of the open sessions, or if somebody sends me an email or wants to talk. And to your point, doctors are aware. I have sent the legislation to a couple of them, and we've talked to the POA.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

And thank you.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

They've seemed open and receptive to talking to us, giving us advice, seeing where things go. So I think open door and open communication is is is the way to do it. And I think certification, you know, is the next step. And we're not just the only state looking at that.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Exactly. Which is really kind of wrapped, puts the that's the bow, that's the bow on the, you know, on the present. Because the education that can drive any of the upwards, you know, we're draw we're drawing a line in the sand now. But anything we want to draw above that, uh, you know, is steps towards an associate program. Is there steps towards having potentially licensure, but let's move towards something like that first. Let's let's develop what it looks like to have gone through a two-year program and an open apprenticeship or however that looks. To me, we have a spectacular opportunity to tweak in any way we want to improve or keep the same what New Jersey and New York have done already. Um, and then to extend it further down, you know, because Maryland and Delaware need this. You know, there's a lot of this philosophy of, hey, I've been an optician for 30 years, woo-hoo, and now I'm going to be licensed and make more money. Nothing, nothing works that way. There's I don't nothing ever works that way. If you don't show a clear-cut way for education to develop along with that, you know, that um apprenticeship, the the learning from the guys that that that that that went through an ugly loss battle here 35, 40 years ago that we don't even want to get into. But the truth is we want to do this in a way that can be replicated around the country. And I think that from what what everything I see out of the UOA is very, very, very encouraging in that direction. And I I think you would agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yeah, I mean, we have I have amazing conversations, like everything's positive, like everybody has different ideas of how things should go. But my conversations with the UOA, my conversations with um even the representative who's sponsoring the bill that we're working on, everything is in a positive direction. Um, there's no such thing as, you know, bad, like bad ideas. It's it's a nice conversation starter. It may lead to something else. And, you know, I know other states are looking at, you know, Pennsylvania and watching us to see like what happens with certification. Um, you know, I from my understanding, the history licensure has failed in PA a couple different times.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

So it's clearly broke. Let's fix it. And I think that's what we're doing. We're we're fixing it. We're maybe licensure is not the way to go right now. Like you said, we have to be able to walk before we can run. So putting a certification in might be that that building block to maybe licensure one day, but at the very minimum certification.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Well, and a certification is going to drive the the coming together uh at nice levels for education.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Uh at all different levels and all throughout the state. Because Pennsylvania is big.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

You know, it's it's it's not easy to just hop in the car and a couple hours later you're you're at something. So, you know, how we how we cultivate that, how we're able to put that together, how we can extend education across in different ways and have different events at different times of year to accommodate the different parts of the state, I think are gonna be huge. And also coming together with potentially uh the paras and uh optometry to, you know, instead of separating events, let's consider having one or two every couple years together. Let's do it all together. Uh well, yeah, not only will we have massive turnout because there's a lot of us, but really and truly we will be able to be in a in a uh hands-down environment where we can say, this stinks, this isn't working, let's fix this. Oh, I did want to say this in this discussion. Um you know, you and I had talked about, okay, this legislation could, well, and again, this is you know, just because it's getting submitted this fall, you know, it's probably not gonna hit the ground running for another year and a half or something like that. But but at the end of the day, um the the board that forms little, if any, uh uh funding for that board. So these are board seats that aren't you know getting anybody rich. No one's gonna be making a ton of money to be sitting on the Pennsylvania optician board. You know, it's not what this is about. It's about making sure the integrity and the education are heading in the right direction, that the people are have the right interests of the right people. In my mind, that's what the board's really and truly about. And carving the right paths for the education channels that that are going to take place. Yeah. Because as we come together, we want to define what education is is is going to be desired and what frankly we don't care about. Yeah. So, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

I agree. I think I I I like I don't think there's one set path for for education, right? Like I did my apprenticeship and I learned, you know, I learned things I probably wouldn't have been able to learn in a book. But, you know, there's also people who learn better with books than they do with on the job versus, you know, myself doing on the job. So I think that I think that there can be multiple pathways, and I think that there should be multiple pathways. Um, but it's nice that the board would be able to come together to help decide that who, you know, whoever those board members may be, that's the hope, right? Is that they're in it for love of their profession and want to grow it and and want to make sure that, you know, collectively as a profession, we we grow together and we stand united at that point.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Well, and there's also ways to craft entire events where people from any background, I don't care if you work at Vision Orgs or Target or Lens Crafters or Dr. Fred's or the ophthalmology group. You know, the the there can be something there that isn't going to threaten you in any way when you go back. Um, you know, because often that can be an upset in the Apple car. You know, there are strong, deep partnerships with lens companies, and we're we won't go too far down that road, but we know that that's genuinely true. But we also know that at the universal level, you can certainly talk about every stinking benefit of a driving lens. I mean I mean, really and truly, you don't need to mention a lens vendor at all to know that that's a product that anybody who does any doll and dust wet road driving should be wearing.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

And you know, I think there's something to that, right? I think that you know, it doesn't matter if you're in private practice or you're in one of the big box stores, I think everybody would benefit for edit from education. We'd all do. Like every day you learn something new every day. Um, so I don't think it, I think having events where everybody can come together from doctors to paras to opticians for any type of education. Uh technology is always evolving, so is education. I think, you know, I would like to see it be um be unified. I would like to see us come together. I would like to see us work together. You know, I have learned from people in private practice and I've learned from people in retail stores. I've learned just as much. I don't think one side brings more to the table than the other.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Perfect. The the coaching and the mentoring that that you do in your own life and and and within the industry, it's to me that's falls right in line with that. It's you know, it's like, look, we're not this isn't about separating out or or saying who knows what or how they how they teach what. You know, um conversation that came came up uh in my last interview was was very clear that the sign on the on the door has nothing to do with the quality of the opticians that are inside.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Um and yeah, well that that's a beautiful thing about what we do. Um I don't know if that universally translates across to dentistry and maybe other, you know, independent sectors that are in the healthcare. So, you know, we have a unique uh foothold and a unique opportunity. And it is surprising that here we are in 2026, and still more than half the states are you know just kind of functioning. They either may or may I think it's 38 or 39 states that may have associations, but less than half you know, have anything on any book whatsoever. The other thing that surprises me is how late in the game uh on the actual books legal licensure came about for optom optometry. In Pennsylvania it was 78, 79, something like that. Um, which surprised me.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

And I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

I really thought they were much further back than that. Uh uh don't don't quote me on that, but it long story short, is that I kind of assumed that was something that happened in the 40s, 50s.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

Okay, yeah, I would assume that too.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Reality is that, yeah, the actual having a you know state optometric board on record, then you pass this, you become an optimum. I mean, I I don't know. That's kind of late in the game to have gone, you know. So you that's relatively recent. When you look at when you look at the grand scheme of things, you know, something in the late 70s is not that far.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

No, because licensure for opticians in New York State was it was, I think, like 77 or 79. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

And it's probably shortly reactionary after what was going on there. Because the markets down here in Philadelphia are very similar to what they were, you know, or what I've heard of and seen, you know, in a periphery way for in New York. Well, uh, this has been a fantastic interview. Did you have anything else that you wanted to add? Uh uh any any pearls of wisdom going forward uh for uh leadership.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Well, uh I mean, I don't know. I think that there's something, you know, I I love to I've been coaching kids in in sports for 24 years. So helping, you know, opticians along and doing the extern program in Salahs, uh like with alongside Salais is just it's something I love to do. I like to, I think it's kind of cool to show people your knowledge. And I think it's kind of nice watching everything with OAP and UOA and coming together with this legislation. I'm, you know, listening to everybody around the state. I, you know, every time I went to, we had our last CE event in in the spring, and I I talked to everybody that attended the event and listened to their stories and find out where they're from. And it's so nice because everybody still has a passion for it. So it's really nice to see. And I'm I'm I'm looking forward to, you know, talking to more people. I'm looking forward to hopefully getting certification in Pennsylvania passed, um, and and hopefully, you know, still coaching and mentoring people in the future.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

All of those things will come to pass. And you know, and I think the I think the most unique thing that we've kicked around, we've talked about it a few different times here and prior to today is that we're kind of leading the way. Um we didn't necessarily plan it this way. But but uh yeah, what an opportunity, you know, for Gwen to get involved with John and you uh at the right time to be kicking this into motion, how the people have come together to put together a piece of legislation that serves all of us.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

And um, yeah, and and raises the bar, creates minimums going forward, but raises the bar at all levels and lays the foreground for optician education in in a variety of places. I I know that in downtown Philadelphia we'll we will be having an optician program for sure, at least in the charter school, which in my mind will open up other opportunities than you even mentioned uh Sallus, Sallust to me, getting involved with them in any way is a thing to do. It really is. Uh uh they obviously have a very strong program, and they have one or two instructors that for lack of better terms have a small passion for optician work, have a small passion for lenses and screws and adjustments. And uh they do. I mean, and the fact that they're teaching um optometrists is very cool in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Yeah, I think I think it's nice for them to, I mean, I think it's nice that they have some knowledge because sometimes, you know, when you come in with a patient who's having trouble, whether with the prescription or the glasses, or even both, it's nice to have a partnership with them to be able to come to them and say, hey, you know what? I I've checked my measurements, I've checked your prescription, I've checked the fit, I've checked all of these things. It's nice that they also have maybe a different idea that you didn't think of or something to try. And I think a part of that is just the fact that they may have had those courses and something may trigger. Um, I think my greatest, my greatest strength in my practice is that I can rely on my doctors and they can rely on me to work together, whatever problem solving you know, we may need, whether it's, you know, adding prism or changing the frame or restyling them, are they not adapt to something? Is it the progressive? Is it the lens material? So it's nice that I can go to them and we can collectively try to find out what's wrong with the patient's classes that's not giving them their best vision possible. So um I think it's all about collaborating with people, whether, you know, opticians, doctors, I don't think there's one answer or one, like there's it's not a clear-cut path. You it it's you know, it's a winding road, and everybody has you know a connection to you and or a connection to it. And I think that if you utilize that and work together, I think we'll accomplish more in our profession. I'm looking forward to it. I I hope it happens. It does every day for me.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

So I I agree. Well, uh, and I I'm I'm the guy who always wants to put, you know, here's your one, two, three, go, and then you're you'll fix your vision problem. But but Danielle is very quick to point out that life just isn't that way. It's just, you know, once I'm face to face with somebody, I may have three or four eyed things I want to go through in order in my head, but it's not cookie cutter, and they're not even in that sequence, depending on who I'm talking to. Yeah. So, you know, there's the the I love those psychology discussions with her and you, because you guys can kind of see the human element.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Um That elevates one optition stand. You know, obviously they're expert listeners, but uh when they try something out of the box and it hits a home run, it's like, ooh, yeah, wow, pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Well, it's nice that you can. We can, right? Like it's somebody's what my visual needs are are not your visual needs or the next person's visual needs. So I feel like it's always evolving, it's always something different. It's there's always something to learn. Like you had touched on the stellus lens early, like earlier. You know, that's new. That's six months new. Like we we haven't had anything like that. You know, I've read the studies over that in Europe and Canada, they've had it for a while. So I'm excited to see what it does here, you know, in the US. Like I said, my um New Path Vision has done Orthocay for a really long time. So we've done myopia management with my site in Orthocay, and now adding in stellist. Um, we haven't done that many patients yet, so I'm excited to add, you know, more that would like to do it in the long run. But, you know, I've seen myopia management work in other ways. So I'm excited to see how it works in this way. But it's it's something newer that we we're not used to.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Having the options in the early identification, what a win. I mean, that's to me, that's where I tip the hat to uh to to optometry uh and and the creators. You know, you're your your people that are like, look, this is out there, it's happening, it's been going on for 50, 60 years. Here's what we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Yeah, well, Pennsylvania is also trying to pass that children's uh vision bill, which says that kids um, I think it's entering kindergarten have to, at a minimum, get a um routine eye exam to check for any deficiencies. So that'll be the conversation of is it accommodation, is it myopia, and then having those conversations and finding those things early on for kids. I'm a high myope. Um, my daughter fell in my footsteps, and my other daughter's amblyopic. So I got a whole bunch of vision problems in my my family, but but catching it early was important. I mean, we we you know, if you don't catch certain things at a certain age, sometimes it's too late and progression at myopia is only progressing, it doesn't get better. It's nice to see technology out there.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Well, completely. And because because for me it was disturbing to to learn about it and go, oh geez, we've been doing that wrong for 40 years.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Yeah. Oops, sorry. Or there's a different way to do it, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Right. Well, and and as far back as the 50s, they've been, you know, prescribing less, you know, like adding plus, but it doesn't, you know. I don't I don't think that's the answer per se. That's just get used to the blur, Johnny, you know. You'll survive and you'll watch that ball coming at you.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

But so it it is, I don't think it's all nothing simple about it. You know, I think it's it's something that we're learning as we go and and as the tools hit our hit our uh hit our lane that we go with them.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Yeah, and I think that's why education is important too, right? Like you just said it. There's always something new, there's always something to learn, whether it's technology or maybe the way we've been doing things should be tweaked or or tailored a little bit differently than you know they did 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Yeah, completely. And and it's a work in progress. Yeah, that that that's why it's a practice, you know, because we're practicing to hopefully get perfect. But having tools that can slow some ugly progressions down, we know are gonna be wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Even even like you just mentioned with dry eye as well. So it's a it's a huge, it's a huge win across so many, so many borders for us. Well, thank you so much for doing this. I'm gonna try to wrap it up again. Yes. Uh without rambling on another 20 minutes like I ended it. Uh thank you so much, everybody. Uh and thank you, Michelle. I really appreciate this. Uh, this has been another episode of Optimetry Profits Reveal. My name is Peter Precht. Uh, please, by all means, hang around for the next episode. Any uh information uh about Michelle, New Path Vision, and her future, and any other website connections will have in the comments. Thank you so much. Take your care. We are done. Awesome.