#57: Silencing Self Doubt - Practical Tips and Strategies with Natasha Scullane

 Do you ever wonder why self-doubt seems to hold you back, even when you're capable of so much more? 

This week I am joined by Natasha Scullane, a psychotherapist trained in CBT and EMDR. We delve into the complexities of self-doubt, particularly among women and explore the roots of self-doubt, its impact on personal and professional success, and the societal pressures that exacerbate these feelings. Natasha shares practical strategies for managing self-doubt, emphasising the importance of recognising personal values and taking actionable steps towards building confidence. The conversation also touches on the influence of social media and comparison, encouraging listeners to define their own success and prioritise self-care. 

Highlights include:
08:26 Understanding Self-Doubt and Self-Criticism
20:41 Breaking Free from Comparison
26:43 Daily Practices to Build Self-Trust

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This week's guest
Natasha Scullane is a psychotherapist trained in CBT and EMDR, with over 11 years of experience providing therapy and supervision in NHS Talking Therapies. In her private practice, she helps successful women who struggle with self-doubt, guiding them toward clarity and confidence. As a trauma-informed therapist, Natasha works with clients to resolve past experiences which may be manifesting in unexpected ways in the present. She also shares behind-the-scenes reflections on therapy and entrepreneurship in her Substack, Therapreneur Diaries.

Follow Natasha
Website: https://www.natashapsychotherapy.com (1:1 Online Therapy)
@natashapsychotherapy

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Transcript

Dr Liz White 0:09

Welcome to Hello Therapy, a podcast to help you take charge of your mental health through evidence-based psychological tips and tools straight from the therapy room, so that you can live life better that you can live life better. Have you ever found yourself questioning your abilities, even when you've achieved so much? Well, you're not alone, and today we're diving into why so many successful women still struggle with self-doubt. In this episode, I'm joined by psychotherapist Natasha Scalane and we're unpacking the real reasons behind this self-sabotaging mindset and, more importantly, how to break free from it. We discuss how self-doubt shows up in everyday life and the powerful link between self-criticism and confidence. Natasha shares practical strategies to quiet that inner critic, trust your intuition and start living a life guided by your values, not your fears.

Dr Liz White 1:17

So, whether you're feeling held back by self-doubt or simply want to understand it, this episode is packed full of insights and actionable tips to help you step into your true potential. So let's dive in. Hi, natasha, thank you so much for coming on the Hello Therapy podcast today. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited about our chat because we're talking about self-doubt, but particularly self-doubt in women, so it's going to be great to kind of really get into the meat of that topic, but before we start, do you want to tell our listeners who you are and what you do?

Natasha Skilleen 1:53

Yeah, sure. So my name is Natasha Skullane. I'm a CBT therapist. That's my core training. I've been qualified for over 10 years. I work in an NHS talking therapy service as well as working in private practice, and I'm also trained in EMDR and third wave therapies like ACT and CFT.

Dr Liz White 2:12

And yeah, that's me Great, thank you. So self-doubt, let's have a think about it. Why do women especially doubt themselves, and how does this manifest in their lives, in their work, in their relationship?

Natasha Skilleen 2:26

yeah. So self-doubt is the idea that people feel uncertain about themselves and their capabilities. So my theory on this is that people don't have like a solid foundation of of confidence. So if we think about, first of all, early experiences, so how you grow up in the home, whether you know you receive positive reinforcement, whether you get the idea that you know you are a good enough person or none, you've also got on top of that kind of societal expectations and so you've got your internal beliefs and you've got external expectations, whether it's from, like parents, whether it's from kind of outside, and I think women struggle with it in particular, because even as girls, we're told to be quiet, be nice, be good, you know.

Natasha Skilleen 3:19

And then when that girl becomes an adult, you know she might have the automatic idea that she's not good enough. She worries about what other people think and they might set themselves like particularly high standards and then not meet them. So you know, I'm particularly interested in this idea that there are so many successful women out there, and from the outside everyone looks like they're winning at life, but their internal world doesn't reflect that. They're still overthinking things. They're, you know, procrastinating. They're seeking reassurance.

Natasha Skilleen 3:54

They're not trusting their own judgment, they prefer to stay in their comfort zone you know, and it's like this fear bubble kind of surrounds them and yeah, it's such a shame and and the thing is, you know it, it's common, it's common for us to have it and you know, like I have it, I'm sure you have it, yeah, and it's not that it's something to eradicate, because that's not realistic, but we want to change your relationship with self-doubt so that it doesn't have such a negative impact on all these different areas of your life and I find in the people that I work with that self-doubt often goes hand in hand with self-criticism.

Dr Liz White 4:32

I work with a lot of people who are highly self-critical and the conversations that I have are around how can we help you trust yourself and not listen to that other part of you that is coming in and sort of saying how badly you're doing and that you know that you can't make a decision? Do you find that as well in your work?

Natasha Skilleen 4:54

yeah, definitely. So I think if you imagine like a car journey and you're the driver, I would say like self-doubt, and in your inner critic are passengers in that car. So your inner critic might be saying like, oh, that was rubbish, saying more negative things about things that have actually happened where I suppose self-doubt has got more of an anxiety flavor to it.

Natasha Skilleen 5:18

To kind of make you question like, should you even do that and who do you think you are even considering doing that? And then your inner critic will, yeah, jump on board and agree like, oh yeah, well, you know you messed up last time, so probably not a good idea to go for it, yeah, this time. And yeah, thinking about deeper psychology. You know I'm sure you've talked on this podcast before about compassion, focus, therapy and your three emotional systems. And if you're in, then yeah, self-criticism fuels that. But also if you're in threat, you're just going to be less certain.

Natasha Skilleen 5:54

You are faced with the unknown and you're just not going to feel confident. And it can just be very easy for the self-doubt part of you to stop you in your tracks and get hesitating enough to not do the thing, which then means that you miss out on gathering evidence of your capabilities. You don't go ahead and do it, so you don't get any feedback that says, yeah, oh, you can do it.

Dr Liz White 6:22

Look, you did do it yeah, and self-doubt can have that very. It's a very, almost like a self-sabotaging kind of flavor to it, can't it? Because it stops you doing the things that might move you forward. So you work with successful women. That's your niche, isn't?

Natasha Skilleen 6:43

it.

Dr Liz White 6:43

Yeah, that's right, and so do you find that women can be like, super successful, but the self-doubt is very hidden? Or do you find that you work with women who are quite, uh, frustrated about where they are in life and therefore you know being able to work on the self-doubt means that they can propel forward?

Natasha Skilleen 7:06

or is it both? Yeah, well, yeah, probably both.

Natasha Skilleen 7:09

I would say that, yeah, the women I've worked with can, yeah, have this kind of sense of dissatisfaction yeah so, for example, I worked with someone before who, like, was running their own business and, like, if you looked at their LinkedIn profile, you would think everything was absolutely fine, but actually they were struggling with anxiety. They were struggling with, like, boundaries within work and you know, especially if we think about female entrepreneurs, a lot of the time people go into that wanting freedom, but you can end up in like a jail of your own making yeah when you're saying yes to things that you don't want to do and not trusting your gut when you see red flags and situations.

Natasha Skilleen 7:51

So definitely, you know, if we think about, okay, one of the things that I end up doing people is get people to think about you know their values and think about, okay, what, what is important to you?

Understanding Self-Doubt and Self-Criticism

Natasha Skilleen 8:02

And like, are you acting in alignment with that? And if you're, if you're not, then that will fuel this idea that you don't feel sure, because you know you end up operating on this idea of like, well, I feel like I should do this, yeah, but then you forget, like where that came from. So then you end up second guessing yourself and, yeah, I just imagine like a lot of hesitation and you know again, with that like with like a swan analogy, I think the women especially that I work with, like they look like they're gliding, but it's it's the feet underneath and I think it's a very internal experience like not necessarily people wouldn't necessarily notice, people wouldn't say, oh, yeah, that person doubts themselves because they're just seeing them at a conference on stage but they don't know that they were up till two the night before rehearsing or whatever and I think the other thing that can go hand in hand with self-doubt is needing to be certain.

Dr Liz White 8:59

So around decision making, I think there can be this sense of well, I have to be certain or I have to be 100% or 80% certain that the decision that I'm making right now is the right one, and often people can get quite stuck in that, actually, this idea of like the right decision. I like what you're saying there about the values piece, because I think we hear a lot about you know, live in alignment with your values. But sometimes I think that can be a bit of a nebulous idea. What would you say that actually looks like in real life?

Natasha Skilleen 9:36

Yeah, I think that's a really, really good question and you're right, it is spoken about a lot. I think I would say that I'm a person who embodies it. So in that way, when I work with clients and in my own life, it's very practical the way that I implement it. So I have my top five values, so just to share one of them like one of them is is connection. So because I know that I value connection, I will behave as though, as that is important to me. So, for example, I like socializing, I like coming on podcasts when I'm invited, I like chit-chatting to people on Substack.

Natasha Skilleen 10:13

I will, you know, if I'm at a mandatory training session in the NHS, I'll talk to the person next to me.

Natasha Skilleen 10:18

You know, it's the idea that I follow through with my actions. The whole idea and this kind of comes from acceptance and commitment therapy. You know that actions speak louder than words. So I think what I help people do is really kind of get an understanding of what their values are, and then I will literally go through each value with them and be like OK, let's identify three behaviors that bring that to life in your life, and it doesn't have to be something major, it could just be you know something, something small. So if, for example, you value self-care it's not always about bubble baths, you know. It's the idea that if you're thirsty, get yourself a drink like it's. You want to embody the idea that this matters to you, so behave in that way. So what people end up with is like a list of things that they can pick from. That they can yeah, you know move them closer towards the person they want to be and the life they want to live yeah and self-doubt.

Dr Liz White 11:24

It gets in the way, doesn't it? It gets in the way of that values led life.

Dr Liz White 11:30

I think, because you can have the idea of you know, wanting to reach a certain level in your job, for example, and you want to embody the values of professionalism, let let's say whatever that would look like, but the self-doubt when that hooks you. It then becomes difficult to actually go through with those behaviors and those actions because you get so wrapped up in the anxiety and the uncertainty and is this right? Is this not right? So how would someone tackle that? How do you work with that?

Natasha Skilleen 12:04

So I would think about the ACT help helpers yeah as they say, and unhooking skills. So the first thing I would do is to understand. You know what what self-doubt is saying. You know? Imagine it being like a track on your Spotify playlist and if the track says I'm not capable of doing this.

Natasha Skilleen 12:25

I've noticed that the track has started and hopefully what that can do initially is just create a bit of distance between you and the thought. So in app they call it diffusion, where you give a bit of space between you and that thought and you can just notice it. You can notice that the track is playing. Isn't it interesting that you've arrived now when I'm about to do this thing, you can also reorientate yourself to the present and, yeah, I really encourage people to take like an observing stance to it, to notice that this is happening and to not seek to like get rid of it. Just the idea of, okay, I know that you're here and I want to do it, anyway, you can come with me as I do it and that that seems to help.

Dr Liz White 13:15

I love that analogy of the Spotify playlist because my Spotify playlist keeps giving me things I didn't ask for.

Dr Liz White 13:22

You know, it does these like playlists and then suddenly you're listening to this playlist that you have no idea about. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not, but, yeah, the idea that it could be quite intrusive, can't it? Self doubt thoughts and the self-criticism thoughts, but that idea of, yeah, sort of being able to, to realize, oh, that playlist is playing right now like it's it's dictating what I do in this situation and how can I step back from it and recognize it what it is? Just thoughts showing up beliefs, whatever. I don't have to listen to the playlist or that track.

Natasha Skilleen 14:00

Yeah, I can move on to another one yeah, one of the analogies in act is the idea of turning turning the volume down, yeah, and you know being like okay.

Values-Led Living vs Self-Doubt

Natasha Skilleen 14:09

But also what I say to people is that you know we do work on like an alternative like track that they can listen to, but it's it's not in a pressure like you need to replace this track with this track. It's more like let's just pop it on the playlist, give it a chance to like crop up in the in the shuffle, but it's a very generally a very balanced track saying like you know, we were just talking before we hit record, about running a business and marketing and things, and I would say I'm someone that I'm, I'm working on getting better at marketing. So, rather than it being like you know, if my self-doubt track is like you're not capable of marketing, you know the alternative to that is just like I'm working on getting better at marketing. It's not about trying to convince yourselves that you're amazing at, yeah, marketing. You don't want it to be unpalatable, like you want there to be for you to be kind of like, yeah, you know that is. That is more compassionate, that is more realistic, it's less harsh yeah, yeah.

Dr Liz White 15:09

And I think the other thing that can come up for people is really feeling behind compared to everyone else. Like we compare very naturally, don't we, to each other in the world? Uh, but especially, you know, we have things like social media and all that kind of stuff, so it makes it a lot easier for us to look at the next person and go, oh my gosh, they're doing this, this and this, and I'm not but a woman who is self-doubting, self-critical and feels behind compared to her peers or compared to people that she's comparing with. Like, what would you say to someone like that?

Natasha Skilleen 16:24

I would say that I would initially review where the plan came from, like the timeline that you feel like you're on, that you are lagging behind on like whose idea was that? Was that society? Was that saying you need to be, you know, married with kids and with a mortgage by the time you're 30? Or is it something your parents did and you know? For example, I worked with someone recently who, yeah, was all their friends were getting married, basically yeah and they weren't, and it was just like a simple question of like, well, do you want to get married? And then it was like, oh, no, actually I don't want to. Yeah, and you're just like okay, so according to their trajectory, given that they want to get married and they are now getting married, then that's great for them, but actually it's okay for your trajectory to be different and I think some people forget that you get to define what success is. You get to define what's important, and I feel like this is happening more and more with clients. That it's about, you know, really just taking a step back and thinking OK, what about you personally? What? What would you like your life to look like? And you know the clock that's ticking is a is potentially a self-imposed clock that actually we can, you know, take the battery out of.

Dr Liz White 17:57

It's tricky has has success, but wants to, wants to be even more successful in whatever way. And you there are people who sort of next to you, who are doing better, or you perceive them to be doing better. Like it's tough. I think the natural conclusion could be what am I doing wrong here?

Natasha Skilleen 18:17

yeah and that's when the self doubt can kind of get its hooks in yeah, that's very true, and I think that one of the things to think about is, you know, zooming in on your behavior.

Natasha Skilleen 18:30

So let's say you're someone who, um, wants to find a partner and get married. It's almost like reverse engineering, that like thinking about what do you need to be doing? And if you're sat at home thinking there's no point going on dating apps because I won't find anyone anyway, and even if I do find someone that I like, they probably won't like me. And you know, maybe that I'm, you know I'm older than they want to be, or maybe I'll start dating when I look different, or maybe I'll start dating in the summer, or, you know, there can be all sorts of negative thoughts that result in, you know, avoidance, procrastination, you know, and it's hard then to kind of see any progress. So I would encourage people to think about what actions are you taking towards what you're wanting, because sometimes it can feel like you're doing. You feel like you're doing lots of things to move you forward, but actually you couldn't be doing a lot of thinking about doing things but not actually the actions and it's really understandable to compare to other people.

Breaking Free from Comparison

Natasha Skilleen 19:42

But again, we just don't know what's different and you know things are not always as they seem. Yeah, and you know, I think as well. I'm approaching my 40s and all these people who are really excited to get married, some of them are getting divorced.

Dr Liz White 19:57

Sometimes it's it's not as kind of no um, rainbows and unicorns, as it seems, and it's much better actually to work on yourself and go at your own pace and pick wisely yeah, and I think, to pick up your point, and I use the example of dating but yes, it's really important to know what your values are and what, what actions you can take moving towards those values. But the, the actions, I think also have to be, be realistic and aligned in the sense of. So I speak with a lot of people, a lot of women, who absolutely hate the dating apps. I mean it's it, I mean it's a, it's a really tough environment and if you're sort of trying, if you're like forcing yourself to use these apps but hating every minute of it, that is not going to get you the result that you desire. So it is sometimes, you know, thinking outside the box a little bit. Oh, what else could you do?

Natasha Skilleen 21:01

you know what?

Dr Liz White 21:02

are what in-person things are going on in around your community, or friends and friends, or you know. Let's think creatively about this rather than getting stuck down a certain path where you are going to end up getting stuck and criticizing yourself for lack of progress yeah, exactly yeah and I think as well.

Natasha Skilleen 21:23

I've heard another coach talk about this, vicky Shilley. She talks about the idea that you you need to be careful, like how you're measuring your progress.

Natasha Skilleen 21:32

So someone who's dating, for example, might feel like well, it's only progress when I get a boyfriend um yeah, but actually progress would be, um, you know, yeah, signing up to that speed dating event, going on that walk, agreeing to go on the blind date to the coffee shop, yeah, and kind of seeing those steps as progress. Um, you know, chatting to somebody, and even if you date someone for a short time, it doesn't work out like you're.

Natasha Skilleen 22:03

You're still closer to, you know, finding somebody who is going to be a good match for you you know, you're gathering information all the time, um, and I think it's being, yeah, being mindful of how you're measuring your progress, rather than getting like really deflated, because often people stop before something big happens because they don't see that they've been planting seeds the whole time.

Dr Liz White 22:30

Yeah, that's so true, isn't it we? We do get a bit stuck in, like or focus on goals, rather than thinking about the process that you're in and what you're learning and what you're taking from that process, even if it feels hard, like with the dating example. You know when it doesn't work out or when someone doesn't message you back like it's hard. Or in a business arena, you know if, um, you put out five instagram posts and nobody likes or you know it's it's, you can feel very deflated and you can feel like giving up yeah but again it's like okay, what have?

Dr Liz White 23:10

what have I learned from that? Well, that that hasn't quite worked for me. What else can I try? Yeah, exactly and.

Natasha Skilleen 23:17

I think as well. You know, especially being on Substack, I've seen so many different kind of posts on this, but there was one that stands out to me is this business mentor who said that she got contacted by somebody who booked in, who's never liked a single post. You know she didn't have any idea, but she'd been following her for two years and then like booked in so you know, it's the idea that I think, yeah, we can't always measure our progress based on external things, like it's.

Natasha Skilleen 23:48

I think it's about controlling the controllables, isn't it kind of, you know, just going back to the marketing idea, like when one of us promotes our private practice, like you know, we don't know where that's gonna go, who's gonna see that, and people may not see it that day, but they might see it in a couple of weeks or they might come back to it. You know, there's and there is trust involved and it's interesting. I was speaking to other business owners last week and they were saying that one of the things that there's a lady who's four years into her business and she said that what kind of sets her apart from other people is that she has, like a high tolerance for discomfort. Okay, the idea that you know the uncertainty, the doubt, the not knowing, and she continues you know it's kind of like white noise to her yeah

Natasha Skilleen 24:38

um, and I'm not saying that you know she manages that great every single day, but she kind of, you know, thinking about it from a general anxiety perspective. You know it's the idea that threat versus opportunity, like discomfort and doubt, can make you want to quit and stop and, and you know it feels very threatening to not know if there's going to be any positive outcome to this. Yeah, but then you know there's the opportunity side of things, but we sometimes have to be a bit patient for that and you know it's hard to be patient. I understand.

Daily Practices to Build Self-Trust

Dr Liz White 25:14

It is hard to be patient, I think, especially nowadays, we want everything now, don't we? Yeah, um, we think we've become this sort of society where you know, you open your phone and you can order food and it comes within 10 minutes, like it's. We are all in that. So, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it I? I'm curious about sort of thinking in terms of how can someone listening to this, who experiences a lot of self-doubt, really recognizes that but doesn't really know what to do about it, what, what would be some really small but powerful, let's say, daily practices that they could do to build confidence in themselves and build that self-trust?

Natasha Skilleen 25:57

that's a great question. So the first thing I would say is to pay attention to, like your gut feelings on things, your intuition, because sometimes what happens is that we have like an immediate sense about something and then we kind of ignore it and then think about what should I do and what does you know Tom Dick and Harry say about it. So I would encourage people to kind of just spend some time noticing what your intuition said, like you don't have to follow it straight away, but just get used to tuning into it, because you know, a lot of times when you do follow it you learn something yeah another thing I would say is, if you are going to take some action like if you say to yourself okay, I'm going to do x, then do do it.

Natasha Skilleen 26:44

Do follow through with it. You want to kind of perceive yourself to be reliable you say I'm going to do this, then I'm going to do it yeah and that kind of builds evidence of you know, I when I say I'm going to do something, I do it, you know, and it's kind of a bit it's like a discipline thing. I think again, I was trying to think of an analogy before we started talking, this idea of feeling like solid versus kind of feeling a bit like you know, those um, what do you call them?

Dr Liz White 27:15

those things with the air and they're like waving in the wind oh, like the big, the big sort of men that you get alongside the road in america.

Natasha Skilleen 27:23

I've never seen them here I don't know what they're called. I'm just trying. But yeah, you want, you want things to just be a bit more solid. You don't want it to be that the air goes out of you and you just like deplete completely. Like you want there to be some substance behind what you're saying and it can just help you feel a bit more confident and kind of trust yourself.

Dr Liz White 27:44

I have an inner elder. I call it my inner elder, so it's sort of an older version of myself, older than I am, like maybe 60s or 70s, and imagining you know what she would say for me. That's my intuition, the sort of uh, that, as you say, that wisdom, I think we all have that. We all have that inner wisdom that we can tune into, but a lot of us don't tune into it and it is. It is about harnessing that, isn't it in those moments where you're in a lot of self-doubt? And I think the thing that I would add to daily practices is just being able to recognize when self-doubt is showing up and and what that looks like for you.

Dr Liz White 28:29

So you know, is it very, very self-critical? What's the tone of voice that's that's kind of showing up in your mind, or does it show up in a different way? Is it showing up as anxiety? And what would that anxiety say if it was sort of talking to you, journaling? That can be really helpful and sort of having a almost like having, having like a record of your self-doubt journey and and then you can be in a better position to see the change over time if you really want to commit to working on it yeah, absolutely.

Natasha Skilleen 29:04

You want to get to know your, your personal self-doubt, because each person it will manifest yeah differently, um. So I know for me that it can cause a lot of like overthinking, um, and you know, one of my values nowadays actually is action, and I like, dabbled with like, oh, it could be learning, it could be growth, and I was like do you know what? I just need to say it what it is.

Natasha Skilleen 29:30

I need to, you know, engage in action more often um, and it just helps kind of stop there. Well, not stop, but I just crack on, kind of regardless yeah, because I know that, I know what's happening and I know what will happen if I go off into that spiral yeah, because I think also what I would say there is.

Dr Liz White 29:52

I think there can be self-doubt where you are imagining, like, what might happen if you take a certain action or a certain decision, and then I think there's self-doubt that shows up once you've made a decision around something yeah and then it's like, oh my god, this, and so I think there's almost like there could be two different types, but they still produce uncertainty, anxiety, and I think journaling or just sort of having a little record in your notes in your phone will help you work out which type and is there a pattern to it.

Natasha Skilleen 30:29

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Liz White 30:30

Yeah.

Natasha Skilleen 30:31

Because if you make a decision out of vision for the people, then you can have your own internal kind of angst about that, because then you make a decision and then you like, share the decision with other people who, and then they might start questioning it, and then that will, yeah, come back on you and be like, oh my god, what if I made the wrong decision, or they don't agree with my decision, or they wouldn't do that?

Dr Liz White 30:53

what does?

Natasha Skilleen 30:53

that mean? Does that mean, I've made it wrong?

Dr Liz White 30:55

you can definitely yeah, lose, lose time doing yeah, absolutely well, that's been such a great chat and lots of imagery today like that. You've talked about Natasha, so thank you so much for coming on the hello therapy podcast today. Oh, you're so welcome.

Natasha Skilleen 31:11

Thank you so much for coming on the Hello Therapy podcast today. Oh, you're so welcome, thank you.

Dr Liz White 31:15

Thank you for listening to this episode of Hello Therapy. If you found it helpful, don't forget to subscribe, follow and review. You can get more well-being and mental health tips by joining our email list and visiting the resources section of our website at harleyclinicalcouk. The Hello Therapy podcast and the information provided by me, dr Liz White, is solely intended for information and educational purposes and does not constitute personalised advice. Please do reach out to your GP or a mental health professional if you need support. Until next time, take care of yourself.