#60: Neurodivergent Parenting - Challenges, Misconceptions and Practical Tips for Families

Are you parenting a neurodivergent child and struggling with all that can entail?

This episode can help. I am joined by Clinical Psychologists Dr Jo Mueller and Dr Lauren Breese to discuss the complexities of neurodivergent parenting. We explore common misconceptions about neurodivergent children, the challenges of managing meltdowns and sensory overload, and the mental health struggles faced by parents. 

This conversation is about empowering parents to find ways to cope, and emphasises the importance of community support, practical strategies for stress management, and the need for advocating for your child within educational settings. 

Highlights include:

04:45 Misconceptions About Neurodivergent Children
09:30 Managing Sensory Overload and Meltdowns
16:50 Mental Health Challenges for Parents
23:57 Coping in Neurodivergent Households
31:53 Advocating for Your Child

Want more insights? 

Take a look at the Hello Therapy Substack for an EXTRA interview where we get a little more personal about neurodivergent parenting. 

Check it out HERE.

This week's guests:

Dr Jo Mueller and Dr Lauren Breese are clinical psychologists who run The Neurodiversity Practice with their colleague, Dr Siobhan Higgins. With over 50 years of collective clinical & lived expertise in the world of neurodiversity, they founded The Neurodiversity Practice to make high-quality, evidence-based information & support accessible to a wider audience. The practice offers unique support and resources to parents via The Neurodivergent Parent Space community, to help them navigate neurodivergent family life with authenticity and positivity, plus neuroinclusivity training to practitioners and organisations.

@theneurodiversitypractice
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The Hello Therapy podcast and the information provided by Dr Liz White (DClinPsy, CPsychol, AFBPsS, CSci, HCPC reg.), is solely intended for informational and educational purposes and does not constitute personalised advice. Please reach out to your GP or a mental health professional if you need support. 

Transcript

Introducing the Neurodiversity Practice

Dr Liz White 0:02

If you're looking to improve your mental health and well-being, then keep listening. I'm Dr Liz White, a consultant clinical psychologist with over 20 years of experience. Whether you're a frazzled parent, a stressed out professional or finding your way through the challenges of midlife, you're in the right place. Through a mix of solo episodes and insightful conversations with expert psychologists and therapists, I'm bringing you evidence-based tools and strategies to help you navigate life's ups and downs with confidence, clarity and compassion. With confidence, clarity and compassion this is your space to feel seen, supported and empowered. Welcome to Hello Therapy. Are you a parent navigating the complex journey of raising a neurodivergent child, or perhaps you're a neurodivergent parent yourself, juggling diverse family needs? Today, I'm joined by clinical psychologists, dr Jo Miller and Dr Lauren Breeze, who run the Neurodiversity Practice with their colleague, dr Siobhan Higgins. They founded the Neurodiversity Practice to make high quality, evidence-based information and support accessible to a wider audience, and they offer unique support and resources to parents via the neurodivergent parents-based community. If you haven't checked them out, please do, because they have so many great resources.

Dr Liz White 1:38

In this episode, jo and Lauren provide invaluable insights and practical tips into managing some of the really key issues that parents face when parenting neurodivergent children, such as sensory overload and meltdowns, addressing mental health challenges and how to effectively advocate for neurodivergent kids, particularly in schools. Don't forget to check out the Hello Therapy sub stack, where I continue to grill Jo and Lauren about various things in an exclusive interview and that isn't published in the podcast. The link for that and the neurodiversity practice is in the show notes, so let's dive in. So, lauren and Jo, thank you so much for joining me on the Hello Therapy podcast. It's great to have you both here. Thanks for having us. It's great to be here. Before we start, do you want to both introduce who you are and what you both do?

Dr Jo Muller 2:37

Sure, Okay, I'll go first. I'm Dr Jo Muller. I'm a clinical psychologist and I at the moment work in private practice with parents. So I work with parents on their parenting skill, parenting approach, but also on their mental health and well-being, and obviously those two things go hand in hand. And obviously those two things go hand in hand. I do one-to-one work and run groups, but I also work with Lauren and our colleague Siobhan in the neurodiversity practice, where we do more systemic work. So we offer training workshops and we run a community for neurodivergent parents Great.

Dr Lauren Breeze 3:23

Yes, so I'm Dr Lauren Breeze and I'm a clinical psychologist and, yes, I think both Jo and I we've worked with neurodivergent people throughout our careers actually, and we met in the NHS, in CAMHS. I've worked across CAMHS and adults services in the NHS, as well as kind of universities and in research all kind of in neurodiversity. And currently I'm working in private practice supporting neurodivergent adults and I offer assessments for ADHD and autism and post-diagnostic support as well as psychological therapy for people's well-being neurodivergent people's well-being. And then my other side of the job is, yes, co-founder of the neurodiversity practice. So we run the parent community and we're, I suppose we're trying to get kind of evidence-based practice about neurodiversity into the wider system. So we want we've been working with workplaces trying to support their neuro-inclusive culture and also practitioners, so therapists and clinicians that are working with neurodivergent people and how they might do that on top of the parent community. So it's really varied and it's really lovely, but all around kind of neurodiversity.

Misconceptions About Neurodivergent Children

Dr Liz White 4:42

And that is so needed, isn't it? Training in neurodiversions, neurodiversity in work? That is so needed, isn't it? Training in neurodiversions, neurodiversity in workplaces I see that a lot working in the city of London, where there are work, you know, a lot of workplaces are very behind on that. I think that's been my experience anyway. But today we're here to talk about, we're going to sort of hone it in on neurodivergent parenting, aren't we? Or parenting children, teenagers, who are neurodivergent? And also if you're a neurodivergent parent yourself, and how all that sort of mixes up. And I wanted to start with what are the biggest misconceptions about neurodivergent kids and teens, would you say?

Dr Lauren Breeze 5:25

yeah, that's such a great question, liz. Um, do you know? There's so many misconceptions about neurodivergence. I think one of the key ones that we come across that sometimes people might think that neurodivergent people are just being lazy. Yeah, I mean, when we work with adults, we know that they've often maybe been told this when they've been younger.

Dr Lauren Breeze 5:48

Potentially, you know, um, but not only that, like that they're maybe too dramatic or attention seeking in some ways, but actually what we know is about, uh, I guess there are key elements of neurodivergence that that make it harder for neurodivergent people. You know, for example, executive functioning makes it harder for neurodivergent people to start tasks, so they're not being lazy and they might have a fluctuation in those skills as well, like some days they might be able to do more than others. Um, and it's the same, with kind of emotional dysregulation or emotional distress. Neurodivergent people might struggle to regulate that um, compared to neurotypical children, and so then they may have more meltdowns or they may have sensory sensitivities that lead to experiencing more meltdowns. They're not being dramatic, they're. They're struggling to regulate their distress caused by their environment or caused by sensory sensitivities.

Dr Jo Muller 6:48

Yeah, this is kind of something that we often have to tackle, this idea that they're doing it on purpose, or they're dramatic or they're, or they're lazy or not trying hard enough yeah, I think sort of following on from that is that neurodivergence in girls, so particularly autism and ADHD in girls, is something that we're only we as a society are really kind of only getting to understand a bit more in recent years, and it's often been women who've been labeled in those ways because their neurodivergence has gone on undiagnosed, unrecognized, for a long time, and so a lot of people are now getting diagnosed later in life, either sort of noticing it for themselves now that they're a parent or, you know, maybe their child has been diagnosed or they've noticed it in their child. And you know, at the moment the evidence does still sort of suggest that these diagnoses are more common in males, but the ratio is really changing very rapidly as we better understand what this actually looks like. The diagnostic criteria were obviously developed based on boys, so we know that you know when you're, if you're comparing a girl to criteria for boys, then so so much of the time they're not going to meet those criteria unless you adapt it and and think about how it's showing up for them. And I think another problem is that people really have stereotypes in their heads of what an autistic person looks like. You know what an ADHD looks like it's really outdated and actually even a lot of educators, a lot of clinicians even still have these stereotypes in their head and might miss an autistic girl or an ADHDer.

Dr Jo Muller 8:30

People think, you know, autistic people are socially awkward, they don't have any empathy, you know they can't make eye contact, they can't have friends. And yeah, you know, that might be true for some people, but it doesn't apply across the board. And you know, girls in particular might seem very socially capable, might be hyper for some people, but it doesn't apply across the board. And you know, girls in particular might seem very socially capable, might be hyper empathic, you know, and adhd is might not seem hyperactive. Lots of women get told well, you can't have adhd, you've got a career, you know, you've been successful, um, and so yeah, I think these are all myths that need to get squashed. I think they are getting squashed.

Managing Sensory Overload and Meltdowns

Dr Liz White 9:05

And Lauren, you mentioned the experience of meltdowns. So in my practice I work with adults, but I work with parents who have autistic children or children who are diagnosed with ADHD, so there's a lot of experience of what the parents would call meltdowns or sensory overload and it's so challenging, isn't it, to deal with that on a daily basis.

Dr Liz White 9:30

Do you have any tips about how to manage sensory overload and and these meltdowns that that children can have any sort of quick, quick tips, which I appreciate? It's going to be quite difficult when you, when you haven't met someone. But just in a general sense, what would you say?

Dr Lauren Breeze 9:48

Yeah, I think that's it. So meltdowns can be kind of understood, relating to the context of sensory overwhelm, but also other things as well might contribute. So for an autistic person, if they've experienced lots of unpredictability that day or if they've had, you know, lots of social interaction, that's felt really overwhelming and basically their capacity to cope is kind of there's more and more things that kind of mean that then they're, they become emotionally dysregulated. So one way of reporting somebody is to look at their sensory needs, and so for parents, what we would say is perhaps be open in thinking about what somebody's sensory needs are, and when we say sensory needs, that can mean the five senses that we all know about. You know taste, smell, touch and hearing that. But there are also some other senses that are important too. So we have our interoception, which is the way how we might understand what's going on in our bodies, um, like identifying hunger, identifying emotions, identifying thirst. There's balance, kind of vestibular, and also where our bodies are in space as well. So we we need to kind of be thinking of all of these different senses, and autistic people can be either under sensitive or over sensitive within each of these areas, and so really it's helpful to map out what your child's profile is as much as possible. You know that you can get support from an OT if that's really it needed, but the first step is really just to kind of maybe notice and, if the child is able to notice, to support them to work out what their sensory needs are in different environments, because they also could fluctuate, and then the tips are really around.

Dr Lauren Breeze 11:44

Okay then, what do we need? How might we manage sensory input? Are there tools that they can use? Often we're looking at adaptations to the environment. We're trying to make that, trying to change that actually, um, to be more appropriate or more suitable. But there might be things we've worked with, uh, parents who have told us the things that they like using as well, like earplugs that manage sound, creating a bag or grab bag of sensory tools, like fidget toys or using a blanket, having a cuddly toy available, having a strong mint or something that's flavorful, that that is grounding, so it it is. There's kind of everybody's unique and so everybody's needs are different. So really it's about trying to identify somebody's sensory needs and seeing if there are ways to meet them, and also throughout the day as well. So these are, almost before the meltdown happens, trying to use sensory tools to regulate yeah, I think.

Dr Jo Muller 12:48

I think it's like definitely like the first step is really important not to skip that. Lauren was just saying there you were developing a checklist at the moment as a resource for our parent community, so that it's a way of mapping it out in a really concrete way. And I would also say another thing is to look at situations that involve sensory overload for your child, but also for you as a parent, and think about, like why you're doing, why you're in those situations. Some of them might not be possible to kind of reduce or change or avoid, but sometimes we sort of find ourselves doing things because we think we should do it or because society thinks we should do it.

Dr Jo Muller 13:31

I've worked with a lot of parents who've said you know, I really used to think I had to take my child to soft play, even though we both hate it and you know there was one or both of us would end up having a meltdown somewhere along the line. Now they say, you know, we just we just don't go, you know, and if there's a party there, we just say no, thank you to those things and we don't feel like we're failing. And they used to feel like they were failing, but now they are making kind of an active choice to say no. This isn't good for my nervous, so I think that's important too.

Dr Liz White 14:00

It's challenging, though, isn't it, because there are situations that you can't avoid. So school is one example, and I'm going to guess that there are some schools that are very supportive and some that maybe aren't, or there's a mix. Do you have any tips for that, like, would you be sort of actively trying to work with the school, or does school have specialist support that then helps? I mean, what's the? I'm not sure of the situation in the UK anyway.

Dr Jo Muller 14:28

I think it just varies so much school to school is to be honest. I think there's some schools that are fantastic, that are really open to hearing from parents and also like if you, your child, has had an assessment and has recommendations in it. I think some schools are brilliant and will really go out of their way to try and implement sensory strategies to support children, and some schools are less so and parents can find themselves really having to spend a lot of time advocating for a child. You know we offer assertive communication skills training to parents in our community for this type of reason, so that you can feel like you're advocating for your child in the best way possible. Lauren said having an occupational therapist on board if there are significant sensory needs can be really helpful and having them liaise with the school can be a helpful thing to do how would you get access to an occupational therapist?

Dr Lauren Breeze 15:30

sometimes they're part of MDT in CAMHS, you know, when we're working in kind of child mental health services so valuable, I think to. Well, I think me and Jo both think that having access to the multidisciplinary team of a speech and language therapist, an occupational therapist, psychology, psychiatry and that's a real value. I think of NHS services that are able to provide that MDT. So sometimes when a child has had an assessment, there might be an OT available either as part of the assessment or subsequently, obviously privately. I would always recommend an assessment by an MDT for a child and that's in line with the NICE guidelines as well. So hopefully that is available. But there are OTs that work privately too, and so it might be that seeking out a private OT assessment I know lots of parents who have done that and also lots of adults actually that have done that individually to kind of figure out what their sensory needs are, if they feel like it's not enough in terms of what they are able to research for themselves and understand for themselves.

Mental Health Challenges for Parents

Dr Liz White 16:38

Okay, mental health challenges, because because obviously that's big, isn't it, when you are a parent and you have a neurodivergent child or neurodivergent children. Can you tell us some of the mental health challenges that might show up for a parent?

Dr Jo Muller 16:55

Yeah, I think this is a really big topic and you know, as I said at the beginning, I work with parents and I work with parents kind of lots of different parts of the journey. I don't just work with neurodivergent parents or parents of neurodivergent children, but quite a large proportion of parents that come to see me will fall into that category, because they're the ones that need extra support, you know, know, and that get to that point where they're not sure what to do next with their parenting and because their mental health is suffering and sometimes their child won't have a diagnosis yet or they won't have even really considered that their child might be neurodivergent and maybe that they themselves are neurodivergent and that's something that we might explore together. Or it might be that they're a bit further along that journey when they come to see me. But certainly you know the research backs this up that we know that parents of autistic children and ADHD kids do experience much higher levels of stress and typically developing children. We know, you know they tend to be a lot more anxious and they might be struggling with their relationship with their partner. That's really, really common. So I actually work with parenting couples a lot, where there's different opinions on how to approach the situation.

Dr Jo Muller 18:12

Obviously, parents are coming with different narratives from their own childhood. One parent might feel, you know, the solution to this is to be much more strict than we're being. The other one might feel, no, no, I think we need to be more lenient. We need to kind of understand our child's needs and kind of meet, you know, match those a bit more. And the other one's like, well, no, they'll never learn unless we kind of set some boundaries. And that's obviously incredibly stressful to be living in that situation where just neither of you really know what to do and you disagree, so you know.

Dr Jo Muller 18:44

Then, to go back to the advocacy that we were just talking about in terms of schools, you know parents are struggling with trying to help their child's needs be met. Maybe that maybe their post-diagnosis, and they're trying to get their kids needs met. Maybe they're just on that journey towards thinking, okay, maybe my child has some differences, but what's going on here? You know, parents, often I wrote a blog about this because I have so many parents coming to me really confused they're sort of you know, is my child different or am I imagining it? Is my child different or is it because I'm a bad parent and it's just something about my parenting that's causing these difficulties. And those narratives are often really fueled by people around parents, whether it's teachers or nursery staff or ex members of extended family. You know saying oh well, you know you just need to do this, or no? No, you know, they're fine, there's nothing.

Dr Lauren Breeze 19:34

There's nothing wrong we've not noticed it at school.

Dr Jo Muller 19:37

You know no. And and then of course parents don't have as much time to meet their own needs because they're so busy kind of managing these high levels of stress, maybe meltdowns at home. If children have been masking all day at school, they're coming home. There's these big, big outpourings of emotion and, you know, you can just see these vicious cycles of both kind of real stress in the home of trying to parent a child and you're not sure how best to do that, but also there's these internal cycles of self-doubt and guilt and stress going on there. It's really hard, it's really hard.

Dr Lauren Breeze 20:50

It's so hard and then, coupled with that lack of support from the community, especially before diagnosis, coupled with that lack of support from the community, especially before diagnosis. But you know, we we've been talking about how, you know, parents feel, gaslit by society around. You know that, being disbelieved about their real struggles, that their child is having, and that causes a huge stress and conflict, and then not having time to go and do the things that help you.

Dr Liz White 21:17

Yeah, you know, it's just, yeah, a vicious circle, like joe said and I've worked with a lot of parents who, you know, are in that sort of phase of what we've. We've got a diagnosis, but there's no support and they're just left to it and not knowing how to manage what the future looks like, um, how to manage their other kids like it's. I mean. You, joey, talked about stress there. I mean it's, it's so stressful, but it's it's even more stressful when you don't know what to do or where to go. I think that's why why I wanted to get you both on, because I think the community that you're building and what you're building with your business is amazing. It's such a great resource. Thank you, thanks.

Dr Lauren Breeze 22:07

No, thank you.

Dr Liz White 22:07

Liz.

Coping in Neurodivergent Households

Dr Lauren Breeze 22:09

Yeah, I mean, having our community is so invaluable we know that about mental health anyway that social support is often overlooked but really crucial and knowing that you are surrounded by people that get it and understand how it is and how difficult it is, it can't be underestimated. Really, coupled with putting out resources and practical webinars for parents to to learn you know, for example, emotional regulation skills and how to prioritize their own well-being, which is incredibly important given what we've said. Um, but there's not much out there post-diagnosis. So, yeah, or just kind of generally often around for for neurodivergent people. So our community for neurodivergent parents if they're identifying themselves or wondering for themselves or or diagnosed, and often they have neurodivergent children, because we know that neurodivergence is highly heritable so we've we've talked about the mental health challenges, particularly stress.

Dr Liz White 23:13

Do you have any tips for managing stress as a parent who's raising a neurodivergent child?

Dr Lauren Breeze 23:21

yeah, we this is a one of our favorite topics, um. So we've written a blog about emotional regulation and we're actually creating a resource, a self-paced course in our community, um, around practical strategies for managing stress or emotional regulation. And I suppose managing stress we kind of mean, you know, noticing how we feel and meeting those needs, and that might be stress, but it might be other emotions as well. So I think what in terms of what is practical, it sounds obvious and it's really hard to do. It's giving yourself permission to prioritise your own wellbeing as a parent. And it's that kind of age old metaphor around putting your own oxygen mask on first when you're on the aeroplane, because without that you're not going to be able to support anybody else. And I mean, I'm a parent and it's really hard to do.

Dr Lauren Breeze 24:17

I'm sure you know parents do find it hard to prioritize their own wellbeing, but when we're in a community talking about this and the necessity of this, you know it is really important. And that might look different now that you're a parent too. You might not have the time to do the things that you used to use to cope, you know, a couple of hours at the gym or reading a book or whatever it used to be. And so I think, figuring out what's possible within the amount of time you have, whether that's, you know, starting really small with you know, small steps every day, it might just be a check-in with how you're feeling and a moment to, you know, do some calming, breathing, for example, and that might be all you've got time for.

Dr Lauren Breeze 24:59

I think another thing we talk about and really try to kind of encourage parents to think about is how they talk to themselves. So often we find parents are quite highly self-critical and especially neurodivergent parents. They might have internalized a narrative of self-criticism or that's kind of how they have learned to talk to themselves and actually we know that perpetuates stress, so that keeps people's stress levels going. It keeps us in fight or fight freeze mode. So if there are ways to notice that and shift a narrative to be more self-compassionate, it's a skill and requires a lot of practice. We're running a webinar actually about it soon, but it's a really fundamental part of kind of just trying to shift that narrative of self-talk every day.

Dr Jo Muller 25:47

I was just going to add, lauren, that I think that a couple of things that can help with that shifting to a sort of more self-compassionate way of talking to ourselves is one people do find that if they are neurodivergent themselves, that either kind of self-identifying or having a diagnosis really helps with that, because suddenly things start to make sense and they start to realize that actually, you know, maybe not all of this was their fault.

Dr Jo Muller 26:12

And also, if your child does get a diagnosis eventually after like this long period of thinking, am I imagining it like? Was this, you know? Is this something I've done as a parent that can be incredibly helpful for parents. Self-compassionate talk and also being part of a community, I think as well, is that knowing that you're not on your own, you're not the only one experiencing these things.

Dr Liz White 26:32

I do think that that makes a big difference to parents ability to go a little bit easier on themselves and I know that obviously not everything's sort of neat and tidy, isn't it we've been talking about? I think the way they've been asking the questions is a, a neurodivergent child, but actually for a lot of families you may have one or two parents who are neurodivergent, with all of the children neurodivergent as well. So you've got to a household of very, very differing needs and sensory needs and experiences and certainly in my work it it can be a real challenge to make sure everyone's needs are met. Do you have any insights into, like if someone's listening and they are living in a household like that sort of how to navigate that?

Dr Jo Muller 27:25

yeah, I think it is to just to say that that is hard. It's really hard and you know we've worked with a lot of families as well in that situation. It makes sense. It's when neurodivergence is heritable, it's likely that you're going to be in that situation and sometimes it's really helpful because you have an insight into understanding your child's needs and sometimes those needs line up, but sometimes they are kind of opposite. If you've got a child that really needs to make a lot of noise and you're really noise sensitive, that can be really tough.

Dr Jo Muller 27:54

I think we always start from again, that place of acknowledging what, what is happening, trying to get a bit concrete about okay, what are my needs, what are my child's needs, maybe writing this down, mapping it out, basically being quite honest. And I think that that part can be quite hard. For parents even to get to that point of actually noticing what their needs are in the first place, becoming aware of that, then communicating that to you know, to the family, before they even get to the point of giving themselves permission to meet those needs, is that it's kind of like a three-step process in a way. So everybody kind of mapping it out, everyone in the family being aware and then you're at a point where you can think, right, what can we do? What can we practically do? What we know, what can't we do? What can we do?

Dr Jo Muller 28:46

Some of it does go back to kind of letting go of what society expects of us. You know, a lot of neurodivergent families are saying you know what? There's this rule that's come from somewhere that we all have to sit down for dinner together every night and that just doesn't work for many neurodivergent families, that type of thing. You know those are the things that can go first. You know, say you know what that's not good for us in our family. We're not going to do that and that's going to be much better for everybody's levels of overwhelm.

Dr Jo Muller 29:15

You know, I think, being practical about it. Just to go back to your kind of previous question about practical things you can do to cope, like figuring out what it is actually for you, because you know some people like breathing we know physiologically is helpful and likely to help people, but some people do find it really hard. You know, lying in a bath with a candle might sound nice but you know that's not regulating for some people. So really pinning down what is it for you and for your child that does help. It might be something you know a little bit out there or a little bit you know. Strange that you haven't thought of so kind of really keeping an eye out for those things that you do find regulating in our community.

Dr Lauren Breeze 29:54

Some people have been talking about cold water swimming, for example, and they really prioritize that and that's yeah. For them, that works better than a moment of mindfulness or something like that yeah.

Dr Jo Muller 30:06

So I think there's no like simple answer, but I think coming back to the awareness of what the needs are in the first place is the step to be able to start moving towards. Okay. How can some of these needs be met?

Dr Liz White 30:21

and I'm curious about you mentioned earlier about about societal norms, isn't it, and expectations around certain things like dinner times, but also thinking about the wider family or friends who have opinions about how you should parent, especially grandparents, grandparents, for example. How do you navigate that if you have other people sharing their maybe judgmental opinions about how you should parent your neurodivergent child? This?

Advocating for Your Child

Dr Lauren Breeze 30:57

is really hard and so common we are kind of. Our understanding about neurodivergence is constantly changing. Really, even in the time that we've worked in this area, the language has changed, how we're recommending supporting somebody has changed, and so, in a way, it's understandable that perhaps people who are less familiar with the updates are perhaps more judgmental, perhaps related to that lack of understanding of all of the changes. You know, we are seeing an increase in diagnosis rates, and that's really helpful and important, and it's not because we're over diagnosing, it's because these people have not had the chance to be understood and recognized yet and, um, we weren't spotting it before, and now we're getting better at spotting it, both for children, but also for adults too, and I think that's interesting as well.

Dr Lauren Breeze 31:59

Around often we we find parents where their child might have had a diagnosis and then they are starting to question their own neurodivergence and then they might start to question neurodivergence in the wider family, for example, and so I guess it's starting from a point of you know, is it a case of needing to help people to understand our new ways of thinking about neurodiversity, neurodivergence and what is helpful?

Dr Lauren Breeze 32:28

And it might be that that's the case because things have changed so much and people are less familiar. But it might be that people around you aren't able to kind of come on board with those new ideas or those new ways of thinking. And then I suppose it's about trying to build a village of people around you that are on board with what you're doing, what you're, you know, how you're understanding your child and what they need, the language you're using about your child, what you're recommending, what you know, what you find helpful, and I suppose that that can be really tricky because it's hard to find a village and it's hard then to know what to do about your existing village as well and about you know how much energy you spend in educating and helping people to understand and how much energy you put into creating or creating a supportive network of people around you that are on board because in situations where a lot of let's you know, take the example of grandparents a lot of grandparents look after grandchildren, don't they?

Dr Liz White 33:38

and I think if there is a difference in opinion, if the grandparent doesn't believe in the whole my grandchild's autistic or an ADHDer and then does things that are perhaps triggering meltdowns or triggering what they might see as bad behaviour, I'm guessing it would be about communication and setting boundaries, perhaps, or if the education part isn't working yeah it's really difficult, isn't it?

Dr Jo Muller 34:10

it's. It's really difficult and I think there is an element of you've got to sort of balance things. Sometimes it's a bit of a drip, drip, drip effect and sometimes, you know, initially grandparents might be very against it, but perhaps, you know, they start to hear a little bit on the news and then they hear a bit from their friend whose grandchild's also been diagnosed autistic, and there's, we're lucky now. You know, compared to a few years ago, there's so much more in the narrative in society now and I think that is really helpful. Of course, you know, as Lauren was saying, grandparents themselves might be undiagnosed neurodivergent and maybe that can contribute a bit to the rigidity around their, the way that they're thinking about it. And you know, everything was fine when they were growing up and they didn't need diagnoses. So what's this all about?

Dr Jo Muller 35:01

now yeah most people want to keep grandparents involved in their children's lives and you know, unless things get to a really need to you know that's a really toxic place um yeah.

Dr Jo Muller 35:13

I think, you know, sometimes I've spoken with parents about writing a letter. Even if kind of one-to-one direct communication isn't working or isn't easy, writing a letter using assertive and emotionally connected communication skills around. You know, I feel, um, this is what we need, this is what my child needs. You know, we really appreciate you. We'd love it if you could at least come on side with us some of the way. You know, do you think you'd be able to help? Like what do you think you would be able to? To shift to, to help us type of communication, keeping your values in mind, in terms of your values around keeping that relationship going, but also your values in terms of what you firmly believe you know your child needs. Sometimes that can sort of take the heat out of things a bit and allow you to say what you want to say and give grandparents a bit of time to actually read things through, without sort of the emotion of the moment and it might be kind of modeling.

Dr Lauren Breeze 36:12

That too, you know, like if it's if, because styles are different and parenting styles perhaps are different, and so if somebody might struggle to imagine what that might look like, if they are neurodivergent or for other reasons, you know, being able to model, using that assertive communication like this is what. This is the kind of thing that we would do in relation to managing or helping my child to cope with a meltdown, helping them to cope with emotional dysregulation. This is how I would handle it, and so having that concrete example can be useful.

Dr Jo Muller 36:49

If they were open to, kind of to to that conversation really and, I guess, validating to the grandparents that it's hard, like you know, we get it. We understand that this is, you know, new and you might not agree with us and it's different and we get that um.

Dr Lauren Breeze 37:05

Can we want you involved and and you know we appreciate the support that you're giving us and I think the other thing that becomes quite apparent isn't?

Dr Liz White 37:14

it is about the role that you have as a parent in advocating for your child in different settings, particularly school. I know we've we've touched on school, haven't we? But do you have any, any strategies for parents in the sort of advocating space you know, how can they advocate for their child, particularly in school?

Dr Lauren Breeze 37:37

it is so tough, isn't it? I think, and these assertive communication skills are are something that we we do recommend so often, um, because it is kind of figuring out how to express your needs in a assertive, calm way that's likely to get get you what you need yeah so kind of revisiting those as we've we've chatted about now, but potentially kind of finding an ally as well.

Dr Lauren Breeze 38:04

You know that often is a point of contact within a school that maybe the SENCO or perhaps the teacher that that understands the child that gets it, and so building on that can be really helpful, you know it might be. So you know EHCPs um are quite maybe a tricky to come by, um education, health care plans, but something more formal like that can sometimes help, but that that is hard. So kind of, if that isn't possible, maybe having a meeting with some of the key people at school, that might be similar to a bit of a planning meeting around. You know what have we all noticed? Trying to kind of collaborate um with school.

Dr Lauren Breeze 38:50

You know this is what we've noticed at home, this is what we've noticed at school, this is what's working at home. Is there any way of doing the similar at school? So I think trying to take that collaborative stance and finding an ally is a helpful way in really um, because that relationship, you know it, it's a long-term relationship being at school often, isn't it? So, um, yeah, trying to find a way forward together is is often helpful. But but really really tricky.

Dr Liz White 39:20

It is really tricky, especially if the school aren't helpful. Yes, um, but but no, there's some some great, some great tips there. So parents that are listening, that are maybe in at the start of this journey, they're kind of trying to get a diagnosis, or or they know that their child is neurodivergent what do you want parents to know?

Dr Jo Muller 39:43

I think sort of number one message is you know you're not alone. I think you can feel very, very lonely on this journey sometimes and I think you can feel like you're the only one in the school or in your friendship group and that might be the case, but there's often other parents are struggling and you sort of don't see it. But certainly you know in a wider sense you're not on your own. Um, I guess it's not. You know it's not uncommon, it's really common. You know autism and ADHD are a lot more common than we even thought just a few years ago and things really are changing. People's awareness and understanding of it really is changing yeah, I would.

Dr Lauren Breeze 40:23

Oh, you know their fault, sorry, go on Jo no, I was about to say that, oh were you, it's not their fault. Yeah, there's yeah. Just because we hear it so much, maybe that we're both on the same page, that we hear it so much that people feel blamed by society or gaslit, and it's not their fault. They are noticing that their child is struggling and they're not imagining it and they haven't caused it and it's perhaps, yeah, just trying to find out.

Dr Jo Muller 40:51

Yeah, find a village of people that help you to understand what that means yeah, and I would say also you know, once you've got that village, it's also much easier to see the strengths and the, the positives and the brilliant things about having, you know, a mind that sees the world in a different way. I think you know most parents. You know if you talk to a parent on an individual basis and you say what's brilliant about your child, and you always see their face light up and they tell you just this string of fantastic things about their child and holding on to that's really important and, you know, not losing all of that, you know, whilst acknowledging and validating that things can be difficult as well.

Dr Liz White 41:39

Lauren and Jo, thank you so much for your time today. There's so many great tips and insights and I'm sure lots of parents are going to find our conversation really helpful. Thank you so much for having us Liz.

Final Advice and Episode Closing

Dr Liz White 41:53

Yes, thank you so much, liz. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Hello Therapy. We'd love for you to join our growing community over on Substack. You can sign up for free or become a paid subscriber for you to join our growing community over on substack. You can sign up for free or become a paid subscriber for access to exclusive perks like never before seen video interviews and downloadable guides designed to support your mental health. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe so you never miss a new release, and if you got value from this episode, it would mean the world if you left a five star review. As always, check the show notes for my full disclaimer. Thanks again for listening.