Episode #13 - Pedal Power: Conversations with Jen Newbery, an Elite Female Triathlete and Bike Fitter

We delve into the world of elite triathlon racing and the art of bike fitting with Jen Newbery, who raced as an elite female triathlete, and has a passion for cycling.

As one of only a few professional female bike fitters in the country, and a physiotherapist, Jen has a unique perspective.

Join us as we explore Jen's racing journey, the intricacies of achieving the perfect bike fit, and the transformative impact it can have on your performance, and love of the sport.

Jen shares her expert insights on why every cyclist and triathlete should consider a professional bike fit, and discusses the challenges of navigating a male-dominated industry as a woman.

Tune in for insights into how bike fitting could help you to become a better athlete.

https://www.instagram.com/jen_newbs/
https://ukbikefit.com/
https://www.instagram.com/ukbikefit/

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Transcript

0:03

[Music] hi I'm tiia boothman founder of LTR coaching and I'd like to welcome you to the inspired triathletes podcast where I'll be bringing you stories from female triathletes and taking on topics that are important to women in the sport hello and welcome to today's EP episode I'm here with Jen Newbury from UK bike fit um and she's one of a handful of female bike fitters in the country so we're going to chat a little bit about bike fit and also her journey in Triathlon what she's learned along the way and any kind of female specific things that come up um we're going to talk about that so welcome to the podcast Jen it's great to have you on thank you so much for joining me um and how did you first get just give us a bit of an overview of how you got into Triathlon andsy I know you're a big cycling fan we just had a chat about your eight hour bike rids um but yeah how did you get into triathon and what's your kind of background in the sport um yeah so I H started Life as a swimmer so I was a swimmer when I was younger I grew up in the aisle of man um and I raised to a pretty high level um for swimming and then when I came to UNI I'd like kind of wanted to try Tron but there was no Club at the University so I carried on swimming and I'd always run as well um and always done really well in like Athletics and cross country essentially I think because I was spending like 20 hours a week in the swimming pool as a 15 year old which is quite a lot yeah um so yeah and then in my last year of uni some of the boys that I swam with set up a Triathlon Club and also um I'd been like left some money from a relative who died so I just decided to like buy a bike and go for it and I raced in like the university um championships and kind of H I had like flat pedals and trainers and stuff but I did loads better than I thought I wasn't I thought I'd be really rubbish at cycling CL it was the only one I've never done um and then yeah I did quite well and sort of from there I just like started to progress really and um raced um got into like the British Elite Champs um racing there and then yeah from there H went to the Commonwealth Games in 2018 for the Isle of Man and um yeah was racing like Elite racing and Super Series in and then sort of just kept like progressing from there um through like so I had my I race mainly the short core stuff but I also had my professional license to race um like 70.3 and well I never raced full Iron Man I just did a few longer ones towards the end of my career and then yeah retired at the end of 2022 oh nice so the 70.3 is came a bit later and which what do you think you enjoyed most um so think uh yeah I kind of just did those for like fun because I wanted to do something a bit different and just like have a go at it and everybody had said that would be a distance I'd be really good at and I think physiologically that would have been like I probably could have gone higher with that than I did do in the short goore stuff but I really really enjoy the short course stuff more I like um I really enjoy the cycling did although it was something that I'd was my the one that I hadn't done as a child it was it Qui became actually my favorite thing to do like especially in the elite race and the swim is like really messy and hard work and you just like want to get out alive and then when you get on the bike it's like I found it really fun because it was draft legal there's loads of cornering it's really technical it's like a proper you know it's a race where you've really got to think about what's going on and there's there's lots of stuff and um you know you can like make moves or make mistakes or whatever and I just found that a lot more exciting than in the 78.3 like essentially just doing yeah and uh like I said physiologically like I was really suited to that kind of highend tempo stuff and I'm quite good at just like putting myself in a hole for quite some time but I just didn't find it as like fun and exciting as um yeah the short course stuff so um and I was quite lucky I raced on like um in the French Grand Prix and things like that where you're part of like a team so it's yeah that like team aspect where you all stay together for the weekend and there's five of you when you're all racing for points for your team not just for yourself and I like really enjoyed that aspect as well rather than yeah on the 70.3 you're kind of just it's just for you that whole like you're kind of on your own and yeah yeah and you can't really get distracted by what's going on with other people in the race and things like that you have to really focus on on yourself that's what I like you're not always sure where like everybody else is so like um coming from like a swiming background especially on the longer distance racing like in the professional ranks like the swimming is not as quite the same standards as it is at Short Course at Short Course the swims a really high standard but yeah I would get out really near the front and um you you just don't know like where everybody is behind you and stuff like that and you're kind of like oh God I'm just yeah yeah um whereas yeah short course racing is generally like laps and stuff and you're like in a pack and you can see where everybody is and yeah I just kind of found that a bit more enjoyable can be a bit more strategic I guess with your with your racing and and kind of use the race and each race is going to be different strategically as well kind of add that interest into into the mix oh amazing yeah I mean I I did enjoy doing the 70 point THS as well but I didn't um I just felt like when I'd got to the end of my career like I'd like achieved everything I wanted to and I'd kind of had enough I didn't want to some people then leave the short C stuff and going to the long cor stuff and I was just like no I think I've done it now yeah yeah that's good to know like when you have like had enough that's you know because people can sometimes carry on even when they're you know they're not their Heart's Not in or they're just kind of doing it because that's what everyone else does and that's what is expected of you so that's that awareness and it was it was a super tough decision to stop because I actually that last year I had my best year and I think it was because I didn't feel any pressure from you know I didn't need to get certain results to make sure I still got this same sponsorship or that I was getting funding or whatever for the next year so I was just purely Racing for myself and it was just really I just said yes to races that I knew that I'd enjoy and I really really enjoyed it I think you can always kind of keep going um but I wanted to stop when I still loved it and not when I hated it and I never ever wanted to see a bike again or never ever yeah yeah you still had a bit of love for the for exising in that way I want to leave it thinking God I just hate this I don't ever want to go swimming or train or do anything again because I think people can push themselves to that point and it's it's like it's a very stressful job to have it's don't get me wrong it's a privilege but there's a lot of from the outside there's a lot of things that people don't see that you know every race has you are trying to achieve something to make sure that you make enough money or you get the sponsors or you get the funding or you get whatever and there's always that risk of injury and if you miss out on things and that is like that is quite stressful and it can take some of the fun out of it so that I really just that last year just thought well it doesn't matter because I Don't Need Your sponsorship next year so I'm I'm just gonna go for it and I just had the best time because I just really really like just did it for the love of it and there was no stress or pressure on me from like external people to have to do something in particular yeah that's almost what you want to be able to do when you're in the situ it's a shame like transplant that brain into when you're actually in the situation and I suppose you can to a certain extent do that with a bit of mental gymnastics but it's a lot harder when you know that there is that pressure but you can yeah you can there are tricks to sort of get that definitely are yeah oh that's really interesting so um when you so what was it that inspired you I know you a physiotherapist as well AR you so what inspired you to to be a bike fitter were you a physiotherapist when you were racing yeah yeah so I like went to UNI and did physio at Uni and then um for a couple of years like before I was kind of racing the elite stuff when I was still sort of trying out Triathlon um I like worked fulltime as a physo in the NHS and then um once I was kind of really committed to Triathlon and had sort of funding and things like that um I had a zero hours contract then in the NHS um with the trust that I had worked in for a few years so essentially I could work around my training racing it meant I could have big periods of time off to like go away racing and stuff so um like I didn't have to take annual leave and things like that but if you don't work as a physio for so long you essentially kind of lose your qualification have to do um like loads of stuff to to prove that you're still can um can be a physio um so yeah and then um after I retired I I still work I worked in the NHS again for a bit but I knew that I wanted to do something kind of related to my Sport and um yeah so I actually knew Dan who owns um UK bik fit because we had a job together when we very first started as physios um and it just seemed like the perfect fit because I just like I really enjoy cycling that's my favorite out of the three it's a physio job as well so like we assess everybody they have a full like physio like movement screen before we do the fit so that we can make the fit holistic and it's all personal for you and so yeah it was just like the perfect combo and Dan was willing to employ me and train me so that was perfect yeah definitely and so how many years have you been doing bike fit then um I've literally just been doing it for a few months now oh okay yeah cool yeah and what's it like then starting yeah it's great it was lots to like learn at the beginning and I thought oh I don't know if I'm going to be able to do this but um no it's really good I really enjoy it um essentially yeah just getting to talk to people about bikes all day and stuff yeah it's great yeah so how how do you think your experience in Triathlon kind of has helped influenced your approach to bike fit because I'm it's slightly different isn't it a tri bike fit to a standard road bike fit yeah so um yeah we are getting a lot more triolet done now Dan said since I've started which is great and I think just that like kind of knowledge and understanding I've got about one the training and like the injury risk that triathletes have which is different to um like the injury risk of cycling um and also like the event itself and how the different um the different causes different races and the length of the races will all vary and then that will obviously impact your fit um and also just that understanding of like if you're especially if you're doing a long course TRL you want to be air robot at the same time you don't want to um be so uncomfortable on your bike that when you get off you can't run a marathon and just having sort of that knowledge base around that and combining the two together to make sure that you're looking at it as a the whole Triathlon and the bike fit fits into that rather than we're just going to kind of fit you to your bike and not have any thought about the fact that you've just done a swim and you've got to do a run as well yeah yeah because you sometimes see people in quite extreme position and if you've got the the physiology to do that and be comfortable I guess it works and I think sometimes people see pros and they think I got to look like that it's like they' spent years trying to get themselves into that position you're not going to be able to do that right overnight and that's as well why like being the a physio is really important for that and why um you know so me and Dan look at everybody's you know how flexible you are how mobile you are look at all of that so we know what position you can actually get yourself into and you know where certain parts of your bike that might differ to somebody else's we don't just work to a number and we work to the person which also obviously um is really important especially for people who are trying to get like an AOW TT position but then also like I say need to run a really long way afterwards yeah and so how would that differ with your setup would you have a more kind of open hit position I or how yeah so it really depend like it depends on the person which is such a um vague answer but yeah like so you know if you've got really really tight hamstrings we're going to have your saddle at the lower end of the saddle height so um some Fitters will always use just like a certain measurement for your hip knee and Ankle like angle whereas again we would look at you for that and you know um quite a lot of triathletes like the really tight around the thoracic so again that would impact on being able to get into that like Arrow position um so yeah it would just really depend on what you look like and what you're racing to and also sort of your level of Fitness because how long you're going to have to sustain again if you're racing an Iron Man it's a really long way some people might be have an hour two hours different amount of time on their bike to others so that's also like a really important factor to takeen to consideration as well yeah I'd not thought of that actually like the amount of because it does vary wildly you're on your bik you look at the pros and they're doing 100 miles in very short amount of time compared to and you know we work with everybody from Pros to people who have literally just bought a bike and um you know are just thinking about doing a TR B so all of those things yeah we would take into consideration and essentially you know we um have a chat with you when we start as well and you know what your goals are is if your goal is just to get round and be comfortable and have enjoyable time we're not going to smack you in an arrow position that's so uncomfortable that you're going to hate it and think well I never ever want to touch this bike again yeah but you know um if you're going for some kind of record of something and you want you know you're happy to be uncomfortable and you know that you can manage that or whatever then yeah yeah it's a different different thing Alto together yeah that's right so what does it look like for you know beginners or people that are new to bike fit or have never had one before if they came in to see you what would happen just run us through I know You' s of touched on it but yeah yeah so basically we just sit down and have a chat about everything first so kind of like how long you've had your bike for what your goals are what you working towards if you've got any injuries and like how often you're riding kind of stuff like that so you know we know like the background of what you're doing with your bike whether you're brand new or whether you've been riding for like 40 years um and then we have a look at your mobility and flexibility so get you on the physio plint you know have a look at how tight you are where you're strong have a look at your cability things like that um like a general sort of strength and movement analysis um then we measure everybody's feet which people find really fun and they're like oh I've not had this done since Harden Clarks so we'll measure the length the width of your feet and your arch height as well so lots of people that have pain in their feet are wearing the wrong SI shoes because most people haven't had their feet measured since they were like 10 um and lots of people you know all um makes of shoe they'll vary slightly um in you know a a 39 in one could be a 38 or a 40 in another make of shoe so some people will just they've just stuck to buying the same shoe size since they were 18 and that's not actually the right or the right width is we get quite a lot um yeah and then so after we've had a look at your feet and we do um have shoes here so we sell Lake shoes which come in like narrow regular wide fits they do half sizes they do custom SI size shoe so if people have got like a half or a full size difference in their shoe they'll make you a um two different size of shoes yeah so that's why we kind of stop them is because we can find a shoe for everybody um so yeah and then after that we get you on the bike we've got videos so we'll put like stickers on certain like bony landmarks to Mark so we can measure angles of things um the um we've got like a wo roller so the back wheels on a roller but the front wheels fixed um and we it's on a little platform so we can spin it around and look at you from all the different angles and we'll check your cleat setup check your saddle height saddle setback and if you're having problems with like saddle saws and stuff we've got a pressure map so we put it over the saddle and you can sit on it it shows us like the pressure and where you're sitting on the saddle um yeah look at the front end um obviously with if you're on a TT bike um looking at all like your AOW position and your your TT bars and all that kind of stuff um and if you're on a road bike just yeah looking at your front end your handlebars all that kind of thing yeah okay so yeah I've had bike fits before and it sounds very similar to what to to the bike fits I've had with the pressure I've had that saddle pressure thing yeah and getting the right saddle can be quite a challenge some people think yeah but the shoe size I've never really thought about I've had someone look at my cleats before you know to check that they're in the right position but never really thought about Sho size because I had one pair of shoes I think the whole yeah exactly maybe like two pairs or something yeah and um like what quite a lot of cycling Brands their shoes are quite narrow um so like the regular fit in Lakers loads wider than like a regular fit and even a wide fit of some Brands like havic and physic they've got a really narrow shoe and lots of people come and they're like they put on the the shoes that are the correct size and like oh my God it's like a slipper everything's so much better yeah yes but and you can get more power transference than through absolutely yeah just be more comfortable that's really good okay so if you know you're a beginner or someone like that and you think oh I don't need a bike fit what what would you kind of say because I know this this is yeah something that I put off do for a long time and yeah and actually when I had it you know I was messing about with saddle he and blah blah blah so as long as I get my sad saddle height about right then everything else will be fine but when I did get a bike fit I was like oh this makes a quite a big difference is there any kind of advice or or things that you would say to someone that was thinking about getting a bike fit and not really sure whether it was for them because we think it's for someone that's doing much better or or more yeah well it's I mean a bike fit is for everybody and I like have the same thoughts of you as like yeah it'll be fine and I'm not a pro but essentially um if you are new to something and you're going to be really uncomfortable on your bike and it's really difficult to set up a bike yourself even if you get somebody to ride behind you or ride next to you like we watch everything and slow motion even if you like filmed it on your iPhone it's it's really difficult to do yourself but essentially if you're going to be new to it and you're going to be really uncomfortable you're not going to want to train you're not going to want to race you're not going to enjoy it if you don't enjoy something then you're not going to do well at it or be particularly successful and it is like I think people look at it like it's fairly expensive but actually in comparison to what you spend on a bike and what you spend on some new wheels and things like that like actually or all the physio that you're going to need if yeah and actually the bigger upgrade like before you buy yourself some better Wheels make sure the bike fits you first you'll go faster you'll be more comfortable you'll enjoy it like you'll have a nice time and I think a lot of people assume that like a saddle should be uncomfortable and like well that could never be comfortable and yeah if you're uncomfortable in the saddle to the point where you're not enjoying your bike ride or you're getting saddle sawce or numbness or anything like that there is a better position and a better saddle for you and so yeah I like a bike fit is for everybody if you're riding a bike have a bike fit before you upgrade anything else on your bike yeah and I think you know like the injury prevention as well that that's exactly as well it's like you're kind of it should be one of the first things you do once you've got a new bike really I see so many people riding in you know I go and watch Iron Man Wales usually when it comes oh nice around and I see people in really bad positions sometimes and oh you just need to do this you know a few little things it would be so much better but and and people do try and do it themselves and then you can get yourself into a bit of a mess because you change something and then it's just not quite right here then and then you start messing about somewhere else it's just yeah it's not worth ital to do it basically and essentially once you've done it so I mean we do a report afterwards that we we send out to everybody it's got all of their measurements and stuff on it so if you buy a new bike you can actually replicate those measurements yeah generally and you might have to come and get it tweaked but you won't have to pay for a full new fit you know so it is something that you just you can yeah definitely and again like the cost of a bike a bike fit is probably you know a tenth of it maybe even less depending on how much you're spending on your bike so if you look at it that way it's really not that much money to make sure that you're going to be comfortable and enjoy something you don't want to spend you know a few thousand pounds on a bike and then after a year well I'm just going to sell it and not ride it because you're not comfy yeah yeah for sure no it's it is worth it I think I there's a time triler that I kind of knew of and knew a little bit about because she was riding really well when I was riding time trials at the time and I met her at um there was like a training Peaks conference thing up in Manchester it was quite a long time ago now but she said said oh I met her in the like we had like a buffet Mee and greet thing I said oh you're such I can't remember her name now and she's like oh yeah I said I've been following you know because you're doing really well in races and what have you and she said yeah she said I've I've booked in for a bike fit with um Philbert who's who was doing a talk up there as well and she said I I came away and he was like you've just been suffering and Haven you it was like the first bike fit she'd ever had and she was like really good you know she was a really good time trailer she was winning like most of the races in that area and she said her saddled like pressure thing was just really bad and she'd just been like yeah there's almost this like well you're supposed to feel uncomfortable you're supposed to and there is some discomfort in being on the bike for a long time but it doesn't have to be the miserable experience do and and I think we yeah sometimes we do put up with stuff just because we yeah and I mean like I did and I remember when I found my saddle that like it was just like a game changer I sat was like oh my God this is this feels amazing I have no idea that I could just be this comfortable sat on a bike and I now have that saddle on all of my bikes and it is it's like yeah a light bulb moment when you find the right one yeah no I I found one in the last year that I started of my racing I don't know I was like oh I've just bought this really expensive saddle because it is quite expensive the one that I've got um but it was it's so good so much better than yeah and it'll you know last for such a long time it's not like you buy it and a year later you're going to have to upgrade it it'll you know uh no I know but I haven't ridden my bike my time TR bike it's just languishing in in the garage I'm thinking I might have to sell it because it's just sat there doing nothing but it's got a really nice saddle on it for for me anyway because not all Saddles you know are great because I think I posted a picture of it on Instagram and someone was like oh what do you think of and I was like well it's good it works for me but you know it might not because people see a saddle and they're like oh that must be a good saddle because they're talking about it and actually it might not be for you you need to get it tested so what what are the most common kind of bike fit issues that you encoun like when people come in and you're adjusting things what's the most common mistake or thing that you see people having issues with um I would say saddle height is the main one I don't think I've not adjusted to somebody's saddle height that's come in here yet um and then also the setback of your saddle so where it is on the rails um so lots of people like if their bikes a little bit long for them and they feel like they're reaching they would they'll push saddle forward um which essentially means you're then just pedling more over the front of the bike which will then kind of keep tipping you forwards even more and be even more uncomfortable yeah so if your bike feels a bit too long for you it's actually you need to bring the handlebars back don't try and push the saddle forward that's not going to solve that problem you're actually going to be less efficient when you're pedaling because you're not pedling over the bottom bracket anymore you're kind of just tilting over the front of the bike um and cleat position as well um which is something that's really difficult to do yourself so we have like a little tool that we use um to get cleats in the right place and then once we've done it again we can record it and you've got that forever you know exactly where your cleats need to be but yeah cleat position is a big thing okay so what happens with cleat position do people generally put them most people are too far forwards so generally you want to have your cleats as far back as possible because that's for most people where the head of your fifth metat tar is so that like bony bit that sticks out on your little toe um so essentially you want your cleat to be kind of more over like the ball of your foot and lots of people just kind of bang them in the middle which is again exactly what I did when I first started riding just shove it in the middle and I'm sure it'll be fine but then you kind of using more of your forefoot and your toes pedal so that's engaging your calf muscles rather than your quads and your glutes and your Cals are kind of Fairly useless when you're cycling in comparison to your quads and your glutes they're pretty small muscle and especially if you're a triathlete you're going to be using your carbs a lot when you're running so you don't want to be putting unnecessary strain through them when you're cycling kind of wearing them out um so yeah bringing a cleats back is usually the first thing um the rotation of the cleat is always different for different people but essentially you want to be able to move your um ankle be able to move it to both sides so there's flow in cleats so if you're um riding with like gray Kio cleats of the yellow spds you've got about six degrees of float which means that your foot can move and when you're pedaling and depending on whether you're like putting a lot of power down and you're doing a Sprint or if you're just riding really easy your foot will be in a different slightly different position in your shoe so you need to have that ability for your foot to be able to move to both sides um because it will want to move inside your shoe depending on how you're pushing through the pedal and if you can only move to one side and not move to the other and your foot wants to move to that side but it can't and that's when you start putting extra forces through like your knees and your hips and lots of people that's when lots of people get sort of pain on the outside of their knee um and yeah it can all be solved by just making sure that your cleats are in the right position okay there's a little while ago do you remember I don't know if you saw this but was it Daniela reef and she was riding with a really weird CLE position like quite far back do you know because I remember looking at it briefly and I was like what's all that about and there was a load of people talking about it and then there was articles about it and stuff but I didn't really get into it but what was all that about can you remember riding with her cleats further back on the shoe I think yeah she had them quite you know like in a in the middle of her foot almost I it was so I mean if she's got quite small feet that's probably like the optimal place for her for her her best power distribution um yeah that it again it's all specific to two people but generally the general population have their clees too far forwards right um and you know people love to comment on social media about stuff they don't really know about because I saw somebody commenting on Daniel R saying like your saddle's too low and she was like well it was fine when I broke the the world record so you know I know that's why I didn't really look at it because I was like oh there's people making a lot of noise and about something that's probably some you know she's got professional people around telling her to do but then everybody thinks oh she's got it like that so I should be doing it like that and I think you know if her if her foot's a size four and your foot's are size 11 You Know You're Gonna Want Your cleat in a different position to where she's got hers that will be the optimal position for her and for her you know her best power transfer like the best rotation for it yeah um that will be the best place but H yeah I think it's that thing is it it's like people see something and they think oh a Pro's doing it so therefore I should do that because they they're Elite and they're doing really well well it's like no because they're a different person to you and you can't just follow somebody else's advice or you know training plan or anything really it's got to be and with the CLE thing also some shoes will allow you to bring your cleats further back than other shoes so some shoes like the the little bit where you put the cleat in that'll be it it's fixed so you can bring the cleat as far back as where the little hole is whereas others you can actually there'll be like a little kind of rail and you can actually push the the little bit that you screw it into further back and so it depends on what kind of shoes you have as well yeah definitely okay yeah there was quite a lot of I don't know why I just popped into my head because I was like there was so much fuss about it it was like have people not got anything else to talk about crazy um so can have you got like any success stories or you know someone that's particular I know you've only been bik fitting for a few months but have you found any that are particularly rewarding that where you come get someone in and get them in a room well yeah I did um have a lady who came in and and she you know she was mainly just going out riding with like her husband she wasn't training for anything in in particular but she was on the brink of just giving up cycling all together because she was so uncomfortable um she had like really bad Saddles saws um really sofy Saddles saws were the main thing where like she tried so like she said we've literally spent thousands of pounds on like buying and then returning Saddles because and she just couldn't find anything that was comfy for her um but when I got her on the bike her whole setup was just like everything was wrong and first of all I got some shoes actually fitted it so yeah she was somebody who had really wide feet and once we got some nice wide shoes and put in the right place she was like oh my God my feet just feel great like I actually we had a pair of shoes and that were her size and stock and she put them on and was like well I just can't take these off now like I don't care how much they cost on having these shoes but yeah um like her entire setup was wrong so to the point where even if we found like the right saddle it wasn't going to be comfortable because she was that so far forwards on the bike like everything she was just like really really bunched up um so yeah we sort a position out did the pressure mapping tried loads and loads of different Saddles and um like normally people would just like buy the right saddle but I was just really conscious that she'd had so much problems so we loaned her a saddle for a while and yeah she came back like a month later was like I need to buy the saddle I'm so comfortable she'd never ever ridden back toback days before she was going out riding you know all the time doing further than she'd ever done and just really really enjoying it and it was so nice to that somebody who was just like I'm G to stop this this was like a last Stitch attempt having a bike fit was is now like out riding their bike all the time and having a great time and like that's what we really want is for people to just go just enjoy being out on your bike yeah that's amazing that's really cool and for her to sort of to have for you to have that feedback as well to know you know like it brings you back to that this should be one of the first things you do not all like before you're going to give up cycling you should be looking at getting yourself com and set up yeah and it was nice she said like she was really um comfortable talking to me as another woman you know about the problems that she'd had with her saddle and her saddle saws and things and that it was nice to have a woman bike fited that she could talk to in detail about you know where exactly it was appearing and you know I was like God that sounds awful whereas the man would probably think yeah it doesn't sound great but not think oh yeah that's exactly how they don't know what that would feel yeah well that sort of brings me on to the next question which is about you know special considerations are there any things that are unique to to women when you are bike fitting what are the kind of main differences and you know it is great that you can you know as a woman to woman there's certain things that you feel more comfortable discussing definitely yeah but is there anything that people gen um I mean to be honest we just look at everybody as a complete individual so I wouldn't say there's spe specific things that are totally different for men and women I think like the the way that a saddle would affect a woman because essentially the soft tissue that a woman sits on is very different to the soft tissue that a man sits on so that the saddle situation does affect a woman in a slightly different way to a man um men sort of you know tend to get a bit more like numbness and like actual kind of saws and things whereas women yeah if you're getting a saw right where you're sat like that is just fairly hideous because of um yeah we're sat right on the money effectively aren't we I had horrible saddle SS before and yeah I think I probably should have like done something about it earlier but I just I was like oh it's fine and I can't you know I can't deal with that right now and I did get it used to swell up quite a lot on on one side in particular and then it's like yeah it's just really horrible and then it just yeah it feels kind of gross as well kind of swelling whoa what's happening so yeah it can be quite um yeah so I think um oh uh sorry so I think yeah yeah yeah um I think it's just more that I've just got that understanding a little bit more but yeah essentially we just would treat everybody as a complete individual um and to what you know what your goals are how you're feeling on the bike how you're comfortable and I do think as well like a lot of women would say well I've tried a women specific saddle and I've tried this and I've tried that but again every saddle is completely unique um and I've sold women specifics women specific Saddles To Men because they found that more comfortable um so don't kind of fall down the rabbit hole of thinking well my friend really likes the saddle so I'll really like it because it's it's so unique to you and I've had like I had somebody in last week who rides the same saddle I ride and they were literally like this is the most uncomfortable thing I've ever sat on and I was like cool I'll buy it off you saddles for me is like amazing but yeah um I think people spend a lot of time on the internet looking at reviews of saddles and blah blah blah but essentially like I said before as well if your bike doesn't fit you then that saddle might be perfect but if it's in the wrong place it's not going to be comfy no I think I think they but I they measured the pelvic like my bones the pelvic bone as well to sort of get that is that have a look at like the width check yeah the width of the pelvis because that has enough impact doesn't it on your like choice of Saddle I think yeah so we just some of the Saddles have different widths don't they yeah there there are different widths of like the same makeup saddle um we have like quite a lot of saddles in stock of test Saddles that we can just try out so um yeah we we put the pressure map um which is like it's that shows kind of where you it shows exactly like where you are where you're sitting more on the saddle we can see if you're like more to one side or more to the other and also like obviously we can never feel how you feel sat on the saddle but it can give us an objective marker of like well actually if you're going to ride in this position for a really long time this is where you're going to develop the pressure because this is where you're sat more yeah okay okay yeah that makes sense definitely so are there any kind of things that are coming into bike fitting that you're particularly excited about or is there any sort of new stuff that that you can see would be useful to bike Fitters I mean it's quite like it's changed a lot since like when I started because when I started riding in the it was like 16 years ago or something there was stuff about but there was still a lot of people just using a kind of you know the what's that thing called where you drop it oh yeah I know what you mean um Plum line type yes yeah we use a laser yeah and also having the stickers and being able to see things on the screen and measure the angles on screen know you can get so much information is there any more kind of technology or stuff like that that's coming out that you're aware of that might like I think there's obviously big like there'll be big developments in AI stuff um at the minute um like I don't think that AI can offer what a human can offer and also because there like I said before there are some bike Fitters that stick to specific angles and put you know everybody's knee should be at this angle or everybody's hips or whatever um whereas me and Dan don't do that we work at on looking at you as a person which I think the the there is some great technology out there but the technology is only as good as the person using it so you need to know what to do with that technology but also like if you've not spoken to the person or you don't understand what they want or they need then cool you've got this result but it's how you use that yeah so like trying to fit everybody into this neat box rather than okay well this is the kind of parameters but exactly yeah see where you are within that and try and work I guess you try and work within the parameters but if you need to you go out to absolutely accommodate that person or yeah and I think essentially that's um that's mine and Dan's background as a physio anyway um is you know there's no one set thing for everybody everybody's an individual and like I think that's essentially why we do as well as we do and get like such great reviews is because we don't just fit everybody um try and fit everybody into the same box so yeah I think can you there must be huge variations within people with flexibility and strength and and their goals it's just a ma you know when you start thinking about it like that there's a massive amount of parameters and and even to put that into Ai and it's like how do you give that information to computer or you know that's going to calculate it it's similar with coaching you know we've got AI coaching coming out now and yeah I've just done this because um Tri dot of I've taken over Iron Man so I had to do the course my qualification anyway they were like it was it was all about how AI helps and does you know it makes the right it it was saying how coaches can make different decisions like depending on the day or whatever they'll make different decisions across the day but AI will you know was so much better because it does this like well sometimes it's you need that you need that flexibility yeah to be able to to just you know you're interacting with a human being aren't you yeah exactly yeah so it's like you need to pick up on what that human is thinking and feeling and saying and and you have feedback going between the two of you if you've got AI it's like you're not you're only getting kind of one-way feedback with that yeah definitely and yeah an AI could program like for you as to or a Tempo session or whatever but if you're feeling really crap and you need to change the day or you need to do something and like again you might have two people that you're coaching that are both training for an Iron Man but both respond to very different types of coaching and you might know that actually this session just isn't going to work for this person whereas AI doesn't so I do like technolog is great and like you know the pressure mapping and the video and everything that we've got but I don't think that would ever can ever sort of take over the quality that you get from an actual person yeah for sure I think that's that is true because the relationships that you build up as well you know it's like you you have that nice feedback from people that come back and say you know that's that's worth a lot and I think we don't always appreciate that yeah you know we don't always sort of see it as as as important as it is that's what I'm trying to I think that's what I'm trying to say yeah because it is really important you know being with people and you know like interacting and and even just like having those little chats of people like you know giving them tips about things that they wouldn't get from AI like you know when I've had a few people who are brand new to Tri up on here and talking them through like the shoes and Transitions and you know how to mount your bike and stuff like that which you're not you know they're just like extra little bits that you get that you didn't expect to get from a bike you would get from a computer yeah and it's your experience and your outlook on it your Viewpoint which is going to be so unique and different to anyone else's and that's really valuable and yeah those little interactions like you say yeah like my brain keeps going like I think of something and then it sort of like disappears out of my head I'm like oh yeah I'm must star that and then it sort of goes goes out of my head so for with future sort of AI input you see more of a probably integration of like AI kind coming together using the tools within your set and there's still I guess there still going to be people that are just going to rely on AI because it's easier it's like oh just do it like that because you see technology all the time don't you yeah it's like I'll just follow the tech because that's going to be easy I don't have to think as much or do as much and then there's going to be people like yourself that integrate your business that and make it a tool for you rather than yeah that yeah than relying solely on that yeah definitely so what's it the other thing I wanted to ask you I just remembered it again was um so when I started coaching because it it's quite a male dominated area it was kind of like I guess it was I I kind of fell into this like I need to know there's a lot of information that I needed to learn and and pick up and a lot of it is because the sport is quite male dominated we see a lot of things that are geared towards men and and we've not really thought about how that impacts women or what what what is another Viewpoint or another way of looking at it which that a woman would be coming at it from I suppose I I felt quite insecure in that I need to learn all of this stuff and be really sort of I need to be like this like this is what a coach looks like it looks like a guy that knows all this scientific like loads of you know data and information blah blah blah which I do know and I I quite enjoy but there's another side to it that sort of got lost there because I felt like I had to be a certain way do you feel like that's something that's happened to you or or that you've noticed or yeah I do like obviously the cycling I mean we get more cyclists than triathletes and and the cycling world is even more male dominated than the tri World um and yeah we do get a lot of um men in here when I first started um like when Dan was first um training me I thought oh my God like there's all these men that know so much about their bikes and like I'm just um you know I have taken my bike All Around the World Racing it and I know plenty about it but yeah I think um there are times when you just feel insecure about that kind of stuff definitely but just um I mean Dan like was just like fantastic at training me and um you do just learn things along the way and I think you know you've got to be okay with that and you know there are times but there's like 90% of the men that come in here are lovely there's the occasional one that doesn't really love a woman knowing maybe more than them and um but I think it's like um Dan said we're getting so many more women in here now that I'm here and that's something that I'm really happy about because I really advocate for women to be riding and love seeing women out on their bikes um especially like groups of women it's so often you see groups of men and just like one woman on their own I'm often that one woman but um just having lots of women in and you know just really pushing it forward so that um I think Tron is becoming more much more even now where is cycling still behind and I would love to see the day where cycling is a similar to triathon and it's you know even men and women and I do think um as women we do offer different um strengths to men's you know we are a bit more sort of emotionally driven rather than like data driven and stuff and you know that's just the way that women are wired in comparison to men and I don't think we should really see that as a weakness because we can just offer different things so um yeah in terms of like coaching and stuff I've had similar conversations with people here who are being coached and not enjoying it because it's so data and Science and some people are like that and that's perfect for some people but it's not for other people um so yeah I think there's lots of different things that that women can offer and I hope that there's just going to be more and more female bike Fitters out there and more and more women out on their bikes yeah no that's it's really inspirational to to hear you say that as well to hear you saying that it just it does show that you know like like you I'm used to being like one of the only women in a group of guys and it didn't really bother me but it it's quite nice when you are with women you know it is quite it's a different experience and I didn't appreciate how different it was and and also how valuable that is for women coming into a sport that where they feel a little bit new and they want that support maybe or I mean you don't even have to be you know it's just sometimes it's just more fun is it to be with yeah and I you know I'm a woman working as a bike fitter but sometimes I would go into a bike shop and I know exactly what I want doing to my bike or you know I might not I might know how to do it and I don't have the right tool or whatever but I'll still feel insecure going in there because there's loads of male mechanics and they'll just look at me like well you're a a woman who doesn't know anything um and so I think you know people coming in here they might just feel a little bit safer knowing they're coming to see me and you know I'm never going to judge you if you don't know how to take your wheel off or do anything because there was a day when I couldn't do that either and I just think it's a little bit um yeah people maybe feel just like it might be a bit nicer to come and see another woman and yeah I'm really happy to to be that woman for people yeah we've all been there haven't we like not knowing yeah definitely what to do so like you know we all have to learn how to change a puncture and things like that and yeah there's there's no worries I like I had a lady the other day and she had taken her wheel off and put it in the car and then she couldn't get her wheel back on and she came up and asked me and I I feel like potentially if I was a man that would have been you know I actually would have been nervous to come up and say to the man oh God I can't get my wheel back on but I was like yeah don't worry it's absolutely fine you know she had a disc wheel it's a nightmare to put a disc wheel back on her at the back wheel of her bike you know yeah yeah no that's really good yeah yeah love it awesome okay again my brain has kind of went up on a tangent and then has not come back to where where I was thinking but yeah no I think it I was just generally kind kind of like interested in that point of the the insecurity and the and there sort of yeah and it can be a bit intimidating yeah so we do it's good to see like more women coming coming into these positions and going okay come on yeah let's bring lift each other up bring each other yeah definitely help each other and support each other rather than being like Oh God I remember sometimes going in the bike shop i' be like right I need to make sure and I know exactly what so I don't look kind of like almost revised for going literally yeah I mean I remember going into a bike shop and saying and like I'd I'd got my bike and I I'd been living in the aisle of man so like I'd just come back over and like I was living with my friend for a couple of weeks before I moved into my house and like so all my tools and stuff at home and I knew was like I I need a new cassette but I haven't got anything to take it off I'll just go in the bik shop and ask them to do it and I had the cassette as well was like went in and the guy was like okay love well first of all I was like oh God he's like well let me just check that over for you because it's might not be what you need and I was like I know that it's what I need and if I'd sent a man in here he would have been like oh yeah mate let me do it for you no problem 10 minutes later he came back and he went oh well yeah you don't need a new chain but you need a new cassette how did you know that and I was like this is why I don't like coming in the bike shop send my partner in there instead and say he doesn't even really ride that much but I'm like this is what I need will you just go and get sort he'll go in and be like they're lovely why were you worried about that yeah know there was one particular bike shop I used to hate going in because it was just the you can feel it can't you you can feel when you walk in and I'm not saying everywhere is like this and sometimes you get into this kind of thought of like I'm seeing it through this lens of they're going to look at me like a woman and I don't know what I'm talking about so you can kind of fall into that but there was definitely like a vibe in some places where you're like oh I can tell they thinking this stuff about me and it's really not helpful yeah yeah and it's just yeah it's like sort of presuming before you've even spoken to someone you know it's like you need to like you know it's part of your job isn't it to get to know and not sort of assume that by looking at someone that they're going to be a certain way you talk to them you listen and you understand and you don't just kind of like assume that oh that person is going to be like this because you have no idea do you no but yeah I think it can be intimidating for women starting out cycling um especially when you see the big groups of of men all out on the road together and yeah so hopefully it's it's not intimidating to come here yeah no it sounds like you're doing a great job with people and making them feel welcome and included so that's aesome yeah I I think I've just remembered what I was going to talk about as sort of ramble about now don't know it was just because you mentioned cycling um I this is going to be the last thing I bring up because I'm conscious of time but you talked about cycling being behind and I think the time trialing scene was really like definitely like that I don't have you yeah yeah yeah um I just all of it you know like and I found it because I used to do a lot of cycling events essentially as training for triathon so like crit racing as you know it would be like a hard training session for me but you know hill climbs time trials whatever it was there would be like there weren't no prizes for the women or the woman just the first woman would get a prize or they wouldn't even get anything or it was just like I just found it because in Triathlon you know we race the same distance as men we get the same prize money as men um like when you're racing on like the um itu circuit or even in like French Grand Prix and things sometimes the woman event the women's event would be the main one and then the next one you do is the men's event it would never it wouldn't always be you know the women are in the afternoon the men in the evening they would swap it around yeah and then I would go and do a cycling event and be like why are there no women here why are there no prizes for the women like I you know it might be a local TT and there's a tenor or whatever but it would literally be like for the first three men they do all this stuff and there'd be men vets all all the different categories of men and then it would be like oh overall women's winner you know you get a handshake grats like what this is just not right is it and then it's like oh well there's there's not as many women here yeah and I think well you're not attracting it to women so you know they're not going to turn up because you're making it so male orientated but yeah I could I could run about that for a while but I just found it I think I found it even more because I can't come from a spot where you know it is it's much more equal um to then yeah be going to all these races and was like what on Earth what is this no I know I know I noticed it as well because coming from triathon and I was like I've just done this time trial oh I've got second and it's like well you don't get anything for that yeah yeah no one's going to appreciate that um effort even though you know you you turned up you put the effort in the same as else so why shouldn't you get a prize it's crazy yeah I don't know whether I think it sort of started changing when I was stopping doing time traling but I don't know yeah I mean the women's professional scene is you know it's getting better and better but it is still nowhere near the men's you know um when the tour of Britain was on recently it was like when you watch even when you watch it on the TV um you there's none of this like the main group and how far they are from the Pelon and you know all the different timings there there's no nothing and even like the footage of it like I was watching some of the tour Britain with my uncle and we were like are we watching something from back in time like why is the just why is it so like grainy and terrible and and how long have they got left to go and where's the Sprint and where's all this whereas obviously you know when you're watching the men on the tour to France you've got all the groups there you yeah you've got all of the data you've got everything you know where everybody is you know how long they've got till the end you know who's in which Jersey and whatever and yeah just like well no wonder nobody's watching the women's cycling because you don't know what's going on yeah yeah no it has it's still got a long way to go hasn't it it's like a a big sort of ship that has to slowly turn it kind of it can't really happen that quick because it's been so long I guess yeah being you know it has it got better like the pay has got better and there is a minimum wage now which then there didn't used to be a even just a few years ago so that is improving but yeah it's got a long way to go but hopefully the more and more um you know we keep talking about it and the more women that come into cycling positions and things like that you know it will just keep growing and like I said I'm a real advocate for women to be out cycling definitely and it's seeing and it's it's bringing those points to attention because a lot of the time I think it's just blind spot they don't even realize that it's happening you know if it's not affecting you then you're not going to realize it happens so that's why women need to be in the industry and within the sports and this is happening and it's not fair you know also if people see those people so you know if people see oh well I saw this podcast and this girl's a a woman bike Fair cool that's a job a woman can do so you've got to see people in these positions to you know to realize that you can do that as well yeah definitely oh it's been really great talking to you I'm sure we could talk for hours about ranting about cyle time trial and all sorts of stuff um but how can people kind of get in touch with you book a bike fit um follow you and and find out what you're up to I'll put the links in the in the bio yeah so we've um UK bik Fair have got their own Instagram so it's just ukbike fair um you can like message us on there or you can um email oh am I still there sorry my phone low battery um H or you can email info at UK bike Fair um and then me and Dan are both just Jen or Dan at UK bik fair and then uh my Instagram is um Jore nubes if you know you want to see what's going on but yeah um you can just message us on or email us if you've got any queries about booking a fit or anything and you can find it all online on UK bike fit amazing okay well I'll put some links in the description as well so that people can find that easily thank you thank you so much for joining today it's been great to talk to you really enjoyed it thanks for listening today have a great day take care bye 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