Episode #20 - What Coaches know that AI doesn't with Caroline Livesey

In this episode, we dive into the fascinating world of artificial intelligence in coaching with special guest Caroline Livesey, a professional triathlete and two-time winner of the super inspiring Patagonman Xtri. Caroline joins us for an engaging discussion about how AI is entering the coaching landscape, sharing her insights as an athlete and coach.

We explore the promises and limitations of AI tools in traithlon coaching, from data analysis and personalised plans to the irreplaceable human touch that brings context, intuition, and empathy to the table.

Key topics include:
✅ How AI works to produce a plan.
✅ The issues with producing plans solely based on data.
✅ Why human coaches remain essential for emotional support, adaptability, and learning.
✅ Caroline’s unique perspective on the implications for female athletes.

Follow Caroline on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/caroline.livesey/?hl=en

Watch the Patagonman Film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4LQRqU5Gks

--------------------------------------------------------------


Follow Celia at Love The Rain Triathlon Coaching

Website: https://ltrcoaching.co.uk/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lovetheraincoaching/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ltrcoaching

If you find value in what I share and want to support my work, your contributions mean the world. They help me continue creating helpful content, and inspiring others to chase their triathlon dreams.
Buy Me a Coffee https://buymeacoffee.com/lovetheraincoaching

Transcript

[Music] hi I'm Celia boothman founder of LTR coaching and I'd like to welcome you to the inspired triathletes podcast where I'll be bringing you stories from female triathletes and taking on topics that are important to women in the

sport I'm here with Caroline Livesy who is an elite Triathlete she just come back from Patagonia where she won patagon man for the how many times have you won it now is it that was the second time the second time that you've won it so yeah just for people that don't know I think they'd be really interested in a little bit of an overview on pagon man and what it entails um and yeah your experience out there sure right thank you for having me on um so I've been doing Triathlon for 20 years slightly more uh a long time and I've raced all over the world I used to race uh professionally sort of on the Iron Man circuit um and went over to sort of extreme ex Tri triathlons in 2019 um Pascal man I first went to in 2018 with my husband so he raced it that that was the first year that it um started and he's also o been in TR for a very long time um and he said it was the best experience that he's ever had and of course crewing him I saw the course and you know saw the place and I was just desperate to go back and race it and then the first opportunity I had was 2022 and I went down there um and it just had the most amazing time it is for me without a doubt the best experience there is in trackon so it's a it's a longdistance um extreme traon so it's a full it's a 3.8k swim 180k bike and it's actually more than a marathon um it's that race is about 45 kilometers um and I mean extreme Triathlon just means that there are elements of the race which are slightly more extreme than your average um sort of Iron Man type CES so in this case the swim is pretty cold um it's generally between 10 and 14° uh this year it was 12° um you jump off the back of a ferry into a sea field uh the swim actually does vary in distance because it's so rare for them to have perfect conditions to be able to do their sort of full 3.8k course uh this year so the first year I did it was actually only about I don't know a k and a half because weather was so bad yeah uh this year it ended up being 3.2 um and they shorted it slightly because there was a really strong current against us um so we were in the water for about an hour like sort of normal 3.8k type uh time the bike is 2 and a half th meters elevation over the 180k and it's it's tight is road so I was on a TTI bike uh just the most incredible course through three completely different Landscapes uh in Patagonia and it's just wonderful um very hard very windy mostly a tail wind but at the back end of the course it's a very strong headwind which can stop people in their tracks and then the run is on gravel there's a bit of trail at the start and then you're on like a gravel road but it's not Tac none of but Tac um and it has I think 900 meters elevation on the course um you're out in the wilderness um and it's epically beautiful um yeah and I was I was lucky enough to win um in 2022 and a lot of people have asked me why I decided to go back I couldn't really explain it until after I did the race this year and I think the best way to explain it is it was like the first time I did it was like when you go and see a really amazing movie and you can't quite take it all in or like your wedding day or some other like big event in your life and it just is a blur because it's too much for your brain to process everything it's such you know it's like the emotion of it the all your senses is kind of just it's like high definition and and I wanted to go back and just be able to kind of live it and be more present and be um yeah just just experience it all again um yeah and I was just had an incredible day again this year and I won it again so very pleased with a yeah extra bonus of winning the race is amazing yes oh definitely that was that not the reason I went I mean it was know it is just a wonderful experience that race and I would highly recommend it to anybody yeah and that's a nice way to be there as well like wanting to experience it rather than going out for a particular result or like that to be able to be free like that yeah yeah and so and it's also point to point isn't it so you go you don't do a loop or anything like that you actually travel from one place to yeah and and that's a really wonderful way to race as well um and one of the things that I hate about the way that long course racing has developed is the looped courses um and the very kind of sany nature of all the courses um and the wonderful thing about this race in particular is that you also so it's it is point to point you literally finish 200 whatever kilometers away from where you start um but it's also through three or four completely different Landscapes and environments you start at sea level in a kind of it's a rainforest but it's obviously a a cold rainforest it rains 360 days of the year or something down for to chabuka where it starts so it's pretty much always raining but they have the most incredible Flor and for it's just it's crazy it's a really beautiful place and then you go through just like this um plateau of kind of a tundra and then you go up into like a mountain range where there's snow on the hills and it's like a moonscape almost and then on the run you have this this wonderful backdrop of these snowy mountains and you're kind of in a forest and it's it's just stunning yeah yeah it sounds amazing and is it is is it altitude full then with not really no no no um I think the highest she get to is about a thousand F okay yeah there no like problem with getting used to the altitude no no altitude but definitely um gets pretty cold um so T2 is a place called s Castillo and this year um I Heard quite a lot of athletes I was I was fine but I heard quite a lot of athletes saying they were colder in T2 than they had been out T1 and the back end of the bik was probably like 3 or 4 degrees yeah that is cold yeah yeah I saw some photos of you and you're all wrapped up in like jackets and things like that with a big smile on your face enjoying it yes yeah I mean I was in shorts on a t-shirt on the Run yeah but it probably was high as of 15 at most it was maybe 10 degrees at the coldest points on the run for me but then people who were like you know further back who took longer who yeah you know like it obviously got colder as the day progressed into the evening and into the night um they would have been really wrapped up for sure anyone yeah definitely and do you have to have someone supporting you as well for that race like you have yeah so for most of the ex tries um and this one yes for sure you need a support crew um so they are your rolling aid station basically um the organization doesn't provide although I say they don't provide any a stations they actually do on this race they have one on the bike and On The Run there's one at 10K and one at 20K um and then you can meet your support grw at 30k on the run and they could run the rest of the run with you but on the bike they can basically Drive uh the car and Leap Frog use so um you'll see them you know every long how often you want really and they can have anything that you need in the car you can stop and put more clothes on or take stuff off or or have different food that you want or you know whatever it is and um yeah and I I think it's a really lovely aspect of extry because you're not then doing the Race on your own you're doing it as part of a team and although you're the one who's racing the team is so critical and fundamental to your success or your experience that day um that it really does feel like a massive team effort and it's you know it's um very different sharing that it's sort of emot at the Finish yeah definitely I there's been one event that I've done where I needed support and I was like I want to do it this year because I want my mom to support me and it's probably you know it's going to be a bit difficult for her when she gets a bit older and you know following the satinav and all this sort of stuff she was a bit stressed about it but she loved it and it was so nice to finish and have her there as well like when at the end and yeah she was kind of like part of the the whole experience and she really enjoyed it she was like quite happy to have done it in the end although she nous it is amazing yeah I knew it's lovely sharing it with family and actually one of the things that struck me this year in Patagonia was how much the race has grown and I don't mean in terms of the number of athletes competing because they have to keep that capped um so it's around 200 to 300 people who do the race but the number of people they brought with them this year to seem to be a lot more um so instead of just taking like one person as a support group people we're taking their whole families like six people and you know they can't all be in the support car but you know everyone was there to support and and just enjoy the region because the region is spectacular and it's a great place for um you know to have an adventure holiday for for all the normal outdoor activities and I mean Patagonia is just an insane place it's absolutely wonderful and I think people have realized like if I'm going to go down here and do this big event and I expect my husband wife Dad Mom whatever to come and support me then let's go and make a big holiday of it and actually spend a couple of weeks there yeah no I think that's definitely worth definitely worth doing definitely having a go out and if you can involving your family I know it is it just makes it so much better and also it makes you realize and appreciate those people the more as well isn't it at the end of it oh you helped me yeah and I've actually said a lot to my athletes who are doing ex TR um because I think quite often people are hesitant to do an ex driver because like oh well I need a support cre it's a lot to ask someone but it's as long as you've got the right relationship with that person or you find somebody who wants to crew so for example kelam um which I did in 2022 I had a crew that I'd never met before lovely couple who volunteered to Cree for me and they had an interest in the race wanted to perhaps potentially base it in the future but also just wanted to experience being a crew and they loved it and you know they didn't know me at all before the race but they had such a good time and they really enjoyed being part of it and that is overwhelmingly what I hear from Crews is that the experience of crewing someone through an extr and I've crewed a number of people through X Tri is so rewarding and so much fun and yes it's a really really tough day and it's you know you any sleep night before and it's kind of the same as racing you know it's exhausting but it's just a wonderful experience yeah I think and that could be a way for people to kind of get into you know if they weren't sure do I want to do it or not they could crew and actually yeah and I'm getting just as much because that that's what I was worried about I was like I don't want to PO you know put give all this work to someone that's a bit worried about it but yeah it was like really she did really enjoy it and got a lot from it as well like you know for her confidence it was really good because she was following the help yeah she's like I've got a CL the SAT now I don't like it I mean and I think a lot of the races of this nature have a community that's growing up around them certainly pasal man certainly K man um and lots of others I can think of um that have a kind of inbuilt support system where you can you know there's a forum or there's a just a community of people around you know the social media who are ready to help who will answer questions who will suggest people to be your support grw who will put you in touch with the network um you know I have never heard of somebody even if they you know at the last minute lose a crew because they I don't know break a leg or something I've never heard of someone not being able to find crew for a race um and you know in Patagonia I had my husband Mark was with me but I had a local girl Ilie who supported me in 2022 and this year in 2024 um and she was just part of a community of people down in Patagonia who live locally who want to be involved in the race so cool yeah love it awesome okay so I'm gonna just change focus a little bit um so Caroline you're also a coach and um you recently wrote a little article about Ai and it's something that I'm really interested in and would love to explore a little bit with you and kind of explain to people how it works a little bit and and give people a little bit more understanding about it so um I'm going to ask you few questions about AI you you said to me that you're not an expert but you know you know enough and probably more than a lot of people do who might be using these coaching platforms or thinking of using these coaching platforms and you've obviously thought about it a lot um and looked into it so it's great to have you on and talk about that so the first question is really what is an AI coaching platform how does it function in the context of triathlon coaching let's take for an example because this is a triathlon podcast sure um so what what is it and well I mean okay so yeah I'm not an expert and I'm and I'm not a programmer or I don't come from a background of Technology like that um but I am a I am an expert in coaching I am a long you know I've been coaching Triathlon for a long time and life coaching and inuring sports coaching so that's the perspective I come at it from and I have looked into AI coaching because I also so I'm heavily involved in a platform called train exhale um so exhale without any e um which is similar to kind of training Peaks you know it's a training platform where people can record their um their training they can be coached on there that sort of thing and as you rightly point out AI has started to well I don't even know if we can say started anymore it's having a massive influence on this this part of the triathon world um coaching and I'm definitely not here to rubbish it in any way because I think I think it plays a role and I think it's got an important role but I also want people to understand a bit better what coaching really is and how they can utilize AI but how it can't ever stand it for human interaction yeah um you know and and we are talking specifically about Triathlon and and let's be clear there are other sports where AI plays a massive role and has for years you know team sports um statistics based sports like tennis um golf you know AI can can spot patterns and and and process data in ways that humans never can you know and computers have been doing that also for years it's it's a very very powerful tool in in sporting patterns and processing data um but we're not in those Sports we're we're in Triathlon it's very complex it involves three four five different disciplines um you know if you include nutrition and strengthen conditioning and then all the technical work goes into each of our three schools and combining training plan for those three Sports Plus the other things over somebody's life commitments is very very complicated and individual so um okay so you asked how it works um so AI will take a source code so it will be programmed to pull information from somewhere um and all the different AI PLS that are out there there are lots we'll do this in different ways and it kind of depends on how they being created what the goal is of that platform um and I guess in a way how much not necessarily money but how much time the creators have put into that so they it will pull in a source code and it might be like let's just as an example say it pulls in a source code of all of the 220 Triathlon magazine training programs that it's pushed out in the last 20 years so for example if you wanted a free training plan you could go to 220 Magazine online uh you can say I need a 70.3 training plan I'm a beginner uh I have you know completed one of these before um give it some other inputs and and you would get a training from from that it would probably be a PD outfit withl so so you know a very simple AI might just pull might you give it five inputs gender age um you know beginner novice you know what your level is what your goal is maybe a time something like that and it will just pull you a plan out um now once you have that plan so similarly for you downloading a training plan from any of the free sources that you can download training that's WR how it then reacts and responds and updates and adapts to your training is the kind of uh difference between platforms so sum are based on a particular coaches um uh so I don't want to mention any any no I know so some of the well-known Triathlon AI platforms you know have specific coaches behind them who are whose philosophies yeah are influencing how that trading plan adapts others are just doing it and you know some of these platforms are just pulling from all the source code on the internet and there is no filtration it's just here's the latest uh development yeah which doesn't always translate if it's you know it's working looking for a pro triathlete or something like that but not necessarily yeah um and I also think that there's as somebody who's been heavily involved in sports coaching for a long time I've seen Trends come and go as I'm sure many of your listeners have and you have as well um there's always something new there's always a new fad in terms of the way to specifically train for something or or uh what strength work to do how often to do it I don't know whatever it is long runs not long runs intensity no intensity you know yeah um and AI will just pull that information based on the number of hits that's had and how popular that information is and um you know how um uh how much information there is on one particular topic uh which doesn't which isn't always the best thing right for somebody so potentially it's open to following the trend rather than what I think definitely in is and and I and I really do wonder if um it can ever be female specific because of that and I know your listener base is obviously feale specific and I think one of the things that we've learned recently in the last five years really like really recently is how um little information detailed information there is about female physiology yeah um and that's only just starting to come through now we're seeing such great developments but it takes a human to know who to listen to yeah and to then go back to the source document the actual research that was done the people who were in that pool of subjects from which that data is then pulled to say oh well hang on a minute they were men in their 20s this new theory about fasted training doesn't apply to women but that takes you know it takes looking and understanding whereas so like AI will pull data and it's very dependent on the data that gets put in this is what i' I've kind of been saying is like what happens if the data is a problem like say for example you're you're riding um and you're using a par meter you know quite often you get bad data on a par meter you'll get like a random Spike and it's like how does it discern that bad data and pull it out and then adapt to it because you know I've asked that question to someone and they couldn't give me an answer about it it was like don't know yeah so I think the thing to remember with AI is it does learn um over a period of time so it will learn about you and if you if your average power for an endurance level two ride for three hours is 150 wats and one day you go out and do 250 it's going to see that as an anomaly yeah and it's to give it less weight yeah but does know complely but you know that's that's one example where it's quite obvious um but does it know when you're riding your road bike in your time trial break yeah and they've got different par meters and actually they always read 10 wats different they always read 15 watts different um and you know what I will say is I think it will I think a there are things that AI will be able to do in the future that it can't do right now um and it is going to get better and it is going to be able to do those things and actually data analysis is something it can do better than probably any human can ever do yeah um so I don't think but having said that I agree with you because I think less are on the bik but certainly in things like swimming um I mean personally I'm really really hate people wearing watches in the pool anyway but you know for example I'm always getting athletes giving me or asking me about swim data be in the pool or open water and not realizing how completely wrong it is and it's really not worth the paper it's written on and so you know that data and swimming is one of the sports we do there is literally no data for that you have to manually input that data because it data from your watch can never be accurate enough um and if you don't believe me watch um a YouTube video we put together on GPS data in Open Water um and we and we Mark and I swam with three different GPS devices around a set loop Rand boys and then looked at the data afterwards just to show people you know we were swimming together we had different watches on and then he had both of the watches on his wrist and swam you know and then behind us head and just showing you the different accuracies and and how inaccurate yeah GPS can be you only need to wear your GPS on your turbo trainer and it tells you you've done 500 meters to know that squiggly line to know that it's not accurate yet yeah definitely yeah yeah I mean that's I mean yeah what you're saying like when it gets sort of correct this is the thing it's a machine at the end of the day it's a machine isn't it and if it gets machine like data you know something from a power meter something from like you know even like Pace on when you're running is completely it varies so much depending on terrain conditions what you're running on that kind of thing you know power is a useful one because it can go in and it that is what it is but the other sports are a bit more like okay well we have to look at what else was happening or you know where you were doing that interal and did you do it in the same place as last time were you on a track were you there you know there's so much noise I think they all it don't they on on the um in the data that it's quite it must be quite hard to figure that out I think though that the point for me is not so much that as as the other noise that goes with training so how how much did you sleep the night before was it good quality yes we have data on that okay um but that's not accurate either

people believe that as well and it really isn't uh that accurate either um you know how stressful was your day did you feel well before your session um were you focused were you motivated yeah um did you have good music on you know the small things sometimes big things that make the difference between you having a good session and a bad session or you know even just hormones you know yeah some days we feel like on top of the world and you can go out and run a certain pace and the next day the same Pace will feel really hard um and that doesn't mean that you're suddenly a worst athlete or worst Runner that just is is just normal fluctuations in in training patterns but and a coach can pick that up you know if one of my athlet has a has a a session and they say in their feedback I felt really off today I was really tired and the next day I felt really off day I felt really tired okay I know they need a rest day but you know that's very subjective it's it's knowing your athletes it's um knowing what motivates them and that emotional intelligence and that connection with your athlete that's the thing that AI can never replace no matter how good it gets at data analysis and how good no matter how good our datting I'm sure that will also get better you can never have a machine that has that level of connection and emotional intelligence no and that affects you know how would that affect an athlete for example if you know they're not getting that from you know it's fine I've got my training program and I'm following it and and I'm going along training for this event how does it an affect affect an athlete if they don't have that level of emotional intelligence from their coach because you know the the AI is becoming their coach effec so I think just to say there is definitely a place for an Adaptive training program written by AI for somebody who just needs a training program yeah and who needs it to be able to adapt if they miss a session or if they run 12K instead of 10 um and and that's absolutely what a can do for somebody and if you if you just don't have the a knowledge to create your own training Pro program and it's easier for you to gr it to just be in a plan so you don't to think about it and you've not done consistent training before then I think that is a valuable use of this sort of training platform and there are people out there who just by training consistently will get better because maybe they've come from a background where they've not trained consistently before or not trained at all or are just getting into triathon maybe from a background of swimming and don't know how to digress the other sports um I think that is that is brilliant because it gives them a way to uh to make those improvements to get to the level where perhaps they do need a coach then to make the next step yeah but for people

who who want to progress to their potential in the sport at some point to reach that full potential you need another human being's input and that human being needs to be a coach who is experienced who understands the three Sports and triathon as a sport itself and who has a connection with you that you have a strong relationship with so that's very personal some coaches are brilliant but they just don't work for yeah some some people because they don't connect with them or their methods um just don't work for the physiology of that athlete um and as long as you know as long as you can find that person and you have that emotional connection that person can tap into the motivation what motivates you and and learn how to get the best from you yeah because with AI it's very much like you got you know you get a little Badges and things like that don't so which is some form of motivation but it's not the same as having that deep connection with someone that really like is you know my husband and I talk about it it's like having someone in your corner like you know they're there they're on your side they're looking out for you and they're you know they're there even if you know when you're doing your sessions you're kind of thinking about your coach a little bit and they're they're on your mind um when you're out training so we can't get that from AI or a machine it's got to be from a human being yeah and I and I think also that that way of being motivated by Machine e i earning badges or yeah getting Rewards or uh you know filling a bucket full of stars or whatever it is um maybe that does work for some people that sort of gamification of your progress um I know for me it very much doesn't work because I've tried it with learning Spanish lingo and I hated it abely d I lasted about a week and I was I just can't be doing with this it's really annoying um

so I think you know it's understanding yourself enough well enough to know whether that's going to work for you or not yeah but you're right just sorry go on no you're was GNA say you're AB right like when I get when I set sessions with my athletes it's not just you know I don't know five times five minutes on the bike with three minutes off go I will give them a narrative which I want in their heads when they're doing that session know you're doing the session because of XY and said I want you to think about this sort of power I want you to think about this sort of pedal stroke here's what we're aiming for here's how it's going to progress and then like you say when they're on that session they're thinking about what I've said and they're thinking about that and it motivates them it makes them do a specific thing in a session um think in a particular way and yeah that's that can't really be replicated no and then it means so then you've got more intention going into the session it's a word that I was thinking about today because I was talking about um like because I climb a lot now instead of triathlon and I got myself a coach because I was like I want to progress faster and he's giving me these drill and it's really weird because I'm in triathle I'm used to like right we write a plan and that's what you do and I'm like when's he going to give me my plan and he's not given me a plan it's like oh just incorporate this into your warmup and and think about this and I'm like okay um and how many do I do you know I'm kind of like wanting the metrics but it's not the same he's wanting me to practice skills and become more like aware of my body movement and going into the session with an intent and it works the same way with Triathlon doesn't it of having that intent going into session if you've just got okay we're doing 5 by three minutes at threshold or whatever and you don't really know why I I'm sure you don't get as much benefit from the session because you just tick you're ticking the Box you're not really thinking okay this is improving because our minds are super powerful and if you go into that session and you think this is going to affect this part of my fitness I think that will have an impact on you as well not just phys I think oh you bring up a really good point there and that is the mental side of the sport and yes you know I used to be a rock climber too and it is obviously a huge theme in rock climbing but it's also you know for example I've had a lot of athletes who've struggled with Open Water Swimming um confidence um fear um even anticipation of cold water um those kind of things which are it it takes somebody an experienced coach who's either experienced that in the themselves or who has coach other people through it to be able to take somebody out of that state of fear and help them to get to the point where that thing is normalized for them and that's a very human interaction because you're dealing there with with a a a block a a false barrier or false belief that somebody has about themselves which you which you need to unpick and understand before you can move them past That Into You Know progressing to where they want to be yeah yeah like identifying what their FR what the fear is and then getting to the bottom of it which yeah you can't you can't get that from a online no I don't think you can and I think everybody has their very unique strengths and weaknesses be they physical and mental um you know one example I gave in my article was well you know if you come from a swimming background the sessions that you're going to need to do to progress from swimming 145s per 100 because you're unfit and you've not been in a pool for a year or five years or 10 years to swimming 120s which you did as a kid and actually all it takes is getting you fitter is completely different from trying to get a non-swimmer from that stage to 12s and the steps in that process are World about um yeah and I'm sure there I'm sure there are ways that that could be built into AI in a certain you know at a certain level but I I also think that there's so many you know there's such a sliding scale between the two things and what comes into that as well is somebody's approach to it how good are they at learning do they learn by seeing trying uh watching videos reading um you know actually having somebody move their body for them in a particular way on the pool side I people learn is is very different yeah it is yeah definitely yeah so it's

yeah it's got its place it's not it's not always it can't provide everything I just want to sort of circle back to female specific training because as you said we there's so much that is nuanced in that and there and it is very very new as well you know it's only been in people's minds for the last few years really before we just ignored it and didn't really think about it um you know how how do you incorporate that into your coaching and why why can't AI Do

It

um well why can't AI do is a difficult question I don't think I don't know this for sure and this is just opinion ofc I don't think there's enough data yeah um at the moment for a machine to learn from to then build a picture that's accurate enough to then serve the million different um different ways that a that a female can react to different phases of their cycle yeah um and because I think it is so individual now obviously there are parts of female cfic training which are which you can generalize you know we know now that females respond differently to fet train respond differently to different levels of protein in their diets respond differently to strength and conditioning um need to have different uh ways of doing strength conditioning training but there are definitely some things which are not generalized um and don't apply and you know I have um current I currently coach and have in the past coached athletes from the ages of 20 to nearly 60 yeah um and the range of different requirements in that age range is huge but even within a very narrow age range so athletes who have got who are the same age um the way that they respond to their hormones doing different things at different times of their Cycles can be so different and one athlete can feel exhausted for three days before the first day of their cycle um and doesn't want to do anything it feels an emotional and you know some have to have time off work even you know are in a lot of pain those kind of of things and and are completely unaffected by it in the first day of their period like oh I got the period no idea you know yeah so uh and and you know the the way I treat those athletes differently it is huge because I've had to learn through coaching them for a period of Time how their cycle is how they are within that um and how it can vary from month to month you know quite a lot of athletes have have um sort of it changes so you know you over cycle different um alternate months and so they'll have different reactions on one side from the other and so one month will be fine the next month will be awful and yeah you know it takes time even even an individual won't know that about themselves no because they've never paid attention to it so how how can a machine possibly that yeah I think there's there's a lot of complexity within it isn't there and um it's it's down to the coach and the individual as well taking some kind of responsibility for it and going okay what can I do and also there's a lot to do with you know as you mentioned earlier to do with sleep nutrition that affects how people respond during their cycle yeah and I mean we so we have um on train exale we have a system of RP yeah so that's um that's how we get athletes to score each session is based on a scale of 1 to 10 how hard was it and over time you build up a um series of data points related to the number of time they've spent in a particular RP and it's kind of like a it comes out as a ratio between your chronic fatigue and your acute fatigue so how acutely fatigued are you from sessions that day for example or that hour compared to like the fatigue that you've built up over the period of a week or a month or whatever um and you get little red flags as a coach that pop up and I'm sure it's you know there are some other platforms that also work on RP um when that red flag pops up I don't automatically think well this athlete's fatigued I've got to P back their training I well what does that mean yeah what is it flagging let's have a look at the data um you know has something else happened in this person's life that has caused them to grade things more difficult than they actually are this week and you know it you know so so often that is the case something awful has happened in their lives um or they've been ill or something else and it causes that balance the tip and as a coach you've got to be able to to spot those things and and react to that individual um yeah like someone checking in going how are you doing you know you can't you're not going to get that from an AI software it's not to go how are you well maybe it will but it'll be a robot doing it's not quite the same is it no and I think one of the other things that really worries me about this trend in AI is a lot of when I've seen coaches pushing it or platforms pushing it it's talking about expansion of that coach's ability to coach So it's talking about it frees you up that's you up to coach more people expand your business yeah just do more of the coach the soft soft skills which you know coaching as we're talking about it may be classified as and I don't like that term you like what does that mean and yeah but um yeah it's it's pushing that kind of like you are free to do the coaching bit and we'll take care of the like data and the numbers and what have you the planning bit Yeah Yeah and I don't what I there's two things I don't like about that one is um that you're as a coach then relinquishing some control anyway over your knowledge built up over a long period of time about what works and doesn't work for people and you're giving that control to an algorithm which you don't know what the source code is for yeah which may constantly be changing and I absolutely agree it can help at times um but how often do you have an athlete where their progression is linear and they go from you know couch to 5K to 10K to half marath to Mar in a linear fashion with no injuries no illnesses and they PR just exactly as they me um but I think the other thing I don't like about it is that it's almost pushing coaches to coach more people you know use this so that you're free to coach more because you've got more time so you can have 20 athletes instead of 10 or 100 athletes instead of 50 yeah and and actually I don't think that as a narrative is valuable in coaching in the coaching world because your brain only has the capacity to remember the nuances for a certain number of people and for me that's about 10 yeah or less yeah um and no amount of somebody else setting their programs for them or a machine setting their programs for is going to help that that is just my capacity to care and to understand that many people yeah definitely I agree with you there it's like and and I want to have that relationship with those people on that level rather than being like well I know a bit about that person and and a little bit about that person and um yeah my husband's being coach at the moment and I'm like I don't want to say anything but it's like I don't think they know what's going on it's yeah yeah that's so often the case and I think that's the other thing we need to recognize is that there's a very and it's a whole other topic but there is a very wide range of um ways that people coach and levels of support that you get from a coach yeah and for sure there are coaches out there who are just setting programs and I'm not saying that's wrong that might be just what they're selling I will set you a program yeah fine if you want to pay someone to set you a program because it takes it off your plate and it's um and you're happy with that that's fine but that's very different to for example what I provide which is a full life coaching um Sports coaching service where you have unlimited interactions with me whenever you want I talk to you every day on exale through the platform I give you feedback on every single session um and it's very very individual and I sit down for a good amount of time every week and I think about you and I think about your plan and I think about what's coming next and what progression is and how you are and what motivates you and all those things it's very different and I think um you know just uh people just have to understand that the same as AI there's a whole wide range of coaching available out that yeah and you've just got to think more about what you need specifically if if you're someone who's thinking about taking a coach or taking on an AI you know joining an AI platform just thinking very specifically about what it is you want yeah what your goal is from this and then thinking about whether or not yeah what level of support you need yeah and that can change as well as you kind of progress through the sport as you mentioned earlier you know AI might be useful as you're getting in although some I sort of think as well that on some level it isn't as great if you don't understand the you know like if you don't understand it you're kind of like you can get misled in some ways by AI it's telling you oh you've done you know I put something up on Instagram the other day it was straa telling me that I'd spent all this time in this Zone and what have you and it was like yeah it's going off my wrist based heart rate and it's not accurate but it's telling me all this information that's yeah you've done a great session get really fit and I'm like no it's not going to happen like that it's a it was a recovery run but you know if people don't understand those things or haven't got that information then they're going to interpret that wrongly as well but so you need a little bit of understanding to to use it as well really I think but there's also a really good point there um that occurs to me which is can you learn from being coached by AI because one of my uh you know fundamentals with my coaching is that I want my athletes to learn I want them to understand why they're having that session what the purpose of the session is why I've structure the plan in the way they have you know like why they're doing a particular swim drill what and all of those things you know why we prepare for a race in a particular way what the taper looks like why it looks like that why we change it why it works for them why it doesn't work for them those things are all things that they're learning from me all the time and it's not just those things about training it's what kit to wear what races to go to what climates might suit them um you know how to prepare if they're going to altitude like a million different things um can you as a novice or beginner athlete learn from an AI platform as you're progressing does it tell you why you're doing the sessions and if not then you're missing out on a massive amount of information yeah definitely yeah definitely and some people they just want get through you know they just want to do the race once or something and it's like a tick list and they just want that plan for that and I think maybe for those people yeah you're right it's like but if you do want to get more from the sport and you know it's not just about doing triathle and as I mentioned earlier before we started the call then you know I think we're learning a lot more through the sport about ourselves and and that you yeah like you're saying you do some life coaching it is really like a life sort of Lifestyle sport where you for sure you learn so much so and and you share that Journey with your coach you know that's the other thing that I think um is massive certainly for some of the athletes like coaches that they are sharing that with me yeah I can celebrate their wins with them I can celebrate the progressions I can motivate them when things are not going particularly well or they've got an injury or you know those sorts of things

um and yeah and I and I do I like I like I said at the beginning I do think there is a place um as you said for people who um just just need that taken away they that responsibility taken away just just somebody write me a program that's gonna at least progress me yeah um that's absolutely fine but um yeah it's understanding the it can't give you everything can it and that's that's the that's the point I think we're trying to make it's like it's it's useful but it's not going to give you everything that you need and and for that you definitely need someone interpreting the data and also you know finding out about you as a person because ultimately you need to know that to be able to race it your full potential cuz you know there's lots of challenges and we're all different really and I I was also I was listening to one of your podcasts earlier about you were talking about IR man Wales um and I was thinking about how there are so many things that are specific to that race I did that race in the first year I think it was 2011 um and you know for example if you were coaching somebody for Iron Man Wales um and it's a race you've done or a race you've um spectated at or whatever you're going to be able to give that person so many inputs that are really helpful for that race um which which is one of the things that is um really important about having a having the right coach and having a good coach is that they can um share their share that knowledge with you yeah yeah because you've been through that Journey your s you know you know what because I find that when I've got someone that's doing a race that I don't know that much about I try and find out about it but there's always like we don't know until you've raced it and I get the feedback and and then find out about the course and well there's a really massive Hill and you know we could see that on the on the information but I don't know how it's going to feel for someone whereas I know how things might feel potentially it's obviously not going to be the same experience but you can get a bit of an idea can't you yeah yeah for sure awesome so I thank you so much for your time and and answering my questions it's been quite sort of just discussion really yeah rather than uh interview but yeah it's nice to to talk about that and I think that' be some really useful information for people where can people find you find out more about you and I will put all these links in the show notes and and underneath but yeah if you just want to let people know that' be great well um the best place to follow me is on Instagram caroline. liy um but my husband is a actually a film maker documentary maker yeah and so we've got quite a number of films about our adventures and races and things on YouTube and he's the brick session yeah so it's YouTube channel is just at the brick session um and if people are interested in in watching something about pagon man then our film is called pagon man trion's wild giant is on YouTube that out now is that from the that's one from two years ago okay um so that's out now um the one from this year will be out shortly um but we've got films on there about um Ultra cycling in Colombia and I've got one noran a day of extremes when I did the Northman um so that's on there as well but I think um the the ptical man one is really nice because it does bring to life that part of the world um and it and if it's something you're thinking about doing an extreme TR Ron I'd recommend watching it because it definitely kind of breaks down the race a bit and makes it feel like it's more manageable for people it's it's something that is achievable for everybody basically um so yeah have a watch of the films to watch that one aren't I yeah s l yeah know it looks amazing really get it back when your bucket list it's good climbing down there too I've actually Rock climbed down there many minutes ago yeah well that's that was another reason it sort of appealed to me Patagonia because I've seen lots of films about it climbing but yeah then I have to yeah train for

triy it's so hard because I'm like uh the age I'm at now I'm like I want to stay strong in my climbing but you know and maybe one day I'll get back into Tri on but yeah I don't know I see what happens because one thing at a time you've got to go with where you feel like you you want to but it was on my bucket list and I think it maybe well watch the film see what you think I will watch the film definitely awesome well thank you so much for your time and uh thank you for having me yeah no worries and if anyone's got um any specific questions they can fire at me on social media I may not be able to answer but I'll do my best okay brilliant thanks for that thanks for listening today have a great day take care bye for now

[Music]