"Sleep Smarter: Dr. Meeta Singh on Optimising Rest for Health, Performance, and Well-Being"

In this insightful episode, Dr. Meeta Singh, a board-certified physician and psychiatrist, shares her journey into sleep medicine and explores why quality sleep is essential for health, emotional well-being, and peak performance. 

From circadian rhythms and chronotypes to the bidirectional relationship between stress and sleep, Dr. Singh provides actionable tips for improving your sleep hygiene. 

She breaks down relaxation techniques, the benefits and limitations of napping, the value of sleep consistency, and how wearables can (and can't) help you track rest. 

Listen in to this conversation for practical, science-backed strategies to help you support healthy sleep patterns.

Follow Dr Singh on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/athletesleepmd/?hl=en

Sign up for the sleep newsletter here https://subscribe.meetasinghmd.com/

Check out her website https://www.meetasinghmd.com/

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Transcript

[Music] hi I'm Celia Boothman founder of LTR Coaching and I'd like to welcome you to the Inspired Triathletes podcast where I'll be bringing you stories from female triathletes and taking on topics that are important to women in the sport

hello and welcome to today's episode i'm here with Dr to me Singh who I've been trying to get a sleep expert on for a while actually so thank you so much for joining me today and uh meter you're a boardcertified physician and psychiatrist working in the applied science of sleep and you use medical psychiatric and behavioral diagnosis to help people with their sleep patterns and problems I'm guessing okay right okay and why did Do you want to become an expert on sleep like what drew you down that path to to get into sleep so um I have a so I'm I'm a psychiatrist by training i did my training at Mayo Clinic in the last year of my training you have something called electives you pick and choose what you want to you know try and do and one of the electives was sleep and I thought well that's going to be kind of maybe more relaxed there might not be anything much to do but was actually really fascinating i mean sleep is so interesting people are you know it's so mysterious it's also still a younger field people you know we discover more and more about science of sleep and um so decided to do that so did a fellowship in sleep medicine at the Henry Ford uh sleep disorder center it's in Detroit Michigan and then a few years ago um it's been about I I shouldn't say like 10 about 10 to 12 years ago started working did some work with the local NFL team which is the national football league it's the professional uh football uh team here and so just kind of happened to start working with professional athletes and you know sleep is really essential for rest and recovery and for performance and so now my practice is all about helping you know professional athletes or you know even amateur athletes in optimizing performance and of course overall health because you want to be healthy that's why you you know you achieve good performance well that's a long winded answer but that's yeah that's no no that's that's great yeah I mean that's it's it's what you're interested in and you can see the impact that it has on people and it is huge isn't it the impact that our sleep has on not just performance but every every aspect of our life i know I feel terrible if I if I don't sleep well and it's one of the things when we're stressed it's one of the first things to kind of start breaking down I suppose yes yes is that something that you see quite often yes yeah so so you know there are a couple of things you mentioned so I want to catch each of those threads so I don't want to forget them but I we can start with just stress so think of sleep as a nightly reset button what it does is it it it prepares you to face and cope with the stresses of the next day and if you're underslept if you haven't slept well well you don't cope as well and when you don't cope as well that makes people more anxious it makes people more like it stresses people out more and then sleep further deteriorates and so it's like a vicious cycle and often the best way to intervene is to kind of help with your you know with sleep you know so so this this birectional relationship that sleep has with your like emotional and me uh emotional well-being is really well established we know that if you sleep poorly people become more anxious and stressed out and of course if you're stressed out and anxious you sleep poorly and so you want to you know it's it's it's a really interesting um uh relationship so you want to focus and and optimize sleep because it kind of helps you show up better the next day so there's that and we can you know we can talk in in further along uh you know we can we can talk about what you can do to do do that but sleep happens deep in your brain and even though it happens deep in the brain of course every function of your brain needs sleep so you know memory consolidation creativity which is like coming up with you know thinking putting together new information with previously stored information and coming up with these novel solutions which is those aha moments happens while you're sleeping which is why we when somebody has a problem we say you sleep on a problem right we don't we don't say eat on the problem because sleep has that function sleep is also really important for emot emotional intelligence so emotional intelligence is the ability to you know find out tell exactly how you feel in the moment and then manage those emotions and that's really important for athletes right it's emo like really good athletes know how they feel like is it am I feeling anxious or am I just feeling on the edge and ready to go and the ability to manage them so that you can use those emotions in real time or you can use it to you know to perform better or if you're in a team the ability to tell what your team members are doing you know how they're feeling so that you can be a good leader or you can be a good team um you you can be you can um be more cohesive as a team member so there's that and then of course I mean not you know even though sleep happens in the brain every part of your body so your heart your lungs recovery happens muscle recovery happens while you're sleeping so growth happens you know when you work out in the gym you when you're in the gym you break down muscle the growth happens while you're sleeping and that's where muscle recovery happens well anyway that was a long-winded answer so so if you have any follow-up questions that you know Yeah no that's it's the mind body it's it affects both aspects doesn't it it's the mind and body connection that we need it's almost like glue isn't it that brings that together I guess with sleep um and it reminds me what you're saying as well about uh mindfulness as well and being able to be present and and aware so sleeping I guess is kind of linked into meditation in some way as well that it when we're in that state of that brings mindfulness in as well would you say this is a bit of a random question that I've just thought of but would you say that meditation can help if you weren't sleeping very well would meditation be another way of restoring and and activating those things yes so good you know uh medit Yes and there's there's actually been a lot of research on that and which meditation especially when you when you do deep meditation um meditation is also restorative but I want to want to tell you something something you said reminded me because we we live really busy lives and people often what they do is that they they live these busy lives and then then at night they're like okay they're like still sending emails etc and then they turn down their computer and they say well okay now I'm I should fall asleep and they command themselves to fall asleep which is the wrong way to try and get to sleep yeah and so one thing and that this is something perhaps for all your viewers to have this really like intentional winding down schedule at the end of the day that kind of helps you sort of make sense of what happened during the day and like kind of put a bow on it right is important and you know I always tell people that when and when when a plane is landing it doesn't just flop to the ground what it does is it kind of loses altitude and makes all these maneuvers and slows down before it comes to a stop and that's exactly what we have to do while we're preparing ourselves to fall asleep and so and this could be 30 minutes or 45 minutes and I'll tell people that if you think your bedtime is about 11:00 p.m or you want to go to sleep at about 10:30 11 or midnight you know set an alarm about 35 minutes before that and the alarm is to tell you that it's now time to start winding down and then you know things you can do in your winding down is things like you know sometimes like journaling or a hot bath or a shower or like meditation or stretching exercises reading a book you know or listening to a podcast or something relaxing that puts some distance between the busy day then kind of allows you to fall asleep at night yeah and that's very personal I guess to each individual as to what they do because some some of those things may wind people up again if they're reading an exciting book or whatever then yeah that's actually that's a really that's a very good comment it that that that winding down is sort of trial it's trial and error you have to figure out what works for you so for somebody you know doing a little bit of yoga or doing some stretching exercises might work and for other people it might invigorate them well then that that's the wrong thing for you right and for some people like you know you you've picked the correct book you know a page turner is probably not what you want to do but then um and and and that's it's really interesting because we can we can spend some time talking about electronics because people sometimes you know are on their phones and you know if you're on social media and you're like doom scrolling well it's a time suck and you know you walk away from it and like you've spent too much time on it but for many young people um they're also using it as a way to relax and so they're putting in like some boundaries of how you use it it can be it can be useful you know a way to kind of help them relax too yeah i think sometimes you see things that are very I I suppose the way we live now we see everything's quick and online and so people giving quick tips and it's like put your phone on do this do that and so you see these things and you think "Oh that's the way to do it." But there's many many ways and like like you say that you know even using your phone you know I have a a strict rule about my phone before I go trying to wind down because I'm going to try to minimize it anyway really because it's not great i I know the effect that it has on me but for other people it might be you know they listen to music or a podcast or whatever and and it helps them to sleep so you know we can't apply everything to everyone can we well so so you know a good scientific study usually has a large number the n the subject n should be large right and it gives us broad principles and broad principles are really good because they they inform science but but individuals are individuals so I'm different from you and you're different from you know we're all and we have to if you're doing something optimally that optimally should be applying to you it should be applicable to you and like like for example one of the things you know there's there's often there's often this thing that you know you have to the early bird catches the w the worm or like these broad strokes in which people say well you know the best time to exercise is this time or the best time you go do something is a particular time based on the clock but it really depends on your own individ you on individuals so all of us have a timekeeping system in us and it's called the circadian clock and I know that your audience you know has probably heard of it so we have a clock in our brain and it keeps time over a 24-hour period and one of the things that decides is something called a chronotype which is somebody's genetic preference to either be a night owl or a morning person yeah so I'm a morning person but my partner Todd he's a night owl which means that for me you know if I go to bed at 10:00 10:30 and wake up between 6:00 and 6:30 like that's optimal for me but he is a night owl and prefers to go to bed at midnight or between midnight and 1:00 and would prefer to wake up at between 7:30 and 8:00 in the morning so 9:30 and 10:00 at night when I start winding down and go to sleep he's still full of energy if he tried to go to bed at that time he'd just not fall asleep he'd give himself a sleep problem m and so so it is important to know oneself a little bit and recognize what works for you versus what works for somebody else yeah definitely and I think that's especially true with with athletes when they're trying to train and fit their training in as well there's that thing about being a night owl or an early morning and some people will want to train in the morning and some people want want to train at night yes you know if I train at night I just get really hyped up and I can't fall asleep whereas some people it helps them to fall asleep when they train later so that does have an impact on all of us and how would you suggest sort of managing that when if people are having to try and squeeze workouts in during either the morning or the evening sometimes people are trying to do both they're trying to do morning and evening how would that impact your sleep and what would what could you do to help with any sleep issues in that situation right i I mean I I think um I think that especially with triathletes or uh endurance athletes I think that the the main factor becomes time right like you have to fit everything in and then you want to you still want to be able to get you know the right amount of sleep at night uh I think that that you do want to begin with recognition of one's own biology in which you know whether you're a night owl or a morning person and uh

what I found is that that if somebody is like consistently getting maybe four or five hours or so they're shortch changed in their sleep you know the information that they need seven or eight hours of sleep is kind of useless because they're never going to do that so it's it's almost better to to increase your time in bed by maybe 15 to 20 minute increments only okay and doing that sometimes kind of will help you so if you if if you know if you can go to maybe bed 15 20 minutes earlier or sleep in another extra 15 20 minutes or if you're shortch changed of sleep if you can get a 20 25 minute nap during the day all of that adds up to the amount of sleep that you require and then um yeah it's it's an age-old question right like you know what do you do because you have so many things that you have to kind of fit in um maybe maybe uh uh you know shorter workouts getting more workouts done on the days that you're off that would help but it's it is it's difficult it's really it's a juggling act yeah it's a it's a juggling act and then and to be honest there's not there's not a you know there's not a clearcut answer and there's not there's not a quick answer no i like your idea though of of the 15 minutes because that's manageable isn't it 15 to 20 minutes it's like oh I could do that because if like you say if you if you think I've got to have seven or eight hours sleep and I've got to fit all this other stuff in I mean sometimes Yeah yeah it's unachievable and then you just end up in this spiral of I'm not getting enough sleep oh it's terrible and we go in this kind of negative place which isn't really helpful for us in the long term and it's you know as a triathlon coach obviously I would encourage people to just do the m you know not be burning the candle at both ends because sleep is is super important and if you're not sleeping you're not going to recover from your workouts and you're not going to get fitter and faster and perform anyway so there's a bit of a balancing act with it all isn't there and the other thing that you have to tell you know you can tell your um the people that you're coaching is that you know if you if you for some reason had to pull an all nighter and didn't sleep at all you'd be exhausted the next day you would totally know it but when people short change their sleep and they do it by one or two hours and they do it regularly then their ability to tell that they're impaired is also impaired so it's like being if you were drinking alcohol you should be the last person who decides whether you're fit to drive right cuz you you can't make that that decision the same happens when you chronically get less sleep so it's a little bit and so you're not it's you just are not a good judge and and if you're looking to improve your um if you're looking to improve your performance you you have to do it the opposite you you you almost have to commit to increasing your sleep time by a few minutes etc and then you will automatically see those benefits so that commitment actually comes before um you you don't need to buy in the buyin will come once once you notice the improvement it's like it's the same reason we that's exactly how we approach diet and exercise right we we don't need to we don't need to be convinced that this is going to work we show up we do the work and then we see that improvement and that that brings the buy in it's the same with with sleep too yeah definitely yeah but as you say I if people are in that sleepdeprived state they're not necessarily Yes seeing that they are in that state so that's difficult for people have you worked with people that have been in that sleepdeprived state and not realized and yes yeah i I you know I one of my favorite like pieces of research which has been replicated with in a lot of places is they look at impairments in your performance and so the performance is measured in on computer tests and they look at they look at reaction time and they look at uh you know um lapses like how you know and and they and they look they compare the the impairment you get from drinking alcohol to getting less sleep and you know typically if if people are getting six hours of sleep that's equivalent to doing those performance tests after drinking two to three beers right and and something you know and showing people that data can be really it can be really compelling because you know you think you're fine but you really are not and you know this is it's when it comes to the impairment from drinking alcohol there's so much we've done such a good job in educating people that even if even if they were drinking alcohol and doing something they would like they people are aware are aware of it like they're like well drive impaired or I'm not you know but we but but they people wear getting less sleep as a badge of honor they're like "Oh I can get by with less sleep i'm different i've been doing this for ages." And if you're thinking about peak performance well like that can make a big difference you know getting getting more sleep yeah definitely so do you think that's changing now that kind of culture of oh I don't sleep and I Yes yes i think I think there is a little bit of there is a there is change that's happening people are more aware of it and especially in the performance world right so top performers are aware of it but I think what I think that the people who have who have difficulty doing the juggling the most are people who are non-professional athletes because they have an actual job and full-time mothers or fathers or you know spouses and and then they're doing you know then and they're in addition to that are you know are triathletes so they're wearing all these hats so they really have to juggle more and there is still only 24 hours during the day yeah so you know it's not as if if you're if you were a um you know a hockey player or a you know if you were in Major League Baseball well your job is Yeah your Yeah that's the only thing your priority isn't it yeah so you you're a it's just easier you know you you've been paid ton tons of money and you focus on performance and like everything else you're kind of you focus on just just that so you it's easy for you to prioritize the sleep m it's difficult when when people um are trying to do all these things and and in addition to that also they're they're they want recovery and they want uh they want to be performers but you know the reassuring data shows now that

being physically active is good for you it itself you know it carries it it gives it's got health benefits so that's that's the good news there and that's why I saying that rather than yes of course we know that you need seven to nine hours of sleep like that's what you need ideally but it's good to to know that trying to do 15 20 minutes here or there and committing to that is it's a step in the right direction yeah definitely and so you've talked about naps and how that can be a way of yes getting that extra sleep and you talked about the time frame is there a reason that we go for like 15 20 minute naps or is there a specific length that you can use that helps so think about naps and when you think about naps think of three things think about like the duration how long the nap should be and then think of when when you should be napping now the circadian rhythm like so you have a circadian rhythm and your rhythm decides whether you're morning or evening person but all of us have like a slight dip in the alertness in the mid-after afternoon right it's after your lunch you kind of feel a little tired which is a a great time for a nap in fact like you know just a few miles a few hundreds of miles from where you are like in in many of many countries there's siesta time you know it utilizes that time in the mid-after afternoon where you can take like a slight break so that's a good time for a nap uh but then the other thing is how long should you nap and I tell people like a 15 so 20 15 to 25 minute nap you still wake up from light stages of sleep and it's really beneficial so there's something called the NASA nap protocol which is what astronauts in space do it's about 24 minutes and you set your timer for about 24 to 25 minutes and then you try to take a nap and I tell people that the way to take that nap is to do to concentrate on your breathing you know you can close your eyes like you can be sitting up or or laying down and um there's this Have you heard about the 478 breathing technique breathing yes i've not heard of that one but I do yeah breathing techniques yeah right so the 478 is that you when you breathe in you mentally count to four and then you hold your breath for seven okay and it's all mentally and then you breathe out mentally counting up to eight and you do this and what happens is that when you're concentrating on that breathing uh you you stop thinking about other things and you allow sleep to happen so if you did that and you did it for you know 25 to 30 minutes and then you woke up that would be a good nap so if you if you napped for about 35 minutes you'd get a little bit deeper stage of sleep but then of course and again unless you're you know in the NBA or the NHL they take those granddaddy naps in which you sleep for a full sleep cycle 90 to 120 minutes you don't need to do that because that would people mostly people don't have time for that so yeah yeah so I I would say 20 to 25 minutes midafter afternoon is a good time to take a nap okay so I have some people are quite resistant to it like my mom for example she will never take a nap and is there anything that you would say to people if they're like I don't I can't sleep in the day it's my mom's fear I think is that she won't sleep at night yes if she sleeps in the day so so for some people who have problems initiating and maintaining sleep at night taking a nap during the day is not a good idea and that's completely different from what we've been talking about right right yeah so there's there's there's being so b busy that you don't have enough time to sleep at night which is you know what most of the people that you perhaps work with that's what happens to them because they're just busy but then there's there's a group of people who you know even they have the time to fall asleep but then stay asleep but they can't fall asleep you know let me give you an example that makes it easy so if I didn't if I had a flight and didn't get to bed till about midnight at night and then had to wake up at 5:00 in the morning because I had to be at work i'd get only 5 hours of sleep that's sleep restriction or not getting enough time in bed right which is what a lot of people have but if I got into bed at 10:00 and then was stressed out I was like stressed out about coming on your episode and just couldn't fall asleep or fell asleep and then woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't go back to sleep and finally got out of bed at 6:00 but got only 5 hours of sleep that's insomnia which is totally different but if you have insomnia then taking a nap is a bad thing because you already have sleeping at night so I understand that right okay that's interesting because you know I do work with menopausal athletes who do get insomnia and issues with their sleep and so you would say that having a nap then isn't a good idea for them well no it isn't and for menopause I mean the easiest solution I have to tell you is hormone replacement therapy it make a big difference to your sleep and you know in the past uh HRT was stopped because of the wrong interpretation of this data which people thought that it was not good but I again like for your audience I I'll tell you like the best way to think of it is to think about a cross word puzzle and or not a cross word puzzle like just like a a a physical puzzle right and if if you when when we go through menopause we our hormone levels drop and so it's like this puzzle is missing these really essential pieces and when you don't have that That puzzle is unstable that's what happens to our sleep once we get to menopause going back on HRT and I'll tell you like I've I'm on HRT you start sleeping so much better okay you know or go back to whatever your baseline was prior to the menopause and it's you know yes there are other things you can do like you know you can look at good sleep habits and you can try to do other things but if a puzzle is missing this these two three foundational pieces it's you're just not going to sleep you know the puzzle is going to be unstable so yeah I know i think the sleep during this it's it's very tricky and I have started to have a little bit of an issue but it's not that bad and it's usually when I'm stressed or there's something going on in my life I'll like wake up at 3:00 in the morning it's always three o'clock in the morning as well i don't know why that is there must be a reason but so so the 3 o'clock a.m awakening it's I always ask people like "How do you know it's 3:00?" And you know 3:00 because you you look at the clock you look at your phone right so it's so of course like at some point you have to figure out why you're waking up at that time however it's not what you what wakes you up it's what you do once you wake up and so if you wake up at 3:00 and you look at you pick up your phone it's like it's like I can't believe it's 3 and I have all this to do the next day i'm not going to fall asleep i'm you know you start thinking about the next day and then you start thinking about the stresses you see you recruit all these you know neurons that should be asleep and then it wakes people up even further and so I mean I'll tell you two things like we do live stressful lives but we never but we go from stress and then we go to sleep and then you know it's that's why there is it's it's oldfashioned but like the the act of like keeping a journal earlier in the evening which kind of so that you can write down things and kind of make sense of the day is really useful and then if you wake up in the middle of the night not to look at the clock but and then all the things that you do in the beginning of the evening to help you wind down like reading a book or it's the same thing you can do in the middle of the night right you could like listen to something or read and kind of help you fall asleep rather than get onto that cycle of stressing out too much and you know overthinking it yeah definitely i think this week it happened to me because I've had a bit of a family crisis and I woke up but but it's a oneoff i know it's because of stress and the next night I slept really well so it was fine but it does cause that when and yeah I I should have got up really and gone and done something else but my head was just yes going over all sorts of stuff and thinking so let me ask you what are the questions your audience or the people that you coach what are the most common questions they ask you about sleep and perhaps we can um I'm just thinking there's well it's mainly to do with fitting it in yes you know managing to get enough sleep with getting to bed when they're training late in the evening um and what's you know what to do when they are not sleeping so well and a lot of my athletes are really good at managing it they know what to do they know when they're getting poor sleep and and they do something about it so it's pretty good um some people wear like that was the other thing I was going to ask you is about wearables because sometime you know you mentioned like not looking at the clock and I try not to do that actually but the other day I did cuz someone had said to me I bet you'll wake up at 3:00 in the morning thinking about all this stuff so I looked and I was like oh yeah they were right but some people wear the wearables to kind of track their sleep and I'm not convinced how accurate and how useful they are so I'd like your take on it and to see what you think so the thing is I I think I think that that that like wearables are just here to it's like a gateway drug everybody is wearing them and that's fine i think that the correct way to use a a wearable would be to wear it for perhaps for two or 3 weeks then look back and like look at that data and see hey I went to bed this and look at trends yes rather than wake up in the morning and look at it and say "Okay I slept poorly or it says it it it says that I slept well because it's that's useless information how's that going to make any difference?" Like the last thing some of the variables so some of the variables give you information like performance score or readiness score and those are [ __ ] like they mean nothing yeah and you don't need to know that information before a busy day because you're going to still have your busy day you still have to show up and it might actually um upset you or it might give you information in which you think that well I'm not as well prepared because my watch or my my you know device is telling me I'm not well prepared so that's not a it's not it's not really reliable i think the you know the the the correct way to use it is to look back at trends and say well every Thursday it looks like I go to bed really late and on this day you know I was out and I went to the bar and I noticed that I slept poorly well maybe I should course correct there i think that's the way to look at it looking at it every morning really is I mean you know exactly how much you slept you know yeah usually yeah i think sometimes I don't know whether my sleep is good or not and I'll feel tired and I will wonder why cuz I feel like I've slept but I obviously didn't sleep as well as I thought I did right and and there there is so so a there is it might not be very accurate like there's that the second thing is that that for people who are stressed about their sleep already wearables can sometimes aggravate that so it's like focusing on too much is not a good thing um I think that the like the only way to use it is to is to get that information and use that information to make course corrections like almost to if you can get it to kind of coach you to do the right things that use it it's similar to um you I track like my heart rate i measure my heart rate variability in the morning but I don't use it as like a right this is this means I shouldn't do this that and the other i just look at it and I go okay that's interesting yes right that I wonder why that happened and it's being curious about it rather than being like getting the thing to tell you what to do because you know how do we we giving a lot of um kudos to some electronic device that's been programmed that isn't necessarily looking at all the nuance that is going on in our lives yeah it's like it's like a weight scale you know the invention of a weight scale did not cure obesity but it gives you information maybe and you can say well okay I can make this change you know that's that's it's just a tool and it's a tool that you know one shouldn't obsess about yeah definitely that's really helpful awesome um so is there anything kind of new about sleep that you maybe excited about or that you've learned recently that you want to share with anyone there's there's a lot of work that shows that when it comes to like things like injury prevention it comes to like mental health regularity is almost is is really important and by that is what I mean is to try to keep you know within an hour or so of each other go to bed at the same time and kind of wake up at the same time on work days and weekends so that's one thing to to think about so when often times people during the weekday or the work week will get less sleep and then on the weekend they kind of play try and play catchup and it's it's almost better to try and get 15 20 minutes more every day during the work week so that you're more consistent and regular you our brains love consistency comes to sleep so that I think that's a good message for your audience yeah definitely i actually just a point on that i did read one at one point that it said rather than thinking about going the going to bed time it's quite useful to think about your getting up time rather than that and then that sort of influences the going to bed time i don't know yeah actually and and so so that's so the way to think about it is that if you think that every morning I have to be up like I need to be up by 6:30 like what time do you have to be up every morning me um I normally get wake up at about half 6ish or 6 depending yeah so between 6:00 and 6:30 so kind of count 7 or 8 backwards that's the time you should be in bed right so it's it's a good way to make those calculations so So that would bring you to the 10:00 mark if you were think 8 hours and then maybe like 20 minutes or earlier you would set that alarm to do that winding down and that would kind of help you create a schedule for yourself yeah yeah yeah that sounds like I'm on schedule then yes i'm usually in bed about 9 9:30 so yeah no I and I talk to other people and I'm like I'm always in bed early some people are and some people aren't it's interesting yeah and it's because it's you know people different people have different internal schedules yeah for sure definitely oh that's really helpful thank you Ma um is there any are there any socials or any thing that you'd like to share any kind of links that can go to i'll have I'll have my assistant send you to you know I'm on LinkedIn i am on X not Twitter but X as well as um Instagram and then I do have a free newsletter by the way okay it's a weekly newsletter and um it's just a compile comp you know maybe like the five top uh best research in you know in sleep and psychology and emotional and wealth and uh health well-being yeah that sounds great so I'll I'll you know if you go to the website which is my website you can sign up on that okay well I'll put all the links in the show notes underneath the episode and people can find you there and thank you very much for all of your um useful information and tips for people it's been really helpful thank you for having me that's all right thank you have a good rest of your day thanks for listening today have a great day take care bye for now [Music]