The Ordinary Doula Podcast
Welcome to The Ordinary Doula Podcast with Angie Rosier, hosted by Birth Learning. We help folks prepare for labor and birth with expertise coming from 20 years of experience in a busy doula practice, helping thousands of people prepare for labor, providing essential knowledge and tools for positive and empowering birth experiences.
The Ordinary Doula Podcast
E70: Bridging Two Worlds: Doula and Nurse Perspectives
Angie welcomes doula and nursing student Dani Reed to explore the complementary roles and challenges of nurses and doulas in the birth room, sharing insights from her unique perspective of having worked in both worlds.
• Dani's journey from birth doula of eight years to nursing student pursuing certification as a midwife and women's health nurse practitioner
• The heavy workload nurses carry including documentation, checklists, and physician communication that often remains invisible to patients and doulas
• How patient autonomy requests can disrupt hospital routines and create difficult situations for nurses who must follow doctor's orders
• Nurses act as advocates between patients and physicians but face political challenges when pushing back against hospital systems
• Doulas and nurses view birth from different perspectives – medical safety versus holistic experience
• Creating collaborative relationships by acknowledging each other's humanity and complementary strengths
• Building trust between doulas and nurses through transparency, communication and mutual respect
• The importance of maintaining compassion while developing professional resilience in birth work
Make a human connection today. Reach out to someone you know or someone you don't, and make their life a little bit better through human connection.
Instagram: @mindovermaternitydoula
Website: https://www.mindovermaternity.com/
Visit our website, here: https://birthlearning.com/
Follow us on Facebook at Birth Learning
Follow us on Instagram at @birthlearning
Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier Frampton
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning, where we help prepare folks for labor and birth with expertise coming from 20 years of experience in a busy doula practice, helpingping thousands of people prepare for labor, providing essential knowledge and tools for positive and empowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast. My name is Angie Rozier, I am your host and I have a very special guest here with me today. Her name is Dani Reed and she's been a dear friend for a few years now, dani, it's been so amazing. I always tell her I love her journey and it's true, it's been amazing to see her come on to the scene as a doula and she just thrived quickly. But she always had a goal in mind. She knew where she was going and what she was doing and she's doing it and I love seeing it. So I'll let you tell. I'll let her tell a little more about her journey. But her goal was to become an RN and a CNM and she's doing it. She's right in the middle of all that and is gaining so much cool insight along the way. I love the pathway she's going. So I'm gonna let Dani before I introduce our topic actually no, I'll introduce our topic first and then I'll let Dani talk about herself a little bit more, kind of extend what I've just shared.
Speaker 2:But Danny and I have discussed this episode for a while and I think both of us come to honestly with a little bit of trepidation because we want to do it justice. Danny and I are both in a seat where we value people's roles and want to understand people. I think we have a pretty good understanding of roles, but we want to help other people understand and get a good comprehension of the different roles of the birth team. So, because of Dani's journey, she's in this really unique position. She's kind of on a bridge between being a doula and being a nurse and seeing both sides of that really clearly, which is a cool perspective to have. So what we'll talk about today is the roles of doulas and nurses, their perspectives, how they're different, how they're the same, the challenges that may exist between the roles and the way they can complementary, enhance each other. So that's kind of our topic in a nutshell. We'll get to that. But, danny, tell us a little bit about yourself so glad you could be here. And, yeah, tell us a little bit more about yourself.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be able to contribute to your podcast today. So, yes, my name is Dani.
Speaker 3:I have been a birth doula for about eight years now and a childbirth educator for about six. I've known that I wanted to be a certified nurse midwife ever since I knew what that was. I've always been drawn to pregnancy, to babies, to birth especially. I've always felt a deep respect and reverence for this process and an eagerness to learn about it and to be close to the people who accomplish these amazing feats. And an eagerness to learn about it and to be close to the people who accomplish these amazing feats.
Speaker 3:I went to school for a while but decided to put school on pause for 10 years to start my family, and once I was done having kids, I decided it was time to go back to school to complete my education. Having worked as a doula for several years, I got my feet wet in the birth world and it was really interesting to me because I came at this originally with a very, very medical mindset. Um, and becoming a doula was actually a huge growing process for me because there were a lot of things that I uh, had to change my mentality on Um and I felt like it was very valuable for me to spend that time as a doula to see some of the more holistic side of things, and now that I'm back in school, I am finishing my nursing degree right now and hoping to go on to receive my certification as a midwife and a women's health nurse practitioner.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so exciting. I know like that, what you just said sounds easy, but it's not. I know you're in the middle of it and it's a lot of work and has been for a while and will continue to be. So thanks for doing that work. So, dani, as we talk through this, hopefully people understand I love the position you're in right now and I wanted to catch Dani actually at this time in her career because she does have a foot in each world, which is pretty incredible. So, dani, as you have learned more in nursing school and I know you've worked, you know some of your clinicals and things have been in places you're familiar with as a doula. Tell me a little bit about what you have, the insight you have gained by doing nursing school specifically to childbirth like as you've worked in that area on both sides of the doula and nurse role.
Speaker 3:It's been very interesting to approach nursing school from a doula perspective.
Speaker 3:When I first started nursing school, I felt a little bit nervous about my background, knowing that I was surrounded by very medically minded people. However, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that my nursing school actually has a great deal of emphasis on holistic care in a nursing perspective. They really emphasize taking care of women in a mind, body, spirit approach, which I really appreciate, have been very impressed with. But as I have gone about my clinicals and started working in hospitals, it's been very eye-opening for me to understand the role of nurses, to understand all of the responsibilities, all of the stresses that they have on their plate and the things that kind of make them tick.
Speaker 3:You know, as a doula going into a birth room, it was easy for me to oversimplify the role of the nurse because I could only see what was in front of me. And becoming a nurse and learning all that goes into the job behind the scenes has been very, like I said, very eye opening and understanding how busy they are. Very eyeopening, um, and understanding how busy they are, how stressed they are, how much demand is placed on them, how much pressure that they carry Um, it's been very interesting to discover that and to kind of, like you said, have one foot in each world. It's, it's almost like a tug of war inside of me, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, I guess, what surprised you most about? It sounds like you've gained a lot of empathy for nurses in learning this role, but what has surprised you most about, or helped you gain that empathy or awareness of the heavy load that they might carry?
Speaker 3:I think, well, there are a lot of things that go into that. When I have been working in clinicals, there have been a lot of logistics that I've had to think about. One thing that surprised me was just the sheer amount of to-do lists that nurses carry. It's not so much a matter of just walking in the room and taking care of the patient. There's so much that goes on behind the scenes with documentation, with following checklists, with communicating with physicians, with other nurses, and to coordinate that care so that the patient has their needs met. And I guess one thing that surprised me a lot was just the amount of hoops that have to be jumped, I guess. So you know, for me it would be.
Speaker 3:It was easy for me to look at a nurse and say, okay, come in the room, set up your stuff and let's just have a baby, right.
Speaker 3:But.
Speaker 3:But on their end they're looking at the documentation they're they're charting every you know.
Speaker 3:They're charting in intervals of time where they need to be accounting for what they've been doing, what's been happening inside the room, how the woman is laboring, how they're responding to that, you know, and accounting for every single thing that they do. They have a routine right and their checklist of things that they need to accomplish is huge, and it's really difficult for them to get that done, even in the course of their shift, and so they get into a routine, you know, to become more efficient. And in addition to that, they they work with doctors who have their own routine, their own way that they like to have things done, and anything that interrupts that process really makes their job so much more difficult. You know. So if, if they're going along in that process, they're in their groove, they've got their routine down, they're moving along their checklist, they're charting on time, and then someone steps in and says, well, wait, how about we do it this way? That can really throw things off for them and, additionally, that can create conflict between them and the doctor.
Speaker 2:Because they have to keep that doctor happy too.
Speaker 3:Right, Like the patient, the doctor, Because they have to keep that doctor happy too right.
Speaker 2:Like the patient, the doctor, they're in an in-between role themselves all the time.
Speaker 3:They are and they're in it for the long run, you know for doulas, you know we meet with this doctor, we see them, we interact with them once in a while. These nurses have to deal with them, you know, on a daily or weekly basis. I didn't mean for that to sound negative. They interact with these doctors frequently and so you know some doctors have their routines and the way they get things done, and so when you step outside of that routine it can create feelings of insecurity about the process. And so I guess it was very insightful for me to understand the back end of things, that when the routine is going well and then someone interrupts that routine, how it can create conflict between the staff and it can create difficulty between the staff and the birthing family.
Speaker 2:So that brings up a good, because I think, as a doula I mean, I've called doulas interrupters anyway right, we are interrupters of systems and policies, sometimes in a good way, but that does have some challenging ramifications for the systems and that we might interrupt, whether it's like one nurse's routines or the systematic policies that are archaic or whatever. Right, so, as doulas, let's you know, step on this side of the fence a little bit. A lot of times we empower our clients. Empower is the word right To ask for things to not be on the conveyor belt system of patient care, make your individual like, individualize your experience by your requests, by your birth plan, by whatever, by knowing your options, by having knowledge. But it sounds like sometimes by creating a lot of patient autonomy, that can create some challenges on the systematic approach of any shift of nurses. Correct, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3:Okay, yes, I think that that kind of interruption can be a very positive thing, but it takes a great deal of adjustment on the part of the staff, and I think seasoned nurses who have been supporting women for a long time they can make that adjustment more easily. But what I've seen is a lot of the nurses who are younger, who are less experienced, have a much harder time deviating from the routine, and some of them are less secure about their role, and so it's easier for them to feel threatened by someone coming in and saying, well, let's do it this way instead.
Speaker 2:Or even the patient. When the patient says, I don't prefer to do it that way, I want to do it this way, that can actually disrupt their feelings of security in their role. So give us an example of something that a laboring people might they might ask to do differently, like that's off routine. Give us an example of that.
Speaker 3:Well, one classic example is declining cervical exams. I think that's something that needs to be documented frequently, and so a nurse needs to show that they have been doing their due diligence, that they're that looks like they're responsible right Exactly.
Speaker 3:They're responsible to be able to identify where this woman is at in the progression of her labor, and if she can't account for that, it appears that she's not doing her job. And so it's a very important thing that a family has the right to say no. I don't want this done, but I think that can create some conflict between the staff and the families when they say but I need to figure out where you are right now. I need to understand so that we can be ready to care for you, right yeah?
Speaker 3:exactly, so we can understand what your needs are and we can respond appropriately to that. And without that kind of information it's a lot harder for them to not only document but to respond.
Speaker 2:So the perspective of nurses and the perspective of doulas. We're looking at the same object, which is a laboring person, right, but from different vantage points. So walk us through how a nurse is an advocate for a patient.
Speaker 3:Nurses advocate between patients and physicians a lot, and physicians a lot. Nurses are the point of contact for their patients in deciphering how the patient is tolerating their labor, what they need. You know they might have a set of orders for medications but, you know, because of the preferences of the family, they need to contact the doctor and say, actually this isn't working for them, you know, and to advocate for their patients by saying is there something that we can do to change these orders to accommodate this family, assuming everybody is safe. Speaking to doctors and changing plans can be really intimidating, even for nurses, even for seasoned nurses, and so that kind of advocacy takes some courage.
Speaker 2:So we could by making simple requests that doulas do every single day can really put the nurse in a tough spot that we might not know about right, like you don't. It's behind behind the scenes kind of. Yes, for instance, when I see quite a bit is like okay, we want to start Pitocin and the family's like we don't want to start Pitocin and so there might be an ensuing one, two, three hours of waiting patiently trying other things like that might look different on the back end for the nurse, correct?
Speaker 3:Yes, and I have seen nurses kind of put that off by saying you know, let's talk about this and you know we'll give you some time to think about it and I'll try to kind of stall this process while you try to figure out if this is something that you want or not. But it is really difficult to disobey an order from a doctor. When they put in orders to start Pitocin, I mean it feels as though you're gambling your license to disobey those orders, to disobey those orders, and so it's a matter of having those orders changed. It's not as simple as saying oh, that's your choice. As much as I wish that were the way it is, you know to be able to say, of course, that's what you want, like, let's just do that. You know it's not that simple for the nurse.
Speaker 2:Right. So I've found and probably you in your career as well some we could get down to individual providers, but also we can say places. Some hospitals and or the culture of their providers seem like they're much better at that than others. Is that a fair statement?
Speaker 3:Absolutely yes, and I think a lot of the staff are at the mercy of the hospital policies.
Speaker 2:Right, which are also very different.
Speaker 3:right yes, I've seen many nurses that say I'm supportive of your preferences and I am bound by these policies, so they're in a difficult position.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, okay, so well, let me, because I think nurses get a bad rap sometimes, right, and so do doulas, right? Doulas get a bad rap sometimes from nurses and nurses from doulas. I was at a birth last night at a hospital I have never been to, which is kind of rare for my area I've 20 years, I've never been to this hospital and so they introduced me as the doula and it was shift change and these two nurses it was kind of hilarious, they had this conversation right in front of me and one of them says the outgoing nurse says, oh, I love it when doulas hear, hear. And the incoming nurse, who I was going to be with for the next 12 hours, said, eh, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not. I'm like, oh gosh, like I hope it'll be good tonight. But I heard loud and clear her perspective on some doulas, right, and so I think, because we look at the same subject the patient we both have what we think are their best interests at heart. We both have what we think are their best interests at heart. We both know them differently, right, we have different focuses. Really, as you talked about holistic, I love that you mentioned your nursing school focus on holistic care, which I love to hear that Because, as doulas, we absolutely focus on the holistic, like what are the emotions of this experience going to be like for this person for the next decades of their life? Right, we're not just looking at the vitals of their life, right? We're not just looking at the vitals of the day, right, the vital signs of the day, which are so important, but we're also looking at the emotional impact of this experience on the mom and the baby and the family and things like that. So I think we look at the same thing from different angles.
Speaker 2:But in some research I did my own statistics and data that I'd kept for 20 years. I asked hundreds of past clients what was the most positive things about their birth experience and what was the most negative, and I was so shocked. I was really pretty surprised by this. But other than the length of labor right, like long labors, nobody loves that that was the number one most negative aspect of the experience. Number two was nurses. Like the whatever you know vibe they got from the nurses or they didn't get from the nurses and that was I was dismayed to hear that I wasn't like. I'd seen that plenty of times. You know, like the nurse is frustrating, but, as you've said, they get put in a tough spot. Right they are. They're a liaison between the labor, the patient, the doctor, the policies, the safety. So speak to that a little bit why nurses sometimes get a bad rap. And this is from patients, right, this is from patients' mouths.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think it's no secret that nurses have an extremely difficult and challenging and demanding job. Nurses work very long hours. They aren't paid enough and it's true it's a hard job they're. They're very, very busy, you know. They're often on their feet for the entire 12 hours, barely stopping for lunch, if that they're. They're tired, you know, and they're stressed. They're getting pressure from the physicians and a lot of them, unfortunately, tend to act in fear. It only takes a few very traumatic experiences for a medical provider or healthcare worker to change their perspective on anything.
Speaker 2:Moving forward forever more right?
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think I've seen unfortunately, I've seen this in school as well but I think there is a great deal of fear surrounding birth and I think when people approach birth from any direction with fear, it promotes this kind of emotional response where you're not necessarily doing things because that's what's for the best, but you're so terrified of what will happen if you don't.
Speaker 3:And so I think a lot of nurses get a bad rap because they, because they're fearful, they want to make sure that they are crossing every T and dotting every I, that they're being extremely responsible, so that they can prove to themselves and to the hospital and to the physician that they have done everything in their power to prevent bad things from happening, to take good care of their patients. Yeah, and that's what they want. I mean, that's what everybody wants. Right Is for a healthy mom and a healthy baby. And I think when they have that much pressure coming from multiple directions and the fear coming from inside, from negative past experiences, it can create a lot of tension and that tension can lead to feelings of anxiety, of conflict.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, that's well said. So I think, as doulas, a lot of time I can speak, for, I think, a lot of dozens of new doulas I've seen myself included when I was a newer doula. I think we come at childbirth with this little bit rosy colored, you know, glasses. Like birth is amazing, it's physiologic, it's perfect. Just leave it alone, you don't need to mess with it.
Speaker 2:We come at oftentimes this is generalizing, but we have that belief about birth, right, and nurses come from a little bit different, like they might be at a different perspective, like we do need to manage this, we need to take care of this. So I think some of the conflict might just be philosophical, right, like we're again looking at the same animal of a different color, like we're just, um, coming at it from different philosophical standings. Um, so how do we, as doulas, how do we go into this system and approach physiologic birth, support, physiologic birth, patient autonomy, and so this will move into the question of how do these roles complement each other? But how can we do that with our holistic view of birth, which is ideal? It's not realistic all the time, but how do we?
Speaker 3:bridge that gap. That's a really challenging question and I feel like this is one of the great challenges that doulas have. I feel like to add some perspective. In school, nurses are not taught very much about the normal, the normal progressions of things. They're taught you know very briefly, this is how things are supposed to work and the entire semester is spent on everything else that can go wrong and all of the reasons why things go wrong, to the point where people come away feeling like and saying it never goes right absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a miracle if everything could ever go right.
Speaker 2:Like it's absolutely dumbfounding that things can can go well so they focus not on the physiology of it, but more the pathophysiology of it, like here's what yes, because that's what they're addressing Right, and as clinicians, it's their responsibility to navigate those possibilities, you know.
Speaker 3:And so, as doulas, I think it's important that we acknowledge that we acknowledge the very real possibilities that things could go south, that although birth is natural and normal and beautiful, there are very real dangers that can be involved as well, and that we respect that process when we come to it, that we can demonstrate to the nurses that, yes, things are going well and I'm happy to support things the way that they're going now. But I also recognize that if things go this way, I'm in over my head. This is not my responsibility. I'm not going to try to fix it, I'm not going to interfere with your process.
Speaker 2:Or skills right.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I'm going to support you as you do your job to help this family navigate this challenge okay, okay, um.
Speaker 2:So because you have, I know that your time as a doula is going to have an incredible positive effect on your time as a nurse and your time as a midwife. So let's speak to both sides of that. How can, like, how is being a doula going to impact you being a nurse and how can being now that you have are in nursing school and have done some nursing work, how is that going to shift your role as a doula? Like, how would you, how does it make you doula differently that you've gotten into the nursing role, and vice versa.
Speaker 3:That's a great question. I feel like this, this added perspective. It's been a very interesting meshing of worlds and sometimes I have a hard time joining them together. Sometimes I feel like compartmentalizing. Yes, right now I'm a doula and I see everything is wonderful and natural, and now I'm a nurse and I'm very clinical. But being able to merge those worlds has been actually a greater challenge than I anticipated.
Speaker 3:But I feel like having greater compassion for each role and the unique responsibilities that they carry has been key to this. So, as a doula, when I'm working, I can appreciate with greater depth what the nurses are doing. I can look at them and say wow, you're really busy and you're still taking the time to do these things that aren't really part of your job, you know, thank you for getting that for her, thank you for helping me give counter pressure, thank you for providing those encouraging words. You didn't have to do that, you know. But but you're here, you're doing that and showing up for her, and I can have an appreciation for that.
Speaker 3:And when I'm working as a nurse, I can see people who are trying to support the patient and I can appreciate them too and say I'm so busy I don't have time to do that right now. I'm tired. I don't have the strength to carry on doing counterpressure because I'm taking care of four other people right now. So thank you for what you're doing. I think overall it's just giving me a greater amount of compassion for each role and the way that they complement each other, because ultimately, a nurse can be phenomenal, an absolute asset to the birthing family, and so can a doula, but they have very different roles and they come at it from different ways.
Speaker 2:So when they have both, when the patient has both. That's, that's your goal, right? Yeah, that's where the money? Yes, that's the ideal. Yeah, very cool. Okay, I want to ask maybe a tricky question about politics like the politics of a place and policy Like does and we kind of touched on that already but does that come into play sometimes, like the behind the scenes, some politics going on for nurses?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. If there's a nurse who pushes back too much people around them can make their job absolutely horrible. Those kinds of nurses that want to fight the good fight and stand up for their patients and advocate for change are often the nurses that get trampled on and unfortunately, those nurses end up having to redirect and reroute and go elsewhere. It's. It's very difficult to. Unfortunately, the politics are such that that physicians, the doctors and midwives are in charge, that they're, because their scope of practice is so much larger and because they're the ones writing the orders and creating the plans.
Speaker 3:It's kind of what they say goes and even though they're often not the ones in the room, they're calling the shots. And if there's a nurse that comes in and says actually I've spent all this time with the patient, I understand them and their needs a lot better, it challenges their authority. It creates an imbalance of power and this imaginary sensation that you're threatening my authority, and so I feel like it's very difficult it's a very delicate balance for nurses to walk to show their respect and the support for their patients and to show the deference that the physicians deserve as well and to say I understand, this is what's clinically best and this is also what they need for their mental, their emotional, spiritual needs. How can we combine that, how can we pull this together and to find the very very tactful, very creative and careful ways to advocate for their patients.
Speaker 2:It's a can exist when people get the support of a doula and the support of a nurse, and when those complement each other, I think you can. That's your best situation, right? Your absolute best situation for the patient, which is incredible. So for some parting thoughts, if you're cool with it, and I think you and I could talk about this online actually but what are some some best ways or some top ways that, as doulas or patients as they understand going in, because, honestly, dani, like I work in a hospital and I think a strength that doulas have is to take the patients one at a time, right. Like doulas have a lot of touch points with their patients, literal touch points, time spent in their home, like they get to know these people incredibly well, on a very intimate level, and then the nurse doesn't right. The nurse knows their urine, she knows their, you know their blood pressure, she knows a lot of their vitals, she knows a lot about the medical but not the personal part of the person. And so what I see as I work in hospitals, when I work in all the time as a lactation consultant, and then as I've worked in other hospitals. I'm always shocked at the quick touch points which are not that intimate, right, they're not very connecting, whereas a doula we have. Very like, one of our top priorities is the emotional concern and care of the people, whereas the nurses, like I mean, they can sit out at the desk and say some pretty disparaging things.
Speaker 2:As you in a professional world, you say like, oh, room six, blah, blah, blah. And if you really dig into room six, if they're complaining about it, wow, maybe this is their third loss. Or you know, they had three losses before this pregnancy. That's why they're so nervous or whatever. Like if you dig into the person, which is what doulas, do you understand more. So I guess my question is how can we bring those two roles together in a less, with less conflict and more collaboration? What are ways that those two roles can appreciate each other? So, as people, as people who hire doulas, they have a doula. How can they best set up that ideal situation for themselves where they have the best cooperation among the different roles?
Speaker 3:I think in a perfect world nurses would have the time to do this and I think if they can take even just a few moments in the patient's room to have a conversation that's not clinical, I think if doulas and nurses can talk together in a conversation with the birthing family and just get to know each other a little bit, you know, tell me a little bit about it On a human level right, just human level, yep.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how long have you worked here? You know what do you like about this hospital. You know, do you have kids? And connect with them on a more human level? I think when you can access their humanity beyond the scrubs, you know, I feel like that's when they become invested in you. It's so easy for them and honestly it's a I think it's a coping mechanism for them to kind of keep their patients at a distance because you just don't know what's going to happen and it's so much more exhausting to invest yourself emotionally.
Speaker 3:But if people can invite each other in, if nurses can invite doulas into the dialogue and doulas can invite nurses into the dialogue, and they can connect on a human level, I feel like that's where that support can really take place and develop. But I feel like when the opposite happens, that's usually when the alienation occurs and when it becomes a me versus them kind of mentality. It's all about the approach. I think so and I think it's just about connecting with the other people and finding you know what's important to you, why you work here. I mean, obviously they didn't go to nursing school so they can pick on people and control people Right, they don't hate people.
Speaker 3:No, because they're compassionate, they're caring, they want to help, they want to do some good in the world, you know. So access that. You know, dig and find that a little bit, and I think when you find that then it shines.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool, the humanity of accessing humanity there's. As I've worked in hospitals and the hospital that I work in every week, when the tough stuff happens on labor and delivery, like the hard things, right Like out at the nurse's desk, you feel it Like it can ruin a whole shift for dozens of people, right Like I've seen days where all the nurses are crying, right, because something tough, because they do care, something very difficult has happened and then they have to walk into that next patient's room as if they're fine, right Like that they're 110%. So, also, seeing the humanity of that side of the nurses and what they're dealing with, because they're not going to let you know how they feel, right, about whatever's going on in their day, if it's the 11th hour of their 12 hour shift and they're exhausted or, you know, maybe down the hall they just had a patient there was a huge loss or a terrible, you know a terrible situation. They don patient. There's a huge loss or a terrible, you know a terrible situation. They don't let their other patients know that.
Speaker 2:So, um, I think, just like you said, accessing humanity of each other, um, and appreciation, finding ways to appreciate each other's roles, and I think that can lie. That can be a doula role, right like the. The doulas um can bring people together, um, not just the, you know, for the patient, but for the patient's benefit. But it's not just the patient they're bringing together, it's the whole team. So, oh, wow, dani, that's some good stuff. Anything else you want to add as we kind of get towards the end of our conversation?
Speaker 3:I guess one other thing that I wanted to point out is that nurses are not usually taught the importance of things like maternal positioning, even fetal positioning other than, you know, cephalic right. Um, they don't often know what doulas are or even what their rules are, um, and they might, they might have this idea that if anything that's not strictly medical is weird or interfering or possibly even dangerous, you know, and so, because of there's so much unknown to them, they approach doulas with a very with a large feeling of suspicion, and it's really easy for them to look at them and say what is it you're going to do?
Speaker 1:And they're on edge, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3:And they want to protect their patient Right, and they look at this doula going like what, what is it that you're planning on doing when I turn my back, when I'm not in the room? Like can I trust you? Are you on my team too? So true, you know, and it's it's scary for them to leave their patients in the hands of someone that they don't trust. Yeah, you know, and so I I feel like being transparent as a doula and and tying explaining to your nurse you know, I'm just going to give some counter pressure here. This is going to help give her some relief or just verbalizing that to your client with the nurse in the room, you know, helping them understand, like this is what I'm here to do. Or even just saying it, just coming out right and saying to the nurse this is what I have found that has really helped a lot of laboring women. Like do you want to learn how to do it too? Like do you want to come help me do it and invite them to be part of that process? I think can be really valuable.
Speaker 2:That's true. You bring up some great points there. I think collaboration again is huge between doulas and nurses and really, like I love that, the distrust thing. I think doulas and nurses come at each other with a fair amount of distrust for the good of the patient, right, same person, like we're talking about the same person here, but just like looking at again from different perspectives. So I think a lot of times I love that collaboration piece and a lot of times I will ask a nurse like, okay, here's what I'm thinking, what are you thinking? Like draw them in and discuss with them?
Speaker 2:Say, all right, you know she's kind of nervous about this, or how can you, what are some ideas you have that we can address with this fear or this whatever, or I think, the baby's ROP, what you know, I was thinking of doing some opening chest, or you know doing some. You know the fire hydrant. What do you think? Are you comfortable if we, you know, get the stool out, or do you have a ball we could use? So and I think that's again collaboration, right, like we're on the same team here, we're helping the same person and if we can use both sets of strengths to do that, that is just all the more benefit really for the patient.
Speaker 3:Yes, I absolutely love that approach. I think when you approach a nurse like they're a fellow teammate, they can feel that, and when you come at them like you're scared of them or you're nervous or suspicious about them. They feel that too.
Speaker 3:So I think it's really important to acknowledge their strengths, acknowledge all of the good that they can do, and then show what you have to bring to the table and say how can we work together to accomplish this? You want what I want. Let's work together to help this woman to have a positive experience.
Speaker 2:I love it when doulas can make the nurse's job easier as far as tidying up the room or letting her know like, oh, she's feeling pretty pushy, or you know, this alarm's going off, Can you? You know this IV bag's almost done, or whatever it might be. You know, hopefully we can. I think part of a doula's role is to make the jobs nurse or, excuse me, make the nurse's job just a little bit easier, just to lighten their load a little bit so that they can go about all their many duties that they have on shift for sure. So I absolutely agree with that. Cool. So as you go into what do you want to keep Like firmly keep, as you go into nursing and or CNM care from the doula world?
Speaker 3:I want to keep my deep sense of compassion and awe of humanity and the incredible miracle that is pregnancy and birth. I never want to become calloused to the experiences that people have. I never want to become so tough and so strong that I can't feel for my patients anymore. I don't want to be so afraid of feeling those things that I build a wall between myself and them. I want to be accessible to my patients. I want to be able to sit with them in their victories and in their miseries and in their pain and everything in between, and to say that I see you, rather than being very sterile about things and I think that it's very, very common for medical providers to build up those defenses to protect themselves Because, honestly, burnout is very, very high in healthcare and for me they see some hard stuff yes, incredibly hard things, impossible things, and I think one of the greatest challenges for all healthcare workers is to find that very delicate balance between resilience and compassion, and so that's one of my greatest goals.
Speaker 3:I want to maintain that compassion and that deep intimacy and that love that I experienced toward my clients. I want to carry that with me throughout the rest of my career.
Speaker 2:Very cool. I think you're well on your way. That's amazing, very cool. Well, dani, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. It has been eye-opening for me to hear both sides of these two roles the nurse and the doula and how patients you know benefit vastly Like there's a huge benefit from both roles and how we can work together to improve the patient experience and outcomes right Like outcomes are important emotional, physical, mental, spiritual, like all the outcomes that come after a labor and birth experience for not just the patient but the whole family, the baby as well. Thank you, dani, so much for being here. Appreciate your time and good luck to you on your journey.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited as you could just march through your journey. I know it's a lot of waiting through things and I appreciate the work that you're doing, so thank you for that. I can't wait to work with you as a CNM somewhere. Hopefully I get the opportunity down the road. I would love it. Yeah, just give me a few more years. I'm there. I'm there for it, so we'll wrap it up today, but thank you so much for being with us on the Ordinary Dealer podcast and, as always, please make a human connection today. Reach out to someone, someone you know, someone you don't, but reach out and make someone's life a little bit better by human connection today. Thanks for being with us and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Ordinary Doula podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning. Episode credits will be in the show notes Tune in next time as we continue to explore the many aspects of giving birth. Thank you.