The Ordinary Doula Podcast
Welcome to The Ordinary Doula Podcast with Angie Rosier, hosted by Birth Learning. We help folks prepare for labor and birth with expertise coming from 20 years of experience in a busy doula practice, helping thousands of people prepare for labor, providing essential knowledge and tools for positive and empowering birth experiences.
The Ordinary Doula Podcast
E73: Dr. Venice Haynes believes we can transform postpartum support by 2030
Dr. Venice Haynes shares her groundbreaking work on the 100 Weeks Project, which aims to transform maternal healthcare from preconception through the postpartum year by addressing systemic barriers and creating culturally congruent solutions. She reveals how the project's comprehensive journey maps and state-by-state analysis expose critical gaps in care while highlighting opportunities for employers, policymakers, and communities to better support birthing people.
• Black women are almost three times more likely to die from maternity-related causes than white women
• The 100 Weeks framework covers preconception (4 weeks), pregnancy (40 weeks), and extended postpartum (56 weeks)
• Journey maps compare clinical recommendations with actual experiences and highlight ideal care scenarios
• State analysis shows Southern states generally provide poorer postpartum support, tracking with areas that haven't expanded Medicaid
• Cultural congruency in healthcare providers is key to building trust and improving outcomes
• Ideal postpartum care includes more frequent check-ups, home visits, lactation support, and mental health resources
• Employers play a crucial role through parental leave policies and comprehensive health benefits
• Community-based solutions like home visits and non-traditional appointment hours can improve access
• Building trust takes time
• Advocates should contact legislators, donate to community organizations, and create safe spaces for support
- The Journey Map – Maternal health polices often focus solely on birth, overlooking the challenges that Black mothers face before and after pregnancy.
- The State of Postpartum Care – Interactive maps from USofCare show that postpartum outcomes remain worst in the South, home to the largest share of Black Americans.
- Bright Spots in Maternal Health – USofCare identified promising programs and practices improving maternal health outcomes by engaging with Black women and other women of color.
- Listening to Women of Color – Through in-depth conversations, USofCare uncovered key challenges that Black women face.
- Birthing Bias – Through listening work, USofCare identified that Black women frequently experience racial bias and dismissive treatment.
- 100 Weeks of Care Issue Brief – A comprehensive look at the full Black maternity health journey, identifying gaps and inequalities across pregnancy, birth, and postpartum care.
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Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier Frampton
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning, where we help prepare folks for labor and birth with expertise coming from 20 years of experience in a busy doula practice, helping thousands of people prepare for labor, providing essential knowledge and tools for positive and empowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast. I am your host, angie Rozier, and we have a pretty incredible guest with us here today. We have Dr Venice Haynes. She lives near Atlanta, georgia, and has some pretty awesome work she's been focused on. I'm going to let her do a little more introduction of that, but what I love about a lot of her work is it been focused on. I'm going to let her do a little more introduction of that. But what I love about a lot of her work is it's focused on the postpartum period. A lot of times that's a neglected in women's health. That's a neglected period of time and it's a pretty long period of time as well. So we're going to kind of dive in today to her work, what it's doing, how it can help people. So, dr Venice Haynes, will you give us a little background about yourself and let's dive into the work you've been doing?
Speaker 3:Yes, angie, thank you so much for having me. It is a pleasure. I love having these conversations and I'm really excited to talk about two really cool products we've just released within the last month and a half or so. So, as you mentioned, my name is Dr Venice Haynes.
Speaker 3:I've been born and raised in the Atlanta area. I've left and come back for school a couple of times, but I've always been really, really passionate about women's health throughout my public health career. I bring all about 17 years of public health experience to bear at United States of Care, which is a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that centers people first and building policy at the state and federal level, and so my role is to listen to people all across the country around their pain points and wants and needs and desires for the health care system, and I feed that data up to our state and federal policy teams to create better policies that ultimately lead to better outcomes. And so I've been really excited to bring my past experience in public health and women's health into the ecosphere of US care and, I'll say, in the process of doing a lot of listening on a number of topics in the health care space, the maternal health crisis has come up numerous times, so much so that we could not ignore that it was a critical area that we need to be addressing in our work, in our work streams, and so we've done a lot of listening since 2003 in this space with women across the country, but specifically women of color, and we started with Black women because they are the most affected by this. For those that don, and we started with Black women because they are the most affected by this For those that don't know the stats Black women are almost three times and in some instances, wherever you are in the country, higher than three times likely to die from maternity-related causes than any other woman, and so we started with a group of women that were most impacted by it and really wanted to understand more.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of stories that we may have heard about near-miss events or unfortunate events where women have actually died, but in those instances, those are extreme instances. There's a lot of other pain points that happen with women that are still here, and so we uncovered that and what I will talk a lot about. The framework for our project is called 100 Weeks, and so we realized that capturing stories just within the 40 week pregnancy period was not enough. There was a lot happening in the preconception period and we wanted to make sure that we were categorizing and understanding the pain points during preconception all the way to one year plus postpartum. And so you put together four weeks plus 40 weeks plus 56 weeks. I think we counted. I might have my numbers wrong, but somehow that that gets to 100.
Speaker 3:It gets to 100 weeks, right.
Speaker 3:So that became the framework and the backdrop for which we talk to women and ask them their experiences across that continuum, and so what we did with that information was create a journey map that chronicled not only the experiences women had, but we wanted to add layers that incorporated what the clinical recommendations were right to understand what's supposed to happen at each phase.
Speaker 3:Then we layered on the experiences of stories that they told us and that demonstrates what's actually happening in that in each of those phases we wanted to know what her ideal experience was, so that we are not only we're not trying to maintain the status quo, we're actually trying to highlight the ideal experience, to call up a better standard of care in each phase, and we also one of my favorite parts is capturing bright spots, and that is organizations, community-based tech companies, corporate employers for where they are actually getting in and solving some of the problems in the maternal landscape that are plaguing women across the country. So that those are a few of the critical layers that we have throughout the journey map, which is really awesome. I will link that to in your show notes if people want to check it out.
Speaker 3:Yes, please do. Yeah. Yeah, it's really dynamic and it by no means is exhaustive, but I think when your viewers can go in and look at that, what we've been hearing is people can resonate with some parts of you know of any any of that. And one of the things that I like to highlight about that and again when we were starting with Black women is there's an element of how they are coming into their pregnancy experience based on past injustices and past experiences from the healthcare system at large, right.
Speaker 2:So they're having. There's oftentimes a mistrust right Like a huge mistrust of the medical system.
Speaker 3:And the reason why is because so much stereotyping has already happened Criminalization of pain, ignoring pain and I'm not even talking about in maternal health, it's just trying to get basic health care needs met and dismissed. And so they're coming in with this stress and mistrust and wondering and questioning, questioning, and we capture these emotions and thoughts in the journey map as well, because it's an important backdrop to consider how they're entering into their decision to become pregnant or, if it's an unintended pregnancy, how they continue to navigate through the next year or so.
Speaker 2:And so I can. I can imagine with and I've seen this in my own work when there's clinical recommendations, some of our folks aren't going to want to, but they're not interested, sometimes, right, because of a lot of those barriers. Sometimes it's transportation access, the way you're made to feel getting care. So, regardless of recommendations, some people are like no thanks, why would I want to take any part in that?
Speaker 3:Well, that's exactly right. And you also have to consider one of the things I love about what doing the public health and qualitative work is the ethnographic piece. You have to look at the totality of how people are coming to a thing, in this instance we. The recommendations might be to have you know what is it? Three to four prenatal visits. You have to take off work and, some instances, people. If you don't go to work, you don't get paid that day. If you're in a maternity desert and you have to travel some distance, that's a cost in time, it's a cost in transportation, it's a cost in parking, it's a cost once you get there.
Speaker 2:And likely you're going to sit in the waiting room for upwards of half an hour an hour two hours yeah.
Speaker 3:Heaven forbid, you've got other kids like. There's a lot of other dynamics at play, and so think about the decision making process of, you know, a woman or birthing person that has to weigh. Okay, is this visit really worth the sacrifice that I'm going to have to make just to get there, and I have to do this multiple times? Right, are we really considering that? So the social needs aspect of it is critical to consider and I will also note I believe yesterday ACOG released a new set of recommendations to incorporate social needs in the prenatal I've been hearing a bit about that and all the midwives in my life are like ding, ding, ding, like yep, that's the midwifery model of care, that's what we do?
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly. So more of that, but more of that across the continuum. So another cool feature that came out of that body of work, too, was a state-by-state analysis of where we are as a country in postpartum care when it relates to mental health, postpartum mental health, access to much needed information via perinatal health workers, and that means can women get the answers to their questions about lactation, around breastfeeding supports, around things that are happening with their body, and are they able to access that information through OBGYNs, midwives, community health workers, doulas how can we make those resources more available to them more readily? Coverage for said services, whether regardless if they're on Medicaid or their employer insurance or some other mechanism. And support for loss and late stage pregnancy loss, and we heard a lot of that in our listening how they really just didn't feel supported by the system and in some instances by their employers, to be able to take the time that they need for bereavement. They're still in their postpartum body, even though they did not bring home baby. But the most heartbreaking piece of that is they were not afforded the same benefits in postpartum as if they had brought a baby home, and so there's a lot One blow on top of another Exactly, and so there's a lot of work to do in that space, and so that was one of the biggest highlights that we wanted to bring in that state by state analysis.
Speaker 3:It's not talked enough about, and that's a support for women that experience loss. So two really cool items, resources that I encourage your viewers to check out for those that are really into the advocacy space. Call on your local leaders to do better about that. One of the biggest findings we saw a lot in that, but people that live in the South really have it a lot harder than other parts of the country. Granted, all states need to do better in this space. The South in particular has, and it tracks with some of the morbidity and mortality rates that we are seeing. It tracks with the states that have not expanded Medicaid. It tracks with the states that have the biggest maternity deserts. It tracks with the highest level of postpartum depression right. So there's some work, some work we've got to do in the South.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I lived and worked in the South for several years, and what a difference. As I came from the West, in some regards I felt like I went back in time. I'm like, oh wow, we're doing this or we're not doing that. My eyes were opened, incredibly, too. There were some things that were better, honestly, but most things were not so very interesting. All right, so tell us a little bit about this 100-week project. In a perfect scenario, if we have a pregnant person, what does that look like?
Speaker 3:to do is and the two products I just outlined is really kind of like a landscape analysis right that you can get into, latch on to hopefully you resonate with various parts of it and it's really kind of informative in nature for you to kind of see where things are. Like I said, it's by no means exhaustive, but in an area where we are losing access to data regularly based on this new administration and a deprioritization of women and women's health Very difficult to track.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yep, it was already a call to action to do better around data collection and in the process of that we are. We've lost PRAMS, which is a huge, huge, publicly available data set that gives us access to the things that we need to know about. Because my mantra is you can't fix what you can't what you don't measure Right. You need to be aware of it, all about it. How are you supposed to fix the thing?
Speaker 3:Yet in the background, women are suffering all across the country with very common things right. So there's a ton of resources that we have on this 100 week site that we encourage folks to engage with, whether it be from the policy side of things, the state of Medicaid, what employers can do better small businesses, large corporations, employers have a huge role, because, while 40% of births happen on Medicaid, which is a lot there's a fight we'll have there, but there's a lot that employers can do, especially in the postpartum space, to create better postpartum experiences. We heard a lot about the stress that women go through having to return to work too early. There's employers that are doing some great things right. In some countries people get half a year off. We're doing good in this country if we get three months off, but the reality is some get six weeks right.
Speaker 2:Dr. I just yesterday worked with a nurse. She was a nurse at a children's hospital. She got eight weeks Dr.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not enough. So I think it was great that Medicaid expanded their coverage to 12 months. We can still do more Having like parental leave not just maternally but parental leave, because part of the work that I probably don't talk enough about is we talk to partners of women too in this and they have concerns, they have challenges with partners, you know, with their mental health. Heaven forbid there was a loss there. You know, men process things differently. They process things differently. So paternity leave is also critical.
Speaker 2:I've been surprised in the work like how many men suffer from postpartum depression of some kind. Yeah, Don't talk about that at all.
Speaker 3:So that was an element. We've got some you know information on our site on on on on some of that too, and so there's so many different areas to plug in on this site. I think it depends on, like, what you're good at, what I always tell people, what can people do or where do we start with. Everybody doesn't have to work on everything, but if you're a person to you know, engage in your local, with your local officials, and require some accountability for them to pass policies that better support and favor women throughout their pregnancy journey, but particularly in the postpartum period, advocate for that. Talk to your employers about plans that and support systems that they have in place or, you know, put some pressure on them to say, hey, what do you have in place or can you put something in place to better support us? We've got some information to show that the attention is better, the retention is better, the investment in the company is better, so it's a better benefit when employers invest in women in their postpartum.
Speaker 2:You get some loyalty back from that investment.
Speaker 3:Yep. Find that community of people that you feel safe with. It doesn't do a lot of mom shaming and you can actually open up and share and compare notes so that you don't have to go it alone. One of the biggest things we heard from our listening was the community that the women had just to talk and hear that they were not by themselves and not feeling like they had to go it alone and feel isolated in their journey. So there's a lot of different areas and ways that people can plug in and tackle this. I'm a firm believer that we can fix this problem in this country. But let's be honest, the current state of affairs is a reflection of how we value women in this country. Right Got to do better.
Speaker 2:We have to hold the powers of being accountable, absolutely okay, um, so tell me a little bit about what a an ideal. Somebody gets pregnant, has a baby um, there's pretty standard pieces of care in place for that, whether people have access to them or take advantage of them or not. Afterwards we have oftentimes a six-week visit. So many things can happen in six weeks. Right, that we've missed, and then we have a lot of time after that. Tell us a little bit about what an ideal scenario for postpartum care looks like. Feels like who are the players there, what expertises are coming in, and how and where are they being accessed?
Speaker 3:Yes, that's a lot it is.
Speaker 3:So one thing I am reminded of is everybody doesn't need the same things at the same time. There are some things that are pretty standard. That one-time, six-week check-in is absolutely not enough, right? I would argue as many prenatal visits need to happen as postnatal you know postpartum visits, right, but they need to be accessible. If you're asking for a woman or birthing person to come back to work at six weeks and then they have to make all these prenatal appointments you have a new baby, you might have other, you know children at home you've got to it still becomes a logistical thing. How can you do that? Can we figure out like different combinations of care plans where you've got your postpartum visit? It's like a one-stop shop. You might have childcare so that you can focus on that visit. You might have a lactation consultant come in. You might have access to dual services. You've got time to get your questions answered. We need to make it easier, but we need to make it affordable too, right?
Speaker 3:I think one of the most ideal things is you don't have to do the extra work to find the resources that are needed if you have questions that need to be answered. You've got a community health worker. You've got a doula, you can, you know, get your midwife on the phone. You can get your ob-gyn on the phone if you need to, but it's sounding like everything is so saturated, so swamped and everybody is, like you know, head spinning trying to stay afloat. How can we even that out?
Speaker 3:Well, we can cover more of these services through private insurance, through Medicaid, right, let's start there, because a number of times, yes, women want these things if they are aware of them. So there's an education component on what lactation consultants are, what doulas do and the benefits of them. But then they have to be covered and made readily available so they don't have to do the extra work and they actually leverage those. And I think you know this, the health outcomes when you have a doula present are significantly better than when you don't. Right, so that, I think, would be ideal. And having that proper time after baby, having that support from your employer to be able to take the time that you need to heal Heaven forbid, you had a cesarean section, right? Women are having so many more.
Speaker 2:Yep, what do you know? A current percentage of cesarean rates for black women, you would ask me that I have? I have a couple like ideas from a couple states, but I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think it. Yeah, I think it varies by state. I'm not sure what the aggregate across the US, I just know it's higher, for it is.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep, absolutely startlingly higher usually yes, something about 39% sticks out. Y'all don't quote me on that, but it's. It's up there. We know it's too high, yeah, up there. And so there's a lot of implications that come with that, right. And so just having the support to be able to heal, like I said, the support after pregnancy loss, a number of miscarriages go, not talked about, not talked about, right, more discussion and support around the loss of a child, and you know all of the elements that happen in the postpartum period around that are critical. So who to tap into on those?
Speaker 3:Again, the same ones calling on our legislatures to do better and have a priority one, you know, having the infrastructure for it. What can employers do? What can our communities do? How can we make resources more readily available? I'm reminded of a program in rural South Carolina and I'm partial because I went to school there but really got to know family solutions and there's other organizations that have this home visits model, right, but they follow the woman all the way through their pregnancy up to two years after they've had their baby. They've got trained community health workers, trained doulas. They make house calls, they bring supplies, they bring diapers, they bring car seats, like whatever it is that they need and they use community businesses and resources to pull that together and to be able to go out and deliver those services. They have not lost a mother yet.
Speaker 2:Wow, so that's very much a team effort in that community.
Speaker 3:It completely is, and that's what I mean. Like everybody doesn't need everything at the same time, but make it available for when they do. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. The challenge, though, is that they are heavily reliant on federal funds. If you're tracking the news, we know where that's standing now, and it's not just you know that organization. It's happening all across the country when federal dollars are at threat.
Speaker 2:We already at a dire you know Right, we're just barely making it as it is.
Speaker 3:Take the federal funding out of it, we're really going to have to go back to grassroots Right. And so another something folks can do donate to these community organizations that are trying to meet the needs of women in their communities in real time, so kind of a call to step up right for anyone and everyone where you stand to be able to step up.
Speaker 2:Okay, speak to me a little bit about. I am a firm believer in home visits, especially postpartum. I hate, you know, requiring or requesting someone to pack up their baby and make the transportation. But I know also how can we address because some people, like, are not comfortable. That's also not a comfortable setting. Sometimes Somebody's coming into my home. They're taking notes, they're watching me, they're what are they doing here? So how do we address that? Like with community health workers, postpartum doulas, lactation how can we address that to make it more comfortable for for home visits to occur?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a tough one and we did hear that. We heard that exchange like, oh well, I don't want somebody coming to my house and that again goes back to I know for black women it goes back to mistrust. Somebody coming to my house and that again goes back to I know for Black women it goes back to mistrust.
Speaker 3:Distrust absolutely Also looking for any excuse to go report back something that they saw and they're going to take their children away. That's the fear, and so, as a result of that, they're not open to getting the resources that are available to them to help. And so is there and I don't have the perfect solution to this, but this is where I think birthing centers and community centers, like community, is going to be the key player in this. So, okay, you don't want a home visit? Well, where do you feel comfortable going? Right, let's ask and find out where do you feel like, where can are you able to do on a regular, consistent basis? Do you have someone you can leave your child with to be able to come to get these resources for an hour? Okay, we'll be right up the street over here from such and such time and such time, and we start hours because people have to work.
Speaker 2:Have jobs, it needs to be sometimes evening appointments. Yeah Right.
Speaker 3:Everything can't happen between eight and five when everybody works between eight and five, right? So, thinking outside the box, well, you know, we'll be here from you know six to nine and then again from six to nine pm, so that you can get what you need, just not thinking in the traditional you know way. Um, could be one way, but my biggest thing is to ask people what they can do and meet them where they are. And that might look different for different communities and so programs need to be flexible.
Speaker 2:Right like I love what you said. Think outside the box. Are you familiar with usazi village in kansas city, missouri? I am not.
Speaker 3:You just look about Mamatona Village in DC.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, look, look up Usazi Village in Kansas City. It's. It's been started, I think it was at 2013 or 2008. And I've done extensive work with them over a few years. An amazing model of care, which now is a clinic um, with culturally congruent providers of all kinds and they can go there for um. There's child care, there's childbirth classes, they have a doula program, um. So, yeah, check that out. That's a model that might be worth looking at because it sounds like it can meet in that community, within that community can meet, and took years to build right, like it took a lot of brick upon brick, they figuring things out and building things there.
Speaker 3:So I think too. One thing I've definitely heard is to your point, it takes time and it takes resources, but the more one-stop shop opportunities that there are, I think one model from like breast cancer screening is mobile units. Yes, access, access in a station place. You come to that at a certain amount of time. Go to the people yes, it takes resources, yep.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Wow. So I can see within, as I my brain is just going like within this model, taking time within a client experience. Right, if we're looking at 100 weeks and I have a question for you about that in just a moment but during the over the course of a pregnancy, building trust within a system so that by the time we are postpartum, you may feel comfortable with this community health worker or this doula that you've come to know, you've learned from them, you've shared with them, they've shared with you. Then you're like okay, yeah, I'm cool with you doing a home visit, go ahead and come on to my house. So, taking time to build a trust, that is critical.
Speaker 3:And cultural congruency is also key. Heard it throughout when you have someone that you can relate to and can understand and you feel like you are not being judged.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:That is critical across the continuum, right. Adherence to visits and screenings and clinical recommendations are much more likely. But I always say we talk about having more, you know, culturally congruent doctors that can meet women where they are. That requires another systemic adjustment for how we are training those culturally congruent providers, right. So there's, there's resistance there. Again, the backdrop of how we are operating in life right now looks very different. So it's not like you can just turn out a bunch of black OBGYNs in a month, right. You can't turn out black midwives, you cannot turn out doulas just by snapping your fingers and you have to pay people for their time, right. So we have to kind of reimagine and take down some of the barriers to making that happen. Again, that goes back to how much do you prioritize the health and well-being of women in this country and their families to be able to reverse and change and think creatively about how these things are, how people are trained, how they are paid and the models of care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so some of the solutions we set into action today may come to fruition five years, 10 years, 15 years down the road, especially seeking providers right Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Which is why we say when you go to our 100 website, we say better postpartum care by 2030. That's five years from now. We've got five years to figure it out. How can we put a, how can we make our mark in doing better by women in a postpartum period by 2030? The next five years.
Speaker 2:So I have a question about the hundred years. Sorry, hundred weeks, hundred years feels like it, sometimes hundred weeks. So in my experience and some research I've done, it feels difficult to get people engaging prenatally preconception. Like people like, how do you get folks, any people, to listen? It's like, hey, you're thinking of getting pregnant. Here's some information, here's some. Why don't you think about these things for both partners, right? How do you capture folks there? A lot of times, like we're further downstream, sometimes way too far downstream, before, um, like intention starts taking over, like oh yeah, we need to look into this. So how, how, what have you found? Are some ways to engage people? Preconception? That's hard, it is hard.
Speaker 3:People are coming. They're they're coming in preconception from a couple of ways the pregnancy is intended, or they have had a wealth of fertility issues. Okay, um, right, that can be an up and down crazy experience in and of itself. If you've been trying, actively trying to conceive, if you've had a loss previously, right, there's some trepidation and fear for entering into it again. Then there's the I'm not sure if I want to be pregnant right now. Can we consider that intended or unintended? I'm a little iffy. And then there's like, a lot of social dynamics happening in the background. There's cultural dynamics happening in the background. There's partner relationship dynamics happening in the background. There's and if the pregnancy is unintended that's even more so there's a level of denial that is happening Right, right, stories um, a woman that didn't go see a doctor till she was six months, you know, pregnant, which happens.
Speaker 3:So we have to call things out, like, like, what's happening. Yes, this is what's supposed to happen, this is the recommendation, but the reality of what people are thinking and feeling. And there's the affordability of health care, right, large for everybody. It's the number one pain point of people across the country. And so now you're like, oh, I can't afford health care for myself, and now there's this human that I'm going to have to consider and think about. Can Can I really afford my life and theirs? This world is crazy. This healthcare system is crazy. How am I going to navigate this? I don't know where to start, and so this is my social behavioral scientist piece kicking in. When people have too many things to try to solve for they shrink back Right, they're going to shut down something, something and really like we can pretend we would.
Speaker 2:It would be great if pregnancy was everyone's main priority for all pregnant people, but it's not right. They're like I am. I say like there's so many other layers, first right, relationship issues and work issues, and and sometimes the pregnancy is very much put on the back burner for sometimes a long time. So there's other other issues we need to kind of look at in creating that safe space of care. That's right and it's outside.
Speaker 3:It's often out I'm not going to say often. Outside there's a lot of dynamics as it relates to the healthcare system. But then outside, in the social environment, women are having babies later in life. They're focusing on their careers. They're thinking about well, how is this going to hamper my career, or is it like what kind of support am I going to have? I'm up for this promotion, but now I'm pregnant. How are they going? How are my peers going to view me Like, there's okay, now I need to keep it quiet.
Speaker 2:I'm not excited about this, I'm not. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't even know if I want kids. We have to really think about what is in the psyche of people, versus assuming that they are going to do something because you say they are supposed to Right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Interesting. Okay, all right, I know we're coming a little close on time, so, if you can share, I have a couple of questions, if that's all right, for takeaways from your work. What are, like, the top three? You talked about affordability, maybe that's one of them. What are the top three pain points, the top three things people are needing, wanting, aching for whatever that might be, and there's, as you heard, stories. What are the top three um things to address that need addressing? Yeah, it's a hard question. I'm so sorry, but you have great answers.
Speaker 3:Great discussion, cover more stuff, affordability. Affordability Because if they have to pay for out of pocket, you're already bringing a new life into this world. The likelihood of a woman or pregnant person spending that money on themselves and their health and well-being compared to their new baby in their family is less likely. So the more we can cover on either Medicaid or employer sponsored insurance and the like, the better. Right, we definitely have to meet people where they are. We talked about culturally congruent providers.
Speaker 3:That's critical to building trust. When trust is built, you get more engagement and you get better outcomes. That is absolutely, absolutely key. There's some great examples out there, but we have to meet people where we are and we alluded to all of this in our conversation. But there is a return on investment when you invest in your people, absolutely and just the health and well-being of your workplace and society at large workplace and society at large. So employers I think we will move the needle a lot if we get employers to reimagine their benefit plans to be able to incorporate and make more provisions for women and men in the workplace paternity care and new support around family.
Speaker 2:I work with a small healthcare plan company and it's interesting, like it's how much of what they want and what I want, like as a doula, is congruent. It's the same they as we met with them and they're and they're working with different products, like there's so many health plan products available out there. They're looking at a certain doula program that they're incorporating as a benefit, which is amazing. But they had this year we are what are we? In April They've had four NICU babies, right, and and, and it's a smaller, it's a smaller health plan, but they're like those are killing us, those NICU babies millions of dollars.
Speaker 2:And so this health care plan, like how can we prevent this? What can we do? So they have a lot of the same objectives that I do as a doula. And then we have the hospital system, the medical care system in the middle, which is so interesting because we have a lot of these the insurers, the policy providers and holders, and the doulas, the lactation consultants, have so many of the same objectives, which is pretty fascinating to me. So, I think, also working together with them and, yes, employers I love that piece of employers and a lot of times that's going to be again awareness, education, helping employers be aware of what is available and why the ROI, the return on investment, is going to be huge. I mean, I mean it's all about money for them. Honestly, it's so much about money as it comes down to why they're doing what they're doing and when they understand big picture, like, oh, for X amount of dollars, which is so much less than a NICU stay, let's address lactation or pregnancy care or that support during Okay, very fascinating.
Speaker 3:All of these resources can be found. We have some extensive work on what employers can do on our site, so go to our website.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, and that will be in our show notes. That link is in our show notes, all right, I think. One more question that I have for you, if that's okay, you got on time. Yeah, okay, solutions what are some top? We've also touched on this, but let's tie it up and like what are some good solutions? And you're talking in our audience here. We have a lot of pregnant people right, or people who support them, but I think every single person has the ability, an obligation, responsibility to tweak the system in some small way. We can't come in and make major, sweeping changes very quickly, but we can do the under the under, just tweak the underbelly of a system. So what are some solutions that people can walk away today, whether they're a pregnant person, whether they're a doula, a lactation consultant, because we have a pretty broad audience there. What can we do?
Speaker 3:Let's start having more conversations about this one. I think education and awareness is critical. Find your community of people. I am a believer of power in numbers and so, as I said earlier in the conversation, if you are a person that wears an advocacy hat, I'm in this space. I'm on this energy to start to hold our local leaders, our state leaders, our federal leaders accountable. Get on the phone, and I'm saying this because we have heard our senators, our representatives. They're tracking the phone calls and the conversations and what we're calling them about. Burn up those phone lines.
Speaker 3:What are you doing to protect women in this country? What are you doing to protect our families? What are you doing to have things in place such that we are not dying at such alarming rates? Lactation consultants, doulas, midwives, um lactation consultants, doulas, midwives. Education is key. Um, I understand, but was also saddened by the number of women that did not know the difference between what a midwife, a midwife and a doula does. It's crazy, yeah, a lot. And or, if they did, they have this notion of what they're do what they do and it's not really for me and not really understanding the benefits of having those supports outside of your OBGYN. Let's face it the workforce is tapped. The clinician workforce is tapped. They're spread really thin. Absolutely. I feel like a lot of questions that women and birthing people have. They want to hear from their OBGYN. Let's also be realistic. They can't be on the phone with everybody answering all their questions.
Speaker 3:They're not accessible and they're not Right. And so how can we get find the other community health workers in your area? Are there doulas that people can recommend? Are there local level people that you can engage with? Are there, and I'm so much more work to put on doulas and community health workers, but can there be some more synergy in the education and availability and awareness of who is there and, like I said, building your community?
Speaker 3:I had a conversation the other day about like the online groups and in and connecting, and while that is great, because there's a lot of women that don't want to reach out for help and feeling like they're going it alone, this is where the awareness and education is key.
Speaker 3:But let's let's be be our sister's keeper in terms of creating safe spaces for women to ask questions and not feel shamed because they're asking those questions or seeking help or, you know, wanting to know more about a thing. There's a lot of that happening, but we have to kind of band together in this fight on maternal health because at the rate we're going, we are not getting a lot of help and support. But if we band together and demand more and better, we can actually move the needle on this, but it's going to take a lot of different layers, a lot of different actions getting on the phone with our state, local and federal leaders banding together in communities awareness and education between midwives and doulas, community health workers around what's available, lactation consultants, and making sure that when we are calling those senators, making sure that we get those services covered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awesome, awesome, awesome, okay, yeah, awesome, awesome, awesome. Okay, you've prompted so many more conversations, but I love what we've talked about today, so tell us the website people can go to.
Speaker 3:We'll link it in our show notes as well. Again, it's 100, the number, 100 weeks, dot, united states of care, dot, org. And when you go there you find everything. You find the journey map, you find the state of postpartum care um, you find our vision for postpartum care and there's a number of resources, including the ones that I highlighted about employer supports, um policy landscapes and the like. And so get into it. We'd love your feedback, we'd love your ideas. I'm always constantly learning and listening to other conversations in this space and it's going to take all of our ideas Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's a big problem, so it's going to take a lot of solutions. Perfect, I love the work you're doing. It just yeah, it's resonates so much and it's so needed. It's so needed across the board and I I'm excited to go look at that state map. That's going to be pretty fascinating. There's a call to action right there.
Speaker 3:You've got right.
Speaker 2:Yep, and I would imagine the South is struggling, like that's what I noticed living there and working there was it was different. So, okay, dr Venice, oh, we're so glad that you could be with us today, appreciate your expertise and your dedication to this work. It's so vitally important. We appreciate that so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So we're going to wrap it up today for the ordinary dealer podcast. Thank you so much for being with us today and, as I always end every episode, this resonated a lot today like go out and make a human connection, whether that's online, in person, eye contact, a touch of a hand. Please make a human connection to someone else. It'll help your day and help theirs as well. Thanks for being with us and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Ordinary Doula podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning. Episode credits will be in the show notes Tune in next time as we continue to explore the many aspects of giving birth you.