Tranquil Topics

Water the Flowers, Not the Weeds: Reclaiming Joy in Friendship

• Stephanie Graham • Season 1 • Episode 16

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What happens when your entire friend group turns against you? Anna returns to share her profound journey through adult bullying, friendship dissolution, and ultimately—renewal and growth. This deeply personal conversation explores the painful reality of social ostracism that many experience but few discuss openly.

Anna vulnerably recounts being systematically excluded from her social circle—uninvited from gatherings, ignored in public spaces, and experiencing what she calls "the eyes right treatment" where former friends would rather stare at walls than acknowledge her presence. Through this crisis, she gained three transformative insights discussed in this episode that completely reshaped her understanding of friendship.

Using a beautiful garden metaphor that will stay with you long after listening, Anna describes how she discovered her seemingly lush friendship garden was mostly barren with "just a few daffodils poking up." Rather than despairing, she redirected her energy toward nurturing these authentic connections, creating space for new growth. "Because the white noise of all the substandard friendships had gone, I could really have time to nurture and water these daffodils," she explains.

The conversation evolves into a masterclass on friendship dynamics—exploring active versus passive relationships, the essential "50/50 energy" exchange of healthy connections, and why we're drawn to certain people during different life stages. Most powerfully, Anna articulates why victims of social rejection shouldn't internalise shame: "When people are horrible to you, it's nothing to do with you, it's really about them."

Whether you're currently navigating friendship difficulties, healing from past rejection, or simply seeking to cultivate more authentic connections, this episode offers practical wisdom through Anna's three rules friendship philosophy. As Anna beautifully summarises, the key to friendship fulfillment is simple yet profound: "Water the flowers, not the weeds."

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Steph:

Hello, welcome back to Tranquil Topics. I'm your host, Steph and today we are joined by Anna. Anna has been on the podcast previously and spoke about wild swimming. She is a friend of the podcast and she's back today to speak about friendship and share her experiences. Welcome to the podcast, Anna.

Anna:

Hi.

Steph:

So can you tell us a little bit about what happened for you and how that's brought you here today to talk about friendship?

Anna:

So I feel like, actually, this ultimately ends up in a really positive space. But, like with all really solid good journeys, it starts from a place of crisis, and I found myself in a place where I had to look out for a friend. I made a split second decision on whether I I stuck my neck out and told some information to what was supposed to be my best friend at the time about something and, um, she chose not to believe me. And then, in this situation, um, she, she and others went on this real mob mentality where I was completely othered and my husband was completely othered and, uh, and I was subject to adult bullying. And I feel really clear that I have to use the word adult bullying because, um, if I use the word bullying, it sort of sounds trivial, it sounds sort of, uh, like high school, but actually it was bullying. And I was on a podcast a couple, about two years ago and I spoke about it and that podcast went out and the amount of friends, um, friends of friends that messaged me saying I really enjoyed the podcast. Something similar happened to me, I think, and so, because I had so many different people talk about it to me, I was like, actually, I think there is a lot more adult bullying going on that's being platformed and that is because we associate bullying with school or work and we don't actually associate it, as adults, across any other sections.

Anna:

And if you look at the definition of bullying, it isn't just like throwing stones at someone and stealing their their lunch money. It is actually ostracizing people, leaving people out. And actually to go to somebody and leave people out is one of the cruelest things you can do, and and and that harks back to when we used to live in tribes and a bit like you know your, you know how our fight or flight is to do with if we see a lion in the woods, with all that sort of stuff. The one of the reasons why it feels so painful and dangerous and stressful to be ostracized and left out is because when we all lived in tribes, if you were not in with the tribe, your survival chances would absolutely plummet. So it is one of the most painful things you can do to somebody is to purposefully leave them out, and I was.

Anna:

I will list a few things so people really understand what it is, the Christmas dinners I just wasn't invited to, even though overwhelmingly everyone at the Christmas dinner was nothing to do with the disagreement, turned away at house parties, even though nobody at that house party was anything to do with the disagreement. We have rectangular rooms where women would walk past me and they would give me the eyes right treatment, where they would just turn their head abruptly and rather look at the brick wall than look at me. We had people purposefully going to make friendships with members of my family's partners to make sure I was further ostracized and felt really on my own and it just continued. And it continued for months and it was really awful.

Anna:

But I went through a process of reflection and healing and changing and I find myself in this really strong place where I have really good friendships and friendships aren't a source of did I say something wrong or questioning myself. My friendships are an absolute source of joy and and it's taken to be bullied as an adult to really sort of see what is a good friend. And I think because so many other people messaged me last time and then you were like I'd like to I you obviously heard that podcast that time and you were like I want to talk about this for this because this is important.

Anna:

And I was like, yeah, all right, okay, because it's important. We keep talking about it because there seems to be a lot of shame from victims who are bullied and actually they've got nothing to be ashamed about. So I don't really want to go into the horrible stuff because it, firstly, I can't remember it properly and, secondly, that's not who we are. You know, this is about sort of finding the tranquility about things and there were three things that I was told. I was told lots of different things. Actually, I had some really bad advice, but I had some really good advice and there were three things that I picked out and I really held on to, and the first one was I rang my friend. I was very upset. I've been, I've been othered and this is the word I will use a lot. I've been othered in a really brutal way, in quite a public way, and I was really upset and so I got up and I started walking. And I just started walking, I put on a coat it's like seven o'clock in the morning I start walking, I ring my friend. I speak to her, I end up 15 kilometers later. By the way, I have to ring someone to get me to come pick me up 15 kilometers later. That's how upset I was. I walked it out, um, but uh, and I said, I told her what happened. I said this has nothing to do with them. They've turned us away from this. I don't understand what's going on. I was in this real catastrophizing spiral of it must be me. I've got no mates and she just was, are they your friends, or are they people you go drinking with? And I was like whoa, that is a profound question to ask. And it made me stop and I was like, actually, you're right, they're not my friends, they're people I've, they've, they'll drink with anyone, they'll have a glass of wine with anyone. So, yeah, I thought we were friends and we'd meet at the pub every couple of weeks for a glass of wine and a chat and a giggle. But you're right, they'll do that with anyone. And to see how quickly they turned on something that was nothing to do with them and how happy they were to be part of a mob mentality and other us and you know we're talking like blanking us on the street. You know, I was right, that's right, and so that was the first thing I did. I started then looking at all my friendships and I was like are they someone I have the same value set with? Are they someone I share a hobby with, or are they someone I just see out drinking and dancing? Well, that changes the perspective and things. And as soon as I did that, I then could sounds really clinical but recategorize people like is that a loss? Because actually, were they were, are they actually my friend? Well, they're probably not. There was someone I go drinking with and that makes a massive difference. So that was the first thing I really took on board.

Anna:

The second thing I took on board was from my sister and she'd been reading a book called Wintering and I was ringing out. I'm upset. I've been treated like this by people. This has happened, you know. I feel really lonely, I feel really hurt, I feel really vulnerable. I feel I really don't understand why I've been treated like this, when, when I feel like all I was doing was looking out for my friend and she just was like you need to do some social wintering, what's that? Just this book? And she said are you hanging out with people who fill your stores? Who fill you up. So when you leave, you're not questioning things, you just feel full. Oh, that's another, it's another good thing to think about. So so I I really took that on board, because there's sometimes you do go out with someone and you come away and you feel a bit drained, don't you? You know, or you feel like on edge, or you know you're going into a social situation and you feel on edge and you're like, actually, I shouldn't be feeling like that about my friends, yeah, and it shouldn't really matter about what I'm wearing or you know what time we get there or what. It should just be easy, because they're your friends, they're going to fill you up and obviously, in turn, you hopefully fill them up as well. So I really took that on board and that was another sort of recategorizing of people, you know. And then I was lucky enough to have the money at the time to go see a counsellor, have some talking therapies, and I explained to the counsellor, this is the sort of friend I perceive myself to be. I'm the person that organises the nights out. I see a free event. I'll get good tickets. If it's your birthday, I will collect the money and commission you something bespoke and special for you. I will be the first person to text. I will randomly text you goodnight because I think you might be on your own and sometimes it's just nice to have that. I will see something I like in a gift shop. I'll send you letters. You know, if you're someone that I know is going through a tough time, I'll send flowers. You know, I I knew. No, I am that person and she just said to me what is it that makes you think you have to behave like that in order to receive a standard friendship. Why can't they just be your friend for just you, not the stuff you do for just you? That session was deep. That would hit me really hard and I was like god, why is my self-esteem so rock bottom that I feel I have to put in all the energy and all the effort and all the logistics in order to have this friendship? That's not right. So they were the three, three things that I really took to heart and really enlisted to and embedded as like sort of going forward and going forward I had to really assess and I looked on and I'm gonna use a lot of gardening analogies now.

Anna:

I looked at my garden of friendships, which had always been, I thought, a really full, beautiful, wonderful place to be, and it was barren. I had a few daffodils poking up and everything else just wasn't there. And I was like God, I thought I had all these friends and I don't. I've only got a few friends. And and it was really sad but I thought, right, well, I've got mate, I've got a few friends. Some people don't even have that. So because the white noise of all the substandard friendships and all the toxic friendships and all the nonsense and all the drinking buddies, but not actually your friend friendships had all gone.

Anna:

I could really have time, actual literal time, in my week because there was less people in my life, but time in my soul, space in my brain, to really nurture and water these daffodils in my friendship garden and that has been an absolute joy because I had those really good friends and all I've done is strengthen that friendship and really appreciated it and it's been an amazing improvement of the friendship that was there. But just like I've got more time for them, I'm more present for them, I'm more of an active listener because I I actually have now less people but better people and I and I find that really brilliant, I'm really pleased about that. So that is where I feel like I'm at now, um, and and then like because, because it's two years since I did so, when I did the first podcast, it was 12 months after it all happened. Now, two years from that process, like three years from it all happened, so I actually feel like in an even more zen place, like I almost feel like grateful that I was treated so badly. So I am now equipped with sort of these skills of navigating social circles, um and social events and social situations.

Anna:

Because, like, if you, if you have a garden which has got weeds and flowers in it and you're not sure which is which, it's really hard to know which is your decent friend, it's really hard to know which is your invasive weed. It's you know, it's really hard. If you have a garden which is just beautiful flowers that you have nurtured and looked after, and then a weed pops up, it's so easy to see that you're then like, well, this is painful, but I water my flowers, I don't water my weeds. And so then you just, and obviously, as life goes on and uh, you know, we all get older, we all evolve, we become increasingly our authentic selves and you and people have changed, like kids, caring, responsibilities, all that.

Anna:

You can't expect you always to have the same friendships, but when one turns into a weed, it's now for me a lot easier to recognize and I'm really pleased that I'm in that place. So they're the, that's where I'm at now. And if, if me, if me could go back to me now, if currently 2025 me could go back to I don't know where's three years ago, I can't do that math 2022 me, 2022 me and just talk to me and be like you need to stop being panicking, it's going to be fine. I would do that in a heartbeat and there's, there's three things that I would say to past me, and I think firstly is be sad. Don't be ashamed, just be sad. This is nothing to do with you, this is to do, this is to do with them. So you're allowed to be sad and I think at the time I was embarrassed and I was ashamed, so I was like, oh yeah, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And like three months I was yeah, it's still right, you know, whatever, you know, because I did good and I think actually I was really, really struggling and I think I was really struggling for like easily 10 months, grieving these friendships and like I was grieving a lot of friendships, like it had been really brutal and actually I should have just allowed myself to be sad, because you're allowed to be sad and grieve friendships, because nobody has a choice on whether they're sad or not mm-hmm and nobody has a choice on how long grief takes. So I should have just given myself permission and not try to push it down and force it away. So that is the one thing I would say to myself.

Anna:

This the second thing I would say to myself is that I'd be like look, Anna, in a couple of years time going forward, all your mates are going to have 50- 50 energy where you give 50 and they give 50%. And it's so lovely and it's really nice and everything about it is joyful. Even when it's even when life hits and you've got to be there for each other, the friendship still brings joy because it's a 50-50 friendship and not a service or a duty or an obligation, and and I think that's really that would be really good to hear.

Anna:

And then I think I said it before, like water the flowers, not the weeds, if you see, as soon as you see something starting to become toxic, because people do change, then you you know and the older I get, when people are horrible to you and you know, and people are routinely in your life going to be horrible to you, I now realize it's nothing to do with me, it's really about them. You know, if you're there tracking along your life, not how many times you've been in a situation. Why is that happened to me? Why have they said that? Why have they decided to be like that with me?

Anna:

If you're in that situation that it's actually nothing to do with you, it's to do with how unhappy they are. And if you are your authentic self and you can always look at yourself in the mirror at every point through any social situation, then really it's to do with how unhappy they are and they just are trying desperately to make themselves feel better and you're collateral and you just have to, y ou have to think that there's actually nothing to do with me. So that's where I feel like I'm at and I feel like that's actually quite a tranquil place to be, with how I navigate my friendships.

Steph:

Yeah, thank you for sharing all of that because I think, like you said, bullying is very much associated, or can be associated, with children and school. You hear about workplace bullying but, like you rightly say, it's not spoken about as much in terms of just your life and people in it, whether that's family or friends in it, and I think the impact of losing a friendship, and not even just one like yours, was a whole group, wasn't it?

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, a whole, that's the whole friendship group.

Steph:

Yeah, like I want to acknowledge that, because there's times in life where you just feel like what is going on and why is this happening to me? And I think if anybody's listening and they can relate to you and your situation that you was in and how you've come out the other side of it, I really hope it helps them, because when I was, I don't know when it was, when we went for a hot chocolate, but we went for a hot chocolate a few months ago probably, maybe even a year, I don't know.

Anna:

Well, you seem to be having a sad time with people. Not that long after I was having a sad time with people.

Steph:

Was it that long ago?

Anna:

Yeah, it was quite a long time ago, but I think I'd sort of made the pivotal 10 month turn the corner and was able to sort of be like, oh no, I felt like you, by the way, this is now what I now know.

Anna:

10 months on this, this, this, this, this and yeah, and I do, and I really remember going, what happened to you was really, and you and I was like you're being bullied. And and I remember you going, oh yeah, I am being bullied. I was like, yeah, you're being bullied. And it's amazing how sometimes, like so people, people at work, were telling me about something and I've been like you know you're being bullied, don't you? And they're almost shocked like, do you think, yeah, that's what that is. You know, when I do bit of a community work and this woman had this like complete and massive overreaction and I said you've had that overreaction because you're being bullied by that person, do you think, yeah, because you're really calm, rational person. So if you're having these sort of like spikes in emotion and you're coming out panicky or sad or angry because, because you're worried about someone else's reaction, I would say you're actually probably at the wrong end of being bullied, because friends should never make you feel like that.

Steph:

Yeah, and, like you said, about people filling you up. So my mum always refers to people that are either fountains or they're drains and she was like if they're drains, you need to really keep your eyes open around that as to why and like what's going on and focus your attention on the fountain. So you really helped me when I was because I've not had a group friendship. Like my friendships with people are very much individual. I don't have a group. My individual friends actually met each other for the first time on my 30th and it was really weird because I was like you know, you all mean so much to me but you've never met each other before.

Steph:

Um, yeah, so and like my partner Alan, his friendship group is a big group. They've all known each other from school and they've gone through life together. I find that quite rare. I haven't, I can't relate to that. I haven't come across it a lot. But when you said to me, when I confided in you and I basically said you know I've got some really close friends and the friendship has changed, we've drifted, and I was really upset about it, like I don't know what to do. And would you mind just telling the listeners about your view on active and passive friendship.

Anna:

Yeah yeah, I mean. So I think it's worth. It's worth noting that, like, friendships can become cyclical, can't they? You know people are in your orbit and then, before you realise it, 18 months has gone by and you've not seen somebody. But if you message them and say we've not seen each other for 18 months, do you want to hang out? And they go yes, I'm free. Obviously it's adulting, so I'm free on 23rd March at half six for 17 minutes, and they respond I would consider that like an active friendship, but with low frequency. You know, big people are busy. Like you know you've got a friend in London. They're a decent friend, but you know you're not gonna see them the same amount as you see the person that is around the corner and things like that. But there are passive friendships where people just sort of drift out of your life for a bit and they can drift in as long as when they do drift in, they meet your energy with the same energy. Then like, then that's really good. And then, but then people have children or people, I mean, as we're getting older. I mean I'm, I'm of a age, I'm a woman, I'm a middle-class woman of a certain age and you know, um, me and my friends were all starting to be perimenopausal.

Anna:

Some people are having a bad time so they're having to withdraw, and that's fine too, and I would say that they're in a passive phase and that, and it becomes cyclical, um, and that doesn't mean they're not your friend, it just means hashtag, the juggle is real, doesn't it? Um? So I say I've got some friends are in and, and they're friends who are relocating and they've got two neurodiverse kids. I rarely see her. Literally, I would message her and message her and message her. And I messaged her and it got to the third time and I said you don't respond now, mate, you're getting cut loose. You need to start responding. What's going on and you can respond, I'm really busy, I'll message you in a week, but you have to start responding.

Anna:

And then and I don't think a real friend would mind that challenge, because you have to have this 50- 50 and and it cannot be all on one person you know, like I would, I would maybe put a, put a challenge to people listening to the podcast. Have you got some friendships where it's always you? Don't message. See what happens, because in three months' time, if you've not seen them, because you've not sorted it out, they're not your friend. And if you say to them, look, you need to make more effort this can't always be me and they step up, they are your friend. But if they don't, then shed your tears and walk away because those people, they're not worth your time and energy and your time and energy is the most precious commodity. You can never get time back. You can never get energy back.

Anna:

You're going to spend it. Spend it on people wisely. It's really important we do that. We are not getting any less tired, are we? So it's really important that you know when we are choosing our friends, that, um, that friendship really is a good investment. And I've made poor investments, um, and I can enjoy the memories now and things will flash up on social media and I go, that's funny and I can enjoy the memories.

Anna:

But I do have moments where I have flashes of resentment, like I did waste so much time on that person. They were never worth it. I shouldn't, you know, I shouldn't do that because that's not helpful to anyone. But you do have these moments because I am human sort of thing, yeah for sure, so, yeah, so I think active friendship and passive friendship things are cyclical. People drift in, drift out, but as long as that, so I might have a passive friendship that I sometimes text somebody who I went to high school with, who was a wonderful woman, and I just text, just so you know, I sometimes think about you but I don't have time to talk to you. Uh, I think you're brilliant and it's like annual and I've not really spoken to her for four or five years. And then she will drive past, she'll drive past something that reminds her of me and she'll send me a picture of it and I go let's normalize, not really speaking to each other, but knowing we're fond of each other. That's a passive friendship, isn't it? We're not really hanging out like, but it's. You know, I might see her in two years. I'm not even making the promises now. Actually, I might not see her in two years time. I don't know, I'm busy.

Steph:

It might be five.

Anna:

It might be five. It might be when neither of us have young children and we're, like I don't know, in a hospital ward next to each other. Hello, you know, you know. So, yeah, I think I think you're allowed to have active and passive friendships. I also like to sort of sometimes refer of what friendships are what? Who's in your orbit? What orbit are they? You're sat, there's satellite mates and then, like you know where are they? Are they someone that you're seeing a lot?

Anna:

It doesn't mean that your satellite mate that's miles away, that you're only seeing once a year, is any less of a friend, but like we have to be realistic about bits and that. But you'll be able to tell if you, just if you stick with the, a re they a drinking friend or are they a real friend? Do they fill you up and are they meeting your energy with the same energy if you, if you? For me, those three rules have absolutely brilliantly equipped me to to really make sure that my friends are my friends.

Steph:

And you can recategorize your garden at any point.

Anna:

100% and sometimes and I've had it where someone's drifted into a drinking friend. Actually I'm not sure I've got that much in common with you anymore, sorry.

Steph:

Yeah can I just say I love that analogy of the garden because you can really visualize it and like, yeah, I can identify a weed now.

Anna:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steph:

But I don't know if you've um, have you probably heard of Mel Robbins?

Anna:

I don't know, no.

Steph:

Oh, well, Mel Robbins is like a motivational speaker.

Anna:

No, we haven't. Sorry. Sorry.

Steph:

Mel, she spoke of something very similar than what you said then about the timing of friendships in life and how they can change and how, when you're in school, everyone's going through the same phase at the same time, they have the same summers off and you're more likely to be able to build friendships because everything is similar.

Anna:

Yes, I have heard this verse because you've sent me the clip.

Steph:

Yes, yes.

Steph:

And then she goes on to say then you go to university or you're going to work and timings change, friendships, so some will drift off and, like you say, become more passive, some will disappear completely, but other people come into your life then. So everyone's sort of staggered and it can feel uncomfortable because it's different from what you're used to. And then she says, when their energy changes, that can mean if you don't want to drink anymore, but your friends do, or you really want to get into fitness, but your friends can't relate because they're not interested in that or like even different beliefs. She makes a point of things change and, like you say, the ebb and flow, people come in and they they drift off again.

Steph:

And that I remember you saying to me it's not personal.

Anna:

It's not.

Steph:

And it took, it really took the sting out of it for me because I was making it personal to me. I was like same same with you really, like I resented how the friendship had changed and like the things we used to do together. I've got all these fantastic memories. The fantastic memories are enough now, like I'm focusing on the people that are active in my life and I'm not shunning anyone that's passive, like they're more than welcome to flow in and out.

Anna:

Yeah.

Steph:

But I'm not holding on to that hurt and pain and resentment from it and thinking why me like, why has this happened? Because it isn't personal. And Mel says, like the let them theory, let them come, let them go and just allow it.

Anna:

Yeah, so I think there is. I agree with that, but when they come in, they've got to come in with the same energy that you give.

Steph:

Yeah.

Anna:

And I think there's, there is, it's not about being an open door like you can be my friend anytime because you can't you've you know, if you're going to then drift in, then drift in with intent, yeah, and then, but don't b ut if you fade out with intent, I would say that was a stepping back. You see what I mean?

Anna:

Yeah, I would say that was similar to active and passive, but I, I don't think as a rule I had a, really I, as it happens, I seem to, I seem to have known some really horrible people and quite a lot of, and I really didn't know they were that mean. But I again don't think it was about me. I think my lifestyle and my life and my value set were just different and they didn't like what they had, and so then it was easier to other me, like I was out of the group of people that I have not maintained any friendship with afterwards. We're the only one with kids, we're the only one you know, like what we do, how we do it is different and and I think that does make a difference, like you know, perspective on things. If you've got someone with caring responsibilities, your perspective on things is different. And also if, like, if you are someone that has been in in lots of short-term relationships, your perspective on things, i t's different than if you've had a long-term relationship, you know. So I do think there is, t here is, as people get older and change in life, sort of changes for them, or changes for them, but changes them. Then it's okay not to be friends with everyone forever, all the time.

Anna:

And you mentioned about these rare groups of friendship from high school and I do know some people that have these big groups.

Steph:

Do you?

Anna:

And they're always dysfunctional and not all of them like each other and loads of them are friends and they're just very good at being in a group and getting on with it.

Steph:

I see.

Anna:

Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, people have. I also think sometimes people are friends with each other out of habit and I I think that's a dangerous place to be. Really, you should be friends with someone because they fill you up, they greet your energy and you've got things in common with them. You're not just drinking with them, for sure. Yeah, uh, you know, and I do know people that feel obliged and like they're getting stressed and and then there's and I say, if they're out, how should I come and say hi, like oh, no, they won't like that and you like, you go there and they're really funny about you being there, because they sort of see that friendship with their person as their own and their possession and you're like, oh, that's not healthy.

Anna:

No, I don't think that is healthy, and then you're borrowed time for that and there's always a drought. It's always like highs and the lows, and actually a good friendship is quite mundane, isn't it?

Steph:

Yeah.

Anna:

A good friendship's boring because no news is good news, isn't it? Yeah, go and talk about your friends. No, because they're all really nice and never horrible to me, so I've got nothing to say about them. Oh right, okay, that's how it should be, shouldn't it?

Steph:

Yeah, that's funny, maybe I haven't missed out on, because I always think you know when that saying's like the grass is always greener. Like I'm really happy with my friendship group. Now I know some wonderful people but, like I said, I've never had the group and I used to watch um Friends on TV and I always thought like, oh, you know, I'd love that, I'd love like a little group of friends where they all get on and everything. And then you remind yourself like that's a TV programme, that's not real life.

Anna:

And also, if you, apparently on YouTube you can watch it without the canned laughter and they're basically being snide to each other for the 30-minutes each episode, it's you know it's either sarcasm or taking the mick out of each other, fat shaming. Goodness me, they really aren't very nice to each other. They all bonk each other at some point, don't they? They're just, they're not. I mean, I would say Friends is a terrible example of friends, they're awful with each other.

Steph:

I just like the fact that they spoke to each other every day, like they were always checking in, and there was that sense of you have people around you.

Anna:

Yes.

Steph:

And I think when I confided in you and I said, like you know, these friendships are fading and I'm hurt by it, I was looking at the wrong side of it.

Anna:

But also I would say that to have people around you, it's got to be quality over quantity.

Steph:

Yeah.

Anna:

It really does. And actually I find myself in a position now, because I've taken these three rules, I can really apply them. I would say now that I have more friends than I did for my last group that I lost, and it's a little bit bittier, like you know. You say they're not all one homogenous group, but like there are, I've amalgamated some because we all have the same hobby and we've gone off and done something together, or we've decided to go somewhere together, or I've gone, oh, I'm going to this, sent it to all my friends that I'm my singular friends, and then we've all gone to it and they've all met up and hang out. And then sometimes they hang out without me, but it doesn't ever feel like a threat. It feels like it's just nice that they've got their people hanging out. By applying those three rules, I now have, like I have some really, really fun, lovely people in my life. It's abundant with those people. Do I actually lost my train of thought? So I will tell you something, cuz I got distracted by myself and I think this is very telling.

Anna:

I was going for a little walk with one of my wonderful, lovely new friends. I mean so it's been friends for years. But then one of the daffodils I watered, should I say, and we were talking about clothes and stuff and we were talking about buying second-hand and all that stuff. And I said, since I lost that social group, I actually find myself buying way less clothes. And she said that's because you feel way more secure in yourself, you don't feel like you have to compete.

Steph:

That's interesting.

Anna:

And I was like, wow, my friend's so smart, she's had an insight. But I also was like, it's true, I can just turn up in what I want to wear. I used to, it was like that social group was also at a time when I used to have to go to loads of weddings. You know, like in your 30s you have to go to bloody weddings all the time. I hate looking smart, I hate it. Right, it's a real effort for me. And then you'd be like, oh, and they'd be like, let's go somewhere let's look nice and you'd be like, oh God.

Anna:

And I'd be like, oh, let own black clothes. And actually I don't have that nonsense anymore. I don't buy new clothes anymore, but I'm happy to do second hand. I'm happy to wear, enjoy my own clothes. I have because I'm not competing in this ridiculous toxic friendship and and it's a relief, it's actually a relief yeah, I even sleep better.

Anna:

I just didn't realize and and there was times where in the past someone else has been othered and I've not joined in but I've not spoken out. I'm ashamed of that now should have said something, but I now know I was probably nervous for myself. And then, when it was my turn to get turned on, none of them spoke out and I thought, well, yeah, because I didn't speak out, it was just my turn. The difference was is that I wasn't prepared to dilute my value set to get back in with the group. I'd not done anything wrong. I'd still do the same again. So then there was no way of going back, which I'm quite grateful for now.

Steph:

And the only way for you was forward then, wasn't it?

Anna:

The only way for me was forward, um, and I think that, but, like you know, my husband that was a social group, that was also my husband as well. He's lost them as well and I think he would have. His resolve wasn't as anywhere near as strong, he was for the greater good. Wanting to keep the peace was like it's not peace if I feel like shit.

Steph:

Yeah, it would be an outward looking peace, but inside yeah it's turmoil.

Anna:

It's not peace that. Yeah, if I've had to compromise what is right.

Steph:

That's very interesting, that now, with hindsight, that you can identify these patterns of behavior that you had then, like the trouble sleeping and the clothes, and that you can link it back.

Anna:

Yeah and I, if you'd asked me at the time, I would have said I have got the best group of mates. We have so much fun and we had so much fun.

Steph:

So can I just touch on again the impact of losing a friendship. We mentioned the isolation, the loneliness, the sadness that can come with it. So I know I've sent you this clip. I hope you remember it.

Steph:

But Simon Sinek is another person that I follow on social media and I saw a very short clip of him talking about a friend that he had reached out to him and was like hey, how are you doing? Want to come over over? Which was actually a cry for help, he said. But he didn't know because it was such a relaxed message and it struck a chord with me because in those moments of I feel alone, I don't know what, what I've done wrong here, and it always goes back to blame yourself, doesn't it? Whereas actually it's probably nothing to do with you. It's the problem is with that person that's treating you badly. But it's so easy to go, why me? What have I done to deserve this?

Steph:

And they made a pact that if she needed him you know, if something had gone wrong she needed him. Then they were going to message have you got eight minutes? Because Simon was saying that all humans need is eight minutes of time from a friend to not feel alone in a moment of stress and their code word of do you have eight minutes? I think, like to everyone that I know, if they messaged me that I would drop everything and be like, yes, of course I have eight minutes. What's going on?

Anna:

That's smart. It's such a smart thing to say, isn't it?

Steph:

Mm.

Anna:

Yeah, I might start doing that. That's good advice. Yeah, I might feed that into my new ways of working with friendships. Yeah, that is good.

Steph:

I thought the same, because when people feel alone, thought processes can snowball, can't they like I know when I've been in like an anxiety black hole, really, Alan said to me you are not in the present, you know you're you are in this hole with your thoughts. Try and bring yourself like what's happening now, and it's worse when you feel alone.

Anna:

Of course.

Steph:

So I just hope people are listening and, if they are going through this, that they have the strength to reach out to somebody and say can we have a five minute chat? You know?

Anna:

Yeah, and I think also sometimes it's worth remembering that I have a weekly walk with a friend and we just moan or whinge or celebrate 30 minutes each and then walks over. It takes an hour every week and sometimes she'll ask me about something and like at the time it was like a standing agenda item, how's the thing with that group of friends who are bullying you? It was never asked that clinically. It was asked in a way that doesn't keep those people anonymous. So I'll just be like, and sometimes I just couldn't be bothered to talk about it. So it's not fun talking about negative things.

Anna:

Sometimes a gift is to ring somebody up who you know is maybe a bit lonely. Or if that person's indicated they're lonely and I will say, would you like to talk about it or would you like to talk about something completely different? And they go do you know what? Completely different. And then I can go brilliant, I've can talk about myself. But you know that's nice. This doesn't have, y ou don't have, you want to be a good friend, it's someone having a dark time. You don't have to talk about what's dark, you can talk about anything else.

Steph:

Yeah, bring some light into it.

Anna:

It's also just make them feel connected about other things that are going on.

Anna:

You know, those temporary traffic lights are a nightmare aren't they yeah, so you know, yeah, it stays true.

Steph:

And that'll help stay out of this black hole I'm talking about.

Anna:

Have you tried the Stormzy Mcdonald's yet? No. Any different? Don't know. Right well, you know, do you want to go try it? Yeah, just yeah, I think it is is, but I do. I do think there is, there is a difference between male and female friendships, and female friendships are based on sharing, and sharing is vulnerability.

Anna:

And there is a reason why female friendships are so much firstly, better but intense, and they crash and burn more intensely. But then I would also argue that a lot of male friendships aren't friendships, they're just keeping in touch and they're actually terrible. Why is there an absolute spike in male loneliness? Why is male suicide like really much more rampant than female suicide, especially for young men? Because they are really terrible. They've not socialized to maintain their own friendship groups by themselves. You know, quite often when men go into relationships, the women maintains their social interactions or circles and firstly women don't do it. Don't do it because you know you need to nurture your own garden, but getting to look after is it's really important. We are all responsible for our own happiness and our own gardens and what we want to plant in them.

Steph:

Yeah, and it's easy, like I've been with Alan now five years and we have separate friends. Obviously we've both, we both still like, you're one of Alan's friends aren't you. We just hit it off. But now you're one of mine.

Anna:

Soz Al.

Steph:

But yeah, so, I think, going off what you said there, thank you for highlighting that about the gender difference in friendships, because I agree, and I think another thing to be aware of is, if you are in a relationship and you sort of obviously, obviously you want to spend time together, but don't forget your friends, that the ones that are fountains and that do fill you up and that have been there way before this person came along.

Anna:

Yeah, yeah.

Steph:

Like, like you say, keep watering them, don't forget about them.

Anna:

Yeah, I think, um, I just think as we get older as well it is, it is really important that you don't end up isolated just by neglecting those friendships.

Steph:

Yeah.

Anna:

But also you, I, I genuinely think you don't neglect friendships that bring you joy, you, they don't fall out of your mind, they just you know you, you it just happens. And obviously, if there is something going on like you've had a caring responsibility for someone who's been very poorly and your, your physical time is taken up, then that doesn't mean your friendship is lost not at all. And then a real friendship would pick up very easily, quickly, once you have the capacity to have them in your life again, and you won't, you just don't forget about you. I mean, like I've got a lovely husband. I can't talk to him every day. It's not that interesting, Jesus and he's certainly not funny about certain things and he certainly doesn't get under stings and he definitely doesn't like capybara content on social media and I dig that. So I need my female friends.

Steph:

You need to start sending me that.

Anna:

Yeah, capybaras and mudeng, like he doesn't know. So you know, your female friends are really important.

Steph:

Yeah.

Anna:

But I do feel like having like your own little set of rules. Friendships should not make you feel anxious, and if they do and like also, you know, when someone gets engaged like the, the crazy bride friend, right, give them and cut them a little bit slack. But actually, if their craziness is sufficiently damaging enough in the run up to their wedding, then what they're really doing is they're showing their authentic self. Is it in line with your value set? Well, if they're being an absolute diva and being quite dreadful about it, then probably not. So you know, have a think. Do I really want to go and spend £400 on this hotel, £70 on a dress that I only wear once? However, many hundred pounds on drinks and food and petrol for someone that in in 18 months time that I'm probably not going to be friends with? So, yeah, it's really important.

Steph:

Yeah, that's c omes back to recategorising your garden.

Anna:

Recategorise your friends, make sure you've got quality over quantity, and I've done that and, as a result, I've really concentrated on quality and, as a result, I've ended up having a really good quantity of friends, and it's lovely.

Steph:

Yeah.

Anna:

I actually saw somebody at a festival last year and he doesn't do social media and I'd lost my phone so many times in my 20s that I'd just lost all the numbers many times over and I'd lost contact with him and it was really sad because it was a lot of fun. And I bumped into him randomly at a festival last year. I'd not seen him for 14 years and he ran up to me and we had a hug. We spent the entire weekend together laughing and talking because, randomly, his tent was next to my tent at the festival.

Steph:

No way.

Anna:

And since then the energy has been brilliant, message each other I'm not gonna, I've not seen him all year. I'm seeing him at the festival again, like that's been brilliant, but like I've had to apply the same rules to that. He's not allowed to take my energy and he doesn't. He fills me up whenever I talk to him he's, he cracks me up and we have 50- 50 energy and I love it. I can't wait to see him again. He's going to get the biggest bear hug.

Steph:

That's so nice.

Anna:

ut actually that's good. So he was a real friend then yeah we didn't see each other for 14 years. We see each other pick up from where we left off brilliant.

Steph:

Yeah, that's a huge sign as well.

Anna:

Yeah, great.

Steph:

So, for those that are listening, just before we wrap up, could you recap your three rules for the listeners? And also, what advice do you want the listeners to take away from what we spoke about today if they're struggling with a difficult friendship?

Anna:

Okay, my advice is are they your friend or are they someone that you just go drinking with? When you see them, do they fill you up so you come back with a bounce in your step and a little grin because you've had a really nice time? Or even if they go through a sad time, are you coming away still feeling fulfilled that you've had that time with them? It's really important. And then, are they putting in the same amount of energy as you? Like you text first, they text back and then a couple weeks later, do they text first. It's got to be 50- 50. It has to be 50- 50, um, because energy and time are your most precious commodities. But the biggest thing I would definitely say is do not feel ashamed about somebody else being horrible to you. Do not be embarrassed about somebody else being horrible to you. They should be embarrassed. They should be ashamed.

Anna:

I think sometimes people I I when people stop being horrible to me, I would retreat and and I think sometimes and the noisy people get to control the narrative and I think that's very difficult. But just because you might be a quieter person, or you haven't controlled the narrative or some people have got a different version, or, don't be ashamed. That shame is not yours, that is theirs. My general vibe is, you know, water the flowers, not the weeds, isn't it? Water the flowers, I mean in your garden and in your friendship group, really.

Steph:

Well, thank you so much, Anna, for coming back on the podcast. Thank you for sharing your experiences as well. I know you went through a lot and I do appreciate you coming on.

Anna:

It's all right. I've been a friend of the podcast.

Steph:

You are a friend of the podcast. A nd I hope it's brought awareness into the life of all the listeners and the importance of friendship and all the things that come with it.

Steph:

So thank you so much for listening this week. You can follow me on instagram at Tranquil Topics and if you have enjoyed this episode, please do leave a rating or review, as it will help me to reach more people. Thank you, and I'll be back in two weeks with another episode. Bye.