Tranquil Topics

Why I'm Not Talking About Imposter Syndrome Anymore with Parul Singh

• Stephanie Graham • Season 1 • Episode 20

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Parul Singh is the founder of Parallel Minds Neurodiversity Consultancy, where she partners with organisations to create neuroinclusive work environments that enable Neurodivergent people to thrive. Before launching Parallel Minds, Parul worked in tech, specialising in talent acquisition, employer branding and ERG leadership. 

Her diagnoses, which came part-way through her career, completely changed the trajectory of her career. Parul draws on her experiences as an Autistic ADHDer and a woman of colour to advocate for Neuroinclusion through an intersectional lens. 

Originally from Liverpool, Parul has called Manchester home for the last ten years. When she's not working, she chases dopamine through many unfinished hobbies (embroidery being the latest one), in the gym, eating or playing the piano.

Have you ever felt like a fraud despite your achievements? You're not alone—but it might not be what you think. This eye-opening conversation completely transforms our understanding of what we've long called "imposter syndrome."

Parul reveals the fascinating history behind this misunderstood concept, explaining how it was originally termed "imposter phenomenon". We dive deep into what actually creates these feelings of inadequacy. It's not an inherent lack of confidence but rather the accumulated impact of microaggressions, barriers, and societal conditioning.

Whether you've struggled with feelings of not belonging or want to create more inclusive spaces, this episode offers both validation and a roadmap for moving forward.

To connect with Parul, please use the links below:

Email: info@parallelminds.io

Parul Singh - LinkedIn

Linktree

The Ultimate Neurodiversity Resource Bank

Request to join the Neurodivergent Techies Discord Community

Links to the various resources discussed during this episode are below:

"Bicycle Face"

How McKinsey's Story Became Sheryl Sandberg's Statistic - and Why It Didn't Deserve To

Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome

Reshma Saujani at Smith College's 2023 Commencement: Imposter Syndrome is Modern-Day Bicycle Face

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Steph:

Welcome back to Tranquil Topics. I'm your host, Steph, and today I am thrilled to introduce our guest, Parul Singh, who is the founder of Parallel Minds Neurodiversity Consultancy. Earlier this year, I had the privilege of attending Parul's talk on 'Why I'm not talking about imposter syndrome anymore', which completely changed my outlook on the whole concept, and today Parul has kindly shared her time with us to delve into this topic once again. Welcome to the podcast, Parul.

Parul:

Hi, Stephanie, thank you so much for having me on today.

Steph:

Thank you so much for being here. So, for the listeners, are you able to start by telling us a little bit about your journey and how you came to found Parallel Minds?

Parul:

Of course, so I studied chemistry at university. I very quickly realized that I was going to drive myself insane or blow something up if I was going to work in a lab on my own. So I fell into agency tech recruitment and I thought you know what great at talking to people and you know building relationships with people, and I did really thrive in that. My career then progressed. I worked in internal recruitment for a tech consultancy. Then I moved into candidate attraction and employer branding. But I think what's more important is actually, partway through that career journey I found out at 25 years old that I had ADHD. So that was a complete curveball, plot twist, I also found out that I was autistic about three years later but those diagnoses were really pivotal in getting me to where I am now because I started being really open about myself and you know and my differences and really leaning into them and helping other people realize that let's lean into these differences I have and also the ones you have, instead of running away from them and, you know, really advocating for my needs, and I saw how powerful that was for me to be able to do that.

Parul:

But I've always been a really confident and open person and I realized that not a lot of people actually have that privilege to be open and confident to advocate for their needs in the workplace. So I started doing some of that in my last company and stepping into ERG leadership. So ERG stands for Employee Resource Group, so sometimes called employee-led networks, communities, guilds, whatever you call it. The point is is that they're employee-led groups which which are usually around, maybe like identity, so for in ours it was neurodivergence. There was also women in engineering, LGBT group or etc. So I really got a taste of like how much of a difference that could make to people's lives in like the company. And then when I left that job in January, I started Parallel Minds and actually it was one year this Monday, so it's very nice to be able to actually kind of like share that story. And I set it up because I wanted to work with more companies to make their workplaces neuro inclusive, and it's just been an incredible journey so far.

Steph:

I love it. Congratulations for your year, year on.

Parul:

Thank you so much yeah, literally, like I didn't realize it was like 20, 21st of April. Actually today's the the 24th, so it's gone like really really quickly.

Steph:

Yeah, I know when I attended your talk, the way you came across, it was so passionate about what you're talking about and I was just, I was just sat there in awe of you, to be honest, and I was I was hiding at the back of the room. I was like I really, really would love to ask Parul on this podcast.

Steph:

So you're here today to talk about imposter syndrome. Why did you stop using the term imposter syndrome? Are you able to give us a bit of an insight into that, please?

Parul:

Yeah, so it's really interesting and if anybody listening to this is in the professional working world, you have probably heard of that word before. It's what people use to talk about when they're feeling a little bit you know out of you know, out of the depth, or feeling a little bit unconfident or feeling a little bit sort of like out of place. And I probably used it without actually thinking about the term and and what it really means, because you don't tend to do that about a lot of phrases, do you? And it was one video which which I watched, um and I can share the link with you to put it into the description which completely changed my perspective on imposter syndrome, and it was a few years ago and I've never seen it in the same way since. So it actually might be helpful just to talk a little bit about, I suppose, the background of it and like why I'm actually not using it anymore.

Parul:

So it was coined in 1978 by Dr Pauline Clance and Dr Suzanne Imes, um, in one of their, in one of their papers, and they basically said that there is, we have spotted a lot of high achieving women do not feel worthy of their achievements. So we're going to call this imposter syndrome, right, and what's interesting is it wasn't originally called imposter syndrome, so that this is this is where things start going wrong. Okay, so it was originally called imposter phenomenon, not syndrome, and I think the change in language is very important to what I'm going to talk about in a moment and like why, actually, I don't believe it exists. So a phenomenon is like. So it's like the northern lights, right? Oh, pretty lights. We we actually got to see those in the UK a few times which is which is wild. That's a phenomenon. It comes and goes, it's something which is different and it's notable, but it's temporary, whereas a syndrome is something which is innate and it's with you from birth and it's with you until you die, right.

Parul:

So now, when you think about it from, you know, a confidence perspective, is that? Are we? So what are we saying? Are we saying that, like, women are just inherently less confident than men? Like, is that just something that we just have and we just sort of have to, like, accept it? So I don't know, like is that? Is that something which you know, you think is like? Because a lot of people which I talk to they kind of like. They also kind of like, see it that way, you know, is that something which you maybe, is that a perspective which you have before, or something which maybe you know, some of your course mates and friends also think of it like that way. Is that like, oh, I just, I just have imposter syndrome.

Steph:

For sure. Yeah, it's almost part of your identity and a lot of the girls that I spoke to, um at university, we are all each other's biggest cheerleaders, but when it comes to yourself, it's almost like nobody has that within them because it's like, well, deep down, you think you're not good enough, or you don't belong here or you haven't got the skills that everyone else surrounding you with has got. And after attending your talk, I honestly I went home and I was like you know, you just sit in silence and you think about it because I thought I've had 30 odd years of this holding me back and essentially it's not a thing you know and it really really took me quite a few hours to just digest what I'd heard.

Parul:

Do you know, that is honestly amazing, I think, sometimes just to hear something like that and just really like, sit with it because I think as well as like, so we're quite close in in age, um, and I'm also um, because people are only hearing this, so I'm all you might tell by my name, but I'm also Indian, so coming from an ethnic minority, and then I'm also neurodivergent, so those like compounding kind of like factors it's like. Throughout my life I've had so many instances where people have made it very clear that I don't, that I don't belong, that I don't fit in. This is what society has told me my entire life. And there was one like. Actually the furthest earliest instance I can remember is, um, I was in primary school and you know how like girls do in primary school and like I don't know if you ever did this, where, like you'll make up like dance routines to like new pop songs. Do you remember doing that? Oh, my god, still love it. I've got absolutely not a rhythmic bone in my body but, you know, loved it as a kid.

Parul:

And one lunchtime I was I'd basically been left out from doing one with my friends and I asked them why and they said because they were doing a Girls Aloud dance and there wasn't a brown Girls Aloud member, but like just, and I was like eight years old, so it's then, but that was there. You know, obviously it doesn't come from place of like malice. I also think things like racism are like they're not, you're not born like obviously you are taught it and usually a bit like later in life. So I don't think it came from a place of malice. I think that was literally just the logic in their heads. But that was one of the first times that I realized that I'm just inherently different from other people, right? And I remember sitting in my first job and it was an agency recruitment. So what they were doing is like they were reading through like the name of like names of like the contractors which they had and the consultant was saying if they thought the contract was going to be extended, like whatever it is and whenever the director got to like an ethnic sounding name and was maybe struggling to like pronounce it, and then people would laugh, which then as being like also one of, actually, yeah, one of the only women of color, like in that room as well. I mean, I'm not laughing like I've had to I've had people like like mispronounce name, like misspelling my name, giving me nicknames when I didn't ask for it, just because it was like easier for them, or remembering a lot of other people's names and not like saying it.

Parul:

So when you have those experiences of being ostracized and othered, and those kind of like microaggressions like through your life, like could you blame people like me, people like you, for feeling like an imposter, for feeling like an outsider? So now coming to why I have a problem with the concept of imposter syndrome, is that we're treating it like that's the answer, right, that like you just lack confidence and you have imposter syndrome. But actually, what's happening with imposter syndrome is it's the symptom of the constant barriers, oppression, microaggressions, discrimination, ostracization I could go on of the society and the systems that we live in. It's a symptom of that. So it's not an individual problem to solve, because a systemic problem requires systemic solutions. And if you listen to this and you still may be thinking that, oh, maybe not sure about that. So if this doesn't convince you, I don't know what will if you look at, if you just google, right, so don't take my words for it, just just listen to this.

Parul:

Google how to overcome imposter syndrome. I'm going to read you some of the things that it says. It tells you to focus on facts, not feelings. It tells you to reframe negative thoughts. It tells you to find a mentor. It tells you to celebrate a win. OK, but that just feels like professional gaslighting. It's basically saying that, well, this isn't your reality, because these are the facts right, because you've achieved this, you've achieved that. And it neglects to address the fact that when you do celebrate your achievements, they're not celebrated in a team channel, I've had that before and then other people talking about what they're doing on the weekend, and that gets loads of reactions, right?

Parul:

I shared something which was actually a real career defining moment for me and nobody reacted or responded to it. And when I shared it with my manager and he just said that you know, maybe it just didn't land the way that you thought it was, basically saying that, do you not think you might be bragging a little bit. Right? And hours later, when people are like oh yeah, I'm doing this over the weekend, they had so many more responses, so how can you tell me to focus on facts, not feelings, when those feelings are absolutely valid. It is harder for people from marginalized groups to find mentors, whether it's within the workplace or outside of the workplace. So you can see, the theme here is that we're trying to position individual solutions for a much wider spread systemic problem.

Steph:

Wow, yeah, and I suppose having responses like that I mean I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I would feel quite devalued like as a human being when you are met with them responses and then you sort of I mean, does that go into more of like isolation? Somebody might withdraw more from that? They might be like well, I'm not going to put my stuff out there because I keep getting shut down when I do, and so and so is getting all the cheers over there. Do you know what I mean?

Parul:

Yes.

Steph:

S o in your talk you used the phrase modern modern day bicycle face. Would you be able to explain to the listeners that metaphor and how it relates to the history and the evolution of the term imposter syndrome?

Parul:

Absolutely. I mean anybody who listens to that you're going to be like what on earth are you talking about? But it absolutely, it absolutely has relevance to this and this is actually the thing which was mentioned in that talk I said which which changed my perspective on imposter syndrome. Um, I think it was um Rashma Sojani actually. Um, I just remembered because I didn't want to get a name wrong, so I will link that um talk which she which she did, I think it was. She was addressing, um, like graduates of a college in America, actually, and it just like listen, I've got ADHD I've never watched something with my full attention for that long. It was just incredible.

Parul:

So in the 1800s, bicycles were becoming a more popularized form of transport, right? So before then it was only really, um, you know, it was only really maybe like horse-drawn carriages or like steam trains and things like that, basically for, like rich people. So transport was becoming more accessible. And then what did that mean? Is that so obviously like that, you know, back then is that you know, women were, they didn't work, they were in the home and you know, looking after like the home. So the bicycle started to become a sign of basically like freedom and liberation, because then women could go out of the house and they could meet with their friends. And it started to become, you know, a symbol of almost like feminism and, you know, catalyst for the suffragette movement. And then what happened was doctors found out that if you rode a bicycle, you had a risk of getting bicycle face, which was in their words a real medical condition where your eyes would bulge, your cheeks would go puffy and they would go red, and it was very, very bad. Sounds quite ridiculous, but remember, this was before the days of Google, so there was no fact checker back then.

Parul:

What's most interesting about that is, um, they said that it only impacted women. But again, so think scientifically, how is that possible? Like, firstly, I mean, obviously it's not even a real thing, right, you're probably just overexerting yourself and that's why those things are happening but, like, how is it medically possible that something like this would only impact women? So, again, think back to what I said there about how it was becoming a symbol of freedom for, for women in a very, very patriarchal society. And then the men didn't like that, so they came up with this syndrome that only impacted women, to scare them off of their bikes. And from what I've just told you like, does that sound a little bit familiar? I mean, it was women that coined imposter syndrome, of course, but when they in their, in their original study, they said that it disproportionately impacts high achieving women, like biologically, what is there that indicates that it should impact women more than men? Why is it not? Basically, for, like, anybody can struggle with this kind of like, lack of confidence and doubt on like their achievements. So I think that kind of like really makes you think that history just has a habit of like repeating itself.

Parul:

And this isn't really the only instance. This isn't about women, but there's another one which a lot of people don't know. Do you remember? So we must have been maybe about 10 years old at the time. Do you remember when the personal carbon footprint calculator thing, kind of like came out and there was this whole campaign around turn off your taps when you brush your teeth and turn off the light, and you know all of those sorts of things? So there was a, there was a real you know bit I mean, there's a silly thing about this now and obviously, like sustainability is huge. But do you know who came up with the concept of the personal carbon footprint calculator.

Steph:

I don't, no.

Parul:

I t was BP, who are one of, I think, maybe said the seventh most polluting company in the entire world wanted us to turn off the taps when we brushed our teeth to save the planet. Right, gaslighting. So then, taking this, yeah. So then taking this back to imposter syndrome, I don't want to invalidate how people experience things and how you feel about stuff. Like some of the stories which I have shared, like I absolutely felt out of place in those situations and there's too many that I could even share with you in this podcast. Your feelings are very, very real, but the reason I talk about this, to stop people talking about imposter syndrome, is actually start to think a little bit more about what are the other factors involved here. What is driving my intense feelings of I'm not worthy of my job? I've got this job by a fluke. The interview I don't know what happens. There might have been like a little matrix moment where you just sort of like wipe your memory on that one and I just got the job and somebody's gonna find me out and I'm gonna get fired any day. Every time my manager asked me for a chat. I think this is it. They found me out right.

Parul:

Those are very intense feelings. They're also they're not normal feelings. They're not feelings of, oh, I'm trying something new, oh, I feel a little bit out of my depth. Those are very, very normal feelings, by the way, and also, if you don't really feel that, then you may be not challenging yourself. I'm in my first year of running a business. That happens to me every single day, but I'm like I am just going to work it out. We need to stop internalizing these feelings, actually, because when we take it on our shoulders and we take that personal responsibility for it, we're allowing the system that creates these types of environments for us, we're allowing them to forego the accountability for that and we're taking it upon ourselves to fix ourselves and our confidence issues.

Steph:

I don't know if you're aware, Parul, but like the way you're able to describe this and explain it, it is really, really powerful. Like this is the second time that I've been able to, you know, be in the room essentially with you and it's just, it's just mind-blowing.

Parul:

Thank you.

Steph:

So if I bring us back round to another part of your talk, which you originally spoke about, you question the idea of a confidence gap. Can you tell us more about this?

Parul:

Yeah, I think it's, it's all, it's all related to you know the the imposter syndrome thing as well. Right, because it's about you know that kind of like the confidence gap. Um, there is an article um which I will also ask you to to to link if anybody wants to read it. But have you heard of this stat, which people share around, how, um, men will apply for a job when they only meet x number of requirements, but women will only apply when they meet all of the requirements?

Steph:

Really, no, I haven't heard that one before, no.

Parul:

S o so what what is this indicating? It's indicating women have a confidence gap. So when women are not confident enough to apply for jobs unless they meet all of the requirements, okay, so that's what it's suggesting. But this stat has no basis. It's not true. So it was taken from an anecdotal quote from an internal conversation at HP, Hewlett Packard from an executive, and it was completely distorted and put all over the internet, including in Sheryl Sandberg's book Lean In, and then it's become we've just also accepted that there's no basis to say whether it's true. So there's this idea of this confidence gap, which even like stats like that which is so, like widespread and like never questioned. But people are like, is this actually true? Because there might be like so many different reasons why and look, my background is in, is in recruitment, so I know that there are a lot of reasons why somebody might not like apply for like a job, and, yes, it might be true.

Parul:

But again we're saying that, oh, women have this confidence gap and like nobody is actually like questioning it. Um, and I think it's less of a confidence gap but more of like an ambition penalty. So like we're not scared of like doing these things or sharing our wins and, you know, doing things which, like people just think that we're not necessarily like capable capable of. It's more about how people react and like respond to those things. And there was a quote which I had shared in the talk as well, and by Chloe Angel, I hope I didn't mispronounce it and she said that girls and women don't suffer from a lack of confidence. They suffer from an excess of experience and how the world reacts to confident girls and women so powerful right

Steph:

Yeah.

Parul:

Yeah. So like women always told, like just, you know, don't take the lime light so much, like don't brag, like don't be so big-headed, don't be so assertive, and like putting yourself like out there, and I think we also get into the habit of that kind of almost that like internalized, like misogyny as well. I think, like girls and women is sometimes so cruel to each other for those things as well, but that that's because of the patriarchy which which we live in, right? So is it a confidence gap that we just have less confidence, or is it the confidence penalty which then, because we're not born lacking confidence? Do you know how bold children are? I'm not around like children, like that much anyway, because everyone around me is like grown up, but do you know how bold and confident they actually are. Nobody is taught to be that like I don't want to say like shy and like timid, but just almost that kind of like that holding back and just stopping yourself from like saying something because they will just say it. But how many times do you see it?

Parul:

I see it a lot with women as well, when they, the way that we phrase things, so when you say, oh, let me know if that works like I hope this is, I hope this is okay, sorry, I've just like I've gone around the house, I've just said a lot. There we're just apologizing for absolutely nothing. But that's again. It's not something that you're born with. It's something that, when you have been in those situations and you have been brought down and inverted commas put in your place, you learn to actually like, say those self-deprecating things and apologize for literally existing.

Steph:

Do you know what that actually really upsets me, because I can recognize myself in everything that you've just listed there.

Steph:

I suppose, like for example, when you mentioned about being assertive, I've had people come back and say like, well, it must be her time of the month, you know, and it's like there's always another reason, rather than just accepting like, no, this is what I want to say and I'm saying it, but I don't know if that's because they don't want to hear it or they think, oh, that's different for Steph. You know, I don't have the reason or the explanation, but yeah, and in terms of shying away, so when I started this podcast last year, it was actually my partner's idea, because he was like, well, you listen to so many, why don't you just start your own? And instantly I was like, um, I'm not sure, like I'm not a podcaster. Then when you actually think about it, it's like, well, you won't be until you give it a try. You know, know you have to fight these internal feelings and actually risk being seen and put yourself out there without fear of judgment or whatever's going to come back around. But I spent so many years shying away and making myself smaller because of everything that you've just listed and I really don't want other people to continue their path doing that, if they are doing that.

Parul:

Yeah absolutely and I think that's such your your experience is not, you know it's not an outlier. You know how we perceive ourselves versus like how we perceive other people right, and you're like, oh, they must have all of this down. And you know we really put people on like a pedestal and I know that it's said all the time, but I just cannot emphasize enough. When you spend enough time with people who look like they've made it, you realize that they are working it out as they go along and it is a lot of like just fake it until you make it. But that is, that's not necessarily like a bad thing. I'm not necessarily faking it because I just accept that I necessarily don't know these things and I'm working it out for like the first time.

Parul:

And I think I only finished university. How many years ago was it now? Oh, almost seven years ago. That is really really weird to feel to say that actually. But like, where I got to in only three or four years of like my career was like people spend decades actually getting to like that point. Um, I basically tripled my salary in 12 months, which is like pretty much unheard of by like somebody like at that age, and it's because I ran with the opportunities which I got, I sought out opportunities which I knew that I was like fully capable of, right and like one example would be um, I don't know if you've seen the ADHD chatter podcast on like Spotify, like LinkedIn. I mean my network is a lot of neurodivergent people, so like it's okay if you haven't seen it, but it's a, it's a, really, it's a brilliant podcast. Alex Partridge hosts is it and it's, I mean, it's a, it's a really, really big podcast. And, um, I had seen on LinkedIn he had said that he was going to start this podcast and this was about maybe, like two, two years ago maybe, and I just like sent him a connection request. So Alex is the is the founder of LAD Bible and UNILAD actually, and I was following him on LinkedIn and talk about his ADHD journey and he's supposed to start this podcast, sent him a personalized connection request and I was like, hey, I'd love to come on, talk on your podcast and it was like brilliant, it was one of the first episodes on that podcast and it was just absolutely like he's just, he's just great and I really, really enjoyed it and you know there was a lot of quite, you know, prominent people with bigger platforms, and the comments of that post as well.

Parul:

So if I would have been like, well, who am I to these people, do you know? I mean, I didn't have as much of a like a, I suppose, like in your a platform focused on neuro diversity, like at that point, like I did have quite like a good platform, but it wasn't as much as it kind of like is now. Um, and it was amazing and I wouldn't have got that if I'd hadn't like put myself out there so I wasn't thinking about like do I fit in with the other people who are kind of going to be in this, because I'm like, I'm my own person. And then, about like a year ago, I was like, oh, I've, um, actually just had my autism diagnosis. Funny story. I would love to come back on and actually talk about how it took me three years after my ADHD diagnosis to figure out I was also autistic and I think I think it's a really important kind of part of my story to to share. And you know, building on from that one, and he was like, yeah, absolutely actually. Then he had like the podcast studio in London. So I went down to London and I recorded it on there and, like you know, it was a it was a really really good episode. There were actually a few little clips from that podcast which had basically gone viral on a lot of different like platforms and then collectively like five million views or something which is wild. And there was somebody in the gym that I used to go to and she was like your clip just came up on my feed. Obviously we, we don't know each other, we don't follow each other, so like that was completely random and like other people, but then you know, I wouldn't have actually have like got those like opportunities as well.

Parul:

Um last year, um, so it was probably about like a year ago. There's this really big um. So the sector I work in is tech and um. I do a lot of like talks and things like that and there's this very prestigious tech conference, um for engineering leadership, called LeadD ev, and they're all engineering leaders who generally they they attend and like they speak and I was like do you know what I'm going to apply for it. I'm going to do something on neurodiversity. It was actually neurodiversity and leadership video games themed, which I've done variations of and people absolutely love it. And I was like do you know what? They might love it, they might not. I'm going to go for it. Funny story I actually almost missed the deadline because I had reminders on Sunday and I somehow still missed my notifications. I woke up on Monday morning, bolted up right out of bed realizing I'd forgotten, checked on the website by some miracle it was still open until 8 am that day. So I was like furiously writing my submission, like my boyfriend came back from the gym and I shouted and I was like don't talk to me. And he was like oh, what's going on? And I managed to get it in with 30 seconds to spare.

Steph:

Wow.

Parul:

And I got, and I got chosen. They told me that they could because they get so many proposals for talks. The selection rate is lower than getting into Harvard, right? So I suppose maybe I could get into Harvard if I wanted to, right? That's the kind of confidence we want, okay, um, but then I got chosen, but not for a second did I think well, I'm not a technical person, I'm not an engineering leader. I made really good friends with another speaker who's director of engineering at Netflix and we were chatting on like Slack and stuff and just Bruce became like really good mates with him.

Parul:

Not for a second did I think I'm an imposter, I don't belong. The talk's not going to be as good as I maybe made it out to be in like the proposal, I thought this is what I deserve and this is where I'm meant to be right, because I spent all that time really reprocessing my opinion and view of myself right of being like an outsider and not being deserving of those things. So then when I get opportunities like this, I really run with it and it was an absolutely incredible talk and the feedback was amazing and I'm actually going to apply, the deadline is tomorrow, I'm going to apply for the New York one and I'm speaking that out into existence because you've recorded this. I might not get it, but I'm doing it with the same level of confidence that I want other people to have. It's not delusional, it's not big-headed, it's challenging the thoughts that you've thought about yourself and seeing yourself in the light that actually maybe like true friends and other people actually see you.

Steph:

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that.

Steph:

I agree with you. Like we do, or we can view ourselves completely differently to how somebody else sees you. And then for those people when you confided them and say like, oh, I'm having these thoughts and they'll be like why? You know that's not, they don't see that at all like in your orbit. And one thing that popped into my mind when you were speaking then was, um, you've probably heard of Jay Shetty.

Parul:

Yeah.

Steph:

He said, in terms of opportunities, you've got all these doors in front of you. Knock on every single one and the ones that open, go through them, because those are the ones that are for you and I absolutely love that.

Steph:

So, when you were talking about having the confidence in yourself to be able to go and do that, um, I, when I was younger, I spoke about this on the podcast before I went through a really hard time in school. It was awful and from being bullied, I feel that my thoughts and mindset shifted very negatively to about myself and from doing the podcast, one of the things, one of my passions growing up, was actually singing. And then went through high school and it just I just lost it. I just really lost it, and one of my biggest fears from starting the podcast was I sound like a bit of a fairy. You know, I've got this really like gentle voice and one of the biggest feedback comments that I've received is how nice your voice is, which was the complete opposite to what I was expecting. So that's just an example of like how your thoughts are so different to actually how people perceive you as well, and it's given me the confidence to restart that, which is something that I genuinely thought that I'd parked.

Parul:

Do you know what that's called? So we've talked about microaggressions and people are probably like very familiar with that, that comment which you you said that you got. That's what I call a micro affirmation or a micro validation, which I believe are the antidotes to microaggressions. Right, so you know, when you grow up and you get those kind of microaggressions you know about, maybe like your voice and in your example, and you really like internalize those, is you really need people to like you can't do this on your own right. You can do all of the therapy and the and the self-development and everything. Like it's really hard to go through this journey like on your own. Like you need people who are going to give you those micro validations which are going to heal those parts of you that you didn't even maybe realize that you hated so much for like your entire life.

Parul:

For me, an example would be because I grew up un diagnosed neurodivergent, so I was always told that like you talk too much, that other people speak, you're too loud, you're too, you're too overwhelming, like you're too difficult, all of those sorts of things. But then when, like you know, for example, like at home with, like with my partner, or even like people that I interact with from like a work perspective and they say that like I, somebody said it I was in group coaching yesterday because I'm on the Natwest Accelerator Programme and there was somebody actually facilitating a bit, so he's a business coach and he said that, I'd just spoken for like two minutes. He was like I love your energy so I've never met this person before and five minutes in, I love that. So things that I was shamed for and being too loud and having too much energy. There's people out here, even strangers, giving me those micro affirmations which are just it's so healing to hear that. And don't get me wrong, I'm still going to come across people who think that I am too much. But because I've started to heal those parts of me, I don't pay as much attention to those sorts of things, because then I realize that like, what are you like projecting? And I feel a bit bad for them, because then I'm like well, there's obviously something which, like you're carrying, which makes you feel the need to actually kind of like put me down that way. And so I do try to kind of like empathize with, kind of like, where they're coming from, but like those cuts don't go as deep, if at all, anymore.

Steph:

For sure I do love your energy as well. I thought the same. It's infectious.

Parul:

Oh thank you.

Steph:

It is, and you come across, like when I was at your talk, you were so like I'm I'm very introverted, but I could feel myself getting like, yeah, you know out of my shell more, and it was because of you, and it was just in the room. I know the room was full. It was full of people, wasn't it? And when we did the group work with the people close by to us, I really did feel like, yeah, this, this is really positive.

Steph:

So we touched on microaggressions. Are you able to share some microaggressions that have stuck with you and how they've shaped your sense of self-worth, essentially, or the societal conditioning? Because a few popped in my head when, when you were talking before but I'd be really interested if you could share a few more.

Parul:

Yeah, I think it's probably just a lot. I've probably mentioned like quite a few subconsciously, like throughout this episode so far, about you know being told that like I'm just a little bit too much, or you know that's a little bit out of like your scope. You know, like let let somebody else. You know, let somebody else do that, and just being just being dismissed, being ignored, being told that I'm too emotional. I mean, like the list, the list really goes on. The thing about microaggressions is that sometimes they're so subtle you don't even realize them until a little bit later. So that's good old uh, maybe years later for some people. It's that like delayed processing, really isn't it.

Steph:

Yeah, when I was able to recognize it from your talk, because I was one of them that you go through life and you say, oh, they're not very nice, whereas really I didn't actually know the terminology for it that it was a microaggression. So, for example, if someone lets you go first, it's all beauty before brains and it's like you know, that's quite dismissive really. And then I worked, um, as an office manager, and this was before I went to uni, and there was one guy that always called me the tea lady and I was like I offered to make a brew for everybody because that's just who I am.

Parul:

Yeah.

Steph:

If I can make your day easier, I will, but then you,

Parul:

And it's such a nice thing, but then to reduce somebody to that is just really that's just diabolical.

Steph:

Yeah, and I noticed within the team the younger people um, I witnessed them being treated more junior than they actually were. Like you have the same qualification, you're equally as qualified. You know one may have more experience in terms of years, but that doesn't, it just didn't make any sense to me, um, but yeah.

Parul:

That is so rude.

Steph:

I know.

Parul:

Now that you, now that you say that, I know that we've talked a lot about like, like women, you know, in this and obviously talked about men at some other parts, but some of these things do they do impact like men as well. So, like like one of my friends, um, I met him at the first time at like an event and I was saying, oh, I'm looking for speakers like the next one or whatever. And I was like, oh, what do you want to talk about? And he was like, I want to talk about accents. So this was a tech meetup. It was focused on like the soft skills bearing in mind. But I was like, okay, that's really interesting. Like, tell me more. And he said, well, well, I'm a, I'm a proper northern lad right, and I left school with no qualifications and I'm a head of um in in this like company and I work with a lot of people like down in like London and they just very openly mock my accent because they're all, because they're all like Londoners, like southerners, so it's also so, it's also that kind of like so the accent bias and the classism in this country and other countries as well, is is also like very, very real and people are, obviously I'm from Liverpool, so like having a Scouse accent, but that's actually become a lot more like subtle as as time has like passed, probably again subconsciously, because I probably thought that people think I'm less intelligent with a stronger accent. So that that's, that's one of them.

Parul:

And then another um story came to mind, where I'd started my first job and I was in a sort of like a one-to-one thing with the learning and development person and I'd been there for like a month and she was like how is it going? And I was like not great to be honest. I don't understand any of the tech for the roles I'm supposed to be recruiting for. I'm just, yeah, and I've been like shadowing like my buddy that I got assigned to who's been he's been working here for a bit longer and I go in these like meetings, client meetings with him and I feel like I just kind of like sit there, I don't, I don't even know like what to like say, but obviously I'm not short of words, right, but I'm like I just I just don't even know whether it's even like where is like my place to like speak or like what is appropriate, because I don't want to like, annoy him or like you know, and she said, well, that's fine, you can just be a cute mute, so you can just sit there, look pretty and be quiet. That's a microaggression, right, because that's reducing me to my appearance.

Steph:

Wow.

Parul:

But she again, she didn't mean it maliciously, I'm not excusing it, but she didn't mean it maliciously, like that was her way of being, like this is how you're going to get by, basically, this is how you're going to survive this industry. So just leverage that. Just leverage being a young woman rather than okay, well, what can we do to teach you more about it so you feel confident to speak up? That was what now, looking back, I wish she would have said, but I think that's again because she, she started in that industry like a lot, you know, a lot, earlier than I actually did. She probably had to do that to survive, right, yeah, you know, and she and she's, you know, quite an attractive blonde woman and and maybe that was like her experience, because it was probably even like more, like recruitment was maybe even more misogynistic, right, like in that time is what I was like experiencing it then. So she was trying to tell me how to help me, but but it still wasn't right and I internalized that. again.

Steph:

Gosh. How did that make you feel like? Do you remember? In the moment?

Parul:

At the time I was like good point, I, a young, what people consider conventionally attractive woman, I can harness that. That's how I took it at the time. It took me years to, actually, it was when I was writing the first talk that I did on this topic, almost two years ago now that I remembered that story, so it wasn't even there in the back of my head. That's when I started to think about it again. And then, how are we, how are these experiences shaping us as as women today? Right, so, it had been buried until I was writing the talk on imposter syndrome, or anti-imposter syndrome as you would call it, but how it makes me feel now I don't. You know, I don't resent her for that, because she was genuinely trying to help me, but it's just a really good example of like. We don't see these really like casual, like cuts, and it's death by a thousand paper cuts, right?

Steph:

Yeah. So if we stop internalising these experiences as imposter syndrome, what do we do instead? How do we begin to redefine confidence and success on our own terms?

Parul:

Okay, if we want to stop internalizing the experiences, we have to call them out for what they are. That these experiences are, they are discrimination, they are microaggressions, they are forms of oppression instead of just a bit of like, a lack of like confidence right, and she's going back to what I said at the beginning, where we we can't solve a systemic problem by giving individual solutions, by saying that, like reframe your negative thoughts and like find a mentor, like that's never gonna actually fix the problem. But I think you also have to remember that it's not necessarily your problem to fix as a from a systemic perspective okay. We all have a part to play in that. But it's not for you to take everything on your shoulders and educate people and challenge the broken systems and environments right, because there's also an element of like self-preservation which is needed. As somebody who's a very vocal advocate for marginalized groups, it can also put you in a very vulnerable position. It can take a toll on you and your, your mental health. Obviously it's, it's not all bad, right, but you've got to think about what are you willing to take on your shoulders, you know, like for yourself, like if you want to go out there and you and you have that passion to be a change maker and use your voice, absolutely do it but it is not your job.

Steph:

And what advice would you give to somebody listening now who, after this conversation, is realizing that what they thought was imposter syndrome is actually something completely different? What, what advice would you give to them?

Parul:

Okay, two pieces. Two things I want you to do is, first, one is go and read a little bit more on this, because I could only scratch the surface in this podcast. So read a little bit about the history if you want to read the original, kind of like the paper about it, to actually understand where it has, where it has come from, and read about like the bicycle face and more of that like context, and hopefully it'll fall more into place for you. And then the second thing is, like, start to talk about it, because I say I don't talk about imposter syndrome, which is obviously that's a little bit contradictory, because I'm sat here talking about it, but, like I shared it with people and then they were like you should do a talk on this. I did the talk on it, I did another talk, I'm on this like podcast with you.

Parul:

Actually, though, when you sit there with people and I'm not just talking about with your other, like female friends, but, like we said, it's not just about being a woman, it's about you know other like marginalized identities, some of which you can't see, like my friend I was talking about the accent, he's a white man, right, but he's experienced that. Start talking about it and you'll actually realize that, oh my god, there's actually so much more to it. There's so much power in speaking things like out into the open and actually really opening up those conversations about it. And you know, sitting on this conversation with you because I'm going to call this a conversation as well, of course, it just happens to be recorded is there's other instances which I've actually never thought about or mentioned in talks until now. So by talking about this with you, like more of those pieces are actually starting to fall into place and that will help you get from a place of internalising your faults and your lack of confidence and your incapability to recognising the barriers in the system. And you might not necessarily be able to fix them. We collectively might not be able to fix them, you know in like the foreseeable future, but that's how we start to initiate effective and positive change.

Steph:

Thank you so much, Parul.

Steph:

I think for me again, I will listen back to this podcast numerous times now, because I have you, I have you recorded.

Parul:

Of course. Yeah, you're going to be sick of my voice by the end of it.

Steph:

But I think to realize that it's the outside world rather than you, and like the fact that you can I'm going to say unconsciously, subconsciously take it on without actually realizing what, what you are taking on, and the fact that we can address that and hopefully change people's mindsets so they do make positive changes, it's really, really powerful. Thank you so much, for.

Parul:

I just want, I just want people to just have that like confidence. Yeah, like if I could just bottle up what I, what I feel on like a day-to-day basis and like give it to to you and like others is like a magic potion, like I like I wish I could do that, like I still have some of those days right, I'm not at like a delusional level of kind of like self-confidence, but like that's just what I I really want for like other people, because incredible things happen you know, when you do that and you think you're the only, you're the only one.

Parul:

And there's actually a funny stat which I wanted to share to close this off is there was a survey published which indicated that around one third of Americans think they could land a commercial aircraft in an emergency. And when they look, when you look at the percentage of male respondents, that confidence rose to nearly 50%. So nearly 50% of men think they can land a commercial aircraft in an emergency. So I'm just going to leave you and the listeners with that to just really like brew on it. And then I want you to think about do you really not have the confidence to do that thing at work? A lot to think about.

Steph:

Yeah, it's powerful, thank you.

Steph:

So how can the listeners learn more about you, about your work, and how do they connect with you further?

Parul:

Yes, I would love to hear any thoughts, any thoughts, feedback, stories. I love connecting with new people. I will say that the only social media platform I really use is LinkedIn, so we will pop that into the podcast description. But if you don't use LinkedIn for any reason, I can also put my email if you'd like to get in touch there and you'll be able to see on my profile just some of the other podcasts and my newsletter and things like that. But yeah, I'd absolutely love to connect and, you know, if this, my story and has really resonated with you, and if I've managed to maybe change your perspective a little bit, then I'd love to know.

Steph:

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, Parul. It's it's been an absolute joy. Thank you so, so much.

Parul:

Thank you, no, it's been great, thank you.

Parul:

You're a really really good podcast host and I have to say I really like your voice. I think you have a you've got, you've got an audiobook voice, which is a really, really big compliment.

Steph:

Thank you. I did, someone just say to me I can't remember the initials, but it's like a sleep thing, you know you record. I can't remember what it's called. It's like four initials and it's people fall asleep basically, someone said I should get into that, but I don't know how you get into that.

Parul:

Was it ASMR?

Steph:

Yes, yeah.

Parul:

Oh, I didn't know that people do that with, like their voice, because I know that they do like the tappy things and like the noises and stuff like that. But like I have like sensory processing issues so I really don't like, I don't like the tappy stuff, but I didn't know that there was a voice side of it.

Steph:

Apparently so yeah, thank you, thank you very much.

Parul:

You're very welcome.

Parul:

Thank you everybody for listening.

Steph:

Thank you so much for listening. You can follow me on instagram at Tranquil Topics and if you have enjoyed this episode, please do leave a rating or review, as it will help me to reach more people and I'll be back in two weeks time with another episode. Bye.