Athletic Fortitude Show
Athletes all over the world endure countless mental physical and psychological adversities over the course of their careers. We are here to bring you the solutions to those adversities with some of the top professional athletes, coaches, and sport and performance psychologists around the world!
Athletic Fortitude Show
World-Class Performance Coach Dr. Julie Gurner On Drive, Talent & The Price of Greatness
Dr. Julie Gurner highlights the common misconceptions surrounding success, emphasizing that determination, sacrifice, and mindset are crucial for achievement. She encourages listeners to shift their perspectives about their backgrounds, harness their belief in themselves, and cultivate resilience to overcome obstacles.
• Misconceptions about success often lead to false expectations
• High achievers must sacrifice and persist through challenges
• Both nature and nurture shape motivation and ambition
• Belief drives action; understanding this is key to growth
• Importance of surrounding oneself with a positive support system
• Embracing resilience in face of rejection and setbacks is vital
• Define your own path to success, acknowledging personal progress
Welcome back to the show, everybody. On today's episode we have Dr Julie Gerner. She's a world renowned executive performance coach. She's compared to Wendy Rhodes of billions via the Wall Street Journal. She's a consultant, she's a writer, she's an entrepreneur. She is absolutely one of my favorite interactions on Twitter. You should go follow her at Dr Gerner. She is someone who is just really really well known in the the space and we're going to talk a lot about things regarding mindset, performance and how to bring out the best of ourselves, and this episode is brought to you by all black everything performance energy drink the official energy drink of the athletic fortitude podcast available in walmart, meyer and select gnc franchise locations. And on today's episode, dr Julie Garner. What's the most surprising misconception about success that you've consistently encountered among high achievers?
Speaker 2:Among high achievers, the misconceptions about success are very different than the misconceptions, I think, about success from those who are just kind of starting out.
Speaker 2:So I think that those who are just starting out, I think that the misconceptions are that it's much easier than it turns out to be, that it doesn't require a lot of the sacrifices, that it does, and I think that's promoted by a lot of things that you see on social media Instagram, all of those types of things which you know show individuals who have, you know, a lot of friends, they're going out a bit, they have nice things and that they, you know, kind of give the illusion and polish of success.
Speaker 2:But it's clear that a lot of either the work behind the scenes is never shown or you know, kind of that work has never taken place and it's actually just a sheen that has nothing behind it.
Speaker 2:I think that those who are high achievers, I think that there are layers that you begin to see as you get, you know, kind of higher up the chain, that you don't know going into it, and I think the reason you don't know going into it is you might not go into it if you knew all of the things that were probably required. It's blissful ignorance as you move forward and you just keep seeing the next rung and what's possible and what it requires, and I do believe that you know that reinforcement keeps you moving forward. You know, you know what's required to kind of get to the next level and you just keep sacrificing and keep learning and keep tackling those things as you go because you gain the confidence to tackle them. I think if high achievers were aware of the things that required that sometimes maybe there would be more hesitation than there is. And I kind of like that run at it. Give it your all beauty of people who are really gunning for big things.
Speaker 1:Now is elite success, like high achievers. Are those people destined to be there? Is it reserved for the select few, or can really anybody be great?
Speaker 2:You know that's a really complex question. I think it's a really smart question because I think that we reserve it for this elite few and I think what those people tend to have are traits and qualities that a lot of people are just unwilling to kind of put forward. I've always said that at least if you have at least a healthy body and kind of an average IQ, that really you can do almost anything out there. I mean sports accepted, because there's no way I'm going to be an NBA player, no matter what I do. But I do think for business, if we're talking about that, that there really isn't anything that you can't do as long as you have those two traits. But are you willing to do what it takes? Are you willing to kind of you know sacrifice, you know certain elements of your time or your income or comfort, or you know delaying gratification or learning certain things? I don't know that everybody is really willing to do that. So I think that what you're seeing when you see the elite few who are up there is that they contain a lot of traits that other people either, you know, don't have around. Drive, it's one of those things, for example, drive, that I feel like either you've got or you don't. I've yet to meet someone I can train drive in. I think they either have it or they don't.
Speaker 2:But a lot of these other traits, aside from kind of that hunger and drive, I think that they are just willing to do things that get them where they are and they just don't stop. They persist, they continue, they get knocked down. I mean, if you look at any of those stories, they have failures, they get hit hard. Oftentimes they're sidelined in really significant ways, but they just keep going. I mean there is a kind of a force of nature about them that they're just not going to stop. And it comes in all sorts of packages, which is something really fun for me, because they're not always in the package we expect.
Speaker 2:And you know, that kind of drive is elite in and of itself and I think that if you have that and you're willing to do what it takes, I think that there's no reason it should be reserved for the elite few.
Speaker 2:I think that we have, for example, in the United States. It's a smaller marker now, but we have like 22 million millionaires in the United States. It's a smaller marker now, but we have like 22 million millionaires in the United States, we tend to think about these things as far more rare than they actually are, and I think that's part of the thing that holds a lot of people back is that they do think oh, you know, just a handful of people will get this particular type of reward, but in kind of what you're describing, these elite, elite few that are going to get to the top 0.01%. I mean, there is something kind of monstrous about that type of drive and it's not negative. I think it's a consumptive, obsessive, never-ending, persistent push that is a fire that just does not end. And if you've got that, I don't know that there's much you can't do.
Speaker 1:So I had the pleasure of interviewing a gold medalist on my show before. And that relentless obsession, the ability to persist. How much of that is genetic, like are we born with that? Or can someone who may be not be as obsessive learn that obsessive trait?
Speaker 2:I don't know that. You can learn it. I think you can discover what you are obsessed about. But I do think that there's something you ask about kind of nature versus nurture, and I think there's a combination there, because you will learn that a lot of times these individuals, they come from backgrounds that just reinforce that hunger, that maybe they were ambitious and they were optimistic and then you know, events happen that kind of push them forward and forward and forward and it fuels their drive in different ways. And to me that's all about cognitive interpretation and kind of a lot of presets different ways, and to me that's all about cognitive interpretation and kind of a lot of presets.
Speaker 2:For example, you will find that two kids that go through very hard times let's say they have an abusive parent and one is going to say, oh, I can never succeed in life. I had this horrible background. Maybe they turned to drugs to cope. They have a lot of challenges around that you know, and I don't judge that. But one person's going to take it in one way. Another person's going to say I never want to be like that person, I am never going to have to live like this again. I'm going to take that in. I'm going to see this model and I'm going to be everything that my background was not and I am going to push endlessly and that will be fuel for them to, you know, get their mother and father or mother or father to a place of financial independence. It will get them to a place where they personally can rise.
Speaker 2:So I think that there's a lot of little. We can stratify it in a lot of really important ways, and one of those really important stratifications is how we cognitively kind of interpret and see the world, because the same things, the same variables that will hold some people back will be fueled to other people. And you know we are either going to feel inferior or, you know, oppressed or pressed down around some of these things about our backgrounds or where we come from or the situations that we find ourselves in, or we are going to feel like we have to overcome. And I think the overcomers, we see them everywhere. We see them in the top levels of entertainment. You see them with Oprah, you see them with others. You also see people who struggle and can't overcome themselves and that will hold you back ultimately if you can't do that. So I do think there are.
Speaker 2:It's a little.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit of both nature and nurture, but that cognitive preset of how you interpret the world is really key and you'll see it everywhere on social media, by the way someone's you know, celebrating success, reaching success, and someone else will say, oh, you know, but it's not possible for everyone because of X, y and Z, and that's why I give allowance for like hey, if you don't have your health, you're going to focus 100% of your resources on that.
Speaker 2:If you don't have at least an average IQ, you probably cognitively can't learn and do a lot of the things that you need to learn and do. But if you've got those two things, it's hard to find a reason why you can't. And if you're stuck and you're one of those people out there who are stuck you can, in somebody who's felt like you can't do it because of a background issue or something you struggle with, like, get some assistance and get to the other side of that. You can do that. And um, and I always want to encourage people who feel stuck to you know, get unstuck, reach out, reach out, do what it takes to get to the other side of it, because it's worth it. So that's kind of how I think about it in general.
Speaker 1:What advice would you give to the people who are stuck in that negative thought process of oh, I'm stuck because of my background and it's only reserved for the select few. What advice would you give them to work out of that mindset and to reframe their perspective?
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that I always think about is that if one person can do it, so can you. Right, like there are plenty of people who come from terrible backgrounds and end up overcoming and becoming great. And if they can do it, you know why can't you? And there may be a thousand reasons. You tell yourself why it can't be you. But I think sometimes it's hard for people to work through that tunnel vision from their own lens. If they can find someone to help them, I think that's always beneficial because there are coaches and therapists and the world is determining how you feel about the world, which is ultimately fairly true. So I think that you know reaching out, getting some help around. That can be useful if you're really stuck in a kind of in very negative toxic patterns. But if you're not really in that place and you're just kind of negative, I guess I would start cutting out the things around you that reinforce that perspective.
Speaker 2:Usually people who feel like, oh, it's just for the select few, or no one can really do this, or the system is against me.
Speaker 2:They follow other people or have other messages like that in their world everywhere they look, and I would absolutely eliminate that and start, even if you don't like it and find it absolutely annoying, start filling your head with the people who are saying you can do it, you can win.
Speaker 2:Watching examples of people who have Like, start putting different inputs into how you think and, as I said, I think you'll find it absolutely annoying and agitating at first, but eventually you do start kind of seeing some of the optimism and the possibility and that's really what you need to get started and take one small step right. You start seeing taking that one small step, you do it and then it gives you a little confidence to do the next thing, and it doesn't have to be in business. It could be like I'm going to run my first 5K and you've never run anything in your life, and so you download the Couch to 5K app, you start in your backyard running or at the park and you do that first thing just for yourself and show yourself what's possible, that you didn't think was possible. Those types of things change people and I'm a big fan of those.
Speaker 1:What comes first belief or action?
Speaker 2:you know I'm a big fan of those. What comes first, belief or action? I think belief comes first, um, because you don't take the action without it, even if it's just a shred of belief. I'm not going to pick up a weight that's 20 pounds. For me that's a lot. Uh, I'm not going to pick up a weight and try to, you know, of 20 pounds in my right arm If I don't feel I can lift it up. Or maybe I'll try, because I do have the belief that it's possible, and then I'll discover that it's not. But I think that the belief comes first.
Speaker 2:The way in which I think about the chain in which people see the world is that there's an event or possible thing that's out there, there's a belief that you have about it, whether it's hey, I can try that, I might think that you know that could be something I could do, that seems like something that would get me to X place, and then that belief fuels an emotion around it, right, the emotion being possibility and optimism, and you know excitement, or you know even maybe a little bit of fear or hesitation, but you still take the action. When you take the sum of those emotions that push you into that Emotion tends to drive a lot of action, but the thought comes before the emotion, which usually we don't think about. And so that emotion, whether it's a little bit of hesitation with a bit of possibility and optimism and belief and excitement, can lead us to do amazing things.
Speaker 1:How do you know when you're being real versus inauthentic, when you're trying to generate that belief, If I go out and say I'm the best podcaster in the world? Just definitively not true, even if I want to get there right now. So it's when is it real and hyping you up versus when is it inauthentic and maybe dragging you down because you're not being honest with yourself.
Speaker 2:I would ask why that question is important, and so I guess I would throw that back on you and ask a little bit about why it has to be, why we have to kind of work in the reality of us being less than another person, and I guess I just kind of wonder what that question. If you could tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think of when we're trying to generate evidence of who we want to be or who we want to become. If I'm trying to generate that belief in myself, I don't want to create a false reality where if I tell myself I'm the best, maybe I trick myself. I am the best, I don't have to continue to work as hard or one of those things, or I walk around with this arrogance even though I'm not the best yet, but I'm thinking that I am and I don't want that to inhibit behavior that gets me there.
Speaker 2:Got it. That makes a lot of sense. So I guess that I would reorient that frame and say do you feel you have the potential to be better than what you are? And you look at people who are amazing podcasters and say, hey, do I have the potential? What can I learn, how can I upskill, what can I do? And begin to see that as possibility.
Speaker 2:To me, that's a real driver. I would never sit in the fact that I am not as good as X. I just wouldn't sit in that or stay in that. I would kind of pivot to I have the possibility to be better than I am. And I look at X and Y and see what they do right and how they gain traction or momentum or what they get from the people that they speak with. And these are things that I can do to, like next year, increase viewership by X.
Speaker 2:And so I really pivot quickly from things that are kind of reductive or minimizing to the self, because I think that when you sit in those things, then what do you do with it? Right? Like that's the thing. I think that when you sit in those things, then what do you do with it? Right? Like that's the thing I think about, like, what function does it serve? Which is why I asked that question.
Speaker 2:Like if you say, hey, I'm not as good of a podcaster as I don't know Lex, and then you say, well, okay, what do you do with that? Either you sit in that and you go well, I'm just not very as good as X. But either you sit in that and you go well, I'm just not very as good as X. Or you can say, hey, let's pivot that and say, instead of sitting in, I'm not as good as someone to pivot and sit in. Okay, this person does a lot of stuff right, I love what they do. I'm not quite there yet. I see the potential to upskill myself. That gives you action items to push ahead. So I guess I sit in potential a lot more than I sit in, kind of, when you talk about reality, I guess I see both as equally authentic, and one is a mover and one keeps you sitting, and I want to get you to movement all the time.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I never thought of it in that way in particular. So my favorite podcaster is Chris Williamson on Modern Wisdom. I love his show, I love the way he asks questions and I always try and study his stuff, and so for me and I enjoy Joe Rogan's too he has a unique interview style in himself when I try and correct and critique myself. I guess I never thought of it in the way of like don't compare myself to him, but just use him to elevate or model myself. Because I think for me, even going back to my athletic career I played, you know, division one football I was always comparing myself to others, but I've always been like super driven, and so it's really hard to kind of balance that when you get the self-doubt that creeps in, it's like I'm not there yet. I'm not that person, I want to be that person, and I guess I just wasn't framing it right in terms of my own personal growth.
Speaker 2:What's really fantastic is that you kept that drive despite the comparison, because a lot of people that comparison kills their drive. They'll say, you know, I'm not this person, so therefore you know I'm just going to. You know, kind of give it up and you just kept driving. And I think, as an athlete, what's really fantastic about that background is that you understand, like, the thing I love about athletes is that tangible work shows tangibly like there's a real payoff that comes and can come from the work that is put in in a very different way. But, yeah, I try to look at you know you, you will never be, you know Chris or Joe or any of them, but you can be a version of yourself that is, you know, incredible and extraordinary, by using kind of the best of the things that you see around you and it's you know. There are so many levels to it, whether it's just style or marketing or exposure or you know a thousand different things, but seeing it as you know, almost reverse, engineering less and less comparison of where people sit, in particular areas of where they're at.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I always try to get people to motion because I think, you know, even one of the things that people don't kind of recognize is that even kind of challenging behaviors have a function. So, like you always want to ask yourself when you're stuck, like what is kind of, what is the function of what I'm saying? Where will it get me? And if it doesn't kind of make you move in a particular direction, you're always moving right. So it's either going to keep you more stuck or kind of negative or sitting on a sideline, or it's going to push you forward. And you can often hear it by what people you know say and state and how they talk about things. And so you know, with comparison it's a very dangerous game, I think, and it's why I think once you get to a certain point you don't want to necessarily ever be comparing, but rather learning from and almost seeing these individuals as people who can give you something really to up-level your own game if you continue to have that drive.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I wonder the element of self-awareness and if sometimes being too self-aware is worse than being less self-aware, because when I look at myself and always try to articulate things that I'm going through so people can understand that this is hard. When I first started out, I had eight listeners. Right now I'm up to a couple hundred a week, which is awesome. But I even go back to my athletic career and it's. I have innate talent. I can run fast, I can jump really high, but that people don't see how hard I actually worked. And so I was a five nine white defensive back. I was always the only like white kid in a room and I wore that with a badge of honor, to be honest, because I was the cool white kid. I said I was going to avoid controversy. I hope that's not controversial but I worked really, really hard and I wonder, even in this space I'm going to work hard.
Speaker 1:The one thing I'll always give myself credit for is I don't know how to quit. It kills me that thought. But it's like, where does my innate talent lie in this? I've had certain people tell me things but it's like, where do I see it in myself and how much of that can actually move forward. Am I in the right space? Am I doing the right things? The one thing I know is I love doing this, I love having conversations, I love learning, so I have signs and directions that I'm doing the right thing. I think the part that hits me is that self-doubt I'm not growing as fast as I wanted. Even though I am growing, I don't have the whatever viewership that I hold myself to, that standard of, and it's trying to figure out internally. How do I quiet that voice more often than it is talking to me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of the things that you said that I loved is that the message you tell yourself is I don't know how to quit. That's how you define yourself. It's how you've always defined yourself, even when you were working hard on a team, um, and even when you know it didn't seem like um, you know things were, you know set in a direction like, even with the, uh, with podcasting, that things are not moving as quickly as you might like the with podcasting, that things are not moving as quickly as you might like. The thing about that that's interesting is, if you look at people like Gary Vee, right, posting on YouTube literally for years, doing like jelly bean wine combinations nobody watching his videos, I think it was like three years like nothing Well, I mean very few, but really nothing compared to who he is today. And I always think about you know, even myself, right, I posted I used to do an open office hour on Twitch. I tried that years ago and I was like, okay, I was coaching a globally competitive esports team and I thought, okay, I've made all of this kind of progress, my team did fantastic, they had millions of viewers. Right, esports is huge and I'm going to open up this office hour. I'll be there just for free. People can ask me anything they want. And I think, like two people showed up, I said I would do it for a year. I held to that and maybe it grew to like 22 people would show up on a regular day. And you know what I just learned? Not my thing, that's fine, but I had great conversations. I learned a lot. I understood where my value was and I began to kind of lean more into areas of people who maybe were more of my demographic, maybe were more of my audience.
Speaker 2:And I think that everybody, like we, have to look at life as kind of an experiment and not get to like where can you adjust? What can you optimize for? Sometimes it's going to be your space, sometimes it's not, but persistence matters. And I think that if you feel like you know you love the podcasting space, you love where you're at and the viewership isn't necessarily where you want it to be, then it becomes kind of a like. This becomes the next game is how many viewers can I get? How can I begin to kind of pull them into what I'm doing? How do I begin to like learn from those who are getting great organic views or great, because there's a whole machine behind those folks that you love. Right, like it isn't just, you know, joe Rogan throwing it out into the wilderness and Joe was like calling. I think he was doing what MMA you know, years ago, right? So these people have built audiences, oftentimes in other ways. And how do you get your audience? How do you find your people? So there's a lot more to podcasting than speaking with people and having great conversations.
Speaker 2:I think it's also about using the media and how it operates.
Speaker 2:Right, they love clickbait and they love controversy and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:But if you love it, if you want to succeed in it, I think that there is a lot of other places that you can dive into and tweak and adjust.
Speaker 2:But there's also an openness that you never know where life is going to take you and that maybe starting out here ends up a place that you can't anticipate right now and you have to hang in there to see the other doors that become available to you. And the other doors you can see. But it's going through that first door that allows you to see those other doors that are available to you and it could be, you know, maybe there's a sponsorship opportunity on the other side, that then you know kind of funds you and you don't have to think about certain elements of it and now you can focus your attention on maybe hiring somebody who does the marketing piece, or you know, like there's all sorts of things that you can't see right now. It's just about being open, doing your thing, not giving up and, you know, seeing life as kind of an experiment that either is giving you information that's going to push you in one direction or another.
Speaker 1:Do you think we spend too much time on our thoughts?
Speaker 2:I don't think most people spend enough time in their thoughts, but I think that some people will overthink. So I don't know what end of the spectrum that you're on. You tend to seem like an overthinker, but I think most people don't think enough about it and they kind of wander through life in a just flowing on the ocean of life and then they wonder in 20 years why they aren't where they had hoped to be. There has to be intentionality and deliberate action, and I think most people are not deliberate about the most important things in their life, whether it's hey, I want a great relationship, but what are you doing to make it great? What's the intention? What are the actions you're doing?
Speaker 2:You want to have a great career, but what are you doing to move yourself forward in that career? How are you actively participating in that? And so I think that most people don't think enough about some things in their life and they overthink others, like maybe what they're wearing or how people perceive them, or some of those elements, and those aren't the important elements. You will work those things out. If you can get yourself straight and get your life where you want it to be, those other things come, but the most important elements of life. I think we are not intentional and I think most people will underthink and underact in the things that matter.
Speaker 1:One thing you said there is you know the way we dress, the way we look, worrying about other people's opinions. Is it ever possible to just stop caring about what other people think, particularly people you have no real affiliation with? Just stop caring about what other people?
Speaker 2:think particularly people you have no real affiliation with. I think that you have to understand the drivers of those comparisons and you know why do you care about those things. And if you can start answering those questions, I think that you start getting at the real drivers, to what keeps you stuck in those cycles, real drivers, to what keeps you stuck in those cycles. You know so, for example, you'll find that some people will post on Instagram or post these things because they want people to view them in a certain way and you know they compare themselves to you know guys who have certain cars or people who are doing certain things, and you know, behind the scenes it's about a feeling of affiliation, a feeling of success, wanting to kind of bolster their own self-esteem by kind of being able to pair with it and kind of have parity with those individuals. And so if there's a lack of self and internal kind of compass, I think sometimes we seek the external to validate us. And so you know the internal and it's why, you see, sometimes these super successful guys are and women are kind of quirky right, like they're kind of sometimes a little odd and they, you know, I don't think that people would describe Musk as your average everyday guy. He's kind of a unique personality. He's kind of quirky, he does his own thing, he kind of posts odd things sometimes, but he is uniquely himself and that works for him.
Speaker 2:I think that Jobs was uniquely himself, for better or worse.
Speaker 2:I think we can say that about everyone.
Speaker 2:But it's why when we think about great folks, we think about them as unique, are reducing ourselves and we're fitting in and almost blending in to a crowd of people who are all the same. That distinctiveness that you hold feels like otherness initially and it does for everyone. You know like if you read biographies of these same people you know like they weren't always the most popular kid in school and they felt different and they felt a little kind of odd compared to everyone else. But that is rewarded on the other side of your success, it's just penalized beforehand. So I think a lot of times in my book when you feel different from others and you compare yourself to others and it's like it feels bad, I mean I would see that as a badge of honor that you are not like everyone else out there, because that will end up being the foundation to a lot of your distinctiveness, if you can hold onto it. If you let yourself blend in, it's a way of keeping yourself under a ceiling, because you'll be much more reticent to break out of it later.
Speaker 1:As you become more in tune with yourself and answering some of those questions, is it normal if you find yourself wanting to interact with less people and be more specific and intentional with the people you hang out with and speak with?
Speaker 2:I think so. I mean it's because you want inherently, if you are driving for more and if you are ambitious and if you have certain goals for yourself. There are. I think the majority of people are not going to relate to a lot of the ways in which you're approaching life and you don't want to seek people by which you have constant criticism or judgment. Or you know you're saying no to going out on a Friday because you really want to work on your website, or, you know, drive traffic or try this new ad technique.
Speaker 2:I mean the people who don't get that are either going to weed themselves out or you're going to have a stressful relationship with that person that's going to go on an ongoing basis. Isn't it better if you have people who kind of get it and you say and they're like, oh, you know, colin can't come out because he's doing X, y and Z, and they text you and they're like go crush it bro. And you know they do their thing, you do yours and you hook up later down the road Like that's such a more rewarding relationship with other people than always having to fight against the tide. So I think if you keep those people you're, you're setting yourself up to have a harder path ahead.
Speaker 1:What role do you think family plays in this? If they are unintentionally in adversary and what you're trying to achieve, how do you navigate those relationships?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I think a lot of people face that. I think that with family, you know they're not people that you can necessarily, you know, drop. So I think you keep your interactions with them. You know, positive, superficial and you kind of don't.
Speaker 2:There's a saying, it's a biblical saying, that you don't toss your pearls among swine, right? Not that your family is swine, but that the whole saying is really around you don't give things to others who can't take them in and appreciate the things that you're giving them. And I would not be sharing my goals and struggles and aspirations with people who can't be supportive and positive. But if you have to have those people in your life, and you want to have them in your life, I think you keep those interactions about like talking about the weird drone situation and talking about superficial things and news things and positive things and being optimistic.
Speaker 2:And if they say, hey, well, how is this going If they're not looking for it, to really care about it and they're just kind of poking at it a little bit, it's going great, still working at it, it's coming along right, like you kind of keep it at a superficial level. It does a few things. One is that it preserves the relationship, but secondly, it keeps you from getting hurt, because those people matter and so when they say things, they know your pain points, they know the things to say that are particularly hurtful, and you don't want to be end up as the 40, 50 year old person who's still living to please mom, and you know what that happens. It's strange to say, but it absolutely happens. So you don't want to get to the end of your life and not have really given it your all on something that you want to do because someone else kind of held you back or judged you for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is something I've been going through with my own family, my parents so I have a divorced family to throw a little wrench in the things, and my dad, my stepdad, my mom all serve different purposes in my life, but this is something that they can't appreciate all the time my desire to not just be an investment banker in New York they hate it.
Speaker 1:Or that I wasn't a lawyer they hate it. And the same things that they say would make me successful in that I'm like well, I can apply those same concepts into something else and they are supremely negative. And it sucks because I do want to share my successes and the growth with them, because anytime it comes up, it just deflects right back into how I'm underachieving and you know, whatever in my capacity, and it's. Those conversations are exhausting, like you said, and it I just don't want to have those conversations, and so for me it's been. I've had to learn how to segment my life and my parents, and so I know that other people deal with this, and so it's a really important question and I appreciate that answer because it's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it comes back around later. You get to the other side of it and then they're like we always knew you could do it, we always knew that you had right. And then it's like, well, let's recount history a little bit. You didn't always kind of know. But I do think that you have to be protective, like you have to protect yourself in those situations and protect your headspace, because let's just say that you're having a really negative conversation and then, hey, you have a boom, you have a guest right In an hour and you've got to be on and people have just told you about all these negative things about yourself.
Speaker 2:How are you going to put yourself forward in the world and does that impact you? And then it's you know it's actively doing harm to your headspace, to your presentation, to how you show up in the world, because there's a part of many people who would say, well, what if they're right? Right, what if it's true? And you know, the messages that you want in your life right now and kind of coming in your headspace about your career are things that are going to amp you up, give you energy, make you try, and sometimes, when you talk about it being exhausting, I mean that takes your energy and let's say it just sips 30 minutes to like an hour of your energy. At the end of the day, you're just worn out by a negative conversation. An hour of your energy at the end of the day you're just worn out by these negative conversation that's an hour of of energy that could have been spent in in your work, but also it could be days worth of, you know, optimism, positivity, you know, and maybe because of that you don't reach out to the person that you normally would have reached out to.
Speaker 2:Maybe you feel a little hesitant around things that you wouldn't normally feel hesitant around, and that hesitance then, you know, kind of creates a it's a real looping effect with self-esteem.
Speaker 2:When you hesitate and you don't do the thing, then you see yourself not doing the thing, and then you don't do the thing and then you kind of beat yourself up over it. And I should be, you know, like so there's this whole thing, whereas you take the chance, you get the positive thing, and that's a whole looping effect too. So, you know, negativity takes a toll that extends far beyond just that hour of productivity. It's about, then, the risks you take and how you think about yourself and the people you reach out to and you know all of those other things, that really ends up holding you back, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They said I couldn't do this, Now I think I can't do this, and now see, I'm not doing this. So you want to make sure that you're facilitating the right loops in your life, the right reinforcement loops, and sometimes that means how you share has to shift.
Speaker 1:I've become pretty cutthroat and ruthless, just having learned from some of these and who I have conversations with and what I have them about, even outside of my family, and really trying to dictate the people who have access to me in different domains, dictate the people who have access to me in different domains. Sometimes it feels selfish because they're people I used to care about and so I wonder sometimes am I doing the right thing? But I will say I've become someone who's it's hard to get to me. Now I have a pretty strong belief in what I'm doing and what I can accomplish. So it's hard to get to me, but sometimes I need to get away and I don't know if that's selfish, if that's right, particularly if it's someone I care about or if I'm doing the right things. That's sometimes the internal battle I have is am I doing the right thing by kind of pushing this person away?
Speaker 2:I think about how you would define selfish versus self-preservation and like how do you think about that? That's a. That's something I would really tease a part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, never been asked that question. If I were to give an answer, self-preservation is when I'm doing something what I would say to protect my energy to fuel a future action. Yes, I would say, would be if I'm doing something that has no real intention or benefit in the future and I'm just doing now for myself, regardless of someone else's feelings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so do you see self-preservation as selfish.
Speaker 1:I don't, but I think it's hard for other people to see the difference from the outside.
Speaker 2:I agree 100%. And so it's then whose world? Whose definition then? Do you allow, their definition of what is the expectation?
Speaker 2:Again, that's like a very external reference point versus your own, and part of the challenge, I think for some is making sure that, as you're moving forward in the world, that it's really understanding your internal reference point, not others' definitions of what your behaviors are, but what you know to be true, right and being able to stand in that. And that's hard to do because it does get a lot of misunderstanding from other people and you can explain it. You know to some extent, but you know oftentimes it's not useful to even do that right. You just you engage in the ways that are going to be beneficial moving forward. You do it in ways that are, you know, not being a jerk and being caring about it, but at the end of the day, you know how much does preserving yourself matter to you and what does it cost you? If you don't, and if that cost is something that you can't bear, then you have to think about how you protect it.
Speaker 2:Internal reference points block out a lot of the things that we've kind of discussed today.
Speaker 2:You know's comparison to others like what do you know you can do, whether it is how other people are interpreting what you're doing or taking on.
Speaker 2:What do you know to be true, what do you want? Who are you? What do you know you're capable of, I think become incredibly important because as that internal reference point gets larger, the voice and comparisons of others get smaller and quieter. Because you begin to kind of, what you know to be true becomes so large within you that it becomes a guiding force, and not that unapologetic, is again like arrogant or bad, but that you know what needs to be done to be able to preserve your own path ahead and to be able to fulfill yourself and your life and your happiness. And that happiness is important. And I think self-sacrifice is a value a lot of people hold, with good reason, but it should not come at the expense of your own life's path. So it's something very deep to consider and just kind of, how do you nurture that internal reference point, that internal sense of self, and keeping that as your reference point and not other people for other things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the mantras that I've decided to adopt is to be misunderstood as a compliment, if everyone understands what you're doing, you're probably not doing something special enough, and that's something that in these moments that really guide my light.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could understand that. That's a great mantra. I think that it's definitely a hard one to live, but it is a great one to have because you see it in everyone great everyone so it's really a fantastic way to move ahead.
Speaker 1:One of the times we first connected on social media was actually a couple years ago in reference to the quarterback series with Mariota Kirk Cousins and Patrick Mahomes and I'm so fascinated with quarterbacks in the NFL Probably one of my number one obsessions is what's the difference between the Mahomes of the world and the Kirk cousins of the world, who are both really talented in their own way, but Mahomes in those moments is just an absolute killer. Where Kirk, I think he's really good in those moments, but not to that level. So it's like what is the separator between elite athletes in those moments?
Speaker 2:I mean it's really interesting because there's a clear separation between Johnny Manziel right, what they showed, and I mean I don't even know that. That's a question we need to discuss.
Speaker 1:I want to say this about Johnny Manziel real quick, which is one of the craziest things ever when you watch that documentary on him. Regardless of all the issues, for him to be able to be that naturally good without any preparation, I'm like that's insane. So he's like someone who I look at as like I want to influence his behavior. Like what do we need to do to influence his behavior? We can come back to that, but continue.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, You're absolutely right, because you know how they say that like talent that works hard is, uh, is an incredible thing. If he, just if, if there would have been a way to say, please, johnny, like just just kind of give it up, give up all that crap and like focus in because you've got it Like he had, has and maybe still has so much talent, it was absolutely incredible. I had the same feeling, honestly. So we're on the same page, um, but when you see Mahomes, like there is an obsession in how he approaches his training, how he watches and studies his um, it's, it's almost academic how he watches and studies others he's watching, you know kind of tape. He's very I think that he is talent working hard, because he definitely has natural gifts and instincts about how he plays the game With Kirk. You know, kirk it's hard to say, you know, I don't know if his talent is as strong it's. You know, I don't know, I can't judge, I don't know him to judge him and we only know what we're shown through this series. You do see that he does expand and spend time in other areas that are a little less about football and I kind of wonder if that even those variables, because at that level everyone is so good that, like you know, kirk, compared to everyone else, is still, you know, exceptional, exceptional at what he does. And so when you get to that level where everyone is exceptional, it's like the Olympics, right, the difference is the 0.02 seconds that you're able to, you know, kind of crank that out. And what makes the difference in those 0.02 seconds? It can be the fact that, like you know, patrick watched more tape. He did different things in the gym, he has a different type of training or trainer, he focuses in a different way, he has this one thing he does that's a little bit different.
Speaker 2:So it's it's hard to say these, these shades of difference in the greats, but Patrick always strikes me just genuinely as incredibly gifted, incredibly talented and he works incredibly hard. And when you put those two things together, it's just, he's a phenomenal, phenomenal quarterback, just his talent. I think also he has had the if we want to talk at all about luck. He hasn't been injured in significant ways in quarterbacks. Often, I mean, you see them get sidelined in just absolute tragedy, like was it RG3? Just a fantastic quarterback, but man, that injury. You know, people get taken out by terrible things and you know, patrick doesn't stay in the pocket, so he puts himself out there to get injured all the time, but he really doesn't, and so I think that there's some some real good fortune in that as well. That allows him to continue his career ahead, but he takes some hard hits, and so it's hard to answer that question.
Speaker 2:I don't have enough information. I wish I did. But I can say, you know, patrick clearly is talent, working hard, and if there's anything to pull from that, it's that you know, you see that across even in business and in professions is that if you can tap into the things that people are already great at, and then you put a lot of effort behind those things, you just get this hockey stick trajectory over and over and over again. And it's why, when I work with people who are at really high levels of operation, what I'm always thinking is what is this person exceptional at? And let's try to get rid of everything that isn't that. I want their energy pushing toward everything that they are exceptional. I want their energy pushing toward everything that they are exceptional at, and that's different with different CEOs, with different founders, with different people in business, and so I'm trying really to make sure that I see what that is just very, very clearly. And usually they know what it is but they feel bogged down in like 80% of their day are things that are not those things. And so for anybody who wants to be exceptional, you find that one little thing you're great at and you just lean into that with everything that you have.
Speaker 2:And it's why you know and I don't want to come across you know arrogantly, but it's why, when people will ask me like hey, can you do this group work? Can you work with co-founders? Like that's not my area of strength. I'm probably decent at it, right, I can probably do a good job, but that's not where I'm really strong. And I know where I'm really strong and what I'm really good at and I'm going to sit in that space and that's all I'm going to do and I protect that, even though I get offered other things, I won't do it.
Speaker 2:And the reason is that if I start diluting myself with things where I think I'm more exceptional, then I'm going to have to. A few things are going to happen. One is I'm going to have to watch myself be above average at something or average, and that makes me feel horrible. I don't want to be that, I don't want to look at myself in that way and I don't want to see myself operating in that way. I think it detracts from me, it detracts from my energy, don't want to look at it, don't want to do subpar stuff.
Speaker 2:And so I think if we see ourselves doing great things and we see ourselves above average at those things and we see ourselves exceptional at certain things, man, that just gives us energy, right Like it makes us feel amazing. It's like when you were in a game and you did your job brilliantly and you just feel like your muscles light up because you're almost high on that stuff. That's what you want to be in. You want to get more of that stuff. And so at the beginning you have to do stuff that you aren't great at I mean, we all do. But as you scale and as you get better, you want to sit more and more into the things you're really great at and that, like any quarterback, like any athlete, like any business person, if you're already above the herd on it and you put energy into it, you really go where nobody else can catch you and that is a great, because everybody working hard are going to become great or good at something right. They're going to become above average and good, but will they be exceptional? I don't know. I think that you have to. There has to be a bit of a gift and a talent to be exceptional.
Speaker 2:Hard work alone doesn't make you exceptional. Like you know, I can run, or even in my youth, like I was a terrible runner, I can run, or even in my youth I was a terrible runner. I'm not fast, I just suck at it. It's awful. You could have had a trainer training me every day of the week to try to get to the Olympics. And man, Sha'Carri Richardson is going to kick my tail. She is a beast and a force of nature and she's got wheels. I don't have them. I never will have them. I never will have that kind of gift that she's got, and I admire it, and I think that's why, too, the people like us, like both you and I, admire the people who really are great, because you know what it takes and you respect the fact that they found, like Simone Biles and others, they found their gift in this world and they put everything behind that gift and it is a beautiful thing to watch and I feel privileged to watch it when I do.
Speaker 1:Have you ever seen the Seinfeld skit talking about the Olympics? They're talking about a sprint. I'm going to rotate to the side here to prove this point. It was like the difference between first place and never heard of you before in my life is this to this Talking about sprinters? And he's like, literally, that's the difference between gold medal best in the world and never heard of you before in my life. And for those of you who are listening, not watching, it's like a centimeter of head difference, maybe an inch of head difference that determines in his joke. Do we maybe not talk to competing athletes enough when they're starting out, how hard it is to get to those points in the capacity to take on pain that you need to be willing to withstand?
Speaker 1:to achieve these things, or is that something that we should reserve till after they start, so we don't crush their dreams?
Speaker 2:I would reserve the. I don't want to say I guess I would reserve the pain as warning. I don't think that I'd want that, but I think that you have to. There's a few things like a couple of different folks would probably tell you that you know, when they first started out, they started out because they loved it and they felt they were good at it, and I don't want to take that away from people, or football, or you know some of the elite wrestlers and some of these other things. Like I don't want to take away that natural joy that you have by telling you that, hey, you know you're really great now but you're going to have to really like, do 10 times more to become elite. What I hope is that that natural kind of gravitation, that natural engagement that they kind of want to learn and they want to get better, and that then, as they meet these barriers, to kind of begin to instill those ways in which they can become like when they see these other athletes, which they will.
Speaker 2:You might love your sport, but all it takes is going to your first state championship to see the people who are just like on another level. And so you see those people and you're like, wow, you know, did you see Brian? He was like he was an absolute monster. You go, well, you know Brian does X, y and Z, like I heard. His training routine is whatever. All right, well, let's like, let's really dig in and let's see what we can do, right, and you have a trainer who believes in you, et cetera.
Speaker 2:I don't want to take away the joy and the vigor by you know saying, well, you know you still can't unless you do X, but what I do want to do is say, hey, if you've got like, if you're already up here, let's see what we can do. And you, there was a trainer who worked with Michael Phelps and I think that was a really fantastic at that kind of calibration and, you know, saw the potential, both because he has, uh, you know, just freakishly developed body for swimming Uh, he has a great wingspan and you know he's just built for the sport but also, you know, knew how to push and knew when to kind of lay back on that push. And you know, michael's inherent wanting to win gave it kind of lended itself to wanting more of what it took to be that winner. And that's kind of the ultimate collaboration that you want, of the ultimate collaboration that you want.
Speaker 1:I'm about to start working with a group of former college players training for the NFL Combine and NFL Pro Day, and I always struggle with the message of most of you guys.
Speaker 1:At some point in your career, if not all of you are going to get cut, and it's you have to determine, like, how committed are you to living this lifestyle? I have former teammates who've been cut 20 times not an exaggeration. I have teammates who have flown to a new state, packed up their bag, left to go on the practice squad and by the time they get off that plane they're cut. Wow. So the wherewithal to try and endure the NFL lifestyle is really, really hard. That's why I struggle with the message, because I don't want to bring these guys down as they're training for their dreams. But it's hey, you have to train with the purpose and intent that you may get cut 20 times. And if you really want to achieve this and this is something you're really driving for and want to accomplish you have to have some type of resilience that you maybe not have had up to this point.
Speaker 2:Well, things that are really interesting about the NFL and I've certainly done some work there, and I think the thing that really shocked me when I first started was how much the combine matters. That moment doesn't matter if you had an incredible career in college, right Like that. That moment is going to determine you know where you stand in in many ways and then where you stand is where you're picked and you know like there's a lot of things that end up feeding into that. It is a tough game to be a people don't recognize like behind the NFL machine. It is a lot harder than you think it's. Also, there are relationships, right Like you're. If you've been on a team, for example, and then you are, you're kind of no longer on that team in the coming year. You're a free agent. Like your relationships matter. You have to keep those relationships. You've got to be talking to, you know different coaches and you've got to know, like other people, you've got to be sending out tapes and not be shy about recording what you can do and not expect that everyone's going to come to you. You have to be kind of proactive sometimes in these things. You know when people are trying to be a part of the NFL. Also, you know relationships with other players can be useful, but I think that you know, as people are really pushing to be in the NFL one of the I don't I think at that level they've already done college or, you know, have done well in the past. I think it's important to say, like, you know, you need to really train hard and I, but I would be really cautious about scaring them from the importance of the combine, because it is so important. I would want them to just religiously be understanding that if you are not at what you would call your absolute peak, you've got to try to push to get there. This is an incredibly important moment for you and while there always are outliers I mean we all hear the story of Tom Brady and you know, like that whole thing it's an outlier for a reason Like that is not the normal story and that's what makes it compelling. So you are probably not going to be the Tom Brady story. You're probably going to be.
Speaker 2:You know the other people who are part of this mix and so you want to be absolutely exceptional and that means I hope that you know.
Speaker 2:What's really funny is I usually with the folks that at least I'd known, their diet isn't always on point, but the other things their workouts are usually pretty on point and they will, you know, like, if you know you're going to be practicing with a team, start getting up early and doing that stuff Now.
Speaker 2:Don't just go midday like start replicating what you would have to be a part of, like get up early, go work out, take a break, go work out again, like understand run routes or whatever it is that your particular position is um, do the things that you need to do, but I would, if you were working with a group of those guys, I would absolutely um do the things that you need to do, but I would, if you were working with a group of those guys, I would absolutely um be just uh relentless about the fact that they need to. Wherever they are right now, they need to really push to be at their absolute best and whatever that means for them. You want to walk on that field and feel like a God that you are have prepared for this and so hopefully I mean best of luck, because that is a, that's a big moment for those guys and what a privilege to be, an exciting to work with them and get to see what happens on the other side and then watch them on TV, hopefully, and that's an exciting thing.
Speaker 1:It's one of the best things in the world, but can't thank you enough for coming on today. Ladies and gentlemen, dr Julie Gerner, thank you. If people want to reach out to you, if you have anything that you're working on that you want to promote, please take the time to do so now.
Speaker 2:Sure, If you'd like to. I usually distill some of the insights from working with people who are at the top of their game. In my sub stack it's called Ultra successful. It's one of the top 10 business newsletters on sub stack, but we give insights that probably can make everyone's game a bit better.
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Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
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