Athletic Fortitude Show
Athletes all over the world endure countless mental physical and psychological adversities over the course of their careers. We are here to bring you the solutions to those adversities with some of the top professional athletes, coaches, and sport and performance psychologists around the world!
Athletic Fortitude Show
The Hidden Psychology Of Elite Performers - John Hittler
This episode features a captivating discussion with CEO John Hittler, who shares invaluable insights on leadership, relationships, and resilience. Through compelling stories—including a harrowing tale of being kidnapped at gunpoint—John emphasizes that true growth occurs when we prioritize people over processes, harnessing our unique talents and fostering genuine connections.
• Importance of relationships as the true currency in leadership
• Balancing charisma with substance in business
• The significance of discernment in decision-making
• Choosing compassion over conflict in challenging situations
• The necessity of discovering and leveraging one's “genius talent”
• The dangers of hustle culture and the value of balance
• Attracting exceptional talent through compelling missions
• Reflection on personal experience to influence leadership style
Welcome back to the show, everybody. On today's episode we have John Hitler. John is a CEO, trusted advisor and coach who blends his experience from founding nine companies with 15 years of coaching CEOs in order to help CEOs scale their companies. John's playful style brings out the best in the CEO, such that the CEO can bring out the best in the team. John believes strongly that the relationships are true currency and the scaling occurs with the people leading the process rather than the processes leading the people. Clients engage on average of five plus years as the return on investment continues to be evident year after year.
Speaker 1:This is a really fun conversation, a little bit different of a flavor this week, but we will talk about a lot of concepts of leadership, overcoming adversity. We will talk about a lot of concepts of leadership, overcoming adversity and some unique stories, provided John's very unique last name. And this episode is brought to you by All Black, everything Performance Energy Drink, the official energy drink of the Athletic Fortitude Podcast, available in Walmart, meijer and select GNC franchise locations. And on today's episode, john Hitler. Did you ever watch Fresh Prince of Bel-Air?
Speaker 2:You know what? There was a period of about 10 years where I didn't, because I was married at 18, had a one-year-old child and I was a full-time university student with a full-time job, and so we didn't even have a tv for like a decade, and I think it was probably. There's a whole bunch of series where people say, oh, yeah, you know, like then they were right. Oh, saved by the bell.
Speaker 2:It's like I, I know, I love to say but right, uh, it's like so I just missed a whole decade of essentially television culture in the early 80s and even late 80s. I just lost basically the 80s, I lost all of it. So I was like, oh okay.
Speaker 1:The reason I ask is there's this episode where Will's in college at this point and I forget the class, so I might mess up some of the details, but there's. It's like a theory type class and the first like assignment is stupid hard and then Will goes Like on day one.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so then Will comes in and he's like, yep, I'm going to drop the class. And then it ends up being that the class ends up being super easy, like as soon as they submit the assignment. Uh, it's like to weed out anyone who's like not serious, right. And I always wondered is there any like legitimacy to that?
Speaker 2:uh, I love it. Um, I love it. All of the CEOs I work with their number one job and they know it, but they don't think of it. This way is to paraphrasing. But essentially their commercial mission is to enable human life on other planets, got it? So now you're a Purdue or a Caltech aeronautical engineering graduate looking for your first job, you either say what if I screw up on helping people breathe? I don't know that, I'm up for that.
Speaker 2:It's supposed to repel all the wussies. And then for the people that say, are you kidding me? This sounds like a million-piece Lego set that I get to play with for the next 30 years. It should be either or, and there's no middle. But the biggest thing, you see it on dating apps as well. The first thing you want to do in a dating app is repel the 90% of candidates who you never want to talk to, or so tell them the truth never want to talk to, or so tell them the truth. Tell me, tell them your weird habits, because that'll repel. It's a brilliant strategy because it saves you so much darn time.
Speaker 1:And, uh, so I had no intention of going down the relationship conversation today but it's so funny because you know I'm I married, my high school sweetheart, and people always talk about advice and dating and my friends who are going through it right now, who aren't married or aren't engaged, and I always say, if you were just like your absolute self not like a jerk or whatever, but like your weird habits, you are either going to save yourself a bunch of time or you're going to find the person who loves you for your unique, weird habits.
Speaker 2:Or sees them as just like them. They may say oh yeah, I'm quirky and weird too, yeah cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we make things more complicated than they need to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, it's funny because my wife we met online it's a second marriage for both of us and her profile, the entire narrative was I'm looking for someone that shares my values. That was it. Now, she's Indian, she's very private and that's partly cultural, but and she's also very attractive. And so mine was. It wasn't war and peace, but it was essentially a manual on how to how to be interested or not interested in me, and one of the things I put in there, as I said, I have a, I have a life code, a cheat code, and I listed rule one, rule two, rule three. It's a system. But the second one was and I hold myself to this standard. I don't live up to it all the time, but this is what I hold myself to. I honor every individual as a precious child of God.
Speaker 2:Now, that doesn't say that I'm a Bible thumper, but what I'd get? I'd have women that would say I'd love to go out, and then they'd actually read the profile right before we're supposed to meet for coffee and they'd send me a text and say I don't think I can go out with you because you're a Bible thumper. I was like what? No, I didn't say I'm a Bible thumper. I don't say I'm a fundamentalist right-wing Christian. I said essentially, if God finds you valuable, who am I not to? That's what it's saying and that's a high standard. But that's the way I should treat people at my best. So that's what I hold myself to and that's part of a whole system. But that's the middle rule or command for myself. It's from myself to myself. So what I'm telling them is if you're going to be around me, this is the way I want to conduct myself. I thought that would be a strength. It was amazing how polarizing that was. I would get one out of three.
Speaker 2:I only went on about a dozen first dates and I met my first wife, but like four or five of them right before you're supposed to go out, something that this was a sex thing, and every one of them I went back and read their profile. Everyone said for religion spiritual, not religious and it was like oh, okay, so that means you what? Listen, you watch Oprah and you post. You post Deepak Chopra quotes online. Oh, okay, good, that's good. Yeah, we probably wouldn't have gotten along. Post Deepak Chopra quotes online Okay, good, that's good. Yeah, we probably wouldn't have gotten along. But it is funny because that was my purpose.
Speaker 2:I looked at it as an efficiency exercise. I'm going to date somebody. I want to get a reasonable chance that we enjoy each other's company. I went on dates and they were nice people, not the right person. It was like cool. But I met my wife and it was super obvious and I was like, okay, good, I was about the 12th of the 12th person. I was on the site for about three months, that was it and we were done and we've been married for eight years.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, people don't get it. They do it like. They do it like binge watching TV. If I can stay on the app. It's a game and I understand game theory. So I was like, oh, I get it. They don't ever let you off. They they keep throwing things back at you and say, here's your perfect matches and all that other stuff. It's like I'm not, that's not the game I want to play. So, yeah, repulsion is actually a really good strategy. You look at, I mean, you have clients too. You want to repel all the people that are going to waste your time or want stuff from you that you, you know and not, and they will never pay for it. You go no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what my business is about. So please go away. You want to repel them. You don't want to be mean to them.
Speaker 1:You about. So please go away. You want to repel them. You don't want to be mean to them, you want to repel them. That's the number one thing that I've started to actually try and implement is how do I get less leads excuse me, but more qualified, like people who are absolutely about this and who are going to come in and commit 100%, because there's nothing I dislike more than getting an athlete, or people who are just not committed and are just there Because, like you said, it's a waste of my time and theirs as well.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the thing is, it's a colossal waste of their time too. So you're actually doing both of you a service and people say, wow, I reached out to this guy, he wouldn't even return my thing. You look at him, go not a candidate, just not, just not a candidate. So yeah, it's just an efficiency thing.
Speaker 1:No, do you use that practice in in your own business building?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, yeah, my, my avatar is specific and the first time people reach out, I let them know here's who I work brilliantly with and they get 100x ROI and here's who I don't work with because I'm of no value to them. I make it about me that I suck at this. So I know exactly who that person is professionally. So that's it helps me to weed people out, because and I don't describe the people that are a bad fit in bad terms I just say here's what it normally looks like when the investment wouldn't be worth it to you. You look like this and that's still an attractive description. It's just not me. Like solopreneurs, I can't help them because they're not in a scale game, they're in a lifestyle game. It's a great. How do I build a practice by myself to take care of myself and my family? That's a great game. I'm just not in that business. So I tell people and they say, well, I'm a CEO, and you say, yeah, but you're a CEO of yourself and two offshore VA.
Speaker 1:It's two totally different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a cat. There's nothing to scale here, so I can't help you, and you'd never want to pay, you'd never want to know what my fees are, because you'd be floored by it. So why waste both of our time?
Speaker 1:What are some of those unteachable, scalable traits that people have?
Speaker 2:It's one of my favorite questions because I work with companies on scale. I'll give you two to consider. We can play with them. My favorite is charisma. Have you ever seen somebody who's trying to learn charisma or be charismatic? They look really clunky, like somebody who's trying to be humorous and what they do is they accidentally they inappropriately insert a funny story at a social event. They say, oh, a funny thing happened to me and it's all rehearsed. And you go. That's trying to be funny when you're really not funny. And charisma is the same way. We're incredibly magnetically attracted to charismatic people. Well, you tell me, what can a charismatic CEO do to help a company scale that a non-charismatic or less charismatic CEO could do? Name some of the things they can do better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think of charisma. It's just people you're naturally drawn to in their message and you're kind of willing to rally behind them.
Speaker 2:But but I'll, I'll get you tell me whether charisma helps with these fundraising. Absolutely Recruiting.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, uh, selling like promoting Absolutely Public speaking. I mean, you've got a charismatic CEO versus a non-charismatic CEO. It's a scaling mechanism. Now take another one. It's another one of my favorites, but very underrated, is dissension. People go dissension and scaling.
Speaker 2:First of all, let's go back to charisma for a second. Charisma, in my book, is unteachable. If you try to teach it or learn it, you generally just look foolish. And you see this in little kids. You're a dad, your daughter's young Nope, okay, she'll be selling raffle tickets for Little League or Girl Scout cookies or something. And you watch the kids that come to your door. You've had them come to your door and an eight-year-old kid selling Girl Scout cookies. You kind of have to buy it because it's part of the community. But you watch the ones that are good at it and you go, wow, that kid's going to make it. Where did that come from? They didn't learn it. You go they got it and they'll always have that and it'll scale in their life.
Speaker 2:Well then, take something like dissension. Dissension most people don't dissent because they're in. It's uncomfortable. But you and I are in the product development team and I say we're going to make this thing for left-handers only and I'm adamant about it. And you know, in your head the guy's full of it. There's no, that's only 10% of the market. Why would we exclude all the right-handers? Why wouldn't we make it either for both or just for right-handers and go it's way more efficient? But you're afraid to say it because it's uncomfortable and maybe I'm your boss. So people just say nothing.
Speaker 2:We end up going down a bad path because there's not the structure or the culture in place for you to be honored as a dissenter. So that's learned. That's something you can teach. That's learned. That's something you can teach. And some of my best companies the way I teach it is you simply the leader of the conversation, not the leader of the team, but the leader of the conversation, their job. Once you've sketched something out and you're deciding between A and B, what you tell them is talk me out of this. Now you're a hero for stepping up and saying well, here's my concern.
Speaker 2:Lefties are only 10% of the market. We're going to leave a ton of revenue on the table. Either we should go for righties, because that's 90% of the market, or we should do it for both and get the whole market. But really, from an efficiency standpoint, maybe we ought to just focus on 90% of the market and then introduce it for lefties six months from now. If it's a hit, that's really helpful that you dissent when I say it's, I'm a lefty, we're going for the lefty market and that's. It's actually kind of insane.
Speaker 2:But there's not the platform for you to be able to do it. You have to have some courage to do that. Able to do it, you have to have some courage to do that. You can teach dissension. It also goes really well with curiosity. So those are teachable.
Speaker 2:Scaling talents versus charisma, which you say. You have to look for it and try to hire it and you'll know it when you spot it. But there's not very many people in society as a percentage of a hundred. There's not very many people that have natural charisma. Wouldn't it be great if you're? You know you had a half dozen people probably. It's all you need in your, in your organization, that that are naturally charismatic. You get an incredible advantage. Talent, wisewise, that's a talent, that's not a skill, and that people talk about the two like they're the same. Charisma is a talent and, I would say, unteachable. There's a whole bunch of them and I'm actually writing I'm writing my fourth book on that subject, because there are some that are teachable and super good scaling, at scaling, and there's some that are unteachable, one you have to hire in and the other one you can teach your whole organization and so you can scale faster. The whole idea is to just increase the probability and pace of scale.
Speaker 1:Looking at charisma from a bigger point of view. The problem that I can see with charisma sometime, though, is because you're charismatic, you're able to hide other faults, and you're able to put yourself, or make yourself appear to be more qualified than you actually are. So when does style and substance? How do you find that equilibrium?
Speaker 2:with charisma. Yeah, what a great question. Uh, cause it's. The dark side of charisma is you can get away with stuff because, let's say, you can fundraise. Okay, that's great, you can. You can fundraise way better than I can. You can either fundraise more, faster, faster, or both. Is that the optimal amount for? Because you're going to give up a share of your company. When you do that, you say, okay, well, colin's able. Wow, you got us a seed round of 22 million and I suck at fundraising. So it's going to take me 100 presentations when it's going to take you 20. So, first of all, you save all that time and energy. That's a plus. But 22 million, you'd have to give up more of the company. Could I do it because I'm more pragmatic? Let's say I'm pragmatic, not charismatic. Oh, I can figure out how to only take 14 million and give away a third less of the company.
Speaker 2:So it's a dark side because more charisma may not be helpful, because the size of the funding that you can do because you're really good at it, in the long run comes out of somebody's pocket. You're a founder. Some of it's going to come out of your pocket. If we really do have a big hit, it cost you millions of dollars because you really didn't need $22 million up front. You could have gotten away with something significantly less.
Speaker 2:It's always a trade-off and every what we call genius talent has a dark side. Because here's the simple way to think about it Any attribute in excess becomes a detriment. So let's say you're incredibly generous, like you're just generous of time and spirit, and when Girl Scouts come to your door you buy more than you probably should, just because you're a decent human being. The problem with an excess of generosity is you become the target for everyone. They say, well, go to Colin, you need a sponsor for the annual golf tournament. He always, he always. And you go. Why am I sponsoring everything in the community? And it's because you can't not almost. And it becomes a detriment. You think an excess there's. You know, it's like candy Candy's kind of cool until you eat an excess and you go. Now I got a stomach ache and diabetes. That's not so good. Yeah, a little bit. You go. Oh, that's cool, the right amount, whatever that is, but excess it's not good.
Speaker 1:I frequently say sometimes our greatest strengths are also our greatest weaknesses, like for me as an athlete. I was incredibly intense, just competed really, really hard. Also got me into problems with officiating a lot, particularly basketball. That passion and intensity that's super beneficial. Sometimes it just crosses that line a little bit. It's finding how to maximize that unique strength or that unique talent and have you found anything that helps people really dive into their unique strengths, like charisma, and be able to find that equilibrium where they don't dip into the dark side of it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've worked with. The concept is we actually have a trademark. It's called genius talent. The theory we have is that every individual has a genius level talent and it's embedded in your DNA, which, if you do them, we don't try to prove that, but if you do the, we don't try to prove that, but if you do the logic of that, that means you're one in the history of humanity, not one on eight billion which is currently on the planet. You say no, no, this is everyone that's ever lived because dna. Except for identical twins, you'd be a one in a hundred billion. There's been about a hundred billion people that roam the earth. You think it's that specific.
Speaker 2:The trick is find it. And when you find it, um, we have a process to do that. Then then you start separating what you really do. First people say oh yeah, and then you dive into it. You say nope. First thing you do is find everything that's kryptonite for that or everything that you shouldn't be doing. That's a colossal waste of time and your list will look different than mine. But your colossal uh, failure projects for me, home repairs. Like I was raised by an engineer, we built, how you know, I roofed. I did all this stuff. I was okay at it. When I do home repair projects around my house, it's I'm three, three trips to Home Depot. There's a hole in the wall because I screwed something up and I bought the wrong tool and now I get like gosh, darn it. Now what am I going to do with this tool? And then, invariably, what I do is I call someone to do it right. Well, that's kryptonite for you. Why am I doing that at all?
Speaker 1:It's because I have this idea that I'm a homeowner and I'm quote unquote the man of the house. I'm supposed to be able to do this stuff, but the more complicated it becomes I'm going to screw it up and I'd rather just get someone from the jump here. My wife gives me a hard time about it, but I'm just like plus. I just don't want to do this. There's about 10 other a million other things I could be doing more productively than fixing some whatever faucet or sink.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, so what I did a long time ago when I first bought a house and realized I struggle with that. I didn't have the money to hire people, so I did it myself and did a lousy job. Eventually I put a whiteboard small in the garage and my spouse or my kids I have five kids if their faucet in the bedroom or in the bathroom closest to them was leaking, they would tell me I didn't really want to know, they would just go write it on the whiteboard. And I had a. There was a retirement community over 55, like the next community over. You can't put anything digitally, so I went over with like a five by seven card and said handyman needed. And so what I got was all these old guys with nothing to do who are naturally good at it. And I hired a guy and he was. When I first hired him he was nine bucks an hour and he didn't charge me for Home Depot because quote I like going there anyway For him. That was a fun day for him to just go roam the hall. He'd come in once a month, work about two or three hours. He'd fix whatever was on that whiteboard list and he would leave me a receipt from Home Depot and an invoice and I would mail him a check. And I thought what I did was I bought my Saturdays back.
Speaker 2:But our house functioned much better because I live in the Bay Area, so we've got constant seismic activity Every three or four years. None of your doors shut without rubbing. Just because you get settling all the time, it's just where we are. It doesn't mean your house is falling down. You have to adjust all the doors. You think I'm going to do that? No way, but they happen one at a time. So if the bedroom you're a kid and your bedroom, every time you shut the door you can't quite get it because it doesn't fit the frame anymore.
Speaker 2:He put upstairs bedroom on the left. The door doesn't fit and these old guys? It would drive them crazy. So they'd bring the wood plane and great, they'd take the door off. I'm not doing all that because I'll wreck it. Once you figure out I wasn't put on earth to do some things. It's good, but I was put on earth. I'll make impact by using my genius talent. That's so. The first thing is free yourself up from all that crap and then reinvest it, if you can, in activities that are much higher, higher purpose or value, and so that, yeah, I work with people a lot on that, especially CEOs. How?
Speaker 1:do you distinguish, then, when I'm good at something versus I'm great at something, versus if I'm good and I worked harder, I could be great? How do you begin to distinguish between those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'll work. You know, you and I would work together and we'd say where are you incompetent? I say, well, I suck at home repairs, cool. So that goes on that list. Where are you competent? Which means in my book it's one unit of reasonable effort creates one unit of equal value. So it's about a one for one ratio.
Speaker 2:Incompetent is three units of effort gets one unit of output. You go, that's a bad equation. Well then you go from incompetent at the bottom, competent, excellent and excellent is the trap. Excellent is often where we can get paid well or we can get reputation, but we don't get energy from it. So we use one input of effort and you get maybe three output. Three, three units of output. That's a good deal, but you hate it. Oh, you can make a living doing it? Oh, that's. That's a trap.
Speaker 2:And then, above that is genius, talent, which is one unit of input, you get multiple, more than three. But the key is it gives you energy instead of takes any energy. So you could do it like I imagine, something like podcasting. You could do a full day of podcasting. At the end and say I had the best day, I'm ready to go. Yeah, let's go out and celebrate, and excellent would be. It's a grind. I do the podcasting but I'm good at it. I get good reviews, but, man, it exhausts me by the end of the day. Same thing with almost the same amount of talent. One gives you energy and the other doesn't, and so you have to categorize those.
Speaker 2:And it's amazing how many things we do in life that we're either incompetent or competent, and so there's two rules on it. You can be incompetent if it's a parental thing, like it's part of being a parent. Nobody's coming to your house at 2 in the morning when your daughter's sick with a 102 fever. You're going to have to figure it out, and you have zero competence medically or whatnot. You go, do I take her to the emergency room? Do I? Who do I? What do I? Do you figure that out as a parent, and you have to do that all the time. And the other is a hobby. So hobbies can give you energy and you can suck at them. So you can be completely incompetent at golf and say you know what?
Speaker 1:It's my example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what it's really for me, it's about being with my buddies and being outside. I'll shoot 90. I'm not great, but I'm good enough to play and I enjoy it. You don't ever have to get better, because the purpose isn't about becoming a master. The purpose is about it's a hobby. And so paint you know people paint like, like oil paint, or you know cool. Are they going to be picasso? No, they don't have to be, but that's what they love to do, to relax. It gives them energy. You can be in comfort. So hobbies and parental things are the two, two places we make exceptions because, as a parent, you, you, you, you're already there. I mean, I'm sure you've. There's a list of a dozen things. You've figured out how to do that. You would have never guessed. You have to. As a parent, you go who? If they had told me I, yeah, she, I would have been nice to know with energy.
Speaker 1:I talk a lot about energy on my show and a lot of my guests it's. I'm curious to hear your perception of energy and work and output. Do you believe, if it's something that you love to do and you're good at it, that you really won't lose energy and you can work those ridiculous hours that people in hustle culture talk about? Or do you think that there will always be a time where you need to take a step back, reset and do other things that help recharge you as well?
Speaker 2:It's an interesting question, especially in today's society, because people have hustle culture, which I totally get. I'm a super hard worker. But imagine that you're running a script in running your business that isn't your own, isn't naturally your own, it doesn't gel with your. I'll use the word genius talent. Now imagine a world where everything you do relies on your genius talent, which means it's giving you energy all day. The other piece is you're going to be so much better than the other version of you that's grinding or hustling that you'll work half as much. So you can either reinvest that and say I can do twice as much because I'm so much better at it, or I can just work 30% less and have more of a life and still be ahead of the other model. I'm a big fan of that because my wife has a business as well.
Speaker 2:If we both went hustle culture, we'd never see each other because hers is in medicine and mine is in coaching. I have clients all over the world and they're on different time zones. I could book my calendar from 6 am till midnight based on where people are in the world if I wanted to. Not that interesting for me. So I play where I can and every day I play in coaching, I am completely energized at the end of the day, and her medical practice was wearing her out.
Speaker 2:It took her three years but she got out of it and went cash only um different specialty and now her patients pay her cash and give her a big hug at the end and she's gone. This is what medicine. This is what medicine should be. So, uh, I'm not a big fan of hustle culture for the sake of the merit badge that you get, because nobody gives a crap. They only reward you for the end result, or either the result that you give me because I pay you, or the result that the world sees because you put out a product or a service. That's all you ever get. Nobody gives a crap that you, that you're grinding it out at 16 hours a day, and especially your kids won't and your spouse won't.
Speaker 1:It's a. I look at hustle culture in a way that it's some people probably need a little bit more of that that kick like, hey, we need to go. I think there's other people out there that probably need to. You know, turn the pressure cooker down a bit. But I think the important thing that you just said was it's not a merit badge. At the end of the day, people only care about the results and the things that you kick out and the value that you provide. So if you're looking at it from your own lens, it's number one, like be good at what you do, whatever the hours that takes, but, like you said, make sure it's giving you energy.
Speaker 2:Well, the piece with and this is a it's a. It's a disease I see in in corporations. There are people that want to love their work. Here's what they get wrong. They put it on you, the employer, to make the work lovable. You're supposed to bring me work that is appealing, enriching and gives me energy and say, nope, doesn't work that way. I have to come to work and say I'm going to love this and what you'll do is you'll find the things that you love, and every role anyone has has some downside to it. But if I come with the idea that I'm going to love the work, love the team, love the culture, love the everything, it's much easier to find because your eyes are open to it.
Speaker 2:It's a victim mentality to say I only stayed there six months because I didn't love the work. It's not meant for it to be a popularity contest or a love fest. It's going to be challenging. Do you love challenges? Then go there. If you don't love that challenge, don't go there. It's your responsibility to love the work or find something else. And it's amazing to me how many people in today's market feel victimized because they don't love their work. Yeah, that's not the company or the work. It's not the work's job. The work is inherently just the work. So you can love it or not.
Speaker 1:Do you believe that there is a business to be started or an industry to be in that coincides with our genius talent?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, and it's the one that I've started nine companies. I knew what my genius talent was, but I didn't apply it very well until maybe the third or fourth company, and some of them I got into because it was a perfect fit for my genius talent, and the problem was I already had another business as well and I thought, the way I look in the world, what could possibly go wrong? What could possibly go wrong is they both need a full-time leader, and what I did several times was I had counter cyclical businesses when the economy's up, this one's good and when the economy's up, this one's bad, good, this one will be dormant and then when they flip, I'll just nope what could possibly go wrong. Problem is, when they're going like this, they both need me because one's going down and needs me because it's in crisis mode, and the other one's going up and it needs me in ramp up mode, and I couldn't balance both. For that, six to 12 months, I, and then you invariably I had to. I had to shut one down, dumb, uh. But now I only work in activities professionally that take full advantage of my my genius talent and coach and people say, oh, so your coach? Specifically, I'm a ceo coach and the difference is I get a lot of um requests to come in and work with the middle managers or senior. They'll call them senior leaders, cool.
Speaker 2:The problem is this the model for a senior leader is very different than the model for a CEO. Here's a CEO. You're the chairman of the board. I have to deal with your expectation that we're going to hit 100 this year, because that's what your financial model says. In my heart, I know if we kill it, we could hit 75. But I've got a promise or an expectation or a contract. Well, then you go to your spouse. Okay. Your spouse says oh, mr CEO, you left Google at 450 and you went to take on this flyer with some equity. But you said we get a big paycheck at five years. We're at four and a half. How are we doing? And I know we're nowhere close and it's even a coin toss whether or not we'll get a big check, am I telling myself. So that's a different promise. So I've got two of them now.
Speaker 2:Then my C-suite says well, we're understaffed. The team says we need this. Customers are saying this. Stakeholders are saying this. Investors are saying this. Stakeholders are saying this. Investors are saying this. All of them are connected to the CEO, so you've got to balance six or seven very distinct and conflicting or divergent agendas. I'm really good in situations like that, but I'm not very good where you need coaching because you don't like your boss and the three people that are reporting to you are underperforming. It's just not intricate or it doesn't get my brain going. I'm trying not to help them, but part of me says, yeah, just get over it. In my head I can't say that, but a CEO says, well, the problem is, if I do this, then this gets good and I work really well when they've got what I call seemingly impossible challenges. Very, very good in those roles.
Speaker 1:I'm not very good in linear unique trait to the CEOs and super high achievers that you've noticed, that when you notice it, you're like this person's got it. They're going to figure it out, regardless of what happens.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's so much of that. Um, what I do notice is that thing, um, if it relates to genius, talent, oftentimes the thing that they're really good at. They were chastised or teased as a kid, so something I consider ADHD a superpower for CEOs, because you think about how often they have to shift focus. Just in one day They've got to be on conference calls and negotiations and make decisions and sign off on things. Most people they don't have the focus or attention for that. Adhd allows them to juggle 12 things in the air all day, every day, and long-term objectives, and they're actually wired that way. Well, I wouldn't wish ADHD on anyone. If they had the term when I was a kid, they would have drugged me because I was that way. Now it's helpful at some levels and I have ways that I manage it because I don't need to be that. I don't need to be ADHD on steroids, that's for sure. But it's a weird thing, but it's kind of a superpower for CEOs.
Speaker 2:The one that I favor that's good for any CEO anywhere is discernment, which is an unusual word. We don't use it very much. It's a biblical word. All it is is decision-making plus wisdom, and CEOs make decisions all the time, but oftentimes they have no wisdom. They have data and that's different. Discernment is a super helpful universal skill for any CEO because it means a higher percentage of the decisions you have them be 75% successful, which is an insanely high number for a CEO. And I'm more closer to the median. I'm going to be north of 50, but probably not 60. Call it 55 or 57. So you just scale that out and go oh Collins, and you go wow, you're going to be incredibly more likely to succeed than me. And almost no one talks about it. People talk about it.
Speaker 1:Talk a little bit about the difference between data and wisdom. I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so data is facts and you see it online. People say well, I researched this, you Googled it and found an article that suits your personality, so you rearranged your biases is what you did and you're calling it research. That is your. Either the hair on the back of your neck stands up like you go, this is, or you're queasy. You go that's your body telling you. No data at all. Your body telling you this does not feel right to me. Nope, I'm not. It doesn't mean you don't do it, but you say I need more information. They go why? Here's all the data you go. Just the thought of that makes my stomach turn.
Speaker 2:The other one that we have language for. I mean, you're an athlete, you had it too, and you say my gut says they're going to do this and your gut often knows there's a source of wisdom there and we call it a second brain. Now, because you think of your gut. It's the only part of your body that doesn't need permission from your brain to act. So you're, you're not feeling well, you puke violently and there's nobody on the on the earth that says I think it's time for me. I think what I should do is go puke. No, your, your, your second brain says because it has its own nervous system, it pukes violently, either for your protection usually for your protection, your food poisoning or something like that. It doesn't need permission from your brain. You think that's weird.
Speaker 2:We have all kinds of language and the mistakes we kick ourselves for the most are the ones where you say I knew it, I knew it. My gut said this was a bad idea and I got talked into it. Or I knew it, I knew it. My gut said this was a bad idea and I got talked into it. Or I talked myself. We have those. So if you go head, which is data, heart, which is am I into this or not? Is this what I really want to do? And gut, which is the intuition, it's what I call a full body. Yes, that's discernment.
Speaker 2:Or on the road to discernment, as opposed to saying I got the mckinsey, I got the mckinsey study. It's 50 pages. Um, my team showed me all the the statistics. They're just different because one could justify a rational decision that you know in your heart of hearts and your gut, it's just, there's just something here that doesn't doesn't fit. We turn that part off. We we tend to rely more on data than we do on discernment and discern it. Discernment is um every study ever done. They don't call it discernment, uh, but intuitive, I'll call it intuitive decision making. Fine is discernment, is ranks, it scales and it works a much higher percentage of the time than does data-driven um data-driven stuff this actually applies a lot to player evaluation.
Speaker 1:Obviously you know I played football, so football comes to mind for me most of the time when you talk with executives who are scouting players to draft oftentimes the data or the analytics of a player how fast they can run, how tall they are. You know all those numbers, you put them into a database and they project this perfectly rated athlete. You watch a guy and you're around a guy. You feel his energy, you see how he is as a leader, how he interacts with his teammates, with his training staff, with everybody in the building, and you're like this guy, I don't care what he tests, I don't care as long as he's like a baseline minimum. He's going to be in the league 10, 15 years and yet, you'll see, they'll fall to the fifth round, seventh round, undrafted, and then they end up being one of those undrafted free agents that plays 10 years in the league multiple time, all pro, and people are like, oh, how could you miss?
Speaker 2:How did they miss that yeah?
Speaker 1:Yep, and the number one response I always get from people is it's easier to justify missing on the guy who rates a 10 out of 10 on the athletic scale than the guy who you had a gut feeling about, because he does everything the right way or he looks good on film but doesn't have the measurables. Coaching CEOs, how do you manage that? I guess concern of justifying a decision based on your gut.
Speaker 2:Well, in the end, the CEO is responsible. So, even if you're the head of marketing and you screw up everything, guess what? That's on me, because the language I would use is who am I that I signed off on Colin's recommendation? It doesn't mean it's my decision, but if I didn't scrutinize it or at least ask questions, then it's on me. Well, it could have been that we both agreed that that was the way to go and it was a screw-up. Well then, it's just okay, let's pivot and move on, but you could get me fired if I don't.
Speaker 2:This is more for head coaches or quarterbacks. You go yeah, you lose your job. If you go to your second read and throw an interception, that's a pick six. You go oh, how could you possibly do that? Well, in the course of a three-second or four-second play, you have to make all those decisions in nanoseconds, and there's four or five options that you have to go through really, really quickly.
Speaker 2:Speed of processing is valuable, probably more than arm strength, because you watch the guys with the physical tools like a CEO with cognitive I'll call it or skills, but if they freeze, or the killer that I see is, they wait too long. Now you want to take as much time as you have. If you have it Like if there's no reason, if it's a closed bidding process, there's no reason to be the first bid in, because you might learn something 10 days later, closer to the end of the bidding process, that changes your bid. So there's no reason to be the first one in Because they're not going to award the bid until two weeks. Because they're not going to award the bid until two weeks and you go okay. But if you don't have the time, then wow, speed of processing or even having a decision-making process including indiscernible. There's not enough time for us to make a reasonable decision here. So we're going to pass.
Speaker 2:Most people won't do that. They'll say it's due by Tuesday. Can we do a credible proposal or can we assess the risk? No, then we're going to pass on it because that just puts us in no man's land and we're likely to get killed, those sort of things. How do you rate that? From CEO to CEO Some of them have that you can teach discernment or at least you can have a sidekick that keeps you honest.
Speaker 2:I'd mentioned this idea of talk me out of it. So great, I am that guy a lot for my CEOs. They'll say here's what we're thinking. I'm just not so sure and I say well, you, okay if I talk you out of it and then I'll. A simple way is to say okay, colin, you're thinking of doing this and it's going to pay off by year end. Cool, it's December 15th 2025. You just got sued. You went, your company went under and this was a colossal failure. What went wrong? And you'll know, you'll say oh, that means that this didn't happen the way I thought and I overestimated this and the economy wasn't that you go? Well, aren't all those the things that you should do up front to investigate? And they don't. They fall in love with the idea and go, like I used, to what could possibly go wrong? A thousand things, and if you even spend 10 minutes on it, you might have a different view of the decision you're going to make, and some CEOs just don't do that.
Speaker 1:How do you find, in your own words, badass talent to help a CEO or to build an organization?
Speaker 2:in your own words, badass talent to help a CEO or to build an organization. It starts and ends with a compelling commercial mission. I mentioned SpaceX earlier. That repels my kind and gentle term, wussies, and it attracts badasses, because badasses say, wow, how are they going to farm on Mars? You don't know. Think of it this way how many miracles have to be created for Elon to succeed on putting people on Mars? Because right now we don't know how to breathe there. So that's when I say miracle, it's something that is outside of the paradigms or constraints of science as we know it. So that's when I say miracle, it's something that is outside of the paradigms or constraints of science as we know it. So that miracle has to be there Right now. It would take two years in one of his rockets to get there and two years to get back. That's way too long. So you're going to have to invent teleporting. You're going to have to be able to say, okay, we can beam you up and you'll be there in three minutes and it doesn't hurt your biology. No one's ever done that. Okay, we have to create our own food source. So you can just list these and say, wow, I get to work on that. That's a compelling commercial mission, as opposed to the opposite.
Speaker 2:You and I are both. We both come up. You come out of Purdue, I come out of Caltech and I'm worried about that. I say I don't think that's for me. I go to NASA. Guess what I'll do at NASA for the first five years of my career? I'll be like a safety compliance engineer. I'll be the one that makes sure that everyone follows protocols.
Speaker 2:When we shoot off a rocket once a year and you're at SpaceX and you say, yeah, this is our third one this month, this is the third rocket we shot off, you're blowing, you're sending stuff in the air, you're on all over and going this is great. And guess what? You're going to fail miserably a lot. Because when you try to figure out how to breathe on Mars, your first 10 attempts are going to be a colossal mess and it's like a thousand or a million piece Lego set with no instructions and no picture. You go that's how you're going to figure it out. You're going to have to figure it out by who knows what and if you love that, you're going to come there because you're badass talent and you will only attract the best and brightest. And then, when you show up, everyone on either side of you is smarter than you are, you go if you say that's awesome. But if I walk in the first day and go, oh my God, I'll never make it and I'll wet my pants, yeah, I'll quit. I'll quit after 90 days. That's how you get badass talent, because badass talent only wants to be around badass talent and that becomes the ironic thing is that actually becomes your culture Is that you come here if, and only if, you want to do the hardest and they may not the hardest the most challenging, interesting problem solving on the planet yeah, come here.
Speaker 2:Your commercial mission has to be that way and for some companies that's really hard to do because they say well, we market and sell project management software. How do you make that compelling and interesting? You say you're selling vanilla pudding to the vanilla pudding market. Yeah, who wants that? It's like you don't even have a chocolate, do you? No, we don't offer chocolate, it's vanilla only. You go, wow, why would I want to go there? Because it's like you don't even have a chocolate, do you? No, we don't offer chocolate, it's vanilla only. You go, wow, why would I want to go there? Because it's safe. So you attract safe talent.
Speaker 1:Okay, very, very different how do you deal with that failure piece that you alluded to? Because that impossible mission that spacex is talking about, dealing with that pressure of knowing we're trying to shoot for the impossible, we're going to fail every day, and to keep that energy to keep going every single day, knowing that you're attacking an impossible task it's a, it's a good question.
Speaker 2:I don't know if there's any specific way. Um, well, I don't know who said it might have, might have been einstein. Um, he said and the the day before you succeed, everyone still calls you crazy. And then once, once you succeed, they call you a genius. So that a lot of it is that way. You say how long will it take? Somebody I'm assuming it could be elon's team, but it could be basis's team he's got the origin or whatever it's called. Um, who's going to figure out how to breathe in an atmosphere with no oxygen? I don't know. And so you can. At least at this point we say you can't, you can't do it, colin and his team, they're crazy for even trying. You say until you're not, until you guys figure it out. And then they'll say colin, his team, they're amazing and they're geniuses.
Speaker 2:You either want to play in that level. You played at a super high level as an athlete and you got to the NFL. Okay, until you're in the NFL, everybody says I don't know, he's bouncing around or he's doing that. And then you're in the NFL and you go what the hell he's bouncing around or he's doing that. And then you're in the NFL. I go what the hell, he's a starter. Yeah, he's a starter. Oh, wow, he's an all-star. Wow, yeah, he's an all-star or all-pro in the NFL. Oh, he's a Hall of Famer. None of that seems reasonable until you do it. And then people say, oh, I knew he'd make it all the way. And you go bullshit. You said there's no chance. Yeah, cool Talent does that. People want to be around that sense of impossible. Talent and impossible go really nicely together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that cliche of everyone tells you you're crazy you can't do it for five years and then you get there and you do it and everyone's like I knew you were gonna do it the whole time.
Speaker 1:I was behind you the whole time. Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, where was that? When you know I was sleepless for for three nights grinding and doing everything on my own, with nobody telling me I could do it, and now, all of a sudden, I achieve it and everyone's saying like, oh, yes, it's.
Speaker 2:You know, everyone's your fan when you make it, but no one's your fan when you're going through it exactly my favorite is um rory, rory mcelroy, his dad, like at 19, his dad and his golf buddies in I think he's from northern ireland. Um, they put like a hundred thousand dollar bet amongst them that he would win the us open by 25 or something like that. And he did it two years early. But nobody knew who he was and the odds of winning the us open are insanely against everyone, because it's one guy once a year you could, and there's people that really good golfers that play on the tour for 20 years and never even had a top 10. Well, he did it and the odds of winning it was like a 50 to 1. They won just an insane amount of money. Well, that's somebody you know who was with you the whole time. It was a bit of a lark and they said you know, but imagine you're Rory and your dad's buddies and when you go home, you know, you go to the local golf club and see them all and they say hey, we're betting on you, we're behind you. Well, they really are. You think that's. That's a boost of confidence. That's different than yeah, you're crazy, you'll never.
Speaker 2:In my head, the thought bubble is you're crazy, you'll never make it. But have fun. That's what I'm thinking, but I'm saying, I'm saying I'm behind you all the way. No, no, no, I actually put. I put my own money and they were rewarded handsomely for it. But I thought it was a great story, because who has that level of? Usually your parents are like that, but your parents are biased and insane because they're not. They're not looking really at what they should. They're saying well, of course he is, he's the best guy I've ever seen. You go? Maybe not so, but other than that, who else? Your spouse, you know you hope that your spouse is that way, but we don't have very many people in life that are that way. For us, it's great when you have those.
Speaker 1:No, it's funny because, you know, having lived my own, you know some of my own dreams out and continue to try and live more. I always try and have that perspective with people who I know are going through it and who are trying to do great things, because I know how awesome it is to have someone you know, you know be in your corner and truly support you. So, you know, I always try and find those people who I think you know are, you know, badass talent, who I know are going to go through a lonely stage or going to go through you know, trials and tribulations, and try and be there for them, because I know how important that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's. It's such a boost even if they can't help you to know that they're sincere in offering, because mostly they say good luck, which is, which is not that different than FU, it's just a politer term. It's like it. Really. What they're saying is don't bother me again with this, and you go no, no, no, no, that's not, that's not so helpful, but it's socially acceptable. People do it, so it's pretty funny.
Speaker 1:Now Something I'm really interested in. You were kidnapped at gunpoint with your one year old daughter. Yeah, what was?
Speaker 2:that experience like.
Speaker 1:So you've been to california I've been to california once for like two days.
Speaker 2:Okay, good um santa cruz is um. Berkeley and santa cruz are the two places where hippies, literally hippies, literally hippies from the 70s, still run everything. And my wife at the time was an undergrad at the university. It was about four miles up into the hills because we lived on the flats right at ocean level and then the university is up a little bit. She was in the lab. She was a, as she called it, a lab rat because she was a biology major. So she was doing whatever her experiments were Every night or every other night she needed to be in the lab until like 11. Then the lab closed at 11. Fine, my job was to with our daughter. Yeah, happy to take care of her. I was home and I'd pick her up at like. You know, I'd be up there by like quarter to 11.
Speaker 2:It was horn rain this night and right on Ocean Avenue, the main drag, is a little place called B&M Market. It's like a little convenience store, not a grocery store really, but not a 7-Eleven. Fine, we needed three or four things. I thought I'll stop there, get that stuff and then go up and get it. Well, I go in there and there's this older lady, very sweet, like grandmotherly, who's like cooing with the baby, because I got the baby in there with me. We check out. I go get it in my VW bus, my 69 VW bus. It was old but the back was tricked out To get her into the front bench seat in her car seat.
Speaker 2:You have to do it from the passenger side. It's pouring rain, so I'm trying to do it quickly. Get her in there. You have to do it from the passenger side. It's pouring rain, so I'm trying to do it quickly. Get her in there, close the door, run around to the driver's side, put the key in the ignition and there's this lady that was in the grocery store with a handgun pointed around my daughter, right at me, and she says start driving. I was like okay then. Yeah, let's sure, let's go for a drive. I've got a heavy navy peacoat but I'm poor as all get out First thing. She's got like a sundress on and it's 50 and pouring rain. She said I'm freezing, take off your jacket and give me your jacket. I'm going. She's got a handgun. I don't. She gets the jacket. So I give her my jacket. We stop. I didn't go very far. I gave her my jacket and in my head the whole time I'm thinking, if my daughter's not there because imagine your daughter's to your right but she's facing forward in a car seat you have to go around like this to grab this lady's wrist or gun. I'm thinking if there's no car seat I would just overwhelm her, I'd just grab her wrist. But I can't take that chance because if the gun goes off, my daughter's right there. And I'm thinking, okay, I'm driving.
Speaker 2:We drove around for about eight hours. I could tell she was nuts, but I couldn't tell was she dangerous? And I didn't know whether the gun was loaded and I thought, do I ask her that? And I thought that's not a good question to ask her. So I drove around until about 2.30 in the morning. I finally we stopped at a closed gas station with the restrooms on the side where you need the key, and you could tell that the door was ajar, like they hadn't. It was open enough that you didn't need the key and the place was closed. So she needed to pee.
Speaker 2:They don't even have pay phones anymore, but they had a pay phone and I knew that if you dialed 911, probably from television I knew that if you dialed 911, the call would tell the location of the phone booth. So I called and what I should have said is I'm being attacked and they would have sent a car right away. Instead, I start explaining to them what's going on and they said, sir, it's a felony to do a crank call on 911. Because they think I'm making this. And afterwards I thought about it. I thought I should have just said I'm being attacked at gunpoint, come right now, and they would have. Well, she comes out of the thing, sees me. I had to hang up because she was worried that I was betraying her, because she was afraid of the police. So I had to delay and stall and the VW buses. When you put the key in, you had to hit the gas and the starter exactly or it wouldn't start. Anyone that had one knew exactly how to do it. It became second nature. But I had to delay for time because no cops had shown up and I wasn't sure they were going to. So I stalled the car for about a minute. She then thought you've called the police and I'm in trouble. So she starts walking away. But she's got my Navy Pico.
Speaker 2:It's three in the morning, it's pouring rain, sure enough. Here come the cops. As soon as the cops get out, they say oh, janice, not again. They know this lady. She's an escapee from a, from a mental hospital locally and this, and evidently she escapes a lot. Where she got the handgun, I have no idea. But then they put the, they put the cuffs on her and I said oh, oh I. They said do you want to press charges? No, I don't want to press charges, I just want to go home. They said but she's got my coat on. Oh, you're going to have to come down to the station. We'll have to process her and that'll be part of the inventory. You can pick it up in about an hour.
Speaker 2:And I was like I finally get home about 4.30 in the morning. There's no cell phones was soaked, but you can imagine she's hysterical. Santa Cruz has got some hills. She assumed we had driven off the road and were dead somewhere in a ditch, because when she got home there's nothing and I wasn't calling. I walk in. And she said when she finally pulls herself together, enough. She said where the hell have you been? And he said you'll never believe me. I was kidnapped at gunpoint. And she looked her in the eye and she said even you couldn't make that up. And I said yeah, and she was exhausted. We both had to go to work the next day. So she said, let's just go to bed.
Speaker 2:And the next day I told her the whole story. But, yeah, it's a little odd to be kidnapped at gunpoint, um, and you know, in the end there was no, there were no bullets in the gun, but I couldn't take that chance. It was a real hand gun. Where she got that, I don't know. Um, but she was, she was nuts, she was kind of like a harmless, nutty old lady, but she was a mental hospital for a reason. And so, yeah, when she was in a mental hospital for a reason, and so, yeah, when she was in charge, I was like yep, I'm just your driver. We drove around all over the county. I don't know where we were going, because she knew the roads, I didn't. I think she had been there for a while.
Speaker 1:Is there anything you learned from that, or is that just a crazy story for you?
Speaker 2:So the thing it's funny because even in the moment, um, I could tell she was mentally she was harmless, but physically she could do real damage because she was nuts, but she wasn't mean and I thought I could like, when she came out of the bathroom by that point, um, because now she's walking towards me, I could could have gotten out and held the door for her and then just choke, hold her and whatnot. I thought you can still treat people kindly. I mean, I wouldn't have been kind but I could have been decent. I had a choice to be decent or to be violent. Because you could make a case for the fact that she could have really, let's say, the gun was loaded, she could have shot me. She say the gun was loaded, she could have shot me. She could have shot my daughter, she could have done all kinds of things. It would be.
Speaker 2:I could understand, like if they were on social media today, people would say, oh, this guy killed a woman, who kidnapped him. Man, he should go to jail for whatever. A little like the guy in New York City, daniel Penny. He'd kind of go okay, who's right, who's wrong, and I could see the case being made for do you really need to beat her into submission, because physically I could have overpowered her. And once she was out in the open, walking back from the 50 yards from the gas station bathroom to my car and I was sitting in the car waiting for her, I could have gotten out and probably wouldn't have had much trouble because in the open, easy, easy to overtake her in the car, super risky because confined space and she could shoot my daughter.
Speaker 2:So but it it dawned on me even while we were doing it, um, first, how insane it was, like like twilight zone. And then secondly, look, I have a choice here to be decent or to be, um, I never felt scared, but I was like in my head I'm going this isn't really happening, you're just, you're just in total disbelief. But I never felt scared so much. The first five minutes I was like, while I was kind of figuring it out. But it was pretty clear because even in the because, remember, I had dealt with her in the grocery store. So she was kind of like this harmless, you know, like your grandma, it's like your grandma cooing on, uh, your daughter. It's like yeah, okay, uh, and I kind of encouraged it. Even I was like, oh, sure, it's harmless, you think, and then until she gets to the car with a handgun. So it's like, oops, not so good.
Speaker 1:Well, John, I can't thank you enough for coming on. If people want to reach out to you, they want to find you. If you have anything to promote, please tell us where we can find you and what we can do to help support you.
Speaker 2:Sure, I've written books, all kinds of stuff. Here's the great thing about having a controversial last name, and I can make a case for the fact that I have the world's worst surname in the history of humanity. Um, I Google easily uh, cause nobody else. Nobody else wants it, so you can. You can find all that. Just uh it, but it's pronounced the same and it's. It's just as ugly. And you go online. You can. You can see anything that you're interested in. That's easier than than listing at all. If you have show notes, I'm happy to share it all. We'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thank you so much for for coming on. It means a lot and, no, we really enjoyed our conversation today. Today. Listeners, thank you for tuning in, tune in next week. Check us out at athleticfortitudecom. Download the podcast, subscribe. Go check out our YouTube channel. Thanks guys.
Speaker 2:Wait a minute. What about five stars only?
Speaker 1:Five stars, only baby.
Speaker 2:Thank you, john, I've never been a quality compliance guy, but yeah, you forgot that one.
Speaker 1:Five stars only. Everybody, Thank you.