Athletic Fortitude Show
Athletes all over the world endure countless mental physical and psychological adversities over the course of their careers. We are here to bring you the solutions to those adversities with some of the top professional athletes, coaches, and sport and performance psychologists around the world!
Athletic Fortitude Show
The Cost of Mental Fortitude- Michael "The Fort" McKenry
This episode dives deep into the multifaceted concept of toughness, challenging listeners to redefine its meaning beyond just physical pain tolerance. The discussion covers essential themes such as resilience, identity, purpose, and the impact of community and relationships during struggles, urging athletes and individuals alike to embrace discomfort as a pathway to growth and fulfillment.
• Defining toughness through a broader lens
• Understanding pain tolerance versus pain capacity
• The risks of technology reliance in athletic performance
• Adapting and thriving in chaotic situations
• The significance of identity in athletics and personal life
• Exploring personal motivations and purpose in sports
• The impact of community support during tough times
• Navigating loss and emotional resilience in life and sport
and this episode is brought to you by all black. Everything performance energy drink the official energy drink of the athletic fortitude podcast, available in walmart meyer in select gnc franchise locations. What does tough mean?
Speaker 2:tough is a mentality, um, more than anything, it's like what you're willing to go through. In my mind, what do you think? Because like tough, like I mean, depending on what I guess arena you're in, it could be defined a lot of different ways, but in the arena I'm talking about, is you're willing to do what it takes and go through what needs to be done to get to their maybe required result you want. I think too many times tough is defined in a small area or a small sample size. Instead of like it's a longevity play for me, what about you?
Speaker 1:I think it's different in different domains. I have this conversation about pain in general and I frequently phrase it. I don't know if I have a high pain tolerance or if I have a high pain capacity, and the difference being that the instance in which I feel pain I don't know if that's high or low, but what I do know is my capacity to take on pain physical, mental, emotional and move forward and do things regardless, I would say is very high. So at the initial contact point, whether it's physical, mental or emotional to which I feel that pain. I'm not sure if I have a high resistance to the initial pain, but what I do know is that I'm very resilient or tough, in the sense that I can take a lot and keep going. That's how I try and frame it in my own life, because I don't really know if you can measure, without some type of scientific metric, your ability to take that initial pain, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I mean, you just described fortitude to a T, didn't you? You did, you did.
Speaker 1:Given athletic fortitude. I believe it's really important to embody what my company is about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and you do. I think you have a high pain intellect.
Speaker 1:Define that for me.
Speaker 2:What I mean by that is the reason why you would go through the pain. So you, you have a really good idea of what's on the other side. A lot of people stop when it hurts and we've all heard the phrase like you just know about where you are when it hurts. And we've all heard the phrase like you just know about where you are when it starts hurting. That's the threshold. Can I get above it? And I think you have a high pain intellect and you can really kind of understand your body because of what you've been through over time.
Speaker 2:And I don't think a lot of people, especially in today's age and especially in athletics, want to get there. You know, and a great example today was I was watching a kid throw a bullpen. He's at 44 or 45 pitches, which is a lot right now, especially, you know, going into camp. He's going to be a young back going to a big league camp, but he couldn't find his feel. But he kept looking at the iPad and it's like where are you going to find a feel on the iPad?
Speaker 2:And then his last pitch he was like screw it. And it was like wop, wop, movement was right on the iPad. The release was good, the mechanics were good, the rhythm, everything played better and the velocity ticked up and it's like he just let go up and it's like he just let go. But for me, him not understanding the feel matching what's real is so far apart, because he doesn't have an intellect in that space that he needs to have. For him it's a feel intellect, or it could be a pain intellect. It gives you that ability to go further than the person right next to you most of the time, but it also gives you a capacity of understanding, and most people don't even want to touch it.
Speaker 1:I think that's the problem with technology in today's day and age, and all avenues, not even just physical, but mental. I've even noticed, so I'm naturally I'm a really good speller Like multiple times spelling be changed.
Speaker 2:Bro, so bad. Words are hard for Michael. I'm naturally a good speller, no problem.
Speaker 1:So let me get to my point. So I'm naturally a really good speller. I'm like multiple spelling bees growing up, okay.
Speaker 2:You're that guy, I got it.
Speaker 1:I'm that guy. But now, because I don't have to, like when I type and write, I don't have to manually go back and fix my spelling mistakes or my grammar mistakes I still agree, that tells you anything. Well, I'd plug it into, like you know AI and say, hey, fix grammatical errors, and so it'll fix my spelling corrections. It'll add commas and so it'll fix my spelling corrections, it'll add commas. And I've noticed, when I have to go spell things, I'm like shoot, why don't I know how to spell this. I'm like I've used this word a thousand times and I can't remember if there's two T's or two M's and an easy scenario. But it's the same thing.
Speaker 1:I wear my whoop band, I track my health and I think sometimes we can be too reliant on this and my recovery score. If it's a yellow one day, I'm like well, I feel okay, and so what works for me is it's not a day I need to overly push myself. I can focus a little bit more on recovery that day. But for me, if it's a day I need to go hard and I'm in the red, like I'm still going to go hard, right, but it's more of like a guide to understand, like, where is my body. How's it responding?
Speaker 1:If I have multiple red days in a row, then it's like, okay, maybe I need to listen to something I'm missing. But in that same breath, there's been days I've been in the green and I'll go and I'll do a workout and something doesn't feel right and so I'll push off and pull back and be like, hey, I kind of need to stop here. Some of that comes with experience, particularly having a number of injuries. I've become more in tune with what my body's telling me and, to your point, this younger generation, I think, is going to have a really difficult problem adapting to what your body's actually telling you versus what a metric or a system is telling you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't think people understand what optimal is. You know, because optimal if everything's right, you're not optimal because you're not working hard enough personally. So like you have to look at it as like, if you're looking at optimal and let's say we're doing bar speed this is a conversation I just had recently with somebody and if the bar speed is not there right With the weight that they're doing, they take the weight off's not there right with the weight that they're doing, they take the weight off when? If I'm thinking, if I know I can stay and I use 90% because I think it's a better way to go about it, I hate 110. I hate 100. It's impossible, like, stay 90%. So I know that my bench press needs to be 315 to be at my 90%. I know my squat needs to be two times my body weight. I know these things. And if I'm not there, why right? And then I can work back up. And if I stay at 90, even on my bad days, I'm at 90 on my good days. Yeah, I may hit 95, I may go 100, I may go above and hit a new pr. That is a day that's just like good for me. Let's ride the iron a little bit. It's the same thing on the field.
Speaker 2:The problem is we think so much about the yellow and the red and not pushing through the yellow and red to see well, shoot, I was way better than I thought I would be. The band told me I wasn't going to be this good. Well, yeah, the band's telling you something, but it's not telling you who you are. It's not telling what you're capable of, it's just giving you a recommendation. You use it. You say, ok, I know, I have this if I need it on my yellow days, on my red days, on my black days of death. Right, oh, you better not do anything. You're going to die today. Well, I'm going to try something. See what happens If I die I die. You know what I mean. That's extreme, but that's.
Speaker 2:The reality is, we don't test those waters, and even with technology, you know you have to believe that once it's not there, you can still do what you need to do by, for me, catching or pitching. It's the eye test. What's the eye test? Tell me, there was a ball that moved a foot and a half today. The guy was like dang it. I'm like, bro, there's nobody on the planet that said, wow, that was a great pitch to hit. I hope you throw that again Right, because the iPad numbers were bad. I'm like it moved a foot and a half Right, but like they're not seeing it, and it's like you need to understand when that's there.
Speaker 2:Whatever matrix you're looking for, or the exact horizontal movement or vertical movement that you're looking for, even though it wasn't ideal to what you're working with, that's a pitch you're going to play off of in a game at some point. The guy's going to look crazy silly. You're going to throw your better one. He's going to wallop it and you're going to be like what just just happened, because the game is always telling you something and too often we're looking away from the field, away from our inner fill, right the way our body feels, the way our internal clock feels, and then saying, okay, I think I got more than this. You know, let me not look over here. Let me just take a deep breath in and think what can I do to move today? And it'll take you a whole other place.
Speaker 1:There was this study done. I love Olympic studies. I think the Olympians are the most fascinating.
Speaker 2:There's some cycles for you.
Speaker 1:They're the most fascinating people to study in the world. But more or less I might butcher the study a little bit, but the finding was how you feel has no real determinant on how you perform. You could feel good and perform poorly. You could feel bad and perform really well, and a reframe that I like to use is how bad of an athlete do I have to be, where I need perfect conditions to be performing well?
Speaker 2:And who wants to make that excuse Right. The track was wet, run on a wet track sometimes.
Speaker 1:It's that adaptability piece Be able to create adaptability, because anytime you're competing, there's never perfect conditions and you need to learn as an athlete, mentally, physically, even in life to be able to adapt to chaos, because chaos is the only certainty you know it's funny you bring up olympic athletes because think about that, let's use hussein bolt right, usain bolt or whatever however you say.
Speaker 2:Bolt man, four years, he, he trains right and let's say theoretically, I don't wish this upon anybody day. He goes, he gets out of bed, steps on his shoe, rolls his ankle and then he gets a call that his you know cat died. He seems like a cat guy, so I'm gonna go with a cat. And then he wakes up and he doesn't have the breakfast that he wants, so he chugs the water and a protein shake and has to get down to race. He's not optimal by any stretch. You think you think osing bolt was like I can't win. No, he was like I've already won. It didn't matter what happened up to that point, because whether he got sleep or didn't get sleep, in his mind he already won in every way. And I think that's the problem we have too often is like how many people have trained when they haven't slept good? Because so often that night before a playoff game you don't sleep and then we expect to go out there and be optimal. It's not going to happen. The biggest thing for me the best players I've played against, I had to figure out a way to make themselves unoptimal, because they were so feel-good that they had to say I don't want to feel this good walking out on the field because it's going to make me go faster than I need to go once adrenaline kicks in. So you've got to take in all these different accounts. I mean, I'll never forget, colin.
Speaker 2:When I was in low A, I had this really bad rash. Our clubby decided to use some makeshift formula to make our laundry detergent and I was allergic to something in it. Well, they gave me Benadryl. I didn't know this at the time, but Benadryl is like methamphetamine to me. So here I am. I'm swinging at everything they're throwing at me, don't know what's going on, end up striking out my first three and four strikeout game in pro ball based on a over the counter medication they gave to me that my body reacted to completely different than just about everyone on the planet. I think I'm one in one million, and still today, if I think I'm one in one million and still today, if I say I should not take Benadryl, the doctor will try to prescribe it to me and say you'll be fine, it won't happen. Last time I took it I was up 48 hours straight and the reality of it is it's like. I know that People still aren't going to believe it, so the reality of it is it's like I have to understand. I stayed up 48 hours straight. I took the lump because I was in a really bad place last time, but the reality of it is, if I had to play like that again, I at least know you know I'm not going to pretend like it's not going to happen and so often for me being able to mentor and coach you know from a young age, all the way up through pro ball.
Speaker 2:Now guys got to look at the reality to what is. If you don't, you have a problem because someone's going to push a narrative on you or push you in a direction and make you feel like you're crazy. And you're not crazy. You're actually probably the most sane person there. The person that's crazy is the one that's trying to get you to do something that works for them more than it works for you. Because that person is crazy, because you're crazy to want to, not want someone to be super successful in the long run, to take their lumps now so you can have success now. It's crazy, but that's the world of sports.
Speaker 1:It's a concept honestly applies to leadership and parenting that I heard. It's good parenting and good leadership isn't trying to make you a version of me. It's to make you a better you, and some of that may come from lessons you learned from me that I've endured, but it's finding everything that's in unison and connection with you and maximizing who you are and pushing those buttons and leaning on those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause you can't take away your life experience or the reality you're living. You know, we've talked about it before the perceived reality to actual reality. As a society, we love the perceived reality. It's, it's feel good, it's like oh yeah, I know what to do with them, I know how to help them. Well, that's not true. Until you get to know them, you don't really know anything. You may have a formula to give them and they may try it. They may not, but as you get to know them, you'll know if they'll try it. And that's where the separator is, because you can give the right formula to somebody, know it'll work for them.
Speaker 2:But the problem is, if you don't know that person and know that they won't take that formula the way you gave it to them, then it was the exact wrong formula, even if it was technically by all book standards.
Speaker 2:You just ripped out the page and burnt that page and said doesn't count for this person because they went through something where they don't trust or they don't believe, or maybe they are at a point in their career where they don't trust or they don't believe, or maybe they are at a point in their career where they believe too much. You know and I think you nailed it, man you have to. You have to meet people where they are. You have to love them. And what I mean love them and this is something I wanted to ask you about is like the love where it gets thrown around a lot in a weird way, and for me, love is being able to tell someone like bro, you're fat, sorry, like you're not in a good place. And if you can't like show up in that way, I don't know if it's genuinely love, because if you really want the best for someone, you're going to tell them the truth and it's going to suck, you're going to lose friends, you're going to piss off family members.
Speaker 1:But like it's going to suck, you're going to lose friends, you're going to piss off family members, but that's what it takes. I use the word. So, in general, when you use the word love and when we use words, it becomes easier to see the world and understand the words that we want to use. When you can be really definitive about what words mean to you, whether it's textbook definition or your own definition of a word. So how you use the word love, honestly, I use kind very similarly. To be kind is different than being nice. I don't want to be a nice guy. I want to be kind in the sense that I'm doing what may be best, even if it hurts your feelings.
Speaker 1:So saying hey, you're fat or whatever. Or hey, you know, that's not aligned with who you are, you need to fix that. Or hey, man, you said like that, that's just not cool. And so the more we can add definitions to the words we use, or at least clarity around them, the easier it becomes to live out your identity or to live out your values, because then there's no real gray area. It's, I believe, this, I said this, I am this, I do this, and there's no doubt or shred of your mind. So it creates self-awareness and it just creates clarity and it makes it easy to act and live with intention, which is going to lead to, you know, more fulfillment in life.
Speaker 2:Going back to, you said the word identity. I know that's been something you've been passionate about and it's something I'm passionate about. But I don't think you can do any of that until a person really understands their identity and maybe the identity of who they are now but, more importantly, who they want to be. Because if I say, hey, you're fat, right, and you are fat If I'm saying and I'm genuinely telling you the truth, but like, it's almost to the point of like, okay, where are they? Hey, man, I think you can do better If they're at that stage, that's, that's it. What is the better? If you can't define that, going back to what you just said, then we're at a whole different stage than me just calling you fat or me calling myself fat, and that's like I think time you have to take to either have that inner dialogue, to have that open, honest dialogue, because if you never have that open, honest dialogue with accountability, you don't really want it. Whatever you're saying, you want, you don't really want, and anybody that wants to talk about that, I'll talk to you if you're blue in the face, because that is reality. So I do think there's stages to what we were just talking about and you have to meet people at that stage that they're at and most of the time they think they're three, four, five or six stages ahead and you have to give them kind of an understanding of, hey, are you really? If so, then look around you and tell me how. And you almost have to let them uncover what is almost evident. If that makes sense, and that may take a year, that may take four minutes, it just depends on the person, but it nevertheless, for me, and that's what I'm going to lead into you it defines exactly what they want, at least for now.
Speaker 2:Because how many people say I want to play in the big leagues? I'm like do you why? Why would I believe you want to play in the big leagues? I'm like do you why? Why would I believe you want to play in the big leagues? And then they start going and I asked just simple questions off of either my career, other guys I know, and I'm like you're so far away from what we did, with more information, with more people around you willing to do more than I ever had. So make that make sense. If you can make it make sense, we're cool, but if not, then maybe go back to the drawing board and let's look at that and ask how am I going to take it a step further? And most of the time that's a runaway and they may come back, but like, that's where we're at with society, because they can say, oh, look at this. Going back to technology, look at these numbers. Man, I got a Garrett Cole sinker. Well, cool.
Speaker 1:You don't have his mentality.
Speaker 2:How do you define identity, then? I think there's a two-part to that. For me, I think there's an identity that you have, that you want, that has a mask over it. In my opinion, tell me more. So this has taken me a long time to see. So, like you may see yourself, because you've been painted in a picture or you've lived a life that's put you into an identity that you didn't create, right? So that's your actual identity in the moment, whatever it is. However, you got to right here, right now.
Speaker 2:Some people can put on a mask and go. It's like a superhero or something where they can separate A to B. So they've created multiple identities, almost, and I've seen people be great because of that. I've seen them literally go in the worst place because of that. So it's a fine line of that.
Speaker 2:Who am I? Because once you lose your mask, you have to either look at this in the mirror or you're in trouble, right? Because you don't want to. You want to keep the mask on. So I think the only identity you have is your reality now in the dark. So, going back to character, and then your willingness to say this is who I am, this is who I want to be, what are the steps to get there? And that identity is created through that process. It's not created, you know, necessarily before or necessarily it's just walking through it, and I feel like we probably have a similar understanding with that. But I think your identity changes over time too. I don't think you're mapped into one place, because the process for me is creating your identity, because it proves more than anything else.
Speaker 1:The way I look at identity for me is one it's very complex, very nuanced. It's different for everybody. I think everybody carries multiple elements to their personality, and I think personality in our actions ultimately shape our identity. So what does our identity mean and how do I work with athletes? Does our identity mean and how do I work with athletes? Before I go into the process, one thing you said is your identity is changing, and it always is, and I break them out into two silos. It's either identity is changing dynamically, meaning that we have some type of control and we're trying to bring a future version of ourselves to the present, or it's happening fluidly, meaning the environment around you is dictating your identity. And so what I believe is really important when we're building and trying to create who we want to be, is we first have to begin to even identify. What do we want to be, what do we want to be part of our identity, what does it mean to us to be something? And so, whether you're faithful or not, you know being, you know Christ-like is something a lot of athletes will talk about with me. But if you're not, you know religious. But even breaking that down further, it's like okay, well, what does Christ do that you want to be Christ-like, right? If I want to be tough, it's like well, what does tough mean? Right, if I want to be resilient? What does resilient mean?
Speaker 1:So we have to identify these different values and characteristics that we want to live out, that we want to be reflective of ourselves. We have to define them and be very, very precise with our definition, and then it goes to living it out. And I always say be careful of who you want to be, because there's a price to pay for that Truth. Right, I can't be courageous and live an easy life. One is the cost of the other. So it's when we're doing this, we have to be darn sure of who we want to be. And then we have to build out the recipe to live it out. And then, and only then, can we look ourselves in the mirror at night and say I am this or you are full of it, right, and that's the process, and it's nuanced and there's a lot that goes into it, but that's how you set it up At least, that's the way I work with it and then things change.
Speaker 2:Beautifully put and go to the extreme in Christ. And if you shape your image around him, what's the ultimate sacrifice? Him on the cross, right, that was the price to pay. Are you willing to pay? The price is what, ultimately, will always shape your identity. Right, because, like up to that point, christ was a great carpenter, great man. Then he became the son of God, right, he became the healer and he took on a lot of identities because of that. Because, depending on who he met, they almost got what they needed through him. So that's why he's the Messiah.
Speaker 2:And it's almost like we have to understand, I think, go a step further. It's like what we need, what do we need for us? And then identifying what are we willing to do? And I think too often we say we're willing to do something.
Speaker 2:I love the fact that you brought up the fact that define what relentless is. You know what is fortitude, and their definition may be so far away from what it actually is, but that's telling you where you're at and I think listening to what you say a lot of times gives you much more. So I think these sessions you know, especially with your athletes, I'm sure you feel the same way. It's like, hey, bro, did you just hear what you said? You just defined you know somebody that you look up to. Why do you look up to them? And then you realize you're just looking at them in one single solitary thing You're looking up to them. You're not looking to them as a husband or a father, you're looking to them as a player, which is great, like go find the guy you look at and say I want to be like him and then break him down that's literally like the first step, like you described the first step, identify with somebody and always go find your comp.
Speaker 2:Don't allow someone to put a comp on you. And one thing I'll say, colin, is when guys go out and find a comp, it's like, oh, I like aaron judge, I was like you're not six, nines, change it now. Like it's just there's not a reality there, right. Like go find a comp that you can say this guy did it and he did it at five, nine, did it at 180. Okay, I can dig this, right, what did he do that I'm not doing? And then break it down.
Speaker 2:Then that's what builds your identity, right, because if not, what's going to happen? You can take this and slam, dunk it as they're going to make the identity for you. And then you talk about being lost and having a mask on, like that mask was not painted by you, that mask was put on and you have no control because it's literally the number and the name that's on your back now and you may not see it every day, because it's on your back, but it's there and it's never leaving. You have to find a way to break through and the only way to do that is take complete ownership of it.
Speaker 1:There's something really important. I don't like making things universal, but the one element of identity that everyone needs to have in some capacity is to be to serve something bigger than themselves.
Speaker 2:I would say that's pretty universal.
Speaker 1:And and again. I don't like making universals, but that is universal. Whether you're, you know whether you believe in God, whether you're religious, whether you're not, or whether you're an atheist.
Speaker 2:you have to serve something bigger and I said until we're not and he goes, I don't care after that, but find something to play for. And it hit me like a ton of bricks, like that was the most honest statement in a professional Major League locker room. I'd maybe heard up to that point. Because, yeah, if you're going to play, everyone benefits. If you win, everyone. If you lose, the only person that benefits is the ones that are fighting for that benefit, because if you lose, they start to change the structure, they start to change the identity of the team, they pull pieces away, they add new pieces. And I think to your point is, like you always are doing it for something.
Speaker 2:Now I'll take it one step further about that universal thing Are you really playing for what you're saying? Cause I would say that's a misconnect a lot Like especially when it comes to the Christ idea like, okay, we'll define how he would play football, don't worry, I'll wait. That's one thing that they don't want to look at, because that man would be the first one there, last one, to leave. He'd be taking care of his body, he'd probably have a journal, he'd do all the things that you're not doing. So then you have to ask yourself am I doing what I am saying. I want to do.
Speaker 1:I don't think most people actually understand why they're doing something Like deeply. I think a lot of people just whether they have a natural gift or their parents made them, they fall into sports and they might find some success, might find some trials, tribulations, but nobody reflects on the real reasons why we do things. Reflects on the real reasons why we do things. Why do you love baseball or football or basketball so much? Is it the ego side? Is it the glory? Is it the perks?
Speaker 1:I think of course all of us love some of the perks, but the more we can detach from the ego and the more that we can recognize the underlying root passions behind why we're doing something, and not in some, you know, fluffy way, but truly like why do I do anything? What meaning do I want out of this? And some people don't go that deep and I think it makes it really easy to get lost and have that mask, like you said, and to ask yourself the tough questions, the analytical of yourself type questions gets lost. And this episode is brought to you by All Black Everything Performance Energy Drink, the official energy drink of the Athletic Fortitude Podcast, available in Walmart, meijer and select GNC franchise locations.
Speaker 2:Well said. So that leads to what's the? What got you into it, why are you doing it and what's the way out. You know, and I don't think that's easy to ask at all at all, but like I use a guy, have you ever heard Pyro Demas?
Speaker 1:I have heard.
Speaker 2:I've heard, I have heard some Demas, so I don't know if it's the same so Olympic weightlifter I love Olympic weightlifting and when he retired he caught the best snatch of his life, took off his shoes and left them on the platform and walked away. Because it was the end where some people would say, dude, just caught his best snatch, best total. Why is he leaving? Because it was the end where some people would say, dude, just caught his best snatch, that's total. Why is he leaving? Because he had all he wanted and he got to walk away. But he saw the end game right. He had his out, that was his out. And to make it permanent in his mind, I felt like he had to take off his shoes and put it there Like that's my last competitive lift.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying you have to go to the extreme, to your point, but I do think there's something to it because you know, if you've ever put someone you know in a casket and been through that process, everything that's done is for grieving and it's to shut the door and to move forward. It's not for the person that's actually in the casket right At all. And that's kind of what you're doing when you're letting go of something you love, that you've known forever why you started. You don't even know that question. That's a problem. But then you get in you ask the why am I going to keep going? And then you have the ultimate reason Is it going to be taken from you, are you going to be able to walk away on your own terms or somewhere in between? You need to be able to look at that and if you're not, you're going to go through a grieving stage, and a deep grieving stage, I would say, and it's something that I'm sure me and you over time will really get into because I went through some things I didn't think I was going to go through and I left what I thought was on my own terms, but I still had resentment that I didn't see and I had to walk through that and until I did I was mad.
Speaker 2:I'm just now catching bullpens, which is sad. You know. I'm retired from playing professionally in 17. I'm just now catching real bullpens for the first time, consistently. That's not me and I think it's because of something internally. But you have to look at that. That's tough dude. That's a tough thing to swallow and say, man, what was I pussyfooting around for? What was it? And I'll answer that question at some point. I'll figure that out, but like that's what you're going to go through if you're not willing to walk that process. And I think the best on the planet was Kobe Bryant, in my opinion, and it's because he went through different stages, of being the Black Mamba to finding a bigger why than just being that guy, and then becoming the incredible dad, the incredible servant leader and somebody completely different. But he shifted everything into something else. But that mentality never changed. It was just a different why and a different way to go about it.
Speaker 1:I'd like to hear a little bit more about that Res, that resentment piece that you talked about when you left the game.
Speaker 2:I never peaked and that was probably my biggest resentment, and I used the excuse that I didn't want to be the person I needed to be to do that, and that's probably true. But at the same time, if I wanted to figure out a way to peak, I could have, and I didn't. Um, that was tough to swallow but it was a good pill for me to swallow and it's something I can teach now the kids. Like you know, this is the quick fix. We can look beyond that and find a different way. Like I needed to be an asshole personally to be great. I needed to listen to heavy metal and be mad and frustrated and be that guy. I mean, that's honestly what I know to be true, and I found that out by putting myself in some really tough situations. And how did I respond? I always responded worrying about someone else.
Speaker 2:When I could lock in on myself and do the things I needed to do, almost like a blackout type version of me, it was good. Like when I played mad, I was very successful. When there was tragedy in my life, I dominated, but playing there all the time was very scary for me. So there was a balance there. I didn't see a road at the time to get there quick enough. But if I wanted to do it I could have. I just chose not to and there was a repercussion to that and it pushed me away for a while. I maybe not believe I could coach for a long time. I don't believe any of those things anymore. I got through it like you're gonna have some consequence, like you were talking about earlier.
Speaker 1:I mean, you really are have you found peace with that yet?
Speaker 2:I have, I have how'd you get there? Uh, probably usa baseball. Um, seeing where a lot of my personality as a player that probably didn't help me plays out really well as a coach.
Speaker 1:Tell me more about that. What part of your personality that didn't help as a player now works as a coach?
Speaker 2:It worked out great as a player. It didn't work out great as an individual player. I was a glue guy, I was a rah-rah guy guy, I was a make you feel like you could run through a wall guy, um, and I did it with authenticity, like when I said it I really believe, like bro, that slider, come on man, nobody said you throw that, let me block it, let me throw him out of first base game set match period and that was always just ingrained in me. I don't know exactly where it came from, but, like the serving people is something I got from my mom. My mom had a tragic childhood. She always thought about others before. That was her maybe tick to get away from the tragedy she faced. And because of that, like, I learned something that was ingrained in me and that was like love others, love others, love others, love others, love others, and kind of paint a picture that's not real in your own mind and good, bad or ugly. That made me a great teammate and I think it'll make me an incredible coach, um, in the long run, because it's something that you can find a balance of being able to love someone, hype them up, tell them where they're at.
Speaker 2:But because of all that, to wrap all this together, to answer your question is once I got to the point of seeing that, then I could see okay, how would I balance out a personality like mine, where I know I'm going to hit them and it's going to devastate, but I know they need it? So then I started really focusing on the personality of the human and saying where are they at? How'd they get here? And sometimes you're like they don't appreciate where they are. Sometimes it's like man, they wanted this so bad they're almost putting themselves in a hole and you can go and talk to these kids, learn a little bit about them and have that aha moment. And sometimes it's helped a kid make a team with USA baseball. Somebody hasn't, but that helped me because that's the elite of the elite at a teenage age where they're still developing. They're still growing. Some kids are maxed out. Some kids are going to all of a sudden had a huge growing spurt and be a different human. But they all are so easy to kind of figure out and they're like puppy dogs, like the alpha dog is so evident and sometimes alpha dog is forced upon them but you can see the real alpha. So like you start seeing this and everything plays out in my mind Like man.
Speaker 2:There's a long time where I was an alpha and I didn't see it. I played. I played a different type of role when maybe I could have played a higher role. You know, I always pulled myself backwards. So going back through that whole thing is because the way I was raised and the way I kept projecting myself, the identity I kept creating for myself, I would put myself backwards instead of stepping forwards. So by the time I get into my career, the resentment comes from all the things I didn't know when I wish I knew them. So, being the person I am, I'm trying to teach kids that way, before it ever could happen to them. And you talk about a different way to teach. Right, you want to walk through the heart. I teach adaptability through everything You're doing too good. We need to change things up. So it's really molded me into my thinking and probably even my philosophy on how to pull the most potential out of someone.
Speaker 1:You said something along the lines of you performed really well when there was catastrophe or things going wrong. Is that genetic or is that something you learned or something you work to develop?
Speaker 2:uh, actually I could tell you if it's genetic, I can get my wife to look at it, since she's doing genomics. Um, I think it was. Perspective is the best way to put it. No matter what was going on, it gave me an open door to perspective that I didn't get as a kid. I was very much protected through tragedy harm. Most of the things I found out about my mom were after 25. A lot of things that my dad went through in his childhood and all the trauma that was bestowed upon me that I was protected from, I didn't find out until I was in my late 20s, out of the house, married, so pretty much opposite of most. So looking back and being like, oh crap, I didn't see that, I didn't understand that. But it gave me a chance to break through.
Speaker 1:How do you deal with catastrophic losses now?
Speaker 2:Personally, I haven't had to deal with the loss like that, except with some friends. When I was really young my best friend was murdered. Um, but I was so young and I'm one to pull to others, so my worst pain comes from others. So, like um, like I found out what love was when my wife's dad passed away. I I say that very lightly, um, not for anybody to take that the wrong way but watching her grieve was the moment I was like, oh my, I didn't know the feeling that I could feel about a human being in that moment. That was love, that was true love for me. Looking back at it.
Speaker 2:So I think when you talk about the worst things that can happen, I mean you could pelt me with anything you want, but watching someone you really care about hurt is the catastrophic loss for me. So I don't really know how to describe that any other way. If you know what I mean, what would you say in that instance? Because, like, that's hard for me, because I think you know, if I know, like if I lose my mom, god, god, please don't make that happen, because I love her to death.
Speaker 2:But if I lost my mom, like I don't know, if I think about her in the sense of like I don't have her, in the sense of like she's in heaven, cause I know that's what she wants, and I know her biggest concern, even in an afterlife, is is he okay? Is Michael okay? Cause I mean, she loves me and she gave me a great life and she gave me a way better life than hers. So win, win all the way around. So like I could go to celebrate that no matter what happens. But if I had to watch her suffer, that would be really hard. You know, and I think, I think, I don't know, I think some people use death as and I'm going to say this, I probably regret it, but like it's so true is make it about them and I, just, I, just, I can't, my my being won't let me death and you know versions of death.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know assigning something that feels like a death yeah those are some of the hardest topics to discuss because it's so individualized. Something that you just said that I often in my own life look at is the selfishness of it. When I lost my grandfather last year, probably about 13 months ago I made a conscious choice to look at the good and to think of all the years I was so blessed to have him in my life and for him to be a father figure at different points in my life, to be my biggest fan and we talked earlier about finding your comp right and for me. I looked at him and I was like and I've written about this, I've talked about it a lot, but he was always simultaneously the toughest person in a room and the most loving, and so for me it was how can I live this out of my own life? How can I honor him in that manner? How can I do things that he would look down and approve of?
Speaker 1:And it didn't necessarily make me miss him less or that pain hurt less. It was more so. I felt a responsibility to carry that honor, ability to carry that honor, and I didn't want to when he passes away or anyone else. I didn't want to be selfish in the sense that I'm sad for me that he's gone or I'm sad for me that they're gone. I wanted to reflect it and change it and to find some way to make good of this in a celebration of their life instead of a, instead of a, you know, a morning of their death. And it's something I have really struggled with other people, not in the sense that I can't relate to them, but in the sense of figuring out what role I need to be for them and how can I help them through it and how can I understand their perception and not press the wrong buttons in an emotional state.
Speaker 2:And going back to what you said and that was beautifully said and I think ideally that's the perfect scenario is how can you change the avenue of energy to go into a more purposeful place instead of a more pouty place? But to your point, my wife lost her dad right before we got married and we're 22 and 23 years old. I had nothing for her but I had everything for her, and I think the naiveness of that. I wish I could carry that every single time someone passes and I just show up, don't know what to do, but just be there and then when you feel like you're supposed to do something. I'll never forget.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I ever shared this with you. I picked her up when her dad died and I walked her probably a mile. I mean, it doesn't seem like much but, karen, she was probably 90 pounds at the time because she lost so much weight. But like, carried her a mile, dude, like no problem, and that's a presence of God. I could tell you in 1000 like ways that that was the presence of God and that moment was once again a special moment. But it was a very tragic moment. But I didn't know what I was doing, I had no clue, and I think that's what we have to do is just show up and we're going to do it wrong, but we listen to what the situation's telling us instead of what our brain's telling us, cause our brain gets in the way and I think our ability to just be almost like a puppy dog If you've ever been around a dog if my wife falls, I wish I was the first person that made it there. It's my dog, he's there. He's like are you okay, your sister? He'll just give her a kiss. She feels better.
Speaker 2:I think there's really something to be learned by that.
Speaker 2:It's like that's really all that it takes, you know, and we try to make it much, much more, and the person that's going through it is going to make it much, much more because, no matter what we do, it's going to be wrong, because most of the time probably felt this when you're going through it, you don't know what you need.
Speaker 2:You know, and I've just learned and done it wrong so many times that I look back at when it originally happened and I had no clue is probably the best I did, because I was just there, you know, and that takes a lot of like reflecting and thinking and I have to thank my wife for allowing that. But, man, I'm telling you that's probably the craziest part is like it's nothing. It's really nothing that you can do. You just show up over and over again and I got to watch that recently with a dear, dear person in my life go through the worst tragedy ever, and I watched his girlfriend just be here and, man, was it amazing. And they're going to be tied together in a different way than you could ever imagine, forever. Whether it works or not, that tie won't leave because what she was able to do for him in a very tough time is very special.
Speaker 1:So showing up as a skill, and it's really hard, particularly, you know, when you have nothing to gain from it. Right, but still showing up. And there's this concept. I love it's. You know, your, your deathbed friends, the ones who will be there, who will sit with you I love that, though deathbed yeah what'd you say I?
Speaker 1:always say ride or die yeah, and it's just the people. You know that when you have ups, absolutely nothing to offer them, that they'll be there and they'll sit there. You don't need them to say anything, you just need to know they're there. My problem is I always want to say something and that's a really. That's something I've really. I've had to work really hard at knowing that I don't always have to say the right thing, and sometimes saying nothing other than I'm here is all I need to say.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you this how often do you go against your gut?
Speaker 1:Not very often I really listen to my gut.
Speaker 2:And I would say the Holy Spirit and your best intuition speaks through your gut and too often when it's telling you to do something, just follow it. It's probably better off. And if you're wrong, ask, if you're wrong in your emotional delivery, other than what you're trying to do, because there's a big difference right, like sometimes your, your enthusiasm in a time where enthusiasm wasn't needed, or your ability to not be empathetic in a time where you need to be empathetic, like the delivery was off, not what you're trying to do, and I think that's a big, big thing. And then also, don't second guess what's actually happening. That's one thing I think is really easy to do for smart people.
Speaker 2:My wife's one of the smartest people on the planet and she'd be like I don't understand why that happened. I'm like who cares? You were there and they opened up and it seems to happen a lot. Let it happen, because that's just saying that you have some incredible ability to make people feel comfortable in really tough situations and they want to share with you. So you seem like a safe space. So let it be. You don't have to know why and I'm guilty of that too, but probably not as much as others. So, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:It takes time and it takes want to you know like. And then also something that I went through about two years ago, not expecting what you think you should get or what people should definitely do. Don't expect it and don't resent them for not doing it, because you don't know exactly what that'll do to them, what trigger that may open. It's just something that, like it takes a long time to learn. Just let people be and then, when the time comes, if there's an opportunity to talk about it, you try to talk about it, but make it about them, not about the situation.
Speaker 1:What helps me when I'm seeking something, I'm in the one in a stage of loss is, first of all, in advance, knowing who I can go to for certain things and define. Again, going back to defining defining that's really good, Defining their role in my life, you know. And then, for example, like if I go to my wife about something and it's like Marissa, I don't need advice, I don't need you to say anything, I don't care if I'm wrong. You need to give me the space to let it out. I don't care if I'm wrong. You need to give me the space to let it out. When I calm down, when I'm thinking straight, we can revisit and have this discussion. Well said.
Speaker 2:And that takes a long time to know yourself like that.
Speaker 1:That's really cool. It's. I can't remember if I sent this to you, but I saw this, this tweet, and it was a voiceover and like an animation talking about like deep thinkers and I was like I've never felt so understood in my life. I was like this feels like me and I've always been this way and I've hidden it forever, really before I got cut, right before my career ended, and for a while it felt like a crutch and now it's become one of my, what I view as my greatest attributes, because I've learned how to use it to my benefit.
Speaker 2:I saw it immediately. So I mean fit. I saw it immediately so I mean um, you have a special ability to um, think through a problem and not want the answer. Um I I don't know if that makes any sense, but, like I think, too often we try to find great example. I was working with a kid recently. He's very good, young, very good, very talented. Because I got it, I said you got it right now. That's so true.
Speaker 2:You have a knack in conversations to understand that, like a lot of the things we said today, you articulated so much better than me, but you have the ability to understand that, like I speak a different language and that's what makes it so fun, like my opinion, so fun to get together and talk Because, like I could see you spinning and then I'll do the same thing and I feel like it's going to touch a lot, of, a lot of hearts and a lot of minds. And I did it because I was a naive kid that was told was dumb and stupid and I was like dang, I'm actually pretty smart. I just don't think, like these people, like which is okay, like I don't do the same thing on sportsnet that brault and kinger did. I'm not going to be buttoned up. I'm going to shoot you straight as an arrow if I can, and you do that in your own way.
Speaker 2:And when you put people together that want to find a solution for a human and not find the answer for whatever reason. A textbook, you know it. It's a lot of good and a lot of bad, because it's very hard to script something out and just sell it, even if it is going to help maybe 10 out of a hundred. We want to go a hundred for a hundred and give them a cure to move forward, and that's that's tough. But like, or did you like, a book, for some of that you know I was was like. He's different and in a really, really good way and unique way, and you're gonna impact a lot of people. I'm not trying to blow smoke, I don't do that lightly anymore. Um, I really mean it like I think it's cool that you're finding yourself and you just keep getting better I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:um, I'm not great at taking compliments, so thank you. Nor should you be.
Speaker 2:Personality, bro. Like, of course not Like neither one of us would be good at that, but like it's my God honest truth Like we fight to get on to talk, and I genuinely enjoy every single time we get on and it gets better and better.
Speaker 1:One thing you said that I had to learn was I am actually smart and in like a unique way.
Speaker 2:It's crazy for me to hear you say that.
Speaker 1:You want spelling bees dude, so that's why I'm going to, I'm going to unpack it for you.
Speaker 2:So this is stuff I really love hearing.
Speaker 1:I grew up really like naturally smart Okay, so did really well in school. Things came easy to me Spelling bees, math like writing language. But whatever the classes were, I was always like top Okay.
Speaker 2:Like without the work.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and so you're going to find it. And as soon as then I associated that. Again going back to identity, obviously I didn't know this at the time, but I associated that praise right, being told oh, you're so smart, you're so great. And it shifted as I progressed through school to anytime something felt challenging. I was like, oh, shoot, like I'm supposed to be really smart, this is supposed to be easy. Like I don't want to do this type of thing and like look stupid. And then it transitioned into this period where I would just stop trying. I'd still get good grades, but I was never like academic honor roll, like going through middle school and high school. I was like an honor student right, like still got good grades, but not near what like I was capable of. And it got to a point where I was cool playing the role of like the dumb athlete right, when the reality was I was selling myself so much shorter right Than what I was. And then it became a belief that I wasn't that smart.
Speaker 1:And then it took like a couple of different events you worked yourself into a problem yeah, exactly, and it took different events in my life where other people telling me like you're really smart and I remember having a conversation with my dad once and just like telling him about like an event where someone was really impressed with my ability to read something recall it I was given basically this booklet of a game plan for a specific team and within less than an hour I read through this thing and I'm recalling it as if I had put it together myself and they were just taken back and I was talking about my dad with him.
Speaker 1:He's like colin, he's like you're smart and like for whatever reason, him just saying that like it power of father's word is impeccable yeah, and I was just like I you're, you're like right, like I, I am smart, like I'm, I'm not dumb and I think how long ago, was that not long ago, like I'm like two months. Maybe he's like colin, like you are, you are smart and I'm still like I still struggle with it because I'm like sometimes I feel like what makes me smart is realizing how much I don't know. It's like like the more I learn, it's like the more I realize I don't know.
Speaker 2:That's Einstein's definition of genius. It honestly is I mean, it really is like. Read it Like. I mean the smartest person is usually the person that thinks he doesn't know the answer. This is always something to learn, like answering a question right when we're having a conversation. We're not looking to say this is the only way.
Speaker 2:I think those are stupid people I agree smart people are saying this is my experience, this is what I understand. That's what you've done a great, great at, but the fact that you're saying what you are now. Go back and look at what you've been doing over social media for two months. It has been good. Good because we've talked about it a lot and it's funny because I didn't know that. But, like, I shared something you said the other day. I'm like that was sick. It was you. It was you saying it wasn't a guest. Yeah, I have a hard, hard time probably same as you is just putting out my stuff and like, if I can help in any way to say, bro, you got to let that eat yeah, I have to do.
Speaker 1:I do have to do a better job.
Speaker 2:I but like it takes, maybe that's, maybe that's some a better version of a friendship I could do for you, because I I know that had to be a struggle. I didn't know the story that well but I could see that part of you because I see it in me and, yeah, I'd be happy to tell you that, bro, sometimes you just nail it, you just need to let it go, because the world needs it and deserves it, and I think you deserve it more than anything. So I love that. I love that story man. It's so cool Because I guarantee, if you look over especially over the last month, but the last couple months I've been man he's really done a great job with, like, letting some of these things go, you know I think it's.
Speaker 1:It's due to probably a number of different things.
Speaker 2:Your confidence is building.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure, you know, my knowledge is growing. My favorite thing about the podcast, let me just say this my favorite thing about the podcast is how much I get to learn from all of my guests, how much I get to challenge my own thought processes, the things I get to implement in my own life. I just, every conversation I have with someone, I try something new and some things work, some things don't. That's okay, and what it's? What the empowerment I get is. I'm no, I don't fear being dumb. I never, like I got to a point where I didn't care about other people's opinions of me being dumb. I didn't want to be dumb putting something out there that wasn't going to benefit someone. And so as I grow in this space and as I learn more, the more comfortable I feel sharing something, knowing that it will help at least one person.
Speaker 1:And when I'm in that best moment, in those best spaces and I was talking with one of my former coaches, so I'm actually working with his team now, and I think everybody has to find this for themselves, but for me I was like when I'm at my best in terms of thought clarity, mood is Saturday mornings. I'm up early, I'm with my girls for about an hour, let my wife get ready, then I throw on my headphones, I go to the gym, I just write and write and then I work out and the rest of that day I'm just pumped, I'm ready to go and I'm just in line with everything. And that's what enables me to put together my best interview research, my interview scripts and then, when I get in the meeting, these calls, I'm able to flip that switch and I love my Saturday mornings, like I, I. They bring out the best of me.
Speaker 2:It's you time.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we all need that. I do a very bad job of that, but, like you're talking earlier on, like you need to find something that gives you that football, feel you that's part of it, that's part of it.
Speaker 1:That's part of it. That's the closest I get. And then working with teams speaking, that adrenaline rush the part that I know I'm missing and I've started to talk about this a little bit more too, and I use JJ Redick as the example Unbelievably successful podcast, unbelievably successful in the media. But that team element you can't replace, right, and that's like that's the part that I yearn for is being, I said earlier, being a part of something bigger than myself. And I'm able to get that in my personal life with my relationship, with my faith, with my faith.
Speaker 1:But then in the act of like doing and living out in terms of like trying to achieve a higher goal, to to lay on the ground after an like a ridiculously hard workout thrown up like thrown up, like just laying there, like basically half dead, but knowing you know 100 other guys just did it with you. This is a really it's a really hard thing when you move on from athletics to replace and that's why so many former players go into coaching and it's something. That's the thing that I really miss right now. I mean, I've missed it for a while and it's really the first time I've been willing to like kind of talk about it, as silly as that sounds.
Speaker 2:Well, just know that and I'm saying this speaking to myself too is when it's right, it'll be right.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Because what you think you miss is something that you probably can never grab again. But you can grab a different version of it. That's even better. And, um, you're being set up to where, like, I'll use JJ Reddit, cause I've been watching him very closely, cause I wanted to know how that would pan out. When he completely gives into him and he's himself, and it doesn't matter who's around him, he'll find the best version of what he's looking for because, like, I don't think it's coincidence, like it's been a lot harder than I think he thought and I think he's gonna be better for it, because I think he's gonna realize, like he didn't have to be something. He's not. So, yeah, it takes time.
Speaker 2:I'm still looking for that too and trying to define it. And you do get bits and pieces. You're like, how do I replicate that? And I don't know if it is in team, because the freedom of being able to impact a group of men in a way where they can kind of go create their own ripple is really special too. So I'd say, just keep doing what you're doing, keep walking through it, and you're going to find something, um, and it may be a hit or miss, but I think it'll lead you to the next step.
Speaker 2:And I'm saying that from my story because it, even though I've done the same thing over the last year seven, I think, or eight on TV, it's not my angle, it's a placeholder of sorts because I know I'm supposed to be in the dirt. I was born in the dirt and I'm going to die in the dirt. It's the reality. I know that for a fact. But it's doing it the right way. And USA Baseball opened up a door for me to see a lot of the self I've been missing. And you know, come home and have a better husband, a better at every aspect. And it's like what am I getting there, sunshine? What's happening? And I think you keep answering those questions, so I just keep putting yourself out there and you're doing a great job of it.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it, love doing this.
Speaker 2:Me too. And hey, guess what? You didn't script nothing today.
Speaker 1:Script nothing Not rolled up. I was like shoot, I didn't script anything, we're just going to see where it goes. But appreciate you Love doing this. Eventually we'll do one of those long form ones. It's pretty long this one, but round. Well, technically it'll be round like 35 for us, but it'll be. We'll get a long one in one of these times week.
Speaker 2:honestly, like, if you want to meet downtown, I'm down next week, um, sweet. And then if, because I, I do think like I need the challenge in the weight room, I love iron, um, I'm having a hard time figuring out what to chase I, I need the, I need like something right here that I can't quite grasp. Yep, need somebody else to have something right there that I can't quite grasp. Yep, somebody else to have something right there that they can't grasp, and be like hey, bro, how's it going? So you seem like you want that, I want that. Let's figure that out and maybe we can announce it next week.
Speaker 1:I'm in brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1:Weird, let's get weird. I like it. Okay, what a place to wrap, hi brother All right man Appreciate you, Keep doing it. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Make sure to tune in next week. Check us out at athleticfortitudecom. Go like the podcast download. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Leave us a rating, leave us a comment. Five stars, only baby. Thanks guys. Tune in next week.