The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Formerly The Athletic Fortitude Show.... Colin Jonov’s Athletic Fortitude Show has rebranded to The Playbook with Colin Jonov, evolving from a sports-centric podcast to a universal guide for mastering life’s challenges. While retaining its foundation in mindset and performance excellence, the show now expands its scope to empower everyone—athletes, entrepreneurs, professionals, and beyond—to live life to its fullest potential
The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Karlo Zovko- Why 90% of College Football Stars Fail: The Hidden "Give A Shit Factor"
Real success in college football depends on finding players with both physical talent and mental fortitude - what recruiters call "the give a shit factor."
• 90% of college football success comes down to genetics - the measurables coaches obsess over
• The grinding schedule of college athletics requires tremendous commitment - 6am to 10pm daily schedules are normal
• NIL deals and the transfer portal have completely changed program dynamics and player development
• 49% of players who enter the transfer portal never emerge with another scholarship
• Pitt football produced the most draft picks in the ACC over a five-year period through development, not recruiting rankings
• Players need to understand their realistic options when considering transfers or moving up competition levels
• College rivalry games like Pitt-Penn State should be maintained for both tradition and financial benefits
• North Dakota State demonstrates sustainable success by prioritizing winning and culture over money
• Some recruits who appear underwhelming initially (like Gavin Bartholomew and Kenny Pickett) develop into NFL prospects
• The "it factor" is real - Kenny Pickett demonstrated it even before his breakout statistical season
Support your local programs. The best football experiences often come at schools where players can contribute meaningfully rather than sitting on the bench at higher-profile programs.
I would say I'm not a stressed guy.
Speaker 2:I don't like. So, like my stress. Well, obviously, like I kind of know how to deal with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When I played I was like hyper stressed, yeah. But nowadays, like I don't, my stress levels don't really rise, but like when they do, they rise hard Like they, they hit me like hard. It's like okay, like back, back against the wall, yeah, if I don't do something like I'm gonna explode, type thing so my problem is I work best in that environment.
Speaker 1:So I find myself I don't do it on purpose self-consciously I put myself in that type of environment. I do my best work in that environment.
Speaker 2:So well, a couple different things on that one. If you look at like society as a whole, even in America the greatest periods of innovation were during the highest stress back against wall environments.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:The problem is you just can't be that way all the time. Yeah, but if we're really looking to revolutionize something, it has to be one of those back against the wall Because, like you said, you just go. Yeah, the subconscious part yeah right.
Speaker 2:So I listen to like a lot of different psychologists speak and talk about different studies. One thing in related to relationships that ties into like what you're doing is like subconsciously, like men and women, if they have commitment issues, they'll look for someone else with commitment issues so they can defer blame and be like they're not ready to commit.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:So you and probably similar to me, it's like I work best in that scenario.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Backs against wall. I have no options. I got to just go yeah. Subconsciously, if we know we need something done, we will put ourselves in that position to act.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. I mean it's exactly what I do. Somebody had told me that one time when I was at Pitt, because I mean I'm the world's biggest procrastinator. They're like why do you do that? I'm like I hate my work. If I have time to do something, I think it looks like absolute shit when I do it, but if I have a deadline and I'm work, I will submit it right the second before that deadline. I'm like that was a freaking masterpiece. I don't know why I'm like that. Like it's like one of those efficiency things in my head where it's like, no, I have to be most efficient, I have this amount of time, let's freaking hammer, hammer out and go, and I don't know. I've always been like that. I mean it used to drive Graham.
Speaker 2:Wilbert freaking nuts. I'm like the opposite of my wife, so I'm like you. Like you put me at a deadline, I'm good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm not missing a deadline.
Speaker 2:Yep, and you give me time, though, I'm going to wait till the shortest mile possible. But what I think for myself is it removes thinking and just doing. Yeah, it makes sense. And, like the initial just my like. Everybody thinks their instincts are good, but, like normally, our initial instincts are really good, right, and so when we're doing a project, project something we're particularly familiar with or competent in, we will do that at a higher level, without the removal of doubt or secondary thought. Right, and so that's where I do my best. Work, too, is like when I've procrastinated, when my back is against the wall, when I need to to go.
Speaker 1:yeah, so yeah, that's where, that's where I'm at. But I, I mean, I kind of know that about myself, I like that about myself, but it's just, let's get going. Even even when I got my studio, like my, the guy that was did the studio for me, he was like what, uh, did you? Did you even move anything in? Did you buy anything? And we're like three weeks before the season, I'm like nope.
Speaker 2:Do you remember our one class together? We had one class.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had one project together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you didn't do a single thing for the project. No, no, no, no, no. Well, neither one of us did so. We were partnered with this other guy. Okay, I completely forgot, we even had to do anything. I just remember getting a text from this kid saying I did everything on my own. I'm going to tell the professor, I just want to work by myself. And I was like whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like what's going on here? I remember texting all of us in a group Don't remember exactly what I said. This was almost eight years ago. But the kid complained to the professor. We spoke to the professor. Was I there, professor? We spoke to the professor, and then was I there when we spoke to the professor.
Speaker 2:I did for us. Actually, I spoke to the professor. He just had us retake the class. He was like it's okay, like communication problems happen. I just remember you texting me separately. You're like what a big baby. And I was like, yeah, I was like I would have done everything like my piece that night loser. Yeah, I was just like man. I was like this is the only like class I've ever had an issue in and it's like my first semester getting my MBA for what it's worth, I would probably take that kid's side.
Speaker 1:I did absolutely not. I don't even. I forgot about it, I don't even remember.
Speaker 2:The class is the craziest the problem is people don't understand, like in our environment, like as the athlete and as you were, as a ga it's. I'm like, it's like we're just privy of time now.
Speaker 1:It's like every second is scheduled out, particularly like in season, in camp, like I don't have free time nobody I mean there's no gas that ended up getting a grad school degree like I don't think, since, like you can't do it, like it's impossible. And then when the ncaa they waived something in like 2018, it was like hey, you don't need to go to grad school, you can be a ga and not go to grad school. So everybody just yeah, I didn't know, drop their, drop their class. It's some. I shouldn't say that, it's some sort of a blanket thing. Like I say like a blanket thing, I don't know it's not the same thing for athletes right?
Speaker 2:No, no, no no, I was going to say that, but GAs you don't have time.
Speaker 1:I mean, I literally would wake up. Think about this During the season, during the fall semester, I would wake up every single day at 545. Go in 630 staff meeting every single day. I wouldn't leave that building until what time was dinner? Over 9, 930? Maybe, yeah, that's when I left. Okay, where's class time? Yeah, I have to sleep. I would like to see my significant other. Yeah, I would like to see my family. Where's class time? It's crazy.
Speaker 2:People don't understand the grind of college pro athletics. I think it's one of the most under-discussed elements, particularly with kids thinking they want to play in college.
Speaker 1:They have no idea.
Speaker 2:They have no idea. Nope, even for myself as someone who's like I, love the game, I was fully committed. So I went to Bucknell first. Most of my listeners know that, but when you get, there it is a different level.
Speaker 2:You're there 6 am 10 pm. I'll never forget my first camp as a true freshman and I was a starter from day one, or technically like day five Okay. So like I had something to like play for other than reps and experience, I was like playing. I remember third week into camp. This was before some of the rules changed too. So like we were 6 am to 10 pm, didn't leave, we got one nap a day and I couldn't sleep because I'm just laying there looking at the wall thinking how am I gonna do four years of this? And, like I said, I loved the game and people and kids in particular, they don't realize the commitment level it takes the higher the level you go to you're we let us swear on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're good. Okay, so we had this thing called the give a shit factor. Do these kids that you're recruiting do they give a shit? Because in the recruit think about this the whole recruiting industry is almost messed up because none of these kids, every single one, has only played football or basketball their entire life, right, or whatever sport they may have chosen. Say, you are that great of a talent, number one, 90% of it is genetics. That's just calling a spade a spade. Nobody gives a shit one way or the other.
Speaker 1:How many stats you put up, they care about. What's your 40-yard dash? How tall is he? What's your wingspan? Why do you think these things are just so scrutinized over and over? That's the only thing that they care about. They're trying to build a super team is what they're doing they don't care about. Oh, this guy ran for 2000 yards, oh, but he ran a full 4940. Do you think he's a division one football player? No, he's not. So that's where it gets mixed up. So these kids that are some in some ways just thrusted into this Division I football, they're like it's like drinking water through a fire hose. They didn't sign up for this. They just happen to be 6'4 and a freak athlete and can go up and grab it one-handed. They don't know. So you know I go out and talk to some local high schools about the recruiting process and kind of map it out for the parents, because, number one, every single parent thinks their kid is a division one player, including my parents.
Speaker 1:I was the backup quarterback. I'm like you know, I at least had. If there's one thing about me, I have unbelievable self awareness. Even at a young age I was like, yeah, I don't think this NFL dream is really going to work out here. You know, 5'8" little senior, I think you've grown since then I've grown five inches since my senior year to crazy. So I mean, when you bring a player into your building and they're like what they're looking around, like what the heck is going on here, they some guys shut it down and that's where the misses come from. You think about if you look at 24-7 sports or on three or rivals or whatever it is, I just laugh and giggle. Yeah, oh, we knew this. We knew that. Look at the NFL draft. All of our five stars were right on it. Ok, anybody that actually knows what they're looking for it is so easy to pinpoint a five-star and four-star recruit. I was the first offer for Quinn Martin at Bell Vernon. Quinton played one game. His freshman year started one game.
Speaker 1:I should say I'm old school, okay, I open up the newspaper every single week the Post Gazette and would look at the touchdown scores. But I'm not looking for the four yard touchdowns, 12 yard touchdowns. I'm looking for the 70 and 80 yard touchdowns. That tells me this player is probably somewhat explosive In Western Pennsylvania. I probably probably need to know all the Division One players. Right, I'm working at Pitt. No Vernon, versailles, I'll quit. But it's like the quarterfinals or semifinals. Right, I'm working at Pitt, bell Vernon versus Aliquippa. It's like the quarterfinals or semifinals.
Speaker 1:This kid, q Martin's on the sheet like three or four times and these were only either the touchdowns or the turnovers. I can't remember exactly what it was. I think it was just touchdowns. Like who the heck is Q Martin? You know, I've been reading this damn paper every single week. I haven't seen Q Martin. Q Martin at Bell Vernon one time. But their starting running back was Dane Anden, who was unbelievable. High school running back senior probably ran a 4.940. Okay, first shore should have been the starter. But I turn on this Q Martin kid tape go through the entire game.
Speaker 1:I'm like who is this kid? Call up the head coach. He says oh yeah, he's a freshman. You know, we're still trying to get him in the swing of things. I think he's a freshman, we're still trying to get him in the swing of things. I think he's going to be really, really good. He'll probably be your level, probably in two or three years.
Speaker 1:I said, hey, coach, just letting you know I'm offering this kid tonight. He's going to be an All-American, potentially a five-star. And he was a five-star for a little bit. He dropped to a four-star late in his career. But I mean, if you're a top 50 player, you're a dude. You know only 10 guys are five stars. But did that? And then the other one locally in Western Pennsylvania. Pitt was the first offer. Come on, spell at McKeesport. I go first game of the season. I can't remember what it was. I was at KDKA radio. We go to a McKeesport game. Who is this kid Coach? That's a friend. I picked him out in warm-ups. I said who is that kid? Believe or not, that's a freshman. I said that's a freshman. Yeah, he'll be starting running back in safety for us 80 yard touchdown. Okay, there's a kid, come on, spell at mckee sport, need offer. He's currently top 10 player in the country. He's only going to be a junior, but that's but. That's how easy it is to pick out these guys.
Speaker 2:So when I was finishing my MBA, after I finished my fifth year at Pitt, I had one more year on my MBA. So I decided to coach at Franklin for one year and we had some kids who thought they were division one, weren't right. Like you get, it was a daily oh yeah, and so we were game planning for gateway, who had derrick davis oh yeah okay, but we're not.
Speaker 2:I'm not even looking at derrick davis at this point, because they were still talking about courtney jackson and they were like how come he has all these offers and we don't? And there was one play where he caught a bubble and he didn't gain that many yards, but it went, he went. He went 10 yards, like that.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Like from zero to 10, and I pause it, I rewind it and I'm like guys, look at him compared to everybody else on this screen. I was like that's why he has offers all over the country. I was like, no offense, we don't have guys in here that can do that. I was like, so that's why, yeah, and after like doing it a couple of times, they're like oh, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, kids don't know what they're really looking at. You know, especially I can remember being in high school looking around like, well, why did these guys have all these offers? The good news for me was I was the backup quarterback and the starter was a six two. I mean he threw the ball 65, 70 yards. Mind you, I'm a little guy. Okay, I'm not so little anymore In your high school. You can look it up on ESPN. It's hilarious. I went to an ESPN Nike Spark Combine. I was 5'8", 158 pounds, think about that. I threw the ball 60 yards. I had a rocket for an arm. Really anywhere in the Whitfield, except for Pittsburgh Central Catholic People don't believe me. They're like you can't throw the ball 60 yards. Okay, come out and see I started throwing. They're like my God, you can throw at that far. I'm like yeah, I have a really good arm. The starter at Central was a starter for four years at Maryland Perry Hills. It wasn't even close.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize that's who you played with. Yep so you were with Perry Hells era.
Speaker 1:I mean it wasn't even close Like Perry ran a 4.540, 1.62, could jump out the gym. He was like a freak athlete. I'm like, yeah, this guy is. I remember my mom and dad would be like, whoa how you doing against Perry. I'm like guys, this conversation is over. There's no way on God's green earth. There has to be an injury or something. And one year there was an injury, my junior year against Gateway in the quarterfinals of the playoffs. I can remember once again I was probably 5'7" a buck 40.
Speaker 1:At that point I was the backup quarterback at Central. I took pride in it. I can remember the offensive coordinator looking at me saying are you ready? It's like the third quarter, it's a three-point game, are you ready? And I just remember saying I'm ready to go. And he goes all right, go, take a couple snaps. I went under and I was like this going under. And I can remember the student section chanting my name and I can remember just thinking they just shut up. I'm trying to focus here. In the first snap this is before we get into the game now. First snap he snaps it right off the top of my hand and fumbles it and I looked at the center, said, well, what was that? He's like that was. That was my bad. I said, well, that can't happen, like we've taken a million snaps from this guy. And uh, you know we did. Did lead us to a nice field goal, had a nice little bootleg waggle type of deal, almost almost had a 30-yard touchdown. There was a kid, armstead Williams, big 33 player went to Purdue.
Speaker 1:Took it around. This thing parted like the Red Sea against Gateway to go to the damn semifinals here, and the only thought in my head was oh my God, I'm going to score a touchdown here. Armstead Williams comes from the defensive end position. Give him a stiff arm, and I have really long arms.
Speaker 1:My stiff arm was always deadly Like, no matter how little I was. There's one thing I had and it was a stiff arm. Hit him with a stiff arm. He was just so much bigger than me, get him on the ground. And he clipped my foot and I freaking tripped and fell. So embarrassing. How many yards did you end up getting? I think it was like five or six, but I mean like there was nobody, it was touchdown or nothing. He hit my foot and I like stumbled and like kind of rolled forward and I got. I did get the first time, but I got up and thinking like, oh, I just really needed to stay on my feet there. But you know, that's why he was a big 33 player, went to Purdue, I think he was an all-conference kid at Duquesne, but but yeah, armstead Williams ruined my high school career.
Speaker 2:How do you guys, or how did you guys, measure the give a shit factor?
Speaker 1:Oh boy, especially with Coach Narduzzi as the head coach you know he's a psychology guy we would bring kids in on visits. There would be four stars that we would turn away. The University of Pittsburgh not getting many four stars, okay. So if you can get a four star, normally you should take that four star, wouldn't take them. And my first couple of years there I didn't get the culture really, I didn't get the program. You know you have to be there to kind of understand it.
Speaker 1:And then all of a sudden you start seeing well, that four-star went to another school, got kicked out immediately. Four-star went to another school, never played. Four-star, you know, gets arrested. It's like, hmm, that give a shit factor really starts to. You really start to see it. The I would say the best class in the Pat Narduzzi era was that COVID class where we were getting all the four stars. You would make the case right now if you did Pat Narduzzi's 10 years ranked the recruiting classes. I don't even think it's a case, I think it's ranked the recruiting classes. I don't even think it's a case, I think it's a land a uh.
Speaker 2:I think it's well. What's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 1:Landslide, landslide. Yeah, it's a landslide, easily the worst class, easily the worst class. It was filled with four stars. But if you don't care, if you don't, you know you don't have those guys. It was COVID, so we couldn't get them in in person to kind of really that's where you really see, hey, do these kids? Are they sleeping in meetings? You know they have their hood up and headphones on. That's the, that's the key. Right there you can get the vibes real quickly. But uh, but yeah, the give a shit factor is a real thing. And if you don't have it, it's not about getting the best 53, it's about getting the right 53. That's famous bill belichick quote never had the best players, you have to have the right 53. That's a famous Bill Belichick quote Never had the best players, you have to have the right players. Big difference.
Speaker 2:Do you think that has something to do with why Pitt has such a good reputation and track record of developing guys that end up going pro?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and I think, you know, I think, mike Stacchiotti, the strength coach. I can't say enough good about him. There's a guy before him, coach Dave Andrews.
Speaker 2:You would have been with Andrews. I loved Andrews. Yes, I loved.
Speaker 1:Andrews, Great dude. I thought he was good when Stack came in. Were you? I don't think you ever left with Stack.
Speaker 2:I was right before Stack.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think Coach Andrews left. I think he was there one more year and then left. Gotcha yeah.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. I mean, it's not even close. It's not even close. Stack, he's got to be a top five. I'm not a big strength and conditioning guy. If he's not a top five guy, you know he probably got a chew in his mouth or something like that. You know he swears like a sailor. He's like a dude's dude. You know you're like man, I could hang out with Stack and then you get to talking with him and you're like this might be one of the smartest people I've ever had the pleasure of an encounter with and he just understands strength and conditioning to a level I couldn't even explain on the microphone. If you ask him what strength is, just ask him what strength is and he will give you an answer that makes total sense and it's not like the oh, the mental toughness of the this, the, that, when your body's under the bar, it's digging in deep. No, he gives you an actual answer and it's like, wow, that's exactly what strength is. This guy's really good Reads all these different books. I mean, his brain is so smart Getting a guy like that and getting players that care and aren't missing workouts and are doing the right things off the field and, you know, taking care of their bodies.
Speaker 1:Well, all of a sudden, you know you're starting to get guys with 40-inch verticals. You're starting to get guys that you know. I can remember our ACC season, we 2021, stack came in. He had laser 40-yard dash Guys, I think the number was 21. He said we had 21 guys run 4-4-9 or faster, and I can remember. Mind you, this 2020 year you weren't on the 2020 team, right? No, I was two years yeah you were 2018 team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the 2020 team had six or seven guys drafted. Yeah, I think it might have been seven or eight. Now that I think about it, seven or eight guys drafted. Paris Ford probably should have been drafted off that team. Six wins Lose all those guys Coming back in 2021, now you do have Kenny Pickett.
Speaker 1:That helps. I can remember looking at the recruiting staff saying if we have 21 guys running 4-4-9 or faster, then we're going to be ACC champions. There's no way that number's real. Well, all of a sudden, that number's real. And then Pitt has the most draft picks in a five-year period in the ACC. And it's just the development and guys putting in work and guys caring, multiplied by the fact that you have a guy like Mike Stachioti in that strength and speed room. My God, I mean it was a sight to see. It really was a sight to see and I really thought things were clicking, for Pitt 2022 changed everything.
Speaker 1:Nil changed everything because we had it all figured out. I mean we were legitimately beating Notre Dame on recruits. We were legitimately beating these bigger programs on recruits. We're like people are in trouble right now. We just figured it out. Then Jordan Addison leaves. Oh boy, nil has now entered the game. It flipped the game on its head. It was a complete game changer and I think you know they're starting to figure out now. Then 2023, look at the 2023 team Three wins. You know, there was one of those things where it was a whole new ball game. But I felt like, as a football staff, 2021, a whole new ball game. But I felt like, as a football staff, 2021 2022, we had this figured out. We had the evaluation figured out, strength figured out, the coaching, the development. We had everything all figured out and then nil, right on its head.
Speaker 2:I want to circle back to now. What makes you not a big strength and conditioning guy?
Speaker 1:no, no, no, no, no, no. I am all for strength and conditioning.
Speaker 2:I'm saying me myself personally myself, yeah, yeah yeah, okay, what with the jordan addison thing, I always say I never fault the players. Sometimes you do, but for the most part I fault the system, because really, spoken like a true player well, when you're a young guy and that type of money particularly, you know, I don't know where somebody Like I don't know Addison's background, Some people come from not very much money.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And seeing those types of paychecks can change you and your family's life.
Speaker 1:The problem I have Do you think a couple hundred thousand changed Jordan's life right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I mean in the time, but you don't know, correct.
Speaker 1:But you do know you'll be a first round pick in six months. What if he gets hurt, though? Okay, he'll be a second round pick in six months. Let me get my point, sorry.
Speaker 2:Because I'm very like you, think I'm going to come off as very pro player. I'm very pro culture and winning. I'm very pro culture and winning, yes, so, but what I say is I don't necessarily fault the players. Because that's a lot of money, yes, okay. And what comes down to it is when you're a player evaluating different things, one, those guys at that stage in their life aren't developed or I don't want to say smart enough to know the decisions that they're making, enough to know the decisions that they're making. I think what's hard is blaming the players deliberately. It's their fault. What are they doing? They need to have better people around them, educating them. Hey sure, usc offers you X, pitt offers you Y. What's best for you long-term? Sacrificing some in the short run to make more in the long run can be a strategic decision, because if you go somewhere, that's not the right fit from a schematic standpoint, that's not the right fit from a cultural standpoint, from a winning standpoint.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it could be over in a flash.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And so then now you went from oh, I got this $500,000 paycheck in college. Well, now I don't get the millions I could have in the nfl versus. Hey, I sacrificed right a couple hundred thousand and made a million on the back end.
Speaker 1:Really hard to do for a young guy, so it's like, and it's really I mean imagine being 17, 18 years old trying to make that exactly.
Speaker 2:Not let alone a 20, 21 year old in college thinking about transferring right even then, like I think about me and I've always been a more mature guy like in terms of my thinking, my decision-making, if I was coming out like so my fifth year, if I had been some big recruit, money 100% would have played like a big role you know, because it's really hard, as a player too, to understand who has genuine interest in correct, who actually is giving you the real versus who's giving you.
Speaker 2:You know, whatever you want to hear. Yeah, so for you being in that stage, how do you handle those?
Speaker 1:You know it's tough and I always say you know people are going to hate my opinion on it because I'm I'm not pro player. Now I do say this if people hate your opinion.
Speaker 2:You at least stand for something.
Speaker 1:I love when people hate my opinions. You can't make everyone happy. I mean I would say 90% of, really 99% of players will probably hate my opinion. You have to remember football for me when I went to Duquesne I went to Duquesne to be a student coach. You know I was always all in on football. I played at Central Catholic. I could have transferred a million different ways to play somewhere else. You know, like I was all in on the team, the team, the team do whatever it takes to win a championship. You know, when I was leaving Pitt I can remember like looking myself in the mirror and thinking like I'm legitimately quitting on this team, like that's what I looked at, like when players transferred I was like, well, that's like quitting on the team to me, you know. But the game just changed where it's like that's not what it is anymore. You know, I have to get myself out of that mindset. And the reason why I left college football was because of the transfer portal and because of NIL. I didn't like, I didn't like that about it. You know, I liked that the Pitt program was you recruit a guy and then you develop a guy and they're in that Pitt family for life. You know I can't tell you. Well, I guess I can now.
Speaker 1:I had job offers to run a recruiting department all over the place. Significantly bigger money, double, if not triple my salary would get them every couple months and I'm not out there searching for them. I thought I did good work. I always kept contacts with a lot of people and people would call and offer me jobs and I wouldn't even take an interview call. I was like no, no, I'm with Pitt and that's just kind of my take on football. I was never for football for money, money's nice. I was never for football for money, you know, money's nice. But I was in football for trying to win a championship, you know. So I don't know, I just thought it was, it was. The game has changed.
Speaker 1:I don't blame the players Like I think about. I was a college football junkie in high school. I can't imagine what I would even think. I had no idea. And I was a college football junkie at 17, 16, 17 years old. Some of these kids don't even know who's in the SEC, who's in the Big Ten, who's in the ACC, you know. So you know, I don't blame them. It's a little bit of ignorance on their part, but it's also the main people to blame are the NCAA and the leaders of these conferences. They're all about the money, colin. So why would the kids not be all about the money? That's the root of the evil. The guys making all the decisions for these players only care about the money. That's the problem.
Speaker 2:That's the hard part is we have an overarching societal problem of everything just being about the money Correct, as if money solves all your issues Correct. My favorite saying is money solves money problems.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It doesn't solve everything.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And so if you were head of the NCAA, how do you change NIL portal today? What's like your first three things? You do.
Speaker 1:I mean you can't do it now. What you needed to do was back in the 70s and 80s. Hey, if a car dealership wants you to be on a commercial kid, go be on the commercial. Hey, the NCAA video game wants Johnny Manziel to be the cover athlete, let him be the like. That was the solution they knew for decades. If they let that cat out of the bag, everything was on the table after that, and which is exactly what happened. So you know they kept it cooped up for years.
Speaker 1:But think about the players. Even as recently as you played with how much money would you know Paris Ford have gotten in NIL? You know, like things like that you go back and forth on. You want these guys to make a living because some of these guys aren't NFL guys. You know you look at I always go back. You know I came from Toledo. I was at Toledo for a year.
Speaker 1:They had the Mac player of the year, daquan Finn Baylor. Offers him one point whatever million to come be the quarterback. So he goes back to Toledo and says I don't know what to do here. You know, like I kind of want to be drafted. I'm like my pro outlook doesn't look great. You know all the people grading me, it's not a draftable grade. I'm a really good college football player. What should I do to his head coach says go make your money, go to baylor, like like that's, that's what you do, you know. So the the game has changed and I think that it's better, because these players do deserve paid. They're they, I'm telling you, they work 10 times harder than anybody in the damn business world. I can tell you that. Yep, so you know they deserve compensation for all their work, like how do you put structure?
Speaker 2:I think that's like it's just there's no legitimate knowledge of hey, what is a definitive offer? Who's giving it? What the the structure of it? Who's negotiating it? You have people negotiating contracts who don't even negotiate their own contracts you have people negotiating nil contracts that aren't even attorneys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have no idea. Some people don't even have jobs. Yeah, like it's. Like, it's like oh, I'm, I just got laid off.
Speaker 2:Actually, I, I got time to write the tv show entourage. Yeah, he was a manager of a whatever subaru or the pizza shop and then, all of a sudden, now is negotiating vinnie chase's correct project.
Speaker 1:That's literally what it feels like there was. This was one of the tipping points for me. Uh, going into that 2022 season would have loved to have a tight end at the university of pittsburgh other than gavin obviously needed one more lucas kroll graduated would have loved to have a tight end at the University of.
Speaker 1:Pittsburgh, other than Gavin, obviously Need one more. Lucas Kroll, graduated, would have loved to have another like senior guy with some receptions. There was a kid that went into the portal. He sent us a laundry list. Hey, talk it over with my people. This is what I'll need from Pitt Guaranteed a starting spot, a tutor for the playbook so that I know the plays. How X amount plays, um, how x amount of throws to me every single game, an apartment for for me, a job for my soon-to-be fiance, a blackstone grill, one of those. It was some sort of a car. I looked up the car price. It was like a seventy thousand dollar car and then the cherry on top, and also four hundred thousand dollars. It's like who is giving, like, like that's your list.
Speaker 2:I was like this and obviously we were like, yeah, that I mean you know where he would have lost me, honestly, is the tutor yeah, if you need a tutor to learn to learn the playbook, yeah I mean, if you have problems learning, okay, go to your coaches, yes, and say, hey, I'm having problems. Can you help me understand this? Yes to demand a tutor up front, like that's where, like that, give a shit factor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's crazy, I mean it was almost like he didn't want to work. It's like, no, you come in, you work, you're in a starting spot and then you get.
Speaker 2:It's not like, oh, hey, we're just gonna get a tutor for you for your playbook, because we got you from the portals, like that's the part that I think really gets lost in me as someone obviously with my shirt like I care so much about, like development and creating and engineering your identity as a person. Yeah, that is getting lost with the transfer portal. So I'm going to pick on the transfer portal here more than that in this point.
Speaker 1:I more than an hour in this point. I could pick on the portal for months.
Speaker 2:A guy comes in, if he's not starting right away, he's out Like he's leaving and instead of like I've not found, like the 80 year old screaming from my porch. But like, handling adversity does matter, correct Learning how to develop skills, learning how to compete when things don't go your way, those things matter, yes, and they transition, not only later in life, but they transition into winning football games. Because what are you going to do in the fourth quarter? What shred of evidence do you have in your life that you can handle coming back from a deficit or handling a game-winning drive if you can't compete for your starting job? And that's where, for me, that I loathe the portal more than the NIL. I think the NIL is a problem. The portal, to me, is the biggest issue with everything, because it reduces structure and it eliminates accountability from the player.
Speaker 1:Here is, and you are exactly correct. But once again, I think that the portal talk that is spot on. Okay, you are eliminating things in life that you have to build upon to grow as a man, to grow as a person and to have a family and be a productive member of society. But here's my biggest issue with them is now the numbers are getting a little better, but back in like 2021, 2022, if you went into the transfer portal, what are your chances of coming out as a scholarship athlete? You had a scholarship, you go in, oh, but what about Joe Burrow? Look, it worked out for him. Okay, yes, there's going to be anomalies. There's outliers. If you go into the portal, there was a 49% chance you do not come out as a scholarship athlete. So if you go in as a freshman, well, guess what? You might have just played your last snap of football ever and, by the way, now you got to pay for college. But they don't tell you these things. Once again, if there was player education, it's not on the players to learn all about this. They're full-time students, they're full-time football members. If the regular person saw the schedule that these players are put through, you can't even go home in the summer you get two weeks to go home, hey, say hi to family, do a lap around the neighborhood a couple times and then, guess what? You're right back because we got to win a championship and then that team will win four games. You know there's teams that do that. Some teams don't even win a game. These players are putting so much effort into it. So the portal, I thought, was a net negative.
Speaker 1:I loved, I thought, the perfect system if you could fit NIL into this system. You sign a letter of intent, okay, if you want to leave that badly, you sit a year. Or if you graduate, you're immediately eligible. Nowadays you can graduate in three years, probably quicker, if you early enroll With the summer classes that the NCAA gives. I do think the NCAA is really good on that. You know, getting these kids in the summer, getting them ahead of the curve, because it is tough being a student athlete.
Speaker 1:But if you graduate, hey, then go. That's what Joe Burrow did. People don't really People don't talk about that. I mean, that's what Russell Wilson did. You know, if you graduate, ok, now you can kind of start looking a little bit. So I thought that was really the perfect system for what it was. And even if you kind of complete that cycle like, hey, I came here for my degree, got my degree, I'm in that community. Now I would like to go get some more playing time, because there are situations where, hey, a kid's better. What do you want me to like? I have dreams and aspirations too, so I don't know. I think the portal was completely botched.
Speaker 2:As soon as you started talking, I knew exactly what point you were going to. Yeah, because nobody talks about that. And my own family, with my own younger brother, so he's at the Division III level, but he ended up transferring from a school to another school and I remember when that was going on they used that reference of Joe Burrow. I'm like okay, first of all, we're talking about one Division III athletics. I was like two. I'm like okay, first of all, we're talking about one division three athletics. I was like two. Yeah, for every Joe Burrow there's a hundred guys who come out without a team Correct.
Speaker 2:And they have nowhere to go. Nobody talks about that and there has to be some type of self awareness to know what bucket am I going to fall into? If I don't have any stats, I don't have any film. I can't just go back and rely on high school film, unless I was a five star Right us, I was a five star Right If you're a five star.
Speaker 1:You're going to find a spot.
Speaker 2:Right, then there's exceptions, but people never want to talk about the stories of bad outcomes, correct?
Speaker 1:And so and there are plenty of, and it's sad, yeah, and it's sad there were think about this. There was a player on the 2018 ACC championship team Okay was I would consider him a potential breakout star for the University of Pittsburgh Goes into the portal, never came out of that portal, ended up getting arrested, was in jail for a while. Who knows what he's doing right now. I know he didn't come back and get his degree, but he's probably doing something down in the South that I probably don't even want to know. Was the portal good in that situation? And guess what?
Speaker 1:Pitt had the lowest amount of players enter the portal in 2019 and 2020 in all of college football, and I think it was because everybody saw that player, saw what he did on the field, how electrifying he was on the field. They're like, well, he didn't get a spot. Well, what am I going to do? I think that it scared everybody. I truly believe that that there was something to that. They're like, well, he didn't go anywhere and I just saw his mugshot on Twitter. Like I'm not. They were looking. That team was looking at the portal. Like that's bad news. Right there, it was bad news and I still. It's gotten a little bit better, but marginally like a little bit better. So that's why I'm so passionate about it.
Speaker 1:If you want to go in the portal, sure go in the portal, but just just know that scholarship goes up in flames. You better have a spot because that scholarship guess what you want to pay student loans. Student loans aren't fun. You want that couple hundred bucks coming out of your bank account every single month. It gets hard. It gets hard quickly and I don't think people realize that and I don't think people educate these players on that. They think it's the recruiting process all over again. Oh, I love the recruiting process. I got to tweet on Twitter all my offers 40 times a year.
Speaker 2:It's not that I think it should be at least a three-year commitment. You commit to a school, you should have to be there at least three years. There should be. There can be stipulations, yeah, like exceptions written in the rule, like I'm not saying like hard. Three years, yeah, but in general, if you commit to a school, you should have to be there for three years.
Speaker 1:Well, it used to be the school's letter of intent. It used to be a four-year letter of intent and then if you got a red shirt they can kind of decide on a fifth year. If you graduate early you can kind of get out of it. It used to be four years and then all these colleges would give a high schooler a one-year scholarship offer. That was the, and guess who? It started with Colin. It started with the big money programs. They started the one year and that you know.
Speaker 1:It's like the trickle down scholarship yeah, one year renewable. And then it starts with the trickle down effect. You know both third doing it and winning championships, how I have to do that. What if I recruit a bad player? I'm stuck with them for four years. In these big money schools can come to kick rocks Once again. It goes back to the leadership levels of not just the NCAA but the conferences and the athletic directors, because that's an athletic director decision as well. And Heather, like you know, I thought Heather was unbelievable for the University of Pittsburgh the NIL thing she didn't love NIL and I think that it showed, but for what she was doing I think she was awesome. You know we gave our kids four-year scholarships, other schools wouldn't.
Speaker 2:How is that fair A story about. The first time I learned about one-year renewable scholarships was so Bucknell gave you four years. One of my coaches on staff played at Power 5 at the time, now Power 4. And he played at a university. I won't tell you say what Pitt hates it, but their coach at the time for that one year renewable. He would keep track of every player who was underperforming and he'd be like okay, how often are they missing class? How often do they lead to me? Oh yeah, did they do this? And they would use that. Go to the AD and say we got to get this kid out of here, correct?
Speaker 1:Because this kid out of here, correct, because they were underperforming on the field, yes, but the guys who performed on the field, yeah, there's blinders on with that one.
Speaker 1:Right, that's not right. That's not right and that's you know, and that's where I'm passionate against the NCAA and the decision makers that way, so that that there, I got the players back on that one. Yeah, you know, it's so be given. Well, here's the problem. There, there is a happy medium out there. Yep, okay, and if all these you know ads and commissioners and ncaa presidents and all that just got together in a room and worked it all out, the problem is all these big money programs, they're not going to want to hear it like do you value winning or do you value money?
Speaker 2:it's a legitimate question for ads and that's what sucks is like as a person, like winning, yeah, like, yes, money matters and there has to be some type of compensation, right, but winning should, in development, should, be at the forefront of everything do you know?
Speaker 1:you know that I'm going to be a massive fcs fan this year. I've always watched fcs football. You know, if there's football on being played, I'm watching. You know, north dakota state, south dakota, montana, montana all those they're good. Did you see what their ADs are saying? No, what are they saying? Oh well, there's major conference realignment talks going on. Well, why come? None of these top-end FCS teams are going to the group of five. Why not to the group of five? Why not? So you start to read some of the headlines and clippings of what their ADs are saying Just because a conference is giving you more money doesn't make it good for your program. We value development, we value winning. We value our trophy case that's awesome. We like playing in our FCS. They are a very rural community, so it's a little different. Value our trophy case that's awesome. We like playing in our FCS, we. You know they're very now. They are very rural community. So it is, it's a little different. It's a little different. It is a little different. But hey look, there's no difference.
Speaker 2:Caa all those schools are going to the Patriot League. Oh yeah, they're all going to the Patriot League right now, which to me that, as someone who came from Patriot League football and how much respect I had for the CIA or CAA I was like, oh my gosh, I was like they're actually making a stand.
Speaker 1:Yes, they're valuing education, they're valuing their commitment to the kids. That doesn't make major headlines, but the team, the four-win team, jumping up to the Mountain West, is making all the headlines. It's a joke. And you wonder why North Dakota State and South Dakota State have all these players drafted every single year? Well, that it's because the decision makers at those programs, the ADs and the presidents at those programs care. And North Dakota State how many head coaches has North Dakota State had in the last 15 years? You know, and they still. It doesn't matter who's leading up that team. It is still in the FCS playoffs and the national championship conversation. They're always getting players drafted. What other FCS teams and programs are like that? Every other FCS team and program? Well, how do we get to the best? How do we do this? How do we do that? North Dakota State still stacking championships, still getting players drafted, doing it the right way. I applaud them. So decisions like that, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to pay attention to FCS football a whole lot more now, you know.
Speaker 2:That's right. So obviously, you know, I just love the game. I don't care if it's high school football, I don't care if it's Division II, division III, fcs. I'm going to watch, but that does give me an extra incentive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really cool. That's the first time I heard of that and I think that's awesome. Think about this. I love using this example because I think that this was one of the most boneheaded decisions of all time to nuke an athletic department. In what year will the University of Oklahoma win the SEC for the first time?
Speaker 2:It won't happen for a while, or do you?
Speaker 1:think it will. No, I'm asking what year do you think Oklahoma? So I'm asking what year do you?
Speaker 2:think you can have Oklahoma, so I'm a big Venables guy Good, so good I'm rooting for him.
Speaker 1:Well, what year?
Speaker 2:Probably, I don't know, probably like a decade or something, right. Look at their big 12 success.
Speaker 1:I know hey SEC can pay us a little bit more. We're probably not going to win. That is the dumbest decision. When are they going to make the playoffs?
Speaker 2:again. I wish I was in those rooms because I am such a Venables guy I don't know how you feel about it I like Venables. I feel like I think he's a good guy. You hear him talk about the portal and that stuff.
Speaker 1:I think he's got fantastic Everybody from that Dabo staff in Cle Staff and Clemson. I think they're awesome. I'm rooting for them. I'm rooting for Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's going to happen, yeah, and so that's where I look at him and I look at the University of Oklahoma and I'm like where's that disconnect?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like because he is that job, I don't think he knew what he was getting into, right, and that's where I feel bad because he turned down multiple head coaching jobs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to stay there. His probable dream job opens up and it's just probably not total alignment and that's where I wish I could like peek my head behind the door to see where's the alignment, where's the disconnect, what's going on? Because I am such a Venables fan. I'm actually a massive Dabo fan. Yeah, I love Dabo Like outside of, like Pitt, and I grew up liking Oregonregon too and actually really like dan landing clemson yeah, them being the anti-portal and hilarious I love it.
Speaker 1:I, I root for them. I was rooting so hard for them to win the natty last year. I I hope it's this year, because they have a squad this year.
Speaker 2:I hope they run the table this year they actually went into the portal a little bit, but still less than everybody, two or three though, you know like it was like such a big deal. But I like club nick.
Speaker 1:I think he could be a good player uh, I think, I think he is a good player. Like when he was coming out, I was like this kid's a superstar. He's honestly let me down a little bit, just because my expectations him they weren't trevor lawrence, but they were probably.
Speaker 2:Uh, we came in he played as a freshman.
Speaker 1:He played as a freshman. Yeah, he's. I mean, he's an unbelievable player and I hope that he you know, I hope he's the first server I'll pick this year. They win the natty and every, and dabbo can kind of tell everybody yeah, oh little clemson.
Speaker 2:All of a sudden he's got the most amazing sound bites in relations. Yeah, transfer portal nil. And well, he cares, he stands for something and I do miss that element of college football where I've actually strayed away a little bit. I'll'll always like pits, Like I'll always be a pit guy but, like the rest of college football, where it doesn't feel as cultural anymore, like the rivalries don't feel as intense Michigan, ohio state that feels intense still, but people don't have as much pride in their school.
Speaker 1:Here's the problem, colin, and those rivalries that are so big and like, like they're getting bigger because there's so few of them left. Every team used to play three games a year where it's like, oh, this is a rival, like, hey, we're getting juiced up, and then all of a sudden, oh well, the series went dormant for 20 years. Well, how could that be? Like, do you care about the fans and the experience or no, everybody just cares about maximizing their money and the revenue and that's that.
Speaker 2:Give like my hard core opinions. Obviously I've given some opinions today. Normally I try and play like neutral in these conversations. There's one thing I'll die on the hill, don't care what anybody says. There's no excuse that pitt penn state and west virginia shouldn't play every year they should play.
Speaker 1:I mean you can even throw temple into that as well, yeah, Because I mean I'm sure Temple would love Penn State and Pitt on their roster or on their schedule as well. Yeah, you know, in West Virginia I'm sure Marshall would love to have West Virginia on their schedule every year. So there are give and takes to everything but rivalries. How is Pitt, Penn State, west Virginia not played yearly? I'll never understand that. You know, I actually almost went to Penn State West.
Speaker 2:Virginia, not yearly. I'll never understand that. You know, I actually almost went to Penn State for my fifth year. I don't know if you knew that. So like I have like respect, yeah, I hate them, but I have respect.
Speaker 1:I just saw Terry Smith downtown yesterday. Great guy, wow. Love to hear he's who recruited me.
Speaker 1:Oh, really Well, I told him. I said Smith guy, you know, because he does it the right way, he cares about, he truly cares about a guy in developing them and getting them to degree and change. He cares about changing lives. That's the difference to me. It's not all about and sure he has a ton of draft picks, ton of first, second round picks or whatever he cares about, hey, getting your degree, making you a better man, that's the difference for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so him and my uncle are close, and so that's how I almost ended up at Penn State.
Speaker 1:How close?
Speaker 2:were you? Okay, I'll tell this. So this is where, even as a mature quotations young man, where I have some guilt too. So I was basically committed to Penn State. The only reason I didn't sign to go in there was they. If I had, I wouldn't have been allowed to sit in their spring meetings and spring practices. I forget the rules why.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can remember that.
Speaker 2:Because I was still at Bucknell.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Okay, but as a recruit I could.
Speaker 1:I forgot about that stupid rule.
Speaker 2:And so when I agreed to that, I still, like, wanted to go to Pitt, but Pitt really didn't show that much interest. So I have a good relationship with the Pelosi family. Yeah, okay. So like Jeff Pelosi and his wife, like my mom, best friends, they were just in Italy together. Yeah, okay. So I said to him like I just don't feel the love from Pitt. Yeah, coach Narduzzi picks up the phone, gives me a call.
Speaker 1:I'm not like a big recruit.
Speaker 2:Let's, let's get that out there. I'm like preferred walk on, okay. But so he just picks up the phone, calls me, um, and I remember I was sitting in my driveway in my house and just like basically tells me, hey, like we do want come down, like for a visit, whatever. And so I went and obviously pit. I was like yeah, I'm going to go to pit, yeah, and I remember calling the phone, picking up the phone and having to tell Terry Smith, now, it couldn't be easy. Yeah, I was like, and like my voice was cracking.
Speaker 2:This was like the first, like real hard conversation, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's not easy to let somebody down and you have to let people down.
Speaker 2:Which we were on schedule that year, yep. And so I was just like hey, like really sorry, but like just in the easier cells, like I got to go into Pitt's MBA program, penn State, it was like Masters of Organizational Leadership. And so that's when I was like OK, and I was like I'm going to go to Pitt, I was able to get into their MBA program. They came in late, like sorry, yeah, but I say all that to say. To circle back to my original point like I hate, like the Penn State cult and how they're like why would we play Pitt? What do we have to gain from that? It's like don't act like it's not a cool rivalry. Right, act like it's not a cool rivalry. Right like it's. We're an hour and a half from each other, right, and I don't care what any pens like we're like is. Has pit been in the top 10 every single year for the last 20 years? No, but we're still respectable people yeah people know who.
Speaker 2:We won an xc championship two years ago, produced kenny pickett a first round quarterback, was third in the heisman. I think he's finished further in the Heisman than any Penn state player has in the last however many years. Right, so it's like, clearly like there there's respect, there there's tension, there, don't care what you say, that game should be played.
Speaker 1:It a hundred percent should be played, but it once again it goes down to the economics. Do you know why Penn state won't play it? So here's why. So, and I can remember being in Pitt All Staff Athletic, all Staff meeting. So you have the marketing department, you have every athletic, every athletic department. Anybody involved in athletics is at this meeting. There's hundreds of people there.
Speaker 1:When Pitt plays a West Virginia at home or a Penn State at home, you get legitimately tens of millions more dollars into your athletic department just through ticket sales. And I can remember one year we didn't have anybody like that on the schedule and I can remember Heather kind of saying we don't have that big football game, so we just have to be a little bit tight. We're here as a team, money's fine, but we're not going to overspend like we've been when we've had West Virginia and Penn State on the schedule and Notre Dame on the schedule and all that. So the reason why Penn State won't play it, let's just say the number's $30 million. Okay, say and I don't know these numbers, so I'm just going to rattle off the top of my head let's say Pitt Athletics in a year. We'll just use a nice easy number $100 million, right, they bring in $100 million. When a Penn State or West Virginia or Notre Dame is on schedule, they bring in $130 million. Well, that's a fairly significant bump 30% increase.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, when Penn State, okay, their athletic department, let's just say they use the nice easy number $100 million when they play, you know, a Pitt or a West Virginia or like a non-conference, that brings more in. It goes from 100 million to about 103 million. The bump isn't super significant for them, it's more. But they're like, well, they're getting a massive bump. They'll be able to do way more things with that money. We don't want to do that. And guess what? Pitt does the same thing to Duquesne basketball. They do the exact same thing. And I remember saying something to Heather like she, she, I got invited every once in a while she would pick some people to pick their brains in the athletic department and I got invited to do that one time. And you know she's like, oh, what should we? You know anybody have ideas? I'm like, yeah, I mean, we need to play Duquesne basketball. We want to. We want to cry about Penn State won't schedule us.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, we have to do the same thing to Duquesne you know, like, like say Duquesne, nice, easy money, duquesne no pit a schedule 1.3 million. You know it's a massive bump for them. You know you can't cry in one hand and then do the exact same thing elsewhere Messed up. But I am happy Duquesne and they're playing, I'll be excited for that.
Speaker 2:You know who did that? You no, come on, who did it?
Speaker 1:It was Panarduzzi, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Good on him. Yeah, good on him.
Speaker 1:Yep, I can remember him saying something along the lines of I can't remember who we were playing, it was 2020, 2021-ish, brought in a team. It was New Hampshire. I think it was New Hampshire 2021 year. He's like why are we playing New Hampshire? Like, why don't we support the local FCS programs here? Like there's Pitt, robert Morris, youngstown and then his alma mater, which was Rhode Island. He threw them a bone, scheduled Rhode Island one year. He's like why don't we help the local community? They don't have to. Like you know, we're putting New Hampshire up in this hotel. It's hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like Duquesne, we could give that money to them. They don't have to put a hotel in. That's major for the athletic department.
Speaker 2:Good on Deuce. Deuce Got to get you on the pod man.
Speaker 1:I mean that's a guy that cares about people, people and universities and the locality of it. It makes sense. Why would you not do it? Why would all these schools not do that? You know, and I mean Penn State does the same thing, like they scheduled Villanova the one year, so you know there's that. And West Virginia who's that? So you know there's that. And West Virginia, who's that. Fcs they schedule every once in a while, but same deal, like you, just keep the locality of it. Why is Duquesne flying down to play Florida State? They're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that, you know. I mean they could just play Pitt or West Virginia. They played West Virginia last year, now they're playing Pitt this year.
Speaker 2:So I think that's really cool. Four tweeners the guys and I put myself in this category, where a guy Absolutely were a tweener, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So have the speed of that level. Don't have the size but can make a good career. So for me to, for my listeners to give you perspective. So going into my senior year, I had one off Rose Bucknell. I picked up five more in season. So I picked up. I had multiple Patriot leagues, multiple Ivies typical demographic for a person like me. Then my big one was like New Hampshire. Ironically enough, they were the only school to offer me as a receiver. Every other school offered me as a defensive back, which I thought was funny. But for a tweener like me, how should they handle the recruiting process?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. You honestly, especially at the FCS level, you have to remember, position coaches are hard to come by in the FCS. Like full-time position coaches. You're going to be coached by a graduate assistant In some cases. I don't want to call them interns, but there's a guy like hey, we'll give you a thousand bucks a month for the season to come in and coach some people For FCS programs. That's a reality. You can only have so many full-time members. I mean, the athletic department is much smaller. So I would say the position coach is the key. Who do I want to learn the game of football from? There was a really good coach at Robert Morris a couple years ago and he ended up. His name is Dave Plungus. I think he ended up being their defense coordinator, but he was recruiting Western PA really well. I mean, he was turning out some really good players. He's now James Madison right now.
Speaker 1:I can't remember somebody telling me. I think it was a walk-on situation. It was like, well, I really like this coach recruiting me. I think I'm going to go to Robert Morris. And I was like, hey, go to Robert Morris. You know they're giving you a little scholarship At Pitt. You could only go walk-on or full. There was no partial, no partial. I was like yeah, like, hey, man, I'm rooting for you. If you really like this guy, go play your ass off for him and see how it goes. But I'll never forget they said he's one of the best minds that I've talked to and his name was Dave Plungus and I remember looking him up like who is this, Dave Plungus? But I follow this guy. He probably doesn't even know this, but I followed this guy's career just because I wanted to see, like, well, let's just see if this recruits, like when he's James Massey keeps, you know, he just keeps. He's a young guy to just keeps rising the ranks. And I'm like that recruit was kind of spot on there and that is something that I always look back on like for that recruit to have that conversation because I dealt with a lot of walk ons at Pitt at least the high school walk ons was like, hey, you know, we would have a spot for you. But it was almost like one of those things where, like, walk-on spots are hard to come by. So when it opens up, it's like, hey, we kind of need an answer, you know. So we, you know, take a couple of days, whatever. But but that was a situation where it was like I thought that recruit did really well, like, hey, no, I want to be developed here, I want to be played here. He's a great position coach. At that point he was a position coach. He then got promoted to DC at Robert Moore's and now he's at JMU.
Speaker 1:So I think that's the way to kind of go about it, because if you're a tweener especially, you don't know what you're going to get into because, hey, some guys like me at linebacker, some guys like me at safety, some guys like me on offense Okay, well, I would assume in this situation with a player like yourself, you're a football player Tell me where to go coach, what can get me on the field? Because that's the reality of it, what can get me on the field? I'll go do that. Well, that's where you got to talk to the position coach. And if you're a tweener, I would talk to a couple of them. Well, where do you project me? Where could I be played? Talk to all those guys and then just make an informed decision, because at the end of the day you kind of brought it up earlier. Your instincts normally are correct. So you'll get the feel You'll get the feel.
Speaker 1:I can't tell you enough the when I would get job offers to go to other places to run a recruiting department. There were two that I was like up at night tossing and turning and I probably had and this is kind of a crazy number, I'm not trying to brag here, but I probably had like 10 or so offers to go elsewhere and I would always stay a pit. But there were two that I'm like tossing and turning up at night because I was like I don't know man, I think I think that this might be the one like if I want to better my career, I probably have to go here and then I would wake up the next morning but put on a pit tee and you, you know, bite the work, or whatever. I was like nah, I'm this, like it just feels right, right here. So I'd call up the coach. Hey, appreciate the offer, no dice.
Speaker 2:I'm a big believer in sleeping on decisions.
Speaker 1:People say that you have to.
Speaker 2:but if you make and you always are operating with emotions, so I don't like saying an emotionless decision, but a controlled emotion decision. Usually right before bed, when you're thinking about making a decision, you're not thinking in the most rational state of mind, you're not thinking objectively and so sleep on that decision. Let everything in the nervous system calm down. Wake up, drink a glass of water. Normally you have clarity and you have clarity, yeah, and I think it's important to give my perspective. Living through that situation. So committed to Bucknell before my senior year picked up those offers, new Hampshire had me thinking.
Speaker 1:I was like I wanted to be a receiver.
Speaker 2:Like I was, like I want to be a slot receiver, but at that time there was no Hunter Renfro yet he became because we were the same age, yeah, so he like became a thing, and then the slot white receivers became a little more prevalent. But it sounds like, yeah, I'm going to go to Bucknell end up being great decision. So my fifth year right, I had other offers from FCS schools because I can imagine, yeah, you, I mean you were.
Speaker 1:It's like a good career, bucknell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a good career. My and my coaches handled it Awesome. I will say I would have went back to Bucknell for my fifth year, but Bucknell has a rule.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You can't play a fifth at Bucknell, right? No, I'm not, and I couldn't stay on campus, yeah, so I was like I'm not taking, I'm not going home.
Speaker 1:Right For a semester.
Speaker 2:Right, like not doing that. So my coaches were super cool. They helped me with the recruiting process, not only gave me the waiver, but helped me and helped me, like, make an informed decision. Oh, yeah, me. When you're making that decision as a tweener, deciding between scholarship, preferred walk-on One, you have to be either in a financial situation where I can either, a take on a loan and pay it off or, b be lucky enough to have family members who can help facilitate that cost as well. But then understand what is most important to me. And so for me, in those shoes, it was. I knew I could go to an FCS school and play, contribute, maybe be another all-conference guy, but for me I felt I had proved what I needed to at that level, and so I didn't want to go through the rest of my life wondering was I capable enough to play up a level? And so for me, if I went to Pitt and I had played zero snaps but I tested myself I was more okay with that.
Speaker 2:I was okay with that failure than I would have been succeeding again at the FCS level.
Speaker 1:When you came to pit now this is here's a good question, because we used to get situations like yours a lot, and even in recruiting they're like no, I just I know I can do it, I just want to go see. Was there a moment where you're like okay, this is much different than I thought. So I'll say this Did you come in thinking like, hey, I could probably win a starting spot?
Speaker 2:So I did come in with those aspirations but like my mentality and you got to understand, well, you have to have the mentality.
Speaker 1:If you don't, you're fucked yeah exactly and that's exactly.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm coming in, I don't care what the odds are. I was like I'm coming with the mentality I'm playing the first like oh shit. Moment. Honestly, it wasn't even on the field. It was when I walked in and my name was nowhere to be found on the depth chart and I was like fuck, and I really don't swear, but like I'll never forget that that was probably the deepest pit in my stomach I've ever had. And I had cause. I was there, I was signed, I was in class. I was like I have two choices. I was like I can let this bury me or I was like I got to pick up and have a was fast.
Speaker 2:And I was so excited for this day, and so boom we go. I finished second amongst the defensive backs. I was with Damari Mathis.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, there were some dudes in that.
Speaker 2:Ian Jackson Dane, yeah, I remember because I was next to Dane Dane's, one of my favorite teammates, and he was like what's going on? I remember Archie Collins going like why are you losing to this? So again, second one, boom, second again. The only one that could beat me was Philip Motley.
Speaker 1:Oh, and he could fly. He was a 4-3-2 guy, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I'll never forget going right up alongside him for the last one, finishing second again.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I remember Coach Narduzzi pulling me up over to the side. I wonder if he remembers this conversation. Probably not, because it's probably insignificant to him, but he goes and he's like eating some snack. He goes was it after practice, but like yeah yep, he was like so you can run with these guys, it's like I can, and so that was like for me like really cool.
Speaker 2:But like I mean, yeah, damar, damari pinoc, look at those guys, yeah yeah and so that was like the always thing for me is like I knew I was smaller, like I was such like a niche type player, but so that was like the, the tough, like the. The realization is like I am yeah, yeah, yeah, like I can run I can do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can jump with the guys, but like I'm always going to be at that deficit, yeah, um, so that was for me like the realization and like what I say. Like because a lot of my teammates who didn't get that fifth year cause I had an, I had an ACL injury, so I just got the medical red shirt, um, cause Bucknell didn't red shirt, for whatever reason you could apply. But most of my friends were like, yeah, I'm, I'm good leaving. They would always ask me, like what's the biggest difference? I was like, realistically, at Bucknell, so we had two guys get or one guy get drafted. Another guy ended up being a seven year NFL vet and I was the only other one to go. So Julian Davenport. So he was left tackle, I'm going to some right tackle too.
Speaker 1:He was. We used to play Bucknell. It felt like yearly at Duquesne. They would always. You know, it was so annoying. The one year we beat them I was like, all right, we might be good and we ended up winning the conference.
Speaker 2:I think that was. I think that was julian senior year 2015 no, so you guys beat us again. Oh yeah, that was 2015. That was julian's senior year.
Speaker 1:Um the kid got a brain.
Speaker 2:He, uh, he was at bucknell by accident. He was six, seven, yeah, could play point guard. That happens like it happens. So he ended up being a third round draft pick. Then abdul anderson was the other one. He went undrafted. I think he actually might still be playing so longer in the nfl career, but stuck around, got some starts, practice squad, whatever, yeah. And then there was me and then our punter. Other than that, I I always say I think maybe like two to three could like go and play right, like not just like whatever, but like letter. Yep, okay, I was like that's like the difference, yes, is like you get maybe two to four guys.
Speaker 2:That could be productive in the sense of like hey, I'm gonna go play, not just fill water people don't realize it.
Speaker 1:I mean moving up a level. It's different. Oh boy, is it different. I mean moving up a level it's different.
Speaker 2:Oh boy, is it different. I mean, you could be, I could take plays off of Bucknell Like I'm Mr Lock-in, but like don't get it twisted. There are plays where I'm chilling in that corner where I'm like I'm just going to take a little, I'm going to be about Catch my breath a little bit. Yeah, when I was at Pitt, Every rep was my Super Bowl. Yeah, like every single rep and you would see in practice on film me running down on kickoff. Everyone's kind of coasting. No, there's Colin.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Flying. I had no choice. Yeah, like I had no choice. Every play was my Super Bowl, every single one, and that's like the difference.
Speaker 1:And I'll give you another scenario. I won't say the player's name, but he was a conference player of the year for his position of the ball, His whole position of the ball. Okay, Not conference player of the year At the FCS level. Says I know I can play at the Power Five Kind of short, really short, alarmingly short for the position you want to play.
Speaker 1:I told him this, told the head coach this, said, hey, I think he should stay wherever he's at, become a legend at that place. I said he'll look back in 40 years. He'll be good Carlo. He just wants to see. He just and I have full faith in him. I said, hey, I have full faith in him too, I'm just saying. I said, and if there's one guy that's going to go to bat for him, I know it's going to be Pat Narducci, because he loves him too.
Speaker 1:Came in his eyes were like this I mean just absolutely, he was too small. Yeah, he was too small. And at the FCS level he was an animal. He was conference player of the year. He shut down, shut, completely, shut down was a shell of himself. And shut completely, shut down was a shell of himself. And you can't do that, you have to rise to the occasion. But it was like one of those realizations where he was like maybe, I can't. Well, he would have been an awesome special teamer, he probably would have had certain packages one way or another later in the year, but no, he completely shut down, didn't even start on scout team by the end of the year.
Speaker 1:And that's where it's like you have to have the mental toughness to understand. Hey, this is a different level. Like, think about this, rashad Weaver. You know people thought Rashad Weaver was too slow, but he was 6'6", his wingspan was unbelievable. It's like big people move little people, you know. And he was big. Sure he wasn't fast. Patrick jones was fast on the other side, but weaver played to his advantages. And it's like you have to understand, at the power five level, sure, not everybody's gonna be unbelievable speed unbelievable, this unbelievable but they're going to have something. They're gonna be dudes that they can fall back on. That you don't have exactly. Then you need to have an answer one way or the other, and that could be your mental fortitude. You know, like no, I'm going to figure this guy out, I'm going to keep going at him, like so I think for guys like you, I've seen it both ways where you know you come into a program, you give your all, you find your role play with your freaking heart on your chest, you know on your sleeve, and people love that. But then there's also that other side where it's like there's a realization Holy smokes, I can't do this.
Speaker 1:We had a quarterback one year. Great guy man I can't Derek Kyler, I think his name was in 2022, I think Brought him in as a backup Conference player of the year at Dartmouth. Dartmouth film was unbelievable. Comes in, it's like where the hell is that Dartmouth film? But it's the game is and it's a completely different. And he, you know he's a nice little player, but he came to be a backup. You know he was kind of helping us out, but he wanted to see power five level and I think he wanted to get into coaching as well. So, uh, you know, he was a good experience for him, but he was like man, this is, this is different. This is different, particularly the quarterback. Yes, that's the biggest.
Speaker 2:Yes and like the mentality has to be different and and I got fortunate from a genetic component mentally the challenge didn't scare me off and it was the sense. Like I said, it was less outcome focused and it was more. I'm going to go in and do everything I can.
Speaker 1:The players like that will make it in college football. It doesn't matter what level. They will make it in college football.
Speaker 2:And that's where like and I always caution like that exact example, like the conference player of the year right. Like you can't come in with. Like those sunglasses on Correct, like you're like, I'm the guy.
Speaker 1:Be humbled real quick.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and that you have to be ready to be humbled, and I'm like I don't want to put negativity in people's minds where it's like you know, oh, I'm preparing to like fail, it's like no, but you have to be, have a plan for failure correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have to be able to bounce back.
Speaker 2:You have to be able to navigate and be adaptable on that path. And that's where it's, like, you know, my, my, my niche is like that identity. It's like, well, I'm, I'm gonna be the type of person that does this, regardless of whether I'm number one or whether I'm nobody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my actions and who I am fundamentally doesn't change I started, started doing some consulting work for high school teams and even like it can get down to like a personalized consulting for families. You know, just talk about college football because, talk to every single family, my son's D1. Okay, well, let me ask you this when you go to a program and you're not playing for three years, how are you going to feel when you're not even on the depth chart? Well, I'm not going to like that. Okay, well, you don't have any scholarships right now. Why don't you go to a Cal? U practice, a Slippery Rock practice? Then go to a WNJ practice, john Carroll practice, a Westminster practice, going to a program? You know, like sure everybody wants to be D1 and flashy lights.
Speaker 1:I think it's better to go to a program where you can find a way onto the field, find your little role. If you become a starter and you're an All-American great, you'll probably be able to transfer up nowadays anyway. But I think it's better to be in that community. There are some guys you talk to those PSAC guys and I mean you really talk to these PSAC guys. The Cal? U's, slippery Rocks, the Edinburgh's, all them. They will die for their school and for their team. And I'll tell you what those communities are just as prideful as the Pitt and Penn States are. They might not be as big but they're just as prideful. So I think people don't really realize that. People also don't understand how good like PSAC football is. I always tell them go to Cal U practice and tell me how good your son is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, honestly, you'll find out real quick. Even the WJs in the Westminster's John Carroll's, they have dudes. Yes, they, john Carroll's, they have dudes. Yes, they have got. I know for a fact because I've been there. I'm like this guy could have played a puck now. Yeah, they could have played. But you only have so many scholarship offers and it's always going to defer to the size, length, speed type, even at the FCS levels, the next tier down, yeah, and it's like, but if you go somewhere and just play, one.
Speaker 1:You're going to have a better experience. You're going to love your college experience.
Speaker 2:And it's easy for me to say come down. Well, you played at Bucknell, you had the scholarship, you went up and lettered and did whatever. And it's like, yeah, I get that. But I'll never forget a conversation I had with my stepdad and I was an 18-year-old kid'm like crying Cause, like I was 17 at the time, cause before I picked up my Bucknell offer and it. And he's like, well, like we're going all over the like the country, like what, like what else can we do to get you a scholarship offer? And he was like we have to like decide at some point, like are you going to walk on somewhere? Are you going to go to WNJ? And I'll never forget saying you know the ego mentality I was like if I don't get a scholarship offer, I was like I'll go to WNJ and set like all kinds of records, like that was like my mentality, like I was going to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, trust me, it's awesome to have you know goals. It's like a fine, I want to do this one, do that, want to do that, but then also realizing like, hey, I also want to have a good experience, I want to play, I want to be a football player.
Speaker 2:I don't just want the accolades or the notoriety, it's the root cause of it. Right, I want to be a football player. Yeah, you know, and unfortunately you weren't blessed with the genetics of some of these guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say it's 90% for for to be a dude Right. You just like share some work hard, but it's.
Speaker 2:I've seen a lot of lazy dudes that have 40 offers that he's not working hard, you know, and so that's why I like even that work hard conversation. It's like you can't look at the guy who's six, five and runs a four, four when he wakes out of bed and have the same work ethic as him and you also have to have that reality, like, even if you work infinitely harder, still might not be better.
Speaker 1:I like telling people this Okay, you want to play college football? Wonderful, there's a and I have the number I can. I could probably pull up on my phone. But numbers like 240,000. Okay, 240,000 seniors that are playing high school football this year, how many times a day do you work out?
Speaker 1:I work out once a day. Good, so do the other seniors. Time to go to sleep at night? Probably like 11. You're not getting the edge up there either. What are you eating? What's your snack closet? Look like you know Oreos. You don't have the edge there either. All of a sudden, those little things. Are you stretching? No, stretching, what do you mean? Yeah, I stretch before working. No, no, no, no, no. Like yoga, like bands doing it? No, I don't do that. Oh well, you don't have the edge there either. You better find something, because all the high school seniors in the country are working out once a day. All the high school seniors in the country. You know they all care, and I think that's a beautiful part about our society. They all care. But guess what? You have to realize that's also your competition. You want to go play college football? They're your competition too. So you better be doing something. You better be doing something to separate yourself.
Speaker 2:It's in like. It's hard to get young people to accept that too.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's like the maturity aspect. That's really, really hard, and I do my best to articulate that to the young guys that I speak to and work with. It's like I want to be fair because you're a kid, yeah, but if you're not, this-. These are your goals Exactly. There's got to be an understanding. There's no more every Saturday night going to the high school field party.
Speaker 2:There's no more. Hey, I'm going to eat a box of Fruity Pebbles today. There's no more. Like, cinnamon toast is my breakfast. Like you have to maximize every bit, and if you don't want to, after realizing what it takes, that's okay, that's fine, yeah, go have a great high school year.
Speaker 1:Go, do whatever you want, that's a good thing to have, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like no judgment. You have to make that decision with no judgment on yourself. But if you really want this at your current level, you have to do everything different than everybody else. Okay, love this kid to death. Football playing wise. It was like for the first couple of years yeah, you got to do this pal, you got to do that pal. Well, then he comes to me. Well, I want to play college football. I said, logan, if you want to play college football, I will do everything in my power to let you play college football If you prove to me that you want to play college football. I said, because I'm not recommending you at your current state. You want to have a good time playing ball.
Speaker 1:He's been having a nice little career at Seaton. I said, but you need to do this, this, that and that. Well, that's a lot. Yeah, well, you're way behind. He's had an unbelievable spring, unbelievable summer training. He's starting to actually look like a dude when you go and take him to college camps. I he's starting to actually look like a dude. When you go and take him to college camps, I'm like man, he's like I'll be able to like call some guys and say like he actually is going to be able to do something. I said and I said to him you know, cause he's starting to get some confidence, like yeah, I'm just feeling. I said, imagine if you were doing, imagine three years you would have been doing that.
Speaker 2:And that's the big thing too. Like people were like hey, can you reach out to this person for me? And I'm like no, yeah, like, like, my word is only as good as my word. If you want my word to carry any weight, yes, you have to.
Speaker 1:That's kind of what I told him. I said you have to earn it, yeah. Yeah, I said I will pull every string possible. But like I love him, like he's my little brother, Like our families are very close, Love him like he's my little brother, I said I'll make a call. It was last camp season. He skipped a camp to uh, to go cut grass. You know he had a nice little landscaping business. I said, buddy, you're skipping a camp to cut the grass.
Speaker 2:Doesn't work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you think I'm making a call for you. No shot, pal, no shot, and it was almost a little bit of a wake-up call for him, but no, I'm super proud of him. I think he is going to go play college football next year. I don't know where yet, though, but it's just one of those things. The kid is all work right now. You would be stunned, and I'm so proud, cousin moment. I'm like hey, he really flipped a switch.
Speaker 1:He's looking like a dude, you know feeling really good, but if if you're not working, there's not going to be people to that are going to go to bat for you. You know at least work hard enough that somebody would like you had somebody going to bat for you to come to pit. If you have that, it's a major major deal, major deal.
Speaker 2:Well, the sake of time, I appreciate you coming on. I had a bunch of questions here. I don't think I asked any of them, man, okay, let's keep going. Are you good, beautiful? Let's see here. I like this one right here. So, going back to that, give a shit factor. What are the questions you ask to determine, hey, is this a good fit for the culture?
Speaker 1:That isn't really like things that you can almost kind of ask a kid straight up. It's kind of feel, it's almost like a feel factor. And I'll tell you the dudes, when he gets them in his office it's like an office kind of like this. You know he'll sit with them and the whole family for like an hour and a half and probably get a good feel. But it's bringing them on campus, getting them around the players, let the I'll let the players tell you.
Speaker 2:I will say because I hosted a couple. I actually ended up hosting one of our best players that Bucknell has had in the last however many years and I remember the coaches they were like really give us your opinion.
Speaker 1:And I was like bring him. I was like get him here, yeah, and it ended up being really close.
Speaker 1:The players that there was a kid coming from Florida Unbelievable film, really good and it was almost like why is he leaving Florida? But it's us and two other programs that normally we would beat, bring them up on an official visit. Players tell us hey, he's not for us. Okay, well, why? Well, players, you know they don't protect the guy you know, Get down to a nitty gritty. Oh, he's bringing drugs around, doing this, doing that, he's on his official visit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we don't take. The kid goes to a different team, never played. I was like give us his film at florida. I mean, just like, why is it like this kid should be entering the draft? Like why is he in the portal? You know, give a shit fact.
Speaker 2:No, worried about the wrong things do you think you can change those guys like, do you think you can bring in a guy?
Speaker 1:maybe not to that level. Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely I. I go back to the story I told about one of the first guys that went into the portal. Do you think you can bring in a guy? Maybe not to that level. Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely. I go back to the story I told about one of the first guys that went into the port of a pit that you know ended up having a mugshot and all that. That kid would have succeeded in life if he had stayed at pit. That's why I'm so passionate about those things. He would have gotten his college degree. I don't know if he would have been an NFL player. He would know. If he would have been an NFL player, he would have had a cup of coffee in the NFL. I'm sure maybe would have made a couple plays every here and there, but it would have been life-changing for he would have had a job coming out, would have been able to. You know, do all these things went into the portal?
Speaker 2:now you can't, so so when are you willing to take that chance on someone like, how, like is it a?
Speaker 1:talent. No, it's 100% a talent thing. Oh, oh, it's 100% a talent thing. Oh, yeah, oh, it's 100% a talent thing. Yeah, so the more talent you have, the more leeway, more leeway, you know, in 2021,.
Speaker 1:I always used to laugh, and you know this you have to wear specific gloves, you have to wear specific cleats and, you know, be a team guy. You're not going to go out and wear pink gloves and be different than everybody else, you know. Well, there was one guy If you wore black gloves, what are you wearing black gloves for? You know you're not a team guy.
Speaker 1:Hmm, well, I can remember a couple of different highlights of Jordan Addison wearing some black gloves and it just seemed to be like every time Jordan walked by, coach, coach, it's like one of those. The receiver coach, you see, the head coach, you know it's like a little bit of blinders on. So it 100 is a is a talent thing, you know. So, uh, and obviously that's like a tiki-tac little funny story, but but it, that is real. You know, the better you are. Yeah, I could probably put up with that guy. Hey, this kid has, you know, kid has 54 parties in high school, I don't know. Oh boy, he really bends that edge, though you know I'll get him up myself if I got to you know. So it's like one of those things where the more talented.
Speaker 1:You are the, but now that's a could be bad as well. You know, you, those you'd look at some guys get to the nfl and oh, how'd this first round pick bust? Well, they probably getting Johnny Manziel. I mean, he tells stories all the time of like Cliff Kingsbury picking him up.
Speaker 2:He's drunk at his house in the morning from the night prior, you know we go back to that like working hard conversation, like what are you committing to? Like off a bender? Johnny Manziel goes into Tuscaloosa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, committing to like off a bender.
Speaker 2:Johnny Manziel goes into Tuscaloosa yeah, but yeah, like beats Alabama. Yeah, like imagine how naturally gifted yes, you have to be thing and think about this.
Speaker 1:He goes to the NFL. He legitimately did this. He flew on in, partied in Vegas all weekend before a game and then got caught and you know he was like, oh man, well, that's what I did in college. He didn't have the talent level to do that in the nfl. Yeah, lawrence timmons or not lawrence timmons, who's the greatest pass rusher?
Speaker 1:lawrence taylor oh, he would party. You know you hear the lawrence taylor parties. You know he, he did some things, but guess what? He could sack that quarterback and all of a sudden those blinders come on for those things. Yeah, it absolutely is a is a talent thing. And then there's also a thing like hey, he's a great kid, we're going to help him out, do this, do that.
Speaker 1:So there's those stories too where if you're that great of a person athletically on the field, charlie Partridge I won't say the kid, because everybody loved this kid at Pitt had no business being on a roster and at the end of every you know we go through the depth chart each other say so-and-so, he's a great kid and that's all you needed. That's all he needed to say. It's like coach, we're keeping him around, everybody loves him. We don't have to do this. You know, I know we do. On that depth chart, you go through every single player on that roster. Third string long snapper, you know, hundred string linebacker. You go through everybody. How'd they do today? Yada, yada, yada. Every coach he's a great kid and it was.
Speaker 1:He got his degree and that was everybody had it. Walks around with that pit logo, with pride and for good reason. You know, like everybody loved him, he impacted those teams just from him being a great kid Everybody's got a role.
Speaker 2:Yes, sometimes you're the great kid. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he would do. If somebody told him, hey, army, crawl 100 yards, and the field's full of nails, he'd be like, oh.
Speaker 2:I'm doing it.
Speaker 1:So there's a role for those kids too, and that's so. Yeah, it's not necessarily a talent, it could be other things as well.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's not necessarily a talent, it could be other things as well. It's funny because the apparel I was a constant get yelled at apparel guy because I always had the baggy shirt and Narduzzi hated that. But it was never him that yelled at me, it was always the same coach. It was always Coach Salem. Oh yeah, Because he was always special teams. Right, I'd be on kickoff and I'd get a shirt on. God, doesn't coach say that he hates that. I'm like oh yeah, you're right coach. I tuck it in as I'm walking back from my rep.
Speaker 2:I untuck it, but I constantly, so you just got to be smart with it, right? Yeah, no, it's just so funny because he's or coach Nargizzi's always been that way and I think it's a good thing.
Speaker 1:You know, I think there is a correlation there. You know everybody made fun of it when it happened after the 2020 season. You know, eight guys drafted whatever nine. I think it might have been nine. I think I might have undersold it earlier. I think it might have been nine.
Speaker 2:At least when I was at we had dudes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it was crazy.
Speaker 2:We had, like, I mean, you know, weaver Pat Jones, yep, we had Damar Pinnock, damari Hallett, freshman, not even playing that 2020 team.
Speaker 1:If you go back and look at that roster, the amount of draft picks on that roster somebody crazy, yeah, but uh, but even your roster in 2018, they would. They were just all two years away. Yeah, they were just two years away coming up.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think who are some of the other guys. I mean even, like you know, think about Allison and Hall.
Speaker 1:That yeah, yeah how could I forget? Like yeah, allison, my god mary's french was in the cfl for a while even rara.
Speaker 2:I know he didn't play in the fl good player. Yep haba was a freshman.
Speaker 1:Yep um, I know I'm forgetting I know who played in the cfl for like four or five years who else I know? I mean dennis was the greatest lead ever dennis two times, like one of the only two time captains in pit history you know.
Speaker 2:So paris was like that yeah, 2018 kenny, like I forget kenny, then we have books.
Speaker 1:You know we had jimmy morrissey like uh, oh yeah, forgetting on the interior you start.
Speaker 2:I know we had, I know we had shane roy he didn't tino was in the interior, there you know was there and uh who was it no, steph millen was the next year no, we had steph.
Speaker 1:Oh, steph was 2018, he would have been drafted it was nolan yeluzio in 2019. Yes, steph millen was 18.
Speaker 2:Steph was, would have been drafted. The only person in my life you know people always say like, oh, I could have played division one if I wanted to, or I could have played in the nfl if I wanted to he's the only real life example that could literally say, yeah, I could have been drafted if I wanted to, but I chose not no doozy told him.
Speaker 1:He said just go get drafted, sign the contract, it's guaranteed money. And then just tell him you're done, yeah, you'll collect a couple hundred thousand.
Speaker 2:He didn't do it craziest thing I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, because he was a dude. I'll never forget. I love staff, he's a great guy, but that team was a lot better than people realized. Yeah, he blew out his acl but like q could have played in the nfl absolutely could have uh who else that 2018 and you want to talk about that 2018 team.
Speaker 1:Even so, talk about getting punched in the face a couple times early in the season and just bouncing back. That's the adversity.
Speaker 2:I still say if Jimmy Morrissey didn't get hurt, if Morrissey didn't break his ankle when we beat I forgot about that when we beat Wake Forest.
Speaker 1:I forgot about Miami, and we didn't even need to use that play against Wake Forest.
Speaker 2:We already had the game in the bag and I'm not a big if guy okay, but like jimmy morris he doesn't get hurt would have been a different we beat miami, we, I forget, I think that was our last game. Oh yeah, so we would have went into ac championship game.
Speaker 1:We would have put with a lot of confidence yeah, better fight.
Speaker 2:I think we would have been in like one of those premier bowl games this.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, I would say this. And people don't realize this. This is and people don't realize this. This is another one. People don't realize this. Sure Clemson kind of kicked our ass in that ACC championship game.
Speaker 2:That was also one of the best teams ever.
Speaker 1:Yes, they were. But there was a moment in that game where I was like holy smokes, when Oleson scored that touchdown I think it was like 10-7 or whatever I was like and we're getting the second half kickoff I was like we're kind of in this thing, we were in it and then, you know, clemson ends up blowing us out a little bit at the end there. But in that six-year stretch that clemson was winning those title games. We were the closest day.
Speaker 1:Yes, by final score and I remember thinking like final score, it was a bad. It was much closer than the score indicated, but we were still the closest score.
Speaker 2:Clemson was just on a freaking whole, nother level that game too, because that was like for me, like embracing that moment, like that was like peak of my career type thing. So I was locked in the a couple defining moments early in that game. First play the game etn goes, 80 yards, 80 yards gone. Okay for me, like being a football guy, I was like all right, like that happens, yeah, like I've seen that happen in teams lose. I was like what I want to see is how are we going to hold up against the four first round draft picks on their d line? And I'll never forget clo and farrell going right around books. Our first play oh yeah, boom drops kenny. So that was like that's where too, like we're like, hey, if we, if we have Jimmy Morrissey, we're able to kick a little bit yeah.
Speaker 2:We're able to control that a little bit more. We ran the football Well.
Speaker 1:Oh, we, like we were in that game, I mean, and it was it rained, I mean it was a little bit of fast but all of a sudden running back tandem. They never coordinated who had a great game together. It was like it was always one or the other and I, I, I think that was more so an allison game, if I remember allison played well yeah yeah it was a who.
Speaker 2:That was like one of those games where if we had in a passing game at all, oh jeez so that was like the worst passing game ever I think kenny threw for six yards.
Speaker 2:Eight yards, yeah, two of like 15 but you know trevor lawrence also threw for like 119 if you remember a post game, I remember them coming over and saying to us we've never had a secondary unit, cover us this well. Yeah, which was a cool compliment. Obviously like right, we lose like big brother, little brother type thing, but like cool compliment. Obviously like right, we lose like big brother, little brother type thing, but like cool compliment. But that eight yard passing game, not kenny's fault no, no, not kenny.
Speaker 1:So professor sean watson, oh that.
Speaker 2:Do you know him and I story? No, I don't like erin this stuff out, but him and I mended our relationship I'll give you a great one. I've never told this, but I'll give you a great one too so maybe I'll tag him in this if he's on social media or coaching anywhere Do you know where he's at. No.
Speaker 1:He's head coach at Wofford.
Speaker 2:Is he still there? Good for him. I'll have to reach out to him. This is not a knock on you, coach. I forget the game, but it was Thursday, perfect Thursday. We're doing red zone for the offense and you know, like I was like scout team, right as the safety, I'm post high safety, okay. I line up five yards deep in the end zone, like I'm supposed to be taught, okay. And Kenny snaps the ball and I don't like move, okay, cause I'm not backing. I'm not backpedaling, which I'm not, I'm taught not to, so I'm just flat foot reading. Kenny just throws the ball, sean Watson screaming at me from across the field.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And, knowing me, I bust my ass for the team and so he's coming down my throat. Normally I'm not a talk back guy, but I was like this is literally what I'd be taught as a starter you sit and read, you don't backpedal. Where am I backped? I was like this is literally what I'd be taught as a starter. Right, you sit and read. Right, you don't backpedal. Where am I backpedaling to Out of the end zone? And I didn't say that was much calmer.
Speaker 2:And then he goes listen to me, motherfucker. And I'm like a big respect guy and I snap and I'm like whoa, I'm like don't you ever talk to me that way. And I'm not advocating for players to do this, guys, but like I'm a senior, at this point, like you know, I have nothing to really lose than playing special teams, which I didn't think was going to happen. But I wasn't thinking about it in the moment and I was just like don't ever talk to me like that. I was like nobody works harder for this team than me. I'm like. I'm like no, I'm like get out of here. I'm like e eric, I'm like get in, I'm out. You know, kenny comes over to me after. He's like what's going?
Speaker 2:on like what happened and I'm like I'm like this motherfucker's telling me, I'm like this is how I'm coached. And he's like no, you're good, kenny goes and talks. And like he was really not like after like apologetic, like like mended the relationship, but like I'll never forget that because I was the only time I ever got into it with a coach Pretty much my whole career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sean, I mean he, he would outburst and let you know about it. Oh yeah, he, I wasn't the biggest Sean Watson guy. He uh, in 20 teen. You know, I don't want to say it was the lowest point of my life because I, honestly, I'm the type of guy where I'm just I'm even keeled. It's like the Bob Janko never too high, never too low. But you know the quote unquote lowest moment of your life, this would have probably been me in 2017. And once again, I was whatever, but I was out of football. I was like all right time to pack up and go. I screwed of football. I was like all right time to pack up and go. I screwed this thing up. Time to roll.
Speaker 1:2017 comes. Uh, just get hired to pit. I'm like all right, here we go. This is it said something to it? Like you know, when I was at toledo, we would talk to the media members about recruiting like that's what we, that's what you did, is what most programs do. Some schools give media members their whole damn recruiting list 40 times the whole shebang. You know it helps get them the recruiting star bumps and all this stuff. You know it could be a nice relationship, pat Narduzzi is not that way. Pat Narduzzi is don't you freaking dare tell a recruiting service this? There's a Western PA kid who went to West Virginia. We had offered him the talk. Around town was West Virginia beat pit for this Whipio kid. So you know, I stuck my nose where it shouldn't have been. Hey, that's wrong. Here's what actually happened. They report that story. Well, now Nardoo's like, okay, well, who's the leak here? And I'm like, oh boy, oh boy.
Speaker 1:So 2017, I wasn't allowed to practice, wasn't allowed in staff meeting, I wasn't allowed in any meetings. I mean, I was exiled. My only saving grace was I was in school because I was a graduate assistant. So I was like, well, they gotta keep me until the end of the semester.
Speaker 1:But I can remember being on the phone with Coach Narduzzi twice I'm like month two or three on the job and I remember thinking I was like, oh my God, I think I'm going to get fired. I was like this is crazy. And he said I'm not going to fire you, but you are just about done here. And I was like, oh boy, this is not good. So you know, most people might curl up and be that way. I went out, bought a brand new Mac computer for Whipio Insider was going to do this. I was like all right, college football had a nice six, you know, four years at Duquesne, one year at Toledo, one year at Pitt. That's that. Whipio Insider, here we go. Was legitimately prepared like buying things for this my entire 2017 year. I was like all right, like done, but put my head down and worked my ass off.
Speaker 1:I was like I got to get back on their good side, but he says we're going to talk midway through the year. He's like, hey, we're going to talk after the year about what you're going to do next semester, which is code for see, just start working my ass off. I'm like, nope, going to turn this thing around, don't care. Work, work, work. Finally they give me I mean they. I had the shittiest jobs you could ever imagine. I had to sit at the hotel lobby while recruits came in at 2 am, drunk on their OVs. You know stuff like that. Like just nobody wants to do these jobs, I don't even. I think they were just doing it so that I would leave. Well, there was a quarterback recruit that came in Drops some weed, drops a lighter, drops this, drops that. He was a transfer quarterback Because, if you remember, after 2017, kenny upsets Miami. He's the guy the whole quarterback room leaves. I didn't know this at the time. Sean had coached with this guy's dad. Well, coach Narduzzi, I'm getting coffee. 6.30 am, mind you, it was just four hours ago. I see this.
Speaker 1:I remember taking a shower that morning, like, do I tell anybody? I don't know. I was like, ah, screw it, I'm out of here. Anyway, I'll at least try to help pit a little bit. Coach Narduzzi is at the coffee. He said, hey, anything interesting happen last night. I thought he knew. I'm like, does he know? Like I thought he was testing me. Like actually, yeah, coach, so-and-so dropped some weed, dropped lighter, you know, came back. Well, came back with this person who was a JUCO guy and he was like, oh, he was his teammate, he was his teammate. I was like no wonder he didn't hang with his host all night. It's like we can't take this guy. And I mean he was going to commit that morning.
Speaker 1:Tell coach Dues Watson comes over, reads me the Miranda rights in front of Dues. Like embarrassingly bad, just MF me. He's talking to Dues. Like this he's pointing I'm like the camera. He's pointing this mother ever. We don't trust him for anything and you're going to go with his word. And he's like, yeah, I believe him, I believe him. Then Sean pulls me into his office. No, triples down.
Speaker 1:I mean I remember leaving the office, sean's office. I'm like, boy, this pit experience has been terrible. Bob Junko calls me into his office. He says you listen here, boy, you work for one man and one man and that's the head coach and he thinks you did a good job. You helped the program today.
Speaker 1:I remember leaving Junk's office, me and Narduzzi passing each other in the hall Once again and I'm like feeling a little bit better, but I'm still like I mean I got crushed that day and me and Deuce were passing each other on. I said Carlo gives me a fist bump because you're back in the staff meetings practice. You're back, baby. And I remember him walking down. I remember Ben Mathers he yells he is Mathers, get Zofko, a chair for the staff meeting. And I was like holy smokes.
Speaker 1:But Sean, after that wasn't it. But I could care, I couldn't care less. You know, I was like all right, I'm back. And that was really the turning point in my pit career Because I mean I was, I was out. People in that building still still say that I've never seen somebody turn the broker, turn his destiny around like Carl. I mean I was out, I was, I was locked up in that recruiting office. I couldn't leave the recruiting office. You probably didn't notice this or you weren't there in 2017. You were there in 2018. I mean nobody sat with me at lunch. I mean I would go to lunch and I had to check. I had to check everybody's meals. So I'm just sitting there by myself three hours at lunch here we go.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, I'm out of here, but you had a choice. But I had a, I doubled and tripled down.
Speaker 1:A lot of people wouldn't, yeah, a lot of people wouldn't.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, but I was, I was out, but one little thing and then director of recruiting leaves five months later I remember that because I was in the recruiting process yeah, and got interviewed.
Speaker 1:So I was going to go from ga to director of recruiting. Actually, I actually took second, but I can't remember LaSalla calling me in the office and saying, like dude, I'm going to be honest, when we were interviewing you, you know, I thought it was just kind of a uh, like hey, we got our guy, but you know, we'll interview Carlo because I think you might get this job Beautiful. But that was the but. I always think, sean Watson, I could have absolutely been done doubled down and it changed my whole life really.
Speaker 2:That's so funny. He's a good guy. I'm not here to poo-poo, for whatever it's worth.
Speaker 1:I do think Sean is a good guy and his mind is very good, yeah, but, and there's a lot of coaches like that mind is very good, yeah, but, and there's a lot of coaches like that. Like, if you bring in a guy, especially it's your guy and the little idiot recruiting guy says he's a piece of shit. Well, that makes you look bad, absolutely so. And I didn't realize that at the time because I mean, mind you, I was a ga that was 22, 23 years old, you know. So, you know, I, I don't know either, but that made that was a black eye on him. So, uh, like, if I, like, if I, if that situation were to happen, you know, as a 31 year old guy, or even when I was like 26, 27 and kind of knew the industry, I would probably go to Sean first and say, hey, here's is what you know. I kind of went over his head, went over everybody's head, even my boss, graham Wilbert. I went through you, went through the quarterback coach, oc, right up to dues, and told him but it was just one of those, I didn't know. But that's not the way to go about things. You're supposed to look out for other coaches I wasn't looking out for Sean there.
Speaker 1:That was bad on me. But once again I was like I don't know, coach, yeah, enjoy your coffee. I think that this guy's going to be a shitbag. And then he got arrested. Felony charges he was a starting quarterback for a group of five program, got into like a police shootout or something and I remember coach printing it out and showing the team. But before the staff meeting he said who remembers this guy? And a couple guys were like, yeah, didn't he come on to visit here? During staff meeting he said carlo, you probably saved us from this kid huh. And I was like, hey, how about that?
Speaker 2:like so there's some good people in the pit building the salad. Junko actually still have the voicemail from six years ago, junko calling me and saying like hey, colin, just want to see if you want to work out at the pro day, work out in front of the pro. And because I ended up calling back obviously yeah I thought at the pro day, but just loved john.
Speaker 1:I still talk to Junk yeah.
Speaker 2:I haven't talked to him, obviously, since I left yeah, he's a, an absolute legend.
Speaker 1:Words can't describe what he's done for that program, you know he's like I said, I was only there for a year.
Speaker 2:Honestly, like I fit, I fit in like culturally really well. I remember a conversation with Shane Roy, who and I we still keep in contact and like we joke a lot and I forget how it even came up, but he was like I forgot, you haven't been here for five years like I didn't even I like it's like hitting me that you've only been here for one yeah um, so like I loved pit, and that's what.
Speaker 1:Like I well, the guys like you that came in like that, it certainly seems like you were there a lot longer than just your grad year. And you're not the only case like that, I would say. Even like Nolan Elusio, who was the offensive tackle after Steph graduated, we brought him in from Michigan for one year, but he was like you, he was totally bought in from the jump and it's like, yeah, that that guy's looked like he could have been there for for years upon years. And Lucas Kroll now he did have an injury. He was a tight end. He had an injury in 2020. So he was there for two years but it was supposed to be another one year thing.
Speaker 2:But Lucas is one where you know he seems like I met him one time, actually in Murraysville he, when, uh, jimmy and Jake were doing their podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, at brushes and beans at their event I came to support. Yeah, that was the only time I met him.
Speaker 1:She looked really good he was awesome, but he was like one of those guys. You know, it's almost like it was like a transplant, like you put them, put them in your body and it just fit perfectly and and there's great. That's where the portal was great, you know. So yeah, there were certainly a lot of guys like you, but it's, it's not super common, but it no, it's there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it happened, but again, I graduated. Yeah, so I was a graduate. Yeah, then that's key.
Speaker 1:So and he was maturity and he was the same way. He was the same way, yeah, and nolan was the same way at florida. Yeah, and nolan was the same way at michigan.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's a maturity thing it's a maturity thing plays a major factor when it comes to that that transfer. So if you understand the game, you understand the business side of it, like you understand culturally, structurally, like how it works. Yeah, like nothing's handed to you. You got to earn things, you got to go in. You got to earn things, you got to go in, you got to compete and do the right things and usually, like when you are a grad transfer, like to be somewhere that long like you do the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you, yeah, you understand of the right stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2:Who was your biggest miss in recruiting? We were like this kid stinks and he ended up being something.
Speaker 1:This is a good question because there were a lot of them. Recruiting is not easy because when you're trying to evaluate high schools, like the level of competition wise, I would say there's more so guys where I thought that they were going to be a dude and weren't, because I was always a guy that you have to find the good in somebody, because the easy way to evaluate oh, colin Colin's not 6'1", he doesn't have long arms. You know who knows what his quickness is? Sure, he has long speed, but is that game speed? How is he super physical?
Speaker 1:It's easy to pinpoint the negatives. You have to pinpoint the positives and make those and I think that's where Coach Narduzzi and the staff is so great the positives of a guy. They just highlight them through the roof. So pinpointing the positives is sometimes harder in recruiting. What can't you do? So much easier to say than what you can do at a high level, easier to say than what you can do at a high level. So I always look for positives.
Speaker 1:But I would say the guy that I didn't think would be super good, I thought Habba, I thought that was a weird situation, like he was an international kid from Italy. I think he played, he played down in Florida and I was one of them that called Charlie Parks and said, hey, there's this kid down here, you need to at least go look at him. I called just saying hey, like kind of due diligence, and Charlie always credited me for that. It was really the recruiting intern, lino Lupinetti, who told me and I just called Charlie. So I got like all this praise. But every time somebody brought it up I always said no, it's actually Lino Lupinetti that found this kid.
Speaker 1:That found this kid, but he was now the GM at UAB, so that kind of tells you how what Delino's like, but but Hobb, I was like I mean this kid, I hope he's this, cause he has length, he has speed, you know, he has toughness, but I don't think there's a slam dunk. He's coming from Italy, that's. That's one I will say. Going back. Servassier Dennis was another one, but I loved Voss, I one. But I loved Voss. I thought his senior year tape if you go back and watch it and this is one where it's a miss on my evaluation part because if you go back and watch a senior year tape, he doesn't do a bunch of linebacker stuff, but he's the quarterback, he's the running back, he could be receiver and he does it all so well and he's so cerebral. But there was a reason Voss wasn't recruited by anybody, you know. But when he came in I remember thinking like fall in love with him, fall in love with the family, like this kid's going to make it. But I remember watching on tape being like maybe. But then you go back and watch him again because but he didn't do you know, he wasn't blitzing off the edge or doing this, doing that, he wasn't doing all this linebacker stuff, he was the damn quarterback. Things like that, I would say, are different and that's why he's still in the NFL, probably going to be an all-pro. I still think he's going to be an all-pro.
Speaker 1:His family was at my wedding. They came to my wedding but that's how close I was with the family. You get to know them on that visit and you're like, yeah, this kid's going to be a dude and I can't believe we're flipping him from Air Force. Kid should have had 30 Power Four offers. Another one was Gavin Bartholomew. Gavin we thought would be an offensive tackle. After his junior year Gavin was committed to Bucknell. Was he really Funny enough? I think it was Bucknell, bucknell or Lafay enough? I think it was Bucknell, bucknell or Lafayette, I think it was I'm like 90%.
Speaker 1:Or no, no, no, no. I'll tell you what it was. He was committed to Buffalo, but his offers were Bucknell and Buffalo. He had two offers. That's exactly what it was. He was committed to Buffalo.
Speaker 2:That's crazy.
Speaker 1:I would have still picked is really good I digress.
Speaker 1:So Gavin after his junior year we thought he could be grow into an offensive tackle. He was the last visit before the COVID shut down. Covid shuts down. Things get crazy. Well, gavin starts a quarterback for his first team. He went to Blue Ridge Mountain High School or something like that. It was like some somewhere way out in Eastern PA that you have to Google. Google, you know like it's crazy. Quarterback for his team, jumping over guys and we're like, okay, yeah, this kid is not an offensive.
Speaker 2:That was a bad eval.
Speaker 1:You know, he probably, if he you know he was 6'4". I see why we thought that. But we're like, no, he's a tight end and probably a damn good one. He just got drafted in the NFL, but that was one where, once again, that's not a miss because we were the only Power Four team to take him. But initially we were like there were some questions, you know, and then as soon as he comes in, he started as a true freshman.
Speaker 1:You know, on that 2021 ACC championship, it was awesome and it's like how the hell that happened. But there were probably more that I was super high on. That didn't pan out and that. Those are the ones where you're like what could have been wrong and I don't might have been the give a shit factor, that was for sure a lot of them, but uh, but I mean, there's some medical issues sometimes that happen, that come up and it's like man, that's a bummer, you know. But the, the misses for me were probably that end where I thought that they were going to be really good and really weren't to keep going back to that, that give a shit factor.
Speaker 2:I was never a guy who believed in the it factor. I'll give this guy his flowers until I met Kenny. Oh yeah, and I remember. Oh yeah, like he didn't have a great statistical year that year.
Speaker 1:Like in 18. Oh no.
Speaker 2:It was terrible statistically, but like in terms of just like a guy who like gets this. It's like you can't ask a question Like you, don't you? Just you feel it, you're around it, you see it, and I remember. So it was after the 20 year, it was before his huge year. I made a bet with my brother-in-law, who so my brother-in-law is a he was a wrestler at Iowa. Like awesome, he's now a coach in Minnesota. But I remember making a bet with him. I was like Kenny's going to be first round quarterback next year. He's like you're out of your mind. And I was like I'm telling you he's gonna be a first-round quarterback. The quarterback class next year is not great. I was like, but kenny gets it. Yeah, kenny's a guy, he goes and does everything, he wins and I win the bet. And I was just like and I to this day I'm like he got a raw, like I don't like making excuses people he got a raw deal, in my opinion, in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1:The.
Speaker 2:Steelers yeah, a raw. He got the worst deal of all time, and so I'm like he's going to figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I have many bets on Cleveland Browns' futures. This year.
Speaker 2:So I'm like Kenny's going to figure it out. I actually have very little concern. Agreed, he's going to go in there. Agreed, like he's going to go in there, he's going to be okay.
Speaker 1:I think not only did they get a raw deal with the Steelers, I think he got a raw deal with Pitt football. We couldn't, I mean for Pat Narduzzi. Pat Narduzzi is the defensive coach. Okay, there was a reason Pitt's not getting four and five star receivers, like, but they are getting the defensive backs and all that. If you're a defensive minded head coach, that's what you're going to do and you want the offense to match the defense.
Speaker 1:Well, there's so many offensive-minded head coaches nowadays. Those guys are recruiting all the skill players because they can relate to it. The same way, deuce relates to the DBs and the linebackers. That's why we're getting unbelievable DBs and linebackers. But on the offense side of the ball, I mean we couldn't get Kenny any help and I don't want to put these players down. But it's like I'm talking nfl draft. You want to win the acc, you need to have draft picks at receivers, draft picks at tight ends, running backs. And in 2021 we finally did, but they were all still they. Jordan was a sophomore, izzy was a sophomore, vince davis was a true junior. So that 2021 year, like we got him young help and he gave him. He won the damn championship, you know. But in 2018, that 2019 team, the year after you left. Think about how low the 2019 team went yeah, if we had, if darren hall.
Speaker 1:I always said the worst part about, uh, the 2015 season that was the year james connor got cancer so kind of threw a wrench into the running back room. True, freshman Darren Hall comes in as the fourth running back in a blowout game, blows the red shirt. That was probably the worst decision. I can't remember who the OC was at the time. I never worked with him. He went to Georgia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember him talking about Bigger dude. Can't remember his name either.
Speaker 1:But that decision blowing Darren Hall's red shirt in 15, ruined the 2019 year. Because we didn't have a running back. We were relying on Vince Davis as a true freshman, and he was small and he was good, but he was small.
Speaker 2:Hard to give that guy 100 or 300 carries in a year If we have Darren Hall that year.
Speaker 1:We're back in the ACC title game. There's no doubt in my mind about it, and that probably changed the trajectory even more so of Pitt football. But it's like you know, if, if Kenny just had a little bit more help earlier in his career, he would have had way more. He ended up rewriting a record book anyway, but my God, those records would have been untouchable. People don't get it. He had that factor where, like when he walked into that room, you knew Kenny Pickett was in there. He wouldn't say anything or do anything. It was just like that aura, you know, like he did.
Speaker 2:It's a real thing.
Speaker 1:It's a very real thing and he absolutely had it. And I'll say this, going back to high school tape Go watch Kenny Pickett's high school highlight tape Because he's not super great. He didn't have a ton of offers coming out. He was committed to Temple for a while, picked up power fours later, senior year what senior year quarterback starts their highlight tape with a defensive hit, coming down at safety laying dudes out. Nobody even plays defense anymore as a quarterback and Kenny was the safety knocking guys out. It was just, he was different. He was different and everybody knows from Township I'm also pretty sure he grew in college, because when I was 100.
Speaker 2:When I was there he's like 6'3".
Speaker 1:Yeah, pretty sure he grew in college, because when I was 100, I, when I was there six, three, yeah, yeah, it was like 100, two hundred percent six one and change for sure, I agree.
Speaker 2:And he was like, because I remember going back and be like did you grow?
Speaker 1:yeah, 100, 100. I thought about that too yeah, that was crazy.
Speaker 2:But yeah, kenny, like I said, like I tell I used to, I used to get so many arguments with steeler fans. I'm like because, like you know, we know people in the book too. Like and so like we have connections like you don't hear, like it's not like the newspaper, right, you have like people who are like, yeah, this like tough, tough shit, it's not going, he's not getting the support, basically.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so I'd have so many arguments with so many steeler fans like you just don't like get it.
Speaker 1:This brown situation could be interesting dude.
Speaker 2:So I don't like the steelers. Like I hate the steelers, I've recanted the steelers, so I'm done with the steelers. I used to love the steelers. I'll say the biggest thing for me, honestly, and it's petty, but so like after the pro day, so many like different teams actually came up to me Like I'm a Packers, vikings, lions Weird that it's that division. But yeah.
Speaker 2:Buffalo, where I ended up getting a mini camp invite. But like the Steelers never came up to me, never said anything, didn't give me the like, the offer, and I was like in my own little secluded world. Yeah, I was like how come the Buffalo billsills are giving me a minicamp invite? But like it'd be cool story, look good, you're going to cut me anyway, right?
Speaker 1:Like At least bring me on. Yeah, just hometown local guy. Yeah, yeah, would have been sweet.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right. So like I had like that was like the tipping point. There's some other like things. We have like some family connections there, but that really made me dis disdain them. Yeah, but the big thing, like that was like my tipping point. I was like, come on, like at least, like just whatever, yeah they, they do some things that are, uh, for sure questionable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure questionable, and I can piss people off, but yeah, this that's a petty thing.
Speaker 2:I acknowledge that's petty people listening like that.
Speaker 1:I hope kenny goes two and oh against and I'll be doing victory laps on Twitter.
Speaker 2:I, I'm, I'm pro Kenny, yeah, but all right, that's it, brother.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate you having me on. This was a grand. This setup is awesome. Yeah, I'm going to take some notes from my own studio. It's a hell of a deal here. I appreciate that. I'm very happy with uh time to time, so very cool.
Speaker 2:Thank you, brother. If anything that you're promoting, obviously Whipple Insider. I want to talk to you a lot about Whipple Insider. We'll have to do a round two.
Speaker 1:The problem with me is, if you get me telling stories, I just don't shut up.
Speaker 2:That's the best. It makes my job easy, but no, so we'll get you on again. Maybe in high school football season we'll get you on again. But if there's anything you're promoting, anything you're working on, take the time to shout yourself out now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know I run the page Whipio Insider. We actually have some very, very big news for the future dropping later this month. I have to keep a lid on it for now, but when will this air you?
Speaker 2:think Probably next week. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So can't say anything yet. Dang it. Um, have some very important news for the future there. But pretty much we do a podcast on whip you insider. It's I think it's the best high school podcast on the east coast and I listen to a bunch of them and you know obviously I'm biased, but we put serious production value into it. Uh, we do it professionally. We have a uh, a tv show as well.
Speaker 1:The only person, person that can do highlights of games Once again, I'll keep that to myself on how I have access to do highlights of games the 11 best games in Western Pennsylvania every single week on Sundays at 20 to the point at 11 o'clock, and also on my Twitter page on that Sunday. But it's almost it's a little mini version of the Fedco zone. You know Fedco went around with the helicopter and so not on that level yet Hoping to get there, hoping to get there, something like that. But to find high school football highlights of games not easy to do. So we can do that on Whip your Insider. So if that's what you're into, we can do it and we have a good time. We have a nice following it's like one of those cult-like followings.
Speaker 2:You know people that love high school football. Those are my people, those are my people.
Speaker 1:So western pa famous recruiting savant carlos sofka thanks, appreciate you having me on colin talk soon yep listeners, thank you for listening.
Speaker 2:Tune in next week five stars only baby, check us.