The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Formerly The Athletic Fortitude Show.... Colin Jonov’s Athletic Fortitude Show has rebranded to The Playbook with Colin Jonov, evolving from a sports-centric podcast to a universal guide for mastering life’s challenges. While retaining its foundation in mindset and performance excellence, the show now expands its scope to empower everyone—athletes, entrepreneurs, professionals, and beyond—to live life to its fullest potential
The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Dave Kline- How To Become an Unstoppable Leader
Dave Kline Founder @ MGMT | CEO Coach | Advisor | Speaker | and I pull apart modern recruiting and leadership through the lens of college sports and business, weighing culture-building against transfer-portal efficiency and mapping a practical playbook for feedback, alignment, and sustainable performance. The throughline: define “good,” face reality, pick the right risks, and turn identity labels into coachable behaviors.
• team belonging declining, incentives pushing quick wins
• transfer portal vs development path and roster math
• buy vs build talent and what Project Oxygen missed
• leadership as choice, not fixed traits, introverts included
• feedback harvested on purpose, behavior not identity
• neutralize weaknesses, maximize strengths, celebrate wins
• root cause diagnosis over buzzwords and myths
• expectation alignment to avoid existential risks
• styles that win through alignment, not one-size-fits-all
• magnetic non-negotiables and precise cultural mantras
• coaches as CEOs managing boosters, NIL, media
• practical OS for teams: set expectations, coach, iterate
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Yeah. To to the point about your daughter though, like the in like the athletic sphere, like whether it's college, high school, whatever, that feeling of being a part of a team is getting lost. Every athlete I speak with, to some degree, are are losing that sense of belonging or that sense of camaraderie. And the teams that do have it seem to excel really well. So it's as if those principles still matter and still carry true. It's just not enough people are actively seeking it out, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. We um, since we sort of share the Bucknell background, we were at a soccer camp. And honestly, I think Kelly was one of the first coaches we've heard at any of these camps actually take at the division one level. I think D3 really still thrives in this way. But like that she'd only had, I think it was like two transfers out and one transfer in since she's been at Bucknell. And she's like, I try to take a lot of care in who I bring in because I feel like if I get it wrong, that's on me, not them. Uh, because I want them to be here for four years. And I was like, that's still pretty rare. You know, like they're playing, they're playing at a pretty high level. I think she rightly attributes some of the success they're having pretty consistently on top of the page, or like to the fact that she's built a culture that's like that. But it's increasingly rare. If you actually look at the ins and outs of a program, you know, a lot of them are staffing them through the portal and things like that.
SPEAKER_02:And that's where I wish I was in conversations more when it comes specifically to recruiting, understanding what is the message is being portrayed from coaches, like hearing that is awesome. Like I can't understand why all programs still aren't looking to build that way. And I'm not saying, like, particularly like football-wise, like obviously football, basketball, maybe a little bit different dynamics, but to have the mindset we're going to build and develop within, I don't understand why that's not promoted.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it's funny because I think this ties to sort of what I do for a living too, which is it's increasingly become a business. And then recruiting is really hard in the first place. And so every recruit is a risk-adjusted bet. And so when you're the traditional recruiting, at least for soccer, right, is you're starting to talk to these girls at the end of their sophomore year. And so they're 16 years old, and you're hoping, you're projecting to like what they're going to do for you junior and senior year, which is you know, four, five, six years out. So many things between here and there. Like they get homesick, they get hurt, they get da-da-da-da-da. You have a second opportunity for, you know, a top recruit to a power for program who just doesn't click with the coach, can't get off the bench, whatever else. And the risk adjustment's way different. They're they're four years bigger, they're four years stronger. They've done two years at a division one lifting and nutrition program. They've flown around the country doing this, and all of a sudden you're a mid-major, and those are the two options sitting in front of you. And you're like, on a risk-adjusted basis, I should bring that junior in every time. Stinks for my daughter. But at the end of the day, like they're a manager of a team that has to perform. And I think there was something like 60 of the 300 or so Division I women's soccer coaches were new last year. So you're like, okay, if I don't perform, like 20, 15 to 20% turned over last year. So you have to perform. And so you sort of see how the dynamics and the incentives are all going to keep pointing in this direction, I think.
SPEAKER_02:I think my rebuttal, in a way, is it's a longer path to go the development route. Isn't it a more sustainable route, though, than each year having to go in and cherry pick off of each team's? I love the risk-adjusted, like the risk-adjusted outlook. But I feel like over the long haul, still doesn't development play out when you can develop those relationships and know, hey, you come in, you can trust us, we care about you more than just the athlete. We're going to develop you as an athlete, as a person, and you're going to get what you seek at least nine times out of 10, right? And if you come here, this is what you can reasonably expect to get. Versus if you're another person coming in, the outcome projection may vary a little bit more because you don't know exactly if you're going to come in and mesh and click. And you don't know exactly what to expect each year.
SPEAKER_01:It'd be good to see the data when it plays out in the end. There was a um there was a study that Google did a while ago. I think it was called Project Oxygen. I don't know if you've heard about this. I have not. So they were looking at like what makes up great leaders, what makes up great teams? And could they identify all the factors so they could assemble more high-performing teams in a more reliable way? Right. And then at their scale, that would be huge, right? If you could do that, if you could manufacture high-performing teams, like how awesome would that be? And so they did come up with factors that make leaders stand out. But when you really got down to the individuals and the talent on the team, again, on sort of an investment-adjusted basis, is it best to hire someone who can do the job or to grow them within to get them there? Most roles, it was better to go buy than build. And that is from an organization that was investing hundreds of millions of dollars into developing. And the conclusion wasn't, and therefore don't do any development, always go recruit. But it was more people, it's it's just a lot of different hops that you have to get through versus if you have someone where well, at least the character lines up and the skills line up and the they have experience having done something in a similar context for you. I've taken down a bunch of the risk. And the development I have left is like make them mesh or not mesh. You know? And then I and then I think those dynamics get funny, like almost get amplified because they get so focused on small teams, right? These soccer teams are now constrained rosters of 28. You know, they maybe graduate five, six, seven seniors. So you're like, I only it's it's seven kids. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:So, like, how are you dealing with that then through this process, understanding that your performance as a young athlete now, furthermore, needs to increase.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, well, I think what it comes down to, like this what we're seeing. So I can speak both to like our experience, but also sort of peers, is well, what are you optimizing for? It becomes the first thing. So I there are definitely kids on our team who are outrageously good athletes and who have a stated goal of playing professionally or getting a look for the national team. And I think under that circumstance, to your point, you've got to go maximize performance, you got to have good enough grades so that doesn't prevent you from getting into those schools. You've got to sort of you probably will move around clubs to get to the the clubs that are playing the tougher teams and in the bigger tournaments, et cetera. And then I think you have other ones. I'd say, our our daughter's probably more in this, but like super solid player who is playing the 40-year game, not the four-year game. She's like, look, I don't want to be a professional soccer player. I don't see that being my future. Um and so, like, but I want to still be part of a team. I still want that four-year experience. I like, I can't imagine not being on a team and being in school. And so, you know, for us, that becomes yes. Yes, you still have to drive your performance as high as you possibly can. Then I think it becomes you have to be realistic about, well, where can you thread the needle? And then in what form does that come in? You know, so in the, you know, maybe in an maybe in her aspiration, it's like, well, could I sneak into an Ivy League school? So not power four, but could I sneak into an Ivy League school, get an amazing education and play with a still rock solid team, right? Like the Princetons, the Browns, and others will like go to the tournament and play, kind of like Bucknells in basketball, right? We'll go to the tournament, we might not win too many games. Or do you sort of end up at a Bucknell where you're like, I get a good education, I come out as like one of the top 20 uh like median earning school in, you know, in five years, and I get to play division one soccer. But again, it's not powerful. Or is it D3? Or is it like I go to an outrageously good academic institution where I could never have played soccer, I go to Duke and try to sneak myself onto the club team. You know, and I think for her, it's almost like those combinations are all on a list. And which one, because you sort of have to catch, you got to kind of catch a bit of luck on all of them, right? Either the coach that falls in love with you at a school you want to be at, and so maybe that's your sort of side door in, or um have outrageously good academics and other things and get into one of those schools and then make a club team where there's no guarantees. And it's sort of maintaining that list and exposing her to those things and helping and helping her sort of perform on the field is best, I think the best we can do. And I don't know, she probably has a better attitude about it than we do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's just uh this is this is staring me in the face in like 15, you know, 10, 15 years. So assuming my kids, yeah. Assuming my kids continue to to play sports, which is highly encouraged, not mandatory in the household, but you know, it's look at it, you know, from the leadership side too. And you know, obviously that being being your your expertise. When you look at leadership of institutions, can anyone be a leader? Are there certain intangibles that you need to have in order to be a successful leader?
SPEAKER_01:I think anyone can be, but you have to really like you have to want to be. You know what I mean? You have to sort of look into the void and say, I want to step into it. Um, but the reason I say that I think anybody can do it is there's a lot of flavors. Do you know what I mean? If you and you and you not only are there are there flavors, you see it evolving over time, right? I would say the if you if you gave me the caricature of a typical leader, like what types of things would you describe?
SPEAKER_02:I would say charismatic, I would say caring, I would say intelligent, I would say high ability to relate, well spoken, hardworking, a lot of those. I could keep going, to be honest. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And a lot of times people like you know, you sort of push on, like, well, what do you mean by charismatic? They'd be like, they're well spoken, they're outgoing, et cetera. And I'm like, oh, it's so interesting because the majority of the CEOs of the Fangs right now are self-identified introverts. And so you're like, oh, that's interesting. How did that, how could that be that they've become these charismatic leaders of these trillion-dollar companies? And you're like, well, because traits are not fates, right? You can flex away from your preference. And so that's what I mean by that. You kind of have to want it, right? You have to have that mission or have that goal or have that thing that drives you to move away from your some of your preferences into those places, but you can. I think a lot of people tell themselves a story that they can't, that those traits are fixed. You know, that's the fixed mindset versus the gross mind growth mindset. And then therefore it becomes self-fulfilling, right? You could say, like, well, I can't be a leader. I'm not outgoing. And you're like, no, you're you're choosing to not be outgoing. You're choosing not to step into that void or be courageous or take the risk. And again, that we could also define like leadership at what level? Right. Because in some cases, you might need to have an Elon level IQ if if the mission we're trying to pursue is putting spaceships on Mars. You know what I mean? But what if you're what if the mission you have is just to like make your town safer or make your town more enjoyable to be in? Could you not lead a set of people to have an event that brings the community together? Like, does that take rocket ship level IQ? Like, no, it takes connection and commitment and the capacity to go do it and the desire, the courage. I don't know. I'm in the I'm in the world that says you can you can step into a leadership void if you want to.
SPEAKER_02:How do you begin to coach people that do have the desire that may be self-proclaimed introverts? How do you begin to coach and push them into the spaces they need to go in order to be the best leader?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's usually two pieces. The first one, like my if you were asking me, I would say, well, why? Like, why are we not doing that? Like let's figure out like what is the diagnosis? Is it some sort of fear? Is it some sort of limiting mindset? Is it some sort of capability you don't have? Because each of those things might dictate a different path. But then from that, well, what what's the small step we can take? Like what is the minimum viable thing you could do to go in that direction or to challenge that mindset? How do we start to rewrite that narrative? How do we start to build in that direction?
SPEAKER_02:I think about it in obviously I come from a sports background. In I think about coaches and I think about guys who are incredibly talented from a X's and O's perspective, know the game in and out, but have no ability or at least no perceived ability to relate to their players. They have no ability to connect with them on a human level. They have no ability to motivate, they have no ability to bring people together. And it's, I think about is that an incapability or is that a lack of desire? And if it is an incapability, how can that person have success in the team that they're building?
SPEAKER_01:Right. That's where you and I would disagree on the premise. I'm like, when you when you start to say it, I'm like, really? They're a human being and they have no ability to relate. They have like they couldn't possibly connect with another human. And I'm like, of course they can. There's no way you have to be the head coach of something of any sort of meaning if you couldn't literally connect with the person who had to hire you, or the community that put you in that spot, or the players who can quit you and don't. So there's some ability there. Now you could say they're not effective, or they're getting the wrong people in the room to motivate. Like there's lots of other diagnoses, but I'm like, I don't think it's an incapability. I think we tell ourselves these stories. Like, I um there was this moment in time when I was at Bridgewater. We did a re-org, and this guy got swept swept underneath me, and he was a brand new manager. And we start meeting, and he's he's telling me about how every person on his team is kind of incapable. Like they're not good, they don't connect with him, they don't see it his way. And then you can sort of see where it's going. I could I can see where it was going pretty early. By the time we exhaust this first time's manager, we've gone through every person on his team, he's like, I just want to see what the problem is. And I was like, Oh, there's only one problem. And he was like, Really? And I was like, Yeah, it's obvious. You don't see it? And he was like, No. And I'm like, you're you're an app. Like every single person you're describing, like when you talk to them and they say something you don't like, you roll your eyes at them. When when you get bored, uh like in meeting with them, I watch you put your head on the table. Who would want, like, who do you expect to like want to follow you anywhere? Do you know what I mean? Like, what, like, would you want to follow you? And then he sort of was like, hmm. And he's like, and this is sort of the point of the story. He says, Yeah, but I can't change because that's just who I am. And I was like, Yeah, it's not. It's just so you've chosen to be until right this minute. And the reason I could say that to him with such conviction is because if you had rewound the tape 10 years, my coach sat across from me and told me I was the asshole. I was the one rolling my eyes. I was the one with like the bad body language. I was the one who thought he was smarter than everybody, and that wasn't going to get me where I wanted to get to. And so I don't think it was a capability. It's like I didn't, I either you don't see it, you know, and then once you see the gap, then the question becomes, do you want to close the gap? Because me might not want to, right? That coach might have said, like, my system is my system. I don't want to close that gap. That just means he has the wrong people in the system if all the players don't want to operate that way. And then if you have, if you see it and you want to close it, then it becomes a question of ability. And I do, and I'm with you, there's some small subset of I deeply want it, I'm super committed, I'm doing everything I can. I still can't cross that hurdle. Like I still can't hit the four-minute mile. Um, but I think when it comes to leading, that's more that's pretty much the exception, not the rule. You might not be able to lead the thing you want to lead, but I believe you can lead.
SPEAKER_02:It's funny, there are connections between like even animated movies, little kid books, and like real life lessons. So there's this, I just have to go here because my my daughter's obsessed with this book called The Pout Pout Fish. And the premise of it is the pout fout, pal pout fish is really grumpy all the time. And he just keeps saying it's just the way I am. Then at the end of the book, a fish kisses him and all of a sudden he's the happiest fish ever. And now he spreads joy everywhere. And it's just so funny. I I just relate that it's just the way I am. I do view that as a very much a loser's mindset. It is a mindset where you are telling yourself a story, a self-fulfilling prophecy that you're gonna ultimately fulfill because you just continue to lean into that aspect. Oh, I can't do this. Is it sometimes just saying straight in the face, like, hey, you are being an asshole, or hey, you can change? Or like, what is the best way to get someone to realize like you're not just the way you are, you're choosing to be that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:When we talk about feedback with people, we sort of I sort of go along this journey. So, like the absolute best person that could give anybody feedback is for them to give it to themselves. And so, one of the first things, you know, because people really struggle to give feedback, like, oh, it's so hard. I don't want to be mean, all these other things. Maybe you hear less in sports, but you certainly hear it inside of business. Um, I'm like, well, then don't give feedback. Like, ask them the question first. Ask them like, how do you think it went? What did you think of the game? How, you know, like give me the highs and lows. And what you'll find is like 80% of the time, they're a bigger critic than you are. And so it's great. You're like, I didn't even have to be the one to lob in the criticism. They're being self-critical. Now we can talk about how can I help you? Like, what do we do about that? You know, I'm not the critic, I'm the coach. Now, that doesn't always work because they might answer your question by being like, wasn't that amazing? Could I have been any better? You know, like, I can you go pick up the mic I dropped when I got off? And you're like, hmm, you know, but again, you can still have that conversation, like, oh, tell me more. Like, what went into that? Why did you think it went so well? You might want to start to hint, like, oh, you know what? I sort of experienced it slightly differently over here, but you could do that. And then there is some points where I don't know, like it's like trying to explain red to someone who's colorblind. You're like, they just like literally can't see it. And I've I it's funny, I was on the receiving end of this one time and I like remember viscerally, where I was working with not one manager, but two. So I had this co-manager structure like early on in Bridgewater, you know, my ego was definitely involved because they were, I think, six or seven years junior to me. I had managed way more people for way longer. They were both brand new managers and try to do it together. And so it was like a ridiculous structure. And I remember being in a room and they're sort of like having this ridiculous conversation about not what I thought was like effectively not work. I'm like, I don't know what we're talking about. This is like theoretical nonsense. And they turn to me and they're both dead serious, and they're like, you're just not conceptual enough to see it. And there's like two parts to that. One of which is it might be true. That could be, right? I don't know. At the time, I wasn't gonna hear that it was true. I was like, this is you guys are a bunch of jackasses. But that could be true. But then I go to the place of like, if you're if you're being a good coach, if you're gonna be a good leader, can the person sitting across from you do anything with that? Like, what would somebody do with your not conceptual enough? And so one of the practices that I try to teach the leaders we work with is to like go to the practical then. You can't just like you're talking about like an ability. Like the my my the timing for me to change an ability is years. Where is that ability showing up in a behavior? Like, can you show me, like, translate that for me? Okay, I'm not conceptual enough. Therefore, what? Therefore, it's taking us too long to finish this strategy document. Therefore, I'm not following the con like, I'm not following the conversations correctly. Therefore, and with on the backside of therefore, I now have something to be like, oh, okay, so you're saying if we can do this thing faster, I can do this thing higher, etc. Well, that becomes transactable for me. I could go change that behavior. I can't change the ability, but I can change how it shows up, how it manifests. And in reality, when we're judging people in sports or in business, we're not judging them as people, we're judging them as like performers in the context that we have to offer. And so that would be my push to people giving feedback and like it's not landing. I'm like, you're probably we we did this in our program yesterday. Someone was like, I have I have a challenge with someone who's not good at multitasking. You know what I mean? And I'm like, my first response was well, you should teach them how to be a mom. Because only moms seem to know how to multitask, like, and I'm a dad and I have that nothing for you. Like, I'm just focusing on this and this alone, and there's nothing else. But I'm like, where does that show up? And it wasn't that he like, he's like, on specific types of transactions, he drops them. And I'm like, okay. So imagine if the conversation is instead of I need you to be a better multitasker, it is on these urgent legal documents that are critical to our business, I need you to come up with a way to not lose track of them and deliver them by the timeline. Agreed? Agreed. And she was like, Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And I'm like, and if that was, would you still have the same multitasking feedback if he did that thing? And she's like, no, that's the main place it shows up. And I'm like, he can change that. This conversation was going to be a mess. Right. Because you're talking about the identity, you're guessing at what the diagnosis is when really you just needed this small behavior to change.
SPEAKER_02:What is it about human nature that a lot that at least has us go to the conceptual and not the behavior? And how do we change the way that we think so we can go to the behavior?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I have a faster answer on the first one than the second one. Like, I think we're, I think our brains, like we're pattern matchers, we're dot connectors. And so we like, we like to sort of see the pieces and connect them all up. Um, we we teach a different part of our program. We're talking about diagnosing the root cause. And it's a bit of the same thing where a lot of times people roll in and we're like, well, what problem are we solving? And it's very synthetic. My favorite one that comes up almost all the time is like, my team is dysfunctional. And I'm like, okay, I can't answer the question with, and therefore, like, go be functional. And I'm like, you know, so you, so what do you do? You're like, well, why are they dysfunctional? Where does that show up? How does it manifest itself? What are the negative outcomes? You sort of go through all of that. I think it's just natural for us. Like we just try to pattern match and connect things, and we, because we're trying to categorize and catalog so much information that it's easier for us to bucket it than it is to leave it in the details. So the the best thing that I know is sort of recognizing that limitation of this processor and then creating those systems to convert your intuition into intention and then pull them back apart. So like catch yourself when you're like, it's multitasking, or oh, it's conceptual, or oh, we're dysfunctional. It's like when I say something like that, I should say, why? And I just keep saying, like, well, why is that? Well, why is that thing? And then you keep going down. And as soon as you can then answer the question of like, who should do what differently? The sales guy should submit his legal documents on time for urgent requests. The team should collaborate better on cross-functional projects to meet the timeline. That's like, I know who should do what differently. That that's my answer. I could stop asking why then, because now I have something to go put into play, right? I got a new play to go run on the field and we can see if we score this time. Because we're only talking about it because we lost. Let's get to the place where we think we've got a good hypothesis about the next play. Let's go run the play and try to win. And if we win, we're done talking about it. And if we lose, we have new data to come up with even a better play. Um, and that's sort of continuous improvement. So the best that I know is sort of catching it in yourself and then going through that discipline of like root cause diagnosis and evolution and like test and iterate. But what do you do?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I think that's why I asked the question, right? So uh, you know, for for myself, right? Yeah, again, I have conversations with, you know, people who are in sports organizations and they'll give those, it's dysfunctional, like you have no idea how frustrating it is. Like, yeah, things are those answers and lots of locker room. Yes, exactly. And then the question becomes harder to solve, like you said, like, okay, well, what needs changed and how do we impact it? Is it a behavioral thing that you know I keep coming back to? Is it a team chemistry thing? Do they not like each other? Who in particular doesn't like each other? Is it a disconnect between the communication and staff and players? And it finding the root cause is not an easy thing for any leader. And I think part of that problem is I don't think employees or players are self-aware enough to know when they're part of the problem. And there's all these different moving pieces, and that's why I love leadership, because I think it is more important now than ever with all the different things that are floating around. Are there foundational principles that are non-negotiable that every leader in any domain needs to have in order to create some type of success?
SPEAKER_01:I'm just pausing because I want to give you a like a good answer. Take your time, my friend. Because my my initial reaction was I don't think so. I think it depends in that that's slightly informed by my background. So I've been at a big four consulting firm, I've been at an Ivy League university, I've been at a Fortune 500 financial services company, I've been at a hedge fund, I've had my own business. And now in that own business, I've worked with 1200 plus companies. The formula, if success is I have a viable business. Do you know what I mean? I wouldn't be working with anyone if they didn't have a viable business because they wouldn't be in business. So I have a viable business. There is no single formula. I have seen people who are like total jerks. I have seen people who are saints. I have seen organizations that want to win on the lowest possible margin and they're efficiency obsessed. I've seen ones who want to win on high design. And, you know, they are premium luxury brands. And you can see it in sports, right? There are teams that are, they're gonna play different systems. They're going to be sort of the competition earlier. They're they're gonna bring in mercenaries instead of missionaries. And there's other ones who are gonna be culture focused. I do think inside of all that, I think there is like a bit of an 80-20 that they're all doing, which I think maybe is less about like a foundational characteristic versus like a a couple steps they take. I think in all those things I just described, those people, those leaders, at least the ones who succeed, I think they have a picture of what good looks like. Like they know what they're trying to build. And so if they're Steve Jobs, he knows what he's trying to build. If they're a three-person accountant firm in a small town in the Midwest, you could still be a successful leader, but they they know what they're trying to build. They're not trying to build the Apple of accounting firms. They're trying to like have a lifestyle business and like maybe provide employment to a couple of people in their town and serve their neighbors, you know, or maybe they're in a in a you know, a faith-based organization, or maybe you're a sports team, but that leader has a point of view. Like, this is where we're trying to get. This is the mission we're chasing. This is how I think we put the pieces together. Um, and it might not be perfect, but it's like a target. And then I think the second thing they tend to do with the high-performing ones is they tend to have a very clear-eyed view of where they are. Like, okay, if that's where we're going, this is where we are. Like this is reality. My reality is I'm a new accountant in that small town and I have no business. Okay, what's the first thing I have to do to get to that sustainable three-person business? I got to find someone to pay me from accountant services. You know, I've got to then get so many of those clients that I got to hire that first person, you know, and that sort of staring very clear-eyed at reality. And I think you probably saw this with sports. We see this with almost every high-performing team. The idea of regular feedback, of game film, of being able to say like what is working and what is not working in pursuit of that vision, that what excellent looks like, whatever you want to call it, becomes the fuel to go from here to there. And so I suspect the closest thing I would have to foundational principles is that like hold a picture of what good looks like, be really willing to stare at reality, be willing to just like test and iterate and solve problems to go from here to there.
SPEAKER_02:With all the different sectors and types of companies that you have worked with, what skill sets or what processes do you use to be able to help so many different domains ultimately become better leaders and more successful in the companies or whatever that they're building?
SPEAKER_01:It's funny. When we first built our program, it was it was effectively open, it's it's open for enrollment. Like you can just enroll in our programs. We basically tell you you should be a leader of at least, you know, three to 10 years, but non-for-profit, big company, small company, tech, engineering, sales, marketing is fine. And at first we were a little bit, we should probably niche down. Like this is going to be too confusing for everybody. We had a lot of questions for people. We're like, what do I have in common with that person? We've now done it over 30 times. And what's funny is by the third of eight modules, everybody realizes they all have the same problem, which is just people. Like every because again, if the problem you were solving was best solved by a single human doing something all by themselves, that's how it would get solved. But instead, the problem you're solving requires bringing multiple humans together. That's why we're in a management program. That's why we're in a leadership program. I can't win the basketball game with just one person on the court. I'm gonna need five, preferably 10, you know, so we have some flexibility. And it ends up being like 80-20 foundational, right? So if you go back to like where we were just starting of, okay, well, what are we building here and where are we and what are the problems in between? And then when you get down to the individual, right, you're talking about, okay, I'm setting expectations with you, expectations of what you need to produce and deliver, expectations of playing time, expectations of the role you're gonna play on the team, expectations of how the trajectory could happen. But there's expectation management. Then there's then there's you got to go perform, right? So there's training and there's development, and there's coaching and there's feedback and that whole cycle. Um, and so you can you can go down those sets of capabilities, and they're true of sports, they're true of big businesses and small businesses. How much apparatus you want to build around them probably depends on the size and scale, right? If it's three people in a room, you can turn around and handle most of it verbally. If it's 300,000 people spread across the globe, you probably have an entire office devoted to just simply like one corner of it. Then once you have the individual side sorted out, now you're like, how do I put them together? What's my design? What's the system I'm playing? Where are my positions on the field? Does everybody know how their position interrelates to the people adjacent to them? Do they know how we handle exceptions when things move around? Um, you know, what is critical, what's non-critical, what's important, what's unimportant, what are the cultural values in the locker room or in the in the office? And you sort of end up with that, right? I've got this goal and I'm just creating this machine. And the machine is just people, individuals in a culture following a process, using technology to get an outcome. And when the outcome's good, we keep doing more of it. When the outcome's off, we adjust one of those four things. And so that that that's what it comes down to. It's like we teach people sort of five or six foundational skills on individuals and five or six foundational skills on putting those individuals into a team. And I think they walk away with the 80 20 of what it takes.
SPEAKER_02:In these high performing teams, is it more of Doing things right or avoiding doing things wrong.
SPEAKER_01:It is more of doing things right. I'm sorry, there's like a caveat to it. It's like doing things right without the fear of doing most things wrong, aka be willing to go fast and make mistakes, like prioritize cycle time over perfection so that you can get real data, you can adjust. But don't take any risks that are existential. Like don't and so that's why I'm like, I think it's actually risk seeking. But the key part is picking the right risk to seek. And so do you know what I mean? Like you want and so what does that mean? Well, the right the right risks to seek are the ones that I'm uniquely suited to win more often than I'm uniquely suited to lose. And it's not one that can wipe me out. If you wipe out, you're out of the game, and then the whole thing's over. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Hey. I would like, because you see these things, right? I mean, that's the beautiful thing of Twitter, right? Or X, I guess it's called now, is you see, hey, the the best businesses or the best people just avoid getting wiped out. And other people are like, no, like you have to act with speed, you have to do everything right, you have to be iterating constantly. And I I believe the world is very gray. It's not as black and white as many of us make it seem, but finding the different truths when you're building a company, when you're building a locker room or an organization, understanding where do I spend most of my time? What am I preaching? Where am I putting most of my energy into? Is it, hey, I don't want to get wiped out if it's sports in the transfer portal, or I don't want to make a decision that makes us go bankrupt as a company. Like, where is time best spent focusing on what to do?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I go back to that. Yeah, I feel like I've got a handful of frameworks I keep anchoring back to just because they're very helpful to me. If I go back to I'm painting a picture of what excellence looks like, of what success is, and then I'm staring at right here, right now. Part of that clear-eyed view of right here, right now is what if we stay in the sports frame, you know, like do I know how many games I have to win in year one as being a coach to know that I get the opportunity to have year two? Like, can I go 0-20 and we're good? Or does it have to be five and 15 because I'm rebuilding? Or does it have to be 10 and or did I inherit a team that like went deep last year and the expectation is basically to replicate or better? Those are the those are the exact same, uh one level up, it's the exact same starting point. I am I'm a new coach on a team. And I go into so, but those, but depending on the context and the circumstance, that is an existential risk. If you, if the expectation is going 20 and oh and you go 10 and 10, and you're trying to build this enduring Nick Saban-like Alabama program, or you're, you know, pick your coach who lasts 25 years, you you lost in year one because you didn't understand the existential risk. And so, but it's interesting because that connects to expectations, right? Like, where can the existential risk come from? So that's like you being in aligned on expectations with the administration or with the boosters or with the stakeholders, et cetera. And then you making sure you sort of don't fumble into that. And then with all, and so the can I do all the things I can to minimize those existential risks? And then with everything else, that's sort of you as the visionary of saying, how do I put these pieces together to go from where I am to where I need to go in the logical order? And again, that won't be one size fits all. You have a totally stacked team of talent. Maybe what you just need to be doing is like drawing up the right plays and practicing. You have a totally decimated, empty team. The first thing you might need to do is go recruit and fill it. Your team is like pointed in the wrong direction and you just inherited them. The first thing you might do is like redefine this point of excellence and see who wants to stay on the bus for that and who wants off and sort of work that through. And so for me, I'm like, let me make sure I'm clear-eyed in what could wipe me out. And then once I've taken care of that, now that's that's why they pay the, that's why they pay us the big bucks.
SPEAKER_02:What is it about receiving feedback that makes us so guarded or defensive? And do you have a particular way that you advise receiving feedback so you can collect data, act fast, iterate?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I had some reps. So I also played sports growing up. So I played soccer, I wrote, et cetera. But uh when I went to Bridgewater, the last 10 years of sort of my corporate career, we believed in like radical truth and radical transparency and saying what you feel, and even to the point that we ended up putting it in a tool. That tool, the expectation was like I'd be giving you feedback, you'd be giving me feedback. And it created, speaking of Twitter, it created a Twitter feed of my feedback that was publicly available to the whole company. So I when I left there, I think I had north of 11, we called him dots. I had a north of 11,000 dots of feedback. So someone had taken the time to be like, Dave is an idiot for the following reason and like classified it and hit submit. Or maybe on the rare day, Dave really shined and we're gonna give him a five out of 10. But um, so look, I think the in terms of receiving feedback, um, it sort of starts a little bit like we were earlier, which is like you kind of you kind of have to want it. Like you have to say, like, I'm trying to go somewhere. The chances I'm perfectly suited and perfectly executing on that path is effectively zero. Like there's almost no chance. Or you're doing something so uninteresting and so routine back to the whole risk thing. Like you're taking zero risk, and so there's no value in it, anyways. And so, like, okay, I'm gonna do ambition is the opposite of risk. So I'm gonna take a little bit of risk. I'm gonna have some ambition. I'm gonna go do something that hasn't been done by me or by others. And so I have to know that on that journey, I'm not gonna be perfect. Okay. I have two choices. I can let the world fire at me whatever they want to fire at me. And like, people will tell you stuff. You're not picking the source, you're not giving them any guidance, they'll tell you good or bad. Sometimes it's helpful, like, but usually it's random. It's you and often it's about them, not you. It's like their experiences, their biases, their mindsets is what you're hearing. And that you're just sort of a way that they reflect almost on themselves. Or instead of waiting for it to organically rain down on you, you can go harvest it. You can say, Well, I'm really trying to go from here to there. I'm trying to close this gap, I'm trying to go on this adventure, I'm trying to do this thing. Who is helpful in the types of things I need to figure out to go from here to there? And then can I share with them, like, hey, I'm trying to, I'm on this journey, I'm trying to get better in this way, I'm trying to get faster, I'm trying to jump higher, I'm trying to improve my shot. I'm doing this work. Here's where I'm headed. Can you do me a favor? If you see me getting it right, can you call that out? And if you see me coming up short, fumbling, falling back into old habits, whatever, can you also call that out? Can you just sort of be my mirror whenever you're around me and see this thing? And now you've enlisted three, four, five people and you've done two things. You've picked your who's going to be giving it to you, right? Is it your coach? Is it a player you trust? Is it your spouse, your wife, your boss, your manager, your peer? And instead of it being random and saying, whatever comes to mind, tell me it, you're saying, I would like feedback on my journey, like on this vector, on this specific thing. The added benefit to now it being focused and targeted so you can make sense of it is also they become more invested in helping you succeed. Like instead of them being passive observers, you've drawn their attention. You've actually been vulnerable by asking for help and you sort of and you end up activating them as effectively partners, as coaches, that they you turn them on to surround you in that way. And especially if that's somebody who you want to see the change in you, right? If that if the coach is the one you want to see you getting better at this, enlisting their help and then showing them you're doing the work and then asking them if they're seeing the improvements, part of it's doing the work, and part of it is actually making sure that you're marketing that the work is being done. Cause they're not paying as much attention as you think they are.
SPEAKER_02:In the like transitioning from athletic world to like business professional world, I would still, I'm still surprised at how many athletes aren't great at taking feedback. And one of I would say the like pivot points in my own life is when I started seeing feedback as a good thing. In the mindset switch is it's not an attack on what you're currently doing. It's information on how to improve what you're currently doing and make it better. And when I was able to switch that, I'm always actively seeking feedback. I want feedback. I think where I struggle is asking for what I'm doing well. I just always immediately go to what do I want to do better. And I I think that sometimes creates a gap between what I'm actually good at and what I know I'm good at. And that piece of, hey, tell me what I'm doing well, call that out. If I'm falling back into old habits, also call that out is really beneficial and helpful because without understanding, hey, it's it's actually good to know what you are good at. Critical people themselves will forget that piece because I am very, I know what I do wrong every time. I could tell you where I mess up, even in interviewing. I could tell you where I mess up, where I was asked a different question, how wish I would have phrased it differently, wish I would have changed the tone of my voice. But I always forget to like look for something I did well. And that is so important in any domain or endeavor of life. It becomes the tether.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of again, hopefully it's cool that we're fluidly between business and sports, because in my mind, they're they're honestly no different. Uh they're very similar. The reason we love talking about sports to our business crowd is because your business with a scoreboard. You know what I mean? Like in business, it can be fuzzy, maybe everyone doesn't know the numbers that, you know, it takes a lot. This is like it's business and it's playing out on a very public scale. And whether that combination of people, process, technology, design translates into success is very visible. And the rules are clear, right? In business, the trickier part is you have to define the rules that of the game you're going to play and then go play it. But if you sort of flipped it and said, okay, now forgetting about receiving feedback, it's about giving it. Like when we're talking to leaders and managers about giving feedback, we talk about this a lot, which is there's this great quote that our brains are Teflon for the positive and Velcro for the negative. And people hear that quote and they're like, well, yeah, that's right. The thing you just said, right? Like even as I'm self-critiquing, I skip the nine things I did well and I pick up the negative one. When you're giving people feedback, that shows up in two different ways, right? It shows up in the way the leader typically is going to see the botched play and overlook the three that went well. And as you're giving the feedback, you could say, like, this play was amazing, that play was amazing, this play was amazing, this one was botched. The only one that they're hearing is the negative one. And so really, and the funny part is the negative ones usually tie back to a weakness. And if you asked anybody, you said, like, what's my best investment in somebody? Is it getting them to become average as something they're terrible at? Or is it getting them to be world class in something they're already excellent at? Everybody knows the answer is the second thing. Everybody knows it's like, yes, I could take this person from being great to a superstar on this dimension. I should do that. That would be the best investment I make. But our brains just bring us over here. They're just like, let's go to the weakness. I've got to, I've got to do that. And I feel like that is a big part of the unlock of the two sides of the feedback equation, which is we got to catch people winning. Help them see themselves winning. That's because that's a that's actually the thing you want them to do over and over and over again. Like you want to neutralize the weakness. We don't want it to be a liability. If you put someone in center field who can't catch, that's a bad idea. Like they should be able to catch. Do you know what I mean? But if they also hit, you know, if they have an uh, you know, an 1100 OPS, you know, like wow, like can I make that 1200? Because that's gonna be an awful lot of runs for us. And I don't want to make you a gold glover. I just want to make you catch. And so we always talk about it as like, can you neutralize the weakness and maximize the strength?
SPEAKER_02:One thing I think about in the tension there is a lot of times in winning, again, coming from a football background, it's probably a little bit different in other sports. Football, a lot of times when you win, you gloss over the mistakes that you made because you won. You looked too much into the outcome of the game and ignored the things that you need to improve on. Where do you find that healthy balance that we're talking about right now, where it's like, hey, we want to highlight the good, but we can not let certain things become our uh weakest link. So, how do you find that right tension?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if there's like a magic formula. I think I think you just need to make sure you're spending time on both. I would say that in my experience, most at least corporate cultures trit drift the other way. If you said, like, how much time are you spending celebrating the wins and reviewing the good stuff versus harping on mistakes and chewing people out, I would say it's 80-20 tilted towards the negative. And so my nudges are like, let's go this way. There's definitely companies we work with where they're they have a culture, like they have codified their in their culture that they want to be nice, that they want to be kind, that they want to be liked. And again, you can win that way, but then you have to know that like we are tilting towards this like other side, which is it is all just sunshine, rainbows, and happy praise. And to your point, like there's there could be ticking time bombs if we're not willing to sort of stare clear-eyed at what's going on over here. So my sense is probably just for each team, each organization to say which which culture are we running and where back to our existential risk? Where's our existential risk? Are we burning people out because they never feel like they have any success? Are we taking, are we getting people to obsess about their weaknesses when they should be doubling down on their strengths? Or are we just sort of constantly celebrating and a winning thing and we're slowly eroding in ways we're not realizing? Should we, should we take a hard, a stronger look at what we could be missing? Should we have someone red team it? Should we, you know, spend an hour doing like a lot of the special forces, right? They can have a successful mission. They're still gonna do an after-action review. They're still gonna say who could have done what better. Where do we come up short? Where do we get away with one? And that's kind of your point on the plays, right? You're like, yeah, we won that game, but we kind of got away with two turnovers, missing the coverage here. My Giants last night, like they they totally blew a coverage and thank God Jalen overthrew the receiver because that was about to turn the game around. So that was very fortunate.
SPEAKER_02:Is there a speaking to that point, is there a leadership style that you think creates the most success? Or is it true that there's all kinds of different leadership styles and there is not one particular one that leads to the most success? Look, I think there's two schools of thought.
SPEAKER_01:So I'll steal one from my old boss as one school of thought, and I'll give you then the other one, which is probably closer to I am. Ray was on this quest when I worked with worked with him to figure out what who shapers were, was his language for it. He's like, there's just certain people in the world that make bigger dents than others. And so in his mind, he interviewed folks like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and like you can, and other people in different domains, like prime ministers, things of that nature. And he had, he he sort of came up with like, oh, I had them all do these psychometric tests. And there were three or four attributes that were relatively in common. One of them was being like exceptionally high standard. Everything that was like below the standard was a problem. And they they could be bombastic about like firing people and calling people out and chewing people out. There was like really high standards. There was this very strong ability to traverse from the vision to the detail, what was like another piece. And I think you see that with some of the coaches, right? When you sort of look at some of the we talk a lot about Nick Saban in our program of how like when he recruits, every single position on the field gets reviewed on 60 attributes every season. And they're like making adjustments of like, oh, our left tackle should have had more ankle flexion and should be 10 pounds heavier next year. And you're like, holy cow. And then like they go through all these other details in terms of the recruits. And so they they had that in common. He had a thing that they talked about being open-minded at assertive. And so this was like the Elon Musk, like contrarian would be the like assertive side. And then knowing that like because they're doing big, hard, ambitious things with a contrarian point of view, they were very open-minded that they were missing it. So they were constantly hunting, sourcing more information, getting out outside input, getting other people to tell them these things. So that's that it's that these two a lot of them end up being these dualities. So I think that's one school of thought. And I think it's probably closer to right than wrong, but I think it's targeting like really big, visionary, ambitious elements that shaper, you know, probably somewhat biased on who he tested because they were already had all achieved massive success. The other school of thought is like think less so. Like I think that the important part becomes alignment between like the mission, the leader, and the team, than it does that there's one size fits all. And it's funny, like I can sort of see this. We're we were talking before we hit we hit record, that we're our daughter's like trying to figure out does she want to play college soccer and sort of watching this process over her shoulder as, you know, not only is she evaluating the institutions from a school perspective, but it's also like, well, what's the soccer program like? What style do they play? How does the coach interact with the players? How do the players like we go, we've gone to see a few games locally, just doesn't because you can't, I can't see that on the website. So you're sort of leaning over the fence. I'm like, how are these girls treating each other? Like, is that how you want to spend four years? Because you're working, you're putting in a tremendous amount of effort and work for this culture. And I would say what we've seen is like there's a really big range of systems, and those systems are producing a big range of success and there's not a high correlation. What you end up seeing is the things line up. That, like, you know, we if it's if it's Bucknell's soccer and it's Kelly's culture of not really relying on the transfer portal and like it's stuck with me, right? She said, um, you know, the girl she brings in, if she gets it wrong, it's on her, not on them. She doesn't want them transferring. Like, she wants to get it right and sort of creating that more old school lasting culture. And then you can look at their programs in like the SEC and other places that have turned it around this year from like bottom to first. And you, well, what's the diagnosis? Well, they they brought in eight or nine kids from other programs that were juniors, seniors, postgrads. And you're like, okay, two different leaders, two different cultures, two different, and that they're both achieving success. So I tend to think that the alignment becomes clear. How do you make that practical for the leader? Like they've got to, again, they've got to know the system they're creating. They've got to be pretty transparent about it. Like, don't trick people. I find that happens sometimes. You try to like recruit in great people who aren't aligned with like this type of setup. And you're like, okay, I've got a great athlete who the system's gonna organ reject. You're better off getting that alignment and you'll probably produce more that way.
SPEAKER_02:Practicality is the important piece in that. I think about as well, individual athletes. Tiger Woods is different than Scotty Scheffler. Michael Jordan, different than Steph Curry, LeBron James, different than Kobe Bryant. Tom Brady, different than Peyton Manning. And learning and creating that self-awareness to align your behaviors with where you want to go and how to best put the different pieces needed. And I heard from a coaching perspective, something that I really liked from Pete Carroll, who was talking about like the different philosophies of coaching, comparing himself to Bill Belichick. And I forget the third person he compared himself to, but he was just talking about like the military dictator version of leadership style in a locker room. The hey, high standard's really important, but you're gonna be yourself as long as you have the same mentality. And then the third one was kind of more just he kind of called it like the kumbaya type leadership style. And the fascination I have in all this is how do you know which one is right for you and what you want to do?
SPEAKER_01:I would probably look back and say, almost diagnose when you've been your most successful uh successful as a leader. Like when were you at your best? When were you pick your words? Like when were you in the flow? When were you high energy versus low energy? What elevates you versus takes it down? I I know you had my friend Justin Sue on here, right? Like what what when when are you showing up as a fountain and when are you sort of feeling that drain? And what are those types of people who are producing that around you? And sort of looking at that, and then I think they can start to give you like a bit of a heat signature. Go. I I tend to, I tend to be more kumbaya. Like my um, you know, I run the business with my wife. She'll be the first one, first class. We do a big thing on self-awareness, and she'll be like, oh, guys, I'm a people pleaser. Like it has served me very well at times. And then in a different context, it has served me very poorly, you know? And and so we'll and so what does that mean? Like, am I is she gonna she can try to stop being a people pleaser, but that usually is pretty hard for people. Maybe it's like tied up to the identity, it's what they value. Like there's there's a lot wrapped up in that. Or you could say, I want to pick games where that she went into sales. That's it, makes total sense. Do you know what I mean? And and so instead you pick a game where that leadership style is rewarded. And so I think that if you can start to then reflect and say, where am I having success? Where do I have high energy? Where am I most impactful? Then you can start to ask the question of like, well, what game is that uniquely suited to play?
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Like a lot of the athletes we're talking about in sports are world world class at their sport. They'd be very good at the other ones, but they Michael Jordan showed us like it's actually hard to hit a fastball.
SPEAKER_02:The hiring of these teams or the recruiting, are there certain traits in individuals that you look for where you're like, that person's gonna be successful. They get it.
SPEAKER_01:At what point will you be annoyed when I keep saying it depends?
SPEAKER_02:Listen, I told you I think the world is very gray. I do not think it's as black and white as people make it out to be.
SPEAKER_01:I don't either. Um, the the thing that I try to get leaders to do is to say, like, what are your non-negotiables? Because again, I think the alignment matters more than the perfect sort of combination within people. I have a point of view for me personally. Like, I like humble and hungry. I like people who are energy razors. Like, I don't uh I'm at the point in my career where I'm like, no, I'm like, I don't want to work with drains. I want fountains, no drains. I don't, I don't have to. So why would I? I'm worse when someone is bringing me down. I'm better when they're raising the energy in the room. I try to be that for other people. I want more people to be in the room with me like that. So like humble and hungry, energy razors. I like people biased towards action. I tend to think like people there's a set of people who like overthink things. And there's just only so much theory you can you can live in where eventually you've got to like take a step and find out works or doesn't work. If it works, take another step. If it doesn't, pivot, you know, and keep iterating until we go. That's a but again, those are a bit more if you were trying to join my team and be a part of my company, and like I would want you aligned with those types of things because they're so valuable and important in terms of how we operate, that could be different for other people. You know what I mean? Like if you're called, we it's funny. We work with this, there's this uh startup in the mental health space. And when we first started working with her, she's like, oh, one of our values is integrity. And I'm like, you and every company on earth. Like, what? And then, but it's funny because she was like, Yeah, you know, you're kind of right too. Cause I've had to fire a couple of people because they didn't have integrity. And I was like, You're a startup, you have like five people. Like, what are we talking about? How could you possibly have to fire multiple people for your core value? And I'm like, tell me more about it. Like, what do you, when you say integrity, what do you mean? And she told this amazing story about when she was really first starting to create it and bring in a co-founder. She was new to the VC space and she like accidentally agreed to like a post-money valuation versus a pre-money valuation or vice versa. I'm obviously not in that space, but it diluted her stake in the company pretty dramatically. The lawyers, the advisors, the boy, everybody was like, walk it back, walk it back. Like they'll understand. They knew they knew it was the other way. And she was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like I made a deal. This was the agreement. If I'm gonna bring people into this company in this space that we're gonna be in, and ask them to always operate on the far side of fair, I need to, I need to show, I need to lead by example. And I was like, your cultural value is not integrity, it's operating on the far side of fair. And the thing is, like, not everybody wants to do that at work. People, because you hear people talk a lot about boundaries and borders and your responsibility, my responsibility. That's saying I want to operate on the edge of fair. I'm like, I'll come right to the edge and I'll be very happy there, but please don't ask me to go over that. She only wants people who will be on the far side. And so that becomes a like a much more magnetic way to talk about it. And so, like, I don't necessarily need people to operate in the far side of fair for my business, but she does. And so I think, again, being clear and sharp and almost magnetic, like almost strong enough with your wording to repel the wrong people and attract the right people becomes the way to think about those traits and figure out like what are your actual non-negotiables.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's like the Elon. It's like we want to put people like on the moon. We're in, I forget the exact mantra that he uses, but it is designed to specifically attract people who want to dedicate their life to doing things in space and repel anyone who's like, that sounds a little bit ridiculous or outside of what I want to do. How tough way to ask this question, but like, how do you create those mantras that are so powerful and unique?
SPEAKER_01:Precision versus detail. So again, and this is I think this is hard because when we're I think you and I both not only do we have publications called the playbook, but like I think we aspire, we we we we come from high performance backgrounds, we aspire to work with high performers, and that's sort of the lens we see things through. And so a lot of the stories that stick to us most strongly are like the high aspiration that put people on the moon. That is not necessarily the aspiration that the right people need for every company. It's just like today. Uh we have a pro we have a small cabin in Vermont and we have a foundation issue. Like, I need a Mason who has enough mission in West Southern Vermont that he can attract another Mason so that they could possibly lay some brick for me. But you know what I mean? Like that doesn't have to be landing on the moon. But you've got to be able to tell the story of like stable work, good jobs, whatever else. And so I don't, I think it becomes down to like clarity. That's what I'm saying, it's precision, not detail. Like you need to be precise. Like that's the whole like niche down. Like be really clear about it's not integrity, it's far side affair. You know, like do you do you want to be the best Masons or do you want to be Masons who have a good work-life balance? Do you want, you know, like what are those things? And I think if you tell that story with precision, the right people will be able to find you and be attracted to that precision. And the wrong people will know right away not to waste your time or theirs.
SPEAKER_02:Who are your favorite teams to work with? What type of culture do you enjoy personally working with?
SPEAKER_01:Um I really like the teams that I do like the ambitious teams. I like the ones who are very test and iterate, very, very data-driven, very logical. I like, I tend to, I would say our sweet spot tends to be companies that have gotten just big enough to run into some of the more complicated team and high performance problems, but not so big that they already have a giant HR department. So it's typically like 30 to 50 people, maybe upwards of 200. And a lot of times it's founders. It's founders who woke up one day and maybe they had, we work with a lot of e-commerce founders, you know, they sort of had a small business one day and then it took off because of the scale of the internet. And they looked up and like, oh my gosh, I have 50, 60, 100 employees. Kind of just a like, like this hobby is a eight-figure, nine-figure hobby. And I never knew I was gonna have to manage like layers of people. Can you please give me the operating system? Can you please help me go from zero to one on that in six months instead of six very, very painful years? So I think that's usually that's usually the sweet spot of the folks we work with.
SPEAKER_02:It's funny that comparison, one of former guests that had we were we were talking about coaches in general and how certain coaches seem to fail pretty hard. And he was like, you know, some of these guys were just good at coaching football and they knew X's and O's. And through that, they rose the ranks and they didn't understand everything else that comes with it, or didn't feel that they built the qualifications to do that. And it was, hey, at first I was just really good at knowing the X's and O's of football. Now I have to deal with boosters. Now I have to deal with NIL and my star quarterback wanting to go to a different school. He was like, that stuff wasn't on the document that they signed when they became a head coach of a program. And I don't know if there's enough people like you out there in the athletic world specifically, but it is something where leadership, at least I feel at particularly in college institutions, in NFL and professional, where leadership is most needed right now. I don't know if that's recency bias, but I feel like leadership is needed now more than it has been, at least when growing up.
SPEAKER_01:It's funny because this is a I haven't gotten strongly into this world, but it's starting where there's a couple, a couple of coaches, sports coaches that we work with. And it's for exactly the thing you're talking about, which is well, I knew I had to lead the locker room. Like I knew I had to coach the sport. I also, it turns out I'm kind of the CEO of a business too. And are, you know, there's just a lot of it's because you had some of them. Like it's the it's the boosters, it's the social media, it's the events, it's the whole other apparatus. And they're not athletes, but they require a vision of where we're taking the program. They require clear expectations, they require someone judging their performance. They've they require all those same management things. And so that's sort of two for one, where we can talk about leadership across both domains and also talk about how do I practically manage people for what is effectively in their mind their side job. Like that is the side hustle. But it also holds some of that existential risk, right? It holds some of those things that could blow you up as a coach if you don't get them right, pay attention. Like the boosters can be a problem. A bad social media strategy in today's day and age can be a problem. You know, like all those things are real.
SPEAKER_02:Well, hey, I appreciate you, man. This This was really fun. I can't remember an interview I laughed at this often.
SPEAKER_01:But if you could take that as a compliment.
SPEAKER_02:It's a compliment. Your delivery's fantastic. If people want to reach out to you, where can they reach out to you? How can people get a hold of you and get involved with what you're doing? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The absolute easiest place now is Dave Klein.com. K-L-I-N-E. You can get to our newsletter on there, the management playbook. You can see some of our leadership and management training programs. If you you need a speaker, we do a little bit of that too. And all the details are on there.
SPEAKER_02:I appreciate you, my friend. Thank you for coming on. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week. Download the pod. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Five stars only, maybe. Appreciate you, man.