The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Formerly The Athletic Fortitude Show.... Colin Jonov’s Athletic Fortitude Show has rebranded to The Playbook with Colin Jonov, evolving from a sports-centric podcast to a universal guide for mastering life’s challenges. While retaining its foundation in mindset and performance excellence, the show now expands its scope to empower everyone—athletes, entrepreneurs, professionals, and beyond—to live life to its fullest potential
The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Nick Raquet: The Pitcher Who Quit Baseball, Joined Wall Street, Then Fought His Way Back to the MLB
St. Louis Cardinals pitcher Nick Raquet and I dig into the mindset that turns overthinking into action, why conviction beats a “perfect” plan, and how a three-year break from baseball led to a sharper return to the show. The call-up, the debut, and the plan to stay there all hinge on believing big and focusing small.
• balancing aggression with calm on the mound
• using thought in prep, then shutting it off to compete
• pitch clock rhythm, scouting, and trusting strengths
• conviction over hesitation and owning every pitch
• debut advice: narrow focus and slow the game
• leaving baseball for EY and finding purpose again
• building productive self-talk and identity beyond sport
• setting new goals, avoiding the hedonic treadmill
• availability, workload, and staying big-league ready
Tune in next week, download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel
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What is the mindset you approach pitching with? How do you stay calm, or are you someone who gets fired up when you're on the mound?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I actually think like ironically, it's a little bit of both. I think you have to be calm and also fiery and competitive in like really, really intense moments. Um so I think being able to like really tap into that like like that intensity, that aggression that like I'm gonna beat you no matter what, like it's me versus you, and I'm gonna win. Um, but also being able to slow yourself down, like take a breath. Um, because everything's gonna be moving so fast, especially like the higher up the level you go, um, the bigger the stakes are. Things start to speed up pretty quick. So with that aggression, it can kind of almost like double doubly fold. And um, so it's good to always like find that breath, like find little things that you can do to like um like recollect yourself and reset yourself. So um I think I'd probably say more aggression and like more like competitiveness than like that calmness, but I think like being able to do both is really important.
SPEAKER_01:How intellectual are you? Like are you someone who's like deep in thought out there, or are you trying to keep it as simple as possible?
SPEAKER_00:Um I think I am probably pretty deep in thought. Um it probably gets me in trouble more often than it doesn't, than it helps me. I think um like thought can be a really, really important tool to like to be able to like get feedback, to go through it, figure out how you can make changes, um, what you need to do better next time, what you need to continue to do. But I think it can also really block up a lot of stuff that we can get in our own way instead of just like going out and just like letting our bodies and minds do what they do. Um I would say I'm kind of intellectual. I've always kind of been an overthinker. Um, but I think there's times where it's good to like turn it off. And there's definitely been times where like I've needed to turn it off and just like let the play happen and just um just go from there.
SPEAKER_01:I was talking with Colton Hawk uh a while ago, and we're talking about like the best pitchers that he has been around. He said they have a unique ability to either be really dumb or to be able to kind of go out there and trigger that not that you don't care, but to be able to kind of separate the result from being able to go out there and pitch, and where have you found your sweet spot in that realm?
SPEAKER_00:Um I love I love the idea of like being too dumb. Like it's honestly something I honestly strive for sometimes because I think just when you think too much, you can just get so mechanical and you can just get so stuck in what you're doing. Like, I'm sure that it works the same way on the football field. Like, if you're thinking so much and doing whatever, like you're not gonna make the right move, you're not gonna be able to know where you're supposed to be and stuff like that. I didn't even play football. I just figured like if you don't like if you're thinking too much about like, okay, I have to do this with my hands and I have to do this with my body and drop and turn and rotate, and then it's like I have to know what play I'm at, where are the runners and all these things, it's like it can get very crowded in your mind, and like it doesn't let your mind just be loose and just do the actions that you need to do. Um I think more often than not I've been on that too much, like too intellectual and too dumb side of things. I'd like to maybe shift more towards the dumb side of things. Um because I think just being able to turn the brain off and just going out and just like letting your letting your athleticism and your um your experience in the game take over, I think is uh probably more beneficial at this point in my life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the the football thing is interesting. I would say there's a lot of guys who probably a lot is generalizing, that are more on the side of they really just don't think at all, they go out and play than like the deeper thought individuals. Unfortunately, I was one of those deeper thought individuals and I kind of had to learn the skill set to be able to not become dumb, but be able to go out and play freely. And the my process became okay, I can think, you know, relentlessly pre-snap. I can go through all my checks. I can know, hey, what's my responsibility? Down in distance, personnel, alignment. Um, you know, who, which players where? Who do they like to go to? Where is the back tilted? Right, and go through all these different checks in my mind. But as soon as that ball snaps, boom, all thought gone, play. Right. And give myself like AQ. Okay, like here's who I'm watching. Okay, I know everything that's going on. Here's exactly what I'm gonna watch. It's gonna tell me at least what type of play I'm getting. So to be able to take a complex system to make simple, it's easier in football because it's like there's pretty defined patterns that are repeatable. And maybe the pitch clock helps now with you guys, but like I knew within 25 to 40 seconds that was my time frame before I had to collect all the information and be ready to shut off and know my keys. And I don't know if the pitch clock helps with that, hurts with that, or like what is your process to kind of get yourself ready for pitch mode?
SPEAKER_00:Um, like, quick note on the pitch clock. I actually really like the pitch clock. I think um I think it's just the way to keep the flow of the game moving. I think there's a lot of times where it just like baseball feels like it really drags on and it can kind of just feel like there's no rhythm to a game, but I think the clock kind of keeps in like a really nice pace. Um but yeah, like I think the clock definitely helps with that because it's like you have to you have to go every 15 seconds, 18 seconds if there's guys on base. And um, but for me, it's just more about like, okay, what's the situation? There's guys on first, second, whatever, no one on base. Um, what like what time of game is it? What's the score? And then I think just after that, it's just like a breath and a go. It's just like trusting the what like exactly what you said, like what you know, like your your checks, like who's the who's the hitter? And I'm in the bullpen leading up to my time in the game, and we have you know charts and we know what this hitter does and what his tendencies are, and how is he against spin and how is he with um fastballs coming in? Is he better against lefties or righties? Like so there's certain guys that I know that, like, hey, like this is a guy that I might be like coming in for. Like this is these are this spot of the lineup is really good for me in this situation. And that's something that I had to learn too, and kind of going through how advanced some scouting can get. But then, like you said, like whenever I'm out there on the mound and I'm taking my warmup pitches, like those thoughts are in my head because I prepared for it. But after that, it's like you just gotta go compete. If you're still thinking about the game plan, like you're just gonna block up other things that are gonna get in your way.
SPEAKER_01:How have you evolved in this process? Were you always this way, or did you have to find course corrections?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I definitely had to fight course corrections. I think that's probably anyone. I think anyone that says they haven't are most likely lying. Um, it's a lot of trial and error, I think. Um just trying something a certain way and like you think it works, and it works. It's like, oh, I don't really have to prepare for hitters because I can just throw my best pitch in my best spot and it's not gonna get hit, and um we're gonna go from there, and then you know, you get to a certain level, you get to a point where baseball really can humble you and you can be doing everything that you think is right, and you're you know, hitting your spots and you're throwing good pitches, and even if you're not like um it's so easy to it's so easy to get like stuck with um, where do I want to go with this? Well, maybe I need to backtrack for a second, but I think just like there's so much information out there that like some people just don't want to use any of it, and they just want to trust themselves and be like, no, I have the best fastball there is, I have the best slider there is. Um, and other people need all the information. They need every single weakness and every single little caveat that they can exploit with a hitter and a situation and stuff like that. And I think um I've kind of found myself in the middle where I think um information is really, really good and it can be really valuable, but I also think that you can drown in information and there can be too much and it can get in the way of just like the normal flow because we are playing a game, and I think sports in general have gotten really analytical and um in how we like base our strategies and how we decide to go about hitters and games and whatnot. But I think um I think like yeah, like I said, trial and error with um especially like getting to levels where you need to know like like when I debuted, um, there's guys like a Randy Rosarina, there was Cal Raleigh in these lineups, and you know, you're seeing these things and their approaches, and like they're like these, like they'll just say like this guy clobbers lefties. We want him to hit from the we want him to hit from the left side. So like Cal Raleigh, like they want him to hit from a certain side of the play because he had really good numbers against left-handed hitters, so they wanted him to hit lefty. Um so, but then there were other guys who are like, hey, like there's a couple lefties here, there's a couple righties here that you might be able to face. So, and it changes for pitcher to pitcher. Like, obviously, like guys that have more power stuff might be able to face anyone, and you just kind of like pick your spots and you kind of figure out like how you fit into games based on the data and whatnot, and what your strengths are.
SPEAKER_01:How does that impact like what goes on in your mind in the middle of an at-bat? You think about the you know, catcher giving you a signal. Are you shaking him off based off of what you want to throw, or are you trusting your catcher to give you the right pitch based off of the inner dynamics of an at bat?
SPEAKER_00:Um before I say it, I will say the at the end of the day, it is your career as a pitcher. So I think like you need to feel convicted in every single thing that you're throwing at all times, like whether it's you know, Yachty or Molina back there, or it's you know, my little brother just playing catch in a backyard game. Like, I need to feel confident that like I'm throwing a fastball here, like they're calling a fastball, and I feel good about it. If I'm, you know, like uh 50-50 on throwing this fastball here, uh, this guy's a pretty good hitter. I'm not gonna make a good pitch. I'm gonna, you know, question myself. There's gonna be doubt in my head. I'm not gonna have that same conviction and that same intent to be doing exactly, you know, what's supposed to be done in that spot. I I would rather make the wrong choice and be like, oh, I'll throw a slider here and I really want to do that, and then be like, hmm, might not be the best decision. I'd rather feel so convicted in a mistake like that and learning from it than just like throwing something that I don't believe in. Um, I will say that when I was in the big leagues, there was a 0% chance I was shaking. Um I would just I was doing whatever they were saying. I trusted them. They've been up here, they know these guys way better than I do. I was just gonna go like whatever I heard in the pitch calm, we were gonna do and we were gonna be convicted in that. So, you know, I think there's spots where, you know, I really I mean, at the end of the day too, like I the plan was the plan and like it made sense in my head. But like I think if the time comes, like, you know, at the big league level, if I need to shake, like I'm I'm gonna shake, you know, it's uh like you know, they they say like they're your stats, they're it's your career, it's all that stuff. So and I think it's just like a good mindset to just be convicted in everything you do.
SPEAKER_01:It's a little bit different of a parallel in football. Now you can't just do what you want as a defensive player, it doesn't work that way. But like in the sense, like when you make a mistake, make it full speed. Like that is universally communicated in any locker room defensive meeting that I've been in. Is at the end of the day, we may make a wrong communication call as a secondary or as a defense. That's okay. One, as long as we're all on the same page, but two, when you make a mistake, make it full speed. And so that's very similar to how you're talking about if I'm going to throw a pitch, I'd rather throw a non-typical pitch in this situation and throw it with conviction in my best than throw something half speed or with hesitation, because the outcome of a badly thrown right pitch is worse than if I throw a perfectly executed wrong pitch.
SPEAKER_00:Right. That yeah, that's kind of how I think of it. And it's like, it's more like like when I go to bed at night after a game, like what can I like live with? Like, can I live with I, you know, I didn't agree with him on that, and I went with what I believed in. Like, you know, like I'm gonna believe in myself more often than I'm gonna believe in I think anybody else. And I think that's just kind of my experience as well, that that's worked for me. Um, you know, if I have to have a conversation with someone about like the decisions that I'm making and like learning from that and being able to make a better decision the next time, like I'm all for that as well. I think it's just all about like that same feedback loop, like being convicted in something, doing it like you said, 100%, like making mistakes at 100% effort and speed, and if and and living with the consequences and being able to um be accountable for those decisions and be able to explain your thought behind the decisions. And I've never really had the best coaches I've had have never um truly questioned or truly like gone at my intentions. If I have like, well, I thought if, you know, XYZ in this count, we set them up this way. This is what my thought for this. Like, if if I feel like I have like conviction in my reasoning, I've never really been like, oh, Nick, you're an idiot. Why would you do that? Like, why are you even pitching? Like, do you have a brain? Like, so I just think um I think that's like a trait that's it's been a it's been a hard trait to learn, but it's something that I think has been invaluable to me. Because you can hear everyone like, oh, like, oh, why did he call that? I gave up a homer, like that. Like, you're the pitcher, man. Like you're you're a grown man out there, like make your own choices, like it's nobody else's fault but your own. So you gotta own it either way, success or failure.
SPEAKER_01:What were the emotions like of getting that call-up to the big leagues and stepping on the mound for the first time?
SPEAKER_00:Um, the call-up was really cool. Um, so we we had like a we had a Sunday game. It was like early September. Um, I was supposed to throw on the on the Sunday, and I didn't get in the game and I didn't really think anything of it. Um like sometimes like we're kind of slated for outings during the week just in the minor league season. Um didn't really think anything of it. Um, like left this, left the stadium completely. My uh my girlfriend was in town. We just went back to um the apartment that they have us staying at in Memphis, and we like went on a little walk along the Mississippi River that's right by the apartment. Um, came back to my left my phone at home, like just was just left, wanted to be away from stuff. Came back and I had like five missed calls from the manager, like still no clue in my head. Like called him back, was like, hey BJ, like what's going on? Like, all's good. And he's like, hey, like what's going on? Like, I'm calling you like after the series on a Sunday, like, and I'm just no clue. It's going right over my head. I he's like, I'm like, yeah, like what's up? Like, how you doing? Like, I'd like to enjoy the rest of my day. And he's like, he's like, I'm gonna need you to get back down here. Like, you gotta pack up your stuff, like you're gonna go pitch in Seattle. And I just was like, this is I didn't believe it at first. Like it just didn't, it didn't hit me. It was just like, oh my gosh, like I gotta I gotta go. Like this game is tomorrow, like I gotta fly out there. Like, it didn't even like register to me that like holy crap, like this is me going to the big leagues. It was just like, dang, this is this is what's next. And it was just like a pan, like just panic, just like rushing around, like having to pack everything up, running back to the stadium downtown Memphis, packing everything up, um, saying goodbye to people, saying thank you to everyone there, and uh heading on my way, flew out to Seattle the next morning. Um got there, got to the hotel about an hour before the bus was supposed to go out to T-Mobile. Um got out there, and it's like the whole pregame was such a blur. Um, all the guys there are amazing. Uh, just had some experience playing with some of them throughout the minors before they made their own call-ups and started their careers up there. So it was just great to have guys that, you know, like I had experience with, like guys that I'd played with and uh had my back, and it just like it felt like it felt good. It felt like I was like supposed to be there. It didn't feel like I felt out of place. It was um, it was definitely like nerve-provoking and scary, but it was uh it was just an awesome experience. And then, you know, they told me, like, hey, like, be ready to go first game, like you never know. And I was just like, Yeah, sure. Like I had teammates that had gone up and like, you know, they had been up there for five, six days and they didn't even pitch, and they go right back down. And, you know, I was just I was happy to be up there, be around people, and just you know, any opportunity that I was gonna get was gonna be like holy crap. But getting into the first day, um it was really awesome. And I don't think it uh I don't think I really processed it for a long, long time um afterwards because it was just like at the end of the day, like I can't be like, oh my god, this is my debut, like this is so cool. Like I gotta go do a job, I gotta pitch. I wanna, you know, obviously like leave a good impression on these guys, you know, going into this season as well, like hope hoping to like make an impression for the next team and everything. So at the end of the day, it's like, yeah, like this is really cool. This is my debut, but it's like I gotta go get a couple guys out here, I gotta go do my job and everything. But um I got really good advice. Um, one of the assistant pitching coaches kind of came up to me in the outfield, uh, BP before the game, and he was the one that kind of was like, hey, like you never know, you might get in there today. And I was just like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, like of course, like sure, like I'll be ready. And he was just like, okay, so when you're in there, like T-Mobile, they got a lot of fans, like you're gonna want to look everywhere, you're gonna want to like you know, stare and like take it all in. He's like, don't. He's like, you and Jimmy. Jimmy was our catcher that day, Jimmy Crooks, um, awesome catcher. He um he was just like, just look at Jimmy, keep it, keep your focus right there. Don't look at anybody else. If you feel like you're moving 400 miles an hour, try to move 200 miles an hour. If you still feel like that's too fast, move 100 miles an hour because you're gonna be moving way faster than like you think you're going to be, even if you are calm in any sort of way. So um that was honestly the best advice I ever got. I kind of ran out there. I kind of just like just dead stared in front of me, didn't really look at anyone. Like, obviously, like you know there's people there, but um, I never really let it like get into my head that, oh dang, we're there's like 40 plus thousand people here. Like, this is the most people I've ever thrown in front of, and the biggest game I've ever thrown in. Um, but it was nice to like have have a catcher that I was familiar with familiar with back there, and then having that advice to just like, hey man, like this is baseball, 60 feet, six inches. This is there's nine guys behind you. There's, you know, it's the same, it's the same game, just in a cool stadium. That's all it is. And um, it was really good advice and went out there and just uh just tried to fill up the zone and got three outs and got out there and then had to throw again the next day back to back, which was the first time I've ever done that. So that was a little, that was a lot, but it was uh it was awesome again to get back out there and make an impact.
SPEAKER_01:Did you ever, from the time that you got the call, hey, you're getting called up to the majors to on the mound, was there ever a time period in that hectic window where you were like, I don't know if I'm capable of this, or you get some of that doubt, fear that creeps in, or was it pretty much just a line Foy, I'm here to do a job?
SPEAKER_00:Um I think if this happened to me the year before, yes, 100%. I would have had that doubt and stuff. Um, but I think this year I just like I just I felt really confident in what I was doing. I looked Loved the approach that I was having to hitters. And I thought I, you know, I had been having success with it, and it had been really working for me. And it was less about like nervousness than like, okay, here's an awesome opportunity to go do this at the highest level possible. And I think like being able to like reshape um like my perspective and my mindset into being more like positive outlooking, like not like a oh geez, like this could be like a huge moment versus like what an opportunity this is. Like I think those kind of like shifts in perspective were invaluable to me versus like like this year versus the year before that, where there were times I think where in the past where like I wasn't confident in my abilities, and it was like not like oh crap, I have to pitch today or oh crap, I'm going into this game, but like, oh, like not like a oh here goes nothing outing or one of those, like I don't really know how I'm gonna feel this this week or this outing. And it was just kind of like a I'm treading water, just trying to make it to September, trying to get to the offseason in one piece and just go from there. But this season it felt like I took command of my um like my routine, my day-to-day, uh, what my like what my headspace looked like, my self-talk and stuff like that, and just trying to be like overly positive with um what I was putting out there with myself.
SPEAKER_01:What type of self-talk works for you? Uh I when I talk about this topic, I I view it more from productive self-talk because there's certainly times, and you know, you talk about being an intense, fiery guy. I'm very similar in my approach. There's times like where I have to speak what most would perceive as negatively, but for me, it can be incredibly productive. Now you can't live in that space all the time unless that's what works for you. But is there like an internal dialogue where you're like, this is like how I know I need to get myself ready?
SPEAKER_00:Um, this might be a Northeast thing because I also talk horribly negative to myself. Uh I um I think that there's like there's ebbs and flows. I think I was much more negative with myself and like almost in like a bullying way when I was a little bit younger, maybe like college, like early pro days. Um, but now it's I think it's like a healthy blend of both. Like it's it's knowing when you need to like, you know, be your own best coach and like give yourself a kick in the in the rear and just kind of like, you know, like I've said things to myself that like I know no one else will ever say to me. Like, like, like I can like I can take it. Like no one, like none's ever gonna say things to me that I haven't said to myself. And like, you know, because we're we're around ourselves the most. Like we know what gets to us, we know what bothers us, what we're insecure about, what we want to work on, what we're not so good at. And um but it's like to focus on that stuff, it like you said, it can be like really, really detrimental to your success. It can like, it can, it can pitfall you to like always think of yourself in a negative light. So I think if you can blend those and people will argue about this, like motivational like negativity versus like being like a really good self-talking and like like not going like, oh, don't throw a ball here versus like throw like throw this with conviction, like like like just talking yourself up, like yeah, you're the man, you're the best spot for this, like no one better here than you, like versus like ah geez, like I don't really like like be confident, like you're out there for a reason, like like it's not a mistake that you're there, that you're on this field, that you're with these other players. Like, if you feel like you don't belong there, like that's that's internal. Like that's something that you feel like, oh, I'm not as good as that guy or this pitcher, this hitter's way better than me. And like that that thought process has never really got me anywhere. So I think it's like when people think negativity, they can think about like those insecurities and their doubts. I think like the negativity to kind of give you like that, like that kick in the butt is I think where I draw it from. Like, come on, Nick, like like come on, like let's go. Like, kind of like kind of like self-talk yourself and like kind of pump yourself up in that way to kind of kind of fight, like you said, like fire you up and get you going.
SPEAKER_01:It's a lot of it comes down to the self-awareness, like of an athlete of knowing what you need and when you need it. It's also knowing what you believe in philosophically if you're someone who thinks more. So, like for myself, right? I think like an easy parallel here is like when I'm on a golf course, I use that exact type of language, like instead of uh don't hit any of the sand, don't hit into the water, I'm like, I'm looking to hit this left side of the green, or I'm looking to hit this right side of the fairway. Whatever it is, like pick out my target and talk about hitting that target instead of saying, like, don't miss here, I'm talking about just hitting it here or landing it here. But in the sense of when I'm a competitor and I'm in a competitive landscape, like even if I'm like in the weight room pushing myself and there's a weight where I'm like, oh, I'm feeling a little fatigued, or like, ah, this is challenging, or maybe this is hurting an old injury a little bit more. I can easily pull that switch from like, all right, Colin, time to stop being a bitch. Like, time to hit this because you can. Right. And there's a part of being an athlete as well where you talk about that, that conviction and building that competency level. Right. I think that is the ultimate confidence, conviction process is being so competent in something that it is nearly impossible, regardless of how you feel that day, to not be able to go out there with some level of conviction that I can do this because you've spent the time, right? And you hit a couple of the topics earlier. I know what my mindset is, I know what my training protocol has been, I know what my diet nutrition has been, X, Y, Z. I have all these things that I've built a level of skill set in that regardless of how I may feel one day, I'm able to elicit those skill sets because I've done nothing but build them over years and years and years of practice. And sometimes it just takes a maturity level and an awareness level to be able to bring that side out of you when it's needed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think like it can almost like it can almost seem like delusional to other people too, like how you talk positively about yourself, but like it doesn't, like that doesn't matter. Like it, it doesn't have to make sense to anybody else but you or the people that are like really close to you. Like if you think that like if I think that I'm the best of anyone out there, like, like I don't need anyone else to agree with me. Like that's that's how I feel, and that's what helps me feel convicted in what I'm doing out there. It doesn't have to be fact. It doesn't, I don't need a million people to agree that I'm one of the better relievers there are. Like, but if I have that mindset and I have that kind of conviction in what I'm doing on the field, then it's gonna help me more often than it's gonna hurt me. It doesn't hurt me to say those things and be wrong according to whoever, it doesn't matter. It's what it's what drives me to do what I need to do when I need to do it.
SPEAKER_01:I've heard Draymond Green talk about the exact concept, and I'm in full alignment where it's if you're doing something and you don't believe you're the best in the world, you've you have no chance.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you already lost.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It's like Draymond Green, like he's like, when I'm out there playing and competing, he's like, I'm the best basketball player in the world. He's like, it's not Steph Curry, it's not LeBron. He's like, it's me. I'm the best player in the world when I'm out on that court. He's like, now when you get into a setting, right, or like a media thing, he's like, whatever. Conversations happen, opinions happen. He's like, but when I'm out there competing, he's like, I'm the best player in the world, and nobody can convince me otherwise.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And like, if we were having a conversation about our top 10 best basketball players ever, like I'm assuming Draymond Green would not be on either of our lists, but like that doesn't matter to him. Like that doesn't that doesn't affect how he plays, how hard he plays, you know, whatever you want to say about Draymond Green. Um, but like that's his conviction in who he is as an athlete and how he plays the game. And I don't there's nothing wrong with that. It's I think it's honestly like I think it's inspirational. It's something that I think a lot of athletes should do. Like, I think we it's so easy to just be like, oh, you're not so good, like whatever. Like who cares? Like, let them think however they want to think. It doesn't affect you. It doesn't do anything with you, just like control what you control. Like, it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01:Now, we're we see you now, and you debuted in the MLB for the St. Louis Cardinals. You took a three-season gap from the time that you were drafted in the minors, left baseball, you went and got a job at Ernst Young, big four accounting firm, and then three years later, you're like, Yeah, I'm gonna play baseball again. And then two years after that, or timeline here, you're in the major leagues. You what happened in that span that where you go from leaving baseball and then now all of a sudden you're back and it's like, yeah, I'm ready to go again.
SPEAKER_00:Um I think like a lot of a lot of life, a lot of learning, um, a lot of like regret with stuff and just how I went about it, but obviously like looking back on stuff like wouldn't change anything for the world. Um I think with with leaving baseball, it just it felt like the right thing at the time. And um it was right before the COVID year. I was kind of struggling a little bit just like with mentally with stuff, um, just performance-wise. I didn't really feel like I was getting any better. I kind of felt honestly felt like I was going backwards. Um, like my body didn't really feel that good. And I was just like really frustrated with everything. It was like a month or so before spring training. I just didn't I just like didn't envision it being a good year. Like I just like I didn't know if something was gonna happen to my body. I didn't know if I was gonna get like like play my way out of baseball somehow. I didn't know, like my mind was just like a million things. And um COVID happened with the season and like shutting down spring training and stuff, and um you know, I ended up seeing it as like the season got canceled completely, and I ended up like seeing it as this like opportunity, like, okay, like I don't want to do nothing. Like I ended up going back to school with Twillium and Mary. I only had like 20-ish credits left. So I was taking classes in the summer, and then you know, summertime comes around, like they're still like kind of talking about even canceling like the following season. Like COVID was kind of like really, really moving. And I was just like, geez, man. And I forget exactly how old I was at this time. This was like 2020, 2021. So I'm like about like 25, like, and I just thought that was the oldest person in the world at that point in time. And I was just like, okay, I need to do something with my life. Like, I had the fall semester signed up to do classes. I had, you know, talks with professors and stuff about like, yeah, like I think you like you would be great in the finance field. I think this would be really cool. And I just kind of saw just like the long abyss of what it looked like to have two seasons just like taken from well, not just me, but everyone. Um, and obviously they didn't end up canceling that 2021 season, but like it felt like the biggest just like weight on my shoulders, like, okay, dang, I'm not gonna have played baseball since I was 24 and now 27. Like, that's when the next season's gonna be. Like, oh crap, like that's not much of a career left in what I saw of like being 27 to like however old you're lucky enough to play baseball. Like, I didn't see that as a huge thing, and it started to it started to make me feel like I needed to do something else with my life. So I just kind of saw like the okay, 2020 season's canceled, they're gonna have like the little shortened MLB season, but the minors is gonna be gone. Um, and then they were already kind of talking about the 2021 season, and I was just like, dang, that's two years of nothing. Then I just like didn't want to do nothing. And looking back on it, I kind of like wish I kind of took more time to like have some perspective of like 25 is not like being 75 in any way. Like my life isn't almost over, and I just like for whatever reason just saw it as like, oh, I'm such an old man in baseball, like I'd be lucky to play another year or two. And it was it was just like a combination of having good conversations with some William and Mary professors and having a couple good interviews, and just kind of what those interviews led me to think that, like, okay, like this wouldn't be such a bad transition in my life, and it kind of like felt like a natural transition with the whole like the whole world shutting down and trying to like pivot and doing something else. It just like in my head, it just like seemed like symbolic that I was supposed to be, you know, working in finance. And what made you want to come back? Um, so I was working for about a year at EY and up in uh like the Tyson's Corner area, mostly remote. Um and I just remember sitting at my at my little desk. This is literally the same desk that I was using that's out with me in Arizona. And I remember sitting at this desk and just like, I was like, what am I doing? Like I was doing like, I was doing like some like weekly report that I always had to do as some like low entry staff member. And it was just like the same thing every week. And I felt like I was just like watching like a fast-forwarded, like week to week, like sped up version of my life, and I was just like, this sucks. Like what, like what in the hell am I doing here? Like I'm working in a small little room, it's still like mostly remote. I don't get to go in anywhere. I was just like, my life has no purpose at all. Like I don't feel fulfilled in what I'm doing. I'm like, I was doing enterprise risk consulting, which is, I mean, it's just like assessing risks in businesses, and it's is it's very dry stuff. It's very like audit-based, and um it would just it just didn't seem it wasn't what I envisioned it being, and it wasn't and not that I thought it was gonna be like this big magical job or anything, work is work, and it's not the best fit. I didn't feel any connection to it. So I remember just like not really knowing what to do, talking to people close to me, and I was just like, I'm gonna go to my old facility in DC and just like play catch into a net and just like see what happens. Like I was just like frustrated and bored, and I just wanted to go do something that like I like I had an outlet doing, and I was just like, I'm just gonna go throw. And I was just throwing, and I threw for like a week, and I was just like, my body doesn't feel so bad. I was it didn't feel like I was like, it doesn't, it doesn't hurt, it's not sore. I thought I was gonna be like that, like that like old man soreness that I was so afraid of before I stopped playing and have any of that. I still like I was like staying in shape so I didn't just deteriorate in life, but I just started throwing like a little bit and a little bit. And then I was like, okay, like maybe I'll start reaching out to some people that I used to like work out with and stuff and like see if I can like get more organized with this. And it was just like that step to another step to um working out with like I worked out with Tread Athletics down in Charlotte, uh North Carolina for a while. Uh Tyler Zombro, shout out him. He's a huge, huge reason I got back into baseball. Uh the work that he did with me to get me back into playing shape and to throwing shape into being able to like be presentable to affiliate opportunities. So um through it pro days and then um with like you said, like with the whole like, hey Nick, you haven't played in three years, like you need to like we need to see you play. Like, yeah, you look okay, but playing's different than just what you can show in a pro day in a bullpen setting. So I went out to play indie ball for a year, and then um that same pro day I had the next year, they were like, okay, like we're ready to go. So then signed at the Cardinals, and that was 2023, yeah, January 2023. That's incredible.
SPEAKER_01:Then you go, it's basically a year, you're in the majors. What was the difference in terms of the mentality, the mindset, the approach that you didn't have three years prior? That you can take three years off and have a rapid climb to the MLB when you were a third-round pick, have immediate success, struggle, decide it's not for you, and then come back and all of a sudden you're a different person.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's some of like this whole per like the perspective stuff, the life stuff. Um and yeah, like all the all like the intangible stuff that I think that I like now possess. I don't think that I would have if I didn't go through like the process that I did to get to the major leagues. Like it's a very, very like unconventional road. I'm very aware of that. Like I didn't have like I quit, like I left. I spent years away from it. I thought about selling my gloves and my cleats and did most of that stuff. Um but I think it was just like like seeing what else was out there and knowing that that's not what I wanted and trying to figure out like what like what did I actually want out of stuff? I wanted to feel like I had a purpose doing something. I wanted to feel like I had like a reason to get up out of bed and be excited about what I was doing with my life. Like I didn't have that, like rolling out of bed, making a coffee, and going back upstairs to my computer and click clacking on my keyboard all day on like working for EY. Like that wasn't that wasn't what I wanted my life to look like. And I think like being able to take like complete like accountability of my life and control of it and like like re-grasp it was like a huge thing for me. And um like it not like I took baseball for granted before I ever stopped playing, but I don't think I treated it as like I don't think I treated it with like the utmost respect that it deserved um and like and what it represented in my life and the connections that I've made. Like obviously, like I'm on this podcast today because I met you 13 years ago. Like, baseball is an incredibly small community. It is it's unbelievable. Like I was home for Thanksgiving and with my girlfriend's family and saw a guy doing plyos at a local high school field and just like stopped and he saw me and I like talked for a second and I found out that he was like he knew like five of my teammates that I'd just played with this year, and it's just like baseball and like in random places that I've never been, like you meet people that you never knew you were going to meet. And it's just like baseball has such a big purpose, it's just a small community, but it's such there's so much you can do with it. And I knew that it's what I wanted to be around, it was what I had passion in, whether it was gonna be okay, I'm gonna give my best shot playing. And I didn't want to have regrets with the playing thing because I thought I'd I gave up baseball. Baseball didn't give me up, so I wanted to like go to the point where baseball gave me up, where I couldn't go anymore. And I think that was kind of like like I wanted to take ownership of that side of my life, and now I feel like going back to baseball with that perspective, with those tools in my um at my disposal, like it was gonna be a lot easier. It it felt like much I was much more capable of like taking on like the road to the show to be able to not just get there, to hopefully now stay there and have an impact at this level. So it's just like I don't know if I would have ever made it if I never played. I I I honestly don't think I would have. I think I would have fizzled out and I would just and I wouldn't have this experience.
SPEAKER_01:The importance is the no regrets piece, because for me, I like similar, we've similar stories, different outcomes. So I was in rookie minicamp with the Buffalo Bills, four days get cut, and I always like reference like a piece felt like a piece of me died that day, and I was in a way just ready to be done with football. My body was beat up, I was injured. That was the best football I'd actually ever played, and like I had gotten cut, and there were just like so many different things going through my mind, and I was like, I just like gotta go get a job. And then COVID happens. That season gets canceled. And probably like midway through COVID, I'm trying to remember like the exact time frame. Um I start training again. And I had gone through this period where I started to learn that my identity was fully wrapped in my sport and who I was. Was you know what I was doing. And I had to learn the process of separating the two and calling the person and calling the performer athlete. And as I began to educate and learn these concepts, I was like, you know, I really want to make another run back at football. I feel that now it's different. I'd be able to enjoy it more. I'd be able to go back and play and avoid being burnt out, regardless of how I felt. And so I'll never forget my first day back training. I had, and because I similar to you, stayed in shape. I had jumped a higher vertical, having not jumped a vertical in a year than when I did test on my pro day. And I was like, and I remember, you know, I got the guys I was training with were like, this can't be right. And I was like, yeah, I like the shift in mindset of who I was and how I approached it completely changed not only me as an athlete, but how far I could progress as an athlete. And so I go through this process, I get a workout with an XFL team, goes really well, transitions to, hey, gonna start getting a uh potential workout with NFL teams. At the time it was called Hub, H U B workouts. And so I'm a completely different athlete at this point, significantly better after taking time away not playing. My daughter's due to be born in a month. The two it was either the day before or two days before I'm scheduled to fly out to San Diego. I pull my hamstring. And for me, it was, it wasn't like a, I don't view it as like a sign, but for me, it was that regret piece had been fulfilled. And I was like, I've have proven everything to myself that I needed to prove. I have become an infinitely better athlete. I have trained with some guys who were pro bowlers in the NFL, and they did a phenomenal job of building, helping build conviction in myself as well, and just continuing to push me in the process. I was like, I have all the validation I need. My daughter's due to be born in a month. I was like, for the first time in my life, I felt okay, like leaving the game. And so I didn't get the outcome I wanted, but I proved to myself everything that I needed to in terms of what I believe my capabilities were, how far I believe I could have gone. And that's really all I ever needed. And even though I didn't get to go play in the NFL or play in a game, whether it was preseason or regular season, I without reasonable doubt have proven to myself anything that I needed to prove. I don't need to vocalize what I, you know, where I think I could have gone with it or what I think could have happened. But, you know, just everything internally was fulfilled. And it's I miss the game all the time still, but like there's no what-ifs. I have zero what-ifs the way I live my life. And that peace of mind can't be replaced.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, I really like that too. It's like the whole, yeah, like no regrets is something I like always told myself when I was training again. Like, hey, no matter what, like if you never get another job again, if something like you said, like, God forbid happens, like while you're training, and like, you know, arm arm starts to like really, really hurt, and like you might need to shut it down. Like, I didn't want to have those thoughts anymore. And um, I didn't want to wonder, like, where could this have taken me? I didn't want to be like in my mid-40s and just like think back on my 20s and be like, oh, like, man, like I should have, I should have like kept throwing them into that net. I could, I should have like reached out to my bunnies and like had them help me train and stuff like that. Um and I'm so and I'm obviously like so glad I did it. I'm like the same, like the same with you. Like, I'm so glad that I like re found that, like, rekindled that fire, like found that like desire to like continue to like find where the end of this is. Like, how far could this go? Like, get that, like get the self-validation you need to like I expanded everything I could, I did everything I could, and this is where it got me, and now I can like and now I can rest. And now I can be excited. And like, but I will say, like, my shift from that now is like my always thought was like, oh, let's see if I can get there one day, like like no regrets. Like, even if you don't get there, no regrets. Like now I feel like we make new goals, and like, okay, like now or what? Like, so I think that's but that's like the beauty of life too. It's like you can reach a goal, you can come up with some like you can come up with a goal that you think is like your life's mission or your purpose and stuff like that. And then it's I think it's maybe a caveat to sports too, or maybe not, but like reaching those things and like still having that like internal hunger and that to like go make new goals and go accomplish new things and like see where that can take you in like in all phases of life. And I think that's like an invaluable thing that like life forced me to learn. I didn't like just flip a switch one day, like the whole leaving baseball and being back against the wall, like forced to like do everything I needed to do the right way. Like it teaches it, like life teaches you, it's the best teacher there is.
SPEAKER_01:That tension between I achieved a goal, what's next, and you know, the if you've if you're familiar with the hedonic treadmill, it's the concept of never feeling enough no matter what you achieve. And sometimes achieving goals that what next question can feel really daunting. Because building anything, whether it's an athlete or achieving something or building a company, right? Whatever it is, going from zero to one is really hard. Once you achieve that one, it's like, well, what's next? And thinking about going from zero to one again is can feel daunting. But the beauty in the athletic field is like, okay, once I achieve something or something I've set out to achieve my whole life, once I achieve it, instead of it, and again, it has to be for the right reasons, but like the ambition of finding what's next is more about seeing how far I can push myself. How far can I ride this bike until the wheels fall off? And that is the more exciting part of ambition, as opposed to thinking like, okay, like I achieved this. This is my whole life mission, now what? It's more of okay, how far can I keep pushing this? What can I do next? How can I build upon the skill sets I've already built upon? And really, how long can I ride this? And I think that is the perspective shift that is required to continue to push in the upper echelon of sports or the higher levels that you go. It's less about what's next, more about how far can I keep pushing? What more can I learn about myself? What challenges can I can I truly work through and overcome? And that is to me the beauty of sports and the perspective that's necessary to keep going through those pillars without getting on that hedonic treadmill and putting your self-worth into what you're achieving.
SPEAKER_00:Right. No, I can play great.
SPEAKER_01:Now, what is your mindset and approach right now, speaking of this, as you head into this year, trying to be a big leaguer for all of, if not most of the year? What is your approach and mindset going into this year?
SPEAKER_02:So, like I hate that that's such a hard question because it's a good question.
SPEAKER_00:Like it's just like being able to get like 1% better and just take what you like as as good as a year as I felt that I had last year, there were still a lot of things that I was like, okay, Nick, like we really need to like share this stuff up and we really need to be better in these spots and stuff. And like obviously the Cardinals had things for me as well, like, hey, like we'd like to see you, you know. So your change of more in zone was a big one for them for me. Um it was a lot of like like trusting your best pitches in certain spots and don't feel like you have to just like go to a certain pitch because like that's what you know baseball tells you. Like, trust, like, trust what you do well. Don't feel like you have to do what like anybody else, like how you sequence how anyone else sequences, like you have to sequence how you sequence because it works for you. Um so I think like being able to trust my plan a little bit more and like trust the data behind it and like the results that it has gotten. Um I think that's really valuable, especially when like you talk about big league hitters and how incredible they are. They're the top, top of the entire world of baseball. Um, and yeah, like hitting is very difficult, but you know, they make it seem a little less difficult. So I think like being able to have those small little things where it's like I can exploit this weakness and I can really like go at this guy in this facet, and I don't have to do anything else but that, and he's gonna find like, and more often than not, he's shown a way to get himself out here. Like, I don't have to be fancy, I don't have to be cute and like throw a sweeper and then throw a sinker and then a changeup. Like, I can just go sweeper, sweeper, sweeper, and like that's gonna get him out more often than not. And I think like being stubborn and like wanting to show my arsenal and wanting to like overpower people and like throw pitches and like it just doesn't make sense. Like, so I think just having a better approach to knowing what's best for me, knowing and not necessarily always like what their weakness is, because I think when you always pitch to their weakness, you kind of can forget what you do really well. So I think like finding a good like relationship between like what are my really what are my strengths, what are their weaknesses, and finding a way to complement and like come up with a plan. So like I would say that's one. Another one for me is um learning how to just throw more frequently during the week. I think um being a bullpen guy and especially being in the big leagues, like you are called on at all times. And if like they ask you to go, like you're going. It's not, hey, I'm too sore, like I don't know, like I need another day. Like sometimes like they understand that. Like if you're throwing 50 pitches and then you threw 20 the next day or something like that, and it's like, hey, I need that third day. Like when I threw Monday and Tuesday, and then they kind of like came up to me on Wednesday and were like, hey, like, how do you feel today? And I was like, I don't feel like I'm I need a day. And they were like, you're not gonna throw three days in a row. But I think like being able to be available, like a lot of my training in the offseason now is like I throw three to four bullpen a week, like depending on like the stretch that I'm in here. Just like learning what it learning what it means to like throw it at like a like a decently medium high intensity and then shut it down for a day, and then up another day, shut it down for a day, and then go back to back days. Like, so learning like what that stress feels like, getting comfortable with that and being like being like almost like being not being comfortable, being uncomfortable, but just like knowing what it's like to like have to bounce back to be able to throw every day. Like we look at the playoffs this year, and we look at some of the World Series guys, like Yamamoto threw I forget what game, and then he's pitching in the bullpen, and then he's warming up in the bullpen the next night, and it's like what is like what in the world? Like, we don't see it happen in any other situation during the season. You don't see in the regular season, you never will. Like it's in the playoffs, but it's like these guys want to win, the teams want to win, there's a lot on the line. Like, those are the guys that are getting in there. Like the Blue Jays talked about Louis Varlin, like Louis Varlin through every single day. Like, these are just like it's the like the availability is the best ability. Like, um talk about guys get injured, guys, you know, things happen. Um but like being able to be available and being able to be there and be like, you know, expendable to your team at any time in any situation and knowing that you're going to get the job done, I think, is the things that I really and I obviously like everyone wants to get the job done, but like those are the things that like I want to be able to be prepared and feel ready every single day. Because there were definitely days where like I could not have thrown back to back and like I never had before, but I was never like really working on being able to do that because it was never really my role until it was.
SPEAKER_01:I appreciate you, man. I appreciate you coming on. It's uh good to catch up to, it's been a while. Um, but if people want to reach out to you, you know, where where can they find you if they want to pick it, pick your brain, get advice. Um, where can they get at you? And if you're working on anything, you know, what what are you working on other than baseball, of course?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, you can find me. Um, not much of a Twitter X guy. I have an account. I don't really use it. I'm more just like browse the news. I am on Instagram, um, just at Nick Rick, same as it is here, just all one word. Um, not like I'm not a huge poster, I don't do content and stuff, but if you want to reach out to me with any questions you have, any like anything I didn't touch on here today or whatever, like please reach out to me, DM me. Like, I don't check it religiously, but I will get back to you, I promise. Um yeah, like please reach out to me. Um happy to help in any way I can.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, I appreciate you, brother. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week, download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Five stars only, baby. Appreciate you, Nick. Absolutely. Thanks, Paul.