The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Formerly The Athletic Fortitude Show.... Colin Jonov’s Athletic Fortitude Show has rebranded to The Playbook with Colin Jonov, evolving from a sports-centric podcast to a universal guide for mastering life’s challenges. While retaining its foundation in mindset and performance excellence, the show now expands its scope to empower everyone—athletes, entrepreneurs, professionals, and beyond—to live life to its fullest potential
The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Steve Springer - How To Compete With Confidence When Everything Is Going Wrong
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Steve Springer and I dig into how to play “opening day every day” and why “I don’t give a crap mode” frees players from the weight of stats. The focus shifts to quality at-bats, team-first play, hunting speeds, and building confidence that survives 0-for-20 stretches and youth pressure.
• defining “I don’t give a crap mode” as team-first freedom
• opening day mindset that erases yesterday
• quality at-bats over batting average
• attainable daily goals for confidence
• hunting speeds and studying pitchers
• difference between swing and hitter
• toughness, calmness, and focus under stress
• youth burnout, parent pressure, and perspective
• defense and roles as equal value to hits
• analytics versus instincts in scouting
• belief coaching with stories of Pillar, Trumbo, Goldschmidt, Zobrist
Everything’s Quality At Bats — Twitter: @QualityAtBats — Email: qualityatbats@aol.com — qualityatbats.com — Coupon code MLB40:
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I don't give a crap mode. Talk to me about the dichotomy between caring and not caring and how you utilize that in your approach with baseball.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't give a crap mode. I like it. We're going right into that. Uh have you ever been so bad where you're like, man, I don't even care anymore? And then you start hitting, and then you start hitting, you start caring again. You know, so I I I coined the phrase, when playing, I don't give a crap mode. And when you play in, I don't give a crap mode. You play and I don't give a crap mode about me. This is not about me, it's about me helping my team. Those are two completely different players. And you're talking to a guy, bro, that was, you know, spent 14 years in the minor leagues, I spent 11 years, and you're gonna go through some funks. It's one of my lines when I speak. If you don't go one for 20 in this game ten times, you didn't play long enough. So we gotta learn how to play, and I don't give a crap mode about me, and we gotta learn how to play every single day like it's opening day. Right? Because nobody in the history of baseball has played opening day with no confidence because they got to know yes or they beating them up. So that's pretty much where I got that little phrase from. It's not about me, it's about me helping my team. And you get 25 confident guys playing like it's opening day. He said, That's brilliant. But what happens? Day number two shows up, and now I got stats, and now it's about me. It's a vicious cycle.
SPEAKER_00:How do you shift into that? I don't give a crap mode. I think about it in my own athletic experience because I typically find it's funny, and this comes up in baseball a lot, where one of my buddies pitched for the Marlins for a while, and he would talk about the best pitchers in the world do not care. But yet they care so much with their preparation, their attention to detail, their training, their recovery, but yet it's like they just don't care. And it's like, how do you get yourself in that the I don't care mindset, even though realistically you do care, you do want to win, you do want to perform well.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I think that, you know, when you change what you think success is, you know, in baseball, you know, you you know, I call it the biggest self-esteem destroying sport in the world. You know, I do everything right and go 0 for 4. I do nothing right and go 0 for 4, and now I'm supposed to compete with confidence. How do you do it? Well, I think I figured out how to do it. You play and I don't give a crap, Moon, you play every day like it's opening day. And you have fun. Somewhere along the line, Colin, we've turned this game into a three-hour timeout, like we're in trouble. If you like your abilities and your abilities aren't showing up, it's not your abilities' problem, it's what you're thinking. So I, you know, I figured it out trial and error. You know, I mean, it's like I said, I I can't spell psychology, you know, but I teach it, you know, and and we just got to get great at, you know, we when you fail so much in this game and everybody thinks, oh, baseball's a game of failure, well, Augie Gurrito taught me it's a game of opportunities. It's not a game of failure. So when you change what you think success is to get the confidence you play in every single day, I think it's just freedom and it's freedom from yourself. You know, I mean, i if this game wasn't about the mind, if this game wasn't about the approach, then shouldn't shouldn't every uh first round pick spend five, ten years in the big leagues? And they and some of them can't get out of A-ball, and guys like Kevin Pilar, who signed for a thousand bucks as a nice 10, 12-year career. You know, I mean, we just you just don't know in baseball on uh you know how how somebody's gonna handle five bat bats a day every day, whether you want them or not. And I just I just truly feel when you change what you think success is, hit the ball hard, you win, help your team win. You know, because in baseball, this isn't football. This isn't once a week. It's five at bats a day every day, whether you want them or not. So I figure I think once I figured that out, you know, when I when I you know I was the mental coach for the Toronto Blue Jays for eight years, and I had this one kid give him a million bucks, and he pops his first one for 20, and he's never gotten one for 20, and he walks back to the dugout like somebody stole his puppy, man, just like down and head down. And Tim Rain's my buddy, and I go, man, we better hope that's immaturity and not makeup, you know. And I'll bring the kid in the office. He thinks he wants to be the next Mike Trout. He just signed for a million dollars, he's 18 years old. And I said, Hey, buddy, if I if I told you that you could be a 25-year-old big leaguer and spend 10 years in the big leagues guaranteed deal or no deal. And he looks at me, and his initial thought is, no, I want to be 21-year-old. That's not the question. 25 years old guaranteed. He said, Yes. That's 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24. That's seven years that you're not playing in the big leagues. That's seven years for you to learn how to get great at being a better competitor than you are a player. Learn how to get great at uh being a better defender, being a better teammate, right? 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35. There's your 10 years. And you could just see the kid go, oh, thank you. You know, because we always think that we got to get three hits to have success. All the all his friends think she's gonna be, you know, uh the next Mike Trout. And I just, I just feel buddy, when you change what you think success is, and you think big picture, see, you know, too many of these parents and too many of these kids, they have their self in a in a microwave instead of an oven. They think it's all about right now at 13 years old. Like Vanderbilt's panicking when their 13-year-old has a bad weekend, you know, and it's just, I don't know. I'd like to say that I'm a lot of people's keep keep things in perspective, coach.
SPEAKER_00:With the keep things in perspective, what is it do you think that we get caught up in as an athlete where it's like we have to be good right now, we have to be good right now, we have to be good right now. And then how do we zoom out and look at a better picture of what success really is?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think it goes back to changing what you think success is. I think it's it goes back to thinking big picture, you know, and we just get so caught up in thinking it's about now. And and too many players in baseball let yesterday's bad day mindset play today. You know, I got a new game, new picture, new hero tonight, and most players can dictate how they feel on what they did last night. And that's great when you get two hits. Bring that guy in. But when you're in that one for 20, you're 0 for 4 and 0 for 8, you know, I think stats are the biggest trap in the game. I I believe that, you know, I do everything right and go 0 for 4, I do nothing right and go for four, and now I'm supposed to compete with confidence. I I believe when I when I go teach, the only stat that I want my players to care about the rest of their life is how many games in a row did they compete with confidence and have fun? That's it. It doesn't mean you get three hits, bro. It's nine against one. We think we got to get hit every time that if I'm a pitcher on tick top when you get a hit with those odds.
SPEAKER_00:How do you keep guys from looking at stats? Like, do you have like any method that helps these guys just stop looking at their own statistics and how they're doing?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, if they've never been approached with it, then they don't know any better. You know, I remember when my boss hired me from with for the Blue Jays to be their mental coach. He said, Spring, if you help one guy, you're worth your money. And I said, Tony, if I don't help a hundred, fire me. Because I'm not teaching get your hands here, get your feet here. I'm teaching you how to compete with confidence when the stuff isn't going right. You know, so I don't know. I mean, you know, everybody's like, oh, you can't teach toughness. I think you can. If the guy's never been approached with some how to be tough, I'm not talking about fight me tough. I'm talking about uh mentally tough, you know, because like I said, we're playing the biggest self-esteem destroying sport in the world. See, I always felt I had to hit 300 to play in the big legs. And I hit three balls right on the screws, right at somebody. I beat the pitcher, the pitcher knows I beat him, the pitcher's mom knows I beat him. My bad never just comes down like this. Excuse me, I think I failed. And now the wrong Steve Springer starts playing. Because everybody's got two players in them. I got a confident use is a good player, and I got a non-confident use socks. And he plays too much. And I don't know, man. I I I've been doing this for 25 years, man. I got a lot of my stuff from Clint Hurdle and Tommy McCraw and uh, you know, Dave Magadan, one of my teammates. I've run with Lenny Dijkstra, Billy Bean. You know, you learn from what to do and what not to do is almost just as important.
SPEAKER_00:What are some of the biggest not to do's that people don't talk about?
SPEAKER_01:Don't do well, uh, don't beat yourself up every day. Stop trying to hit the fastball curveball, slide up, change up with the uh-oh count, you know, when I start talking about approach. You know, I used to think that baseball was about the mind, the approach, and mechanics, all three important in that order. I've changed it. This is about the approach, the mind and mechanics in that order, because I don't care how confident you are. I don't care how good your mechanics are, if your approach sucks, you're gonna lose your confidence and your mechanics are gonna break down. So I'm into hunting speeds. Uh, is it easier to hit one pitch when you know it's coming or three and you don't? You know, if I told you here comes the fastballs 100%, and you can't put a good swing on it, then go play soccer. Like we got to be able to do that. But sometimes it's okay to sit off speed. Good hitters, there's a big difference, Call, between having a good swing and being a good hitter, trust me. You know, batting practice flips and teawork, it's checkers. We're all good at checkers, flips, and teawork. The chess game starts at seven. Can you play chess? Are you a baseball player? Do you have instincts to play the game? You know, because if you don't have instincts, it's hard enough to play in the big leagues with instincts. If you don't have them, probably not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00:What is your definition of success? Like what is the success mindset that each player should adapt that'll help them succeed in the long term?
SPEAKER_01:Attainable goals, daily goals. Uh, hit the ball hard, you win. Now I have a wristband that says compete with confidence in opening day every day. You know, like I said, nobody in the history of baseball has played opening day with no confidence. Why? Because they got no yesterday beating them up. And this is why you can learn how to play every day like it's opening day, and I don't give a crap mode about me. Trust me, there's freedom in that. I've seen it happen way too many times. And it goes back to the stats thing. You know, stats are stats are evil, stats are yesterday. You know, I mean, if if it was something, if we were playing a sport where I did everything right and it counted as success, then you then okay, I get it. But we're playing a game where I can do everything right and baseball says you suck. You know, when I hit three balls right on the screws as hard as I can hit it, and my bad narrative goes down, and that's what I think my success is, is what am I hitting? That's when I figured it out. Yeah, you know, and when you buy into that, you know, non-competent Steve Springer stopped playing in about 1989 when I figured that out. You know, time McCraw came in, and every time this guy's around, I was a stud. And but I'm a dummy, so I'd I'd carry it for three days. But as dumb as I was, I was smart enough to realize when that guy was around, I was good. And I went up to his room with the tape recorder, and he was nice enough to talk to me about me, and it changed my life. For 20 minutes, he talked about me on what I need to do to play in the big leagues. And it's I, if I was in my car for seven years, calling it was on. And it's the why I made my original audio. You know, I became an agent. Uh, don't ask why I did that, but I was an agent, and I wanted my players to get a metal game, right? And so I was in the car, and you know, the car door was open and ding-ding-ding, fastball right down the middle of something else, and I let my brother listen to it. And he's like, dude, that's good stuff, man. You know, you gotta clean that up. So I went into a recording studio and didn't even know what I had. I made 500 tapes and 500 CDs at the time. In 2001, I gave one to George Horton at Cal State Fullerton, Hall of Fame coach. I didn't even know he was gonna listen to it. And he had his whole team listen to it five hours before they played Miami in Miami, when Miami was the number one team in the country and they swept. And that's when I felt I had something when he told me. He's like, dude, you change the way we think. You know, and and now, you know, I've had major league all-stars call me. Excuse me, I've I've spoken to the top colleges in the country. I've spoken in front of 6,000 coaches three times. And it's basically the same thing, bro. I'm like Millie Vanilli, a one-hit winner. It's the same stuff every time. And I'll add a couple stories that, you know, I get, but I don't know, man. I I believe in what I teach, man.
SPEAKER_00:There's something that you talk about that I think is very relative to the to the hot hand fallacy, but the premise of it is positioning yourself for success with the right mindset, regardless of what's going on. So if you're two for two or four for four the day before, great. Carry that momentum into the next day. But if you were 0 for 4, 0 for 2, understanding, hey, I just may be going through a rough patch. If you zoom out and look at my success over the course of my career, then there's no such thing as a slump, right? I'm positioning myself with the right mindset, regardless of what happened the next day. I'm going to utilize it to my advantage. So if I go four for four, great. I'm I'm playing well. I have the memo, I'm going to keep playing well. If I go oh for four, hey, if I zoom out, there's no such thing as a hot hand fallacy. I am, or there's no such thing as a hot hand. If you zoom out, I'm a 300 hitter, 500 hitter, whatever it is. Okay, that slump right there, that stretch of games right there is just part of the time where I'm getting out. And then the next slate of games, I'm gonna get a hit because that's the type of player I am. And I think when you talk about carrying the confidence from being four for four into the next day, it's synonymous with that type of approach where it's regardless of whether I was 0 for 4 or 4 for 4, I'm gonna use those experiences and the experiences of me playing for a long period of time to position myself for success the next day.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I truly believe the word slump, it's yesterday. I got a new game, new pitcher, new hero tonight. Call it a funk if you want. But a slump is somebody that cares about their stats. And it's like I said, let's let's look at our stats at the end of the year when I get confident Steve Springer playing every single day. So my that's my whole thing. The only stat that I want you to care about is how many games in a row can you compete with confidence to help your team win the game today. Try and do that, right? This is when you know you get what I'm talking about when you're 0 for four at four strikeouts, and you look at that lineup in the ninth and you say, I need two guys to get on so I can be the hero. Instead of, oh crap, or two guys get in and I got hit again, because you make it about you. But when you make it about just the team and you make it about winning the game, it's just freedom from yourself. You know, I I one of my biggest pet peeps is somebody says, Oh, you have to have an even keel to play baseball. Right? You we all we all hear it. I know why, because your band average is going to go like this, up and down, up and down. But when you say I don't care what I hit anymore, why why wouldn't I want 100% kill every single day for three hours? And I'm not talking about a high heartbeat. I'm talking about a guy with focus for three hours, and my whole goal is to win the game. You know, I never minded being 0 for 4 in a game, as long as we are still in the game, and I had a chance to be the hero of my fifth at bat, because that's when heroes are made in the last at bat. I hated being 0 for 4 in a blowout. You know, and now I got to punch out against the backup right fielder. That's pitch. So I truly believe, but when you change what you think success is, there shouldn't be that many lows. I mean, we think we have a 25-man roster. Trust me, it's a 50. Because everybody's got two players in them. I got confident you, a good player, and I got non-confident you who sucks. And we don't know who's showing up, right? Let the other team play with the 50-man roster. This is the way, if I'm coaching, I'm looking for 25 confident players to show up today. And I've spoken to all the top colleges in the country, bro, and it's the same stuff, you know, and they all have ability. You know, I was in Austin, Texas, and Augie was there, excuse me, 2012, and I knew Tommy Nicholson. I said, Hey, you want me to speak to your team? He said, Spring, we need you at the beginning of the year because if we go 6-0, we don't make our conference championship. We came in ninth place already. He said, We're the only team that's not going to the conference championship. We might get fired. Augie Greenle might get fired, five-time national champion. He's like, he's not gonna pay you. I said, I'll do it for free. I want to meet Augie. Aug was like, what does it say? Bring him in. I could not have spoken better. Right? Same stuff we're talking about right now. I'm about ready to leave. And my buddy's like, Augie wants to see you again. So I go in there and he's like, okay, buddy, we're gonna pay you for that. And I want you in here next year for three days. I went in there next year for three days in September. The exact same team with freshmen, and then another person on it was one game away from the national championship. But the same exact team that just came in ninth place. Why? Did they get that much better physically? No, they got out of their own way. They bought into opening day every day. They bought into it's not about me, it's about me and my team. The whole slogan of the year was it's opening day, bro. Let's go. And I don't know. That's just one example.
SPEAKER_00:What do you do to help engineer that that confidence that enables them to go out and play with confidence, to play with opening day every day? How do you engineer that confidence in those guys?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think most people have never heard it before. You know, they they they because they think it's about stats, they think it's about hitting 300, they think it's about me. And I I've had people say, well, what if people don't agree with you? And I'm like, I haven't ran into that yet. Because what's the alternative? Oh, it's all about me. What am I hitting? What are they thinking? You know, oh, I did everything right and go 0 for 4. Oh, I suck. No, bro. Get great at lining out. Good good hitters line out more, right? The better hitter you are, the more you more lineouts you have. When I was at the Blue Jays, I talked them in and spent a lot of money on Best Buy gift cards. We had three winners per week per team, wherever the most quality at bats got a gift card. And we had one guy go one for 20 and he won a card. Like, how's that happen? You got one hit, he got a couple bunts down, got a couple runners over from second to third, helped the team, but no beyond, and he had seven balls right on the screws, right at somebody.
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_01:12 for 20 is going to get you a card. And that guy's name was Kevin Pillar. Right. And the next time you guys think you're getting hosed out there, this guy had a 54-game hitting streak as a junior in college and did not get drafted. Which is baffling to me because you don't look into 54. There should have been 50 scouts fired. The Blue Jays took him in the 32nd round, gave him$1,000 as a senior, and he was the second guy in his draft to get to the Bedwigs because he was a better competitor than he was a player. Right? We had an annual award, whoever had the most quality at bats, big check and a nice Max Bat trophy. And our double-A guy, David Cooper, had more quality at bats than anybody, and he had 245. But he had 20 bombs and he had 80 RBI, so he had damage. And his favorite quote in what I teach is good hitters line out more. That made so much sense to this guy. He took the same approach into AAA the next year, Colin, and won a batting title at 365. See, but when we think that the batting average is our number one stat, trust me, I'm trying to help you hit your highest batting average. Right? Everybody's like, oh, spring, the batting average is a trap. Yeah, because I know what it does to you mentally. You know, when you go over four and do everything right, and you think you have to hit 300. I could tell if you could hit way what your batting average is. Because the batting average has no brain. There's not a confident batting average stat and a non-confident batting average stat's one stat has no brain, does not know who's showing up. But I could tell if you get hit by what your hit batting average is.
SPEAKER_00:With a guy like Kevin Pilar, I think there's a lot of examples in baseball, and you articulated it earlier. The first round picks who can't get out of single A, the first round picks who never make it to the majors, and you have guys like Kevin Pilar who do make it, play 10 years. What makes baseball in particular so hard to scout when it comes to the development and long-term outlook of success in baseball?
SPEAKER_01:Well, when you're scouting it, obviously you want the trifecta and you barely see it, barely see it. It's he did it, he was doing it, and you saw it, you know. And so it's really hard. You know, I knew Kevin Pilar the first time I saw him uh with the Blue Jays. He was, he gets it. You know, he gets it, but there's something about going over four where you lose your memory, right? Kevin Pillar had my audio CD when he was in eighth grade. He had me come speak to his college. So when we drafted him, he was pretty happy. We sent him to Bluefield. And remember, in pro baseball, it's five at bats a day every day, whether you want them or not. Well, Kevin starts off two for four over the wire. Three for four, two for four, five at bats a day, four at five at bats a day, oh for five, oh for five for four. And he calls me and I knew he was gonna call me. I'm what's up, buddy, how are you? He's like, I said, How you doing? He's like, I'm scuffling. I said, Were you trying to get hits? He said, Yeah, no. I said, No. I said, be the best competitor on the field with an attainable goal, hit the ball hard and help your team when get rid of your stats, right? Almost scolding him because I knew he knew what I was talking about. And he told the official score. I don't want to see my battery numbers on the board the rest of the year. Some little intern. He's like, all right, whatever. You end up leading the league and hitting. Right? Because you see, uh I don't know, man. I I just truly believe that stats, stats are yesterday and stats make you feel. And now I'm playing that game, you know. It's like, you know, it's like when when I was at the the Diamondbacks, excuse me, and we'd have workouts, you know, and you're gonna get tricked by BP. You know, I could hit BP right now, you know, but it's like I said, that BP flips and and and T-Works checkers, the chess game starts at seven. Can you play both sides of the of the ball? Do you have instincts to play the game? You know, and when you talk about scouting, yeah, you want to see it. Nothing, I'm telling you, I've been in some meetings with some big, big baseball guys, big time, ex GM. And, you know, we're going over players, and I hear the guy go, Well, when I saw him, he struck out eight out of ten times. I'm like, really? But when you weren't there, he hit 25 home runs. So let's put the whole picture in place, you know. And, you know, a lot of times I want to see how you fail. You know, I remember one time I was an amateur scout and I was there to see one player. And the number nine hole hitter hit a home run. He was the only guy that didn't get off the bench and shake his hand. I ain't putting my name on that guy. You know, it comes down to makeup too. You know, when I talk about calmness, toughness, and focus, the number one thing that you better have to play this game is you better be tough. And I'm not talking about fight me tough, bro. I'm talking about mentally tough. Because too many players are playing this game with tension, anxiety, and pressure instead of calmness, toughness, focus, having fun. It's one of my lines when I speak. You want to play with tension, anxiety, and pressure, bro? Go join the military when you're 18. Because that's where that's at, God bless them. We're playing baseball, nobody's in trouble. And it's like I said, somewhere along the line, Colin, we've turned this into a three-hour timeout for these kids. And I'm talking about, you know, I'll get emails from parents. Little, my little guy's got no mental game. I'm like, oh, how old is he? He's like, well, he's 10. I'm like, he's got no physical game. He's 10. Let's talk about developing. But we're also, you know, got to win at all costs. And I want to win just as bad as everybody, but I'm not going to win a 12U game, you know, and now my kids got Tommy John to win the Burger King Championship.
SPEAKER_00:It's, you know, I think about the youth sport experience right now. It's it's something that's pretty disheartening, right? Because it you are teaching eight-year-old, 10-year-old, 12-year-old kids that if they lose or they go for four or they struggle, that they're not worth anything. And kids are getting burnt out at such an early age, specialization of playing, lack of playing multiple sports, lack of going outside and just having free play, playing fun. I always ask, like, what how is it reversible? Can we fix it? How is there enough movement to go around that gets people to stop thinking it's MLB or bust and start building more robust individuals? Because one of my favorite stats, talking about stats, right, is if you were to ask most parents, is your kid more likely to become a billionaire or play professional baseball? They'll say play professional baseball. Well, the reality is there's over 3,000 billionaires in the world, and in the MLB, there's, I think, half of that. So you are twice as more likely at birth to become a billionaire than an MLB baseball player. And yet every parent thinks that their kid is going to be a professional athlete. And it's not that simple. There are a number of different varieties of factors in that play in, excuse me. People have a really hard time accepting that and they take the wrong approach with young kids, creating that pressure and anxiety at a young age.
SPEAKER_01:Well, too many kids quit this game at 13 years old. I promise you that, because of the pressure that's put on them by the one who loves them the most, that's parents, and Johnny Testosterone coach yelling at my 10-year-old who I'm in Burger King Championship. And now the kid doesn't even want to play anymore. You know, and the parents like, what happened? I'm like, I know what happened. You're a freaking whack job. That's what happened. You know, now the kid quits at 13, and then he wants to play again at 17, and he just lost four years of instincts to play the game. Because I promise you, if you don't have above average instincts, then stop dreaming about playing in the big leagues, right? And what are instincts? Instincts are the ability to dictate what's going to happen before it happens. That's what instincts are. But it's like I said, man, I shot a two-minute video on why kids quit at 13, this topic, and it got viewed and shared on Facebook 3.4 million times in three days. It went viral. Because we all want our kid to be the next Mike Trout, but so did I. But it just, like you said, it doesn't happen. You know, and you don't want your kid quitting at 13 with his little kid body before he gets his man body. Like you're talking to a guy that was 4, 11, 90 pounds when I went into high school. I got three at bats. When I was a senior, I was five, eight, 140 pounds. I didn't start. My brother went to Golden West Junior College. He was all state. I'm the best player in the state. I go out for the team and I get cut, which is baffling how bad the coach thought I sucked. I get a job at Disneyland working on the canoes, thinking it's over. And my brother comes home with the uniform because three guys quit. So I'm 19 years old, freshman in college. I get three at bats the whole year, never played. And I end up playing in the big legs. But can you imagine if I would have quit? Because some coach said I'm not good enough. You know, I grow four inches when I'm 20. Now I'm six foot 100. You know, I always had instincts to play, but I needed some body strength and working on those canoes, bro. I got stronger.
SPEAKER_00:I think that there's a lot to be said for guys who don't have immediate success in finding a way to fight through, continue playing, and then developing that resilience, that mental toughness that you talk about as they progress through. It's very rare, there are examples, that you have childhood prodigies that end up matching their mental with their physical as they grow and mature. And my fear for really talented young athletes is they're not getting accustomed to that challenge. And they're not getting accustomed to that failure. Like you said, you love watching guys fail. I fall on that same lens because without, you know, with reasonable, you know, awareness, you can tell whether or not someone's talented enough to play at a certain level. But how are they going to experience failure to me is a much higher predictor of long-term success than seeing you go and dominate a level that you should dominate at. And the ability to rebound or bounce back up from those failures. And when you are scouting guys or when you're working with guys who are in your organization, how do you orchestrate or architect that bounce back, that resilience, the ability to face challenges, opportunity?
SPEAKER_01:It's like I said earlier, man. We we're playing baseball. It's nine against one. We think we got to get hit to have success. And I just truly believe when you change what you think success is in this game, you know, you hit the ball hard, you win, you help your team win, knowing that you're playing this game another 10 years. I've had some big major league all-stars call me. I remember Mark Trumbull calling me, and he's in a little 0 for 8 funk. And I say, but let me give you a little tip. Your kids, kids, kids will never have to work if they don't want to, if you don't want them to, you know? And then that night he hits a bomb. You know, it was just a matter of, you know, A.J. Paulett called me his whole career, you know, and and uh love him like my son, you know, and then he could give my spiel. And I remember one time he texted me, he said, Spring, it's been a tough two weeks, but I will line out five times tonight, because that's what I tell these guys to do. See if you line out five times. Good hitters line out more. Puts you in an aggressive mindset. I know what he meant, but what he really said was he's still thinking about the last two weeks being tough. I'm like, really, buddy? Last two weeks being tough. I got a new game, new pitcher, new hero tonight, and you're playing this game a couple more years, and we're worried about the last two weeks. He was almost embarrassed. Hey, you're right, Spring, my bad. I'll line out five times tonight. I get a text from after the game. He said, My bad, Spring, I only line out once. He went four for five with the bomb and two doubles. Like, what's gonna be a tough three weeks? But it goes back to what we're thinking, you know, and that's I truly believe that's what Augie Greetos says his favorite quote he's ever heard a code say. If you get 25 guys playing, and I don't give a crap moat about me, and you get 25 guys playing every day like it's opening day. Remember opening day when you guys played? When you played, 100% comedy, right? Of course. And then what happened? The excitement to be there. Then day number two shows up. And now it's about changes. Because I got stats over four. Now I'm over two. Now my mind I'm over six, and I'm letting yesterday's bad day play tonight. And that is the trap of baseball, it's the trap of life, bro.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, parallel that I like to use in in football is each play that happens, right, is usually anywhere between two seconds to seven seconds. And so even if I have five, six, seven straight bad plays or an entire game, the maximum amount of time I've actually run a play on a field is five minutes. And so if I have a bad game, am I really gonna let five minutes of a bad game dictate the type of person and player I am? And when you zoom out, have that perspective of does five minutes determine my career? No, it doesn't. And understanding, right, where when you zoom out and you look at things from a different perspective or a different lens, it helps create that rationalization that, like you said, this isn't that serious. That failure really isn't that big of a failure. That mistake isn't that big of a mistake. Sure, some of them might carry a little bit more weight on you, depending on when it happens and what the situation is. You know, striking out in a game seven World Series is probably going to weigh a little bit more than striking out in the 50th game of the regular season. But the point still remains true that that short period of time does not dictate who you are as an athlete.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I was a legend in the wrong league, bro. I spent 11 years in AAA. So you're playing 142 games in 160 days. You know, when you really put that in perspective, Ben, you know, you're playing 30 games in a row. There's gonna be some tough times. There's gonna be some great times. But it just goes back to for me, changing what you think success is. Hit the ball hard, you win, play good defense, right? If you can't be at least a tick above average defender, stop dreaming about playing in the big leagues. You know, if you go 0 for 4 and make a web gem in center field with a base load, save three runs, for me, that's one for five with three RBIs. Now it's the same exact effect as a three-run double. You know, Kevin Pilar, his first couple call-ups, he hit under 200. Why do you get the third? Because he's a goal glove center fielder. So, you know, when you're talking about baseball and you're talking about every day and you're talking about changing what you think success is to win the game. See, we don't we don't play to win the game the whole season, most teams. They played them, they played to win the game in the playoffs. Like when's the last time you seen Schwarber trying to drag butt with two strikes? Because he knew that if he got on, they were down by two. I get why he did it, but don't never do that during the season. But when you want to play to win the game, see, this is the problem with baseball for me right now, is we're teaching power over hittability, or we're teaching strikeouts over ground balls. And I'm telling you, the better hitter you become, the more your power is gonna play. We're teaching power to guys that aren't gonna hit 10 home runs in their in their uh career, let alone a season. You know, I see it all the time. These first-round draft picks that could fly, and then you see them the next year, and they put on 20 pounds of muscle trying to hit home runs and they lost their speed. So you got to know what type of player that you are.
SPEAKER_00:The player that comes to mind when you said, now he did have an awesome career, and he's actually one of my favorite players ever was like Justin Upton. Like when he was young, now I don't know if you got a chance to work with him, but he was lean, fast, and then by the time his career was over, he was a little bit bigger. And that happens with a lot of guys in baseball. And I guess my my question around that is is what is what is driving that thought process in theory as opposed to remaining athletic and just becoming a good hitter?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know why my door just opened. Sorry about that. Uh I believe it's probably analytics. I believe that we all think everybody should be a power hitter. You know, everybody should have home runs. We're teaching, like I said, we're teaching power hit ability. Like, really, I don't want to, you know, uh bases loaded with nobody out or runners on first and second. You don't think I I want a ground ball to get a double play? Why do I got to strike everybody out? You know, Kirk Sarlos, who's the head coach at TCU, I was his agent his whole career. And this guy won 30 games in the big leagues because he could make a ball go like that. Because he could throw that two Seymour and get a ground ball. I watched every one of his starts, bro. It was mind-blowing how many ground balls this guy got. And I don't know. Well, now we're teaching up in the zone. I've I scout every night for the Oakland A's right now. I've been with them for six years, right? You got to pick your roommates right out. I was in Billy Bean's wedding. And so when I need that job, he came through for me. Uh but I see these guys throwing 94 to 97 with plus sync. 3-2, slider, slider, slider. We're pitching for strikeouts, we're not pitching for outs. I probably got to be get get over it, you know. I mean, we're in such a dig me era right now. You know, I mean, some little nine-hole hitters hitting a bucket, and he slaps a single, now he's pounding his chest, kissing the sky, doing this to the dugout, you know. Crazy. Bugs me.
SPEAKER_00:Now, do you find yourself operating in isolation in this belief, or are there more people who operate like you than what people would expect? Because I tend to lean towards your way. And, you know, I've had a number of conversations with Clint Hurdle as well, and I feel like we're losing the human element in sports. The more we add data, the more we add analytics, which I do believe is a useful tool, but it's not the whole story. And are you kind of in isolation, or are there more people who operate in under your belief system?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it doesn't seem like it, but you know, I'm with Clint. I mean, I I'm I'm not old school, I'm not new school, I'm in school, you know, whatever he says. And I'm sure analytics is uh uh a big part of it, but it's not in the one hole for me. Because if it was in the one hole, shouldn't every team be great? Because they have the same computer, they got the same data. It still comes down to coaching and and scouting and getting guys to compete every day, I believe. You know, and uh, you know, the data that I would want is what's this guy throwing certain counts. Right? I'm a huge believer in sitting on speeds, man. I think if you're trying to hit the fastball, curveball, slide up, change up with an oh count, you're basically two-strike hitting the whole at bat. Because I don't have to swing. And Clint said as good as he could say it on MLB radio one time. I was listening, he says really, really hard at 94 and 79 at the same time. And I agree. I did it. But uh, you know, this goes back to my favorite line. Is it easier to hit one pitch when you know it's coming than three and you don't? How come we could all hit the breaking ball machine in the cage and it turns invisible during the game? Because we know it's coming in the cage, right? And this is the whole thing. This is why I watch the pitcher. A video on a pitcher two weeks ago is great. Watching every pitch he makes tonight is ten times better. I want to know he's got working tonight. I don't have five at bats a day anymore. I got twenty-seven minimum. Because I'm I'm studying that pitcher. I'm watching the the pitcher's the test. He's gonna give you the cliff notes to what he has working tonight if you watch the game. If a guy in front of me just smoked a fastball for a double, trust me, bro, I'm sitting off speed because now he's got to earn run on the line. He just got smoked on his fastball. How do you hit a breaking ball? You look for. You zone up and you load late, take a fastball swing.
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_01:My whole goal sitting off speed is take a fastball swing on off-speed speed. And and, you know, zone up and load late. I knew the plate was right in front of me in my mind, I'd bring it back by the catcher. Because I'm not timing 97, I'm timing 80, 81, 82 to take a fastball swing.
SPEAKER_00:When you sit back and reflect over your own career, being that leap bloomer, being the guy that was 4'11, 90 pounds as a freshman, and then finding yourself lasting 11 years, you know, in AAA, you know, getting caught up to the majors. What was it about your experience that made you different than most people that quit when they're 4'11, 90 pounds and get cut?
SPEAKER_01:Well, one, I thought I was a pretty good player. Like when I was 9, 10, 11, 12, I was an all-star. I was in the majors at nine. I just did not grow an inch from the time I was 12 to 15. And, you know, when I grew four inches and 20, I went from a second string, second basement to an all-conference shortstop, and I had a full ride to UCLA. And it was the greatest five days of my life until he looked at my transcripts. I was a dumbass, I couldn't get in. And I ended up going to uh University of Utah, and I had 50 scouts in the stand to see Rick Aguilera, Wally Jonah, and Corey Snyder, and I went five for five with the bomb, two doubles of five RBIs. The scout never heard of me. And I get drafted by the Mets in the 20th round, and like you said, I mean, how do you spend 11 years in AAA? Well, I knew the alternative, getting a real job. I didn't want to do that. And I felt I was good enough to play up there. You know, I feel I should add at least five years in the big leagues. But it's just like Billy Beans go to my website. He said, Spring, if you knew this at 18 instead of learning it at 30, people might know who you are. Thanks, buddy. But he's right. But he's right. You know, I learned it. I feel God put me in AAA for 11 years to do exactly what I'm doing right now. Right? Because whether I'm talking to you, whether I'm talking to the dad of a 10-year-old or top college in the country or major gossip, my message is the same. And it's how do I compete with confidence when the stuff isn't going, right? Is what I teach. We're all good and we're good. How about when you're one for 20? You the same player? You got the same mindset showing up that day? And if you, you know, is it easier said than done? Absolutely. Can it be done? I guarantee it. I spoke at University of Notre Dame one time. They set me up something that night for the community, and all of a sudden the girls' softball team shows up. University of Notre Dame girls' softball. And I'm like, okay, hitting's hitting, you know, keep it clean. And I go, I talk, couldn't have spoken better. About two, three months later, I talked to the coach. I said, How do you guys do this year? She's like, You don't know. I was almost embarrassed. I'm like, no, what happened? She's like, the word batting ever wasn't said the whole year. We had a full-on quality at bat chart, and we led the nation in hitting. I'm like, that is so awesome. So it's going, you know, we always talk about going through the process, go through the process to get results. It's no true, it's so true in baseball. You got to go through the process, man. And I believe I truly believe when you change what you think success is, it really, really helps. You know, I believe that if somebody makes you good, get something on audio with them. Because, like I said, that we give ourselves too much credit to remember what we're taught. You know, I give you my whole spiel today, come back in two weeks. What'd I say? No, something about the bad and average and marrying an athlete, so your kid might be a big layer. That's what they remember. That's how I end my street. If you uh, you know, not everybody's gonna be a big layer, but when you go to college, you get that education, you marry an athlete, bro. If you tell a girl a ball and she fumbles it, you pass. Thinking about your kid.
SPEAKER_00:Part of your story is you weren't the best learner growing up, but yet you can articulate baseball in a very fluent way. And what is it do you think about your learning process where you weren't the best academian, but you became, and you even told me off air, hey, other than baseball, you know, I'm a dumbass, right? Well, it's you know, what is it about baseball and about learning that enabled you to take such a strong understanding of the game and be able to speak about it?
SPEAKER_01:I'm blessed to do it, man. I love it, man. You know, you're not gonna trick me with a question unless you ask me a chemistry question. You know, I mean, uh I've been in the game for my whole life. I started playing when I was eight. I've been in pro baseball for 43, 44 years. You know, I've been blessed. I've met so many good people. I mean, when you break that down, I don't start in high school, I get cut in college. I room with Mike Piazzan and Winter Ball, I, you know, Billy Bean, Moneyball, you know. It's just been awesome. You know, I just saw Tony Clark, you know, the president of the association. He was my teammate. He was 19 years old in 94. I was 34 on my way out, and he gave Me the biggest hug. He said, Dude, I never even thanked you for pouring into me on how to watch the game, how to watch speeds, how to sit on speeds. It was, you know, I didn't even know he was paying attention. You know, I mean, just don't know. I was at a Christian retreat with my wife, all minor league, major league baseball players and their wives called PAO. I'm in a seven-man group. I don't know anybody. 10 o'clock at night. I said, My name's Steve Springer. I'm the mental coach at the Blue Jays. And I see this 20-year-old kid just smile. I'm like, you got my stuff, don't you, buddy? He's like, I can't believe you're here. He said, I can't wait until I tell my brother-in-law. He's going to flip. I said, Who's your brother-in-law? I said, Ben's Obrist. I go, Ben's got it? MVP of the Cubs World Series? He's like, bro, wait till he finds out you're here. And I'm like, yeah, he owes me 20 bucks, bro. I want to see him too. That means he legal. I'm kidding. Sort of. And I meet Ben that night. He gives me the biggest hug I've ever had. He said, dude, when I heard your CD, it changed my life because non-confident Ben stopped playing that night. He was 25 years old in double-A, beating himself up, non-confident Ben, not wanting the fifth at bat. And two years later was an all-star because he said, I don't care anymore. He wouldn't, I don't give a crap load anymore.
SPEAKER_00:It's funny, a lot of the guys that you're mentioning, I know every single player, you know, being a fan of the game and watching these players and knowing their skill sets and you know what they achieved in the game is it's just really cool to see that parallel and connection. When you look at some of these guys who are the best, what is the breakdown between physical talent and the mental, the mindset and the mental approach? Because, like you said, if it was just physical talent or just analytics, everybody and every team would be good. So if you were to put a weight on it, what's the weight that you think is physical talent versus approach?
SPEAKER_01:Well, everybody says baseball is 90% mental, then why do we work on it less than 10% of the time? We're always working on our swing. There's such a big difference between having a good swing and being a good hitter. I'll take a guy with the average swing and a great mindset and approach over a guy with the most beautiful swing with no approach. You know, we gotta learn how to watch the game when we're not hitting. We gotta, you know, I when I go speak, I tell these players, you want to be a big leader the next time you watch a game on TV, stop watching it like you're a fan and start watching it like you're gonna get an at-bat, like you're in the on-deck circle. You know, because now we're studying for the test, like I talked about earlier. You know, we we gotta get great at watching the game when we're not hitting. You know, it goes back. Is it easier to hit one pitch when you know it's coming or three and you don't? So it there's a lot of the mental side. I don't care how talented you are, I don't care how good your BP is, if your approach sucks, you're gonna lose your confidence. And and all of a sudden, you know, you're gonna be hitting about a buck ninety and people are gonna be going, oh no. I and I don't mean it boastfully. I feel I could help a lot of people. I feel I could help anybody. If they've never heard about how to do this opening day thing, how to do this, I don't give a crap mode about me thing, how to learn how to hunt speeds, how to learn how to sit on pitches, then we don't know if they could do it yet. I just I feel like it help. I mean, I love what I teach, I believe in what I teach, I don't mean to sound boastful, but I got too many stories, too many examples. Me myself, you know. I mean, once I said I don't care what I hit, I still hit between 260 and 290, but my production doubled. I went from four to eight home runs a year, now I got 1670. And 40, 50 RV guys, now I got 70, 80. Because non-confident Steve Springer stopped playing. He wanted the fifth at bat every single day. You know, why do I want the fifth at bat? One, you're gonna get probably 100 of them a year, and two, that's when heroes are made, man. Want the fifth. Mark Trumbow called me his whole career. I met him, I was uh with Hank Conger, and I knew Hank, and I they're both in double A. I said, hey man, let's uh I go to Hank, you want to go to go to lunch? Yeah, so we go to Olive Garden. Trumbow shows up, wants a free lunch from me, right? He doesn't say two words. I'm thinking the guy, the guy's an idiot, right? Didn't say two words. Well, the next year I get a text from, he said, Spring, couldn't get you out of my mind, want the fifth at bat, two run, double, walk off, believe it. And that's when I knew Trumbo was in. He probably called me once or twice a week his whole career. And I never asked him to get three hits. I asked him to be the best competitor on the field with an attainable goal hit the ball hard team in every day that you play. You know, Paul Goldsmith called me his whole career. Paul Goldsmith, MVP, 35 years old, right? Him and A.J. Pollock are best friends. And if you look it up, Goldsmith hit eight home runs this first September. Well, this his uh first year as a rookie in April, I was hitting 180 with two, but I'd rather get sent down. And Pollock's like, dude, call this guy. He's a good guy. I get a call from Goldsmith. I don't even know what he looks like. I said, bro, your career starts tonight when you say I don't care what I hit. I can't have a goal where I could do everything right and go 0 for 4. He was like 1 for 20 at the time. I said, if you go three for four tonight, the media still says you suck, because now you're four for twenty five. And I said, two things are gonna happen if you're not the best uh competitor on the field tonight. He said, What? I said, one, you have zero chance of being the best player on the field. I said, two, you're cheating your teammates because they need the right goal smit playing tonight mentally. And I went on for like 20 seconds and he stopped me. He said, Spring, hold on. He said, You knocked me on my butt 20 seconds ago. I said, What? So he said, I'm cheating my teammates. I don't like that feeling. I'm like, then don't do it. Be the best competitor on the field tonight, dude. We don't have to work on this. It's a choice. Well, thank God he got two hits, right? Now he's texting, hey, Spring, what do you got, babe? He started a 17-game hitting streak that night with eight home runs. Because he said, I don't care anymore.
SPEAKER_00:Because is it just like a is it a switch that you just like flip or like even for yourself? How did you go from being non-confident Steve Springer to all of a sudden, hey, I'm just the best competitor on the field. I want that fit that bad. I want the pressure moment. Like, did you, was it just something that clicked? Was it an aha moment, or was it a string of events that got you to this mindset?
SPEAKER_01:You know what? It goes back to how we opened this whole thing, buddy. You you you as I you I went into, I don't care more. I don't care anymore. Because you care too much about the wrong stuff, which made the non-confident guy play too much. No. Goldsmith wins the MVP. I shoot him a text. I said, buddy, congratulations. This should have been your third MVP. Because you had two years, the dime backsburden app, their team sucked. He shoots me a text back, Spring. I don't win this award without you and my life and the conversations that we've had over the last 10 years. I cried. I was a little sensitive, right? I'm expecting a thanks, bud. Hope you're well. But when but when you're talking about these stories, and now these guys have great careers, trust me, I don't take credit for all their career. Do I take a little bit? Yeah, probably, because they told me. But it's like they they probably would have been big leaguers before. But if you have somebody in your life that's gonna help you, especially in a game like this, you know, where you do everything right and go 0 for 4 and do nothing right and go 0 for 4, you know, you got that one guy that, you know, it's like I said, I I want to be a belief coach. I'm gonna make you believe that you're good. And it's a great story. Don Wakamatsu asked Eric Chavez, he said, Who's your favorite coach? He didn't even flinch. I said Ron Washington, who was one of my favorite coaches. Him and Clint were my coaches in 1992 when I finally got caught up with the mess. And then Walk goes, Well, why was he so good? And Chavez, he said, Chavez is just like thinking for like 10 seconds, nothing. And then he just blurted out, I don't know, man. He just made me believe I was good. So you want to be a belief coach, is what we call it in somebody's life, and make them believe that they're good.
SPEAKER_00:All these stories, if you could pick one that's your favorite from where it started to where it ended, what's your favorite story?
SPEAKER_01:I think my favorite story was the Ben Zober story. You know, I'm at a Christian retreat, they're for God, you know, and I meet Ben, and then I gave him my new CD. And I think the next morning we're at breakfast and I apologized to him. I'm like, bro, I'm sorry, man. I didn't mean to wear you out last night, man. We're here for God. And uh he looked at me and he said, bro, we went up at midnight and listed your new CD. We almost called you. You know, that's I mean, that's one of my ones. I mean, me getting my first call-up with the Cleveland Indies, I got traded from the Mets. I ended up re-signing with Mets and getting up with them. But, you know, when you're told you're whole, well, you're too small, you're only because your brother, you'll never play in college, you'll never play pro, you'll never get to the big leagues, now all-stars call me. Negative people suck, bro. Right? And I get that first call-up, and it was it was awesome. And then I I re-signed with the Mets and I finally get called up, and Dwight Gooden's there, who I signed with, and he's like, Spring, what took so long? I'm like, man, they didn't want to rush me like they rushed you, bro. That's awesome, man. Great guy, great teammate. No, and and it, you know, when you talk about everybody talks about what you miss when you're done playing. You miss your buddies, man. You miss the relationships in a dugout with the coaches, you know. Even when I was the mental coach for the Blue Jays for eight years, it's almost like you're a player because you're in the clubhouse and you know, you form relationships with these kids. And uh, you know, I I like good people, man. You know, uh, we'll get some kids that get released, and I'm like, hey, I'm in your life, bro, forever. If you need anything, you give me a call, and they know they could call me.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome, man. That's really cool. I appreciate you coming on. If people want to reach out to you, they want to see some of your work. Where can people find you?
SPEAKER_01:Everything's quality at bats. Twitter, quality at bats, at quality at bats. Email is quality at bats at AOL. You know, I speak all over the country. Quality at bats.com, you get everything that I made. Uh coupon code MLB40. Everything I made for 40 bucks. It's the biggest snowbriner, man. I mean, we're we're spending a hundred bucks on a half an hour flip session, and you're gonna need everything that I made, including my book, Springtime. Uh, hopefully soon to be a movie. Like, I signed a contract with Pinet Films. Uh, we're going baseball version of Rudy. Heck yeah, let's do it. Apparently, it takes time. It's like four years, and I swear it's gonna happen one day. I'm like, can I get a little urgency, please? My wife and her new guy to be spending my stuff and I'm dead. Let's go. But it's gonna get everything's quality at bad. So I stole that from Clint. He gave me permission.
SPEAKER_00:There you go. I appreciate it, man. And thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Uh, tune in next week. Check us out at athletic42.com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel, download the pod. Five stars only big. Thank you, Steve.