Most People Use Their Past as an Excuse. The Best Ones Use It as a Blueprint. | Dr. Mitch Abrams

Dr. Mitch Abrams and I challenge the one size fits all story about divorce and child development, then get specific about what actually hurts kids and what helps them adapt. We also connect divorce dynamics to sports culture, showing how money, time demands, and maturity shape marriages and parenting in high pressure lives. 

• children’s resilience and why age still matters 
• why “amicable” divorces can confuse kids 
• keeping adult conflict out of kids’ earshot 
• putting children’s needs ahead of parental emotions 
• co parenting communication as a safety issue 
• custody time tradeoffs and bonding with both parents 
• why court involvement can be brutal for children 
• money incentives that can distort custody fights 
• what drives resilience: genetics, mentors, coaches, peers, extended family 
• why athletes and coaches face higher divorce risk 
• discipline, accountability, and guardrails that protect marriage 
• storytelling and personal narratives as a tool for growth 

The easiest way to get in touch with Mitch is his website, www.drmitchabrams.com. 

Mitch released a book, i’m not fucking angry, adjust the flame to get what you want and need. Available on Amazon. 

Check us out, athleticfortitude.com. Download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Five stars only, baby. 

Transcript

What Kids Misunderstand About Divorce

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What do people misunderstand about the impact divorce has on young children?

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Two things. One, children are tremendously resilient, should not underestimate their ability to adjust to difficult situations, although the younger they are, the more challenging it is. And every case is different. One of the biggest problems I think people have is that they think there's a one-size-fits-all approach. And it all has to do with how children's environment changes, how the parents maintain their roles as parents, what kind of bonding there was ahead of time, how much expressed emotion and tension there is in their environment day to day. So there's a lot of factors that go into things. And so the mistake that I think people make is people give advice of what should be done or shouldn't be done without understanding all the circumstances that are involved.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

What is like the what is the best way to handle divorce? Because I know, at least from research, that a healthy divorce is better than a terrible marriage, particularly for children development. My question more so is, is there a better way to do it or what is the healthy way to do it?

Defining A Healthy Divorce

SPEAKER_00 1:09

That is so nuanced of a question.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

I'm not sure I'll be able to answer it effectively. Carefully, intentionally, mindfully. You know, it's interesting because there are some cases that when it's an amicable divorce and everyone will go, that was great the way they did that. It confuses the shit out of the kids. Kids actually do better when they see that there's some tension in their home, and then the tension is relieved post-divorce, versus everything is fine, and now you're living with mommy and daddy in different houses on different days. And so I think the simple answer, if there is one, is keeping the children first, being mindful of what their developmental level is and their needs are, being sensitive to it, try to keep as much out of the children's earshot as possible because very often they get pulled into adult matters that they're not prepared to understand. But especially when it's a high conflict uh divorce, you want that to be done as quickly and seamlessly with as little likelihood of casualties of war as possible. The more vitriol that's there, the more likely the children are going to be stuck in the middle. So I don't think there's a simple answer to what's the best way to do it. It really has to be tailored to the circumstances of what's going on in the home.

When A Calm Split Feels Worse

SPEAKER_00 2:36

What is it about the, you know, if a child sees that there are some tension versus if everything seems to be okay, but then their parents divorce, why is that have a negative impact as opposed to them seeing, you know, the tension at home?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

It doesn't have to have a negative impact. I'm saying sometimes sometimes it does. The idea is, and there are some people who have argued that if you're going to divorce, try to wait until the kid is six or seven years old. That's presuming that that's feasible. The idea behind that logic is that as you get closer to grade school, the child is their personality has been more developed, their object relations are more stable, they understand their views of the world. And so they're a little bit more resilient and insulated. I think the argument or the concerns about when parents are not fighting is children first off, children don't ask to be born, right? They're just bored into this circumstance. And if they have even good enough basic nurturing, they have these fantasies that mommy's the queen and daddy's the king, and I'm living in a castle, and then all of a sudden your rug was pulled out from under you, and that could be very unsettling. It leads the child to wonder if anything they understood about the world is true. Versus if there's conflict and it's painful, most people can relate to wanting the tension go away. Now, it is also worth noting that the only way any married couple avoids fighting at all is if they don't listen to one another, right? So arguing is ubiquitous. It's it's it's normal. The question is how. And so you don't want to imagine the picture of the child, you know, covering their ears, closing their eyes, crying and screaming, running to their bedroom because they're so overwhelmed by the things that mommy's saying to daddy or daddy's saying uh to mommy. We don't want children to be casualties of war. But marriage is hard. And divorce is hard too. I think that too often people consider divorce almost like a retroactive method of birth control. If I if I don't like a marriage, I'll just get divorced. And so what that can lead to is sometimes people won't put the work in in order to try to save the marriage, understanding that there's a lot of work that has to go into a healthy marriage under the best set of circumstances. So I think we've evolved or devolved into an environment where divorce is an expected part of life. And I certainly think that it's a reasonable option for people. There's a lot of research that shows if you take children and you ask them, would you rather be with mommy and daddy being miserable and together or separate and happy, they'll pick option two. Except the younger they go, the less likely they are to do that because they don't see it that way. They just see it as my world is being pulled apart. So it's a difficult question. I don't think there's a single right way to do it, but divorce is something that people are considering sooner and sooner. And the vitriol and the venom, it becomes horrible for everyone. And that's why I always say, you know, parents don't get divorced, families get divorced. It affects everybody, but in different

Living With Divorce Long Term

SPEAKER_01 5:50

ways.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

This is a challenging conversation for me because I am very like against divorce in my own life. And I agree with a lot of the studies that come out. Divorce is bad for kids. Naturally, all that makes sense to me. But the other side of me is like, I don't like the doom and gloom painting of the picture because in anecdotally it's not fair, but I look at my own life. By every measure, my parents divorced in the wrong way. And they don't have an amical relationship, amicable relationship right now. And, you know, sorry if they're, you know, if they're listening to this, um, I'll sure I'll have those conversations later. But, you know, I turned out like okay. And, you know, and I would say by most estimations, I turned out more than okay. And I want that to be more of the story, not that I'm encouraging divorce, because my life is still hard with divorced families, and I'm 30 years old, right? It that it doesn't end in every holiday, every birthday, every hangout session. It's you're getting pulled 20 different directions, and you want to make sure you're doing right by everybody, and everybody feels love and attended to in a simple mistake or something, you know, you know, flees your mind, and it feels intentional to the receiving party when it's not at all. It's just you're moving in a million different ways. I'm raising my own family, you know, and so there's this constant stress and pull throughout the rest of your life from a divorced family. So inherently, I agree, don't get divorced. But on the other side, for people who are going through it, you know, particularly the children, the, you know, young adults, kids in middle school, high school, it doesn't have to be doom and gloom, or that it's your fault, or that, you know, you can't overcome, or that it's unsurmountable. It's you, you know, there's a certain process that that is required from it, but you can, by all measures, regardless of circumstance, find your way out of it and make your own, you know, life out of it. And so like that's why it's like it's such a challenging. That's why I'm excited to have this conversation because it's it's a conversation I don't have publicly a lot because I don't want my parents or those involved to feel slighted or shamed or whatever it is, just to give young people that may be going through it, you know, a side of it to know, like, hey, it's it can be okay. And particularly if if you take control of certain aspects in your own life, harder the younger you are, obviously. But as you grow and mature, there's ways that you can handle it yourself.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

I think your perspective is a very important one. I think the reason why people do the doom and gloom thing is because if anybody says anything's good about divorce, people are afraid that that'll promote divorce. That's like saying, uh, let's not give uh kids condoms because they're gonna have sex when they're eight years old. It's just I don't, I I don't, I don't think that that that mindset works. The truth is, is that there is life after divorce.

Quiet Perks And Hard Truths

SPEAKER_01 8:40

There's no, first off, look, there's no way that you're going to be married for any period of time and then get divorced, and it's going to be easy. It is going to be hard. It's going to have hardships. The kids are going to have hardships also. But not only is there life after divorce, there's actually a couple of quiet little perks that nobody wants to talk about. Like for let the, let's just deal with the most basic thing. If this person annoys the shit out of you and you only have to talk to them about the child, well, guess what? A lot of your stress just went away. The other thing also is that when the child or children are with the other parent, you have the opportunity to recharge your battery that you normally wouldn't if you were together. And parents that are able to recharge their batteries and do things that bring them pleasure tend to be happier. And then it can lead to them leaning into being a better mom or a better dad because they're in a better mood. So there's definitely cause for optimism if this marriage was so filled with vitriol. I think the thing that people don't often particularly understand, because it requires a certain amount of maturity. And maturity is not reliably predicted by chronological age. So, you know, get that out of your head. But the thing is, is that once you become a parent, it requires someone else being more important than you. And not all people are equipped to do that, especially when they have the children. And if they don't learn to put the child first, then how much more difficult is divorce going to be? Because then when divorce happens, it's not going to be I have to protect my son or my daughter from the hatred that we have between us. It's I have to protect myself and the child will be okay. You know, I've heard people say sometimes, if it weren't for my daughter or my son, and my ex-wife got run over by a bus, I'd be okay with that. And there's something wise about that. Meaning you could own the fact that you're not happy with your ex-wife or your ex-husband because of the things that they've done. But I also would not have these children if not for that person. You'd have different children. And so if you love your children, at the very least, you have to at least remember that you wouldn't have them because of the other parent. And if for no other reason, that can take just a little bit of the hatred off, a little of the edge off, and so that we can work together to co-parent for the best interest of the child. And what happens is that so there are times that I've been involved in divorces where people say, well, it was kind of amicable, but we just don't talk to one another. We just text each other what's going on with the kids. And I would say that's better than fighting. But if parents don't have good communication regarding what's going on with the kids, invariably the kids will wind up being exposed to danger. And the reason is normal child development says split mom against dad, split dad against mom. Hey, mom, can I go to the mall? Dad said it's okay if it's okay with you. Hey, dad, can I go to the mall? Mom said it's okay if it's okay with you. And guess what happens if mom and dad don't say, hey, did Colin say that he was going to the mall? Colin walks off to the mall and maybe finds himself in the middle of danger that he wasn't expecting. And mom and dad have no clue what's going on. So even if there's a lack of favorable emotion towards the other parent, it's important to learn how to co-parent together. And the other thing is, you know, you were talking about your situation. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't comment on the fact that you you're an outlier in a lot of ways, Collins. I mean, there are some people that you can drop in boiling water and they'll find a way to swim out. And that's not to just, you know, blow smoke up your butt because I'm a friend of yours and I respect you. I think that there's a lot of kids that have a lot of strengths and find their way out. But let's not forget, there are single parents, single moms, and single dads who do amazing jobs. Everything says that the kid should be, you know, juvenile delinquent, addicted to drugs, this, that, or the other, and they wind up being straight A students, high achieving, sometimes very athletic. And so there's just not one simple formula that predicts what will lead children to fail and what will lead children to succeed. But I do think that if we are all doom and gloom, then we're gonna be walking around anxious, constantly waiting for the sky to fall. Instead of investing in the child saying, I believe in you. I know that I haven't always given you the best set of circumstances, but I got your back. And when you fall down and the world treats you like shit, we're gonna pick you back up, we're gonna brush you off, and you're gonna go back out there because your mom and dad love you no matter what. I can't say how much that empowers a child. And similarly, there are some children that never hear that. So even though that's the best set of circumstances, it's certainly not the only path to success. Because if that was the case, you wouldn't hear about all these people that have had everything stacked up against them and they wound up succeeding anyway. It's the reason why I don't know if you've heard of the ACES studies, the adverse child experiences studies. Basically, they lined up all of these different risk factors, you know, poverty, low socioeconomic strategy, drugs in the home, all of these different things. And no surprise, the more you add them up, the more you're at risk for having dis troubles as you develop. But they never really were able to capture all the people that were very successful despite all that. And there's also some reason to believe that people that have everything handed to them are at greater risk for deviant behavior too. So, you know, as soon as you think you have it all figured out, we change the questions.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

People don't speak enough in nuance, and I try to approach my life in less of definitives and more of if I do this, it increases my probability of success and whatever success of the domain is. And I think about scenarios like this, divorce, which are hard conversations, because I don't know if there is right answers, but is there like a step-by-step process to increase the probability of healthy child development? Or how would you recommend, you know, in your sessions when you work with people, how do you put your kid in position for success?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

There isn't a simple answer nor a simple algorithm. I think the easiest way that I think about it, it's a little outdated because you remember in the old days when everyone used to have a wallet-sized picture of their kid? We don't have that anymore. We have it on our phone. I very often will ask parents, whether I'm whether I'm doing a custody evaluation, whether I'm doing couples therapy, anybody who's dealing with divorce, I ask them to pick up a picture of their kids and keep it like in their lap as they're talking so that they don't lose track of what matters. I think that that's the big issue. People try to tout themselves. I don't know many people that say, I'm a bad mom or I'm a bad dad. They sometimes regret some of the things that they've done. But I don't know that it's honest to say that I've always had my children's best interests as the North Star, as the guiding point. And by the way, it's impossible to do so. But like you were saying, the more we can focus on that, the better. But what we're talking about is not about giving the kid what he need, uh what he wants, it's about giving what he needs. And that means consistency. Knowing that if I do this, mom's gonna say that. If I scrape my knee, mom's gonna see if I'm okay and put some medicine on it and give me a kiss on my head, and everything will be fine. Or if if I had a bad day at school, my dad's gonna be notice it, be emotionally aware, and try to support me. And so the simplest answer is don't forget that the kid is a kid. And knowing where they are developmentally and taking care of all of their needs and most of what their wants. It doesn't mean that mom's needs and mom's wants have to go by the wayside, same thing for dad. But the child does not have any choice, especially the younger they are. They don't have the ability to be self-sufficient. So it sounds so simple and very hard to do, by the way, but keep the child's needs as the priority, not your own.

Custody Time And Bonding

SPEAKER_00 16:57

So, in regards to the child's need, when we talk about like separation of parents, we talk about co-parenting. What happens from a custody standpoint? What is there a healthier mix of like how it's balanced? Is it primarily living with one parent? Is it, you know, split 50-50? What is the healthier way to do that? Because sometimes, you know, you you read certain things or hear certain things that 50-50 actually makes a kid feel like they're a possession and they're not fully loved or whatever the case may be. Is there a better way to approach custody?

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Well, every every argument you could make about it has a counter-argument. It's also important to understand how times have changed with regards to perspective on this. There used to be the tender years doctrine, which was the idea that children, especially the younger they are, the more likely they need to be with mom more than dad. And this was the idea that moms were capable of nurturing in ways that dads weren't. Now, obviously, if you're breastfeeding, dad's going to be at a disadvantage unless mom expresses the milk, right? Right. So that does affect things. But what we do know most reliably is that children do best when they have happy, healthy relationships with both parents. And in response to the tender years doctrine, was the move towards 50-50 parenting time, with the assumption being that it is just as important for the child to bond with dad and spend time with dad as it is with mom. And I believe that very strongly. But there's also other real-world factors. What about when both mom and dad both work full-time? And the truth of the matter is the kid is spending time with a nanny when both mommy and daddy are at work. Does it matter so much? Changes things. To what degree or extended family involved? Changes things. But in general, I don't think that the relationship a child has with his dad or her dad is any less important in any way than their relationship with their mom. Yes, there's basic nurturance issues when they're very, very young, especially if breastfeeding. But there are certain things that girls tend to go to their moms for that they don't generally go to their dads. You have daughters. Aren't you looking forward to her coming to you and talking about her first period? I knew that's where you were gonna go. We're not talking about, you know, she went to middle school and it's first period at seven o'clock. No. We're talking about monarchy, the onset of menstruation. Now, there's nothing shameful about having your period. It's not even, you know, people have always in society said, oh, it's dirty. Yeah, okay, it's messy, it's inconvenient, it's confusing if they have no previous discussions about it. But usually girls prefer talking to moms about those things. That's perfectly fine if that's where a mom wants to go. But it's also perfectly fine if she finds herself starting to menstruate at dad's house that she's able to say, hey, dad, listen, uh, I know we haven't really spoken about this much, but I've gotten my period in the past and I don't have anything here. Can we go to the store and get something? That's beautiful. That's and it's perfectly fine on both sides. It's fine if a girl wants to talk about something with mom more than dad. Listen, there are times the girls prefer to talk to their dads about boys than moms. Sometimes they absolutely don't want to because they're afraid to dad, boys, bad. Put them away. Don't talk to me for 20 years. But and that one ends up not being a good relationship for the daughter either. You want them to be able to come talk to dad. And similarly, there are things that dad boys are more likely to go to their dads for. You know, they they start to go through puberty and their body's changing and they see things changing and they don't know what to do with it. They're more likely to talk to dad instead of mom. Now, does it mean it's always that way? No. Does it mean it has to be that way? No. But when both parents are actively involved and have healthy relationships with the children, two is better than one. Even if they are not together. And so people find their ways. Fun times ahead. But and this is the thing that people I think forget. Even when married, these are difficult circumstances. You know, dads thinking about their daughters dating. Uh-uh. Moms thinking about their sons going away to college and worrying about are they going to eat okay? You know, these are normal developmental struggles that happen in married couples. The difference is that in those situations, the husband can support the wife and the wife can support the the husband. And I think the bigger risk is when there's divorce and either parent has no support around them, whether it's a new partner or family helping guide them through tough

Keeping Kids Out Of Court

SPEAKER_01 21:58

times.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I look back over Like the course of my life. The hardest thing, you know, I can't speak for my other siblings, but the the hardest thing for me was always um the custody hearings and having to go and speak to the judge and do these different things at a really young age. Right. And that was always the hardest part. And I know when you know parents love their kids and you know, they want time. And like, is there an easier way to negotiate these types of things? Because, like I said, it that is above all else, that was always the hardest. Going to court, spending days talking with judges, talking about both parents, talking about our home. And like, you know, I'm young, you know, I'm between six and ten years old, having to talk about my life with some old judge. And it's, you know, it's that was the hard part. Like if I think of like all the like the everything that I have come from being a divorced kid, that was the hardest is the court, the custody hearings.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Well, the the age that we start to ask children their preferences more directly is around 12 or 13 years old. Before that, the likelihood of the child having the emotional maturity to be able to understand the gravity of the questions is low. And I'm sorry that you you were in that situation because if a child is asked to pick a mom versus a dad, there's almost no version of that question that the kid wins. And children often wind up being seen as bargaining chips. There is another way, but it's an expensive way. It's called custody evaluation, best interest evaluation. And in those evaluations, the evaluator is interviewing a child without saying who do you like better, mom or dad? Right? It's more a matter of what are the great things that mom does? What are the things that are difficult for you with mom? What are your best memories? What are your worst memories? When you get in trouble, because every kid gets in trouble, how does mommy handle that? What are the things that mommy is the best person in the world to help you with? What are the things that you absolutely wouldn't go to mommy for? And the same types of questions with dad, because it's not a matter of mom is all good, dad is all bad. It's about understanding to what degree the child's being met. The child's needs are being met. Does the child have special needs, special issues that the parents need to be on top of? But the thing is, these best interest evaluations are also very expensive. You know, you're talking about tens of thousands of dollars because it's a lot of hours to be done right. The advantage of that is it's not a judge who's not a psychologist asking questions that may or may not move the needle at all. It's a very difficult position for a child to be in. There's no way that you can answer those questions correctly. Because by doing so, whatever the outcome is, there's the risk that the other parent is going to feel like you talk bad about them. Now your relationship with that parent just got worse. But I think there's another piece to this puzzle that nobody wants to talk about out loud, but it's real.

Money Incentives In Custody Fights

SPEAKER_01 25:12

There's also this funny thing. I've often said to you that if you want to understand what's going on in the world, don't count on morality, follow the dollar. There's a relationship between the number of overnights a parent has and the child support that they get or they pay. And so there are times that parents in both directions will either try to act like they're more interested in spending more time with the child so that they can pay less child support. And there's other times that a parent may slander the other parent in order to try to get more time in order to gain child support. And listen, there's no doubt about it. If you have a married couple and they separate, it's going to be harder to support two financial households.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I think you know I'm like reliving my like life in my head right now. And, you know, my parents, I have no memory of like my parents together. So if I mess up time frames, I apologize. So to my parents, I'm apologizing. They divorced when I was low. They at least separated when I was like two. You know, by four, I believe, they were fully divorced. You mentioned having a kid with disability. My older brother's Down syndrome. Um they, you know, parents moved. So we lived in Pittsburgh, my dad moved to across the country. You know, it just feels like they did everything wrong. But, you know, all of us kids like turned out okay. And I think of all the different things, you know, that you're saying, and, you know, part of it is like, I just want to know, like, why are we, for the most part, you know, perfectly fine. I think one thing, too, that I do a better job of, and my sister will probably listen to this, so sorry, Jillian. I do a better job than the rest of my siblings applying like nuance to the situation and understanding that growing up, we didn't have complete information. We didn't know everything that was going on. There were things behind both doors. We get one side of the story from another, another side from the other partner, and there's likely some type of gray. And, you know, the more I get involved in this space too, I understand that we don't always make the best decisions, right? We feel a certain way, and that justification of that feeling causes us to make a decision that we believe is okay. When in reality, if you took a more neutral approach, you would have made a different decision. But what you can understand when you're the kid, though, is the types of pains that your parents are going through and they have to make those decisions. And as I get older and as I mature and I understand, is like, you know, everybody had to make decisions, but there were consequences, both good and bad consequences of the decisions that were made. And so as I get older and I learn more and I hear more about the situation, you know, I'm able to take a much more neutral stance. And sure, I wouldn't have made certain decisions that my mom made. I wouldn't have made certain decisions that my dad made, and I apply that in my own life now with my wife and my kids and how I live my life. But, you know, I think I do a much better job of that than my siblings. And by all measures, I have really good relationships with both my parents. I can't say this, same can't be said for my other siblings, but there's so much that goes on, and can kids bear that weight of

Why Some Kids Thrive Anyway

SPEAKER_00 28:32

that truth? Or is that something that's better kept behind closed doors and you kind of just see the outcomes and the ramifications of what goes on?

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Aren't you the answer to that question? But that's the answer is yes, kids can. Do you think it's a coincidence that you were successful in sports?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

No, I don't think it's a coincidence.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

So, you know, a lot of decisions people make are not conscious decisions, but we do have choices, and that's where we become empowered in how we're going to handle this. One of the things we talk to athletes about all the time, right, is control the controllables. Be where your feet are. It's kind of the same thing with dealing with divorced parents. Do the best you can with the information that you have and find a way to be successful. And whether someone whispered in your hey, Colin, this is a real way, good way to do it, or you developed it on your own, there's no doubt that the child that is able to observe and accept that there's consequences, both good and bad, for everything they do. I mean, look, there are times people make the worst decision and things turn out fine. And there's times that people make great decisions and things fall flat on their face. The world is very predictable in some ways and unpredictable in others. But it's, I think a lot of it has to do with how well we deal with the hand that we're dealt. And so the answer is of course people can do well even when they have horrible things happen to them. The question is whether or not we want to be honest about it. And that requires pulling back some prejudices, our projections, our expectations. You know, we've talked about this a lot. When your household is torn apart and your parents aren't giving you all the things you need or making the best decision, it would be easy for you to hear that as well, you're screwed. You're fucked. Sorry, bro. Bad things happened to you, not my fault, but it's still your problem. And we have a decision to make, and it's very hard for young children to do this without support, but some kids have that type of moxie. There's few things that are more powerful than when someone tells you you can't, and your response is, oh yeah? Watch me. It's rare. These days, it's rare that you have someone who had everything handed to them and it worked out well. That happens sometimes, but it's much, much, much more common that people find ways to adapt. And the reason for that is the more you're able to adapt, the more you're able to adjust to more difficult environments. So you'll have the rich kid that's got, you know, supportive parents on the outside, and really they're, you know, they're on the verge of divorce, they're alcoholics and they're cheating on their each other. And the outside very much does not match with what's going on behind closed doors. That kid might do perfectly well until he or she gets to a level that the competition's real high. And then you're gonna see who's gonna adapt and who's not. The ones that adapt the best are the ones that have that in their core. I will find a way. And so sometimes that adversity prepares you for dealing with difficult things. And truth, some people also crumble when they deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

What is the difference between someone who's experienced the same situation, you know, as me? And again, I'm not painting myself as some like super ultra world achiever. I'm not Elon Musk over here, okay? But like relatively speaking, I believe in you. Thank you. But, you know, relatively speaking, right? Like by all measures, by all statistics, all data, I should be, you know, have broken relationships. I should be, I should lack resilience, I should not have financial wealth, I should have all these different things. And for the most part, I have a great relationship with my wife. You know, I have a great relationship with my kids. Being a dad's the most important thing in the world to me. I do have, you know, financial wealth. By most measures, now I would say I'm, you know, I'm pretty confident saying I'm a resilient human being. And someone who may have experienced the same things, but then became a number and became a statistics of why we don't get divorced. You know, what like what is the tangible difference? And it's an impossible question to answer, but because there's not a pure formula for it.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

And there are things that go into it that are subtle that the average person wouldn't see. I mean, look, some of it is genetics. Genetics have a lot to do with your hardiness. However, you could have the best genetics in the world, and you could be in an environment that makes it very difficult to ever actualize it. Times it's having the right mentor in the right moment. Someone, I'm not getting the support I need at home, but someone comes in and says, Hey, I got your back. Having just one person in your corner can make all the difference in the world. It's one of the reasons, you know, we've talked a lot about the dangers of coaches and coaches abusing kids and bad things happening, but not enough people talk about how many times coaches save kids' lives. Just one adult being there consistently, helping you grow, showing you how to do things, it matters. The traumatic bonding that sometimes goes on amongst children that are going through this divorce, the support of the peer group, whether or not you have enough social skills to get other people to validate you. You know, there's a lot of we call that the ghosts in the machine, right? The things in between the computer code that somehow have impact on our life. Random things, the right teacher, the right time. I remember I had my parents were not divorced. And in and I was growing up in Starr City, where it was federally subsidized. And so a lot of parents were getting divorced on paper so that it would look like there's a single mom and their rent would go down and then they couldn't survive. And my parents were probably the poorest in the group, and they didn't do it because it was important to them. But I remember I was like in second grade, and I still remember Mrs. Goldson, a very scary black woman, was my teacher. And everybody was terrified of her. I loved her. I loved her because I knew she would not put up with my shit. And she got, because I was, I was a little bit of a class clown. I was also, I was, I got good grades, but she would say, Yeah, no surprise. But she would not tolerate me underachieving. Whereas interestingly, my parents, I was identified as gifted when I was like in first grade or something, and they and I was offered to be sent to a different school. And my parents said, uh, we're more interested in Mitch being a kid than a student. And they did not let me go to the other school. They were more interested in me playing sports and having fun and making friends. And that was really important. But there was a risk that I'd be like, fuck that, I'm never gonna take anything seriously because I'm just being a kid. Ms. Goldston said, I don't think so. You you have places you can go in life. And I remember how strict she was, and everyone hated her. And I acted like I hated her, but I loved her because she provided structure. Coaches do this. And so it's so hard, Colin, because there's not one algorithm. But I do think it's seeking support in other ways. Nancy Boyd Franklin is um, I don't even know if she's still alive. She she wrote Black Families in Therapy, and she talked about how one of their ways that that black families to the age strung, even when there was a single-parent household, was because of the extended family, the grandmother that everybody knew not to mess with, um, the church family, and how that provided more support and a loving environment, if even if you weren't kidding at home. So I think the thing is, is that there is not one formula. Children that are neglected are in a much worse situation than those that are abused. And when children get even the minimal amount of attention and guidance and support, even if it's not from their parents, it reminds them of their value and gives them the courage to go chase greatness. And some people pick up that baton and run that race, and other people just accept the circumstances as

Athletes And Coaches At Divorce Risk

SPEAKER_01 37:14

immutable.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Do you think athletes have a greater risk of getting divorced given their situation of wealth and time commitment and things of that nature? Absolutely. There's tell me more.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Well, I mean, look, let's start with this basic thing called money. Which now let's also remember that not all sports professional athletes make the same amount of money, right? UNBA is finally getting their salaries over over a million. Imagine that, right? But but let's just say that the average professional athlete between endorsements and and salaries doing much better than the average person. Well, that also gives you the means to spend money on your vices if you have them. And and now with NIL, you don't have to wait to be a pro to have a whole lot of money. I mean, I've often joked if you gave me a million dollars when I was, you know, 21 years old, I wouldn't be responsible. Granted, a million dollars was worth a lot more when I was 21 than we get these things, right? Um says Larry Byrd and Magic Johnson. But now, NIL, these college kids, 18, 19 years old with millions of dollars in their bank account, how does that promote responsibility? How does it not promote hedonism and chasing the pleasure principle? Chasing pleasure is not compatible with commitment to a marriage. Marriage requires maturity and sacrifice and commitment and time. I mean, if we're going to talk about being an athlete, let's expand it even bigger. Athletes, coaches. The time commitment makes it very, very hard on the spouse. So, and that doesn't even touch the culture. That there are a lot of professional athletes that say, when I'm home, I'm married. When I'm on the road, I'm not. That's part of the culture. That's terrible. It's the truth. And you'll have some, you know, weathered vets that will try to say, hey, man, you got this wrong. Or don't get married until you're ready to get married. If you're married, be committed to it. Be the man that your wife deserves, be the man that you're the father that your children deserve. And I'm not saying that this isn't an issue for women. It's just that the women millionaires are smaller in number than the men millionaires. But, and then let's take a look at where you are, besides the fact that there are people that will act like they're married when they're home and when they're on the road, they're not. What about the fact that spouse and children have to relocate wherever you go? So, I mean, and and by the way, on average, the athlete salary, when you get to D1 sports and then professional sports, the average salary is higher than the average coaches. Okay? So now you have college coaches that are making a fraction, most of them, of what some of their athletes are making. But in order to get where they want to go with their career, they're gonna have to move to the next best opportunity. That's gonna uproot the the spouse and the kids. And I'm not saying it's impossible, and I'm not saying that making a lot of money doesn't offset some of those stressors, but it's stressful. And and nobody wants to talk about how hard that is, and to what end. When are you done moving? Well, for some coaches, it's when I can call my own ticket and where I can set my roots and off we go. But there are so many stressors in being an athlete and being a coach that make it very difficult to maintain a healthy marriage. And so that does put them at greater risk. Is it impossible? Absolutely not. And I also think whoever's marrying these folks should really have some informed consent. Meaning, you know, what is my life gonna be like? What am I getting myself into? But that's true if you're marrying a police officer, also. You know, every day your wife goes to work, you don't know if she's gonna come home. And so this is why getting married too young and not knowing who you are puts you at a significant disadvantage to get a marriage off on the right foot and for it to last the long haul. Because it's hard under the best set of circumstances. I I also believe that you know athletes tend to be a confident bunch. They have to be. Because if you don't believe in you, how why should anyone else? Well, unfortunately, one of the places that that develops is from the time you're identified as being physically gifted, everybody starts to give you a different set of rules. So it's not just the athletes' fault when they become spoiled. It's society's fault. You know, all of a sudden, 15-year-old uh freshman that's getting attention from all of the local high school coaches, he's suddenly better for your daughter to date than the average kid. Or it's okay, Colin, you didn't bring in your homework, I'm still gonna give you an A. They start getting a different set of rules and then they start to believe it. In fact, narcissism is a natural consequence of chronic winning. If I beat you and I beat you and I beat you, I eventually think I'm better than everyone else. And then you give me a different set of rules. Of course, I get pulled over by the cops. Don't you know who I am? This is why it's so important to have accountability, good parenting, good coaching, discipline, accountability. You know, these things have to be at the core. That's what stops the athlete from becoming uh a narcissistic monster. And that's why I think the people that have the best trajectory are the athletes that have a good balance of confidence and humility. You know, I work real hard on my craft. I'm always gonna put the work in. A lot of yes ma'ams and yes sirs. You know, how you interview and the combine is not, it's not hard to teach, but it's hard to be when everything around you says the world is your oyster. Well, guess what? Now you're one of, you know, the the funnel thins out to her. And if I'm gonna invest millions of dollars in someone, I wanna have the kid that I think has his feet on the ground, he's gonna put the work in, loves the sport, and is not going to be a constant headline and a distraction. But that's another thing that you see in sports. The more talented you are, the more people give you more and more strikes. Every time you screw up. And guess what that sets up? Yeah, I got caught cheating twice, but it was only twice. Shouldn't you forgive me? I mean, it is so bad that when a guy, an athlete, gets caught cheating on his wife for like the fourth time, at some point you have to start asking the wife why she's enabling him. Why are you tolerating this? Are you putting up with it because of the lifestyle you have? And how does it affect your self-esteem? If you have expectations of how you expect your wife to act, or if you have expectations of how your husband should act, then that needs to be a conversation. And not enough of this happens. I think that also the more money is involved, the more people feel expendable. And if people are expendable, then why is it so important to be loyal to a spouse? I'll just get another one.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Can

Narcissism Accountability And Therapy

SPEAKER_00 44:50

you reverse that narcissism?

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Yes, but it's real hard. The easier and the earlier you get them, the easier it is.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

So what structures then need to be in place to like I think about all the different parts of being a professional athlete or being a high-level coach, the moving around, the money, the narcissism. Like what structures need to fundamentally be in place when you get married to your spouse that's gonna protect you from divorce and that will inevitably, you know, give your kid a better life as well. Hold that question for one second.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Let's do that question in one second. Let me first do this. You ask the question, can it be reversed? And the answer is it depends on whether or not they're truly narcissistic or they engage in what we call compensatory narcissism. Compensatory narcissism is when you know you have weaknesses, but you puff out your chest to try to navigate the world as if you got your shit all handled. The real hardened narcissist, man, they're they're nearly impenetrable. But the thing is, is that most people are the compensatory narcissists. And the way you work with those, if I have one of those folks come in, my approach is listen, man, everything that you have can be taken. Everything. It's one of the reasons why when I'm working with athletes, I get right down to the basic thing. It's like when you're treating someone that, let's let's say, for argument's sake, you have an athlete that's accused of domestic violence, right? And the world will come out and say, Oh, you're a piece of crap, you shouldn't do this. You think they're gonna open up in therapy to that? Uh-huh. Where it starts is you seduce their narcissism. You try to focus on them as the person that's most important. Listen, I don't know your wife, I don't know your girlfriend. I don't have a problem with you being angry at her because relationships are hard. But as soon as it became physical, you made yourself completely vulnerable. And we have to make sure this never happens again. We could talk about why that's important for your relationship. We could talk about why that's important for her, but I don't even know if she's that important to you right now. But I know you're important to you. So let's talk about this in a way to make sure you don't fuck up your whole life because you just took a U-turn. And then they'll lean in. Because you didn't find me randomly. Someone sent them to me because they're worried about how heavy the stuff that you're doing is, right? And and the outside world doesn't know what actually happened behind closed doors. There are times that the girlfriend or the wife is being horribly emotionally abusive. And he finally gets fed up and he smacks her. Should he have? Absolutely not. But this was not something that just came out of nowhere. So the point being is that you wanna you wanna engage folks in that situation with therapy that seduces them into talking about what they care about the most, them. And then when they're talking about them, then we could talk about all their vulnerabilities and what's really going on. Why is this really happening? Well, because you know, she questioned my manhood. Do you have a penis? Yes. Are you really worried about whether or not you're a man? No. Then then why did you react that way unless she pushed a button of vulnerability to you? And she pushed that button primarily, probably because she knew it would work. And so basically what you're saying is you lost control in this relationship because you were not in charge of yourself. So let's say this is not your wife or a girlfriend or just someone that you met. You're gonna let her to take everything that you have. You gotta be better than that, right? So so what we're doing is we're we're focusing on what's important to them while also empowering them, rather than shaking our finger at them, going, you're a piece of crap, right? It's not that the work can't be done, but it's hard work. And the person that's in that chair has to be honest, has to be willing to say, well, I got to take a look at this differently. And of course, the later you are in the game, the harder it is. So that brings us to the question that you were asking about how do we try to insulate people from this?

Guardrails For Marriage In Sports

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Fire the question again at me.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yeah. And so we look, we look at putting like what structures, like whether you're a high profile athlete, high profile coach, how do we put in the proper structures with the money, the moving, the changing of locations, the narcissism that comes with it? How do we put in the proper structures in place that not only give you a healthy marriage, but the best chance for that child to have proper development and have success?

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Some of it we can't change. Some of it we can't change. People have to, not have to. I hope that people have the foresight to do things with intentionality. If it is the most important thing to you to be a husband and a father, or a wife and a mother, then you have to decide how much moving you're willing to do. How much is your career worth more than the well-being of your family? It's a very hard sell for me to believe that the family is better off without the dad there, even with the financial benefits that come with it. Uh, it wasn't that long ago. Bruce Arians made a big deal. I mean, he hasn't been coaching for a couple of years, but he had some coaches on his staff and he said, if you miss your kid's birthday, I will fire you. Whereas there are a lot of people I think Sean McVay was talking about it not that long ago, that would sleep at their office. You know, starting at 3-4 in the morning and watching film until 11 o'clock, sleeping in the office, wash, rinse, repeat. You think that's good for kids? It's not. You think it's good for marriages? It's not. Now, there's also only, you know, what do we got? 30 something in the NFL. You know, you know, there's only about 200 of those types of positions in the world. You know, if you add some of the big NCAA positions, maybe a thousand total. The numbers kind of bear out that you have to decide it's really what you want. But it's it's understanding where you want to go and what sacrifices you're willing to make. Now, I don't know Sean McVeigh because if I did, I wouldn't be talking to you about him on the show, right? I have not worked with Sean McVeigh. And I'm not at all implying that Sean McVeigh is a bad father or husband or or he couldn't be those things. I I don't know. What I'm saying is that type of lifestyle makes it very, very difficult. And the organizations and the owners of sports expect this from their GMs and their coaches and being on call all the time. And so one of the things that you need to realize is there's limitations of where you can change the system. Because the business of sports is not going to go away because of your marriage. So you have to decide whether or not that's the most important thing for you. And if it is, and it's okay with your spouse, then you will work hard to try to make things work. But it's going to be an added level of stress. Same thing for athletes. Athletes have no idea. I mean, come on, adolescents are gonna have some appreciation of what they're gonna do with wealth. They're thinking about what kind of jewelry and car they're gonna be driving, not what the quality of their relationships are. And so I think this is the type of thing that should be fundamentally talked with high school athletes about. And we still look, we still have coaches that are having kids run suicides as punishment, right? So, you know, where we could be with developing athletes, we're so far from where we could be. And you don't need a sports psychologist necessarily, because good coaches know a lot about sports psychology, but it's more than just motivating them to get up for the next game. It's about hey, how are things at home? I know someone told me that you just broke up with your boyfriend. How are you dealing with that? On making emotional awareness a fundamental part of what we expect on our team. Because emotional intelligence on a team also predicts success. So we start talking about the importance of relationships. You know, too often we'll hear coaches talk about this team is a family. But if you go away on a trip with your father to Europe, which is like a once-in-a-lifetime thing, you missed a game and I'm gonna bench you and you're gonna lose your starting spot. Athlete told me that last week. I was like, man, you don't want me talking to that coach. The easy answer is go fuck yourself. That's the easy answer. But the more the more sophisticated answer is you're saying that this high school athlete that's on the fence of whether or not she wants to play in college anyway, is going to lose her starting position because she went on a trip and missed one game with her father. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And by the way, this kid comes from divorced parents, right? And the parents are trying to do the best they can to give the kid the best life that they can. And some ways they're doing well, some ways they're not. She's going on a trip with her father, and you're gonna bench her and take her starting position. High school coaches, youth sport coaches questioning kids' commitment to their team. Nobody even knows who you are, coach. Outside of this town, nobody's heard of you. So ease down. If you want to lean into being a coach, you have tremendous influence. And God bless youth sport coaches because they're not getting paid, right? But there's a lot of daddy ball out there. This is a vehicle so that my kid could get highlighted instead. And by the way, there's also some coaches that you go, wow, they got it right. Especially at the younger level, they're making sure everyone gets reps, they're teaching skills. When people are making mistakes, they're not just yelling at them, they're coaching them up on the sideline, helping them understand the technique problem of why they made the mistake. So it's not to say that coaching out there is all bad. It's just that bad coaching that is out there has a ripple effect. And that needs to improve if we're going to have athletes that are accountable, mature, emotionally available, committed to team as well as family. If you're going to say that the team is more important than family now, why should they think that the family is important when they grow up? So this stuff should start early. Very often, college coaches and pro coaches, they they'll they'll call me and be like, I don't know even know where to start. This kid has so many problems. And I'll say, yeah, it is hard. The older the child, the harder it is to fix. But good coaches know that you can't use a one-size-fits-all approach. You have to know your players well enough to know what makes them tick, what's their weaknesses and vulnerabilities, what motivates them. I'm more interested in coaches that want to build character rather than athletes. For most kids that play sports, they will not go beyond youth sports or high school sports tops. It's actually the minority that plays college sports. So, as John Wooden once said, you know, sports don't build character, they reveal it. Well, the sequel to that is sports do build character, but there's no promise that it builds good character. And so who's keeping the fox out of the henna house? Who's doing things in order to make sure that athletes are learning the right things? When we have a coach that does all of these things right, those are the ones that should be revered. But they still shouldn't be put on a pedestal like they're more powerful than the mayor. We we have this love-hate relationship with sports because it's so embedded in our culture, and I love sports, but anything with power can can corrupt. And so I think that if we want to understand the difficulties that athletes have with relationships, we should be mindful that their early understanding of relationships sets the stage, present company included, that you're either going to repeat what you've seen or you're gonna rectify it. You're gonna say, hey man, love my mom, love my dad. They made a lot of bad mistakes. I'm not saying I won't make mistakes, but I'm not making those mistakes. I will learn and I will be better. And and, you know, I think that that's the best that we could hope for because relationships are hard. Marriage is hard. But because it's hard, it doesn't mean the answer is divorce. For some people, it is. And we shouldn't see it as a failure. It's an opportunity to move forward with the next chapter of your life, healthier, healthier relationships with your kids. Um and and that can be an optimistic picture. But it's hard because I don't really remember hearing anybody talk about athletes and divorce before you and I had this conversation today. I don't remember it ever.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Yeah, you don't hear too much about it. And uh, you know, I I do see you know the the whole world of athletics, in particular with marriage and infidelity and divorces and things that change is a is a pretty mucky place behind the scenes, particularly when you know people in the the higher realm that are in the know and you hear about what goes on behind the scenes, even about people that you'd be surprised that look like they have it all put together, it's just heartening.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

And the worst is that when it's the other way around and everything is good, it's boring and it's not news and no one talks about it.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Yes. That's like I hate the negativity bias that revolves around media in in life, drives me insane. Sells, though. It sells. Of course it sells. Of course it sells. Then because it makes, you know, everybody's problem your problem, and drama's exciting, and you know, it's like, oh, what about this person? Then you have the opportunity to, you know, peacock and be like, I would never do something like that. Meanwhile, in your backyard, you have your own demons, and you know, it's the the whole world is, you know, is in an interesting place with media and news and all, you know, everything that we see on a day-to-day basis.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Well, but sports are about excitement, though, Colin. I mean, it takes a certain amount of maturity. I think most people get to a place, and depends on where they are in their life. Most people get to a place that they prefer contentedness over excitement and happiness, where they think happiness is excitement rather than contentedness. And sports certainly feed the excitement. But let's let's not forget the other side, also, right? Athletes tend to not be a very anxious, fearful bunch because if they're too afraid, they won't do the impossible things that the average person won't do. So their ability to compartmentalize fear and anxiety is adaptive. But if everything's about chasing the excitement, yeah, it feels great when everybody's throwing themselves at you and you got more money in your pocket than you know what to do with, versus it's actually nice to sit outside on a nice night and just talk to your husband or your wife. Maybe have a nice meal, sit outside, watch the kids playing. That level of contentedness seems to need a certain amount of maturity.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

I think there's answers out there and people don't really want to look for them. And, you know, I speak to this as someone who struggles with having like high ambition and wanting to chase that that excitement. But where I do a good job of that is being able to segment my life and not leave let certain elements, you know, of my personality, uh, of that, you know, dopogenetic hit that you want to get translate into other areas. And so you can put guardrails on your social media usage. You can utilize different skill sets that you can practice to be able to transition from I'm in this physical pursuit. I love what I get from this pursuing to be the best and sacrifice and commitment, and you know, the elation and excitement you get when you win and the applause or whatever it is, but be able to stop that there and be able to go be dad and husband when I need to be dad and husband. Well, it's not just when you need to be, it's also it's because you want to be. Right. And like there's the the point being is you can like it can be done. And you can curate, you know, your life to a certain way. And of course we we make certain mistakes, but the idea is not to, you know, engage in mistakes that are gonna wipe you off the you know, the face of the earth or wipe you out of your relationships or wipe you off your your professional field, whatever it is. And you want to mitigate the ones that are going to that are catastrophic. And it's it's simple to do, it's hard to implement, but it is simple in theory to put these guardrails and to put these systems in places that can help you be who you need to be when you need to be that person. I just don't think people want to look for those answers all the time. I think people like using certain things as an excuse, you know, to justify actions in other areas of and they'd rather sit in that internal discontentment because they have an excuse than to actually search for the answers and do the hard work of implementing them. I I think that you're right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

People do like having an excuse. The only problem is it's not an excuse. It's an explanation. It's a it's an ex it's an explanation to why you didn't do it the way you could have. If you want certain results and you didn't get them and you chose to do this instead of that, that's not an excuse. It explains it. It doesn't let you off the hook. And I think that the other thing is that I like the way you you said it's easy to say, it's hard to implement. And the reason is discipline is is rare. It's one of the reasons why I think athletes are seen as certainly Fortune 500 companies love recruiting athletes because they have a certain amount of uh discipline that's expected. I mean, keep in mind, I I've said this before, it's you know, the difference between anger and danger is just one letter. D. And that D stands for discipline. If you don't have discipline in your life, everything becomes higher risk. But it's hard, you know? You take a look at a student athlete's calendar with between practice and games and having imagine they actually have time for a social life. And even more so now, sports are so self-centered, they don't even give a shit about having a schedule anymore. When's the game? Saturday. What time? We'll let you know. I have three kids going in all different directions. Can you tell me? No, we'll just tell you, and you're expecting to show up. And if you don't show up, it means that your kid is not very committed.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

I'm not a big bar stool guy. I gotta send you this, I gotta find it and send a video that one of the bar stool guys went off about youth sports, like something very similar to what you just said, and I was laughing hysterically. I'll I'll find it and send it to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:56

Well, Portnoy, you know, I can't figure out with Dave Portnoy when he and his folks are saying things when it's clickbait or when it's what they really believe, because they're really good at both.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

I was gonna say that they're great at they're great at that. I mean they're great at stirring controversy and and all that stuff. And that's why I'm not the biggest fan of Barstool. But sometimes every now and then they do some things that are either good or funny, and this just happens to be one of them.

Stories That Make Meaning

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

I would say, you know, I don't mean to to cut you off, but something I think that's uh important is through all of this, what I think it's lost too is the art of like storytelling and learning how to put different pieces of your life together that serve, you know, a chronological storytelling of your arc of character development, how you become who you are and how you're gonna going to become more of who you you want to be. And you know, anecdotally, right, the the way I you know tell the story in my life, right, from a development of resilience or discipline or whatever it is, is you know, for from a very young age, I was forced to mature relatively fast, right? Because, you know, my parents divorced super young. I had an older brother with Down syndrome. You know, my parents got really sick when I was at a young age, and it was oftentimes it was me and my sister at home, you know, you know, yes, we had grandparents that came over too, but it was predominantly my sister and I, and obviously my older brother with Down syndrome, but we were taking care, not we weren't taking care of ourselves, right? But like it was get to practice, get to school on your own, come home. You know, your my mom might be visiting my my stepdad in the hospital, my stepdad might be visiting my mom in the hospital. I might be going to the hospital to visit them. Um, you know, help with my little brother with whatever he's got going on with my grandma, right? So like, but what that did too is it did a couple of different things. One, it showed me I had the ability to handle uncomfortable situations and hard things from a young age. But you talked a little bit about it earlier. It tells me how to like compartmentalize. I still had to show up and play. I still had to play at a high level. One, because it was expected of me, but more importantly, because I wanted to. I wanted to be a good athlete. I wanted to do the right things. I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be a good person for whatever reason. I think some of that's genetic. I just always wanted to be viewed as like a good person. I didn't want to disappoint my mom. I didn't want to disappoint my sister. You know, uh, but I always like, you know, when you're younger, you date a bunch of girls. But, you know, my mom and sister was uh would always ask, why don't you bring like a girl home? And like, you know, I don't know if I never admitted it until I met my wife at a young age, but I was always embarrassed. I didn't want to bring the wrong girl home. And then finally, it was the only girl I really ever brought home at 16 years old, ended up now, my wife, we're high school sweethearts. And, you know, but like that storytelling is like, I don't know if I would have been mature enough to handle that had I not gone through everything. I don't know if I could do some of the things I do now if I hadn't endured those things earlier. But I think part of that too is a conscious decision to write that into my narrative and into my story of how I develop certain skill sets that I apply all the time. And I can be have a million things going on in my head. But then when I it's time to do a task, I can erase it all and just get to that task. You know, and it it's, you know, athletes, people in general, lose that art because they don't spend time learning how to storytell in their own life. Great perspective.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Well, I mean, first off, there's also the issue of when you compartmentalize and you get on the field, I can put everything else aside and be the animal that I want to be here, right? I can, you know, especially you play football, you're able to do things on that field that you're not allowed to do anywhere else in society. So there's something freeing and cathartic about that. But but narratives are so important. You know, we've talked about my book that came out last year, and I was recently doing a podcast with the publisher, and he was interviewing me, and he he was so curious about process. And he said, How did you decide to put all of those personal stories in your book that illustrated how you've kind of gotten to where you are? And I said, it was a really important question because when you tell your narratives, when you tell your personal stories, it's why I have tremendous respect for you to have the courage to put things out there the way you you have in this podcast. There's a level of vulnerability that goes along with that. But what I said to him is that first off, me telling my stories makes it obvious that I'm not perfect, right? You know, I didn't figure this stuff out because God put his hand on my head and I was bestowed with such wisdom. I learned a lot of this shit the hard way. A lot of it. But the other thing is I said to him, I said, you know, facts provide the skeleton. Stories put the flesh on the bone. That's that's what makes it real. That's what helps people organize the way they see things. And I can't say enough how important those narratives and those stories are. Pause for a second. They're mowing lawn outside. So do you hear it at all? No, you did. Okay, because I know you got filtering stuff anyway, but I just wanted to make sure. Sorry, back to where we were. Yes, the the stories that shape us are the fabric of our lives. And I think it's very hard for people to understand where someone comes from when you don't hear those stories. It's one of the coolest things about being a psychologist. When you're talking to someone, and you know, sometimes people will come in and they'll say, Well, Doc, I think this and I know it's distorted, and I'm like, Whoa, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Where did this all start? What's the story? What was going on in your life that this got developed? And and and as, you know, because I do so much work with anger management, people come in with this the shame of, I can't believe I'm gonna tell this story. And when people tell me their stories, almost every single time I go, wow, that makes sense. Now I understand you better. And if I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel the same way. These stories give reality, the phenomenology of one's experience. And so they're critical to understand someone. But there is also something to be said for when you're involved in sports, nobody cares what's going on in your

Dehumanizing Athletes And Performance Lulls

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

personal life. You're expected to perform. And people have to be able to compartmentalize in order to be successful. And the best athletes are able to do that. It doesn't mean that there aren't times that things don't bleed in, times that it's it's hard. It's not just about playing the sport. It's you have opponents that are trying to defeat you. You have fans that have expectations. You have the media who's waiting to throw their microphone in your face as soon as the game is over before you've had an opportunity to decompress. There's social media and and you know, keyboard assassins who have no problem saying all kinds of things about you, even though they have no idea what's going on in your life. And so, you know, there are times that people say, well, it's not fair that that professional athletes make as much money as they do. I say, all right, there's some argument to that. But there's also prices that they pay that people don't see. Or don't care. Or don't care.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:22

Or don't care. I think about that a lot because I think athletes get dehumanized. And, you know, you could throw actors and actresses in that boat too. I don't think they face as much criticism, but I'm also not as exposed in that landscape. But I think about athletes in particular who are always in the limelight. And of course they make millions of dollars. And you'll hear them, you know, a lot of those guys say, hey, you know, some of this is the price for that, you know, wealth that we accumulate. But every little element of their life is a magnifying glass. What happens at home, what happens online, right? What happens in performance, right? And anytime they want to go out to eat, you know, particularly the higher profile that they are, they want to go out to eat with their family. Phones are in their face, right? People are trying to provoke them. People just want to take pictures with them. And that privacy element is completely gone. And you and then you think about, then they're playing poorly. Now they're already frustrated, right? Because anyone who's been in a high performance lens that you go through a stretch of a couple bad games and you're already just on edge. And then maybe you're having a dispute at home. Maybe someone's sick at home. Maybe, you know, there's real life worries going on at home. You're playing poorly, you have that going on, and then someone's in your face trying to provoke you, and then you pick up their phone and slam it. Right. And then now everyone's painting you as the bad guy. Exactly. Or bad girl. Right. And, you know, it's it's, and I know, look at you from your ivory tower, you professional athletes. Oh, your life is so hard. It's like, well, sometimes no matter how much money's in your bank account, you're still human. And exactly right. They deserve to be treated that way. And honestly, that's like, I used to be like super fanboy, right? Growing up, like love sports, love professional athletes, whatever. I'm very much not like that. I have my group of guys and group of teams that I root for and hope they do well. But like, you know, if I if, you know, if, you know, maybe if LeBron James walked in, I might be a little bit different. But like, you pick a professional athlete, they walk into our building right now, you know, I'd be like, hey, how's it going? Right? Like, they're human. Let them go on, live their life, right? If they've had some cool, meaningful impact in your life, tell them that story, right? If they have the time or capacity. Like for the most part, like sometimes people just deserve to live their life.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

Couldn't agree with you more. I've had a strange course of experience with that. I think it's even more pronounced because a lot of athletes that have come to me have come to me either with anger problems, trauma problems, accusations of sexual assault, accusations of domestic violence. So they walk in already with a whole bag of shit coming with them. Right? And I find that they have great relief when I just treat them like a person with respect. It's like, hey, I am mad at you. I don't know what your story is. Let's let's figure it out and and how we try to fix things. Early in my career, I I certainly had the big eyes for wow, that person's this and this person's that. They're human, man. They're human. And and people presume that because they're physically gifted, that they're psychologically gifted. And that's just not always true. And let's let's not let's not even go in the far extreme. It's not like, oh, well, we think that they're because they're physically gifted, therefore they're psychologically gifted, and they're actually psychologically damaged. That is true for some people. It is. Statistically, you have mental illness in the world, you're gonna have statistically some mental illness in in uh sports. There's no magic protective value that sports have. But the other thing that people forget is the average athlete has stressors that nobody even knows or cares about. And let's forget, let's not forget, this is freaking hard to begin with. And failure is endemic. So let's say you have a baseball player who's a career 300 hitter, right? Means you're failing 70% of the time. And you have the nerve to go into a slump. First off, I hate when that people go, oh, you know, the Mets are lost like, you know, 10 in a row. And and you think they want to lose. You think you're saying, by the way, you guys all suck, that's gonna make them any better? They know. If anything, they're pressing too much. And so what I tried to do is first off, I don't believe that slumps exist. Slumps only exist once you think that they exist. And then your confidence goes down, and then you're not able to do the things that you've been doing since you were six years old. Versus understanding that there is natural variability in performance. Yes. Right? And not only is there natural variability, there's also streakiness. There are some people that live in streaks. There are others that are more stable. You think about it from a like a standard deviation point of view. So if you're a 300 hitter and you have a very small standard deviation, it means you take a look at the person's career, they're going to bat between 285 and 315 every year, reliably until they age out. But over 162 games and playoffs, they're going to have some natural dips. And the ones that get out of these slumps quickest are the ones that understand they're not in a slump. In fact, Pete Rose did this great thing. He was schooling Frank Thomas and Alex Rodriguez about slumps. And he says, first off, you don't let anybody tell you you're in a slump. You're in a lull. It's just a statistical variation. And then they were talking about changing your batting, uh, your batting stance. He goes, you don't change your swing. That's what got you here. You don't, you don't change your swing. You just do one of six things. If they're getting you on the fastball, you move back on the box. Right? If you're missing the curveball, you move up in the box. They're busting you in, they move out. You hit missing the outside part, move forward. You choke up, you choke back. There's six adjustments you need to do to get back onto your performance. But you don't lose sleep over it. You don't get crazy. You understand the laws of numbers. You don't start saying everything's a mechanical problem. Everyone sends their kid to a swing coach. Your swing is fine. You face really good pitching. You'll adjust, relax. And so when you talk about the dehumanization, there's also a derealization of performance. These guys are doing things that the average person could never fucking do on their best day. And then we're gonna complain that they don't do it at a 40% clip or a 30% clip. God damn, Steph Curry now expects, now everybody's expected to be able to hit half-court shots because of Steph Curry. Really? No. No, no, no, no. These people are phenomenal at what they do. And there'll be natural variation in their performance. The best ones are they're able to just walk through their lulls. But when you're down and you're not happy with your performance, and your coach is not happy, and your team is not happy, and your fans are not happy, and then you have the nerve to go out in public with your spouse and kids, and everybody wants to say every bad thing they can to you in front of your kids, and you're expected to be the consummate professional. That might be too much to ask anybody on certain days.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:37

I'm with you,

Book Website And Listener Farewell

SPEAKER_00 1:18:38

brother. I think that's a good place to wrap this conversation. Um Well, hey, as always, Doc, I appreciate you. You know, love these conversations, particularly the nuanced ones about specific topics that people really don't want to talk about all the time. Um, you know, if you know, people want to get to your book, they want to reach you. You got anything else to promote? Tell us where can we get after you?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:01

So the easiest way to reach out to me is through my website, www.doc. Let me do that again. The easiest way to get in touch with me is my website, www.drmitchabrams.com. Just released a book, I'm not fucking angry, adjust the flame to get what you want and need. Available on Amazon. I'm on Twitter at Mitch Abrams ID. And I'm always interested in having these types of conversations. I think that you have a great ability to humanize the world of sports and talk about things that I don't hear anybody else talking about. So if I can be of any more help and fleshing, putting more flesh on the bone on some of these things that are all over the place, but no one talks about, I look forward to doing it. And anybody has any questions, please reach out to me. Love to talk shop with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:51

Appreciate you, Doc. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week. Check us out, athletic42.com. Download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Five stars only, baby. Thanks, Doc.