Matt Rotheram- NIL Deals: The Gap Between Headlines and Reality

Matt Rotheram and I break down how NIL negotiations really work when the public numbers are noisy and the real terms stay private. We also talk about why fit, development, and a long-term plan can matter more than a slightly bigger college payout, especially if the goal is an NFL career. 

• Media-driven NIL expectations and why players overvalue themselves without market visibility 
• How schools budget NIL and negotiate more systematically than fans assume 
• Prioritizing scheme fit, coaching relationships, and development alongside money 
• Using past client outcomes to help families think long term 
• The “cousin Joey” problem and why certification and experience matter 
• Overpromised marketing deals versus the reality for most positions 
• Contract complexity, incentives, termination clauses, and clawbacks 
• Why role players still benefit from having representation ready 
• Ideas for reform like agent qualification and limits on collectives 
• The mental health and identity shock when the spotlight and money fade 
• Investing, business ownership, and building leverage while your network is strong 

Download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel, check us out athleticforitude.com. Five stars only, baby. 

Transcript

Why NIL Numbers Look So Wild

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And why don't you peel back a little bit the NIL negotiations for me? How much of it is as unstructured as the media may portray versus what is actually happening in some of these conversations behind the lens?

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Man, yeah, I think uh the media is crazy, first of all, because the numbers you see in the media are just all over the place. And I think that's like the biggest misunderstanding. And from my perspective, like I think that makes it really hard because players have this expectation of, well, hey, I I saw this in ESPN for this player, and they're using that to gauge against themselves. And that makes it feel like a little unstructured, in my opinion, because you know, there's no visibility. The players don't really understand what their true value is. It's hard enough for us to communicate to them what we're hearing and what the actual market is. And I think just the nature of any athlete, I think they often overvalue themselves. So I mean, I think it's a little bit more structured than people think. I think schools have an idea. You know, they have sophisticated systems built out for this and they kind of know what they want to pay and what they're comfortable paying. I mean, there's always negotiation room for anything, but you know, I don't think that it's just like they're throwing wild numbers at people. I think there's definitely quite a bit of back and forth. And, you know, for us to have leverage for guys who have opportunities elsewhere, that's helpful on our part, even for the kids come out of high school now. Um, you know, having multiple power four offers and schools who are willing to pay you come in the door is a big part of it. And then, you know, going to the portal and having that as a piece of leverage as well. But yeah, you know, the schools they have they have pretty good systems built in place. I don't think it's as crazy as people think. And I just think the money is not what the fans are thinking. You know, I have even going to the gym, you know, people are showing up. I do this, and they'll be like, I heard every offensive line in Ohio State's getting two million a year. I was like, I don't think so, but you know, you never know. I mean, it's not public information.

Prioritizing Fit Over A Bigger Bag

SPEAKER_01 1:51

So when you're negotiating some of these contracts, what is like the order of operations in terms of importance? Is it money? Is it you know types of different types of deals? Is it organizational fit? Like, how do you prioritize what's most important for the athlete and what are some of these conversations that go along with it?

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah, I think, you know, I'm I'm younger doing this still, um, but learning from the older agents, I think the biggest thing on the NIL side is, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we're an NFL agency that's doing NIL. So the goal for us is still to have players who make it to the NFL and have tenure NFL careers. So, you know, sometimes the development process can get to the NFL, you know, you may be in a program that's not paying you quite as much money, but it's a better scheme fit. You have a relationship with the coach, it makes sense from all those perspectives. And like that's where we'd rather have you be. You know, the the financial component is just one part of it for us. I think that really we're we're looking to get guys into the situations where they're gonna have long-term success. And, you know, as an agency, you know, we'll make way more money as an agency if you have a 10-year NFL career than if we put you in some terrible situation where you make $50,000 more dollars in college, just to kind of chase the money there. So I think for us it's a little different mindset than a lot of places, but I think it's still all about you know, what's gonna be the best fit for you as a player.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

You hear some of these horror stories because the media does a good job of making everyone's problem your problem in the sense of, hey, you know, all these ridiculous asks or perceived ridiculous asks by like players and NIL agents and people being represented by their uncle or their buddy that they grew up with. And I I the one thing that I think about is like what you just said is, and it's a hard thing to evaluate without quantitative metrics, is is getting X amount of money more at this place that may not be a scheme fit where you don't have a relationship with the coach, is that going to outweigh staying in your current system, taking less now to get developed to then have a longer NFL career? Some of those things are really hard to quantify when you're having conversations with players or players family members up front. And it's how do you maybe put that into perspective or how do you anticipate putting that into perspective when you're negotiating with families and teams for a guy that may be like, hey, you might make less money here, but this is going to be better for your long-term development. Where do you show that proof of concept?

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Yeah, I think we use past clients as the best way, as good examples for families of like, hey, look at this guy. He was here, he could have ran here and taken this money, but you know, he was still able to accomplish all of his goals, staying at this program, maybe a little less money, but you know, look, he got taken in the third round. And, you know, look at the position he's in now. So I think that framing it that way for the families is really helpful. But, you know, I understand where the families are coming from, where, you know, the money's right in front of you. You have the opportunity. And, you know, it is true. Like, if someone's gonna invest $1.5 million in you to play one season of college football, I mean, you would think they're good, they're gonna use you, right? Like they're going to throw you the ball. They're gonna have you opportunities to, you know, be the key rusher in a scheme to, you know, produce sacks. Uh, you know, no one spends money without the intention of like returning on their investment, right? Um, and I think that's a story through any level of sports, you know. You you kind of spend money and you you uh put those position those players in positions to make plays. So that's definitely part of it. But, you know, still I like the holistic approach. Like I think uprooting a guy sometimes for a little bit of money is is just I don't know if they're necessarily gonna be happier at their new program. You know, flip side too, uh a certain amount of money in front of you is a huge opportunity. It could be life-changing money. You know, you do hear some of these stories where a guy is getting offered four times as much money to go to a different program. I mean, it's definitely hard to pass that up. And there's no saying that you can't go to said program and still be a great player. I mean, the situation could be even better over there. So there's a lot of factors. I think the biggest thing for us is just a lot of communication with, you know, the athlete. Usually mom and dad are quite involved as well. And just trying to put all the options in the table for them and then framing it with like past clients. Like we give them obviously the positive stories, give them, hey, these are the watch outs, and then, you know, based on the information, the best recommendation we can. And then it's ultimately the athlete's decision for sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

I think about the nuance to like each discussion, and there's not a one-size-fits-all model. And I'll have conversations, you know, with people like yourself or with former athletes or people in the industry now. And it's there's so many different factors, like you said, that contribute to each individual decision. And so you it's hard to make blanket statements that are either negative or positive about NIL transfer portal and all the things that are coming with NCAA athletics right now. And it's more of a nuanced discussion for each individual. I just wonder, like part of my curiosity is how many athletes in these situations are getting a full nuanced discussion versus blanket statements of you need to chase the money or whatever the conversation is. I wonder how many agencies or people in this position are doing it the right way.

Bad Agents And Empty Promises

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Yeah, I I one thing I worry about a lot, and this is when I'm obviously recruiting players to sign with their agency. Like I was saying before, a big thing for us is we're uh we're looking long term with everybody we have. So I I think about this like, so if you're an NIL agent, right? And you're not certified to rep the player in the NFL because the NFL PA requires certification for NFL agents. Um, and that's you know difficult for agencies to sometimes get agents to get certified. You have to pass a test, uh, to have a master's degree to sit for the test, or have a certain amount of uh contract negotiation experience, and they do pretty extensive background check for NFL. So you see a lot of like you know, guys who are doing the NIL college stuff, and uh, you know, it's it's tough to really feel if like, is this guy legit? Like, can this guy actually help me? Or is this guy just you know, cousin Joey, the trainer, who's known you for a couple years, and he's worked with a couple guys, and well, guess what? Like, they made NIL money because they were great players. I don't know if cousin Joey actually got them a better deal or made that deal more client-friendly. So I think that's like a big thing I worry about. Like, and then that guy, too, like he can't carry you past college. So if he sees some program off you this big payday for senior year, I mean, he has to be thinking, you know, jump in the portal. You know, that's that's his last chance to make money off you. And I imagine they kind of tell the guy, it's like, hey, well, you know, money for you for your future long term. I understand all that part of it, but like they have to be sitting there thinking, they're human beings, like everybody's trying to provide for their family as well. They're working with you as an agent, you know. I gotta think that they would be more inclined to push you in to make that jump for the money uh because it's over after senior year for those guys. So, you know, that's one thing I I kind of like when I'm working with families, I feel like that's just not something we we do here. We're we're we're thinking about totally different.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Do you think that message resonates well with those with those families? Like, do you think they actually absorb it or do you think they kind of get caught by the shiny dollar?

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Yeah, I think I think they get caught with a lot of overpromising for sure. You know, you get you know, people come to these kids saying, like, hey, I'm gonna get you all these deals, I'll get you all these marketing deals. Uh, I hear that all the time. And I'm pretty up front with people. Like, hey, if you're an offensive lineman, like you're not gonna get a ton of marketing. That's just how it is. I mean, because someone's promising all these marketing deals, and you're like me, I was a big offensive guard. I mean, maybe you'll get some buffet dollars or something, you know, something cool like that. But I don't know how many uh swaggy clothing brands want to be having you know, six, six, three hundred twenty-pound guard rocking their stuff. They probably didn't make a side. So uh I think they these guys get uh get this rhetoric where we're like, oh, there's all these companies trying to throw money at you. And there's definitely opportunities out there, but you have to play well first, right? If you play well, that's the best agent you can possibly have. And then everything else can fall online. But without playing well and without being the certain guy and sometimes a certain position, like it's just not realistic to be getting all this additional money. Um, there's always, you know, the NIO Rev share through the school. Like, that's gonna be the bulk of the money players are getting. And uh, you know, that's coming from the university, so from the collective and from their red share plan. So that's more based on your ability as a player. But I hear all these like, oh, we'll get you shoe deals and stuff. And I don't think any of that's really happening for a lot of these guys, but by the time they realize it's too late, and then they kind of blame it on the player. They'll be like, Well, you didn't play well, man. So what do you want me to do?

SPEAKER_01 10:41

The you know, how many false promises are there? Because you hear about you know, schools or you hear about agents or you hear about businesses that that make promises that don't seem to come to fruition or don't pay forward.

Contracts Get Real With Lawsuits

SPEAKER_01 10:53

How's like the legality of that playing out behind the scenes?

SPEAKER_02 10:57

You know, it's interesting. I think, you know, on our last agency call, they they talked about the Sornsby situation a lot. Not that we're super dialed into that because he's not a client of ours, but you know, it seems like you know, that's that's a real lawsuit that's happening right now. And, you know, I think before the schools and collectives probably didn't want to be in the position where they were suing players. So, you know, even if you had termination or clawback language in your agreement, I don't think any school wants to be known as the program suing players. But, you know, as people start doing it, I think it's gonna lower those kind of like social resistance bars. And I think that might become more common. And I think these NIL agreements with the schools are becoming more complex. I mean, there's incentives in these in these agreements. There's termination language uh where you can be repaying back money they've paid you. So all this is in play now, and I think that's the big thing why, like, you know, especially if you're a powerful football player, I think having an agent in place is becoming more and more important every single year as this process keeps evolving. Um, because there is a lot of money at stake, and you want to make sure you're protected on your end.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

How is that playing out for like some of the role players and all this? Because like a lot of these conversations are about the bigger ticket players, but like our backups and role players, like how like how important is it for them to have agents and are they getting paid? Like, what does that landscape look like?

SPEAKER_02 12:17

I think a big thing I tell a lot of guys is you know, you you never know when you're gonna get your opportunity, right? So, I mean, I think let's say you're the backup quarterback. Actually, no, no, third string quarterback. I mean, you just don't know. You could the starter gets hurt, backup gets hurt, you're in the game, you start throwing touchdowns everywhere. I mean, there could be marketing opportunities like rolling in, and I don't know if a lot of guys are in a position to handle that. And then they could be, you know, this could be very end of the season, all of a sudden you're in an intense, you know, NIL rusher negotiation with the school because they want to get these agreements figured out and lopped up before the portal even opens. And that could be pretty complex, and you'd hate to try to like go through that and figure out, whoa, I need help here, and then it's too late to really bring someone on, there's no relationship there, you're trying to catch someone else up on your situation. So I don't think it hurts having someone in place only because you know you're not paying your agent unless you're making money, right? If someone's charging you some type of monthly fee or something, that's criminal. You know, it should be commission-based, just like the NFL. Like the NFL is locked down at a commission, right? And that's how it should be for college, I think, too. Um, I see a lot of agency models where they're kind of like a blend of like recruiting and representation. And you know, that kind of confuses me. And there's monthly fees sometimes with those. Yeah, if you're a college athlete, you know, I don't think it hurts too much because you know, to have that guy in place and be in your corner, like you just never know how things are gonna go. And then if you end up not making a bunch of money, I mean, it's still a great resource to have somewhere to turn to and help you through, you know, a transfer portal situation. I mean, that's a very real thing. You know, guy's a power four player, signs an agent, plays two years, and it's like, hey, well, things aren't going so well. I'm not making money, I'm not seeing the field. Like, where could we home for me? And I think this is a very new thing because back in the day, you know, I think high school coach was always a great resource for the player. You know, even if you were like two years in the college, you could go to your high school coach and they have a lot of contacts and could easily help you out. But I think it's gotten so complex that, you know, once you're in college, it's tough to go back to high school coach for help. And then with the recruiting school you're with, they're not going to provide you resources to help you transfer, you're leaving them. So it's nice to have that agent in place because, you know, we, you know, every single school is a phone call away. And we can reach out to them and figure out, hey, like, are you looking for this type of position? Would this guy be a fit? And uh, we can find opportunities for those guys before the portal even opens, which I think is really beneficial. So you can kind of go into the portal scenario, like having options on the table instead of going in blind.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Do you like the way the current system is set up? Or are there

Role Players And Portal Prep

SPEAKER_01 14:49

like do you have opinions on how roles should be implemented? Should there be a collective bargaining agreement? Should there be different transfer windows? Like I'd really love to hear your perspective, living it from the agent side. Like, what do you think is the best operating system?

SPEAKER_02 15:05

You know, I think the biggest thing is I would like to see some type of qualification, certification process to represent college players. You know, just because I feel confident that, you know, I have a bachelor's degree, master's degree, spent years in contract negotiation, feel like really confident, you know, I would pass any type of background check, you know, certification they required. I wish there was some more of that. So then, you know, it would kind of get some of the guys who, you know, might not be as experienced kind of out of the way, and I don't have to deal with, you know, the cousin Joey type role. That's tough, you know, because those guys have relationships with these players, but you know, just because I I know my mailman really well doesn't mean I would let him represent me in a negotiation to buy a commercial property or something, right? I would want to go to some guy who had a skill set in that area, who had a football background, and could get me the best possible deal and make sure I was protected, right? So uh, you know, I think that's having some more safeguards for the players in that sense, I think would be really helpful. As far as trying to have standardized payments, I hear that a lot. Like, hey, every freshman should get paid this much, every sophomore, this position gets paid this. I think that's hard to do. I think it's almost we're almost too far past that. I don't know if that would ever work. I like the idea of a salary cap, but we kind of have that with the Rev share money the way it works now, but they would just have to eliminate the use of collectives. If the collectives were gone and all you could do was your Rev share, I mean, then essentially everyone has the same salary cap. And uh that would make it, I think, a little more fair. But even then, like, how are we gonna tell these guys, well, hey, you know, no marketing dollars outside of the school? Because there are guys getting marketing dollars, and in a sense, collective money is earmarked marketing. So I don't know how you draw back on that without kind of shutting down the whole outside endorsement opportunities and marketing for players. Because that was the idea when this whole thing started. If your name was worth a certain amount, like Johnny Mandel, you could profit. So if they go put safeguards in place, you have to go back and eliminate that again. I don't know, it's it's a tough one, but yeah, from my perspective, I like that the NFL PA has a certification process for NFL agents. And I think that if we could have that for college agents, that would be that'd be helpful for my agency because uh we want to do everything above the board and make sure we're uh representing ourselves in the best way possible and you know doing the right thing for these players.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah, so I don't know if you've ever seen the TV show Entourage, but in a lot of ways it feels like we're watching a real life Vinny Chase and E and Johnny Chase and Turtle running around in the in the college football landscape. And it's almost like this TV show has come to life, but except it instead of it being in Hollywood, it's it's college athletics. And uh, I don't think the outcomes are gonna be as fruitful as uh Vinny Chase's career has uh has panned out in the TV world.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Love Entourage's show. Amazing. Uh I get a lot of comments about ballers. Have you seen ballers in HBO?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

I have seen ballers.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

I have a great show. I I wish it was like that. It's not, you know, we're not renting out yachts and bringing players out for parties. Um that would be pretty cool. Um but yeah, no, I uh I get a lot of comments here about that show, and I think uh that uh ballers has a funny way of portraying like the signing process and the representation process, you know. We're not uh we're not getting players out of uh criminal situations on a weekly basis, but you know, the TV show has to has to get an audience.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

The dramatization of it all is what TV shows do best. What

The Mindset Behind Long-Term Success

SPEAKER_01 18:42

in your experience as an NFL athlete, as a power, well, I guess power five at the time, power four now, college football player, what has that experience taught you when you're connecting with these athletes right now and in the advice that you give them?

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Yeah, no, I I always tell guys, like, hey, I've been in your shoes, I know what it feels like. I didn't read about it, I didn't watch it. Like I was hurt before, and I had to battle back from injuries. Like I was buried on the depth chart. Like I remember being in the NFL, having bad practices, and having so much anxiety about that bad practice, I went and packed my entire apartment. Just because I was like, that was horrible. It can't get any worse. They're cutting me tomorrow. I packed up all my stuff, and I just, well, you know, if they cut me tomorrow, no big deal. I packed my stuff already. And I remember going to practice, not being cut, having a great day the next day, coming back and just feeling so relieved, unpacking all my things. So uh when people ask me, like, hey, like, do you what is it stressful? I'm like, I tell them that story all the time. I've done that like two or three times just because I have like nervous energy before, you know, like final cuts or you know, just having bad days. And and I've been through that. So, you know, for these players, I always tell them, like, I understand. Like, I know what the grind looks like. I I actually did it. Like I know what it takes to get there. So I think for those reasons, like it's really helpful for me to work with some of these guys. And you know, at Milk and Honey, I think that's like one of the things we do is like we often like work two agents with a player, and we try to have, you know, someone maybe who has some more playing experience, and then you know, obviously someone who's done a ton of contract negotiation, been an agent for 25 years. I think that's like a nice synergy. Look, how a lot of players can kind of resonate that.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Do you think that nervous energy helped you as a player, or do you think it made playing just less enjoyable?

SPEAKER_02 20:28

You know, I read a quote one time that you know that feeling of like someone chasing you and like coming to take everything you have is actually like a powerful feeling because it's actually true. Like, we're especially in the NFL, someone out there, I don't care if you were the worst guy on the practice one, they are coming and they would kill to be in your shoes, and they are working hard every single day to take everything you have. And so I think it's helpful. I think it's like helpful to understand that you know, success isn't owned, it's it's leased, rent due every single day. And if you're not gonna work for this and you're gonna, you know, spend all weekend partying and stuff, like someone's coming for your job. You don't know it yet, but they're coming.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

There's this uh, I don't know if it's a quote, but a storytelling from uh Morgan House. He writes about it in The Psychology of Money, and he talks about the most innovative times in human history are when backs against the wall, World War II, innovation is necessary, Great Depression. Innovation is required for the advancement of society, or society may collapse. And so it goes to your point, like the nervous energy or when your back's against the wall or you're constantly in this state of fight or flight, usually that's actually when the greatest growth takes place as an individual and as a society as a whole. The problem just becomes if you're constantly living in that space. And so when you're an athlete, you know, transitioning and understanding what season am I in? Am I in fight or flight mode 24 7? Am I in a position Where, hey, I have a solidified starting role. I don't have to worry so much, I'll get my job, my job getting taken from me. I just have to worry about getting better every day. But knowing which season you're in is going to help dictate your performance and overall, you know, enjoyment. I think part of the problem is when you feel that you fight that friction of being like, oh, I shouldn't be feeling this way. Sometimes you really do need to feel that way.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah. You know what's the inverse of this too, when someone's like too comfortable? Like everyone's seen that story of like the guy on their team where he thought he had it all figured out, you know, backs off a little bit in the training. He gets away from all the things that made him such a great player. And then, you know, slowly like the habits of success are broken, and then he's just not the guy he was. Yeah. So it's it's a crazy thing how you like you can kind of become a victim of your own talent. You know, you almost like your talent takes you to a place where your your character and your work ethic can't sustain you. And then it just all falls apart. It's some of my biggest advice to some of these young kids, you know, like just make sure you're doing all the little things behind the scenes because you know, if your talent's there, you know, you gotta keep backing up with work along the way.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Behavior has to be in direct alignment with your own internal expectations, not external, but your own internal expectations, it has to be a direct result of your identity as a person. Are you the type of person who does X, Y, or Z or not? And when you can align your behavior system in that way, a study just came out. Uh, the Navy SEALs they were talking about, the people who make it through training are people who, not the strongest, not the toughest, right? But the people who literally just acted in alignment with their identity, the people who just made the decisions to keep going because it was a function of who they are. And I think about that a lot with athletes. And when I work with athletes, we work to engineer this process to where decision making is just a direct function of who you are. And when we get into these elements as an athlete, whether our backs are against the wall, whether we're the star quarterback making $50 million a year, you know, external environment doesn't matter as much as you would think. And that if I pick you up and put you up put you in different situations, that same person is going to show up because that's all they know how to do because it's who they are.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Yeah, no, I totally agree. Um, player I played with, um, Aaron Donald, just, you know, he's like the ultimate example of that for me. Like he didn't care who he was playing against, what the situation was, how crude he was. He just went out there and did it, and he didn't even know any other way to do it. And it's just uh, you look what he was able to achieve. It's incredible. And he's probably the best defensive lineman to ever play football, in my opinion. And you know, I I kind of saw it real early. Like when I was a freshman at Pitt, I was like telling my friends, I was like, this guy is the best player I've ever seen. And then everyone's like, this guy, like, I don't know, man. I was like, just wait until you see him play. I mean, he was incredible, but yeah, he's a pick guy. So I uh I was like let people now like uh use him as an example of someone who just like you know, unstoppable willpower and just a mindset of like being champion.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

The first time I met him was my it's really the only time I met him, my senior year at Pitt. I turned the corner on the locker room and boom, Aaron Donald's just standing there. And I was like, how is someone who's 300 pounds look like he's shredded like he's 180 pounds? I was like no body fat. Oh it was it was insane. I was like, wow first, I was a little like you know, starstruck. I was like, oh there, there's Aaron Donald right in front of my face. Yeah, and then I was like, why does he look like that? That's that's not human. Like, how how is this possible? That defensive tackle looks has a better physique than defensive acts in the NFL. I just it was it was hard to believe that someone could look like that at that weight at that size.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Yeah. On top of the fact that, you know, obviously in the weight room warrior, you know, I'm sure body comp just insane. So doing all the right things. You know, I think one thing people don't understand about him is you know, he might not not have been a 4.0 student in the classroom, but he was really smart when it came to studying his opponent, um, like learning what things made you uncomfortable and exposing those things against you and just reading your stance. You know, I was afraid sometimes to actually get in a comfortable stance because I was like, man, he's reading my stance right now. Like if I get into like a run blocking stance where I put too much weight forward, like he he just knew. And then he was processing information based on probably the formation and the line calls we were making. And he was making like educated decisions like how he was going to play us. And I just think like not enough players are doing that, and that's such an advantage. What, you know, another reason, an elite player, like student of the game, you know.

How Agents Evaluate Players

SPEAKER_01 27:00

When you're recruiting players to work with, yeah, what is the type of athlete that you're looking to work with as we dissect the uniqueness and rareness of Aaron Donald? What are some of the characteristics and traits that you look for in athletes that you recruit?

SPEAKER_02 27:14

You know, I think size, number one. You know, can't teach it, can't coach it. I'd like to tell you that a lot of six foot one guys make it to the NFL, but they don't. And I'm sure there's a lot of great like six foot two offensive linemen that just statistically they don't hit as many times as if they do have the size. So, I mean, size is number one family position we're playing. That could be, you know, the most important thing, or it could be a little less important. But, you know, then I start watching their tape, right? I'm looking at like, hey, how's this guy move? You know, what's his speed look like? What's his dexterity? What's his agility? Does this guy bend well? You know, because the same guys who are, you know, fluid athletes in high school, they're fluid athletes in college. And usually the guys who are stiff in high school, you know, I mean, there's a lot you can do to become more athletic, but you're usually still a little one of the stiffer guys. You can combat as much as you want, but there's certain like physical characteristics that are, you know, they kind of stick with you. Um, you know, if you watch some like offensive linemen in high school, some of like the more elite prospects, you know, the way they come out of their stance, the way they play with leverage, I mean, those things translate really well to college, right? And if you have the right size, like, you know, I can kind of tell, like, hey, this guy's gonna have something here. So, you know, I'm really looking for NFL characteristics in college players. And, you know, size obviously being number one, but you know, then speed, agility, you know, these things that pop on tape. And if not to say that you have to be that guy every play, but if you're flashing it, then I know you can do it all the time. You know, they say like a kicker who can kick a 60-yard field goal. You did it once. In theory, you can do it more times after that. You just have to perfect that approach. Whatever you did to kick that 60-yard field goal, you can do it more. So I I look at the same way when I'm like evaluating players. You know, I'm just looking at like traits to jump off, and if I see you flash it, you know, that gives me faith.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Do you guys pay attention to any personality traits along with that, or are you strictly tools and then you'll work with the personality once you get them in the door?

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah, I think one of the things I try to do is I try to reach out to kids' high school coaches. Not that the high school coaches will always get back to you, but I do like to talk to them first because I've had some people right off the bat, even like talk me out of like reaching out to their players, like, ah, you know, he's working with this guy, or, you know, hey, he's he's he's trouble in these areas. And, you know, some of those things make me say, ah, well, maybe this isn't worth my time. Like, I don't want to work with someone who's gonna give me headaches nonstop over things that we shouldn't be worried about. Like, you know, for example, if you're gonna be a guy who's getting in trouble off the field, drugs party, and that becomes like a theme of who you are, like that's not something I want to deal with. Some agents might not care, but like I would I would prefer not to have that and have to like go to schools and like talk around those situations. Like, you know, I'd like to avoid that if possible. And you know what? When we do first meet a player and talk to them in person, you know, you like to get a feel for like what their goals are, you know. And usually guys in high school are saying the right things, and but there are some guys, you know, all they care about sometimes is like, hey, what's the most money I can get? Sometimes it's a little bit of a turnoff. I think a lot of college coaches feel the same way. I think Narduzzi talks about that quite a bit, where if you come to Pitt and the first thing you talk about on your visit is like, how much you're gonna pay me? Like, I don't know if like he says this best, like, I don't know if you're gonna be a pit guy. Or like, I want you to love Pitt and want to be a part of this, and then like we can figure that stuff out, right? But if that's all you care about, sometimes I'm like, uh, I still want to rep like guys who really love football and want to be an NFL player. If that's your goal, like, hey, I want to help you achieve your goals, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Yeah, that was very Nardusian. He was just on the podcast last week and said something very similar where he was like, hey, if the first thing that you mentioned is money, I don't know if you're gonna be the right fit here. The guys we have here, they love football, they want to develop, you know, they love pit, they want to be here. Obviously, you know, money factors in, but you know, and money is important, and money does give you a relative level of happiness, but it is not the only factor that, you know, is important in decision making, where you go, who you sign with, whatever the case is. Sure, money is gonna help you to a large degree, but it is not the sole factor that is gonna determine your performance, your happiness. There's a lot of other you know bearing factors that are gonna determine your self-worth as a as an individual than just money.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

I was actually just talking to a player's dad for a kid who has 40 offers. I mean, he can go anywhere he wants in the country. And I think the dad is really worried about the financial part of it and like, hey, like what are these schools going to pay us? Like, he's afraid to have those conversations because you know he doesn't want to be seen as a money guy. And I understand there's there's a there's no importance to it. Like, you do want to know, like, hey, like what am I looking at if I come here? Because I mean, if a program's gonna throw a lot of money at you and another program throws zero, I mean, that changes your interest level a lot. And it's actually one of the reasons I like to, you know, get these guys with us early because as you go take these visits, we can reach out to these programs, right? And we can kind of get an idea of like where they're gonna be with each player. And we take that information back to the families. So when they go on these visits and things, like, you know, dad gets to go beat dad. He just gets to enjoy the visit, and you get to evaluate the programs based on the coaches and the facilities and the school, all the things that you really matter. And then, you know, the agent can have the business conversations and kind of shield you from that almost. And I think that's like one of the values of us. And uh, especially these guys who have like, you know, huge offer sheets or taking a ton of visits. I mean, that's a mountain of work to do, you know. And uh, I think uh it's even tough for us, you know. We're like, okay, like he has all these options. Like, you know, how do we how do we figure this out and like compare these and you know, have these conversations? It's a lot of work to do. So I think that the parents appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

How do you get rid of that overwhelm? Because you have 40 offers. I mean, that's 40 different packages that you have to look at, even if you handle some of the you know the negotiations of the financial piece, like how would you recommend simplifying things for athletes going through this process?

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah, I I'd recommend that bringing it down to like five schools you love because of all the factors that have nothing to do with financial. If you can bring it down to those, think within those five schools, like you're there's obviously probably gonna be schools that are gonna maybe overpay for you. There may be schools that be slightly pay what you feel is under your market value. But if you can bring it down to like five programs you like based on all the factors, you know, I think it's the agent's job to really, okay, you like school B, school C and D are willing to pay more, school A maybe is paying less. Let's see if we can negotiate this and uh come to a common ground here where you can go to the school you love and it's the right financial package.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

What is a underspoken about part of a financial package that is not a direct paycheck to the athlete, but something that may, you know, pay dividends in the future?

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Hmm. I think some programs are more willing to help athletes out with the marketing side. You know, they're putting athletes in position with relationships they have, you know, to get deals. Like, for example, I don't know this, I don't work with Oregon really, but if you did go to Oregon, I have to imagine that with their relationship with Nike, many more players there are gonna get deals with Nike. Whereas if you went to Maryland, who's Under Armour's like headquarters, like, you know, I don't think they're gonna sign anybody. But I think Maryland probably has you know a good connect with Under Armour to get their elite players like deals with them, and that's separate of all the NIO Rev share money. So I think that's the thing, like, you know, some programs have power to do that, and then you know, other programs, you know, not as much juice, not the same level of relationships, and I don't think that's really talked about very much. But I think that could be confusing too, because you can get a lot of promises in that area, and if it doesn't work out, it's like, well, you know, you didn't play well, or this happened, sorry. There's not much guarantee there, but there is a lot of power, some of these programs, to help you out on the back end.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Is there any conflicting issues with like clothing brands versus like the brand of a school? Like I think of like a you know, Oregon has Nike, but say Lululemon comes in and offers Dante more, hey, we'll give you whatever for a clothing brand to wear this. Is there like anything that the school has to worry about with Nike with the personal branding stuff?

SPEAKER_02 35:43

I'm not as dialed into that side of the business. Yeah, we have some marketing guys who do more of that. I don't think there's too much of a conflict with some of the brands who go after these athletes individually. You know, I don't think like Lou Lemon's too worried if you're also working with Nike. But, you know, I imagine there has to be some contractual issues, you know, for a school like Maryland. Like if you did have a guy get signed to a Nike deal and then he's posting Nike all over his Instagram. I'm not exactly sure what that looks like. I imagine it might be built into those players' deals in those schools where it's like, hey, like we have a we have a situation with Under Armour, you know, you cannot work with these brands because they have to have some form of exclusivity, or why would these brands want to partner up with these programs? But yeah, I think uh there's a lot of really cool brands out there that do want to work with these athletes. And it's things that you wouldn't even think of. It's like startup shoe brands, like startup like supplement brands, protein brands. I think those are really cool opportunities. Like back when we played, there was no uh free supplements when you went home. Now, like we can get you a deal for you know whey protein powder all summer. So I think that's pretty cool. And those those are cool deals out there that I think actually help the guys develop too. You know, you can get more training equipment, whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

I gotta start reaching out to some of these things, see if they want to sponsor the podcast. I'm all about health to to you, future supplement companies. I I love health. Please come sponsor the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

You gotta get like uh like a caffeine natural energy or something, you know, stay up.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

As I drank my supermanly coffee here in between questions, the groove copy that coffee. This is an unpaid ad for the coffee shop down the down the street. Really good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

But I drink these spindrifts. I can't get enough of these. They're like all natural flavoring. I think it's like 10 calories.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

I'll have to I'll have to give it a try. There you go. Free free ad. They should come sponsor the pod. Yeah. But the where that question comes from is I just think of like Christian McCaffrey, who just came up with or partnered with his While on Earth brand. I'm actually wearing the hat right now. Really cool brand. I have some of their stuff that I like, but he also like will go out on the field and wear Nike. Now I know that's NFL, but like I was wondering like, will this trickle down to the college space as people you know view that athletic landscape in college athletes as a potential opportunity to market their stuff? And I was thinking about the conflict of interest and how that operates.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Yeah. I think another thing that's kind of interesting with these brands is I think there's not with NIL being, you know, an open door opportunity, there are so many people that they can sponsor. I actually think that, you know, they can they can get away with actually spending significantly less money and they could sponsor more athletes. And some of these athletes are okay accepting, you know, a significantly less amount of money. I mean, imagine if you were major workout brand, you know, 10 years ago. I mean, you had to go to like an NFL player, and I'm sure the amount of money they were looking to accept was much higher than like them going to a hundred college athletes, signing them all to a few thousand dollars. And actually, they I can imagine that maybe similar success, you know, with the social media and stuff. I mean, maybe uh their platforms all combined is the same as like a couple like NFL guys that used to pay for back in the day. There's just like so many athletes you can partner with in today's world.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Do you think there'll ever be a space, or maybe it has already happened, where like brands or companies will offer athletes, instead of like paying directly, like equity in their brand or in their company to help incentivize the athlete to grow it as well? Or is it more just kind of pay for pay for play type of thing?

SPEAKER_02 39:14

That's a really cool idea. I think we should we should set up a business or something where we can figure that out because I really like the idea of that. You know, it makes sense. It's like, hey, you're a startup brand. Hey, come on, you're like a part of the company. If you help grow it, you get some equity. I like that a lot. I haven't seen any of that, but that's that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Oh, look at me. I'm coming up with business ideas right on the podcast. Free ideas to make people millionaires.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Yeah, I mean, that isn't that's cool because uh you get a big enough athlete, you know, some of these guys. Imagine Johnny Manzell. Imagine if he would have if he would have started uh a version of High Noon. I mean, it would have been insane, you know. It would have been like the highest selling Zeltzer water in the country.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Yeah, you think of guys like Tarrell Pryor, Johnny Manzell, you know, even Joe, what Joe Joe Burrow became. Um I'm trying to think like some of the other prodigies that you know that ended up panning out, but um, you know, the Justin Fields of the world, these guys that come in that have all the expectations and that end up panning out, at least in the college space for the most part, um in just like that type of equity exposure that could help a company and then obviously get them paid as well in that type of risk reward system.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Yeah, yeah, to to partner up without having to outlay cash we don't have.

unknown 40:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

I mean, that would be a cool business model.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

What

Nutrition Then And Now

SPEAKER_01 40:35

is something that when you played, you wish you knew that you know now?

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Something I wish I knew now. Yeah, I mean, I think I I wish I uh understood, I guess, nutrition a lot better when I was in college. I think now the college programs are way, way better with it. It was more restrictive back when I played. I mean, I was still in the age where we had the bagels, and if they brought in cream cheese, it was considered a meal. And the NCAA restricted that. I know they make fun of it and like went on and stay at the show, but that was a real thing. I remember having like bagels, and we had like no options to put as a topping because the NCAA had restrictions on meals. But now I think these programs are on another level with nutrition, and it's just such a big part of it. Like, you know, the food you eat fuels you, and as a young player and you're going through, you know, a massive change in your body composition and you're still growing, you know, it's just so crucial to have that nutrition. And I do think the programs are super dialed then. But you know, when I was younger, it was it just wasn't as big of a thing. Not that Pitt didn't have a great training table and we had nutritionists, but uh it's another level now. You see these programs, I mean, they have the most crazy setups and they they have like like almost looks like convenience stores where guys can go in and like grab anything you need for home later, like snacks, like everything is like dialed in for these guys. Just uh, you know, even when I was in the NFL, I started really appreciating how important it was. But you know, college, I just even high school, I probably missed the boat, but different world now.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Did you guys get stipends or when you were there or no?

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yeah, we did. So we got like a housing stipend, which you know covered your cost of living. So you know, I always felt you know that I was I was living pretty good in college. You know, my housing stipend was was enough to cover the rent. I had enough for the weekends, I had to afford my winter coats. I I thought it was fine. Never had a problem, you know, these guys now. If you're starting power for football, like you're you're doing pretty well for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Yeah, it isn't it like it wasn't that long ago that none of this stuff existed. Like this didn't exist what is it, eight years ago now when I was playing, like nothing close. Like we got stipends, we got your scholarship, and that was pretty much it. But like, like you said, like you're looking pretty good. Like you know, now I am very in favor of like athletes getting paid what they're worth. Like to me, the most insane thing in the world is like Johnny Manzel couldn't sell his autograph. Like, why the heck not? Like the tuba player down the street, if they were famous, could do it. Why can't you know a college football player? Right. So, you know, I just uh it's just crazy though how much change and evolution can can happen in the snap of a fingers just with the just with a single decision basically with the NCAA open the floodgates.

Life After NIL And Mental Health

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Yeah. I uh I've talked to a lot of people about it. I mean, I I I'm in favor as well. I think that, you know, to have all that effort and time spent and to not financially profit was was kind of crazy now looking back on it. I guess my only concerns with the new world today is like, you know, what's gonna happen to some of these guys, you know, when they get out of college, right? Some of these guys who don't play in the NFO and you were in college and you made hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then you walk out of college and you go. Take that first job for $45,000. I think it's gonna be we're not seeing the effects of it now, but I just think like some of these kids are on such a pedestal. Not that athletes weren't up there before, but you're almost living this like crazy life when you're 18, 19, 20. It's tough to go back and to draw back from that. It's the same reason, you know, adults in the world that they get buried in credit card debts and things because they they get to a certain lifestyle, and even when things change, you know, they they're fighting so hard to maintain it, and it's just not sustainable. So I just think uh it might be tough for some of these guys once they get in the real world. Like I really hope people take that money and they invest it and they're really smart about it because you blow it all, man, and you get out there and you didn't set yourself up for like a real career. I mean, you could be real depressed. I mean, it it could be pretty bad for some guys.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

And that's actually the part that I'm really interested in in solving too, is the and I'm gonna generalize this statement. I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but the problem with athletes is like it is chronic and perpetual narcissism to a degree. Like we are put on a pedestal from the time we are young all the way through. Now you add the money element to it. And then all of a sudden, like you said, uh, and you know, even if you play a couple years in the NFL or whether college ends and that's where your career ends, it is a hard transition. And now all of a sudden you're going from everybody telling you how great you are, throwing money at you, throwing deals at you. And then all of a sudden, a lot of the people that you thought cared about you really prove and show that they didn't. Now all of a sudden you're just a regular guy on the street, you know, pick said company. They don't care that you played college football at Alabama. That doesn't help their business grow. They don't, they only care about what you can tangibly do at this point for them. And that is a culture shock. That is things that people are going to have to endure and we're gonna see and probably see some tough stories coming down the line here that I don't think the proper protocols or resources are there for athletes right now. And I'm really intrigued in being a part of that solution and seeing what solutions come to fruition on helping these guys and girls just become better equipped to handle that transition and to, you know, really become the type of people that can handle the transition.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah. Uh there's just uh there's a whole book mental health side of this that I've put like a lot of hours of thought into. And uh, I mean, we just don't know how bad it could be. I mean, because like you said, uh, the whole, you know, you kind of have to be a little bit of a narcissist because you gotta believe like in yourself and like, hey, I'm gonna be the best, I'm gonna, you know, be a tenure pro I'm gonna be a pro bowler. Like that, that can be helpful for you. And then the nature of that is the flip side. She goes, you still think like that, and then you know, no one cares about you, and you're just depressed. I mean, you it's gotta be depressing when you when you leave your NIL situation, NFL, whatever is over, and you're and you're in that job, and like you said, no one no one cares who you are. Um so I don't know. I gotta I gotta think about ways with the players I'm working with to kind of like almost tell that story and like maybe it's good to get in front of these people and like understand it's like be careful about this money you're making here, you know. Because all the one day it could all be gone and you have to be okay still.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

That's the other part of it, is putting your money to work too. Like it's nice to get the paycheck, but it's nice to keep it and grow it too, to fund your your future lifestyle that you want to uphold and that you want to keep without putting yourself in harm's way is really putting your money to work for you and understanding the the benefits of you know in investing even in a dull, not so fun SP 500 fund to just allow that to compound and grow and to show you what it can do for you in the future to the point where, hey, maybe you don't need to take the $45,000 job. You can do something else and create something else for yourself. But uh, you know, it's gonna be an important discussion. It's more important than gonna be how do we solve for it? And seeing those tangible solutions are gonna be the most important part.

Investing, Franchises, And Using Your Network

SPEAKER_02 48:11

I feel uh I feel grateful that I was like acutely aware of all these things. Not that I ever made a ton of money in the NFL, but I was really dialed in when I got out. I'm like, okay, like how can I invest my money? So I do own two franchises. And you know, I've really enjoyed being a business owner. And you know, those businesses obviously will generate me money every year, uh, which is super helpful. So it's given me opportunities to chase other opportunities that maybe I would have been hesitant on if I didn't have other forms of income than I do own a decent amount of real estate for someone my age. And you know, those are great investments that are gonna, you know, pay back over time and you know I'll build equity in those properties. You know, it's one of the only things I tell the players. It's like, hey, I've actually done this, you know. So uh if you're looking for some advice, not that I'm an expert in real estate development, but I've done a little bit. Not that I'm the best restaurant owner, but I own two uh juice and smoothie bars. Uh the brand's called Pulp Juice and Smoothie Bar. If you've ever been to Cranberry, there's one over there. I have to go check it out. Check it out. I I own two in the west side of Cleveland, but you know, you know, these are all things I've done. I recommend players, hey, learning about this stuff. Like, learn about what it takes to buy a business, learn what it takes to own a franchise. Like, you know, when you're in the NFL and you're in college, like there's so many people who are wanting to help you. You can't tell me that you couldn't go to the university and say, hey, like, do we have any alumni connections who do this? And you could learn how to do this stuff, like to take advantage of that. I think it's a good way to maybe combat what we were talking about.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

That is such an important piece. When you're in it, right? And I actually listened to Will Compton and Taylor Luan talk about this with busting with the boys. They were in the stage where they were, I mean, they were still in like the money-making phases of their contract, but they could see the end. Like they were at the point where it's like, you know, this isn't gonna last forever. We might as well build something while we're in the NFL. We have these connections. Our name still means something. And so they started busting with the boys, the podcast, and have grown it miraculously in the last couple of years because they were smart enough to do it while they were still in it, whilst the while their name still, you know, from a publicity standpoint carried weight and then just rapidly grew it from there. And I think that is a like you just said, athletes need to start taking advantage of things like that. And that can carry you more into the future than just thinking specifically about the NIL dollar itself. But hey, how can I use the things that I've built up to this point and actually create something of leverage in the future?

SPEAKER_02 50:46

Yeah, yeah. Using your network and taking advantage of it uh while you have the network. Uh yeah, love the bus with the boys podcast uh, but yeah, I love that. They they didn't even have to worry about getting done with their careers hitting the ground running. They were like jogging into it and then they just exploded once it was over.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

And it's something they care about too, which is the cool part.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

That is cool. That's probably I bet those guys go to work every day kind of sitting there thinking, like, man, like this is awesome. Like I get to do what I love every day. Like, I don't even feel like I'm working.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Yeah, that'd be awesome if more players could like kind of figure that out while they're playing. And then when it's over, you got something set up already. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Kelsey Brothers did the same thing. They find their their niche, they hit it, and they run with it. And it makes it, it just makes it more special because they care. And you can sense that they care, and that's the cool part. It doesn't have to be a podcast either. It can be anything that you're passionate about and that you like. That's just those specific examples. They took advantage of their current network and used it to create platforms for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

Yeah, yeah. I think definitely, like my my friends I play with, like so many of these guys are doing so many crazy things. Like I never even thought about, right? I guess when you're playing, everyone's thinking, like, I'm gonna coach, or you know, I a lot of people podcast, like things they knew, and then you know, they get out and like life just takes you in different directions. You just never know. It's all about the network you have a part of, and you can find these awesome opportunities if you're willing to work with people and uh you know, just asking for help.

Where To Find The Guest And Closing

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Heck yeah, brother. Well, hey, I appreciate you coming on, man. This was a fun conversation. I've been having a lot of conversations in the NIL transfer portal space um with different coaches and uh you know, had Jay Billis on, you know, he's a massive proponent of it. Uh, but it was cool to kind of hear it from your side uh as the agent um and how you perceive things and how the the inner workings of the deals work. So I appreciate that. Um if people want to reach out to you, if you have anything you know you you want to promote, you know, how can people get a hold of you? And you know, what what do you want to show off here?

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Yeah, so uh I'm all on Twitter, I'm on Instagram. It's actually one of the main ways I initially reach out to a lot of players. I have a lot of people reach out to me on there anymore and they're just asking me for advice. And, you know, people DM me and I let's exchange numbers and we talk. Um, I've had quite a few high school coaches who are having like their first player coming through the process, and they're like, hey, like what can I expect here? And I've had a lot of moms and dads reach out to me through my network. But yeah, reach out to me on social media is a great way. Um, you know, as far as promoting my brand and you know what's going on. I just think, you know, I'm a part of a great agency. You know, we work with elite players. You just mentioned Travis Kelsey, he's a client of Milk and Honey. So we're a great we're doing this at a high level in the NFL. And uh we've kind of taken that strong foundation and we're doing it all the way, like from you know, juniors in high school through college. Uh, but I think it's uh it's a great opportunity to partner with a great group of guys here who know what they're doing and have this uh foundation and track record success in place.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Well, hey, brother, that's awesome. Hopefully, people reach out to you, you know, get with good people, good agencies, and uh, you know, hopefully the this will bring some traction to you as well. But um appreciate you coming on, man. Thank you. For sure. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week. Download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel, check us out athletic42.com. Five stars only, baby. Appreciate you, brother.