The Playbook with Colin Jonov
Formerly The Athletic Fortitude Show.... Colin Jonov’s Athletic Fortitude Show has rebranded to The Playbook with Colin Jonov, evolving from a sports-centric podcast to a universal guide for mastering life’s challenges. While retaining its foundation in mindset and performance excellence, the show now expands its scope to empower everyone—athletes, entrepreneurs, professionals, and beyond—to live life to its fullest potential
The Playbook with Colin Jonov
What Coaches Get Wrong About Building Winning Teams: Greg Berge's 27-Year Playbook
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We sit down with retired coach and school leader Greg Berge to unpack what actually lasts after the wins and losses fade. We dig into trust, culture, and parenting pressures, then land on a simple north star: people over plays, every day.
• people over plays as the core coaching principle
• building trust through genuine daily interactions year round
• accountability with empathy for high-profile athletes
• celebrating bench roles to strengthen team culture and performance
• youth sports pressure, AAU over-scheduling, and why more practice matters
• parenting tension between fun, freedom, commitment, and resilience
• letting kids face safe adversity to build mental skills and reduce fragility
• redefining success beyond championships and ring culture
• culture as what you allow, what you emphasize, and what happens every day
• leaders as the most influential players, not always the best player
• empowering captains to handle locker room problems and grow leadership
• honest role conversations built on transparency and hope for development
• controlling the controllables and impacting the game beyond scoring
Check us out at athleticfortitude.com.
Five stars only, baby.
Reach out to Greg: go to greatteamsbetterleaders.com, you’re gonna find his newsletter, products, resources, anything that you’re looking for.
Subscribe, Download, Rate 5 stars only baby! Follow @ColkyJonov10 on all social media platforms.
People Over Plays
SPEAKER_01So retiring from coaching basketball, tell me what is the most important thing you've learned after all these years of coaching?
SPEAKER_00Oh man, there's a lot. I I guess you know, it's a people business. I'm gonna say people first, people over plays, people over X's and O's, you know, it's all about relationships and connecting with kids. And, you know, I I think when you're a young coach, you you kind of get obsessed in that X's and O's and just the the game itself. And then the the longer you coach, you realize, you know, I love that part of the game. It's really important, but um, it's the relationships and the people that matter more than anything. That's where you have to start. So if you start with relationships and people, and then you dive into that strategy, X's and O's in games, it it's a much healthier, much better approach for the long term. So I think you know, people over plays, I guess that's one thing. I got I got plenty of things, but that would be one at the top of the list.
How Trust Gets Built
SPEAKER_01So, what is your process for diving into relationships? What does that actually look like when it when you say, hey, it's you know, players over plays? How do you develop those relationships?
SPEAKER_00It I mean, it's ongoing. I think you just have to be genuine as a coach, genuine as a person. You have to uh you don't just establish a relationship, you know, in the season, it's in the off season, it's it's when they're young, when they're at youth camps, uh, you know, it's when you see them in the hallway. I mean, it's every every interaction is an opportunity to develop a stronger relationship with a kid. And so to me, it just starts at such a young age and it's a process. I think, you know, another thing I would say as coaches is being consistent is so important in a leadership role. I could say that my job as a principal too, but people want, they want to be able to trust you, they want to know what they're gonna expect. And I think kids, the more they trust you, the more they know who you are, the more you've built that relationship and you bring that same person every day. I think the the more you're gonna get out of them, the more you're gonna get out of your team.
SPEAKER_01When you think of the players you had the best relationship with, what were some of the foundational principles that you guys had together?
Accountability With Nate Heisey
SPEAKER_00You know, honesty and trust and transparency. Um, it doesn't mean everything's always gonna be perfect. I'll give you a great example. So, best player I've ever coached is Nate Heisey. Nate um was, well, you probably know Nate. He was up for Mr. Basketball in Minnesota, he played at Iowa State, he just graduated this year. I've known Nate since he's been born. He's best friends with my son. Um, Nate will be the first to say he wasn't always the easiest kid to coach in high school. Um, and you know, when you're 17 years old, 16, 17, 18, you get a lot going on, you know, and and I think, you know, I had such a good relationship with him that I could, you know, I could hold him accountable when I needed to, but at the same time, I I knew him as a person. I knew when to give a little. I knew the you know the challenges that he faced and his role with the spotlight on him, and I could understand that. And I really stayed positive with him and pushed him and all of that. And um, you know, I I look at Nate now and I I got probably one of the most rewarding gifts that a coach could ever get.
SPEAKER_01And the nicest thank you letter from him when he graduated from college in a in a signed jersey, and you know, that alone um makes it all worthwhile because that's that connection and relationship that that was made that you know it's wasn't always perfect, but it was it's the process and the consistency and um you know, watching a kid develop as he has has been incredibly rewarding as a coach and a person when you're going through some of those tougher moments as an athlete, you know, and I think about from like a coach's perspective, you know, when you don't fully agree or it's not easy, or there's multiple things going on in your outside life interfering with your athletic life, what were some of the things that you maybe did with Nate or other kids that helped deepen and you know, deepen the relationship and further that trust that a guy has?
SPEAKER_00I I think you have to be positive and you have to be empathetic, and you have to, you know, oftentimes with high school kids, especially your better kids, they have so much on them, they have so much coming at them. And, you know, Nate was up for Mr. Basketball. He was this elite player, and we're in a smaller community, and you know, whether he would admit it or any good player would admit it or not, there's a lot on you as a kid. I mean, you're 16, 17 years old. So I think being empathetic to that and just, you know, having those conversations and relationships with kids along the way, you develop the the trust with them and you help them navigate through it. And you you stay positive, you stay um pointed in the right direction, you've got them at the center of what matters for you. And uh you're not focused on yourself as a coach, you're focused on development of them and ultimately your team.
SPEAKER_01How much time do you do do you think that you spent on talking to your guys outside of basketball, like in terms of like their life goals or their academics or their personal relationships? Did you spend any time in those types of conversations with the guys?
SPEAKER_00With certain players, I would say I spent quite a bit. And with other players, it might have been more casual relationship stuff, whether it's at practice, before practice, you know, I had a unique, you know, I think it helped me in some ways, but you know, like being a principal, I didn't have them in class. And sometimes when you're a teacher in class, you get a little bit different, unique relationship with a kid. But at the same time, I was in the lunchroom all the time and I got to see them in different settings. And you know, the camps and all that, like I mentioned, like all of those different ways. I think you connect differently with different kids based on where you know them and where you see them. And some kids, you gotta, you gotta reach out more to them because some it's natural and some it's not. And uh, you know, I think they have to respect you, they have to know that you care about them uh at more than anything.
SPEAKER_01I think of the coaches who are listening to this right now who are thinking, how on earth do I develop like a better relationship with my guys? And what is a realistic number of athletes that I'm coaching that I can actually have a real relationship with that is fostered with trust for you? What in your experience? What is that number where you're like, this is realistic for each year that I come into coaching these guys that I can expect this number of guys that I'm coaching to actually believe in what we're doing and to be able to lead the collective?
SPEAKER_00You know, I would say realistically, I'm I mean, every sport's different. You talk football, that's a lot different than basketball, right? And uh to me, I am going to I'm gonna try to develop a relationship with every kid, but I also know how important it is that the leaders on our team lead the right way. And so I am going to probably try to go another level to our captains or leaders uh because I need to have that trust and relationship with them because they're the ones that really have the most impact on our team. That being said, I think as a coach, we got to celebrate all kids, all roles, and you got to really get to know all kids on your team as best as you can. And, you know, community relationships are a two-way street as well. Um, I can try as hard as I want to create a relationship with a kid, but they might not be as open or willing or have that personality to do that. Um, and so you're naturally gonna have people that you relate with easier just because of their personality, too. So um I I think your leaders on your team, it's really important at a young age to develop a relationship with them because you know the impact they have on the whole group.
Culture Comes From Every Role
SPEAKER_01You talked uh about like the you know, the relationships and the you know, the community that you play within. I always say it's a it is a performance enhancer to feel that you're a part of a community greater than yourself and to celebrate all the roles like you articulated, I think is something that's seems relatively minor, but makes a big impact for the guys who know they're probably not gonna play or know that the guys are gonna be the on the bench who are the you know the quote unquote cheerleaders of the team. But to utilize them and to make those roles feel important will give a performance enhancing uh element to those guys, but also to the collective because they can all feel the energy and they can all feel like they're part of a community bigger than themselves.
SPEAKER_00I I just literally wrote a post about that this week. Um thread because it's it's so valuable. When I think of our, we had a lot of really good teams, but not every team for us like made it to the state tournament. We had teams that that made it and then teams that didn't. The talent on those teams maybe wasn't incredibly different at times, but the teams that made it had that guy that you're talking about. They had these kids that maybe didn't play a lot, but they impacted the group and the team so much. And as coaches, we have to celebrate those kids because that's what culture is about. And those kids, when I think about leadership, and I think leadership is about influence. How do you influence your team? How do you influence your teammates? And when you're bringing positive energy and you're pushing kids in practice and you're keeping the locker room together and you're staying positive in tough times, like that's contagious, and that's what winners do. And the more kids you have like that on your team, the better you're going to be. So, how do you cultivate that as a coach? You need to celebrate it, you need to acknowledge it, you need to reward it. They may not play a lot, but if you don't do that, you're not gonna get that collective culture that you need to take a team to the next level. And so I agree with you so much on that. Um, that the the teams that win the most have those type of kids. As a coach, how do we get there? How do we celebrate those kids? It's an incredibly important question to ask.
SPEAKER_01I think about like again, the individual performer. We become so obsessed with individual self, what's in it for me? Like all these things that are directly tied towards ego. But even as the individual player, and one thing I do my best to do is articulate the best thing you can do for your individual identity and your individual self is to serve something greater than you. Because the the feedback and the fulfillment that you get for serving something that is directly greater than you is so impactful, more so than just winning a championship because you are better than everybody or getting playing time on a worse team. When you serve a specific role in celebration of something greater than you is one of the most important pieces that you can have. And it's so much more rewarding than some of the other arbitrary things that you may receive.
SPEAKER_00100%. And I mean, that's team sports, and that's the value and importance of team sports. And I think that's what worries me about it's harder to do that, or it's becoming less because we we do celebrate the individual so much as a society. And this is why team sports are so important for kids because you learn how to sacrifice, you learn how to uh be a part of something bigger than yourself, and that's an incredibly valuable life skill. And that's why youth sports at you know at the young level is also so important for kids. We got to teach that. And and parents need to remember the the why of team sports. Like your kid being that type of teammate is gonna get so much more, and it's gonna help them in their life so much more if they can learn to be that type of player. Um, you know, do you make other people better? How do you make other people better? That's ultimately what being a leader is, and that's what being a good teammate is, and they go hand in hand.
Youth Sports Pressure And AAU
SPEAKER_01Uh, when people get into like so a couple of different topics here. When you look at like professional sports, people talk about, well, who's like the best player? What you just said is the number my number one evaluation for which players are actually the best are the ones who can influence and impact and make the ones around them even better. And then secondarily to your point about the the parents, you know, as I have three young kids, and you know, you you're in the parental community, you see youth sports, you participate in some of the good and the bad, and there's this rat race where everyone thinks the only thing that matters in sports is being a division one athlete or going professional, and that is the only metric of success. And we're chasing, you know, keeping up with the Joneses, and everybody has to go to a million different training sessions, and they have to play a million games in AAU basketball or baseball for it to be worth anything. And maybe I'm a little old school in it, but I think about the important parts of what sports were talking about the team sports, right? And how it's making you a better and more productive human in society. There's the number one most important thing about sports is its direct translation into how it positions you in society to make a net positive impact. And I think that that gets lost. And then secondarily with athlete development in general. Again, I'm a little old school, but I think more practice than game actually develops more skills than just all these games and a little bit of practice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. 100%. You know, basketball in particular is the whole AAU circuit, and they're playing 60 games and they're not practicing. I mean, just look at American basketball as it compares to European basketball and the players and the impact. I mean, that that should be telling to anyone who's in charge of developing those kids. And, you know, you talk about that. I, you know, right now as we're filming this, the San Antonio Spurs advanced to the the NBA finals. And I didn't get to watch them much this year, but they played the T-Wolves, who, you know, is my team, and then I've been watching them ever since, right? Um, you talk about guys that impact winning, and and these are these are like top draft picks, right? Wemby, uh Stefan Castle, and Harper, like they're all top five picks. They all do the little things to make other people better on their team. That's I love watching them because they're not they're not that star mentality. They're just doing whatever the team needs to make everyone better. They're gonna win it all because of that. And that's really what a team is all about. And it's really special to watch that um and to see guys who are like elite athletes um not act like an elite athlete, if that makes sense. And so I I 100% agree with you, the whole youth sports uh movement. It is we're we're hurting kids because of all of that. And it's become a money grab for all too many people, and it's it's really, really sad. And uh, it's one reason I love being in a smaller community. My kids got to play three sports in high school, they got to be in a real competitive situation. They all they both got to state tournaments, but we didn't have that pressure of putting all your eggs in one basket and and playing, you know, a hundred games a year and could still have success with it. So yeah, it it's it's kind of a sad state of affairs, and it's really a big reason I do what I do online and and I create resources and I share things is to try to, in a small way, make a positive impact uh on sports in general.
SPEAKER_01Have you seen even in your community a shift in the types of personalities or the way that you know kids are operating when they come to you in terms of their expectations of self versus the team, or in your small community, has it's remained relatively constant over time?
SPEAKER_00You can you can feel some of those outside pressures, but I it does ebb and flow a little bit too, you know. Um, you know, when when you get pressure to we we have sports in our community where they're playing, I think too many games in the summer, and and you can kind of feel that. Um it ebbs and flows, I think, in a smaller community. Um but you know, eventually the the issues that you see in bigger communities all also filter to the smaller communities, it just takes a little bit longer. And uh so I I do see that. But um, you know, we need we need to get back to the why. And parents need to think of the why and what is the value of youth sports. And it's not always supposed to be easy, and there's supposed to be a struggle, and your roles are are changing, and all of these are important attributes and skills that you learn being on a team, and we just can't lose sight of that. And I think we got to keep talking about it, um, and hopefully it'll make a positive
Parenting Without Forcing Sports
SPEAKER_00change.
SPEAKER_01The internal tension I have as a parent, as someone who you know played Division I football, you know, reached the highest level for an incredibly short period of time, but was still in the locker room. I think about all of the you know work that I had to put in, all the failure, you know, the commitment, the sacrifice, and everything that goes into it. And I I do my best to look at my youth career without like revisionist history. There was, you know, a lot of times where I didn't feel like training that I ultimately didn't. But like for the most part, like I was pretty ingrained. I was always at the field, I was always doing something, playing some type of sport. And I try and remember, like, was I like, did my parents really like push me that hard? And my parents certainly did. Like, when I look back, my particular my stepdad, I was like, you know, he did actually push me like pretty hard in a good way. And like for me, when I think about with my own kids, because you know, my kids at even at young ages show relative athletic development. Yep. And I always like keep telling myself, what is the best way to just keep them engaged? Like, keep them having fun, keep them wanting to do it, not feeling forced, because if it feels forced, they're not gonna want to do it. While also understanding, like, okay, as we get older, which they're far away from. So I'm practicing now, preparing, I'm doing my pre-mortem for when I'm older. Is how do I parent them if they do show interest? How do I encourage the element of sacrifice? How do I encourage the element of commitment in being different? If you really are into this, this is what it takes, with being more of a guide instead of being, you know, being a guide on the side. And that is what I am constantly rehearsing as a young father now, as I see, you know, my kids with relative talent is okay, how can I be a positive influence and still teach the core components that I think I learned as a young athlete in terms of the resiliency, the commitment, the sacrifice in order to reach your maximum skill. So that's something I'm always constantly battling it in the tension with myself is what is the proper way to parent this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I've seen some great examples of that. Um, and I it's the habits that kids learn along the way that are so important. It's that whole process that matters more than anything. And, you know, when you approach it, I want you to create physical habits every day. I want you to create mental habits every day, I want you to create good positive habits. Um, if you can do things that keep creating them uh in whatever activity they're doing, as they start to find something they're good at, you know, now you open the door to more opportunities. I think of the Heise family, because we're best friends with them, and they've they've produced an Olympian, a Division I basketball player, and a Division II basketball player. And the one thing that, you know, Amy and Tony always did is, you know, just like we'd ask kids to read 15 minutes every single day, from the time those kids were born, we're gonna do physical physical activity every day for 15 minutes when you're young. And it could be dribbling a basketball, it could be running uh hills in the backyard, it could be something, but you just develop this habit, and this this habit over time then turns into okay, a sport, maybe it's hockey, maybe it's basketball, and then it becomes the kid's idea. And it you have to let them enjoy it. You know, you want to do things that you know aren't make it fun, you know, bring them to Dairy Queen after a game or a practice, or you know, do things that that make them enjoy it because you know it's about the process, it's about the journey along the way, it's not about achieving at the highest level. That will come when you naturally you know get more competitive and get older. Um, but yeah, it's those habits are so important. And if you approach it that way as a parent, I think you're just gonna go in the right direction. If if you remember the why and you provide the opportunities for the kids, you know no matter what, if they success or if they have success or failure, they're gonna learn something along the way. And I really think the people that stick with it the longest, not necessarily the most talented, are the ones that win it in the end. My daughter is a perfect example. She's a Division II golfer, she just graduated this year. She has been a kid who it was not, it was a struggle for her her first year in college. She didn't get the opportunity. It wasn't the same feeling of a team that high school was. And I kept kept giving her that same message like just keep grinding, just trust the process, keep working, just do what you know is important, be a great teammate. She kept doing all those things. Finally, her second year, she had a little bit more success. Um, and she graduated in three years, but the she kept doing all the right things. Good leader, good teammate, everything. She was told this year, um, basically, we thought it was her last tournament. And the coaches met her on the green and just like, great career, nice job. She kind of thought she was done. Two weeks. Later, uh, they're qualifying for the regionals, and the coach brings her in the office and says, Emma, we're gonna let you uh and these other two girls qualify for regions. Great. She hadn't touched the club in two weeks. She goes out, she qualifies, she shoots a low round. So she goes from her season being done, keep plugging away, stay with it, to now she's qualifying for regions. She goes to regions, plays great. Their team places fourth and gets to go to nationals. So my daughter now gets to go to a national tournament in Florida, and she thought her season was done. And I share that story because she just kept doing the right things over and over and over again. And, you know, I kept telling her you're gonna be rewarded, whether that's later on in life or now. But it was great and rewarding as a parent to see her get rewarded for doing the right things. And I just think doing the right things long enough, it's gonna pay off at some point. And you just have to believe that as a parent.
SPEAKER_01Do you think she could teach me how to play golf?
SPEAKER_00I she could teach me how to play golf. So yeah, she can teach yeah, she's but you know, all the struggles that happen along the way. I mean, we know that's it's not easy in the moment, but it's it's healthy in the long run. And I I told her so many times, just even from a leadership standpoint, I'm like, Emma, do you know how much you have learned? I mean, you're gonna be interviewing for jobs, and you've got three wonderful examples of leadership and being a great teammate that are gonna knock the socks off of an interview because you don't no one else gets these unless you're playing team sports. You don't get these experiences, and that's why what is it with with females in particular, males too, but I think 95% of uh leaders in the workforce play collegiate sports or high school sports. I mean, there's a reason, and uh we just have to remember
Letting Kids Struggle Safely
SPEAKER_00that.
SPEAKER_01The tough moments are are obviously the hardest. And one thing uh I tell myself, and you know, I tell the athletes that I work with is you know, life can only be lived forward, but it can only be learned in reverse. And so when you're going through these hard moments, you may not know now what you know the reasoning is, but you will know eventually in the future, and you'll look back to what you're going through in this moment will tell or will be a piece of your story in the future. And being able to learn those reframing techniques in the moment and understand it's not gonna take the pain away. And I think that's a falsity of society of the some of the things that we try and do through social media or whatever is we try and take pain away, we try and take emotion away, and you can never do that. And so you have to learn how to rationalize and deal with those emotions in the moment and view a view a version of yourself in the future. I always say the better version of yourself, what would that person do? What would that person be telling you to do right now? And then go do those things and understanding that, hey, in the future, this will be a part of your story and you'll be able to write it and choreograph it into the narrative of who you are.
SPEAKER_00100%. I think, you know, as a parent, you always have to think 10 years from now, how is this decision that I am making for my child going to impact them in 10 years? And I do think all, and I see this as a principle all the time, we take away all of the struggle and the adversity when they have the support systems in place to help them through it. And then they get into the real world and they've never had to deal with it, and they they don't know what to do. And then you look at the challenges we have with mental health and and anxiety, and and those are real things, but we have to give them the skills to overcome some of those challenges when they're young, when they have the supports of counselors, teachers, parents all around them, and and when you don't, in those developmental years, they pay, society pays later on, and you learn those in sports too, right? You're gonna fail in sports, everyone. So it's just a little thing, but it it teaches you how to fail and how to move on and and look forward. And I I think that's you know, again, why youth sports matter so much.
SPEAKER_01The hardest part for a parent is watching your kids struggle, fail, go through pain. And it's also the most important thing that they need to do. Your single job as a parent is just to make sure it's not existential. The rest of it, they have to go through it. And you know, I watched it with my parents, you know, even with myself and my younger brother. I watch it with I'm gonna throw my wife under the bus a little bit more for my wife with my young kids. Now I'm like, you gotta let them like get bumps and bruises and fall and let things happen. They have to learn that if they get a bruise or they get a boo-boo, that it's gonna be okay. Yes, it hurts, but they're gonna be okay. And then talk them through it. And obviously, you know, I have a plethora of issues, but like that's one thing I'm good at is like, hey, when we fall, we get hurt, sports doesn't go our way, and we're crying and we're upset. I'm good at articulating and discussing through that process of like, hey, and you know, I don't care how young they are, I'm a firm believer, and they may not hear it, but at some point, that voice, the consistency of that same message, that same voice from the time that they're two to the time that they're 22 is gonna filter through when that same consistent message is going through.
SPEAKER_00Totally agree. I I think where I see kids really struggle at the high school level is parents that all of a sudden get to be ninth and tenth grade and they're like, Oh my gosh, I have to start parenting now. Like all the work is done at the the young levels, like everything you just talked about, you're setting the bar for when they get because middle school and high school is tough. It is for everybody. And everything you do when they're young and in elementary school is preparing them for that moment. And if you let them do whatever they want and you don't challenge them or you don't let them deal with adversity when they're young, and all of a sudden stuff hits, it's too late. Like it's really too late. And uh that'd be one message I would have for parents is you have all this opportunity when they're young, you are setting the groundwork and the framework for when things get hard. So really take it seriously and think about uh begin with the end in mind.
Process Over Rings
SPEAKER_01It's funny how even at like the top level, so we look at like NBA and how there's like that trickle-down effect all the way through to high school and youth sports. And I am speaking a little bit out of ignorance to this story, so if I have details a little bit wrong, I apologize. But I saw like Jalen Brown recently said, and I didn't see the full quote, but he said this was one of his like like favorite seasons, one of the most successful seasons, even though they lost in the first round, um, as uh favorites. And I saw a lot of people coming out of the woodworks and kind of you know coming after him for this take. And he may have said something else individually, I'm not sure. But to me, I think the premise of it you don't have to win a championship for it to be like a successful season. Like to me, that is like something that should be more of the dialogue, is it doesn't have to end in a championship for it to be the only thing that matters. And if you don't win a championship, you can still have really good things come out of that, and maybe more important things long term for your success individually or for your life than to win a championship. And it's the media mongering that trickles all the way down from the highest level to these younger levels where it's like the only thing that matters is winning, the only thing that matters is a championship. And I'm also on the side like outcomes matter, they do matter, yeah, but they're not the only like that's not the only thing, and that's not how you get there by just making that the only thing that matters.
SPEAKER_00It's you know, it's the Saban quote, the process is the prize, right? I mean, we've made the trophy the prize, and yeah, like you said, we all want to win. I mean, you play games to win that that's natural, that's good, that's human nature. But I mean, we we also have teams where you don't have enough talent to win it all. You know that going in. Your job as a coach is to get the most out of the team that you have. How do you you know what what's gonna make a great team for us? How can we get the most out of them? How can we be great teammates? How can we support others? And some of the most rewarding seasons you have, you don't win a championship. I mean, it's yeah, it's a again, it's society doesn't help kids in this manner. When we focus on the individual, we focus on the championship and and winning at all costs, and it's so much more than that. And so I appreciate a guy like Jalen Brown saying that. I mean, Giannis has had quotes like that too. Um, you know, where he I remember he had that one where he a reporter asked a question, he went right back to the reporter and said, you know, so if you don't get a big raise this year, did you fail as a reporter? Yep. I mean, you know, if you didn't get that promotion you wanted, did you fail? No, it's it's the journey. You you need to do the right things and stay consistent in the journey. And that's what success is. I mean, I love that's why I love John Wooden's quote on success peace of mind and the self-satisfaction that you did everything you could to be the best you could possibly be. That's success, whether you're a team or an individual.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it is such an important conversation because there's all these dichotomies, right? And there's these tension between different virtues and understanding that outcomes do matter, but like you said, there's so much more than just the you know individual outcome. The I I like using the NBA as an example. Giannis has won one championship, Nikola Jokic has one, they've been part of teams that won one championship. And so when you go back and evaluate some of the best players to have ever played the game, you know, you look at guys who never won a championship who are some of the best players to ever play the game. Is every single season a failure? Like, is Chris Paul a failure? Is Charles Barkley a failure? Yeah, and you know, I think basketball is an interesting one because even the guys who have won championships have a little bit more of an ego. And I think of you know, some of the role players, right, that have like championships that speak as if their championship is more important than some of these other guys who don't have it. I just I think it's a very interesting conversation, particularly in basketball, that I don't think is fully truthful, and nor do I think is relatively healthy for the rest of the generations in terms of like ring culture, championship, it championship or bust, you know, individual accolades, you know, get in your bag, whatever the terminology they use these days. I don't know if that's outdated or not anymore. But like it's just you know, there has to be a you have to strike it properly, the balance between outcomes, the balance between process and the important things that go into it all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one 100%. And again, these are things that society pushes on kids and it filters down to high school and younger, and then we end up having to deal with that. I mean, why do you think there's so many high school coaches getting fired at at schools? Like it's because there's this pressure being put on them to do things that aren't reasonable and not what you know really the purpose of high school sports are about, and and that comes from this external pressure from from society. So yeah, I mean, I don't know the solution to it other than to keep talking about it and and hope that you know wisdom prevails. I I think you know in that topic why school leadership is so important too. Um, you gotta know the why. You gotta know the big picture of sports and and and what really matters. Um, because it's not just about winning.
Hot Takes Versus Real Conversation
SPEAKER_01I do have a belief, like I'll focus on kind of like sports media here for just a brief moment, because I I relate it to like long form writing. I think short form like does really well, like because of TikTok, Instagram, and all the immediate gratification that you know we have uh adopted here recently, it's that quick dopamine hit. But when you read something really long form that's really good and it hooks you and engages you, you will read that full thing regardless of how long it is. And I have a belief that in the the media sector and the sports world, that will change too, particularly as I see more podcasts, more channels emerging of people actually having articulate conversations about X's and O's, but also about more so of the other things that are important in sport that we're talking about, and seeing that those things are starting to rise a little bit and start to take away from the hot take media a little bit. And so I do have a belief that it will swing back. I do think it'll take time. You know, obviously it's impossible to predict time, but I believe that it will hopefully overtake some of the nonsense that's spewing out, and in particular, listening to some of the most successful athletes and coaches of all time talk about what's currently going on isn't the solution. It isn't good, it isn't healthy, it isn't sustainable. And hoping that those things trickle down over time and then begin a new wave of okay, hey, let's be about the right things, let's be about the team, let's go back to practice. We don't need to play a thousand games, we can protect the athlete for their longevity and develop them in the right way. And so I do think that just human nature biologically, I think that we will transition back to the more dense information as opposed to the quick hits.
SPEAKER_00I I agree with that. I think everything is cyclical, history rhymes, and you go too far in one direction, and society has a way of rebounding on that. I I think of, you know, and it kind of fits with this, but like go education on you a little bit, you know, test scores, state test scores. Do you I mean, kids could care less about testing? We have over-tested our kids as this generation gets older and they get into decision-making roles and then become politicians. I can guarantee you that testing's going away. You know, like they don't they know the value isn't there, and that's that quick hit external win type of mentality that is not accurate. I, you know, you have kids. Would you rather have a teacher that instills a love of learning in your child and a place where your kid loves to go to school and can learn to be a great person and also learns how to read and write and do math along the way? But you know, those other skills are really important, and that's no different than being on a team and in youth sports. Like, I do think um generations react to what happened in front of them. And I I agree with you on that.
SPEAKER_01It's funny, I think of like educational things with like tests, and I joke with like people around me. Like when I was in second grade, I think I won two spelling bees, and like you get so excited about like the outcome, and like my parents would peg me as this really smart kid. I was like, Do you think anyone gives a crap I won two spelling bees when I was seven years old? Yeah, you know, it's more about you know, learning if I, you know, the times I didn't win the spelling bee, willing to come back and work harder. Like, that's like the things that we should have been, you know, celebrating. And uh, it's it's funny to just see how stark of a difference, you know, between my parents and and myself. And we'll talk and they'll be like, Well, we did this with you, and you turn out all right. I'm like, honestly, we're lucky I just had strong genetics. Like, you know, I was like, there's a lot of things that you that we did in terms of celebrating the wrong things that I just uh hate now that I'm like, that is not the right thing. We cannot be saying those things, we cannot be rewarding those behaviors because those are fickle, those are fragile, those will break. And I watched it happen with me, you know. As I climbed to a higher level and it got harder, I had to learn the hard way. And fortunately enough, like I had the and honestly, a lot of it I say is like I had just the genetic wherewithal to endure the the pain and just refuse to. I just honestly, I just had this like this natural something inside of me. I was like, I'm just not gonna quit. Like, I just I can't be known as a quitter, and I had to figure it out the hard way and I had to break old patterns, and it's completely shifted the way I operate with with anyone, not even just my kids, but anyone is learning how to break those those old patterns. And I'm sure there's things I I know there's things I do wrong, but just you know, also like having that humility with it to understand, like at least you know, I'm about getting it right, you know, it's not about being right. I just want to get it right and just that curiosity and learning okay, what's the best way to do this? And I think we've strayed away from that as a society. I see it kind of working its way back, and I want to be part of the the solution of working its way back.
Why Kids Need Freedom
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and how many, how many parents today try in in those stressful situations that you're talking about, are trying to fix it for their kid? Like, you know, like my generation, we we just went out and played, like good or bad, we had to solve our own problems along the way. And you need parents, you know, some of the problems that happened probably needed to be avoided, but that process of going out and playing and and not having everything be structured and parents watching over everything, you know, that gave us a lot of skills that kids today don't necessarily have, too.
SPEAKER_01To your point, I read this amazing article. I wish I could remember who wrote it and what it was, but just about like the importance of freedom. Oh, you know who it was? I think it was Steve Magnus and Brad Stoolberg. They also co-authored a book together.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01But I read uh I read it in newsletter of theirs that was so good, just about the freedom that athletes and kids need to have, and that actually, like when you look at like the statistics, like the biggest fear that they talk about parents have is like something happening to my kid or getting abducted, or one of these things, and it's actually at like a historical low the last like 20, 30, some years of those things happening, and it's just this you know, un your irrational phobia that we've developed as a society when in reality is kids need those freedoms. I think about that. I'm like, that's one thing my parents did really well is I left the house and was gone all day, yeah, and then came back. And I'll say we might well, my kids are still really little, so I'm not gonna let my four-year-old and two-year-old run outside. But as they get older, I could see like me wanting to be like, hey, no, you can't do that for fear of XYZ. But in reality, is like they need that freedom, they need to be able to go do those things, make mistakes, get you know, get hurt, you know, fall off their bikes, whatever it is, yeah, lose in a pick-up basketball game, and then learn how to deal with those emotions. And so, you know, I it's just one of those amazing things that I read that I just like hit so home. It was like a realization for me, is like, oh, that's something for me. I'm gonna have to fight is because I want I have this innate desire to protect my particularly my girls. I don't think it'll be as hard for me with my son. I think I'll be able to kind of let him go, but my girls will be really, really hard, and I'll be like, no, like they need it, they need to develop that robust personality.
SPEAKER_00And and even more as much with your boys, you want your girls to develop that mentality that they you know can overcome anything. Yes, like that, that's so critically important, especially with with girls, and I think like why sports for girls are so valuable because they get put in those situations.
Culture Principles For Young Coaches
SPEAKER_01Going back to some of your foundational principles that that you were talking about, what would your advice be to young coaches entering, you know, into their first time as a head coach, regardless of level? But how do they begin to kind of establish principles that they can live by as a coach?
SPEAKER_00I think you you really have to think about culture with everything that you do. Um, I think you need to define culture. I I define culture as what you culture is what you allow, culture is what you emphasize, and culture is every day. But as a coach, you have to know that every decision you make impacts your culture. And your culture is really what your program is, and and it needs consistency. My newsletter tomorrow is about uh my very first year coaching, 27 years old. I was, you know, a young head coach. I replaced a Hall of Fame basketball coach in in Lake City, and uh it was how I had to kick out the our best player out of practice one morning. Um, never done it. I'm 27 years old, but you know, he's a real talented kid, wasn't always a great practice player. We had an AM practice, and you know, everything kind of worked through him because of the type of player he was, and he was off and he was starting to impact other people, and um, I just kind of had enough, and uh, it was a standard defining moment, and it was a culture defining moment, right? Um, I mean, that decision, I mean, I had a good relationship with him. It he came back the next day, everything was better, but you know, that really set the track for our program and our culture moving forward. Um, but that's what culture is, and you got to make those decisions, and you got to think of everything that you do, what you allow, impacts your culture. And so I think as a young coach, you really got to think about that. And I also think the leadership piece, um, you're only gonna be as good as your leaders are, um, whoever, and know who your leaders are. Your leader is not your best player, your leaders are the players that have the most influence on your team. And you have to know who that they are, you have to develop a good relationship with them, you have to have trust with them. And you know, your leaders will either pull people up to a standard or they will get sucked down to the mediocrity of the group. And so as a coach. I always viewed it as my leaders have to pull people up to a standard. How do I get them to do that? Um, because if not, peer pressure always wins. You know what I mean? And and and that's leadership. You can look at every team every year, and and that's what happens. Who wins? Do your leaders win by pulling people up, or does peer pressure pull leaders down to mediocrity? And I think that kind of defines the leadership of every team every season.
Empower Captains To Lead
SPEAKER_01What were some of the things that you did to help empower those leaders to pull the group up?
SPEAKER_00You know, a lot of conversations I would hand out. You know, I created my whole team leader OS, and it's really a combination of things that I've done over my career to help, you know, develop and build leaders. Um, you know, I I tried to develop relationships with leaders where they could come talk to me because I wanted them to put out the little fires. I wanted them to deal with the things in the locker room. I didn't, that wasn't my job. It's like I don't want to solve every issue for our team. I will if I have to, but I know that if I could coach them into solving a small issue, it's gonna make them better, it's gonna make us better, it's gonna make our team better. So I remember a story of a uh, you know, a leader having the trust in me, one of our captains, that there was something going on in the locker room with a guy. It was some type of conflict. And he came to me to ask how to deal with it. And I coached him through it and I talked him through it. And I said, you know, try this, try that, you know, and then check in with me. Let me know how it went. And he he would have that conversation. He came back and you know, I coached him through how to be a leader, you know, having that, and and that I could have dealt with it as a coach, but then what does that do to your team and your culture when you have to top down everything? And if I can get, you know, kids to learn how to grow and develop that way, it made us better, it made him better, it made our team better. So it's to me, it's those type of conversations, it's laying out expectations of what is leadership. I would give out a team leader roadmap every year to my my leaders, which had, you know, seven things that are really important for you to do as leaders. And we would come back and we would revisit them. Um, and so to me, you know, it's these type of conversations you have with kids that are so important. You know, you're molding kids with every conversation. So you're teaching them how to lead with every conversation you have. It's not, I mean, a a curriculum, a program can help set a foundation, but I mean, it it's the conversation you have with the kid that that really grows. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
Honest Role Conversations
SPEAKER_01What like when it comes to the hard conversations, how do you handle those? How do you tell a kid, hey, you're moving from a starter to the bench? Hey, you're you've been in a bench role, you've been getting a lot of time, but hey, you're you're not gonna get as many minutes, if any, at all, moving forward. Hey, you're a guy that makes the team, but you're probably not gonna play for us this year. How do you handle those conversations and the pushback you may get?
SPEAKER_00It's honesty, transparency, and empathy. There's no other way around it. Like when you try to sugarcoat it, when you try to promise something to someone that isn't true and it doesn't happen, you lose all trust. I think with almost every player on a team, they just want to know. Okay, it it they it might not be what they want, but if you're honest and open and transparent with them, they're more able and willing to accept it. And you don't want to BS your way through it. You you just want to lay everything out. Um, you know, so at the beginning of the season, I would have a pre-meeting with all of the kids and I would talk through and I'd ask them. I mean, we did a I did a handout where I got a lot of information, so I kind of know where they're thinking going into the season. And I'd ask, you know, if we had a a game tomorrow, where do you see your role? And, you know, they would share that. And then if my vision of their role was different or the team's vision of their role was different, we'd have an honest conversation. Um, but then on top of that, as you define roles for kids, you also have to let them know what they need to do to change their role or improve their role. You got to have some hope in there, right? And development in there. Um, but I I think young coaches are afraid sometimes to have honest conversations with kids and it backfires all the time. Um, but you have to be empathetic too. You can't just be blunt. So it's this it's this balancing act why communication is so important um in all aspects, whether you're dealing with parents or kids, you know, coaching is communication, leadership is communication.
SPEAKER_01And what I do now, there'll be times where kids will like ask me for favors with some of my connections and coaches, hey, can you talk to this person about getting me recruited or whatever it is for an easy example? Then there's times where I have to be honest and reflective to them and be like, hey, my word is only as good as my word. If every single kid that asked me to go get Pitt or Bucknell or whomever, wherever I have connections now to recruit them, then my word would mean nothing. And then when I gave a recommendation, it would have no weight. And so there's times where I have to have a conversation with some younger athletes, more so about like the behavioral aspect where it's like, you know, uh we're we are not where the work ethic needs to be. We are not making the character decisions that is required given what you want to accomplish or what you want to achieve. And putting them in the situation, if you were in my situation and you saw behaviors X, Y, and Z, would you put your neck on the line for this? And I think one of my favorite things from a coaching perspective that I've seen is, and a lot of this always goes back to basketball. I think there's so many great teaching moments in basketball is a coach had the players dictate their starting five for a game, low pressure game, you know, it was non-section, whatever it was. Hey, you guys, we can't figure out who the starting five is. You guys determine who the starting five is for night coach walks out of the room. You guys come out when you're ready to go take the court. And it's one of my favorite things because now kids have to see what their peers think of them in relative to the team. And what do we actually think collectively is the best starting five and then the best rotation in order for us to win games, and now we have to solve it. And then it also gives them a perspective of how hard it is for a coach to figure out that same thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you gotta be a truth teller. I mean, I I write about that a lot that coaches are some of the last true truth tellers for kids. Um, parents, I think today's parents in particular, are for many of them, it's it's hard to be honest with a kid. You know, they want what's best for a kid, and they maybe tell them things that aren't true or build them up in an, you know, and and between teachers and and coaches, coaches have to be truth tellers, they have to be honest. And uh yeah, you're only as good as your word without question. I think that's um so important.
Control The Controllables
SPEAKER_01I think we have a lot of conditional athletes, they can only perform when everything's going right. You know, we we don't have enough athletes who are able to perform when things are going wrong. And I like to reverse engineer that process and be like, hey, if everything is going wrong, how can we perform and how can we write the ship? How can we put ourselves in the mental, physical, and emotional state where everything is going wrong? It's the worst case scenario, and yet you still have to bring yourself out, you still have to go out and perform. And we work too much from best case scenario, not enough from worst case scenario, and how to engineer that performance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's about controlling the controllable. There's you know, there's only so many things you can truly control. And if you shift your mindset to what you can control, um, you know, I just saw a video and uh it was Steve Kerr talking to Steph Curry, and Steph Curry wasn't having a good shooting game, and he pulled out the stats and he showed him what his plus-minus was that game and the impact that he was having on the game, even though he wasn't shooting well. And kids need to know that like you're not gonna succeed every time that you do something, but you can impact others, you can impact the team, you can impact the group in so many different ways, and uh that's really what being a team made is all about. And uh, how can I impact others for the good of the group?
What Retirement Leaves Behind
SPEAKER_01What do you think you're gonna miss most about coaching?
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, obviously the the relationships, the connections with kids is a big part that I'll miss. I think the I love the competition. I'm a very competitive guy. I love to I love the challenge of figuring out how to win a game. You know, I mean that ultimately I I that's what I love about sports is you teach people how to compete. I don't mean by competing to win, but competing with yourself, competing to bring out the best in people. And you're you are trying to win. That doesn't mean that's the end all be all, like we talked about, but I love competition. Um, because it brings out the best in people if you do it right. Um, I'm gonna miss that. I'm gonna miss building a team. You know, there's something special about having those guys get together day one and purposely trying to build a tight-knit, cohesive team working together for the better of the group to achieve, you know, together what you could not do individually. Like I I love that, and I'm gonna miss that. So, you know, between the relationships, the the game, the competition, and building a team, those those are the things that I'll miss the most. Um, I'm not gonna miss the grind of it all. Um, I'm an all-in type of guy. And so when I'm coaching, I'm I'm putting my heart and soul into it. And you know, I I think when you burn the candle that hard, sometimes you need a break on occasion. And I've got so much going on with my other stuff and things that my wife and I want to do, and my kids want to do that um I want to be able to do some of that stuff too. So the timing is right for me. I am totally at peace. Um, we had a tremendous run and tremendous memories and experiences that I'll never forget. Um, but when you know, you know, and that's what I've kind of told people. And um, I'm looking forward to do other things too.
SPEAKER_01Awesome.
Where To Find Greg’s Work
SPEAKER_01Well, hey, I appreciate you coming on, man. It was awesome to get you back on and um you know have this conversation now now that you're a retired coach, you know, it's uh a pretty cool feature. But hey, tell us tell us the things that you're working on, and how can we get access, you know, to everything that you're working on? How can people reach out to you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm still you know posting and writing every day on X, and I've created a lot of products really for coaches. Um I guess if you if you go to great teamsbetterleaders.com, uh you're gonna find my newsletter, you're gonna find products, resources, anything that you're you're looking for, I would point people to that. On Twitter, I'm just my handle's my name, so it's at Greg Berg uh with an E on the end. Um, you know, and that's I'm gonna keep doing that. I I love that. And I'm what I love is I can still stay connected to coaching, I can still impact a wider audience. Um, we've got programs for schools that ADs can use, got you know, products for coaches, and and I I love that part of it because I I get a lot of DMs, I get a lot of messages from coaches all over the country, and I love helping you know, new coaches out in particular. Um, our kids need great coaches, and they're getting harder to find. And anything I can do to help build better leaders, better coaches, I'm gonna do that. So, you know, I I really appreciate you having me on, and I I love following you, Colin. And man, I couldn't believe it was what four years ago when we first did this. A couple years ago, four years ago. It's been a big it was it was further, it was longer than I expected. I guess time flies is the message. Um three years ago, I think it was. Yeah, so that's that's crazy. But no, um, yeah, I uh appreciate all that you do and uh looking forward to watch um you know your podcasts and everything that you do continue to grow and develop as well.
SPEAKER_01Hey, appreciate you, Greg. Awesome to get you back on. Um, listeners, thank you for tuning in. You know, tune in next week. Check us out at athleticfortitude.com. Reach out to Greg. You know, he's an awesome resource. Um yeah, five stars only, baby. Appreciate you, my friend.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, man. Take care.