Strong Beliefs, Loosely Held: How to Evolve Without Losing Yourself- Josh Chambers

Josh Chambers and I talk about why “unorthodox” often becomes the new standard and how the best performers find an edge by refusing to protect their ego. We connect sports stories to leadership, identity, and habits so you can adapt faster and build something that lasts. 

• a self-trained javelin story as proof that “impossible” is often just unexplored 
• why unconventional technique can create real competitive advantage 
• frameworks with flexibility as a better model than rigid dogma 
• the difference between being right and getting it right 
• identity and ego as hidden barriers to growth 
• adapting to new environments when levels change in sport or career 
• the skill of starting over and thinking in longer time horizons 
• leadership as math plus culture and finding edge in small decisions 
• how Maryland simplifies communication to reduce confusion under pressure 
• what a director of process does and how “process” shows up daily 
• habits as a river and how leaders influence boulders stones and pebbles 

Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week. Check us out, athleticfortitude.com. Download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Five stars only, baby. 

Transcript

The 100-Yard Javelin Lesson

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I've recently gotten like fascinated with track and field. Uh I read about this javelin, spear spear throwing, javelin throwing, I think it's called. Yeah, javelin. And it was like he he he was self-trained off YouTube and he threw a javelin a hundred yards. And I was like, that doesn't sound real. And so I I dug deeper into it. Like I researched this guy, looked him up, watched the like the clip on YouTube, and I was like, I've never I don't know if I've ever, like, at least in uh, you know, decades, like seen a human do something I didn't think was possible. You know, like throwing something a hundred yards, that just sounds like ridiculous. It just sounds made up, right? And then I got you go into his story, and there's a lot of good lessons in it. It it basically like, you know, he he trained his whole life for this event, and he was from like no money, then he didn't even have a trainer, like he was just watching YouTube in a coffee shop and would go out and try with like different objects or whatever, and built this like muscles that basically like no one else had thought to build because he was throwing it a certain way, and like part of that, part of that form, uh, which leads me back to like just the leadership lessons or self-growth lessons, was he wasn't afraid to fall down when he threw. And I think that up until that point, that was like embarrassing or like poor form, no pun intended. Like people just didn't do that, and you can understand why. Like you're you're competing, you know, you you want to probably keep your stance. And so he was like literally throwing all of his momentum and even like his center of gravity off balance and launching this thing, and he ends up breaking the record. And but it was just such an interesting concept, and like so much of track and field, I think, has little nuggets like that, where it's these controlled events, but there's such a like deeper edge to be found in some of these athletes who are you know either specializing in that or maybe have like kind of like you mentioned, no prior experience and they kind of just stumbled into it, and because of you know how they're wired or or some advantage from their environment, they were able to become one of the best in the world at it. And I just think that's a that's an awesome, it's an awesome sport I was never really exposed to that. I've learned a ton about over the last couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

I love athletes that kind of like shack or break shackles. Like I think of like a guy like Scotty Scheffler, like nobody would teach his swing. Like, and he's the best golfer in the world, he's the best golfer we've seen since Tiger Woods, and his feet shuffle like crazy every time he swings, he falls out of his swing. Nobody would teach golf that way, and yet he's the best in the world. And honestly, I think of a guy like Steph Curry. Nobody would have taught shoot the ball from you know 40 feet away, and he's just relentless. He can't even dunk, or he can dunk, but not very well, and he's 6'4. And I love athletes that come in and just kind of change the dynamic of sport by doing it a different way. Yeah, like that's the epitome to me of like human nature is like we just we view something as impossible, and then it just gets broken, and then it becomes possible for the next person. And

Unorthodox Greatness In Modern Sports

SPEAKER_01 3:04

that is like what is so cool about sports. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

It's funny because Steph, uh like I shoot like Steph, but it was before Steph, you know, like I was actually a decent shooter, like in high school, middle school, but you know, everyone will criticize your form. Hey, you're not doing like what you're saying. Like, there's so much urgency, or like there's so much influence at that age to to get it more traditional, you know, whatever it is, whether how you shoot, how you write, how you talk, how you like everything is is and there's I get it, there's value in that. Like there's a structure to things that are are more efficient or will we pay longer term dividends. And then there are things that are kind of based on dogma or just you know, human belief that aren't really like if you go back upstream enough and look at the why, like why do we say this? Well, the science or data doesn't really support that, right? It just it just kind of it was a game of telephone over years, and now we have new information. And and so like Steph's release is a great, like a great uh example of that, right? It's it's maybe not especially 10, 15 years ago, it was not it was unorthodox and it was not practical, and there were all of these like perceived negatives, but it's also like those perceived negatives are what make it so great, like right, like it's such a quick release. Like he's uh he can get it off over taller defenders because it's it's almost unexpected. Like there's just so many positives to it that come from these perceived biases, which I think is is an interesting point. About uh, and then like I joke, I could have been Steph if no one messed with my shot, man. Like I was I was doing that stuff in in in junior league and in church league, man. I'm an awful shooter.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

I uh I love operating like in frameworks,

Frameworks With Freedom To Adapt

SPEAKER_01 4:44

but within those frameworks, there has to be a ton of flexibility. Yeah, like you you want to have flexibility or you want to have structure, you want to have frameworks, but within those, there has to be flexibility, customization, adaptability because everybody's a little bit different, and you can't be so rigid that you don't allow for expansion or nuance for specific individuals. And we're becoming, I you know, I do think the pendulum's swinging back, but we've become a hyper-specialized, hyper-focused society. And I think it's starting to shift back. I think enough of these conversations and people who have the experience are coming out and like speaking against like some of the specific specialization, but to enable guys to really take advantage of like who they are and their specific skill sets. And I partner with a golf facility, a power golf performance out in Las Vegas. Joe Brown is the golf performance coach. And what really latched me on to them is when yeah, I just went to him for a lesson. My my dad has a house out there, he's literally right down the street. And so I went out there and like got a lesson from him. And like naturally, as like a football guy, my swing's gonna look different. And what was really cool, he's like, he's like, listen, he was like, you cannot train your golf swing to be like a golfer. He's like, you are a different type of athlete, you have a different swing mechanic, you've played different sports in the past that have built a certain like you know, skill set that you have, and you have to work within the framework of that skill set. You can't try and make your swing look like Tiger Woods. He's like, you have to make your swing look like what is capable within the framework of your body. And I had just never seen that approach to like such a specific skill sport. I was like, I like this guy, he's different. And I saw it within my own swing just the improvements that I made at such a rapid pace because you weren't trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

But yeah, it's

Getting It Right Vs Being Right

SPEAKER_00 6:35

uh that's so interesting. I think I've become less triggered by whether someone's right or wrong, and more interested in whether or not their opinion is educated. And so, like, I might disagree with you, but if you have an educated opinion, I like that's I love that. We're gonna jam, like, we're gonna be good friends because I think uh like what we're talking about essentially is this contrast or this tug of war between being right and having been right, right? There's a uh difference. Like it's it's great to strive to be right. I think everyone shares that innate human trait. Like that's just you're gonna be more successful if you're right more than wrong, right? If you're striving to have been right, hey, your swing, that ain't it, man. I I gotta, I gotta, like, we gotta scrap it, you know. Let's disregard all like if you're coming to an argument or a problem and you're assuming you have the answer immediately without the education or the research or the data or some level of why behind it, then that's you're you're you're wanting to have been right. Like you're pushing that square peg through a round hole. That's the that's the crux or the the the resistance we all face, right? Because part of it is ego, but part of it is like we are back to my evolutionary point, like we are all better if we're right than if we're wrong. And I think there's a perception piece of that too. Like you want to be perceived as right more than wrong. So if there's all of these incentives to be right, you have to kind of kind of audit against yourself in that you're gonna be wrong sometimes and push back on that, right? Like that objective statement, like, hey, I I said the answer was six, it was seven. Uh, let me waste energy and time um trying to really push six on this problem, right? Because it's hard to swallow that pride pill of, oh, I was wrong. Let me research why I was wrong. Where did I go wrong in my approach? Okay, that makes sense. That's the difference, right? So that you can be right going forward versus pulling the strings that are easily and readily available for having been right. I think it's such a you see it with athletes, you see it with coaches for sure. I think any any industry where there's really delayed feedback, you can't get that instant gratification or instant uh signal and a lot of noise involved, you you you lean on that prior belief or upbringing that has, you know, so comfortably been there for you to lean on in the past. And so you can go into a training session or or you know, coaching or a huddle or a classroom, and you can have this like dogma about everything you do, and it's just not productive. And and there and that's not to say you can't like do an effective job. Like, I think all of this is, you know, a continuum of some sorts, but uh I think can a productive job is a static, you know, it's a that's a that's a very frozen-in-time statement, right? A pr a productive job over the course of a year, over the course of 10 years, over the course of a career, do you lead other people to do productive jobs? Like now there's a multiplicity effect to it. I think that's a uh an interesting case for the need to be open-minded as well, and and kind of sounds like your swing coach. It's not uh unorthodox is probably has a negative connotation, but like orthodox is really just based on the constraints of of our history and what's going on in the current environment, right? And sometimes those variables change, right? Steph Curry broke every record you can for three-pointers. Well, that was unorthodox at the time, but the three-point shot is objectively a better shot. It just took the implementation of it in the 1970s and then 30 years of human behavior to adapt it for that to become normal, right? Like now we we watch a game and it's you're you're kind of surprised if you see a wood-to or a layup. You it's mostly like kick out, shoot threes. So that's that's just an example, I think, of that. Like, and you and like you said, it's all cyclical. Like that coach coming to the table with a different approach that may be thought of as unique, and maybe 10 years from now, that's that's how every coach is doing it, right? And then maybe 20 years from now, we get back to a more rigid and and strenuous. And like you said, they all serve some purpose. It's just figuring out whether that purpose relates to your current environment.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

One of my favorite mental frameworks to talk about on the podcast is you know, strong beliefs loosely held and the ability to focus on getting it right. Not being right, but getting it right. And so to have the conviction in your beliefs, but also have the humility to grow and learn. And that if I have access to new information, that there's a better way or that there's an evolutionary thought of what I'm currently doing, or that my previous way of doing something was wrong, I'm gonna adapt and adopt the new information that is presented to me. And that is something that has changed the way I work in my own environment and how I interact with with people. And to your point earlier, like as long as you have like some form of like educated opinion, you're willing to have a dialogue, you and I, I don't care if we disagree, we're gonna get along just fine.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah. I I I love that. That's uh we see it all the time in our history, and I'm sure when you were playing, it was prevalent as well. I think to say that and have and like put that in action takes a level of egoless identity, or the maybe a better way to say it is the ability to remove your identity or leave your identity

Identity Shifts When Levels Change

SPEAKER_00 12:16

behind. And in our industry, like I know you're aware of all the rule changes. Um, it's almost been cliche to talk about at this point, but NIL and transfer portal and five for five, like these are all buzzwords on some level, uh, just because of how how much you know mainstream media and and Twitter has talked about them ad nauseum. Um, they are real variables that have completely changed the game and the constraints that we operate with in college basketball, college football, and even ripple effects to other you know, sports or or or industries. I mean, agents, there's more agents ever than ever before now because there's more payable athletes, there's more deals, there's more, there's more lawyers involved now than ever before, because there's more contracts being like there's there's a bunch of uh there's a big butterfly effect from these rule changes. And so if that is true, which I think we would agree it is, that means that your ability to think more fluidly or have that element of let's figure out the best way to do it today, which might not have been the same as yesterday. Like if if rules are changing at such a fast cadence, let's say it's daily, let's say it's weekly, let's say it's yearly, whatever that is, that's largely interchangeable. It's just our perception of time, right? Then our ability to self-audit and reflect, hey, who I was yesterday, although it may have won that game, that is not gonna work in this game, right? And and I think that's a hard if you can get over that barrier, I think you're in a way better spot. But it's easier said than done, right? Because it means you have to admit that what you've built a career out of, what you've built a resume from, what you've built a reputation with is no longer effective. And that can be a little bit fear frightening, right? Like that can be, I think players face that more often than people realize. Uh you go up a level, you transfer up a level, you go from high school to college, you go from college to the NFL. They're look-look- I I I'm I've never coached in the NBA, but I've talked to a bunch of NBA personnel. They're not looking for the guy who scores 20 and takes 20 shots and gets to be on the billboard. Those guys, those billboards are already filled. Like they're they're good. They're looking for the guys that can come in and do the structural things that impact winning basketball games. And so if you're not able to go from, hey, I was the star on my college team and we went to the Elite Eight, to, hey, I might be the eighth guy on this roster. What does the eighth guy on the roster need to do to stick? And going back to my previous point about uh having a time horizon attached to it, I don't want a 10-day contract, I want a 10-year contract. So what does that look like? It probably looks like, all right, what does uh this team need for me and let me fill those voids, right? Like if someone's already taking 20 shots, you probably don't need to take 20, right? Do you need to take effective shots? Yeah, I think that that that's objectively true. But you probably need to do the things that those 20-point scorers are are not exerting energy on because they're so focused on the team the things that the team is paying them to do, right? And so making a leap like that, you can take any industry, right? Uh you could do that, you could say the same thing for going to law school. Like if you're if you're in your first day at a law firm or if you're you know in med school and you're shadowing, you know, there's gonna be some level of, hey, I was in this environment, I was the guy, or I did things uh this way. I I interpreted reality from this lens. Now I'm in a new environment. I don't think it makes sense to interpret reality with the same lens that you once had because you're in a different environment. And for lack of a better term or phrase, your perception is going to be reality. And if your perception is flawed, you will, I think, rub up against resistance and feel like you're not growing at the rate that is meaningful for you because you're not you're not dealing with values or variables close enough to reality.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

This is I'd

The Skill Of Starting Over

SPEAKER_01 16:18

love this conversation. And there's a number of different things kind of factoring in here at play. And so you look at you bring up the identity and the ego piece. And so you think about, hey, I've done something up to this point, and it's hard if you've built a fragile identity to say, like, oh, it's this no longer serves me. And you have to look at that ego piece and say, hey, is the reason I'm doing this if you're a coach to be right and this is for me and I'm trying to win for me? Or do I have a desire to create an ongoing impact on the players and coaches that I work with and provide an environment conducive to winning? And when you can separate kind of the identity ego pieces, is this really about me, or is this about serving a greater unit? And then the other part, the the fear, and I kind of relate it back to going zero to one, and you think you've spent all this time, all these years building a product or a team or a system that works and has worked. And now all of a sudden times change. There's new rules, there's new adversaries, and it's that feeling of, oh no, I have to go back from zero to one again. Usually that's just a facade in your mind. It's not really going from zero to one, it's just going from one to two, which is significantly easier than going to zero to one. But you have to be able to approach it with that work and say, okay, what levers can I pull to be more adaptable in this space so that I can continue to fulfill and do the things that I want to do. And it's the same thing with the athletes, like you were saying, like if you're a 20-point scorer in college, like you said, they don't need that in the NBA. They have a whole hoist of guys that can do that, but they don't have a ton of guys diving for loose balls, picking up, you know, 90 feet and you know, taking smart, efficient shots, being selfless, you know, being the hustle guy. And you have to, as an athlete, again, going back to that identity piece, it's what type of person do I need to be to continue to fill the dreams and the person that I want to be? And attaching value to that, characteristics, behaviors, and really understanding who do I need to be to serve this role. And then how can I expand and grow upon myself to get to the levels that I want to get to? And I love the time horizon piece that you said, because not everything is going to operate too on the time horizon exactly how you want it, but to be able to commit to a process longer and being willing to commit and change your process along the way to get to that 10-year time horizon that you want to get to.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah. It's the it's the skill of starting over, right? Like I was just talking to one of my buddies yesterday, actually, that he's a venture capitalist. He's been the CEO of several different companies. And uh he he he kind of just told me, hey, I like to get into industries I know nothing about. Like I want to be there for six or seven years. I want to climb the mountain, and I want to be able to go back down to a different mountain I've never seen before and climb it. I was like, wow, like that was kind of it kind of like staggered me. I was like, well, that doesn't really like because in this business, like that kind of sounds counterintuitive. And he just explained to me it's it's more of a long-term play, right? Um, he's he's attaching or rooting himself in the skill of I can go from zero to one better than anyone else. And so if that's a skill and we think that that has value in an ever-changing world where sometimes you don't have choice, like zero is what you're presented with, then that is the ability to go from zero to one to two to three. You're kind of ascending levels that other people aren't even thinking about because you're getting you're building that muscle of, hey, I built this, it's really good. Everything in my human nature says I should stay and derive resources from this and keep picking apples from this apple tree. But I am smart enough to know in a in a world uh that is almost bec has almost become inverse of our human nature because of civilization and how technology has advanced and just the way uh we've evolved as humans, then I should be aware of that skill set, grow that muscle. And why don't I take the apple from the apple tree and plant seven more apple trees? And now not only can I eat more, but people under me can eat more. And not only is that those are those people eating more, but now the entire garden is filled with apple trees, right? Like it's this uh net benefit or uh this total economic win where I think a lot of the times because we're competitive and and specifically you and I are from competitive industries, which is sports, we view things as zero-sum games. Like everything is a zero-sum game in football, and and you have one winner, you have one loser. Same thing with a basketball. Like I think that you can almost fall victim to the opposite of that, right? And and that's that's what's challenging with coaching right now, with playing right now, with the way that I think the modern landscape of sports and entertainment are set up is everyone wants zero to one really fast. You know, so you you feel pressure to once you get one, I gotta hold on to one. Like I cannot, and and sometimes you make decisions to let's hurry up and get to one because it's it feels like the short play, it'll get you there quicker, the shortcut. And it really isn't the the way to do it. But you that's not a that's not a failure on the leader, it's a failure on the system. Because you go you have two bad years in college basketball, you might not get a third year. You have a bad year as a freshman, as a player, you might be sent down. You know, that's just the reality of the business. And so having a a fear of or that threat which is which exists in how you operate on top of what we've talked about in terms of this biological design. To hoard or hold on to what you know. That's why I think I call it a muscle. There's probably a more scientific term for it, but if you can, like some people can move the earlobes because they figured out how to access that muscle. If you can figure out how to access that muscle and start doing reps with it, I think it prepares you for the change that is coming. And now you can drop you in any industry and you'll be successful, right? And I think I think a common denominator of some of the leaders I've been around, they have that trait. Hey, I've I I could be a car salesman, I could be a head coach, I could be the president of the United States, I could be the head of your church. Like there's just a muscle that has a direct tie to how well do you adapt, evolve, take information and remove your identity from it. And can you apply it to the people you lead and the problems that you're facing? And I think that's that's a superpower if you if you can kind of find an environment that rewards that. But again, that's hard to find because so much of this world doesn't, right? It's instant gratification. It's we need results now, or we'll get a new guy.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

What do you think the most important skill set to have as a leader

Defining Leadership As Found Edge

SPEAKER_01 23:15

is?

SPEAKER_00 23:15

I think you could answer that differently for your definition of leaderslash what the leadership role entails, right? Like a head coach is going to be different than the president of a company or a country. There are some, I think, overlap in all of those leadership positions. And so how I define that overlap is there is edge in every single decision you make. There is opportunity cost, there is a not to be, you know, too out there, but like there's a multiversal cost to all of decision making, right? For example, I I read about the LA Dodgers in a recent article on ESPN. They talked about how they are taking two planes on road trips. One of the planes has the players and staff, and then they send one plane with just the luggage. And it's because when the Dodgers play the Nationals, and that cross-country flight takes five and a half hours, it takes six and a half hours with all the luggage for that road trip, right? Like you have a hundred people's suitcases for a week long road trip. And so their thinking is we're gonna play in 42 road trips this year. How do we create edge in how we travel? How can we create 80 hours of found time in that problem, right? And so they're they're traveling obviously faster and now their their bodies are fresher, maybe they enjoy traveling more, they play better on the road. There's some measurable uh output in the you know production on the field. We would think objectively that that's sound like if you if you have to travel less, you're less jet lagged, you follow that decision tree down far enough, you probably can see some distinct advantage, whether it be, and I think that's another caveat I'll get I'll touch on, but it might just be microscopic. It might be a 1% gain, it might be less than 1% gain, but it's still a gain, right? And so with that in mind, I think doing a lot of things with math and science in mind are very important. The other part of that, and this is like more I consider myself more of like a behavioral economist than I do an analytics or statistics expert. But I do think there's a marriage between culture and math. And so I think when I say you can find edge or competitive advantage in every decision, I think that's what culture is, right? Your culture is either helping or hurting you. And a lot of culture is immeasurable, but you should see that that the influence, like I said, in the performance somehow, right? There's a there's a tangible gain to traveling with less luggage. Well, there's a tangible gain to Josh Chambers coming to work every day and loving his job, loving the people he does his job with and feeling like he's important and his work has meaning, and he sees that impact and that feedback loop is very evident. So I think leadership to me is maximizing both of those silos, if that makes sense. You're not only making data-driven and analytical decisions that are optimal, and you're living in the universe that is best for that decision relative to math and science, but you're also creating an environment that is the best possible universe for your followers, long-term growth so that they feel like they matter, their work matters. And again, like the plane flying from A to B, my production from A to B should be as efficient and as effective as possible. Well, how do you get that if all other things are constant? If my knowledge, my work ethic, my understanding of a play or how to recruit, if all of those things are constant, which they are on some level in the moment, then what determines the quality of the result? Well, it's the care of the human being that's under you. And so I think re I think leadership, again, it's different when you have uh different incentives or alignment or maybe agendas, depending on the the industry that you work in. But I think leadership to me is maximizing your decision making from some sort of data-driven approach. And that could be, hey, uh, I did it like this, it failed. I did it like this, it worked. That's data, right? That could be a collection of evidence that gives you some direction in how you should operate. And then also maximizing the people under you, growing them at a rate that paradoxically would make them very attractive to leave or get another job. But the paradox is because they feel that care, that love, that buy-in, that belief, and they're so directly attached to the outcomes, they don't want to leave, right? And they they that becomes almost like a dividends that you reinvest into the stock that you're holding. You take those gains and you reinvest them into the team that you're working for, the leader that you're following. That is my definition of leadership. Uh, just based off of my experience in sports and then things I've read and my background in economics and fascination with math and and science. Because I think all of those things are universally important and true relative to the concept of influence, which, if we boil it all down, leadership is influence.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

It's funny because a lot of your core beliefs that you're talking about are very similar to my own, and how the different components of in like different domains of life all are applicable and have overlap. Behavioral economics, entrepreneurship, leading a team, being a player within an organization, and all these things are coordinated.

Maryland’s Simplicity And Clear Standards

SPEAKER_01 29:12

What are you guys doing at the University of Maryland that enables you to hit on both of those tiles of data, math, and culture at a really high level?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

We're simplifying a ton. I think that's the problem most leaders run into when they take a job, or specifically to me, like I I, you know, I deal with players, but I also I have a son and a wife, and I like to think of somewhat of a leader of my home, a leader of maybe a group of friends, a leader of a group of players, a leader of my department. Like you're everyone's a leader, right? Um whether you're the head coach or you're the GA, you have some ownership accountability uh in what you're doing, and that makes that makes your uh that makes you a leader of that, whether it's yourself or others. There, those are those are interchangeable terms. Um and I think so, for example, what we do here, I think that may be different than elsewhere, or how we combat that is we try and take really complex things because life is complex, and boil them down into the least common denominator and simplify them in a way that can be retained and applicable to the masses. So what I mean by that is we're gonna have team rules, and they're not just gonna be for the players, they're gonna be for the entire team, the players, the staff, the janitors, the SID, the administration. Everyone who's involved in or has skin in Maryland men's basketball is gonna be aware of those rules. And we're gonna make them as simple as possible in order to connect them to the player, the coach, the staff member, whoever it is, to their emotion and to their cognition and to their physical actions as much as we can, right? And I think everything we do, there is some underlying why that may be a more nuanced conversation. And so, for example, back to what I was saying, what which might be an issue for uh me or you when we get a head coaching job. It's easy to say, hey, uh Colin, I want you to be more physical. Well, physical has uh a different definition depending on who you ask, right? And there's probably like in football, I I've never coached football. I'm a football fan, but if you say that to a player, it probably means like, hey, I need you to hit with more velocity, I need you to lower your pad height, I need you to uh wrap up when you tackle, I need you to uh fly around with like almost a disregard for your own body. Um there's all like there's probably like 19 things under that term physical. Okay, so what we're gonna do is let's take that term and reverse engineer it and get it down to its simplest first principles, core building blocks. And so like a term that maybe has less steps underneath it patience. Well, how we define patience is wait until it's time to do what you need to do. There's really that is what patience is, right? Like it's it's when that when that thought hits your mind or or across multiple minds, I think more often than not, you're gonna get less varying definitions than if you asked the teacher at the high school you went to and you're starting fullback, what does physical mean? Like you're gonna get maybe different countries, like you're gonna get way, they're gonna be on the other ends of the spectrum, potentially. And so again, going back to finding edge, we believe that our communication is paramount in how we teach and how we maximize in the things that we do on a daily basis. It's gonna make that A to B a lot closer to one another. And and again, going back to that flight analogy, um, we're gonna get there faster, we're gonna get there more refreshed, and that's gonna allow us to use those resources. Like that's the the other part of this, right? You create edge. Well, uh, what are you using that money you've now found on, right? You wanna take that and apply it to elsewhere where it may have more leverage or impact. And so I think here, Coach Buzz, our head coach, a lot of his genius and how he's built this culture and this environment that we work on is the the communication is extremely efficient. There's very little confusion. And then he's mastered the art of hey, you're gonna love being here, you're gonna love who you work with, and you're gonna feel like you're growing at a rate that you can't get anywhere else. And so anywhere else may come and they're gonna try and get you. But you're gonna know those three things. I know, I know who I am because the communication is so good. I know what my boss is requiring of me because the communication is so good, and I know that people care about each other because the communication is so good. And so I think it's a uh I could probably answer that question and and we could have a 10 hour conversation on every little thing that we're doing. But I think if you went to the top of the umbrella, we've done a really good job at turning complex into simple because I think when you're in an arena, when you're in an adverse situation, when you're in a problem, your mind goes to simple. What is my default response? Um, when you're sick, you just want to get better, right? You just you you lose your desire for, I need to buy this car, I need to post this on Instagram. If you have the flu, you're like, man, can I just rest and get better? Like that's your your goal. And so knowing that we're gonna be in a lot of adverse situations and storms, we need our default to be really good. Like our default has to be better than the opponent's default. Well, how do you streamline that? It's in your communication and then in your care.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Coach Buzz has talked about going from zero to one. He's built that skill set of going to different places and rebuilding those programs. What is it about him that you've learned from

Coach Buzz As A Program Builder

SPEAKER_01 34:56

working with him? Because you've been with him the last several stops, in terms of what is the the work that he does that enables him to be so good at building programs?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yeah, that's a good question. I so I'm under the belief that there's only so many skill sets, and we all have there's a million titles, but there's really only uh three or four skill sets, and then you kind of figure out what you're passionate about or what you're good at from those skill sets. And one of his, and one that I believe is a universally true skill set for everyone, is uh he's a builder, he understands the value of a solid foundation, both figuratively and literally. And so I think part of what's made his career so illustrious is he is really driven by the amount of people he can impact. And so how if you if you kind of go in reverse of that statement, the next logical thing or question you would ask is how many people or how can you impact the most people? Well, if you build one house, you can house, you know, 12 people, whatever. And that's great. And those people can live a great life, and and there's that's an absolutely awesome thing to do, right? If if we you and I went down and into a uh a less favorable area and built a home and gave it to someone, that's an awesome thing to do. Well, what if we went and built 10 homes, 100 homes, a thousand homes? Like, I think coach is really driven by that exponential path or curve of how many people can I impact? And this is not like a I wouldn't I don't even think you would say this consciously, but just me watching his behavior, he is motivated and derives energy from hey, I'm gonna build this home the right way so it lasts an eternity, so that everyone in this area, everyone who grew up a fan of Maryland, everyone who grew up a fan of Texas AM or in that region, everyone who's ever worked there, everyone who's ever played there, everyone who he interacted with at Marquette, I'm gonna build something that's sustainable so that when I'm fired or I I have to leave, that legacy lives on. Like those people can still yield fruit from that. And so I think that's an innate trait that he possesses that is not something necessarily he can turn on or off. I think you see that in how he interacts with people. I think you see that in his daily routines. I think you see that in maybe some of his quirks or the way he talks. Like anything, I think um, so much of our identity it permeates throughout our habits and our actions. Well, I think that's one that I think Coach Williams, it really influences his decisions, is he wants to build and help people. And so we've we've won a ton of games. And to be honest with you, like it's not like we get somewhere and we're set out and saying, hey, we're gonna be here six years and we're gonna take another job and build another house. We get there and we we're just focused on building, man. We're just focused on helping people, we're just focused on impacting, pouring into our student athletes. And at some point, there's an inflection point where we we determine that what we built here is is you know, it's sustainable and it's it's there's been a lot of fruit yielded for a lot of people. And a new opportunity arises where someone else may need him or his leadership. And when you're wired like that, when you're a servant leader, when you grade yourself or critique yourself based on how many people you impact in a positive way, sometimes those opportunities present themselves and make a lot of sense, right? And I think that's how he got from Marquette to Virginia Tech, how he got from Virginia Tech to Tech CNM, and then now we're at Maryland. And just to give you a real life example of that, he takes the job at Virginia Tech. I'm a senior student manager, and and I I'll be, I mean, obviously I'm biased, he's my boss, but I will, you know, speak for hours and on end about how much influence and how much he's built in my life that I could not have built without him. I mean, I met my wife in our my tenure with him. We've had a child in my tenure with him, and maybe I would have a wife or a son without Buzz, probably. But I don't think I would be the man that could convince my wife to marry me without having the influence of Coach Williams. And so for that, I'm super grateful. But I also think that's a that's a real life example. That's a uh we can almost take a segment of what does it mean to be a builder and say there should be some residue, right? Like there should be some. Well, I'm a living example or I'm living proof of that, the uh the benefits of him and the way he's wired and the way he's built at multiple different stops.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

That's awesome. Now, for you, director

What A Director Of Process Actually Does

SPEAKER_01 39:44

process, give me a little bit of insight. What is director process? What is your day-to-day and what are you doing every single day?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah, so I've workshot this answer a ton because obviously it can turn into a it's become a hot topic and kind of a polarizing title, believe it or not. But to me, process, well, first of all, I should say uh again, going back to just my thoughts on title and and skill sets, I think if you go upstream enough, uh, we're all problem solvers and there's only so many ways you can solve problems. And so those are skill sets, right? I think anyone's title, if you ask them, should be servant. You know, I think your your role is whatever the team needs of you. If you're if you're come if you would argue with that, I would just say you're out of yourself. You're you're all about yourself. You know, I would just say you just just say you're you're you're more worried about yourself, right, or your own growth, which maybe they are. And that's not like a negative, but if you're saying, hey, I'm I want to be about the team and uh what is my role with the team? Well, I would say it's it's servant, right? Uh the day-to-day is going to change because tomorrow's gonna demand something different of me than today based on that skill set, based on that yearning to solve problems, right? It doesn't make sense for me to be the offensive coordinator because my skill set is not as good in terms of calling plays or designing an offense as our current offensive coordinator. And I think the same is true for any role, right? You fall into the buckets or the pro set of problems that make sense and make it more efficient for you to solve, um, but that doesn't mean at some point, 10 years from now, Colin won't develop a new skill set that makes him better fit for a different role or title, right? Uh and so to me, process, it means the mechanics of approach. And I think you can apply that statement to a ton of different areas. And naturally, I think my job touches a ton of different areas. I work with players on their approach, um, both from a mental standpoint, a physical standpoint, an emotional standpoint. Are they is there a gap between who they think they are and who they want to be or who they think they are and what reality is? And can we shorten that gap based on something they're doing in the mechanics of their approach? Well, that's their habits, that's their mindset, that's their physical diet, that's their ear diet, that's their eye diet, that's the people they surround themselves with, that's the environment that they're in. And that's a good segue into probably the next part of my job is build an environment that facilitates the player becoming the best version of themselves in an efficient and effective manner. So what are we putting on the walls? How bright are our light bulbs? Where uh where is the practice gym in real in relation to our head coach's office? Is there a system to ensure that the players are traversing upstairs and having touch points with the coaches? I think all of these things would go into the category of helping the player get to the best version of themselves. And that's a mechanical process that basically I'm in charge of or slash responsible for helping ensure is running efficiently and not just with players, right? I joke about it, but it's true. When you have a coach has 108 years of experience with him on staff. So I've been with him 12 years. Our offensive coordinator, who I mentioned, has been with him 15 years. If you add up every single individual, we have a lot of continuity. So we're gonna teach a lot of timeless lessons to these players that we believe are gonna help them become the best versions of themselves. And as I mentioned before, they're gonna be the same or universally applicable to the coaching staff. But naturally, if you hear something 15 straight times, you're gonna maybe listen less on the 15th time than you did on the first time, right? Like that's a that's another thing as humans we have to combat. Like you, you, you, noise becomes signal can become noise if it if it's too consistent or too stale, so to speak. And so figuring out ways to keep um the staff engaged and growing at a rate that helps ultimately what I think mechanics and approach, the process of our organization is to get to become the best version of itself. So both the players, both the staff, both individually, both collectively. We want to get them from where we are now to where we hope to be tomorrow. A lot of what I do is quality. Control and communication based on how can we ensure those things are happening. As I mentioned, that kind of bleeds into a lot of different buckets. So I work a lot in operations, I work a lot in strategy, I work a lot in mindset coaching, I work a lot in different areas that maybe aren't even coined yet because we're trying to be different or or create uh areas of edge that other organizations aren't thinking about, right? So now the transfer portal is a thing. So I work a little bit in evaluation, right? I would say 10 years ago, uh the way our our evaluation system is set up is completely different than how teams were doing it 10 years ago. Um but again, it's a it's a it's a point of leverage that can help us get to where we want to be tomorrow. Um and so I think I think my role, if it I could summarize it best in an analogy or or figurative physical object, would be crowbar. Where can you create leverage in areas that doesn't exist but will help you lift something that's maybe heavier or more weight than someone could do alone or without that tool, right? So I handle a day just to get into your day-to-day piece to give you a rough idea, I'll just list off some of the things that I'm involved in and it'll kind of give you uh you know a better picture of of what I was just saying. But I I handle our scheduling because scheduling is so important to make the NCAA tournament based on the selection committee's criteria. So there's a there's a problem that needs some sort of process or mechanics or approach to solve. Okay. And then I'll just list some other things. I'm in our uh calendar meetings. So when are we doing things? Why are we doing them then? Does it make sense physically, emotionally, uh, mentally? When's practice? When's weights? When are we leaving? When is the plane leaving to go play Michigan? All those things. Offensive meetings, defensive meetings, special teams meetings, not to say, hey, I know what we should run, I know who should we should play, but I have a good enough relationship with Coach Williams. Otherwise, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be with him for 12 years. And then our our our staff, our offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, special teams coordinator, where when they have conviction and an idea, I can take that and say, hey, have you thought through this? This may be uh something that can aid in that. Can I make it 2% better? Can I serve them? Can I use one of my communication skills, whether it's Photoshop or Premiere Pro or even like going outside and hiring a third party and figuring out uh a piece of information that can make that process better tomorrow than it was today? I do I work a lot with our players in terms of their mindsets. And then that's both an individual task or relationship, but there's also a uh team component, right? Like the connection piece and the culture piece and the buy-in. And I'm a very big believer that we're talking about tribes when we talk about teams, and we're just using a different phrase, but I like to think of our group as a tribe, and so making everyone feel like they're included and important and growing at a rate that that makes sense for their long-term growth. Because I know as a human, yes, my job is important and yes, I care about the work I do. Um, but if I went up every set of stairs to the top floor of what drives me, it's when I lay my head down at night. Can I provide for my son and my wife? And uh, so my loyalty uh to them kind of is what ignites a lot of this passion and energy and ability to do it day after day at hopefully a high level. And so I know humans think like that because I think like that. And I so I I can apply that logic to our players. And so dealing with their mental states and trying to help them maybe be uh a little bit more or sleep a little bit better at night when they lay their heads down. Uh, I think I like to try to do that as best I can, knowing that I'm not gonna have all the answers, and it may involve bringing in um someone else or a group of individuals, or maybe it's just taking them out to lunch and and listening to them talk. I think Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that's a huge piece of of that portion of what I do. I could go on and on. There's a lot of different things where my job touches, but I wouldn't say I'm an expert in any of those areas. I just want to serve and help those areas get better. And hopefully if we have a mission statement or um there's a general consensus of who we want to be tomorrow, next week, a year from now, 10 years from now, based on Coach Williams' core beliefs and standards and things that he's not gonna negotiate on. I want to stay within those constraints and help us get there.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

What are the core problems that you're seeing right now on a more frequent basis that you may not have seen previously?

Identity Pressure In The NIL Era

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Uh a lot of identity issues, not having conviction in your decisions from the players and from staff, um, because this world is so different and it's so new, there's so many different variables that are threats to your way of life and going back to that family piece that can weigh heavy and you know it can lead to a fear of making the wrong decision. And I think because at this level, the the fear of perception is so strong, just because there's always a camera on you, there's a forum or a fan base that's microscopic uh on all the details and everything you're doing and know what you're doing before you even do it. And you live in almost this incubator or pressure cooker where every decision is is not only now is it heavy because of the people that are involved, it's heavy because you feel that heat a little bit. I think it can lead to some paralysis by analysis. And uh so I think the struggle is uh creating that conviction again. Like I mentioned the the limited skill sets that I think are actually tangible and evident, and you could probably categorize a lot of different skill sets into three or four different ones. I think communication is a big one. And so figuring out ways to communicate things that will help not only calm that person's anxiety, because I think that's part of the equation, but there's an outcome where that becomes a negative, right? If you tell someone what they want to hear, it may cause them to calm down, but it may be worse for them long term, right? So when you're when you're super mad or you know, someone, let's say you did something wrong and your ego or your natural response to that is to be vengeful or try to justify your actions. Well, if I approach Colin and say, Yeah, man, that guy was totally in the wrong, you were like, you should you should have you should have called him a loser. Like I I think he's a loser too. Like that would feel really good to you, right? But that's not gonna help, that's not gonna serve you in the long run. Yeah, in the long run, right? And so um I think we we touched on it briefly, but those those feedback loops being so distorted now, uh, where the long run is an abstract concept, it's it's sometimes it takes a level of intention and thought and using different

Habits As A Raging River

SPEAKER_00 50:46

mediums. I'm a I'm a I have a uh just a general belief that humans are they're out they're determined by their outcomes, which are determined by their habits. And so I I use this illustration of our habits are a raging river and they're flowing from our upstream. Let's call it, let's call it upbringing bay, where that riverbed is, where the the source of water starts. That's where we grew up, that's how our parents raised us, that's who we were around, that's who our pastor taught us to act in certain situations. That's what our third grade teacher said is right and wrong. All of those things in those, you know, transformative years, that information that we take in that we're not necessarily developed enough to filter or build, you know, processes or mental frames around in our own, in our own vision. Those things kind of travel with us to our adult version, right? Our adult uh iteration. And now we're living in that world, right? What you and I, every day, we have routines and habits that we do that if you traced back far enough, you would get to the impetus of, right? You know, you wear glasses because at some point you had struggled with your vision and the doctor told you, hey, here's your prescription. Um, now you're gonna put those glasses on, put them in a case. You may wipe them to clean them, whatever. Like you have this whole set of programming around that uh, so to speak, wave in your river. All right. And so there's a million things that Colin does on a daily basis that just happen naturally, right? You, you know, you wear your glasses, the way you talk, the thoughts you have, all of these things. And so those all go down, like that river travels down like the Mississippi down to Outcome Bay. That's that's where, you know, did you win? Did you lose? Does that person like you? Does that do they not like you? Um, do you have a good relationship with your boss? Do you have a good relationship with yourself? Um those thoughts and self-talk, that's where all that stuff kind of emerges. And so I think you can you can almost misappropriate or misdiagnose the problem and spend energy trying to, hey, I gotta, I gotta really work on outcome bay. Let's pour this concoction in there. Let's let's try this, let's build this, let's, let's see if we can. And you're getting these like waves of water and river, this river is just pouring into it like a waterfall, and it's never sustainable, right? Like that water is just gonna crush and and filter out whatever you do in that moment. Like you can go, you can you can treat someone poorly and go to them and say, sorry, that's an outcome. And if you treat them poorly the next day, does the sorry really matter? No, it's like it's like you know, if you're in a at a lake that a river pours into and you, you know, you put something in that lake, well, that river is just gonna wash that lake out, right? Like it's gonna rain and that that's that that outcome is gonna go away. And so, in terms of like the problems that I see in sports in my industry uh today and how I attack those problems, I view it as a river, a raging river, right? Like it's these are these are deep-rooted oak tree level habits or thoughts or beliefs. And if I'm trying to get that person from A to B, I know that that oak tree is gonna be a part of that. And so very rarely do I say things in absolutes, not to quote Star Wars, but only a Sith speaks in absolutes. If you got a guy coming in and saying, like, it's this, this, this, this, this, do that, and then that's all you hear from them, then that's probably not an effective strategy, right? It's probably gonna lead you to the dark side. I think it's like a river, and there are mediums to influence the flow of that water, the flow of your habits, the flow of your thoughts. Some of them are gonna be bigger than

Boulders Stones Pebbles And Reminders

SPEAKER_00 54:27

others. Like I call, I call them uh stones, boulders, or pebbles. All right. Like a boulder, like if you put a big boulder into a river, like the size of the river, it's gonna stop that water, right? Like it's gonna be a huge effect on how that water travels. Like a boulder might be you lost your dad at 18. A boulder might be you moved across country and you don't know anyone at at your new place. A boulder might be um you got divorced. Like there's like these are huge life changes that clearly are gonna impact how you think or or or act or or uh perceive your reality, right? Uh stone might be like smaller. Um, this is where I think leaders, this is the window that they need to operate in, right? Like when your student athletes come into the building, what do they see? Like they're gonna see that every day. And it's it's I mean, it's your practice facility. Uh that's gonna be a big part of their lives. When you're in practice, what do you reward? What do you punish? That's gonna be a boulder that influences their behaviors in practice. Um, there are so many ways to create what are you giving them verbally? What are you giving them tangibly? Are you are you connecting to them on a level that's deeper than just player coach? Um that creates these boulders that can kind of like a pinball falling through, direct to which way the water goes, which way their habits go. And then uh pebbles are gonna be the most, the most used medium and rightfully so, because it's a lot of the time it's like your words, your coaching, your instruction, things that kind of are fleeting in general, right? Like you say something once to someone and it's gone after that. Did they retain it? Is it gonna have a huge impact on their life? Like, maybe, maybe not. But but if you look at if you use the river analogy, that thing's flowing and like it's one of those white water rapids where they made the movies about like, you know, extreme adrenaline junkies are are trying to traverse these rivers. If you throw one pebble in there, hey, touch the line every sprint, or get to the dead corner on our initial break, or uh, hey, every time the ball is snapped, uh, you're gonna do something like this. If you only said that one time, the hit rate or the retention rate for that instruction is gonna be low, right? And so I think um when just to circle back to like what problems do we see and how do we attack those? I think more often than not, they don't need to be taught. They need to be reminded. Um, you need to be constantly thinking what boulders do we have that are gonna be, you know, stationary cogs of what we do, and then what pebbles are we constantly dumping into that river to help direct the flow of that water into the outcomes that we want.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Heck yeah, man. I think that's

Where To Find Josh And Closing

SPEAKER_01 57:06

a good place to wrap it. I appreciate you coming on, man. This has uh this has been a fun one. I know uh we tried to get it uh sooner. I had some technical difficulties, but glad to get you on, man. If uh we can get more hoopers to Maryland or if people want to reach out to you, they want to find you, what's gonna be the best way to do so?

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Yeah, no, I appreciate you having me. I'm a big fan of yours. I recently read that 90% of podcasts quit before the third episode, and then 90% of those that get past the third episode, so the 90% of the remaining 10% quit before the 20th episode. So you're in the 99th percentile of all podcasts, and I'm a huge fan of it. I've learned a ton. I'm listening. I'm probably the least accomplished guest you've ever had, but I I I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Very thankful you asked me. And hopefully this is the beginning of a great friendship. We we did have to work hard to get it and make it happen, so we've got a solid foundation to work from. But yeah, you can if you can uh follow me on on Twitter at Josh Chambers. Um, you can follow my Substack, Burnt Toast Theory. You can follow me. I have a rule right now that I'm gonna keep enact, keep enacting as long as I can. If you reach out to me to set up a call or set up a text, or you just want to talk, or there's something that you're interested in, or you just want to vent, I I try to uh reach back out to that person no matter who it is, but I've never met them or I've known them my whole life. So that's something I've just been trying to do this year that I think has yielded positive returns. But I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram at Coach Josh Chambers, I'm on TikTok at Coach Josh Chambers. Twitter's the only one that's different. It's just at Josh Chambers. And if you if anyone listening to this needs anything uh at all, just feel free to uh reach out and and to the best of my abilities, I'll try to help you become the best version of yourself and whatever it is that you're struggling with or think I can help with.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Hey, I appreciate you, man. That's awesome. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week. Check us out, athleticfortitude.com. Reach out to Josh. Uh let's go, Maryland. Download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Five stars only, baby. Appreciate you, Josh.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

Appreciate you, man.