Discipline Over Motivation: How to Keep Commitments When Life Gets Hard | Kaitlyn Kenna

Kaitlyn Kenna and I start with caffeine withdrawal and end up somewhere much deeper: how discipline, identity, and self respect actually get built when things feel hard. We share what helps us train, recover, and eat with intention without getting trapped by perfectionism or social media noise. 

• caffeine dependence and what withdrawal feels like day by day 
• discipline as a skill built through reps and non negotiables 
• training volume, recovery days, and why sleep is a performance tool 
• using Whoop and HRV data as feedback without letting it control choices 
• premortems and practicing worst case scenarios to build confidence 
• setting realistic expectations for different seasons of life without making excuses 
• stacking wins by controlling effort and inputs over outcomes 
• learning discomfort versus injury and protecting long term consistency 
• CrossFit Games goals, support teams, and coaching accountability 
• eating disorder recovery, control, and talking back to the restriction voice 
• nutrition fear mongering, rage bait, and why whole foods and moderation work 
• purpose, meaning, and identity labels that drive behavior change 

Tune in next week. Check us out, athleticfortitude.com, download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel, 5 stars Only Baby.

Transcript

Caffeine Withdrawal And Dependence

SPEAKER_01 0:00

How much caffeine do you drink in a day?

SPEAKER_00 0:02

I literally only drink one of these. So many people think that I drink like multiple energy drinks, but actually my husband has the caffeine problem. He drinks like three of them a day.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Well yeah. I was I had I was literally I had a caffeine addiction up until probably three days ago. I haven't had caffeine for three days, but I used to drink like four or five cold brews a day and would just crush them.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, God bless you for the last three days of your service. I'm sure you're hurting quite a bit. Or maybe now you're kind of getting off of it.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I think I'm past the peak of it. Day one was awful. Day two yesterday sucked. Today's not great, but I think I'm past like the peak headache, like body withdrawal, inability to put together concrete thoughts and words. And it sounds like I'm being dramatic, but like the first like two days off of, or I should say, on like caffeine withdrawal, like I just felt like a totally different person and not in a good way.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Mm-hmm. It's miserable, which is why I'll just continue to drink it. But I will admit, I used to have a caffeine problem where I was drinking like a gram and a half each day back when I managed corporate gyms because it was the only thing keeping me alive. But I'm glad I'm through that because I felt terrible all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah, I uh I'm curious to see like once I'm fully out of like caffeine dependency stage or caffeine withdrawal, like what I'll feel like. One of the like the nutritionists that I'm working with is like, wait till you feel how much better you are when you aren't dependent on caffeine to like function and you don't, your body can just generate energy on its own. But like part of me is like, well, I really like coffee. I know I can have decaf, but it's not always the same. So I'm wondering once I get past a certain point, if I can go back to just having like a cup of coffee a day and require the discipline to not have like four or five a day that I've been having.

Discipline As A Trainable Skill

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Well, that's what it comes down to, right? Discipline. You just have to take the discipline that you have in all other areas of your life and just apply it to your cold brew addiction.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Tell me more, because I know that's one of like your key frameworks that you operate within. Tell me kind of more of your perception on discipline and how it applies to your life.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

So, discipline, the way that I look at it, discipline is a skill that you need to build. You need to put work into. Nobody's actually born with it. Some people are more disciplined than other people in the correct areas of their life because they've put the work in to do it. Just like every day when I go to train, I don't want to be there a lot of the time because it's hard, it's painful. But I've put in the work to just force myself to do it enough times to be disciplined enough to do it. And I truly believe that discipline and being disciplined in the right things, because a lot of people are disciplined. Some people are just disciplined in habits that don't necessarily serve them. But being disciplined in the right things, I feel like is truly the foundation to building anything that you want in life.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

It's that feedback loop where, like you said, people are disciplined in certain areas that don't serve them. They get a certain feedback loop that creates them to be disciplined in that area, whether it be serving them or not. For you, when you use the gym as an example, and I think the gym in general is great for analogies and a lot of different aspects of life. And as an avid gym goer, continuously working out, like there's a lot of times I do not want to work out. For you, how much friction is it on those days where it's like I really don't want to work out before you're able to just force yourself to actually go and do it? Like, how much friction do you have in between those moments?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

I'd like to say that I have all this friction and that it's difficult to get started. But truly, at this point in my life, I it's a non-negotiable. Like I don't give myself the option to not do it. And I think that's where a lot of people get it wrong is they say, I'll go to the gym, but they almost give themselves the out, like, oh, if I had a bad day at work, if I didn't feel like it, then I won't go. And they have that back and forth with each other. Whereas when it comes to something that's going to take me to the place where I truly want to be in life, whether it be the gym or with business or anything, it's a non-negotiable. It's gonna suck sometimes, but that's just part of the journey.

Non Negotiables And Training Volume

SPEAKER_01 4:12

How many days a week do you train?

SPEAKER_00 4:15

I train so I do doubles five days a week where I'm like intense, like intensity is high, volumes high. The other two days are more of like active recovery, aka fake rest days, where I'm just doing more like zone two cardio or longer cardio sessions versus like intense intervals or weights.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

What is what do your rest days look like?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

So Sunday is my rest day where I truly try to rest. And generally that looks like me either going on a 45-minute ruck with a lighter weighted vest, just get some seps in, or sitting on the bike for 45 minutes and just spitting my legs out and getting it ready for the next day. But a lot of it is trying to rest my body and my mind. And that's really difficult as somebody who always wants to do more.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

What is like, do you ever feel like you don't have energy, or do you actually feel like because of your workout routine that you have an increase in energy?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

No, there are days where I really just could probably take a nap, even after having an energy drink, even after, you know, training and stuff. I just do a lot, but what I do truly drives me to do more because I actually love what I do. Like as painful as my training can be, as challenging as the days can be. And how many times I say, I'm not gonna do this again, I quit. Like, I don't want to do this. I'm always back because I just

Whoop Data And HRV After Surgery

SPEAKER_00 5:36

love it.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Do you use any like wearable technologies? Like, do I like whoop or or any of those comparable uh metrics to track?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

I got whoop. Yeah. I've been using whoop since 2020, I think.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Okay. I've uh I forget when I started using whoop, but I love it. And so for for you, are you like deep diving into the analytics and metrics, or are you more of the using it as a guide on the side?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

I'm kind of using it as a guide on the side because I don't want, for example, if I wake up and my recovery is at like 20%, but I feel good, I'm not gonna let that impact my training. It's just something that I'm aware of. So maybe I look at not what I'm gonna do moving forward, but more of, well, what happened to get me here and how can I correct that? So I actually had surgery on May 29th to remove a mass from my ovary, and my ovary was actually twisted on itself twice. So, since that surgery, my HRV has been over 50% lower than it was prior to the surgery. So it's interesting to see how something traumatic on your body like that can impact your data.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

So, what are you doing now to course correct, kind of and fix that HRV while maintaining your intense training for becoming a full-time CrossFitter?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

I'm really focusing on sleep a lot, making sure I'm actually being disciplined to putting the phone down at night, winding down, getting eight hours of sleep. And then also the biggest thing is fueling my body and not just getting my protein, but also getting plenty of carbs because that's the fuel that's going to drive my training and performance, but also help with that recovery and fats for that hormonal health.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

This is one of my favorite discussions with with wearables because you see kind of the demographic that is very anti-wearing wearables because they claim that the metrics that you use will, you know, affect you mentally and be like, oh, I'm in the red today. I can't train or I'm not gonna perform as well. And maybe to a certain degree, like that's true. And you see professional athletes talk about it. I saw, you know, Erling Halland in the World Cup talk about, hey, he doesn't wear his wearables because it affects him mentally. But for me, it's I really like using the wearables one to just get data on like kind of what's going on in my body, two to signal to me, like you said, hey, if I'm in the red today, well, what did I do leading up to this point? How can I avoid doing that in the future? But I like a little reverse psychology on it. In the days that I'm in the red, sometimes I'll make that my hardest training day so that I know come competition day, if I wake up and it's red, I can already have the proof. Well, I've done this before. I've had really hard, really good training days when I'm in the red. And one day of red is not going to override a multitude of days in the yellow and green, in particular in the green.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

And I think I really like that approach,

Premortems And Training For Bad Days

SPEAKER_00 8:19

actually.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yeah, it's so it to me, I like it. I'm very aggressive and intense in like the facing like the the hard truths and like the reality of performance and life. And I'm big on premortems and like if I have like what is the adversity that I'm going to potentially face and like what is my plan for that? And so how I base a lot of my day-to-day and a lot of my training is if I can incorporate as much of the worst case scenario in at least a couple of days a week, then I'm gonna be prepared for it when it inevitably comes. And that's across all domains of life.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

And that's actually a great way to set yourself up because then you have the confidence that you can overcome when hard stuff happens, because the harsh reality that a lot of people don't want to face is that it's never gonna be perfect. And there's always gonna be stuff that makes it more challenging than you'd like it to be. So when people say, Oh, well, I'll start after my birthday, after this holiday, okay, well, something else is gonna come up. You're gonna have a hard day at work and then you're gonna be really challenged, but are you gonna have the confidence to be able to come out of it?

SPEAKER_01 9:14

I love when people say, just like you said, after this, I'll be free or I'll have more time. It's the reality is we never have more time. The reality is we probably have less time always moving forward. And it's a lot of it is periodization, right? And understanding, okay, what season am I in and how can I incorporate the things that matter most? And, you know, I just had a guest Zach Brandon on had this thing I loved about like identity, but it applies to all domains of life is like, what is your starting five priorities? Like what are the most important things? And not only your starting five, but who are we trying to create shots for in a basketball terminology? Like who are we trying to get the ball when it matters the most? That's your most, that's your number one priority. And to be able to incorporate that regardless of what season you're in, but understanding those pri those priorities, where they fit in the landscape of your day-to-day and your longer periods of life.

Seasons Of Life And Expectations

SPEAKER_00 10:05

I think a lot of it too comes down to setting appropriate expectations to what period of life you're in. I have this conversation a lot with, I coach a lot of people and specifically women and a lot of mothers. So a lot of mothers will come to me and say, Well, it was so easy when I was in college, you know, 20 years ago. Well, you have a completely different life now. So you can't get mad at yourself for not having the exact same outcome because you have so many different responsibilities from being a mother to a wife to now having a full-time job. Fitness is going to look different, but that's okay. That doesn't mean you can't see results. It just means you have to shift the expectations so you don't always feel disappointed in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

You know, it's funny, my my wife and I just had this almost exact conversation yesterday because we were talking about in general, there's portions of like our life where we feel that there's a little bit of a void because we can't give as much attention to those things. Well, having three kids is gonna do that to us. So her, you know, with relative like fitness, she's not gonna be able to do the fitness things that she likes to do right now because she's breastfeeding. We have a son who's under a year old who requires her to pump. She's working full time, and so like she misses pump hours during the day. And so we have to pump, I say we because I stay up with her, but late at night. And so our sleep is a little affected and messed up. And there are so many different components that like go into this. And expectations is a really, really big part of it. And I'm glad you brought that up because having like realistic expectations is not necessarily lowering your standard or lowering the bar. It's just putting the expectation where you can really meet the demand of that expectation and not completely blow it off and kick it to the curb because you set some unrealistic expectation and couldn't meet it.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

And setting realistic expectations isn't an excuse to make excuses either. Because I think a lot of people will take that as, oh, okay, well, it's not going to be the same. So I can kind of, you know, not put the same amount of intensity behind what I'm doing. No, you should put the same amount of intensity. It's just going to look a little bit differently, is the point.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

What would that like look like? So, like some of the people that you like work with, like, how do you manage those expectations and to be able to keep that intensity?

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Mm-hmm. So it goes about just keeping the commitments you make to yourself, regardless of how you feel. That to me, that's like one of my core values of my business, my podcast, my life. Because I feel that if you do that, then same thing with discipline. It's truly the foundation to taking you to wherever you want to be in life. Because so many people break promises they make to themselves consistently. And then that ruins their confidence. They never believe they can actually do something. But if you keep a commitment to yourself, regardless of how you feel, regardless of what emotion is trying to dictate your path, you're gonna be good. So if I have somebody who is now a mother and before she was, you know, just training whenever she wanted to, it's like, okay, you made the commitment to train today. It might not happen at the exact time that you want it to happen. It might look differently. I have one client who I give her a workout that she can just do if the whole day went to shambles and now she's just doing body weight squats with her kid on a every minute on the minute type timer. So it's just doing what you need to do and just keeping the commitment and realizing that something is always better than nothing.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

The line that I like, and I have no idea who said it, so I wish I could give them credit, but it's like commitment is like the greatest form of self-respect to be able to honor your commitments and do what you say you're gonna do. There is no greater form of self-respect, self-love, confidence building than just doing the things that you said that you were gonna do. And like you said, something is always better than nothing. Something compounds. Even if you do the smallest detail, it will compound. Whereas if you do nothing, zero can't compound. And so to always do something as opposed to doing nothing is always gonna serve you just a little bit more, especially when you you tack it on time after time, day after day, and then you look years back and you see all the compounding effect of the decisions you chose to make.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Exactly. It's it's like building momentum. And the way that I like to look at it is literally you take a little snowball and you push it down the mountain and it's just gonna get bigger and bigger, go faster and faster. But if you were to somehow stop that snowball, it would take a lot more effort and energy to get it going. Or the better analogy is a train. If the train's going down the tracks and it's going and it's getting faster and faster and faster, and if it just stops, it takes a lot of energy and effort to get it going again. So as long as you keep some sort of momentum, even if it's not perfect because perfection truly isn't real, then you're going to get to where you want to go. It's just a matter of time and not quitting on yourself.

Effort Based Wins Over Outcomes

SPEAKER_01 14:46

How do you battle with perfection and internal expectations?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

That's a great question. It's something that that's probably the thing that I struggle with the most, I would say, is because I always expect more. So when I have a win, it's satisfying for a moment, but then it's like, okay, what's next? But I do make sure that I recognize how far I've come from where I was to where I am now, because then it's a reminder that if I continue to do the things that I'm doing, I'm going to continue to move forward. But truly, it is something that I struggle with. And I think that a lot of people who are trying to be the best version of themselves, they always do. So I think it's it's it's not real and it's not authentic if you're not struggling with that.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

I like to reframe like perfectionism in the sense of like know the game that you're playing. And so any performance lens that you're in, at some point, each win is going to start feeling good for a moment and then going away. And you're going to consistently want more because that's that's the curse of competence. I talked about that with Justin Sua, one of one of my favorite guests on the show, is when you get really good at something and you are continuously trying to climb this ladder, there will always be more. And so there has to be like a greater purpose serving you to where that pursuit of more does not get in the way of having enough. And that is a really tricky dichotomy to balance as a performer and as an athlete, just anyone who's driven is how do I continue to want more while still having enough? And something I struggle with in my own life, I would say most performers do. But I really like what you said of like, you look at how far you've come. Look at where I was, look at where I'm at today. And you can have appreciation for the climb and the journey and the progress that you've made to help show what I have is enough. If I achieve nothing else in the world or nothing else again, I've lived a pretty good life. I've done really good in my space, I've given it my all. But I'm still going to try and keep climbing the ladder, see how far I can really push myself. Cause I do think that's the beauty of life is always pushing yourself to the boundaries of what you think you're capable of.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

And that is the cool part about life because you always have every day that you wake up, you have the opportunity to be able to push yourself past perceived limits and get a little bit better. Even if it's 0.0001%, it's still getting better and moving forward. And I think that's where a lot of people struggle, is they just don't think that the little things are as significant as they truly are. But it's never one big extraordinary thing that made somebody successful. It's the little things done for an extraordinary period of time. I think I can quote Alex Ormoz for that one. But I love Alex Ormoz. That's how I look at it.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

I'm a big Alex Ormozy guy. His quotes are always welcomed on the show. Maybe one day I'll get them on. Unlikely though. But I'll show you.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

You never know, right? Dream big, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:37

You never know. Dream big. That's right. But the beauty of like what we're discussing is I don't know if it's the beauty of it, but most people don't really live intentionally. The beauty side of it is if you start to live intentionally, you can see how your life can change. Most people don't define what getting better each day means. It's a little bit different to everybody what better looks like. And to get a win that's good enough to stamp your day as I moved my day forward, I kept the momentum on the train tracks is different. And if you don't live and define in your own world and those own values what that looks like, it's going to be really hard for you to build sustainable success. And I really work with people a lot on like, we have to be incredibly definitive of like what moves us forward, what counts as a win, what looks good, what can we celebrate, what can we be proud of in your own life? Like, what is like a win to you? Like, how do you track wins and stack days in your estimation?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

The way that I look at it is if I can go to bed every single night, knowing that I put everything that I possibly could into that day. Like when you lay your head down, you're exhausted because of how much you put into that day. Like if even if my training session didn't go the best that it could have, did I give my best effort and intent? Because effort is always a choice and it's always something that you can control. You might not be able to control some days you just have terrible workouts, or some days you your mind just doesn't feel right and you're not making the best work possible. But did you give your best effort? That's the way that I really stack wins is what can I control? I can't control the outcome, but I can always control the input and the effort behind that.

Discomfort Versus Injury In Training

SPEAKER_01 19:19

When you are in like the weight room in your training, how like in your internal dialogue, how do you decipher between like in a rep where it's like, hey, I'm at risk at putting myself at hurting myself, or hey, I'm just feeling a little fatigued and I need to push through this. Do you have like an internal dialogue or a feeling that you know where like, hey, I need to stop this rep because I may get hurt?

SPEAKER_00 19:42

That's a good question, actually, because I think that a lot of people, even if they're whether they're athletes or just regular people, they don't know the difference between that. A lot of I used to work with people in the gym training people, and I would get people who literally didn't know the difference between, oh, my tricep is burning because I'm doing a lot of tricep extensions, or no, I ripped my tricep. But I really look at it as I've been doing it long enough where I know my body well enough. And I I know that's not the answer that people would probably want to hear, but it's kind of how it goes. You just put in the reps and you start to learn how your body responds and what is, oh, this is discomfort, this is pain, this will end, it's temporary, versus, oh no, injury, I should probably stop.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

I still struggle with that to this day because I've, you know, my listeners know I've had five knee surgeries, had wrist surgery, I've had a number of broken bones, you know, broke my back, shoulder, torn labor. I'm like all kinds of different things. And even now in the in the gym, sometimes I'll be like, quit being a baby and do this rep. And then I'll have a muscle tweak. I'm like, like, just listen to your body, man. Like, you know, your body, like you said, I've done it enough times. I've been through this rodeo, like I know, like, not as young as I used to be. Like, it's not always gonna be the same. And so that is something I personally struggle with the most is like, when is a skipped rep gonna save me three weeks off or three weeks off of intense training versus when am I? Most of the time I know when I'm being a baby and I push through those, but like the ones where it's like really testing my faith, where it's like, I probably should skip a set or a rep here to save my body so I can continue to train. And that's always the hard trade-off to figure out is where do I sacrifice this rep to keep the next month versus if I sacrifice this rep, am I not keeping a commitment to myself?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

I think that that's probably the hardest thing that athletes struggle with. And I'll be honest, like I definitely struggle with that because I've had my fair share of injuries over the years. I feel like I turned 29 and my whole body started breaking down. So I, you know, I had I herniated a disc. I had a, I actually have something called Ellers Dontlos, which is an extreme form of hypermobility. So my body doesn't always like to cooperate with me. So it's hard to sometimes distinguish like I'm just being a little baby versus man, this actually might set me back and I don't want to be out for three, four weeks. I think a lot of athletes do the rep and then they're out three. Three, four weeks, or you have like, oh, my knee kind of hurts. Maybe I should take it easy for a day, and then you're out there running the next day. I've absolutely been there.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I've I've lived in that space for a long period of time where it's like, you know, it's so hard. And that that's like the more you know your body, the more you've been through it, the more you test it, you'll develop kind of that that skill set. But even then, there's always going to be that other side of you that's that's whispering in your ear, hey, push through it, or hey, maybe you should take a break. And you have to really know those voices to know which answers to give back to them when it's necessary.

Chasing The CrossFit Games Goal

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Where did like your transition into fitness and competition come from? Like, where is this drive and hunger coming from?

SPEAKER_00 22:40

You know, the way that I look at it, I I think I look back at my life and I've been through a lot of hard things, but that doesn't make me special. Everybody's been through their own fair share of hard things. I had a pretty bad eating disorder when I was younger. And that's kind of what I look at when I am training, when I want to be competitive, is doing it for her, doing it for the past version of myself and to show other girls and other women that you don't have to always try to be smaller or try to eat less or try to take up less space. You can be strong and you can be capable and you can do incredible things. So it's it's kind of for the past version of myself, but also for anybody who's watching.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

What does the competition side look like for you? What are you pushing for? Like what does that process look like? What is the ultimate goal with all the competition you're training for right now?

SPEAKER_00 23:32

So the ultimate goal would be to qualify for the CrossFit games, whether it be as an individual or as a master's athlete, kind of however that looks and whatever the timeline looks like for me, because I'm not in a rush because I know my body is not in the best state as far as with my hypermobility, with everything that I put it through. I did a lot of damage to my body with my eating disorder. My hormones are still paying for it. So I'm giving myself a little bit of grace in that sense, but also understanding that I just want to be able to say, I did this despite all of this.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Despite all of this, I like that. What's going to be your measurement of success throughout all this?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I'm trying to figure that out. But again, it comes down to just did I put everything that I possibly could into it? There's no guarantee that I make the games. There's no guarantee that I place X in a competition, but there's always a guarantee that I can control the input, I can control the effort, I can control showing up on the days that I didn't want to show up and just learning from that journey and taking lessons from it to become a better version of myself. And if if I don't make it to the games, but I grow as a person, that's a win.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Who are you leaning on during this process? Do you have like a core group of individuals? Do you have one person? Like, how do you go through this process and set yourself best up for success?

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah. I mean, it's hard to do things like this on your own. I think that everybody needs people and or a team behind them to help lean on when you're struggling a little bit or just to kind of guide you in the right direction. So I do have a coach that I've had for a little over four years now who does my programming, but he's also kind of like a mental toughness coach, I feel like, at the same time, because he definitely will call me out and teach me a lot of things. Uh, I also have a nutrition coach who I've been working with for two or three years, and she really knows everything about me and everything about my past eating disorder and knows when I'm kind of leaning more onto the restriction side of things. Cause, you know, when you have an eating disorder, yes, you recover, but you never truly recover. You always have that little voice in the back of your head saying, Hey, you know, you don't need all those carbs. Or, you know, if you're stressed, like you kind of lean on restriction. As some people, when they're stressed, they lean on binging. Um, but then I also have my husband who literally is my biggest supporter. He believed in me from day one. And he's always done everything possible to set things up so that I have the best shot at accomplishing my goals.

Anorexia Recovery And Control

SPEAKER_01 25:54

And with the the eating disorder, what was like the eating disorder? How did it manifest? And when did you know you needed to make a change?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

So I had anorexia and it got pretty bad to the point where I'm five, six and I was 89 pounds at my lowest when I went into an eating disorder outpatient program. It started when I actually started to get into fitness and running when I was 14 because my dad was addicted to painkillers and it was kind of my outlet. It's like I can't control what's going on at home, but you know, let's go on a run or let's get obsessed with fitness or let's get obsessed with nutrition and learn all those things. And it turned me into the person I am today. I would never change my past because all of those struggles built me into who I am today. And they allow me to help other versions of myself, is how I look at it. But as things at home got worse, things in my head got worse when it came to food because I just started to control things. And that's how a lot of eating disorders start is it's a sense of control. When life feels out of control, well, I can control how much I eat. I can control how little I eat or how the scale goes down. So it just kind of started when I was 14. It got bad and then it got better, bad, better, kind of like back and forth. When I was 21, is when it got my worst because my parents got separated. We moved back to New York. I was living in my grandma's house. I was going to college. I was super stressed. And I was just like, okay, I'm not going to eat like anything and I'm going to work out like a crazy person. So that's when I got to 89 pounds. My parents brought me into an eating disorder outpatient program. And I literally remember stepping on that scale and seeing that number and realizing, oh no, I messed up because I didn't think it was as bad as it was. You know, you have people in your ear telling you, like, oh, you should probably gain weight or you're looking a little thin. But it was really just my mom who was telling me these things. So you don't really listen. It's just like your mom, right? Um, but my brother, my cousins, my friends, they didn't say anything because they didn't know what to say. So they didn't say anything. And then after the fact, they're like, oh, yeah, you were really sick. Well, I wish you told me because I didn't think I was sick. I was just kind of living in this world of I'm miserable. I kind of want to die, but I'm also afraid at the same time. And I didn't know how to stop. So it came to that point where I stepped on the scale at the eating disorder outpatient program, and that was kind of my wake-up call, like my rock bottom moment. And it was like my enough is enough moment, is what I like to tell people. So that was when I decided, okay, let's change something. So I started lifting weights. I started eating more, even though it was so hard. I literally remember sitting at the dinner table with my mom and like crying because I didn't want to eat. But slowly but surely, I started to get better. I did have a couple moments where I regressed a little bit, but it was always moving forward, kind of like with anything in life. Like if you're trying to lose weight, it's never like straight down. It's always like a little bit of a roller coaster. And now I'm 128 pounds. So I'm almost 40 pounds heavier than I was back then. And I'm stronger than I've ever been and I'm happier than I've ever been. But I would be lying if I didn't say that I didn't still struggle a little bit when it comes to the restriction. But I have the mindset now to be able to hear those voices and just say, nope, don't need that. Not serving me.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Is that like your internal dialogue, or how do you talk back to that voice to get you moving forward like you want?

SPEAKER_00 29:19

It might sound weird, but I say these thoughts out loud to myself because a lot of the times when you say things out loud, you realize how silly they sound. Like in my head, if I'm like, well, I shouldn't have the whole apple, I should only have half of it because too many carbs. And then you say that out loud, it's like half an apple isn't gonna do anything.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Is that like the like what like helped you get from rock bottom to like where you are? Obviously, there's a long trajectory, a long storyline, but what were some of the fundamental principles that carried you out that helped the most?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

The biggest thing is just telling myself that I would never gonna quit on myself, like making the decision that I wasn't going to let this eating disorder kill me because it very well could have, and I was pretty close to it. I would have nights where I would wake up and my heart would hurt, like my chest would hurt so bad that I I thought I was just gonna die, you know? So I made the decision consciously to say, I don't want this eating disorder to kill me. I feel like I'm here for a reason. And a lot of times, if it wasn't gonna be for me, at that point in time it was for my mom because I would hear her crying at night. Just she didn't know what to do, right? Because she's watching her daughter literally kill herself in front of her eyes. But I just took it one day at a time. And if I can just not quit, then eventually it will be okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

How did you uh grapple with the concept of of death and being scared, like you mentioned earlier?

SPEAKER_00 30:49

I really think that that point, that period of time in my life taught me a lot about life in the sense that I appreciate it a lot more because I was so close to death. You know, I'm sure people who have experienced like a near-death experience probably realize, like, oh wow, life is really precious. It could end at any point in time. So when I was really close to death, where I would like almost pass out on the subways, or when my heart would hurt that bad, or when I would have doctors saying like my body's gonna is like shutting down. I really just thought, well, do I want, do I want this to be my story? Do I want this to be how it how it ends? Like I have so much more to do on this earth that I want to do. So that's how I look at it.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

What like what like I'm so fascinated? I don't know if fascinating is the right word, but with like that relationship and dichotomy like with your mom, with your parents. Like, do you want people to tell you, hey, you need to figure this out? You don't look good or you look sick, or is it like a sensitive topic that you don't want to hear? Like, what do people who have eating disorders need to hear? Maybe not what they want to hear, but what do they need to hear?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

They need to hear the truth. And I'm always going to be the person who tells that person the truth. Like, if somebody, a lot of people DM me, and some of them do struggle with eating disorders because they know I've had the past with it. A lot of the times that person knows that they're sick, they know they need help, they want help, but they're trapped and they don't know what to do. So they just need somebody to kind of give them a little bit of tough love, which they might not want in that moment, but it's going to drive them forward. But also just somebody to listen and for them to understand that they're not alone. I think a lot of people think that they're alone and that everybody's out to get them when they have an eating disorder. But it's about approaching it as it is a sensitive topic for that person. So you shouldn't just like completely bash that person and say, You look like crap, you shouldn't do anything. But like being helpful in the sense where I'm here with you, let's do this together, versus you need help, you know?

SPEAKER_01 32:54

That's a big, that's a big distinction. The art of feeling alone, anyone who's ever struggled, even in competition or with something more serious, like with the mental health with a eating disorder, something that is like really just tough. Most people do feel they're alone and they have this tendency to want to isolate and not project or you know put their problems out there because they think people want to understand them or they think people are gonna judge them or they think people are attacking them or out to get them. Where in reality, a lot of us are experiencing similar things or have experienced something similar, or there are other people who are going through what you're going through, and you're really not alone. And as cliches, that is to say it's it's very true. And there are other people out there who are going through exactly what you're going through and can offer you the processes and systems to help get you to where you want to go. And you don't have to suffer alone. You don't have to suffer in silence. You can be with someone, not be a burden, and get the help and and the support that you need. And there's like a fine line that we see in society right now to where with social media and other new adversaries, everybody's got feels that their problems are accelerated. But there is that fine line where it's like, hey, we do have a real problem here, or there is something that you're going through, and you can lean on others to help you through that path.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

It's a very fine line, too, because there's a certain group of people who just use every little thing that happened to them and they use that as their excuse always, like I'm the victim of my own circumstances type people, where they say, Oh, well, I can't be successful because this happened to me. And then there's the other side where it's like, well, I can be successful because this happened to me. So it's about using your suffering and using that pain and giving purpose to it because there's always going to be purpose in it if you create it that way.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

That's I'm big on like storytelling and like reframing and how important that is in any endeavor in life, whether it's personal journey, professional, or athletic journey, the ability to write your own story and self-authorship. And Joe Rogan talks a lot about like being the hero in your own story. And one of my favorite things is like, if you were in a movie and the audience was watching you, and what would they be screaming at you to do right now and in this situation? And never is it quit, give up on yourself. It is normally some type of obvious, tangible thing that you can do to change the relative trajectory of your life. And if you just listen to the audience, right? Or if you put yourself and reframe yourself in that scenario, is like, what is the audience screaming at me to do right now? And then just go and do that thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

I love that. I love that because I think a lot of people are afraid. And that's probably the biggest thing that people struggle with is not even just the fear of failure, but even like the fear of success. Like, oh, what if it does work out? Now I have all these different responsibilities and I don't know if I'm ready to handle that. So it's about overcoming that fear regardless. So if you have the fear that, like, oh man, I might fail, who cares? Like, be the hero, just try anyway, because you're never gonna know if you try. And all the heroes failed at one point in time. In every story in every movie, there's always some sort of a failure that happens, but that person doesn't use that as their, oh, that's it. Well, the end of the movie, I failed. It's okay, well, how can I learn, grow, and come back from this and now succeed?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

When you look at movies, usually the greater that you love a character, the greater adversity they went through, the more responsibility they carry is usually derived from the harder the way it was to get there. And the hardest earned wins are the ones that feel the best. And even a more tangible one, if you want to say, oh, that's Hollywood, well, you go look in the wild, go look at lions, go look at tigers, and go look at any of those animals. The ones who are sitting on top of the rock are not the ones who are scarless. They're the ones that are full of scars, that have been mauled, that have had to fight, that have had to climb that rock to earn the right to sit on it. And they're constantly having to fight to stay there. And so in the real world, it's the same thing. And anybody who's achieved anything has known or knows that when you have to fight and claw, and the harder it is to get a win and you get that win feels so much better than an easy success. Easy successes are easy to kind of just like pass by and are what they are. But the ones where you really have to put the work in, the determination, the commitment against, again, all odds, what you've experienced in the past, when everything tells you you should quit and you still keep going and then you win, those are the ones where you really cherish and hold true to your heart because you had to overcome something to get it.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Absolutely. And then you're able to maintain those results or exceed those results. It's kind of like if I were to snap my fingers and give you everything that you wanted in life, it wouldn't be as sweet. You wouldn't be able to maintain it. It's kind of like the people who win the lottery and then they go bankrupt a few weeks later. It's because they didn't learn the discipline through the journey of how to actually maintain that financial status. Same thing with somebody if I were to say, okay, snap my fingers, you lost 20 pounds. You'd probably gain it back in a few days because you didn't learn the habits and behaviors that are associated with you being that new version of yourself. So the journey is what matters more than anything. And adversity is our greatest teacher.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

I was just listening, I think it was actually Alex Hermozi talk about how the only thing worse than having something is losing it. And the best you ever feel is the pursuit to get something because you don't have it yet. And it's just this constant work to try and get there. And then once you have it, it's like, okay, well, now I have it. And so the only thing worse than having is losing. And that was like, to me, at least, such like a revolutionary thought process of talking about again the journey and the importance of it, but saying it in a different way that resonates, where it's like, once you have something, you have it. But it's the pursuit and the drive and in the want to get there that really is going to give you like that adrenaline, that dopamine rush of constantly pushing yourself and pursuing that tangible thing that you want. And then once you have it, you kind of have it. And then it's the fight to keep it or the fight to find something new.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

That's why people who, you know, if they've been very successful and they start to collect all these different things like cars and all these things, it's not as cool as it once was to get the next car. But to to get the first one was so exciting.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

And then you get like the 20th, and it's like, it is what it is, you know? But it is what it is. If somebody were to take those away from you, it'd be like, oh no.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Yeah, no, that's it's it's such a dichotomy in anything of like success is like, like I said, the the losing it, right? You never want to lose it, but like getting another one isn't as cool as getting that first. And you know, it it's funny, not funny, but like you watch, like I think Rory McCoy is a really good example of this. He never ever could win the Masters. Like, that was the one that kept escaping him. He finally wins the Masters last year. It was this monumental moment for him, like on the f on the ground, crying, like it was everything he worked for. And then he wins the Masters again this year. This is obviously still super excited, but the celebration of the Masters event was significantly less than the prior year. But had he not won it, he probably would have been pretty pissed. But the reality is, like, that is again going back to knowing the game that you're playing. You have to understand that the hardest earned wins are going to feel the best. And not every win is going to feel the same. And just because you may lose after a few wins does not negate the ones, the wins that you've already accumulated. And it's just this constant tug back and forth where if you're not facing the reality of the situation, it can feel overwhelming and cumbersome.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Yeah. Losing sucks, but losing makes you appreciate the wins so much more, but it also makes the wins possible. Because if you never lose, then I truly believe that you're not pushing yourself hard enough.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

It's one of those like necessary evils. You can't, you don't have to like losing, but you do have to accept that it is part of the path. And you have to know when I do lose or when I do face that, you know, that wall or adversity. It's like, what is my what is going to be my response? Am I going to be a victim? Am I going to say, poor me? Am I going to blame it on someone else or am I going to internalize it? Figure out what was missing. Understand, hey, what part, because there is always luck. What part of this was outside of my control? What is directly within my control that I either need to do more of, need to do less of, or need to improve upon? And the it's like the analytical reflection process is really important to understand whether you win or lose, it's like, okay, what was outside of my control? What did I do well? What do I need to do more of? And like, hey, what do I maybe need to do less of or improve upon? And just kind of keeping it that simple, but then having the downstream processes from there to then put into place a plan to proceed forward.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Correct. Yeah. I mean, I know you were a division one athlete. So I'm sure like if you guys lost a football game, you didn't just say, well, that sucks. You actually were like, okay, well, what did we do in this game that reflected and what can we actually change to make the next game different?

SPEAKER_01 42:30

That's like the beauty of, you know, obviously every sport's different, but like football is such like a hell heavy film study game. And so I know exact almost exactly what I did well and what I did wrong every single play in every single game. And where I can watch and be like, oh, technically, like, you know, when I set the edge, you know, like you set the edge, you want to keep like your outside arm free, set the edge like edge of the defense. Well, in a game, if I get locked up and blocked and I can't get my outside arm free, I'm allowing that runner, the ball carrier, to get outside of me. That's like an easy fix. Like, okay, plug and play, practice. I know I need to work on that. Whatever it is, if I cut, you know, I'm taking on a 300-pound lineman and I'm cutting them, okay. Where did I cut them? Did my shoulder pad hit their knee? If I'm in coverage, right? What was my footwork like? Did I let them break my cushion? Did I let them break my leverage? If they did, what did I do? Did I cross my feet over? Did I stay square? Right. And there's like all these like different things which you can like point and look at. Whereas like I don't have to do it off memory. It's like, oh, I have it on film, on camera, right here, and I can watch it over and over again. And that's like one of the beauty of things, like the beautiful things of football. And I'm sure you have it in other sports as well. But it's like I have everything documented where I know exactly where I need to improve. And that's where football players get a little bit spoiled there.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

I do think it's funny that a lot of people who build successful businesses or do great things in their life, they were at one point an athlete. And I think a lot of it comes Down to that mindset of being able to handle losses, being able to learn and grow from them, but also being tough enough to not quit and not make the same mistake more than once.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

The unique thing with athletes is I say athletes kind of go down one of two paths. They go down that path where they're able to take the lessons that they learned from doing physically and mentally demanding things from a sport and apply it to life. And then there's the other portion of the athletes who kind of go the other way because they no longer have that structure. They weren't able to transfer skill sets from different domains of life and they kind of fall into this victim path. I think there's a very strong dichotomy with athletes. It's very seldom that you have athletes kind of in the middle. And athletes very, very tangibly kind of take one of two paths where it's like they apply everything that they've learned and they internalize it. And then there's the other ones who lose that structure because it was built for them, not from them. And they lose those skill sets and enter into the world and they feel lost.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Do you think that a lot of it comes down to identity? Like when you lose the sport, you lose who you are versus the people who maybe are able to be somebody outside of the sport.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Absolutely. And you know, with a lot of the work I do, this is like the fundamental question that we answer is like, who are we as a person? Who are we as an athlete? How do we radically define that and what that looks like? How can we put that into action to earn a certain identity? And how do we take from different domains of life actions and behaviors that have earned the right to call ourselves something? What label am I assigning myself in a good or bad way? If there's a bad label, well, I need to get rid of that. And how do I get rid of that? If I want to obtain a label, I am the person who finishes what I start. I am the person who keeps my commitments. Well, what does that look like? And what behaviors are necessary in order for us to obtain that label? And the athletes and people who just accept labels onto themselves, oh, I'm not clutch, oh, you know, I'm not very good, or oh, my coaches hate me, or oh, the world's out to get me, or oh, you know, that person, you know, started on third base, whatever it is, when you accept those labels onto yourself, it's really, really hard to have any type of relative self-worth. And the identity piece where it's like, no, in spite of that, I'm going to go out and earn the rate, I'm going to create my own agency. I'm going to, whatever it is, you can then give your labels onto yourself there from sport or from you know individual behavior in your personal life, whatever it is, you then can create your own labels to say, I'm the type of person who finishes what I start. I'm the type of person who can do hard things. And whatever it is, then you can just recite that over and over again. So when you're in these moments of uncertainty or fear or doubt or whatever it is, you have proof, you know, in just this undeniable stack of evidence that you are exactly who you say you are and you can handle the new thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

It's kind of like who you think you are is who you become. So if you always think that you are always gonna struggle with your diet, well, then you're probably gonna always struggle with your diet until you change that mindset. It's a lot of people who I work with, they say, Oh, well, I have an all or nothing mindset. Okay, cool. You're always gonna have that if you believe that. How about we change that from all or nothing to always something?

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Reframe, right? I like that reframe. It's uh, you know, it's super interesting because everybody's a little bit different. And you have to face, I keep going back to like the harsh truth things, but like with like a new diet that I started, because I got some blood work done, my cortisol was really, really bad, like really, really low. And that's part of the reason I'm off caffeine. And for me, it was this is gonna suck. This is gonna be awful, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Because if I really want to make a difference, then I have to be willing to make a change. And I think the problem is when we run into like the optimism conversation, you have your overly optimistic people that they'll be like, oh, this is gonna be so easy. I can do it, I can do anything. And then they're hit with that face of resistance, and it's like, this really sucks. I'm I wasn't prepared for this, versus the rational optimism who's like, no, this is gonna suck. This is not gonna be easy. This is gonna take a really long time, it's gonna take a lot of effort, but I'm gonna do it anyway. All right. That's the difference in optimism that leads to success versus leads to quitting versus, you know, overcoming adversity, whatever it is, is shifting and being able to face like a hard reality. Like me not drinking coffee every day is like a brutal task for me. But like I know I'm capable of doing it because I've done significantly harder things than not drink coffee for a couple of weeks. And so to be able to again pull that proof and assign that label to myself, it gives me the conviction, even though it's a fight every day, as silly as it sounds, like like by all means was addicted to coffee and caffeine. Like every day I can have that conversation in my head and be like, I'm not gonna drink coffee today. I am not gonna do it. So it's it's you gotta face the harsh realities and then you gotta reframe it and put it in the context of how you're gonna deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

It's kind of like when an athlete has an injury. It's having the harsh reality of accepting it and not just trying to work around it or pretend that it's not real so that you can actually start to recover and reframe it in a sense where, well, this isn't gonna destroy me. It's gonna make me stronger, it's gonna make me better.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

How do you do deal with acceptance? That's one of the hardest things that I find to coach people, particularly like I like to use the analogy of like golf. Like Scottie Scheffler on whatever day that was, Monday in a playoff, missed like a three-foot putt that not only cost him the tournament, but like $500,000. That part of like acceptance is so hard to coach where it's like you have to you don't have to like it, but you have to accept it and not focus on the loss, right? But focus on like what's next. And so like, how do you deal with like that acceptance piece with yourself and even the people that you work with?

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Well, the biggest thing is I can't go back in time. I can't change the past, but I can change the future based on how I respond and how I perceive the past. So if I miss this huge putt, I can be like, dang, that sucked, and just kind of sit in my own feelings and not do anything with it and just feel bad for myself, which is only gonna hurt my performance moving forward. Or I can say, Well, it happens. Everybody has bad days, even the best people have bad days. Is there anything that I can do moving forward to prevent that from happening? Or was it just kind of a fluke? Sometimes that happens. Um, my husband is kind of the voice of reason a lot of times because I am definitely a chronic overthinker, as most people are, I feel like. But he always says, Well, can you control or can you change what you're thinking about? If you can't, cool, move forward and do something different. But if you can, then fix it.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

That what is the response you give to your husband when he says that?

SPEAKER_00 51:05

It's like, damn it, you're right. Every time it's it's like he's the voice of reason and he's always right and it's annoying, but you know, it is what it is. It's kind of like the person always makes you better, right? That's what he's all about.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Um, my wife likes to hit me with the stop preaching at me. I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Like I do the same to him though. So it's just like we're preaching back and forth to each other, and it's just like, I know you're right, but I hate that you're right.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

It's uh it's really funny in my house because my wife will be like, I know what you're doing. Like, because like, I mean, she knows what I do. So it's like I have to become super strategic in a way, like, where I'll do it to where she doesn't catch on immediately and I can get some nuggets in there before she's like, all right, I

Nutrition Fear Mongering Online

SPEAKER_01 51:44

get it. So now I I know you have an issue with fear mongering in the the health industry. Kind of give me some insight as like what fear mongering is going on that angers you and that is doing a disservice to people.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

There's a long rabbit hole we can go down here, but I'll keep it simple. The people, everybody's seen the video of the person standing in the grocery aisle and they're talking about this product that they're holding and how it's killing you because of the artificial sweeteners and this, this, and that. And they can't even quote any studies either. That's the funniest part. But they know, well, it's defined as rage bait, right? So they know it's gonna get clicks, they know it's gonna get views, it's gonna get likes, people are gonna share it, they're gonna save it. And I hate that because so many people come to me and they're like, well, this person said this, this person said this. Then what's the truth? Because if you scroll on social media, you'll find a post that says carbs are bad, and then scroll a little bit further and it says carbs are good. And everybody's just confused to the point where they don't actually take action and they overcomplicate something that's very simple, which is nutrition. Literally just eat whole foods and don't be afraid of eating things in moderation if you enjoy it. But so many people just are afraid of food because of what's spewed to them on social media. That's kind of one of the biggest reasons why I fell into an eating disorder was yes, there was a lot of stuff going on at home that made me fall into that control area. But also, it was kind of when social media started. And I would see people that said, Oh, well, don't eat fruit. Fruit has too much sugar. And I was getting into nutrition, so I didn't know better being 15 years old. But I was like, okay, I guess somebody on social media is saying so it must be true. And that's kind of how people look at things, but there's so much misinformation. It's actually wild the amount of things people send me.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

What is like for you? Like, how do you like follow your diet nutrition? Are you like super strict? Are you things in moderation? What does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 53:41

I am robotically strict with my nutrition, like so strict. It's actually really easy though for me because I've been doing it for so long and I truly enjoy everything that I eat. And I love eating foods that make me feel good. So that way I know, okay, well, this isn't gonna mess up my stomach. So I'm gonna have a good training session. I'm gonna feel good. I'm gonna have the most energy, I'm gonna sleep well. And I just love eating food. So if I can eat more whole natural food, that's gonna be less calorically valuable than like, you know, a processed food that might make me feel terrible. That's a win.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

One of my reframes that I I work with with even when I change up my own diets, where I'll go through like periods of really being really strict, like I'm currently in, versus times where I'm a little more a little more laissez-faire, eating healthy for the most part, but I'll indulge in some of the other sweets and things that I like, is when I start a hard diet, it's I no longer look at food as enjoyment and look at it as it's here to fuel me, it's here to serve me. Like this meal is not here to to taste like a you know a glazed donut from Krispy Kreme. It is here to allow me to perform and feel better. So when I wake up in the morning or when I'm going to, you know, bench press or jump or run, that I have energy and that I feel good and then I can give my kids and my wife the attention and love that they need and to really just reframe and reset the focus of well, why am I eating food in the first place? Oh, not because it tastes good. Sure, it's great when it tastes good, but because it's here to serve a purpose for me. That's that's how I reframed in my own life. And with any other new skill I'm developing, is like, why am I doing this? What is the purpose of this in really assigning it meeting to a greater whole?

SPEAKER_00 55:20

I think that's so important too, is to find purpose with everything you're doing. Just kind of like what I was saying earlier in finding purpose in the suffering. It's finding purpose in everything that you're doing. Because if there's no purpose to it, then why are you even doing it?

SPEAKER_01 55:32

That I like I make a uh a big distinction too between like purpose and meaning and like how I define words.

Purpose Meaning And Identity Labels

SPEAKER_01 55:39

So purpose, I always I say are very similar to goals, and meaning is very is very close to process, where meaning I attach to identity because once I reach the purpose, right? So like competition, I'm eating healthy for this competition. Now I served this purpose once I've completed the competition. Well, now I don't want to go back to zero, but now it's I eat healthy because I'm a healthy person, right? And that is the meaning that is gonna serve me greater beyond this goal or this purpose is I am becoming someone in something in doing this action. And this is aligned with the type of person that I want to be. This is gonna serve me way past this specific goal. And I do a lot of that when I work with draft prep guys, is you guys are locked in, you're going hard for the next two, three months to prepare for your pro days or the NFL combine. Well, what happens after the combine? Now we were just talking about it earlier. Okay, we hit the combine. Now it's what's next? Because it doesn't stop at the combine. Now it's hey, I got to make a roster. Now I got to become a starter. Now I got to become a Pro Bowler, an all-pro, a Super Bowl champion, go down the line. And it's you have to do it for greater than an individual purpose. It has to be a greater meaning to your individual life as to why you're doing something. And so that is like to me, the the beautiful marriage between purpose and meaning is purpose is gonna get you to a certain goal. And then the meeting is gonna the meaning is gonna keep you going past it.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

I like that. Yeah. I mean, purpose, purpose is something that everybody needs. I find that when people are anxious or they're depressed, then they're probably lacking purpose in what they're doing. And it doesn't mean that, oh, I don't know what my purpose in life is. It's not like it's something that's just gonna land on your lap or you're gonna like find like a piece of treasure. It's something that you create through what you actually want to build in your life. I feel like so many people, they think that they need to follow this specific template, whereas you're truly the artist that's painting this canvas and you can paint whatever you want on this canvas of your life. You don't have to follow a template like a color numbers type of game. But so many people are afraid to color outside the lines, and that might sound really cliche, but it's so true. Like if you just do the things that you want to do in life, regardless of the fear of failure, the fear of what other people might think, you're going to find the purpose that you're looking for.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

I love that. Uh, an analogy that I heard that I really liked is like stop looking for purpose and passion and start bringing purpose and passion to the things that you're doing. And then you may just strike fire. And that is something that I absolutely love in this conversation because it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Yeah, for sure. I have a question for you. What do you feel like? And this might be a big question, but you work with a lot of athletes and you work a lot on mindset, mental toughness.

Pro Mindset Without College Structure

SPEAKER_00 58:27

What do you feel like are some of the biggest things that athletes struggle with in their day-to-day?

SPEAKER_01 58:32

I think the, you know, honestly, I think a lot of it, particularly when you get to like the professional level. So, like at college levels, like a lot of things are structured for you. But when you become a professional, you're pretty much on your own. And people don't understand what it really requires to maintain what it means to be a professional. And so I think people really lack the behaviors and processes and systems to be able to do what is required. And so, like what I mean by that is like if you were a really good college football player, say you're a wide receiver, you know, you get drafted, whatever, in the second or third round, and now you're in an NFL building. Well, the relationship between coach and player is very different. And so, college players or college coaches are on you. They're on your schedule. They set your schedule for you. You have to be here practice by here. We're cooking your meals for you here. You have your training recovery here, you have your class schedule here, and we're gonna hand walk you through all this because you are really important to us winning. Well, when you get to the NFL or professional status, yes, certainly you're really important to them winning, but they can replace you like that. It's really not that hard. They can go out, they can cut you, they can pick out someone out, and they can get you. So they really don't care. They're not there to handhold you. You're a professional. And so most people really just actually don't understand the behavior patterns that are required. And so then when they get into these practices or the games and they feel the all the pressure, it's because they haven't earned the right to succeed. They haven't built the evidence that they need to have confidence and conviction. And so, really, a lot of the biggest thing I do with identity is like actually help athletes build out the behaviors that are, you know, a prerequisite for succeeding in sport. And so, like, that's actually one of the biggest things I see is like, and you can what's downstream from not building the behaviors is like, you know, fear of the moment, right? The, you know, fear of failure. It's not really the fear of failure, it's the fear of perception of failure. You know, very, I would say quarterbacks, probably more than others, have like that fear of success. Like, well, if I do succeed, what comes with the pressure and expectations? That's usually like a contract. When you get the contract, it's well, now I have expectations, like, how do I deal with that? Uh, but for the most part, it's most people just are kind of just because they're so naturally gifted, are flying by the seat of their pants and they don't have the behavioral patterns necessary. It's a long-winded answer. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

Yeah, I know that was a good answer though. I I feel like when people start a business or when they start something, it's because they see a gap and they're trying to fill it or they have a they see a problem and they're trying to be the solution to that problem. So was this something that you struggled with, or like what led you to create what you're currently

Building Athletic Fortitude From Pain

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

building?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Yeah, absolutely. So I always say like my what I built was for 15 to 23-year-old Colin. And the 23-year-old Colin when my football career ended was the one that like felt it the heaviest. And so when I lost my sport, and I've said it a million times, but it's like a PCU dies that day. And like I always say, like athletes die twice. They die when their career ends, and they die when you know God calls them. And what I didn't realize over the period of my life, because I, as I told you, I've had so many injuries, but every single time I was hurt and I was away from sport, it was that same feeling, just to a lesser degree, of when my career ended. It was, do I matter to my teammates? Do I matter to my coaches? And all that was created in my mind. Of course I mattered to my teammates and my coaches. They didn't care, they still love me. But in my own mind, it was, I don't have worth because I'm not on that field contributing. I'm away from my sport. That's the only thing that I feel that I'm good at, where I have conviction in. And anytime I'm not out there on that field, I feel like I don't have worth as a person. And for me, it's like I created everything for that space because what's really hard is when like you don't have conviction in who you are, it's hard to actually go out and perform because every loss feels like it's an attack on who you are, the person. And so that's why I created everything in my space was after I went through what I went through. I talked to a lot of people who experienced the same thing, going back to, hey, you don't have to suffer alone. So many different athletes went through that same process and period. And so for me, that's what I just went in. I was like, I have to solve what I went through because one, I I still struggle with it. And two, I know an infinite number of athletes that are going through the exact same process.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

So, did it take a while for you to work on it yourself? Or are you kind of you said you still struggle with it today, right? But obviously you're stronger. But is it something that you've also every single day you're kind of working on as you help other people too?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

Oh, certainly. A hundred percent every, like every to and you talk about overthinking. I'm like, I call myself like a chronic overthinker, but like literally like every second of every decision that I'm going through, I am reframing in the lens of identity within my own story. And so, like the process, I would say, like where I went from feeling lost to like, hey, I feel relatively convicted, wasn't astronomically far. Like it's it took me about three months, right? And that's like three months of like dedicated, like pouring effort and energy into my behaviors and reflection on those behaviors that earned the identity I wanted. Took me about three months where I had pretty strong conviction of like my relative values and characteristics that I wanted to embody. And then that progressed into developing labels for myself. But it is a work in progress every single day. You know, there's times where I'm training and it makes me feel like an athlete again. And then when I tweak a muscle and I can't train again, I fall into that same pattern. I just have to get myself out of it quicker. It's like, hey, your self-worth isn't tied to your box jump calling. Like, as silly as that sounds, right? Like, that's when I feel free. That's when I feel powerful, is when I can jump and run. And when those things get taken from me, I have to, again, enter that cycle of the communication and the levers that I pull to get me out of it. So it's always a day-to-day thing, but I have significantly more conviction in who I am today than obviously who I did, you know, seven years ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

Yeah. And that's that's the work that a lot of people aren't willing to do is that tough internal work, like to change the internal dialogue in order to make your life better. A lot of people just bury it down and hope that it goes away, like all those bad feelings that they have about themselves. But unless you actually process things and work on them, they're always going to be there.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

But yes, if you don't, like again, like mental toughness, right? Like where I'm big is like like solve the problem. Like, you know, create solutions. It's not about, you know, this is not a knock on this because a lot of people use this and it works for them. But like, it's not about meditation. It's not about breath work, it's not about, you know, visualization. Now, those are levers that you can certainly use and are really helpful. But I think people get the wrong perception of like what it is to like be mentally tough. Like, to me, it's as simple as how do you handle adversity and are you fixing the problems in your life and in your sport? If if you, if you are tackling those things head on, and whatever processes and systems you use is perfectly fine. But don't think it's like this, you know, like a you know, kind of like positive poly, like foo foo thing. It's no, like if you're mentally tough, like you know how to address your problems, you know how to solve them, you know how to handle adversity, and you know how to. Bring your best self when it's the hardest. Like it's that simple.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

Yeah. I mean, it's it's like the person who's screaming affirmations at themselves in the mirror, but not doing anything with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

Like action is the only thing that's going to move you forward, not talking to yourself, while that could help you take action for certain people. If you're not actually taking action, then nothing changes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Yes. And that's like the identity piece is to drive action. Identity drives behavior, behavior drives performance. That's exactly like that's like the relative framework and it replaced performance with life or fulfillment, but identity drives behavior. And that's the most important thing is the behavior. If we can get the behavior right, everything downstream from there, and it's that cyclical nature.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Yeah. It's like, you know, I've been a nutrition and fitness coach for 14 years now. And the biggest thing is habits and behaviors. People want to think that it's this specific diet or the specific workout program that's going to make them better, but it's all about your habits and behaviors. Doesn't matter if I created you the perfect plan, even if that doesn't actually exist. It the the perfect plan is the one that you're gonna actually stick to and the one that's actually gonna help you change your habits and behaviors to reflect the person that you want to become.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

Yes. Spot on. I could not have, I could not have said that better myself. Um got any other questions for me?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

I think the last question I have for you is what is your ultimate goal with athletic fortitude?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

That's a good question. I think that's something where, you know, I go back and forth with too. Number one is like the podcast itself. I love podcasting. I love meeting new people, love having these conversations. So I just want to grow the podcast as high as I possibly can. From like a tangible consulting perspective, you know, I I want to be able to work with the not the best, but the most driven athletes in teams, right? The people who care the most. And that's like a, you know, uh definition that you want to work with with who cares, how do you measure that? But the people who have the highest agency that are willing to commit their life, their soul, and their craft to becoming who they want to be and elevating their performances the highest level possible. And so people mistake just because there's players or teams at the highest level, they're not all up, they don't all operate within that window. And so I don't want to work with those people. I just want to work with the people who are truly committed to being the the best versions of themselves and performers that they can possibly be. And so I don't care if you're high school, college, professional, I want to work with the teams who are truly committed to their craft.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:30

I feel that. I feel that because you know, when I have clients who aren't committed, it I fire, I've fired clients in the past. Like, you want to pay me? Cool, but I need you to actually commit.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

Yes. No, it's it's the worst thing in the world when you have someone who doesn't want to commit. So I'm with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

But amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Hey, I I appreciate you, Caitlin. It's been a blast to to have you on, get to know you a little bit more. If my listeners want to reach out to you or if you have anything that you're working on and want to promote, please take the the next minute or so to tell us what's

Where To Find Caitlin And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram and TikTok at Caitlin Kenna Fitness. And then you can find my podcast on Spotify and Apple and YouTube, uh, the Powerhouse Mentality. You can also find me on Instagram at the Powerhouse Journal, which is where I help to help people navigate the bullshit of the industry and help them break down supplements, energy drinks, nutrition fitness, and help them overcome that fear mongering. So that's what I got.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:22

I love it. Thank you so much for coming on today. Listeners, thank you for tuning in. Tune in next week. Check us out, athleticforteshoot.com, download the pod, subscribe to our YouTube channel, Lifestyles Only Baby. Appreciate you. Thank you for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

Awesome. Thank you for having me.